Unpacking Pope Leo XIV's New Encyclical | Katie McGrady

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[00:00:00]How do you do friends?

[00:00:01]This is Matthew Shull and you're listening to episode 119 of the Popecast, a history of the papacy, the only podcast about Popes where you'll find non-boring stories on the successors of St. Peter and a reminder that all the world's problems have happened plenty of times before just maybe in different forms because this week we are talking with friend of the show, the original guest of the Popecast, Katie McGrady to unpack Pope Leo's brand new encyclical the the so-called AI encyclical Magnifica Humanitatis but it's just about so much more. It's got so much more richness to it but the gist of the show being what it is, that all the world's problems have happened plenty of times before. The problems stay the same, the forms that the problems take continue to be ever new. So it's fitting somehow that Pope Leo has written about AI in large part but more specifically uh the human response what the human response ought to be for it. So I think you're really in in for a great show today.

[00:01:00]For uh a refresher, Katie gets into a little bit more of her background but she's a a host on SiriusXM every day the Katie McGrady Show. She also hosts Ave Explores for Ave Maria Press uh has written several books um has a substack blog a substack blog, Instagram, Twitter. I'm sure if you've been on social media you've probably seen her work. She's incredibly prolific, a great commentator on on the life of the church and then more recently in the last couple of years has been the Vatican analyst for CNN. So she's kind of branched into this uh secular sphere being able to intelligently articulate the truths of Catholicism instead of the caricatures that we so often see in mainstream media. So we get into all that and then her impressions on the on the encyclical and so much more. So really hope you enjoy that. A quick thank you to all of the new subscribers.

[00:01:50]We've had several uh just even since last week when our episode with Jonathan Liedl was released. If you haven't caught that episode yet, please go back and listen to that. Uh Pope Leo's Peru, I think it was a fitting release right before this encyclical because it shows the kind of priest and bishop that Pope Leo was formed as leading to his his now service in in the chair of St. Peter and writing this this great document. So, thank you to all the people who have subscribed since then, who caught that and have have given great feedback. If you haven't already, make sure you subscribe on YouTube, subscribe Spotify, iTunes, wherever you get your podcast. Um leave a comment with what you like. We always like to hear what people like. And if you'd like to stay up to date and then if you also like to support the show, you can subscribe for free, but there's an option to give a monetary gift. You can go to popes.substack.com and I think that's actually also the easiest way to get in touch with me for feedback about the show, guests you'd like to see on, topics you'd like to see cover covered. And I know we've had a string of longer form interviews. I always love doing those. I always love hearing from our guests, but I do promise we will get back to the papal bios. So, for all the OGs out there who have been listening to the Pope cast for a very long time and were dyed-in-the-wool, loved the papal bios, we will be getting back to those. Don't worry.

[00:03:12]So, we thank you for being here and hope you enjoy the show with Katie McGrady.

[00:03:20]>> [music] >> Welcome back to the Pope cast.

[00:03:37]This week we are joined by our first ever guest on the Pope cast 8 years later.

[00:03:44]Um Katie McGrady, who has seems like you've been all over the world talking about Pope Leo for the last year and then now I thought it would be appropriate um and I'm glad you agreed to get back together and talk about a new fresh document released by the Pope.

[00:03:59]This time it's Pope Leo the 14th and I think you probably have the best shirt of any guest. Yes. [laughter] Yeah, so if anyone was just listening to the audio Yeah, if anyone was just listening to the audio version, you have to go at least find the video version so you can see Katie's shirt. Has Pope Leo with an American flag behind it. So, yeah, Katie McGrady, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks. Thanks. I bought this shirt cuz we threw a Pope party on to celebrate his one-year anniversary. I feel like we're not going to get another American Pope. This is our one shot, guys. And so we're throwing out like we're doing hot dogs and fireworks May 8th from here until the end of time. And I bought this My husband and I have matching shirts. Actually, I think his His says team Leo or team Pope Leo or something like that. Um we will not be wearing them to Rome. I will not subject the Italians to this by any means. But I have it. I'll have it in my suitcase.

[00:04:48]Maybe I'll wear it as like a sleep shirt. Yeah. I I feel like there has to be at least one outing where [clears throat] you walk around with it just to see just to test. Maybe just to walk around the block or >> We have socks. So, our good friends at Sockreligious, they have the American uh Leo socks, which Pope Leo was given I gave him a pair of those. So, we all have those. So, I'm like, what day do we wear those? It'll be a day where we're all in pants so that we're not again the weird American tourist with like Leo on the side of our ankles. But I also It's not People are like, here's how to blend in as an Italian tourist. I'm like, no, you're an You're a tourist. They depend upon your business. Just don't be a jerk. They already know you're American.

[00:05:27]Just be a good American and we're fine, you know? Yeah, nice. When are you going?

[00:05:32]We leave on um Monday, June 1. We'll meet Leo June 3rd. He leaves for Spain I think June 6th. So, he's actually going to be gone the majority of the time that we're there.

[00:05:44]But we're doing it up. We're going to Borgo La Dato Z uh with Father Manny. It's it's our our delayed We were supposed to go for Carlos' canonization.

[00:05:52]Um which of course got pushed. And then we were going to go at the end of the Jubilee Year, and then flights were insanely expensive. And so I said, "Guys, let's go in June. The Pope doesn't go on vacation in June." And then now the Pope's going to Spain, which is probably for the best cuz I think maybe it'll be a little less busy around certain parts of of the Vatican, especially. So, I I realized as I was packing my girls that it is a great privilege to get to bring our kids to Rome, and that I'm like calling in all the favors to get to do like really cool special things. But the really special part of this trip is my parents are coming with us. And my mom and dad have been to Rome a couple of times, but that was long before my career is what it is now. So, like now I get to do Rome with like meet this cardinal, or let's go have dinner at this place, or you know, I kind of get to show off a little bit for my mom and dad.

