He Lived for the Fight. Then the Fight Almost Killed Him. | Daniel Carcillo

Added: 2026-05-17

[00:00:00]Today we have a couple of special guests who have both dedicated their lives to a problem hockey doesn't want to talk about. Dan Carcillo won two Stanley Cups, fought 164 fights, and was one of the most feared enforcers in the NHL.

[00:00:15]But when retirement came, the damage those fights left behind nearly cost him everything. His health, his mind, and at his lowest point, his life. This is the story of how he found his way back and why he refused to stay silent. Dr. Victoria Silverwood is a criminologist at Swansea University, founder of Heads Up Hockey, and a researcher who has spent years studying violence and harm inside professional sport. One lived it, one studies it. Both are here to talk about it. Let's get into it.

[00:00:54]>> Hi Dan. Um, thanks so much for taking the time to to join us today. Um, it feels very strange to talk to such an accomplished athlete um, without giving a big long list of your achievements, obviously your successful hockey career, your two Stanley Cup rings. But the focus of what we're talking about today is what you've accomplished since your um, retirement from hockey in the last sort of 10 or 11 years. Um, I think your career speaks for itself. Um, and people will be aware of what you've done on the ice, but it's really nice to take a chance to hear about what you've been doing um, since retiring from the NHL and the massive um, difference you're making to people. So, thanks for joining us.

[00:01:35]>> Of course. Yeah, good to good to see you again. It's been a while.

[00:01:39]>> A long time. Um, so I was just wondering if there's, you know, you've been massively influential in terms of the sort of support you're given postc career transition for other players for, um, advocacy for brain health um, and good mental health. Um, how does it feel to talk about your your post hockey career rather than just your hockey career?

[00:02:05]>> Yeah, it feels good. I you know when I first retired and I think a lot of athletes go through this they have to almost go through like a period of mourning even though I didn't know it because a very big piece of you dies. Uh the athlete in you. You're no longer competing and then you know the reality of professional sports is you're either not good enough to continue to play uh or you get hurt and you can't play anymore. Um, but the game decides when it's done with you other than usually it's not the other way around. Um, and so, you know, when I stopped, I was in that group that was forced to stop just because of these symptoms of brain injury. And, and so I went through a pretty dark period of uh, you know, almost like living in this kind of almost victimhood mindset of of continuing to blame the institutions that I came up in and that I played for uh, for not protecting us enough if they had certain information. And um you know I'm in a very different mindset now in the sense that of course there still needs to be accountability and and you know the care should should be in line with just treating human beings properly. Uh but I'm also very well aware that there's these other pressures uh that are on the athlete on the organizations and and I'm luckily I'm one of the men that made it out that you know didn't end up accidentally overdosing or committing suic because of the symptoms uh that I had. I was close. I was I was very close towards the end. It was I had those thoughts. And so when you do get recovery, uh, if you're lucky enough to to take the help and and get to a point of just kind of throwing up your arms and using some of these alternative medicines that are available, uh, then you get to a point in your life where you're grateful for the suffering and you're grateful to be able to hopefully carry a certain message in a certain way so that others um, hear it, you know, and um, and can take advantage of it.

[00:04:20]Yeah. And when did you first notice something was wrong? Obviously, you were you were still playing in your your final season and you were realizing that you'd had concussions. I believe it was seven concussions that you knew of as well as other sort of non-conussion injuries.

[00:04:36]>> Yeah. So, it was actually in 2012, uh, a couple of us started to talk about this Dr. Carrick and and we knew that like Sydney Crosby had gone to him to recover from his concussions and so we took an invitation to go to his a couple of his centers, one of his centers. It was then in Georgia. Uh myself, Steve Monador, Ben Eager, a couple guys went. So like that was really we were starting to because you had such a long layoff and you know it's funny when you're in the fight you don't really know how sick you are but when you get out of the fight out of that environment and you get into civilian life >> and you're in extended you're in the gym for an extended period of time and not really like playing again you start to realize like whoa uh there's some things that are off about me and so I started to notice just like memory recall wasn't necessarily there and my sleep habits were really off. I was searching and using other substances to kind of numb out to disconnect because it was scary.

[00:05:37]>> So, we took some, you know, we took some time at some of these centers. We got a little bit better, moved the needle. I think anything that you do >> uh and take a proactive approach to to your health or brain health. um you know working on like uh vestibular training, ocular training like earlobe fluid obviously like eye tracking which all of these things get affected in in concussion. Um so that was kind of the first uh you know peeling back the onion so to speak and then it was really my last year. Um I had my sixth concussion the year before. My son was born in 2014 and I was talking with Steve a lot. Steve Monor and I were really close and he was dealing with a lot of these symptoms when he was in Europe and then he ended up stopping and >> and then and then this cascade effect started to happen and and that last year after my sixth I was like yeah no I I don't know if I can do this again and then I got my seventh concussion in March ended up winning our second Stanley Cup and so all of those things Steve's death in February really impacted me and so I was kind of just luckily spiritually done and then mentally I knew I was done. Um, and then the real fight, you know, started to happen where you go through the medical system and and um and you start getting the pharmaceuticals prescribed. The doctors aren't really asking you about past concussions and and those exasperate certain things. You start to go to the neurological wellness centers.

