Jordan Williams on the $60M Fletcher Handout

[00:00:00]Okay, the podcast. Why do we do this to ourselves? We force New Zealand companies into the ETS or the emissions trading scheme and then we wonder how come it's got so expensive. We put a price on their emissions. We make it more expensive to produce um goods here when in other countries they don't face these costs. Then we ask them to compete against cheaper imports from countries that don't face those costs. What's going on? Why do we put such barriers in place? We wonder why they struggle.

[00:00:26]It's killing us. It just cost us $60 million. Tax bars banning out Golden Bay cement. Who's next? Let's freeze the ETS. Put it on hold. Jordan Williams will join me shortly. Let's go.

[00:00:38]>> With Duncan, [music] >> Jordan Williams is with the taxpayers union. Got some strong views on this. He joins us now. Jordan, good day.

[00:00:46]>> Good day, Duncan. Great to see you.

[00:00:47]>> 60 million bucks corporate welfare to um to um Golden Bay, which is Fletchers really. Did they have any choice?

[00:00:54]>> Yes, they did. You know, let's let stand back. This is your right firstly you're right to call it corporate welfare because it is you work hard you pay your taxes and what's happened here is that the government has come along and has written a check to fix a problem for which the government created with the ETSs it's you know I you can accept the reason why can differ on whether Golden Bay is a strategic asset we don't even need to go there let's accept that it is that here you have a big industry player coming along with their big town lobbyists saying to the government, look because of the emissions trading system, we are uncompetitive, we can't compete against international competition that don't price their emissions. So therefore, please write us a check. Now, firstly, there's the politics of it.

[00:01:52]This is what uh the re this is the reason why the nets are doing so poorly that when you stand for nothing you get run over. This is no different to what previous governments have done and this government had was elected on a mandate to stop the overspending to stop wasting money and that you know times are serious. We need the adults back in charge looking after taxpayer money.

[00:02:19]Hasn't happened. But what they failed to do is address the fundamental question and that is why is are these uh businesses uncompetitive. It's because we put in place an emissions trading system based on the assumption that the rest of the world were going to price emissions. That has not happened.

[00:02:41]>> So it's a massive layer of cost then Yep.

[00:02:45]at why are we not turning and this is the failure from the government. Why are they not turning into their mind on the emissions trading system and not tying the cost falling on New Zealand businesses onto our international trading partners because the assumption was that they would price emissions. They have not.

[00:03:08]Even the Europeans are rolling back uh the uh environmental um uh regulations and uh uh pricing of emissions. We should at minimum be putting that under review rather than what they're doing right now, which is well, you're pretty well colle uh well connected. You your expensive lobbyists have managed to convince us that you're a strategic asset and so we're going to get the taxpayer check book out to fix the problem that the government has created.

[00:03:44]>> Won't be the last time and it won't be the last company. There's a whole heap of other companies in there who are looking at this now going hang on a second. This is a layer of cost that we can't afford either. Where are you for us? Where were they for the mills last year with high electricity prices? You start with one, you go with them all.

[00:03:57]>> Bang. Bango. And it's not the big blue chip um you know fletchers that you got to worry about. You know they have the you know the the the the legal teams, the economic advisers. In this case it was Deote um and the government affairs uh contractors and internal teams. It is the company that you've never heard of that is facing the identical issues. the people losing their jobs because New Zealand's industry is uncompetitive because of the emissions trading system and the environmental regulation. Um uh we are forced to pay for you know this is the reality of why New Zealand is getting comparatively poorer >> and and and this is this is only one of the one of the bits of red tape if you like or one of the bits of you know the administration that that's getting in the way. There's there's a heap more as well. And if you look at this, I think they need to freeze it. They need to freeze the ETSs as it stands. The Greens be laughing at this. This is their policy. This is what they would do.

[00:05:01]Well, it it it's this idea and it and it's it's actually just decadence. this idea that New Zealand should basically go it alone or this reveal, you know, we need to be good international citizens and basically we're going to be poor, export our industry overseas because of, you know, the vibe and the feeloods that, you know, the taxpayer union, we've always supported the ETSs. Your objective is to cut emissions. Your objective is to find the least expensive way to do it and a market-based solution. Totally support that. better than tax sorry than than um politicians picking and choosing. But at the moment we got the worst of all worlds because again that is all based on the assumption that our international trading partners will eventually do the same thing. And progress isn't not only is progress not being made. Uh even the the the best stress Europeans are walking backwards on this stuff and it is time New Zealand put this under review. I'd actually keep the ECS as a framework, >> but try the availability of um of units to the price of emissions or or the um uh the extent to which emissions are being priced overseas. We see you have Yep.

[00:06:22]>> Yep. We're on our own. I mean, we've we've literally just put a massive barrier in place at a time when it's hard enough to to make money in business. At a time which there's enough barriers in place at the moment. We've just put another layer in there. I I thought I thought this was a government that was in touch with business that Lux understood this. He ran an airline.

[00:06:38]>> Mr. Lux said Mr. Lux said it is go for growth. Remember that that was everything was going to be through a growth lens. And what they are doing in order to avoid the tough political question which is frankly taking on the Greens in order to avoid the tough question they are taxing New Zealanders more or borrowing it in this case. So it'll be our kids that that pay it back.

[00:07:03]All costs jobs in order to save one company, the jobs in one company. But that is not why you should be in parliament. That is picking winners.

[00:07:15]What you should be doing is asking and and they freely admit this that the that in this case it is totally uneconomic as a direct result of the emissions trading regime.