[00:06:38]Yeah, that's amazing. There's no better reason to cash in the favors than when your favorite people are with you. It's Yeah, it's fun when it's by when you're by yourself, you can maybe move a little quicker or something like that. Well, that's Yeah, that's amazing. Um the Spain thing, I find it really funny and uh maybe a key feature of the Pope or of the good Popes is that the slightly subversive things, cuz didn't he just honor several martyrs of the Spanish Civil War right before he goes to Spain? And I feel like he's kind of done that to America a little bit, maybe to Yeah, make the other side a little more annoyed, whatever you want to call it that, but Well, the news this morning uh was that he might be going to Uruguay during November.

[00:07:19]And of course would include a pop over, I think, to Peru and to Argentina. And if he did that during Thanksgiving, I don't think any of us have been snubbed by any way, shape, or form. The Pope not coming in your 250 is not the snub that some would interpret it as.

[00:07:34]But if he was like that close >> [laughter] >> at Thanksgiving and not pop in for some turkey, I have a feeling at least his brother might be a little annoyed.

[00:07:44]All right.

[00:07:45]Yeah, but if you're that close to Florida, right?

[00:07:47]>> [snorts] >> Yeah, nice. Well, that's great. So, before we get into it, just a quick refresher on who you are, what you what you do day in and day out, just a quick overview of your background, and then we can get into the Magnificat Humanitatis. Yeah, so I'm Katie McGrady. I I work in Catholic media. I host a daily radio show on SiriusXM's The Catholic Channel. I've been doing that for the past 5 years. I have a couple of different podcasts with a couple of different apostolates, Ave Maria Press, and Halo. I've written I've written six books, four of them with my husband, and then I most recently, kind of my credentials, I guess, for this conversation is I've collaborated with the Dicastery for Communications on a lot of digital mission stuff. I spoke at the Jubilee for Digital Influencers last year.

[00:08:31]That's where my Vatican connections are.

[00:08:33]And I was a CNN Vatican analyst am, but I covered the conclave. I was their in-house analyst in Washington, D.C.

[00:08:39]during the conclave, which I wasn't in Rome for white smoke, but I was on TV when the white smoke hit, so that's like my my one claim to fame.

[00:08:47]Um, and really, like, I I it's a huge privilege to be CNN's Catholic gal who gets called in to give commentary on, "Okay, this is what this means, and this is what that means." And yesterday was a big encyclical day. I think I said an encyclical is a letter probably a thousand different times in a thousand different ways. But it was really cool to We're in a moment where I think our our media culture, especially secular media, is engaging with the Vatican and the person of the Pope more than we ever really have before.

[00:09:19]Even Francis, who I think had a lot of of goodwill given to him from secular media because of his approachability and his style, he didn't get the same kind of newsy coverage that Leo gets. And it's it's the language, it's the English, certainly, it's the Americanism, certainly. I also think it's just the age in which we live with our algorithms. So, it's been it's been a great privilege to be just kind of on call for secular media to be able to talk about the Pope. I would say my goal is always to lovingly talk about the Pope, to show, you know, a daughter's devotion to the Holy Father, but to also be a a normal Catholic voice. Like, let's explain this normally, right? Like, we're not as we were we we are weird enough. We don't have to be any weirder than we already are. But, it's also really cool to see people engage So, I always like to tell people um do you know who they love the most at CNN?

[00:10:10]Like, the saint that they are obsessed with over there is Carlo Acutis. Like, there are different people at CNN that have like little second-class relics of Carlo that I gave them.

[00:10:18]Um because they just love the millennial saint. And like, they covered him extensively. They covered his canonization mass. Like, we were live for that. So, so that's Some people will criticize working with secular media. I will say that is a mission field all its own. Yeah. I mean, I can't help but agree. I've said multiple times that I'm for an aggressively normal Catholicism. Like, don't be a weirdo about it. Like, there's enough weirdos. Just this is weird enough. Just putting his face on a t-shirt is weird enough. Right. Yeah.

[00:10:43]But, to be yeah, a young person younger person, I guess we're now in our 30s, but yeah, younger person who is like, yeah, likes Catholicism. I think what was it Matt Maher?

[00:10:55]When he played in Rio, he said it's great to love say you love Jesus, but to say you love Jesus and you love the church, that's something that people kind of tune in for. What's I'm interested I'm curious what's something that stands out for like an unexpected fruit? I mean, obviously getting to cover the Pope is really cool. Getting to be on CNN is really cool. What's kind of an unexpected fruit from that this last year of doing that particular ministry? Yeah, of getting to talk about Leo in this way or even just like explaining things in the in the secular media. You know, one of the real distinct fruits is I've I've gotten to know some of the the faces and voices that you see on secular media just personally, like as friends. And a lot of them are Catholic and a lot of them are actually very Catholic curious and like will have off-screen conversations where we're just like either answering questions about church stuff or like you know, they're they're very touched or moved by just like what a normal Catholic life looks like, which a lot of a lot of my content has kind of shifted towards the very newsy, but I still talk about my kids, I still talk about Catholic education, I'm still talking about how we're discerning, you know, X Y or Z within our family life. And so there's been real authentic relationships with people on camera and and the producing world behind the scenes of just like, "Oh, I was raised Catholic." And I'll tell me why you left or you know, I've I've always thought about coming home to the church like language that they use, not not me imposing. It's just being that, you know, yeah, your normal Catholic voice.

[00:12:23]I'll never forget so in the run-up to the conclave we covered of course all of Francis's funeral.

[00:12:30]And it's in Rome, so that's 7 hours ahead, 6 hours East Coast time. So, like I'm living on a completely different schedule and going in and out of the green room and I got to know this guy Max who was there he was just like the desk attendant. Um so, he's an intern, he's a grunt, he's got a horrible 12-hour schedule where he's basically just greeting guests, putting microphones on us in flash studios and like getting us a cup of coffee.