[00:07:04]You feel good when you're there, but nobody can, you know, spend their whole life in a clinic and spend $1,500 a day in these cash pay. It's really expensive. Um and then you start to use holistic tools like float tanks, hyperbaric chambers, you know, moxy bustion acupuncture, cranial sacral um and you start to believe like most concussion survivors that you have to start living a new normal. You got to just manage um these symptoms in this life. And so luckily there was this voice in the back of my head that said, "I think you'll find something." And I was reading PubMed papers and and um and yeah, luckily I did. Luckily, you know, I I I found mushrooms, so saved my life.

[00:07:46]>> Excellent. It's nice to see you looking so so healthy and be, you know, so keen to to talk about it. Do you think there was a little bit of um opposition to start with about sort of discussing some of the troubles of the league? And were you kind of encouraged to be more positive about your your time playing?

[00:08:04]>> Yeah. So, like when you're in hockey, you just know, right? like if you start to question certain things like it's you have you really it is very almost cultlike almost like the army I would imagine um in speaking with a lot of veterans who are taking on this type of therapy athletes and veterans have the same type of mindset right you sacrifice yourself for the good of the team or the good of the mission and and you you do not speak negatively about the employer um because if you're deemed that you have that you are a problem you're out right you have to tow the line and So, um, I just kind of threw up my arms, you know. I was really, luckily, I say luckily, like I was very frustrated, mostly sad, you know, really, really hurt that my friend had passed away. So young. His son was born two months after he passed away. I just had this young child in front of me. I was 30. Like, I was I could have I wanted to keep playing, but I couldn't. and and so that but I've always kind of been outspoken like the way I played my career every single coach most GMs would tell me hey man chill out like don't play that way you know you're going to nobody and I was I wouldn't listen I would always be on the edge you know and I wear my heart on my sleeve and I always tell the truth you know and so I just felt like I needed to tell the truth and the players trivia platform was just coming out I think they recognized that this was an issue. The 2013 NFL concussion settlement just settled. If you really dug into those the the truth about what was going on, they were communicating about the risks and how bad these NFL guys and the NHL, they were working together to >> to, you know, um not show us like the real risks or tell us about it. So that kind of made me feel a certain way. And then um you know I just started to really wear that uh that that frustration on my sleeve every day. And so I thought I was being a really good concussion advocate by telling everybody about the treatments that I was doing and then highlighting everything that was wrong with the league. And everybody every analyst that was like, you know, talking about um the league who wasn't highlighting the risk of concussion, I would I would go after and I burned a lot of bridges. And in hindsight, I was just too emotional and but it, you know, I was suffering. I was I was in a really scary spot. I've since made a lot of um apologies and you know people I think understand where I was and and um and you know uh it's funny right when you one of the reasons that the medicine this medicine works so well neurologically it's been shown to kind of regenerate the brain or or this phenomena of neuroplasticity but what it ultimately does is helps you shift your perspective of how you view things >> and I was viewing and and when I say this victimhood mindset that clearly doesn't work. That gets people pinholed into viewing their world uh and seeing everything that's wrong. And so I was seeing everything that was wrong and I was highlighting it. But in my first journey that was keeping me sick. Um because uh highlighting the negativity was only allowing me to see the negativity. And so that was a really big shift. Obviously these mushrooms like helped stimulate uh different regions of my brain. got it back communicating again, took away my light sensitivity, my slurred speech. So, I was immediately starting to be encouraged that that this could be it. Um, I waited a year, you know, until I really started to talk about it. And, uh, yeah, it's been six and a half years. I've been symptom free. I reversed the dementia diagnosis.

[00:11:53]And, uh, you know, I anybody can have this, like anybody who wants to commit um, you know, to this uh, to this medicine and and use it.

[00:12:03]It's not a oneanddone. It's not a one cure. I still use the medicine as a part of my wellness regimen. Um but it's been Yeah, it's been really phenomenal for me.

[00:12:14]>> Yeah. I mean, obviously you say you were in a bad place when you were sharing on your player Tribune, but um it was the sharing of those stories that kind of did bring about a sea change in the culture. So your impact on on being open and and sharing was obviously very uncomfortable at the time, but did encourage people to have conversations about what what can we do, you know, what can we think about that can change in the sport to prevent this happening.

[00:12:41]>> Yes. Yes. And and you to your previous question, you know that you're going to be alienated, right? I knew I was cutting myself off from the only community that that I've ever known. So that was a difficult but like the frustration and the anger was taking over. Um there were a couple people like like you know I still remember to this day Paul Besonette um you know he said to me hey man I know you're upset but like remember all the times that the league protected you cuz I got into a lot of trouble that a lot of people don't know about you know and I was like yes and but I just I couldn't get there you know and um I now realize that that throughout my life and uh I work with clients who you know, this belief or this faith system that even though things are uncomfortable and things are happening to you, they're happening for you. I just didn't quite have that perspective.

[00:13:39]Um, but uh, you know, in order to keep what I have now, I feel like I have to give it away. And in most businesses and in most and in life, the first through the wall is the bloodiest. And it could have been a really easy life for me. you know, I could have um I could have stayed and made a couple hundred,000 just signing autographs in Chicago, but my soul, my um I just couldn't I couldn't do it, you know. Um so, >> did you find people were were also positive as well as obviously the difficulties of sharing it? Did you find that it brought support out to you from people you may not have expected?

