He Calls Lithuania Home, But Will Lithuania Accept Him?

[00:00:00]right to be here is conditional and someone out there at any point can decide that you know it's time for me to go and I will have nothing to say about it.

[00:00:16]You know people don't think that I'm a foreigner. I'm I'm carrying a lot of hurt from the time I was in Kipida and the rejection I felt from locals. I don't feel like I belong if people around me idolize Russia.

[00:00:30]>> Ivan Trunov came to Lithuania as a teenager.

[00:00:36]He learned Lithuanian from zero, finished school here, studies astrology in Lithuanian, built his career here and became active in society and now sees Lithuinia as his only home.

[00:00:50]>> But a story is not just about integration. It is about what happens when you give a country your life, >> your work, your language, your identity and still wonder, >> whether you fully belong.

[00:01:07]>> Lithuania is the place where I came to terms with my sexual orientation as a gay guy. foreigners are likely to be contributing half of uh Lithuanian GDP growth. I'm in charge of the largest survey of um foreigners ever conducted in the history of Lithuania.

[00:01:33]>> Welcome to today's episode of Life as a Foreigner. Today's guest is from Russia.

[00:01:38]Ian, you were born in Russia, came to Lithuania as a teenager, learned Lithuanian from scratch, finished school here, and you even studied sociology in Lithuanian.

[00:01:54]>> Yeah.

[00:01:54]>> Built a career here, became active in society, and then now you are asking for Lithuanian citizenship because you say Lithuania is your only home. But I want to ask you a question. After all that, do you still feel like you have to prove that you belong here?

[00:02:17]>> I mean, when people usually meet me, they think that I'm local and they they just assume that I'm a local Russian speaking minority.

[00:02:28]um maybe from you know Clya itself or from business district it you know people don't think that I'm a foreigner so I I blend in I I pass as a foreigner I also don't have um an accent when I'm speaking Lithuanian unless I'm trying to have an accent I'm learning a little bit about what it means to speak Lithuanian with a little bit of an accent I had a very fascinating conversation about it couple of years ago like we don't really have a culture of speaking Lithuanian with an accent either you speak perfectly or people are not entirely comfortable you know I I I feel like that's also a very interesting aspect about how the relationship people have Lithuanian but you know people don't think that I'm a foreigner so they don't interact with me as as a foreigner they don't really point it out. But um at the same time I you know my even though I have a permanent residence permit fundamentally my right to be here is conditional and someone out there at any point can decide that you know it's time for me to go and I will have nothing to say about it.

[00:03:52]So that's, you know, I think that's something every foreigner has on on their minds. Uh, and that's something I'm thinking a lot about right now doing this last step uh in the quote unquote integration journey. And um I think this is about making sure that this is my home no matter what happens, no matter what decisions, no matter um behaviors, it's it's my home and period. M >> so I think this is what the last step is about and you know for me it it has been more than 11 years living here and so much has happened and uh you know the integration journey is so much more than is he learning a language yes no does he have education yes no does he have a job yes no it's so much more than that >> and um this is Why? Uh in addition to my citizenship application, I have added some additional appendices and access to the application and most notably the motivational letter. it. It's a recommendation I received from a lawyer I consulted and she she thought, "Hey, you can just uh explain your story and show how how much you're able to speak Lithuanian and and put it down on paper to have it as a document." So, I added a motivational letter to my citizenship application where I explained who I am, my experiences, my journey here in Lithuania, and the result of this journey.

[00:05:42]and specifically left links to video recordings of me speaking Lithuanian on camera so no one has any doubts about my language skills.

[00:05:54]>> You'd like to be extra.

[00:05:57]>> Uh but you know that's also some of the aspects about you know what it means to be a foreigner. I think sometimes you do have to be extra in order to have the same as what locals have, but you know, you have to be super extra in order to to have access to to some benefits or some well-being aspects of life that locals just have easier access to.

[00:06:27]>> Yeah. Right.

[00:06:31]When they ask you why you came to Lithuania, you jokingly say to leave, that is nice. Very nice. But when did Lithuania stop feeling like a foreign country and start feeling like home for you?

[00:06:47]>> I think it was in my bachelor years.