[00:12:51]And it was so the weekend of funerals of Francis's funeral was the um the Correspondents Dinner last year. And so, like the A team wasn't really around because they were all at the Correspondents Dinner. And so, this guy got stuck like literally taking care of me because I was the in-house guest while we were covering Francis's funeral and then like some news throughout the rest of the day.

[00:13:13]And we so we visit like he had nobody to talk to. So, we talked a lot and have a really great conversational relationship about church stuff even now. And he doesn't work there anymore. He's since moved on and got himself like a much better paying job. But like that was a real distinct fruit of huh like he was raised Catholic. Our first thing that we talked about wasn't even church stuff.

[00:13:32]It was the Masters.

[00:13:34]Oh, nice. Yeah.

[00:13:36]>> He couldn't comprehend So like of course we talked a lot about how they don't bring cell phones into the conclave.

[00:13:41]Like they're they're not supposed to. We now know that like one guy accidentally kept one in his pocket but You know, it's like they're cut off from the outside world. Um there's a scrambler in the square. Like you can't even really get a tweet out. And he was like how he said this reminds me of the Masters.

[00:13:54]Like you can't have your phone at the Masters. It's like those are the last two things in culture where like you can't have your phone.

[00:14:00]And then we talked about how the phones are killing all of us and it led to this beautiful conversation. I never said the words the church is the one true faith.

[00:14:08]Like I never looked at him and said you have to convert to get to heaven. But like that still comes across in the conversation. So that's been the best part. That's why I still keep showing up at odd hours on CNN. Yeah.

[00:14:21]Man, that's incredible. I So I've I've been a golfer my whole life and it's never It's never occurred to me that to to pair those two but you've probably heard the tagline a tradition unlike any other. Yeah. It's what they say about the Masters. That's what they say about it. Yeah. There's some depths to plumb there but that's probably for another day. Yeah, thanks for sharing. That's That's great. Okay, so the main reason we got together to chat today is Yeah, obviously you already mentioned it Pope and I'm sure unless you live under a rock you probably heard something about it.

[00:14:50]Um Pope Leo releases very first encyclical that's all his own Magnificat Humanitatis. So um you said I've I've seen you tweet and write and speak a couple different or a few different areas that you've read it four or five times now. Mhm. Um yeah, you had it over the weekend which is super exciting to see kind of digest it before the world saw it which is really cool.

[00:15:12]Um so I'm we can get into any number of avenues cuz it's amazing on a number of fronts.

[00:15:19]But what were kind of your first impressions of it as you read through it, knowing what you know of Pope Leo?

[00:15:23]Mhm.

[00:15:25]Yeah, I so I got the embargoed copy, which was a huge privilege, and I I want to make a a note of this cuz there's been a lot of conversation in like the content creation space about like, "Oh, you're not supposed to have hot takes about an encyclical."

[00:15:39]If the Vatican didn't want us to have hot takes about the encyclical, they wouldn't have given it to a collection of people early. Because the medium is the message, we know that. Uh it's why this particular encyclical was launched with a trailer video, uh collaboration between EWTN and the Pontifical uh the Dicastery for Integral Human Development. Like they wanted this to be a point of conversation as it was being presented, and as it was So those of us who got embargoed copies and and were thinking very deeply about the think pieces that we were going to put out, it was the Vatican asking us to be ready to talk about it. And that I think stands out to me because later on in the document when Pope Leo talks about truth in the media, and he talks about these digital cultures in which we're steeped, that can hurt us.

[00:16:23]He also talks about like this need for clarity in those spaces, and this this desire to engage with the person, not just a collection of ideas. And so I I I read through it, recognizing the privilege of having the embargoed copy. First time through, I think it's important to just if you if you're if you're looking for like how to read an encyclical, you read it the first time through without a highlighter in your hand. Just read it. Like read it at a normal reading pace.

[00:16:48]And yes, you're going to miss some things, and there's going to be you're going to be like, "Wait, what did he just say?" And you might have to like read it again for like a second or third moment of comprehension, but don't read it the first time through with a highlighter. And so that's how I read it, I just read it. And I I was, you know, working off of of my embargoed Google Doc.

[00:17:02]And then I got it as a PDF that I was able to put onto my remarkable tablet.

[00:17:05]So then I read it a second time through with my highlighter.

[00:17:08]And it's kind of funny to see like what did I highlight in yellow, what was I highlighting in orange and pink to try to like clarify, cuz cuz Leo writes in a very ABC style. He's very mathematical in this precision of like if this then this and therefore and I really appreciate that. So the second time through with the highlighter, the third time through I just read it one more time and like took some little annotated notes on the side like let's talk about this. Oh, here's a reference. Oh, he's given us a reading list like Leo basically told us read the encyclical while listening to Beethoven's 9th Symphony and maybe go watch Schindler's List that night and then put yourself to bed with a slight reading of Tolkien, right? Like we got kind of this beautiful engagement with culture that seemingly matters to him. But the thing that stood out to me to answer your question, really at the heart of it, the thing that kept coming up into my mind was that Leo is reminding us of something that is very easy to lose, which is sight of the human face and the human heart. And the word heart is not talked about a ton. I mean it he uses the word heart and like the the heart of the core of the person, but he talks a lot more about the face and encountering the face and encountering the person that's right in front of us and standing in solidarity and and working through the paths of subsidiarity and justice and acknowledging that we are not cogs in the machine. We are our dignified made in God's image and likeness called to relationship with God and one another.

[00:18:23]It's not an AI encyclical. It is about AI more than any other document ever has been, but the stuff that he actually says about AI in in particular, he's referencing other AI documents from the church's tradition. So he is much more concerned about his original voice talking about the heart of the human person and the face of the human person.