[00:14:21]>> It did. Yeah. But the support was in the background. It was, "Hey man, keep going. Thank you for what you're saying." But it was from analysts that were making money in the system. So, of course, they couldn't publicly. So, yeah, there were some encouraging people who I won't name because, you know, I don't want them to get in trouble.

[00:14:40]>> And um but yeah, there was there was uh there was there was a lot of support.

[00:14:45]The reality of what I'm talking about affects a lot more men in and I say men, I'm just talking about the NHL in in uh a lot more people than we realize. I would say it's, you know, between like 60 to 80% of us. Um, and what's really cool, you mentioned like the conversations is like when we're suffering in general, when people are suffering, we we tend to think that our suffering is like special to us. It's isolated to us, you know, and then you have more of these conversations with some of these Hall of Famers who are some of my former teammates and they're like, "Hey man, like first two years like I was going through it. I was really angry or I had this >> this transition that was really really difficult." All of us go through that.

[00:15:34]And I think it goes back to that kind of like we don't allow ourselves to almost grieve this big part of us that's dead that that we can no longer we can no longer tap into you know and um so the suffering is a lot more common and and I think just innately you know the pain of losing one of my friends the the thought of of what I was thinking about doing to myself and then inherently how that would have permeated through my family was really scary because I'm usually a happy I'm a pretty happy guy. Um, and I just when you're in those phases, you really just don't want anybody else. If you could mitigate some of that suffering from from others going through it, those were like really big reasons why I tried to speak out.

[00:16:24]>> Yeah. And obviously you had a lot of support from your your family and and your friends um around you. Was there um was there support for you sort of speaking out and and sort of addressing these things and now moving forward with with businesses and with ideas of you know charitable organizations that you're trying to do? Was was there any kind of people warning you against that or was everyone very supportive of it?

[00:16:50]Uh again, yeah, you're kind of like on this island, you know. Um but I'm, you know, used to that. Used to that, right?

[00:16:57]Like most professional athletes have to be very, very comfortable first of all being uncomfortable. You're pretty much always in pain. And then you have to be really comfortable living in your own head because you're very much there.

[00:17:09]You're a part of the team. But you know, when you're in the gym, when you're on the ice, like it's you. it's you and the sport and and connecting with yourself and your role and your mind and your spirit and what you're bringing to the team.

[00:17:21]>> So I was comfortable I was okay like I kind of wanted to be alone uh in the sense and and so like building I was used to doing that and and yeah the charity was a really good start. It was something that I had no idea how to do.

[00:17:37]And I don't know if I did it well, but like it was just me and my wife picking up the phone and just saying, "Hey, this is what we're doing. We don't have it figured out because I'm still suffering." But this place in LA with Linda Ho, which was Moxy Acupuncture, was really amazing for me. Like I felt phenomenal for like months on end, not just weeks. It was a lot of really good relief. Um and so we would just yeah we would just talk about our experience and and um and try to try to help that way.

[00:18:08]Um and you know it's when I finally found the mushrooms and these ceremonies and when I finally got these like clear brain scans, I took a step back and I mean people could immediately hear it in my voice and and like see it, right? you can see it when somebody's kind of like, "Oh, he's they're back, right?" Like, "Good for them. They're feeling better." You can kind of tell because it's not so negative every time you get on a video.

[00:18:39]Um, and one of the things that it said, and I know it's a weird thing to talk about, uh, and call a medicine, a natural medicine that's been here longer than human beings intelligent, but when you're in these ceremonies, it can give you messages. And one of the things that it it said was we can get your brain healthy. Uh but you have to use your platform to provide access and get and get more people to come and and do this.

[00:19:05]And so um it started kind of with those charities, right? like feeling a little better at some and then now it's grown into um these businesses that clearly need to be propped up because they don't exist, you know, and um and so, you know, experience onward is something now that I'm doing in these legal states in Oregon and Colorado. And the goal uh and we're going to you know start talking about this more is to get the first ever inhuman observational study done with John's Hopkins. So we've already we've created the study and the frameworks. Um we have a Harvard doctor researcher uh somebody well known from uh in the CTE research realm. It's it's with John's Hopkins so a very wellrespected academic institution. and then hopefully the NHLPA and the NFLPA and the leagues will see the benefit in what we're trying to do as far as pre and post diagnostics um for postconussion syndrome and we'll see where it lies. So there's like started with the charity and then it's moved into um you know these kind of uh these businesses that but always with the crux of can we track data so that we can prove um scientifically that this is moving the needle spiritually you can see it you know you can um hear it but uh >> yeah we need some science and data to back it up in this world.

[00:20:34]>> Absolutely. And it it's something that again it's very similar to a charity in the sense that you're like you're trying to not only make change for yourself and figure your own path into retirement and through retirement, but you're you're still trying to impact others and help others by, you know, by prioritizing that research, getting that that data and evidence um as well, which is is is really encouraging. Have you had any feedback from any league officials at at any point in your journey? Firstly, when when things were going very badly and you were speaking out about CTE and um mental health and Steve um as well um or even more recently when you were beginning to sort of identify things that were beneficial.