[00:06:51]Uh I I think it started when I realized that there is no other place about which I know so much. I know so much about Vnos, about Calipa. I know a lot about Lithuanian politics.

[00:07:07]I uh I understand the language. I read the news. And uh this realization hit me about maybe like second third year of my bachelor studies that I just know so much. And when I think about stuff that's happening outside of Lithuania, I have no clue. I have have no clue about what's happening in Russia right now. I don't know. I I don't really care. I don't read the news. I meet I come visit my parents sometime maybe like a couple of times per month. They they also live here in in Vnos.

[00:07:49]>> Oh, nice. Yeah, that's I'm very glad we were able to all move together and um you know and we talk uh and and they talk with me about uh you know the the news from the front um the democratic front against Putin.

[00:08:09]That is the the news of Ukrainian defense against the invasion. uh that side of the front. Um and uh we we talk about Lithuanian news as well because they they also want to know more about that. They understand, you know, more the eastern side of the political sphere and I understand the Lithuanian side of the political sphere.

[00:08:36]Um, so I think that's how I come to came to understand that, you know, this is my home because I have no clue what's happening outside of it.

[00:08:48]>> You came here together with them.

[00:08:50]>> Um, >> or you came and later they came.

[00:08:52]>> It's it's a bit complicated. I was here the whole time, but my parents were more mobile. They were spending more time back in Russia in our first years here.

[00:09:04]But um later they also moved fully >> okay >> to Lithuania.

[00:09:08]>> So they are basically the reason you came. You didn't even know about Lithuania. They they were coming or they made you come.

[00:09:17]>> Uh it was a decision we made together and you know I was I was a teenager back then and uh my parents asked me directly you know what do you think about uh potentially leaving Russia?

[00:09:33]Um, we are considering it right now and we want to know what you think about it and as a as a child, as a teenager, to me that sounded like a fun adventure, you know, I was a teenager and and I thought because at that time I was living in in a tiny village in Russia. I thought, oh, the internet would probably be better.

[00:09:58]This this is literally my entire thought about uh moving to another country. Um and uh it it was a bit of a complicated process. Uh it it took a while before we settled in Lithuania in particular.

[00:10:13]First we moved to Latvia.

[00:10:16]uh but we were not able to to settle down but uh we were able to successfully settle in Lithuania and we didn't move elsewhere ever since.

[00:10:28]>> Do you by any chance know why it was it was okay or you settling in Lithuania became successful rather than you settling in Latia or you were too young to know.

[00:10:42]>> We we were able to get the residence permit easier here. So uh this is why we decided okay Lithuania is where we make our stand. And um both for me and for my parents we were thinking long term. We were we decided that you know we are not going back to Russia. Uh actually a little bit about the um the uh context because when Lithuanians think about Russians and Bellarusians who moved to to Lithuania um I don't think people really understand no the perspective that we're coming from. My parents they have always been against the regime. They have always been against Putin. They were supporting the oppositional media. They were following the the events of uh Balotna Square. They they you know they were really invested in the democratic movement and in the um activism uh pro-democratic activism within Russia.

[00:11:52]And in in light of that um they were devastated to hear the news that Putin was reelected in 2012.

[00:12:01]No matter uh no matter the huge protests that were happening all across the country and incredible mobilization from the opposition media as well at the time. And um they thought that you know if there was such an effort to oust him and he was reelected with landslide numbers which are which are incredibly unrealistic.

[00:12:32]This country is not going in the right direction. No it was it was before annexation of Crimea. It was before Maidan. It was 2012.

[00:12:42]And this is the point in time when my parents became really scared of where Russia was heading. That was more than 10 years ago. And this is when they chose made a decision that Russia is not a place where to build the future for for the family, for themselves and for me.

[00:13:06]So they decided to explore opportunities to to leave and we were able to do that.

[00:13:11]they think in uh 20 2000 2014 or something like that. Yeah, I was around 15 I think.

[00:13:22]>> Um first to Latia then to Lithuania.

[00:13:27]Um and uh that was a very conscious choice uh with uh years of thinking behind it and uh to think that I am in in some way an agent of Putin or a danger to national security and you know even even thinking about what my family suffered from from the regime and from the government in '90s.

[00:13:57]uh and the baggage of hurt and and the experiences my family uh have from just living there uh and uh then based on all that deciding that there is no future.