[00:18:44]Mhm. And it reminds I said this on my show this morning. It reminds me a little bit of Mufasa talking to Sim remember remember who you are. Like that millennial line was in my head that I think this is a pope screaming at the world or very gently guiding the world more more likely to remember who we are in the eyes of God so that we then treat one another with that love that only we can can treat one another with. A machine cannot love you, a human can. A machine cannot suffer with you, a human can. AI cannot truly know. It can It can know, but it can't truly know.

[00:19:20]And so, I I that it is beautiful. Just read it. And then study it, and then note take through it, and then debate it.

[00:19:29]But it it's the shepherd's It's the shepherd's guiding uh us through this rocky terrain. Yeah, that's beautiful. I mean, more than anything it seems like that's that's a pope's job. Obviously, to take care of the Catholics, but just as any priest is not just responsible for the priest or for the people in his parish building, but in his parish boundaries, no matter what religion they are. It's like the pope the pope takes on this Any good one anyways, um thankfully we've had lots of good ones for the last century. But the that idea kind of came to mind um the pope issuing a like prophetic warning, here's what's going to happen if we don't do these things, which echoes Leo the 13th. Here's what's going to happen if we don't give dignity to the rights of workers. Paul the VI in Humanae Vitae, here's what's going to happen if we don't Mhm.

[00:20:17]>> remember the What did he say? Remember the the equilibrium required of of a woman or like all these things. Like four prophetic things in Humanae Vitae, and then here's Leo again. Mhm.

[00:20:28]>> the trads would like me to say Pius X against modernism or whatever. Which he references all those things. That's the whole first I mean, the first How many paragraphs is it? Let's look at it. Like the first So, the first 90 paragraphs of this thing are a walk through history. And he cites every pope except JP1, who doesn't really give us anything in the tradition, God rest his soul. But like And some people will skip that, and they'll just jump straight to the AI section. But again, if he's doing ABC, he lays out the history and teaches us a social doctrine of the church that is not isolated from itself. Like from the moment it was given to us, and then has been con- continuously explored. And encyclicals are not a period at the end of a sentence. They're the start of the sentence. They're the start of the conversation. And and he's starting it.

[00:21:16]Yeah, I really liked it was kind of deft how he explained this is not it's not linear.

[00:21:23]What he's doing is a continuation of prior popes. It's not linear necessarily.

[00:21:29]And it's kind of taking a couple steps back or going a couple steps to the side cuz there's been you know, verbose encyclicals. One that didn't really land, one that you know, ended up not being as important as others. I really liked how he how he kind of yeah, gave a nod to that continuity. Mhm.

[00:21:46]>> But then is saying something still new in the same sense. Was it the um reading the signs of the times when I don't know where society got its wires crossed, but people said, "Oh, we need to get with the times." But that's never been the thing. It's been read and interpret the signs of the times and then reapply what the church has taught for forever in any way. Yeah.

[00:22:08]>> I I the when Francis died, my bishop gave a homily in our diocese about um the the comfort of the continuity of the papacy. And that like even in grief we know that in 3 weeks we'll be rejoicing.

[00:22:23]And I think encyclicals which we nerd out about and and sometimes like in this moment they kind of get a fair shake in Catholic and secular circles are an opportunity for a pope to show his own personality and mind and also remind us, but I'm one of many.

[00:22:43]Like as much as we love Leo in this moment and I say this with great affection for the Holy Father, he won't be our last pope. He might be our last American pope. I don't know.

[00:22:51]Again, my joke is I don't think they'll ever let us do this again.

[00:22:54]Um although the people are paying attention to him maybe more than they ever have before I think because of of some of that. But he is one among the ranks and even he knows that.

[00:23:04]And so, he's appealing as a shepherd and a father while also saying, "And these other shepherds and these other fathers have also spoken to you of some of these things before." You know, like I I was playing a a little mind game with myself, like when when Rerum Novarum came out in 1891, which he had he kind of like historically Leo the 13th, he didn't have to be cajoled into writing it. But, like he'd been concerned about the things for a while Mhm. before he finally wrote the document. And it was it was kind of in the middle. Like, he still had quite a few years after that, and he he'd done quite a few things before. So, it took him a minute.

[00:23:37]And Cardinal Czerny said something in an interview on CNN International yesterday. He was like, "Can you imagine if Leo the 13th had like talked to the factory workers?

[00:23:44]Like, if he'd listened and dialogued to the factory workers before he wrote it?"

[00:23:47]Like, he got it right. Like, he said exactly what needed to be said. But, would it have been even more potent had he had he been able to quote some of those children who'd been forced into unjust labor? Or had he been able to like engage with parents who were suffering because they couldn't earn a living wage to support their family, right? Like Like, it was it was a I I never really thought about that.

[00:24:08]And it's like, and now Leo is in dialogue because that is a a beautiful development of how our church operates.

[00:24:14]And and and that dialogue I think is very much something that Francis encouraged. And like, that dialogue wouldn't have happened if JP2 had not been I think as much of a of a traveler and a globetrotter, like putting the Pope among the people. And then, the intellectual tradition of like taking what we experience and then praying our way through the virtues of faith, hope, and charity. Like, thank God Benedict the 16th was a little more landlocked because of his age.

[00:24:38]You can't read any of them isolated.

[00:24:40]But, at the same time, they each all stand on their own, if that makes sense.

[00:24:43]Yeah. That's really interesting cuz I mean, back to the history of the papacy really out of necessity, the Pope was the the man who became Pope time and time again was somebody who showed intelligence in a younger age, his parents said, "Oh, you need to go to this monastery. You need to live there forever and be put in charge of the monastery, and then you get sent to Rome, and the Pope catches your you catch the Pope's eye, and then he puts you to work, and then you just kind of it's a natural progression up the ranks.