[00:21:21]Yeah. I mean, first I'll say, you know, I do the things that I do because I was told to do this by this medicine and this medicine continues to keep me happy and healthy. And so like it is, you know, I don't want to position it as something like that's noble even though I like being of service because it gets me out of my own head, but it's more so like out of also fear that if I don't do what I said I was going to do in that ceremony that it would stop. It's going to stop working for me, you know. Um, so I'll just say that. But, um, there are there were, uh, people that were like, whoa, man. Um, you like mostly people that were like, "Are you okay?" Like everybody knew that I was really hurting, you know?

[00:22:06]>> Uh, and you could see on the ice like with the way that I played, right? Like there was no kind of there's no filter like you got all of me. Um, and so it's very much like that in how I am in real life, except I'm usually not angry. Like I'm I'm a very, like I said, like kind of polar opposite. So it was a lot of um and again behind the scenes, nobody nobody outwardly um you know, asking. Uh but there were a lot of people there were a lot of people that that checked up on me, especially from the Hawks organization, even though I was attacking the Hawks organization. Um and uh you know I've since like gone back for like a couple alumni things and and everybody's welcomed me. um you know I don't think I did anything that that is like that can't be um remedied with a sorry a face to face and so I I did those and um uh but I think yeah there was you know for all of the things that I was saying people were um um you know people were were a little bit concerned that I would become one of the statistics um but uh you know and I'm hopeful about um the future You know, uh, a lot of people have actually said, a couple guys are like when I tell them about this new study that I want the NHLPA, they put $4 million into like putting it towards some of these research initiatives, right, for alternative medicines and a lot of people are like, and time will tell because I haven't officially approached them yet. Um, you know, are you worried that if you approach them, they're going to say no just out of spite? And um you know it's a thought for sure, but uh it's not a worry, you know, because my type of mentality now is like I'll just find private funding for it and we'll still I have a list of 20 NHLPA guys that all want to participate. So >> yeah, we'll see.

[00:24:04]>> Yeah. And obviously you you've spoken about sort of some of the other research on CTE as well. Um, and do you think that that's encouraging people to pledge to donate their brain when their time comes for further research um or getting involved in things?

[00:24:24]>> Not the greatest.

[00:24:26]Um, so I was just sort of saying, do you feel like being vocal and speaking out even those early stages before you've discovered what's been beneficial to you has helped people take the the problem of ZTE more seriously or pledging to donate their brain to research or put themselves forward for research like you have?

[00:24:46]>> I'd like to think so. Yeah. I you know if I take a second to to think about it I know you know it made an impact and it's you know is it quantifiable by hundreds that it that doesn't matter to me because u I mean I do get messages and have gotten messages that um again like you know this uh I saw how bad you were and then now you're completely changed and it hasn't been this change hasn't been evident for a month or three months it's like six six and a half years. So, um I just recently we had a retreat um uh in on last week on Saturday and one of the girls was there and she's like the reason I'm here is because I was like man if this guy can do it like I can do it you know uh and I'm like perfect like that is that is the message right you're just trying to empower people to >> to who are very defeated going through this medical system of all specialists there's no kind of one in individual that like truly knows, you know. Um, and if somebody's telling you and sitting across from you and truly telling you how complex this system is and these 86 billion neurons are communicating to the heart and the organs and and it's it's pumping your blood without you even thinking about it and growing your nails and growing your hair and it's it's when you really delve into it, it's really complex. And so, you know, um, nobody really knows except you except like how you feel.

[00:26:21]>> And if people have, >> science is really important, right? For sure. But if people have a certain thing that you notice and they were in a certain way, uh, you should listen to them. you know, you should talk to them and you should should find out like, hey, what did you do? Maybe that could work for you. That's kind of how I moved through the system. You know, I was like, >> um, when I stopped going to those centers was when I was asking about like my hormones and blood work when they wouldn't take it because I just had this thought in my mind of like, all right, if we're doing all these great exercises and stuff, right? Um, but I feel as though like I just don't have the energy to do them. I started to research the pituitary gland and how that dictates the hormones and if the brain is off, if the hardware isn't communicating to that, then you can have bad sleep, low energy, your t testosterone could be off, your cortisol. And that was exactly what was happening. So I went and tested my blood and then um I started to do things to try to you know get rid of the brain fog, get rid of the brain fatigue and um so it's a really complex journey for concussion survivors and we go to the ocular specialist and the vestibular specialist and then the neurologists and and um uh it's it's it can get really tiring. So it's really good. I encourage people if anybody's listening to this like if you find somebody that is talking about a certain modality that has really helped them and they look like they are helped and not just kind of selling something you should listen to them and then go try it for yourself because hyperbaric chamber works didn't work for me but it works for a lot of people so I still kind of highlight it because um you know some people have really been helped by by doing hyperbaric that have had a brain injury.

[00:28:18]So going going back a step just thinking about the the number of people who have these issues with concussion um and obviously non-concussion as well subconussive hits and issues. Do you think there is a time when the NHL would admit that there is the link between that and some of the issues players are facing? Obviously the NHL the NFL has has settled a suit and made an agreement. the NHL or Gary Bman still denies that there is a link between contact sport or hockey and brain injury. Um do you think that the tide will will turn on that?