[00:14:14]No, that's this this is not a light decision and it's a decision made way before the war, way before annexation of Crimea, way before Ukraine was even on international media anyway.

[00:14:29]Uh and and here we are.

[00:14:33]>> Do you speak Russian?

[00:14:35]>> Of course. Yeah.

[00:14:36]>> Okay. Yeah. because >> even though even though with a very noticeable accent now >> I spoke to a Russian not long ago. So after we had after we met and we spoke about their life here, what they were doing, why they left Russia, it was obvious that they left Russia for the same reason you and your family left. So then I met another another friend who is Lithuanian and we were just discussing this other Russian that I spoke to.

[00:15:08]The Lithuanian was really angry at the Russian for being here. So he really hated the fact that there were Russians here. Like to him he hated no other nationality or he was against no other nationality for being here except Russians. So I was like why? He said, "Because of what they what they did to us in the past." So I said, "Yes, a particular government did this to you in the past." And it wasn't that Russian I spoke to. It wasn't their fault that they were born in Russia and they couldn't possibly have the power to magically shape how the government functions. And then the Lithuanian asked me, "Is the Lithuan is the Russian still speaking Russian?" I said, "Yes." Why not? Then he says, "If you are against what Russia is doing, you should stop speaking Russia, Russian." And for me it was so absurd that he said that because I could be Russian by citizenship.

[00:16:12]And the government could be doing something that is extremely bad. It doesn't mean that I should completely erase my culture, who I am. It is the government that is bad. It is not my language. I understand why he could be saying that because for him he lives like he lives in a country like Lithuania where everyone here is Lithuanian but I come from a country like Ghana there are so many languages.

[00:16:38]>> So for example if the Ghanian government is being cruel and I leave Ghana my style stop speaking my language just because I don't want to call myself a Ghanaian anymore. So, I'm saying this to put it out there that if you're a Lithuanian watching this video, not just Lithuanian, if you are a local in any country watching this video and you feel like someone is from a country that had oppressed your country before is there and you hate them just because you feel like their government did something to you in the past, I feel like your way of thinking is not completely straight. It shouldn't be like that. It's not their fault and they didn't choose to be born where they were born just like how you didn't choose to be born where you are right now. Thank you.

[00:17:29]Okay, let's rewind.

[00:17:32]Um, you came to Lithuania as a teenager.

[00:17:35]>> Yeah.

[00:17:35]>> When people ask you, you say you came to live. People literally move countries for love, for work, but you said you came to live.

[00:17:45]What does that mean when you are just a teenager, 15 years, 16 years? What does that mean to you when you move to a country where they don't even speak the language, you know?

[00:17:56]>> Yeah. Well, you know, as as a child as and as a teenager, I didn't really feel like I belong even back in Russia when I was growing up.

[00:18:08]And um when I was 10, my parents made a choice to escape civilization.

[00:18:14]Basically, they they moved out of uh um the area when I was born, right side of Moscow, right outside of the city itself in the region. And um then we we moved entirely out of the city um in into a wilderness uh with no people only trees, mosquitoes and uh swamps.

[00:18:39]Um and uh at the time I didn't really think much about this. It also seemed like a fun adventure. But what that means is that I fundamentally lost touch with peers, with people of my own age. I was very different from people at the local school for example.

[00:19:01]Uh I had an entirely different perspective, entirely different expectations from life and I didn't really feel any connection with them. Uh and over time I came to normalize that.

[00:19:14]Um and the result is that when I moved here to to Europe to Lithuania and first uh we made the decision to move to Kipida because Clipa has a large Russian speaking minority and we we we had a whole strategy multiple year strategy of for our inclusion in in a new country.

[00:19:38]first going to a Russian speaking school in a Russian speaking area but learning Lithuanian very intensively but then really having enough language knowledge I can move to a Lithuanian speaking environment and this is what I did and it worked um this the strategy worked even though maybe it would be would have been quicker if I would be go would be going uh to a Lithuanian school right at the start but I had very few years to finish school and uh finishing school entirely was a priority rather than quick um quicker uh language acquisition.