[00:25:14]>> Yeah, even until you could argue until JP2. Yeah.

[00:25:18]>> It was like, "Oh, we Yeah, we found a Pope from the ends of the earth, and then now here we have two Popes in a row from the Western Hemisphere.

[00:25:25]So, you have Yeah, Leo the 13th never worked in a factory, but if we're talking about using technology, Pope Leo was kind of our first tech-savvy Pope. So, he's one Yeah, who who understands maybe lurking on all of us online from time to time, who knows.

[00:25:41]>> all I'm saying is I made a joke about how the Pope's encyclical was not late because the Pope is never late. He arrives precisely when he means to, which is a joke about Gandalf, and then who is quoted but Gandalf. And my husband turned to me and he went, "Do you think he has a burner?" And I went, "I don't know. I think Bob might have a burner." And I may I plan on asking him No, I don't I'm not going to ask him if he follows me on Twitter. I'm going to ask him who he subscribes to for his news. That's what I really want to know. Off the record, Leo, who you're reading.

[00:26:12]Yeah, like it it Look, we we're we're geeks. We're going to get excited about this stuff.

[00:26:19]I think the Holy Father could have just jumped straight to safeguard. Mhm.

[00:26:27]And he went we've actually been doing that for a long time, guys. And I want to tell you about how we've been safeguarding and guiding so that you know I'm not pulling this out of my hat, but I'm pulling this out of the the hats that have been worn before me, too. And I I found that to be very professorial, but also very pastoral. Um and and also, you know, uh perhaps a bit uh it was very very smart to do that cuz he can't be accused of writing just his own thoughts. Right.

[00:26:53]Yeah.

[00:26:54]I mean, I wonder how much of this is maybe a a grace of the Holy Spirit. I mean, I feel I I experience this in obviously way smaller ways from being oh, this situation in life came up and there's been all these little signposts over the last, you know, 5, 10, 15 years that have kind of all been leading up to this I can't even think of an example, but thing you know, Pope Leo gets elected the Pope and he picks the name Leo somewhat spontaneously. At least as far as all of us are concerned like oh, Leo, wow, that kind of came out of nowhere. Now it makes a lot of sense that he's showing this continuity this like re-upping of Rerum Novarum but for the technological age.

[00:27:34]I don't know, do you have any insight or thoughts on how how long has he been mulling this sort of thing versus how much was kind of a like a the Lord putting it on his on his heart and his mind after he got elected Yeah.

[00:27:48]>> say okay, what's what am I going to be about as the Pope? I'll say the the most Catholic answer. I think it's a both and. I definitely think So there's there's the some stories have emerged from the conclave that it was becoming quite evident on the morning that he was elected that it he was not that far off from the correct number of votes needed. Um and in fact got like well above the minimum required. And so they went back for their lunch and and afternoon early afternoon break and he supposedly started writing some of his remarks. And so and that wasn't like a presumptuousness.

[00:28:20]It the man is very intentional. That's why he had his notes in front of him and then it took so stinking long cuz his brother didn't answer the phone. So like we know some of the very human elements of this. Um but I think so I don't think it caught him off guard when he said yes and said I accept and then shared his name.

[00:28:37]I don't think he walked into the conclave thinking I will be the next Leo the 14th. But but I we have those clips of him he was he was interviewed on that rooftop overlooking St. Peter's talking a little bit about the media consumption of the world today. He gave that that talk. He was in that talk back at that parish in Chicago where we've got the clips of him talking about fake news in the information age. We know that he was active on Twitter before he was Pope. And then that that account disappeared real quick. Like they scrubbed the internet. Somebody got on the horn and called X and was like, get rid of it. Like we don't need proof of of any sort of former digital footprint. And so I don't think he's a he's not a Luddite, right? Like he understands this world and I think that that would have certainly been in his mind and on his heart. Two days in, he tells the Cardinals, "This is why I chose the name." So like certainly he he could have just pulled that out of a hat or it was percolating in the background. But I'm glad you mentioned the grace of the papacy because anybody else writing a document about AI comes out Antiqua Nova, which is a great church document. Like I'm super grateful we have that from a dicastery, but it is an academic treatment of the church's perspective on artificial intelligence.

[00:29:49]>> Mhm.

[00:29:50]And so sure, he might have had some academic opinions about AI and about humanity before he became Leo.

[00:29:57]But name change, identity change, job change, heart change, it's now going to come from that heart of a shepherd and a father and not just as an articulated treatment of a topic. And that I think is the difference. You can tell in any encyclical Okay, here's the psycho babble. Like here's some of the talking points that were maybe put into a Google Doc for version number one.

[00:30:22]From what my sources have told me, right? Like a an encyclical is it to some point written in committee and then in the hands of the Holy Father, he adds in his spiritual exhortations and and emphasis. I was told point blank, this was not written in committee.

[00:30:39]That this was Leo.

[00:30:41]And that certainly he listened to his advisers, various things were brought to him to to strengthen perhaps some of those data points where he talks about this or that particular thing. Obviously he's drawing on the tradition of other elements of the church, but that this was the hand of Leo and the heart of Leo and that even the stuff that had to be edited he had a very heavy hand in the editing. Like the man read it with a red pen. And I was actually really comforted to hear that because I think you can read some encyclicals and and I won't call any particular Pope out, but you can read some encyclicals and you're like, "Oh, this was written at that dicastery and then we slapped your name on the bottom of it."

[00:31:14]>> [clears throat] >> And that was not this document at all.

[00:31:17]There might be a couple of paragraphs in there where you're like, "Okay, like you had a conversation with a guy in a room who really wanted you to say this."

[00:31:24]But then you still chose to say it, so I'm going to shut up and listen, right?