[00:28:58]Yeah. I mean, it's like, man, I have so many other things that I I need to do that are that are directly impacting people's lives that I just cannot put my attention there anymore, unfortunately.

[00:29:14]And I just think of like the, you know, how we always weigh like risk benefit, >> like what is the ultimate benefit of him saying that, you know? Um, is it more awareness? Of course. is I just but I just um first of all I'm not in the league anymore so I don't truly know what they're doing because they could have upped their game with you know and we can see with the spotters and and then my son he's 11 he's not hitting right now he's right um so the neck strength is getting up so there are some positive things I always kind of just kind of go back to um one of the messages that mushroom said to me in the ceremony that helped me switch my perspective was like, "Hey man, did you really need somebody, a specialist or a doctor who really doesn't know, you've already covered that, tell you that getting punched in the face and getting in 164 fights and hitting thousands of people was going to make you not feel good?"

[00:30:16]Like, didn't you know that? When you think of it objectively, do you not know that? And I was like, "Yeah." I'm like, "You're right." you know, um, so do they have an obligation to kind of help shepherd us in a way, right, these this medical oversight? I mean, at the end of the day, we're 1099s, so we we're independent contractors, so that's our union's job, >> I think, right? More so than the league.

[00:30:45]Is it the right thing to do? Absolutely.

[00:30:48]Uh, do guys want that oversight in their career? because if you get hurt, you're out of the lineup. You could be out of the league within two weeks. So, there's just so much psychology that goes into uh and I think it's pretty well known now like you know, you're you're there's a lot of guys that are that are hurting and you're going to be hurting um if you if you don't watch your brain health quality of life ultimately. Would it be would it be nice for him to say it? It's the right thing to do for sure. even though it's a very good argument like you know you can't definitively say um you know that it's uh it's it's just a really good argument. It's it goes back to like what I was saying before right how complex this system is. So we can kind of deniable plausibility. It's like it's it's perfect. So um it would help a lot of people if he sees this. it would it would probably help, you know, tens of thousands if not millions of people that are still suffering with postconussion syndrome. So, it's definitely the right thing to do.

[00:31:55]>> Yeah. And one of the things that they've changed um a lot since since you've retired is um obviously reducing the amount of fighting and kind of putting a lot of the blame of concussion and brain injury on the fighting.

[00:32:09]Do you have an account of how much of it was the fighting and how much of it was the the just regular body checking that just comes dayto-day in in the hockey and in training and in games?

[00:32:20]>> Uh yeah, I mean I won most of my fights, you know, uh if not 95% of them. Um I just think it's repetitive. It's it's this repetitive um constant battering and you know, you only get like two months off, right? And then you're right back into it. Uh there's so many factors. There's so many factors. Uh it's also where did you lose me on? Um so I think you lost me on like um I think I was talking >> was was fighting and how much were the hits and the training and the professional professionalization of the game.

[00:32:57]>> Yeah, I think it was I think it was a combination of both. I you know I didn't lose many fights. Um, but my last two were were pretty big hits to the same spot on my brain. And so I just think at some point your body mostly your spirit knows that the hits are starting to hurt more and there's these consequences that are starting to happen more often >> and and it's just you just can't fight anymore and certain the hardware is not communicating with with uh the software and the body. You know, there was a really interesting study that came out where if you have a brain injury, you're 80% more susceptible to uh tearing your ACL.

[00:33:40]>> Yeah.

[00:33:41]>> Um and that goes to say that if the brain is hurt, it's not firing the right muscles, even the right ligaments, which is kind of like really scary. So, >> I think it was a combination. It was a really long career. You 10 years is a long time to play and and um but uh yeah, it got pinned on the hockey guys or the fighters. I think we also have to remember like the fighters back in the day, they would start the game by fighting like there wasn't, you know, and so they and they would just hit each other. Um, and they were big guys. So >> that was a little different than when I came in. And you see guys like Rick Nash who retired, didn't have many fights in the league.

[00:34:20]>> So um, yeah, I think it's just that repetitive constant battering.

[00:34:26]>> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I've got one sort of more question so to ask you about the the legal side of things and then I want to kind of delve a bit more deeper into the experience onward and and that kind of information. Obviously you've talked in the past about um Steve Montador's case which is still still ongoing um and any other sort of involvement. I know you were sort of saying you've kind of stepped away from some of that fight in order to work on progressing your own health and sort of making other positive changes, but how important do you think it is these sort of legal challenges? And they're not just happening in hockey. They're obviously happening in in football, in rugby, in soccer, in in a whole range of other sports as well.

[00:35:11]>> It's important. It's really important.