[00:20:16]So, you know, yeah, it's it's 11th grade. I have just two more years uh to finish school. I moved to uh a pretty small town all things considered 100,000 people uh into one of the two high schools uh Russian speaking high schools in uh in Galipida and uh what I see there is that people sit you know people sitting by on the same uh by the same tables they are the same people who have been sitting by the same tables from the first grade. Oh, >> you know, uh, everyone knows everyone.

[00:20:55]Um, it's a very small community. Russian speaker, Russian speakers from Russian speaking families in, uh, in Kipa is just like 20,000 people. So, it's like a village within a small city >> essentially. And inside that village, everyone knows everyone and everything.

[00:21:13]They had one primary school, they had two high schools, and this is it. This is the community.

[00:21:19]And uh for me as a newcomer it was very hard to start from scratch in this community. I felt again very distant. I felt very much the same thing things as I was feeling when going to a village school in in the Russian wilderness. I felt very disconnected. But you know kept coming here and starting to build a life I realized that you know this is not just a stop for me. I want to settle down. And I I see that all all those people here who are locals, they have friends, they hang out, they they do do something outside of school. And for me, I'm just hardcore studying all the time.

[00:22:01]And you know, I don't I don't really have friends. I don't know what what to do. And the thing is, I I came into into this without enough skills in order to find a way out out of the situation. So I was incredibly unprepared you know not not just you know just in terms of life skills um so because of my childhood because of my parents political views as well because of their critique of the Russian establishment because of their desire to run away from everything Putin related everything government related uh they run away with me and I was a consequence of But but you know this this this um this context is what I carried with me to to to Lithuania.

[00:22:58]Uh and my time in Kipida was very rough.

[00:23:02]Um not in terms of my outcomes. No, I I I finished what I set out to do. I finished school. I got my diploma and I enrolled into university. That was my goal when I came to Lithuania.

[00:23:16]But it was not a pleasant process and no one really invited me socially. Okay, I had I had my studies but I I did not I did not learn how to invite myself in because that was the situation where I was in. No one really, no one would go out of their way in order to invite me and talk to me and befriend me. I had to know how to invite myself in. And this is not an easy task.

[00:23:52]And I did not have know how to do it.

[00:23:55]And it took me years of just learning, reflecting, and years of psychological consultations, thousands of euros spent into investing into my mental health in order to overcome this. And I'm I'm carrying a lot of hurt from the time I was in Cipida.

[00:24:19]uh and and the rejection I felt from locals.

[00:24:25]Uh I think it's you know I I I say in in a motivational letter that Lithuania is where I grew up and the rejection I felt from my peers in Kipeda is foundational to who I am who I am as a person right now. It really shaped me and uh um it's it's not an easy burden to to to carry and I'm still struggling with it till this day.

[00:24:52]>> You are tough. Yeah, you are tough because well I can't even begin to imagine because well I came here as a grownup so I knew how to carry myself. So me just imagining you sitting in a classroom where people were already friends with one another, you coming in from a country where they don't really like you sitting there trying to just integrate, blend in. I see how tough that might have been. And I I understand how tough you are to be able to overcome that.

[00:25:29]>> But you know, it's it's even more complicated than than that because here is me. My parents hate Putin. My parents hate the regime. I'm not a fan of anything that's happening in Russia. I also I'm invested into the idea of leaving life, stopping living in Russia and investing into my new life. And I'm sitting in the same room where people are considering, oh, Moscow is so cool.

[00:25:52]I want to go study there. Uh, it's so amazing. Oh my god.

[00:25:59]>> Yeah. And and some of them actually after finishing school they moved to Russia.

[00:26:06]>> Uh >> wait we're not really serious. I thought you were joking.

[00:26:09]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:26:10]>> Oh okay. That's interesting >> because it was a Russian speaking school. Uh and um a lot of people really idolized Russia. And to me that was also something that um uh built kind of a wall between me and locals. You know I don't feel like I belong if people around me idolize Russia.

[00:26:34]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:35]>> This is not where I belong.

[00:26:37]>> Okay.

[00:26:41]>> Oh okay. That's interesting. Really interesting.

[00:26:45]M very few people actually stayed.

[00:26:51]A lot a lot left Lithuania after finishing. A lot went to some Europe other European countries.

[00:27:01]Several went to Russia and from my class of like around 30 people only one came to Villos to study. Only one. Um fascinating.