[00:31:27]And and then you can also like I feel like I can see him sitting at Castel Gandolfo on a Tuesday writing his reflection on the Magnificat at the end.

[00:31:36]Mhm. Because like that truly came from a place of prayer on like yeah, Mary, her entire world was changing, but she remained steadfast. And so you, humans of this changing world, you too can remain steadfast. Like that is the grace of the papacy being able to speak as a shepherd and father to the world. Yeah.

[00:31:54]That's a good segue. Yeah, cuz that's that's so beautiful. I agree. It's I was really struck by I love the part in the catechism about chastity which I find hilarious that like non-Catholics always think, "Oh, chastity means abstinence." But of course it's a way more than that. Every person is called to chat You know, the whole thing. I Have you read through that recently?

[00:32:15]Not not recently, no. I I wish I had more time in my catechism. I'll I'll go use Magisterium AI to update me.

[00:32:22]>> [laughter] >> My favorite of the AIs. Yes, I think my friend Dave Hazen, shout out Dave Hazen, I think would appreciate that cuz I think he helped put that together.

[00:32:28]Anyways, It's a great platform. So I there's a whole long story that I won't bore you with, but I teach a OCIA class at my parish every year and it's always on the the chastity section of the Catechism.

[00:32:40]And I love the section of the chastity in the Catechism because in the light of this document, because it jumps out the integral human development piece, the integrity of the person piece, the always remembering that we're humans first as whole people. And then the Catechism in that section, I think it's like the 2300s if I remember right, um talks about an apprenticeship in self-mastery is what chastity is. So, it's a lifelong striving to master ourselves.

[00:33:10]That being being integrated with God, which I think maybe is a nod to the transhumanism bait-and-switch that he put in there. It's like, "Yeah, we're transhumanism is the goal, but not with machines, with with God, right?" So, I mean, I I I'm curious if you if that stood out to you, too, Oh, yeah.

[00:33:28]>> as like the That's the That was the part when I was reading it the first time through. I was like, "Ooh, I'm going to need to go like reread some of this."

[00:33:36]Cuz like transhumanism and posthumanism, words that get thrown around that the average person is not using in conversation or like even thinking about like the neural link potential and the you know, the con Like it's all sci-fi movies up to this point until you realize, "No, like that's what that's what an entire element of Silicon Valley is is working towards and is trying to achieve." And I loved how he juxtaposed He's like, "Oh, you transhumanism, you want transhumanism? Come see Come see the Christian life. Come see Jesus who makes us more than human, right?" But it's it's also this I think he talks about I I loved how he This did not come across even as he's telling us those are bad perspectives to have or bad pursuits to to reach after.

[00:34:22]He then beautifully explains there's a desire in our heart for more.

[00:34:27]And we are hungry for something, and we are grasping.

[00:34:32]And I I kept going back to I love that you're bringing up chastity because one of the the things that we would often say to like young people at a conference is, are you grasping or are you receiving? Mhm.

[00:34:41]>> And I think AI is this opportunity and this chance for us to grasp at what we think is the end-all be-all, which is knowledge, which is being treated as this commodity, which is intellect and intelligence, which is is held up as these data points that I can just get more and more and more of.

[00:34:56]There's a gluttony when it comes to intelligence at times.

[00:35:00]And and Leo talks about weakness is what makes us strong.

[00:35:04]And recognizing limits, which requires you to depend upon others and be in relationship with others, and and this harmonious growth that can come out of what you experience as a lack. And I said this on a live stream yesterday, I think so much of the transhumanism movement, the posthumanism movement, even with like AI and ChatGPT and any version of artificial Most people engage with artificial intelligence in a very simplistic format, which is a chatbot.

[00:35:32]And it's integrated into so many other aspects of our lives, too. But like the majority of people are just chatting with a chatbot. That is their interaction with artificial intelligence. And the the goal is often to make things as frictionless as possible. So, ChatGPT plan my meals for me. Or or ChatGPT scan through my emails and give me a running to do list of the stuff that I have to take care of today. And I get that in the name of efficiency sometimes those tools are incredibly helpful. But what happens is we're creating this frictionless life.

[00:36:02]And it is actually when there is some friction that we are growing in virtue.

[00:36:05]I'm not saying your life needs to suck and be difficult, but it is only in moments when you are stretched and challenged that virtue has the opportunity to actually form. And I think what Leo is poking at is, I know you want more.

[00:36:17]And I know you think that this end-all be-all of intellect and intelligence is going to give that to you, but that is still going to leave you hungry.

[00:36:26]And in that hunger, please look at Jesus Christ. In that hunger, please look at the Eucharist. In that hunger, why not look to the incarnation?

[00:36:35]Because he was hungry for us.

[00:36:37]And that that was a pastor's heart of navigating what could be very analytical and very particular and and like pushing on like if honestly if if the one practical that comes from this in the average pew-sitting Catholic's life, who yes is being affected by the colonialism of data and who is being affected by the way this is destroying the environment, but like in our granular everyday moment of living, AI is a tool.

[00:37:01]I hope and pray that this leads us to recognize it's not always a tool I have to pick up.

[00:37:07]Right? Like it's sometimes a tool that while I'm very happy it exists, I I don't need to go pull it out of the drawer. And that's not to try to relegate AI cuz he's he's going much deeper than just AI is a tool. Like he's talking about who builds the tool and what is implicit within the tool and what is the tool doing to us. But I think the average person their use of AI is as a tool. And so I think if the average person reading this is challenged to maybe put the tool down a little more and go literally touch grass, then he will have accomplished what he wanted to accomplish. Right.