[00:35:13]You know, his his trial is still going on uh or maybe about to start. I don't quite know where it is. I would I would love to be more involved. Uh I just there were things that started to happen that where I just had to kind of lay down my sword in a way and do what I'm doing now. Um man, I haven't really thought about it in a long time. Um I don't know if it was the right thing to do, you know. um to kind of not be a witness and not I mean I might have to might have to look back at it, but there was um you know it put my wife at risk. It put my family at risk. It it just so um you know I think uh there's a big part of me too that was kind of like I got this message that like hey you've done enough like you've you've fought long and hard >> and um you know his uh it's funny the last time that I thought about um uh the trial and and what's happening was when I started to like be really proud. I used to be really I used to I used to give myself a lot of guilt and shame about the things that I did in the league about >> beating people up, you know, about punching people in the face to to win hockey games. And you know, through this journey that I've been on of like, man, I was I'm so proud of what I did. It is so hard to do that.

[00:36:57]It is like man and I and I loved it you know like I it wasn't the fact that I was just trying to you know competition like men competing even women going up against each other building your body and your mind and your spirit up and then testing it in front of like 20,000 people to yeah it's just a 35 pound trophy but man you are the best of the you know, and and so >> there was a long time when I was like in that victimhood mindset that I really >> I was shameful. I didn't want people to know. And now um you know Paul's Steve's dad Paul actually messaged me like, "Hey, why are you reposting fights now and glorifying?"

[00:37:49]And it the answer is I was I'm like I'm proud of what I did. I know that it hurt me. I know that it hurt a lot of people.

[00:37:59]Um, I obviously know that my friend's not here. Is it all because of fighting?

[00:38:04]Absolutely not. Does a lot of it have to do with the hits? And yes. Um, were we were like, do we take responsibility in the path that we chose? I do, you know, and I know I know Steve would too. And you know, he's said it and I've said it before. Some people just aren't meant to be here for a long time. You know, he packed a lot of years into 35. I only knew him for probably seven or eight.

[00:38:34]Um, would I like to be doing this with him?

[00:38:41]With Steve? Yes. You know, because he was starting to look into some of these medicines.

[00:38:46]>> Yeah.

[00:38:46]>> Uh, would I be here without Steve's death? I don't think so. you know, um cuz his death helped me retire. Um so yeah, I I I should probably look back into it and maybe see what else I can do. But um yeah, it's uh you know this life life uh when you look at your life, right? When you zoom out and you kind of what I've been able to do is is realize that all of the things that have happened to me are like so perfect to lead me into who I am today. And I really like where I am today. And I've got five beautiful kids.

[00:39:27]And the home we've built with my wife is amazing. and the mission that I'm on of trying to get this natural medicine to people that that helps that does so much um is great and it's all a part of it and uh I'm only one person. It's like you know some things you have to decide and think really objectively and I thought long and hard about it. You know I was um you know I didn't take any of the settlement from the league. I like because it came with an NDA and it came with all these things. It's like, no, I'm going to just, you know, maybe take some time. So, yeah.

[00:40:05]>> Yeah.

[00:40:06]>> And and it's knowing it's knowing what makes sense to you at the time as well and what what you need to do because it's not like you say, it's not something you heal from once. It's something that you continually work through and you're making the path that you're doing.

[00:40:20]>> Yeah. a very supportive family as well which you know some players lose because of the way the the brain injury or the culture or the retirement makes them feel but you you've kind of retain that and you know understandably you're going to focus on that.

[00:40:35]>> Yeah. Listen, you know, I think everybody knows in their heart, right?

[00:40:40]Like is a judgment going to change anything to know that like the Blackhawks clearing him for four concussions in that short window and then the league in general clearing him for 19 across a really short career.

[00:40:53]Like if we just say that everybody knows that that medical oversight was a failure, a complete failure. And and um and it directly impacted the way that he lived his life. I mean, he was sober for a really long time and like admitting this beautiful energy and then those four concussions in that short amount of time just >> really hurt him, you know, really hurt him. Um, and there it's a big reason why he's not here. And uh I wish he was, you know, I wish Ry was here, too. Um >> yeah, >> you know, so um but uh you know, he'll he'll always have a special place in my heart and and um so but this conversation, which I didn't uh I I um I'm going to I'll reach back out and see if there's anything that I can do.

[00:41:50]>> Yeah, that's that's great to hear. And I want to hear a bit more about your um your sort of own journey. You've talked a little bit about the various steps you've taken on today, but also in in previous podcasts. Can you tell me um about your kind of latest sort of idea?

[00:42:06]I know we've got a code to share with more information about experience onwards. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

[00:42:12]>> Sure. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for asking.

[00:42:15]So, when I got better, I took brain scans and blood work before I left for a mushroom journey. These mushrooms are showing a lot of benefit in promoting what's called neuroplasticity.

[00:42:29]>> Sorry, this internet, man.

[00:42:31]>> No, no problem. I I just wrote down the last bit that you said just so we'd remember it.

[00:42:37]>> You started by saying that um when you left for a ceremony, you did um brain scans and blood work because you wanted to see the benefits for neuroplasticity.

[00:42:46]So, do you want to start again with that and then >> Sure. Sure. Um, so when I was going through the medical system and I was I was always reading PubMed papers and I came across a study that was showing that these mushrooms were able to stimulate what's called neuroplasticity or communication in the brain that's never really been seen before. And I posted a lot on my Instagram like the placebo brain and the brain on mushrooms and this overcommunication.