[00:27:14]>> Yeah. quite fascinating.

[00:27:17]>> Interesting. Well, who would have thought that they are Lithuanians that actually have this kind of idea?

[00:27:23]>> Well, they're uh they wouldn't consider themselves Lithuanians.

[00:27:27]>> They they would say that they're Russian minority.

[00:27:30]>> And to them, that's very important.

[00:27:33]I mean, to me, that school was a stepping stone into a larger picture. and I used it for everything it had >> and it it it was not very rich in what it gave me. Um yeah and thinking about you know inclusion and the integration journey. There was one instance of things that happened in this school in particular that derailed my quote unquote integration for a couple of years. I I uh went um to consult a school psychologist because I thought, you know, I'm not feeling well. Uh I I feel disconnected.

[00:28:17]I don't know how to make friends. I want to go to a psychologist and figure out what to do about it. You know, me and my parents, they my parents were always very progressive and uh I I did not have any stigmas about mental health or well-being. I really wanted to figure out how to have a better life. And I came to that psychologist, a a young person. She was very young. She recently graduated from Kipeda University psychology um program. Uh just started her her work. Um and uh I explained, you know, I I feel disconnected. I don't know how to make friends. Um and her response to me basically was you are doing everything right. There is nothing wrong. I have so many people who have it way worse. Uh you know I have students who have violence at home, drunk parents.

[00:29:17]You have it easy and uh and you're doing everything right. Continue with what you do and good luck to you. uh and you know um that's what I did for a couple of years before I went to psychologist again and really started working on myself and you know but that only happened after like 2 3 years of me taking this advice and like okay nothing wrong I guess I I guess this is how life is you're just miserable you don't have friends and you put all your efforts into studies because there is nothing else in life only studies.

[00:30:00]Uh and so this is what I did.

[00:30:03]>> I studied and I studied and I studied and I studied very hard. And uh you know speaking about integration, we talk about language learning. We talk about befriending locals. We talk about I I don't know like not not traveling back to your home country because your home country is evil and and this is how politically integration is imagined. And for me, integration would have been a psychologist sitting down with me and explaining what life skills I'm lacking in order to overcome additional barriers that I do have as a foreigner, starting with scratch from scratch in a new place and really sitting down with me and working through, you know, things I can do in order to learn and grow and and involve myself and um being more aware.

[00:31:04]>> You had two teachers in Jalakano Gimnasia, I hope I'm pronouncing it right, >> who invested 2 years preparing you for the Lithuanian exam? What did they see in you that made them invest this much time? And was there ever a time, even a single moment, that they or even you doubted that you were not going to make it? M um what they saw in me they saw me money because I was paying them.

[00:31:38]Um so I had one uh tutor and one teacher she was just teaching regular classes.

[00:31:46]So these are the two teachers. regular classes were happening in Lithuanian and they were talking about, you know, literature in the 19th century, 20th century, about Balraa, about about like and Lithuanian writers and so on and you know about the the culture, the the activists that were uh advocating for liberation, um about the advent of Lithuanian national identity And that's that's where I learned, you know, about Lithuanian history, culture, and so on. And uh during regular classes, I was just sitting there and and transcribing, trying to listen to words, recognize them, and just be immersed in the language environments.

[00:32:35]But in addition to that, I I had uh classes with a private tutor. I think at least once uh a week, maybe a couple of times a week. I remember I was paying €5 for each consultation, but that was 11 years ago. So, I mean that's that was okay money because teachers were getting like 500 salaries back then. It um times have changed quite a bit. Um and uh I was paying for this um uh for these tutoring classes for a couple of years.

[00:33:10]So, you know, I was I was really trying hard to prepare for the exam. And um you know, in back there back then we had two versions of the Lithuanian language exam. The state level exam and the school level exam. the state level exam.

[00:33:29]In order to pass, you would have to write a a decent essay and also not um uh breach not not make too many grammar mistakes. So in order uh to pass the state level exam, you have to know grammar and you have to know make little mistakes. But for the school level exam, it was enough to just put down relevant content on paper. No matter how it's written, just have good structure of the essay itself. Put down relevant wellargumented thoughts and no matter grammar, it was enough. So I I talked with teachers um uh I I talked with uh people who knew the like whole process and and the examination procedure and that was our decision that in 2 years it is realistic to learn enough Lithuanian to pass the school level exam but not the state level exam. What that meant is that I was not able to study for free in the university, but I had a right to admit uh to to submit my application to university and be admitted.