[00:37:37]Yeah, that was something that I'd written down actually for one of the questions to talk about was we've kind of already touched on it a little bit that it's it's an it's just a new AI has the potential especially in how you described it for the everyday granular user. I'm a remodeling contractor for my full-time job and I use chat GPT to help me narrow down how much a bathroom remodel takes or you know, all these sorts of things. But yeah, the danger in it is this does it have the potential to just be another way that's that secular society has found a way to take away a piece of our human agency to our own detriment or that we allow it to be taken away from us.

[00:38:18]Maybe unknowingly, maybe knowingly, but to to not yeah, to be able to un- unhitch one part of our brain.

[00:38:24]It was It was funny. The other day we were driving. My parents were in the car. I forget Oh, we were visiting my sister.

[00:38:30]My sister is a a religious sister. My whole family went up to go visit her in New York. We rented a car. We're driving from Philadelphia up to Jersey. It's about a 2 and 1/2 hour drive. We've got sat nav as my kids call it from Bluey.

[00:38:42]And my 8-year-old is in the backseat of the minivan like all the way in the back. We're all exhausted and hungry and had not stopped for food. And we're on the New Jersey Turnpike. So like there's really only a couple different options that you can stop at and we missed the exit. And so I like am tip-tapping on the screen trying to like pull up where the next McDonald's or something is going to be. And Rose from the backseat of the car pipes up and says, "How did y'all do this when you didn't have sat nav, Mom?"

[00:39:10]And my mom and dad were sitting in the middle part of the minivan. And so I just turned to them and I said, "How did we do that, Mom and Dad?" And my mom went, "Well, we carried our own snacks for one.

[00:39:20]And then Dad said, and then they started regaling us of all these stories of our childhood road trips where we'd like have the map quest printout and like would know that Okay, we're stopping in Meridian, Mississippi where there's four hotels in a row and we'll just pull up at each one and ask, 'Do you have a room?' Like all of this pre-prepared, pre-planned, GPS will tell me where to go. I mean, even like our trip to Rome.

[00:39:41]Like I've got our map routes already laid out for how we're going to walk from point A to point B thanks to some AI in this this travel app that I'm using.

[00:39:51]And I'm not saying it would be easier or even more enjoyable to necessarily ask the Italian nonna at the grocery store where to go. But I have a feeling I'm going to have a better story if I interact with a person rather than just let the app tell me. And I That's not He's not saying it's all bad.

[00:40:10]I think he's encouraging us to remember that we lose something if that's all we ever end up doing from here on out. And then to take it that next level of of challenging the institutions crafting this stuff and asking governments to regulate it, there's the personal challenge to all of us to remember who we are, and then there's the very practical hey guys, like we have this tool and this is what it's systemically doing to society as a whole. I, the Vatican, cannot tell you how to govern, but I, the Vatican, can encourage you to choose the better path in this. And and that's where you get into the how is this being shaped and who is doing that shaping? I mean, who's writing the ethics and moral code of Anthropic and ChatGPT? We know that Anthropic stood up to the federal government with regard to how their systems would be used in weapons. And when he talks about in the document, I forget exactly what section it is, but I I highlighted a ton of it, how like a an AI bot or code making the determination of where a bomb drops or who even gets a job, there's no human face and human wisdom and human human experience guiding that decision, and then there's no human person that can be held accountable, that can actually be held to task, which then means that there's less hesitation because if I'm the one punching the button that drops the bomb, I might think three, four, five times about who's on the other side of that that blast. Mhm. And the chatbot's not going to do that. That and I'm I'm simplifying the way these technologies It's not a chatbot, but like in my experience, they're all just little robots sitting in a room.

[00:41:48]As well, you have to have like a visual image and I just imagine like these these server farms and these data centers have all these little like I, robot creatures sitting inside of them computing away and hurting all of us.

[00:41:59]But it's it's always the And then I think this is going to be Sorry, you're going to have to shut me up. I think this is going to be a defining element of Leo the 14th.

[00:42:08]This is a man who as he settled into the the over the past 12 months has clearly become much more comfortable being close to the people, has clearly figured out his own style.

[00:42:18]So, like he's not kissing babies, he touches their head. He's not taking a ton of selfies unless he's with teenagers, and then he will absolutely do six seven. Like he knows who is in the room with him.

[00:42:29]And I think what he did with Magnificat Humanitatis is say, "I'm not battening down the hatches, and I'm not shutting the doors. I am building a bigger table. Please come sit with me."

[00:42:39]Yeah. Wow.

[00:42:40]I love that. We might just have to leave that there.

[00:42:43]That's I mean that's a that's such a great place to end on.

[00:42:48]Um I think the only other thing that that jumped out on the that I think is worth talking about as far as like a machine determining yeah, where a bomb drops or whatever. Mhm.

[00:42:58]Have you read A Canticle for Leibowitz?

[00:43:00]You know, I am so happy you brought that book up because I downloaded it on my Kindle last night. I have tried >> night. Holy cow.

[00:43:07]>> Last night I've tried to read that book so many times.

[00:43:11]Um a guy I dated in college was obsessed with that book. And I it came back up in my head as I was reading this cuz I started it. Like I kind of I kind of know the premise of it, and I'm glad it's never been made into a movie because I don't think they can make it into a movie properly. But yeah, but tell everybody about it, please.

[00:43:28]>> Well, yes. So, yeah, it's so it's it's split into three novellas, I guess, for lack of a better term. So, it's three sections of the same book. First one, yes, is set like 50 or so years after a nuclear holocaust. So, bombed back to the Stone Age. The protagonist in that story is a monk of the Abbey of Saint Leibowitz, who is this scientist who, I think, left his science science behind or whatever it was, founded a monastery, the blast happened, and they happen to be in this little oasis. So, they're they're basically just kind of trying to literally dig through rubble and put together the pieces of society.

[00:44:02]>> the record, yeah. Right. Yeah, they find he finds like a little a little diagram of a machine piece or something and they they they you know do all the marginalia in the in flourishes and all those sorts of things.