[00:43:14]>> And that's what I was hearing a lot in these in these concussion or stroke rehabilitation centers. So, I thought that it could work for me. On top of that, it was showing that it was a really potent neuro anti-inflammatory and and and reduces body inflammation as well. Uh, it attaches to what's called a 5HT2A receptor, so it almost mimics serotonin, which is like a nice >> Oh, yeah.

[00:43:38]>> Hey, you still got me. Okay. Um, let's let's try it again. Take three.

[00:43:42]>> Yeah, you were just saying about it mimic serotonin.

[00:43:45]>> Okay, cool. Um, so yeah, it it mimics serotonin and we all know that the gut is is the second brain. Um, so all of these things I was just kind of in my history of being an athlete and knowing what to put in my body and and you know researching and and the science it it looked really positive and to be honest it provided a little bit of hope and I was pretty hopeless at that point and and so I I did a big journey. Uh I went on like a micro doing or lowd dose regimen and uh after 6 months I had no abnormalities in my brain scans. My blood work looked great. Like my free testosterone rose 1,200%.

[00:44:24]Uh my cortisol levels dropped and um I waited a year and then I just kind of started talking about this for uh for concussion survivors. That's what it did for me like neurologically, physiologically. But I mean, man, the biggest benefits and the biggest growth I got was was what it did for me spiritually, you know, how it uh changed the way that I viewed what I did and and just kind of now how I can, you know, move forward and in um just a little bit more of a peaceful manner and like actually liking me and then the things that that I that I accomplished because they're really hard to do and I should have been proud of it, but I just um I couldn't be, you know.

[00:45:12]>> Yeah. So, it's talk talk us through what a day in the life looks like now because obviously you you do a whole range of things to kind of keep your optimum health.

[00:45:21]>> Yeah, it's you know, I didn't work out for like four years after I retired. And so, you know, now it's uh exercise. I live in Florida, so I get out in the sun. I have a sauna that I use daily. I have a cold plunge that I use a lot of mindfulness practices, breath work. Uh, as as I operate these businesses, a lot of my day is just trying to be of service and and getting on discovery calls and uh doing webinars and just talking to people, trying to trying to just um give them hope and empower them to know that this could help them. uh because it's it's really stigmatized and yeah, I mean that's the focus of all my days. I, you know, wake up now. I don't sleep in until 3 PM like I used to do and go to bed at 3:00 a.m. and try to miss as much of the day as possible. I I live like a really happy life and and uh since the beginning of this year, you know, I I seem to be uh like kind of coming into my own and I've spoken about it before where like I this is one of the first times in my life that I like fully 100% committed to living, you know, to to being happy. Uh and and my kids are amazing. I have a really great wife. Uh, everybody's happy and healthy and and um we just opened up a new center in Colorado, private retreat center that has all of the wellness and amenity tools and and um you know, I'm just really excited. We have a ABC special coming out here soon.

[00:47:02]And then we've got this John's Hopkins study that we're going to try to hopefully get all the leagues together and get 30 30, you know, guys treated, 20 athletes and then 10 10 veterans. So, >> yeah.

[00:47:14]>> Yeah.

[00:47:15]>> Yeah. Because obviously some of the issues with CT are common across veterans and um athletes in contact sport.

[00:47:22]>> Absolutely. Yeah. The the blasts and and uh >> you know the the spiritual maladies are there as well. Um but definitely you know neurologically and and physiologically there's there's a lot of damage and and these >> medicines specifically mushrooms have been shown to uh to repair that. So >> and you mentioned briefly obviously you've got Oregon and Colorado due to their legal legal status. How much of a difficulty is it that um obviously there are some states now that that allow this kind of work and this kind of healing.

[00:48:00]How difficult is it that several don't or countries that wouldn't allow in any way?

[00:48:06]>> Yeah. So recently with the with the executive order that was signed, you know, everybody thinks, well great, like you know, everything's going to be legal and it's not so fast. But the definition of a schedule one substance is that it's highly addictive and there's no medicinal value. So what it does do is if it's fasttracking these FDA approvals in the clinical trials for these substances, then from a regulatory standpoint, the DEA will have to to reschedu. And so that could help uh a lot of these programs and a lot of these research programs and these statewide bills, which there's over a hundred of them. There's over 150 FDA approved clinical trials right now. I think there's over seven substances that have this breakthrough therapy designation.

[00:48:49]And then Oregon and Colorado are are the two legal states where you can go and and use this uh as adult therapeutic use. Uh so you don't necessarily need to have an ailment to be able to access it.

[00:49:02]And that's that's the world that that we play in. Um and so from a regulatory standpoint, it could it could help it could help open up more states. Um but two two in you know 2026 is like is really good and uh if you can travel or drive um then you know you can you can access these programs. So it's you know it's really exciting. It's exciting to be in an industry that isn't treating symptoms, right? We're essentially treating individuals and the spirit and empowering them to think differently.

[00:49:41]And the side effects of mushrooms just happen to be that, you know, they stimulate new neuronal pathways and they're a potent anti-inflammatory and they make you a nicer person. They make you calmer. They help you sleep better. If you can commit to a process of going into an altered state, shifting your world view, perspectives of people, places, and things, and then coming back to to this body, you can you can live a really happy life, you know.

[00:50:11]>> So, what would the kind of meaningful reform look like firstly for sports like hockey, football, um soccer and also then in terms of legalization of medicine of plant medicine?