[00:34:50]But recently, couple of years ago in Lithuania, that was changed. Right now, you can only um have a right to be admitted into higher education only when you pass the state level exam. And that means much higher requirement for language skills. So if I would come to Lithuania right now in the same situation, everything is the same.

[00:35:20]I would not be able to study higher education and what that means that I would have probably left to another EU country to study elsewhere because I would have such an opportunity and I would not have an opportunity to study in Lethonia and to think about how even though so much time passed and for people in my situation things right now are worse. This is just crazy. It's mindblowing.

[00:35:50]And at my work, I work as a sociologist and I research migrant inclusion. And recently we received a an email from a person who have lived in Lithuania for 3 years. She came to study in the high school from 9th till 12th grade. She she recently passed the the same exam that I passed. And and she she she says, "Look, I still I cannot study. I still cannot study. What can I do? I don't know what to do. Can can you explain some suggestions or can you help me in any way? And you know it it was really devastating to see that a person in in the same situation right now has it so much worse. Um but I was able to pass the state of the school level exam and then go on.

[00:36:46]So this person, what are they going to do? The person who reached out to you recently, >> you have to change national regulation.

[00:36:57]>> Uh yeah, but um obviously they don't have the right to change the national regulation. So they must pass that Lithuanian exam, >> Lithuanian state level exam.

[00:37:06]>> Yeah. To be honest, Lithuanian is not the most easy language. It's not the easiest language on earth. So this lady or this girl, is she going to move out of Lithuania? I'm just asking so that someone in the same situation would know what someone else has done and it will probably give them some idea.

[00:37:24]>> Well, at the moment you would have to pass the Lithuanian state language exam >> or >> or move on. Okay. All right.

[00:37:33]>> Yeah. I um for example there is this uh Ukrainian international school and um the uh director of the school is a huge franophile. She likes everything about French and France.

[00:37:47]uh and uh that's her strategy like the strategy of the whole school to provide as much French language lessons and to encourage Ukrainians Ukrainian children who are currently studying here in in Lithuania to encourage them to go study higher education in France.

[00:38:10]That's the whole format of the school.

[00:38:12]They're actively preparing students to be able to do that. And this is crazy to to have so many talented young people and to refuse to get benefit from that.

[00:38:28]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:29]>> It's delusional.

[00:38:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's really why Lithuania is not taking advantage of that. Yeah.

[00:38:34]>> And Ukrainians.

[00:38:37]>> Yeah. Right.

[00:38:38]>> Yeah. And you know you you can talk to this uh you can talk to this uh director of the school and she will tell you plainly this is her strategy.

[00:38:50]Uh Lithuania is not making it any easy for the those young people to get a higher school education and she's also taking advantage of the situation. I wonder why Lithua is doing that.

[00:39:04]Hopefully in the future we get a policy maker to explain why they tightened the law so much.

[00:39:10]>> Yeah. You said for your Lithuanian exam, you memorized Lithuanian word for word because you couldn't speak Lithuanian freely yet. Looking back, do you feel proud, sad, or emotional about it?

[00:39:26]>> I I it's not about the essay but the speaking part because the exam was in two parts. the speech and then I had to write an essay. So, uh I memorized the speech because I had to prepare the speech. I also had a couple of questions.

[00:39:46]I I don't know. I don't remember about the questions but uh I remember I I wrote the speech together with my tutor.

[00:39:53]We uh we went through the grammar. We made sure that the structure is sound and I remember I I chose a very sociological topic actually about whether uh the times the historical times shape the things that literary authors are interested in or it's the authors that think about ideas and then influence the times. So it's a very sociological question because it's about the relationship between the environment and the individual.

[00:40:28]Um and it's it's it's fascinating how I was interested in something like this even before. Um and you know the memorizing the speech was just something I had to do because I I wasn't able to to just speak it. Uh I had to memorize but you know it's it's a thing people do. I don't like memorizing speeches. I usually improvise. I have bullet point list of topics I want to touch. And I'm doing much worse if I memorize the speech. But in that situation, that's just it was unavoidable. I I had to memorize it >> and I got I think like a nine. It was a fine. It was fine.