[00:07:27]>> Decarbonize. And I remember when the initial trading regime came in and the whole assumption was it would be progressively tougher >> but based on the assumption that the rest of the world would go there and the rest of the world isn't Duncan because they're waking up.

[00:07:43]>> They're getting serious about uh the the ability to earn money to grow your economy and actually you know um uh um make the grocery bills. I don't think I think to or we're going to continue to sleepw walk into being comparatively poor. This is what that looks like.

[00:08:01]>> I I I don't think um I don't think Luxon has um I think he's blindly followed what the bureaucrats from the previous administration who were advised in the previous administration signed up to and we can't you look at Luxon's um statements on all this stuff on on on international obligations, everything. I mean, he's right up their ass. Well, I think Nicola Willis um who was asked about this this morning on Mike Hosking's show and the crocodile tears about well, you know, this was a very hard decision and it wasn't a nice decision, but ultimately they took the same decision that the Labour party would make and they because they're too pucilanimous and this is a this is just describes Nicola Willis too pucilanimous which is a very polite way of saying lacking courage or or gutless uh to actually tackle the real issue is that the emissions trading scheme is making New Zealand poorest or no upside because in this case it would simply shift the emissions uh overseas to places where environmental standards are far worse have don't charge for emissions. Uh so instead she's gone out your checkbook, the taxpayer checkbook and says we're going to just do a special favor just just for Fletchers.

[00:09:20]>> But it was a very difficult decision and you should feel sorry for us. You know, you should don't you worry, Mr. Hosking.

[00:09:26]Don't you worry, Mr. Garner. You know, Nicola Willis, Chris Bishop, they say that, you know, this wasn't this was done with much reluctance.

[00:09:34]>> They should have said to um they should have said to um Fletcher, stay there.

[00:09:39]We're going to freeze the CTS and we're going to go with a statement to the market and to the world that says when you go we'll go but not not right now.

[00:09:46]So see you later you know.

[00:09:48]>> Well there is also a halfway house of um you could go back to a regime where you were giving industry credit >> uh to particular entries where where they are facing this but again that is pickle that's politicians picking winners.

[00:09:59]>> Yeah. you know that that us being the frontier or you know running it running the economy like a kamicazi pilot to be poor for the sake of well you know we're going to make a 0.00001% 0001% difference of um of the temperature. Uh it is nuts and I think that the electorate get it. They are over it. And this is why those sort of mainstream conservative parties around the world that have basically you know tried to be um a a teamo version of the Greens are being smashed.

[00:10:35]>> Yeah, they are. And and you see I mean this is the sort of thing Grant Robertson would have done. This is this is this is what this is what he did his whole career. Absolutely. He he every day there was another $60 million bucks that went down. I remember in the first few months I thought, where's this money coming from? It was it was every day there was another another $100 million check going to some industry or somewhere, you know.

[00:10:52]See, the thing is with Nicola Willis is that she gets it. You know, she talks about, you know, it was a very difficult decision. It's almost as if she wants to go to heaven, but she's just not willing to die.

[00:11:04]>> Well, we all are like that, aren't we?

[00:11:06]But but but but I know you I know you I don't think Nichol What tough decision has nickel would have taken ever that the tough decision would actually be even to put it under review and have a serious honest discussion with New Zealand about whether our emissions trading regime is still sensible in 2026 when actually our emissions are you know our um you know New Zealand on a per head it's actually very good because we've got mostly renewable electricity where most of our emissions are is cow parts um and that is we have to they sit under our country is quotas because they happen here when actually the creating it is the consumers eating meat. Um that that's sort of always been the elephant in the room in this area but here with industrial uh it is based on the assumption that the rest of the world was going to was going to do it and they're not.

[00:12:02]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. Um just finally um um did Luxon get this do you think? I mean this guy ran an airline. You think he you think he'd understand a bit about this?

[00:12:12]>> Oh, look, I think you're being far too hard. Um, I mean, the in New Zealand that um that and I noticed they've got an incredible recycling program.

[00:12:23]>> Yes.

[00:12:24]>> To make them sustainable. I mean, they don't their business model, you know, it might be based on um zipping through the air, burning dinosaur juice. Um but, you know, we'll we'll try to ignore that. Um we're going to we've got a great recycling program and you know, Mr. Luxon's case when I first met Mr. like I said, I'm not sure you're going to be a great going to be going to do well in politics given that you've um banned newspapers from the coral lounge. You know, how could you do well with those?

[00:12:50]>> It's like those it's like those um you know those I think it was in the public service a number of years ago they put those little waste baskets on everyone's everyone had a waste basket on their desk, you know, for recycling.

[00:12:58]>> That's right. And they took away the bins. You can only recycle, >> you know, you take take home your own apple corn.

[00:13:04]>> That's ridiculous. Um always good to speak to you. Good luck with flying jet star today. Um, it's carbon emissions, but no doubt you've paid tax somewhere, >> man. Mad to the people of Jet Star. It's it's it's being more proving more reliable at the moment.

[00:13:15]>> Probably is actually >> and half the price.

[00:13:16]>> Yeah, you you'll get there by tomorrow.

[00:13:18]Okay, mate.

[00:13:18]>> And and you don't have to pay for it.

[00:13:19]You don't have to pay for it twice with a taxpayer subsidy as well. Okay, I'm out. Cheers.

[00:13:24]>> Editor and chief [music] with Duncan.

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[00:14:08]We'll keep doing these stories. Keep shining the light on these stories. And um remember life dress rehearsal. No curtain raiser. This is it. We live the best place on earth. Get out and enjoy.

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[00:14:29]Thanks, folks. Tada. editor and chief with Duncan Ghana. [music]