[00:44:16]And in the second book is they're just discovering electricity. So there's there's like three monks on a bicycle powering a light bulb. And there's the people the old grizzled abbot who's like, "No, we don't want to This is too scary." And then there's the more avant-garde people who are still faithful who are like, "No, I think we need to give this a shot." And then the third book is basically our situation now where there's planes and self-driving cars and all these things, but then there's this threat of nuclear war. So I thought of this when uh Poplio quoted Paul the VI. Mhm.

[00:44:50]He said, "The danger of humanity becoming a victim of its own achievements was already clearly recognized by St. Paul VI who warned that the most extraordinary scientific progress, the most astounding technical feats, and the most amazing economic growth unless a compa- accompanied by authentic moral and social proj- progress will in the long run go against man." And I think right afterwards did he quote Romano Guardini?

[00:45:12]Where he said Tim O'Malley, I'm sure. Or right before it. Yeah, contemporary man has not been trained to use power well. No, yes, which is such a a callout of power for its own sake, might makes right. Well, we've got the most, we've got the best, watch what we can do. And And nope, disarm.

[00:45:32]That is the most unarming thing or that I I love how Leo is is So Francis was trying to tell us that the church is a field hospital.

[00:45:43]Leo is telling us the church is a construction site. Mhm. And on that construction site, we do not arrive armed to the teeth.

[00:45:51]We arrive ready to receive the task at hand. And And Canticle for Leibowitz is a beautiful exploration of of the building that could or could not happen. The other as you're describing Canticle of Leibowitz, the other like modern popular media thing that comes into my head is Did you ever watch or read Station 11 from Emily St. Henry?

[00:46:11]So, I discovered that book when I during COVID, I was pregnant and then newly postpartum and there was we were evacuated to my grandfather's house in Pineville, Louisiana and they had a little free library and this book. And I just grabbed it cuz I liked the cover and it ended up being about this horrible pandemic that like killed 90% of the world's population. So, not the book to read when you are postpartum staying up like 2:00 in the morning trying to feed your baby.

[00:46:33]But then HBO made a very limited run TV show like 10 episodes. Um I don't even know if it's on HBO anymore cuz they pulled down so many of their shows for like the tax write off. But it's about 90% of the world's population is wiped out and yet there's still a handful of people who are maintaining the treasury of like Shakespeare and this little tiny oasis of an airport is protected from the disease getting in and so it like they build their own little society kind of within.

[00:46:59]And there's a child who's cared for by an adult who like saves her in the midst of it cuz obviously it's it's a very human story and there's a line in the middle and I'm going to I'm going to bungle it but there's a line in the middle when a reunion that you want to happen happens where they ask each other like do you remember?

[00:47:18]And it's like do you remember the fight that we had to survive? Do you remember these elements of life that we once upon a time had? So, like they'll talk about how like their phone stopped working obviously because like everything in society fails because if 90% of the population dies like you can't keep anything maintained. And so, it's just I hope Can I tell you what my real hope is that in 135 years when there's who even knows what a podcast looks like in 135 years, people are talking about Magnificat Humanitatis the same way that we talk about Rerum Novarum and yet there's even more that we have done in society and yet we talk about this with the same love that we talk about Rerum Novarum with. Like this was the moment of change to remind us of the dignity of man and the dignity of work. This is a moment of change to remind us of who we are in the face of intelligence is the end-all be-all. And I love that we can sit here and think about Beethoven's Ninth Symphony or Schindler's List or Lord of the Rings or books and movies that move us because that's what makes us human. Like I could ask ChatGPT for some movie recommendations. It'd be really weird if I asked it, "Tell me what you like about it." cuz it can't like it. It can't, but you can like it. You can tell me what you love about that story and I can tell you what I love about this show and we can meet on that bridge of meaning and and share something beautiful. And if we lose that to simply a frictionless existence with these tools, then we've lost what it means to be human.

[00:48:40]Yeah. Well, that's as good a place as any to to end it. I know you have to go here pretty soon, so um thanks again for being on the show. Where can people find you? What do you like to promote?

[00:48:51]>> Yeah, yeah. I'm on um Sirius XM Channel 129 every morning from 7:30 to 10:00 a.m. Eastern Time and then we post clips from that show over on a free podcast feed More McGrady with Katie. You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and Substack. That's usually the Facebook, too. Katie P. McGrady, you can find me.

[00:49:07]I think I'm the There was a Katie McGrady at like Iowa College or something who ran track.

[00:49:12]But I'm the only Katie McGrady in Catholic world right now, so you can you can find me pretty quickly.

[00:49:17]>> Nice. Nice. Great. Well, um yeah, Magnificat Humanitatis is the encyclical. It will be linked in the description. If you've not seen it, I'm planning, I think I still will, maybe just as a uh small protest against AI-generated [clears throat] I saw that you liked one tweet where the guy was like, "I took the document and made it into a 7-minute video." I'm like, "Did we just not >> read it? Yep, I commented on that. No, wait. Please don't do that. All right.

[00:49:43]Yeah. I thought he was trolling everybody, but then I watched the video.

[00:49:46]It didn't even say Magnificat Humanitatis correctly.

[00:49:49]Didn't even spell Magnificat correctly in their stupid little AI generated art.

[00:49:53]Yeah. Of course. Well, I think I'm going to give it a go at reading it all the way through and posting it. So >> audio. Yes, cuz there's so many AI audio versions of it. And I like I thumbs down every single one I see on Twitter. Yeah, I don't want a bot reading it to me. No, definitely not. So, yeah, if anybody out there is looking for an audio version, just wait a couple days. Hopefully I'll have that out. But, yeah, thanks again, Katie. It was good to see you again. Good to talk to you again. Thank you. Great work with the Pope Cast. I love it. Hey, thanks.