[00:50:26]>> Yeah. I so I tell athletes all the time, right? Like I mean we work with a lot of active professional athletes and and some former a lot of former but they can't say anything because of the legalities. Um but you know the more athletes that speak out the easier it is for for others to listen because of just how stringent we are with what we put in our body and and the trust that that we convey to the public. So the more people that um you know speak out the better and and you know then with the descheduling then the leagues will likely take it off of their banned substance list. It's not on mushrooms aren't on a lot of the leagues already uh banned substance list. They don't test for it. they don't view it as a performance enhancement, which might change, you know, um, based off of how you view somebody's energy levels afterwards, you know, and, um, so, uh, I think athletes have a have a have a crucial role to play and and then, you know, I'll say like you don't need to be sick to to take advantage of the benefits of this medicine, you know. So, um, that's a really interesting angle, too.

[00:51:41]Yeah. So, what would you know what would you want your legacy to be as a player and as an advocate and you know taking your career as a whole pre and post retirement?

[00:51:55]>> Man, so legacy is an interesting word. I I hope first and foremost that my kids like me and they still want to hang out with me when I when you know they get out of the house. And my my goal is to like see my kids have kids. And then after that, I just want to be known and I think I already am in the hockey world and in life, in business, like just as this um person who worked really hard and and and tried to his best, you know, uh to to maybe, you know, be of service and make the world a better place. Um, so yeah, you know, it feels I'm in a a really nice pocket of my life where I also don't have everything figured out and I think that's okay. Uh and and so yeah, I just want I want people to know and and that they could, you know, trust me and and hopefully they'll they'll they can access this uh this medicine because it's it's, you know, really beneficial.

[00:53:16]>> Yeah. It's like you're saying, you kind of look at is it somebody selling something? Is it somebody who's got something to gain? Is it, you know, is it somebody who's being paid by the league or being paid by a media organization? And uh obviously it's clear from from the work that you're doing that this is about wanting to drive like large scale change rather than being something that you're looking at as being that you think that this is going to be what you have to say in order to get the paycheck.

[00:53:45]>> Yeah. No. Uh let me be very clear. The things that I'm saying and doing are are inherently selfish. We we all do that.

[00:53:54]Uh the only thing this goes back to what I was saying before. I'm not looking at it from a monetization standpoint. I'm looking at it from the thing that I get to keep. I with that message was told that I have to provide access. And so with access, the more access that I give, the more belief I have that this medicine will keep giving me my brain health and I'll keep living a really happy and fulfilling life, which has happened. It's the I've had the best >> I've had the best six and a half years of my life, hands down, you know. um which is uh which is which is really great. So yeah um you know I I do I do benefit you know uh from from people you know uh trusting that this could maybe improve their life. So um it's cool. It's it's really cool and it's awesome and I feel very blessed. I really do feel really really blessed that I get to to profit. Um, and I don't mean just money. I mean there's a lot of other ways that that I profit off of uh off of people doing this work, you know, but it's very much them doing the inner work and then they go back to their families. Like one of the best things that happens is the wife maybe texts my wife or you know they're like whoa. uh they're immediately like you could see it in people's faces. They they carry themselves differently.

[00:55:25]They're on a different type of frequency and then people just get curious, you know, and then starts to bleed, you know, into what do they say? You you heal yourself and then you heal your family and then uh hopefully you get to heal, you know, part of your community.

[00:55:42]So >> that that's really really great. one kind of last sort of summing up question. Obviously, we we kind of skipped over a lot of your your career, but you know, you've been you had your 10 year professional career and obviously long time before being professional where you were working very hard at hockey and then since then you've got what you've accomplished in the last 10 years. If you could go back and do it all again knowing what you know now, how would that look?

[00:56:13]>> Yeah.

[00:56:15]Uh, I I mean maybe I would have invested like a 100 grand in a Bitcoin, but that's about it, you know.

[00:56:23]So, yeah. No, I wouldn't um I wouldn't change anything. I really wouldn't.

[00:56:29]>> Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your for your time and for your sort of cander and openness. It's uh it's really good to be able to talk to somebody who's using what they've been through um as a way of making positive changes.

[00:56:43]>> Thank you. Yeah. Well, you keep doing what you're doing, too. I know that you're you're helping a lot of people.

[00:56:48]So, um, thanks for doing this. It's good to see you.

[00:56:51]>> Yeah. Thank you.

[00:56:53]>> Dan Carcillo didn't just survive his battle with CTE, he found a way through it.

[00:56:59]Part of that journey led him to found experience onward, a legos psilocybin wellness community based in Colorado and Oregon offering guided therapy retreats, individual experiences, and micro doing programs, all with physician oversight and traumainformed care. If Dan's story resonated with you, learn more at experienceonward.com.

[00:57:22]We hope you enjoyed today's conversation with Dan and Dr. Victoria Silverwood.

[00:57:26]This is exactly the kind of story we started Skates and Scars to tell. The ones that happen after the final buzzer.

[00:57:33]The ones the league doesn't want you to hear. If it moved you, share it with someone who needs to see it. And if you haven't already, hit subscribe. There's a lot more where this came from.