[00:41:07]>> That's amazing. But you understood everything in that speech, right? So if they asked you question, you were able to ask. Oh, then I mean >> it was my content. It was my ideas. But I was talking with my tutor about how to write it specifically and to how to pronounce it, how to not make mistakes and so on. So it was a decent speech but you know several people worked on it technically.

[00:41:31]Um and and then uh and then was the essay. Uh for essay you don't have the topic beforehand.

[00:41:40]you know the number of literary works that you have to understand and know in order to um have content to write about but the topic you you only learn it at the day of the exam. So I could not have a prepared uh text. I had to write it on the spot. And I remember at the time when I was writing it, I had enough uh vocabulary in order to just write everything myself. Um I knew that um during the exam, the school level exam, there was one um uh dictionary that was in the class and students can lend it from each other for a certain time. uh but there was only one book and uh I thought ah it's fine I would probably have access to the dictionary if if I have some questions or if I would have some trouble with recollecting how to phrase something or how to write something I would be able to to use the dictionary but what happened during the exam is that this dictionary was with my course the with my other peer students who were writing the same exam together with they they had it all the time and I was not able to to lend it from them. So I had to write without the dictionary and and I wrote it. Uh it was fine. I I got a passing grade and and I I was done with it.

[00:43:15]>> So you passed our exam without a dictionary while some people some classmates that were born here needed a dictionary to pass the exam.

[00:43:25]Did that moment change how you see yourself?

[00:43:31]>> I think it was a bit similar to what I remember uh when I was going to to village school in Russia. I I when I was leaving school um back in 7th 8th grade in Russia and I talked to my other peer students, you know, what what do you want in life? what are your plans after you finish? And a lot of them uh h jokingly but also seriously responded, oh, I'm just going to drink myself to death.

[00:44:05]>> Oh.

[00:44:06]>> Um and I realized, you know, I this is so far from what my expectations from life are. People are just in another universe.

[00:44:20]And um you know especially when I when I moved and when um I understood that I I had I have an opportunity to dig uh put roots and stay here. I was very driven to to study to to get into the university to get some sort of degree and that just shows the the gap of um motivation.

[00:44:55]>> Yeah, >> I was very driven. Um, I have I have like like thick uh textbooks fully written with like tables, grammatic structures, ending like I I have a lot of pages of handwritten Lithuanian language notes and it was literally 2 years of non-stop intensive work and to think that uh for example from students who have studies, work, potentially even family obligations to expect that they magically learn Lithuanian at A2 right now and without even having a good infrastructure for them to do so to learn because we don't really teach Lithuanian very with high quality to foreigners. not even having that, not even having a good resources to teach Lithuanian to foreigners and to expect cosmic results.

[00:46:00]And in my case, you know, I was sitting there for 2 years and learning Lithuanian was one of my primary jobs. I was doing it as a job. Uh my employer was my parents. I was getting money for it and that was my job. I was sitting down and learning and after 2 years I wasn't able to speak. I wasn't speaking freely. I was I I knew just enough to write a 400word essay.

[00:46:32]That that was the result and this is the result that I was working for 2 years and only after getting into university and being in the university for a couple of years. So after 4 years of mo after moving to Lithuania after 4 years of learning the language this is when I started to speak uh that you know it's years of effort thousands of euros it's it it is not easy it is doable but it is not easy and I don't think that Lithuanian is much more difficult than than other languages. Well, for example, German, English, people, a lot of people know it and they've spent their whole lives learning it in school, from from media. But Lithuanian, you just you you have to start from scratch. And I think that's why it's a bit more difficult.

[00:47:34]But in terms of grammatic structures, Lithuanian has Slavic grammatic structures. If you know a Slavic language, you know Lithuanian grammatic structures.

[00:47:44]the the word um the uh syntax the the ordering of words is very very similar pretty much the same pronunciation is almost exactly the same as in Russian the locals really don't like when I say that but it's true pronunciation is very similar barely any difference and uh in terms of grammar it's basically Polish or or Belarusian or or very similar to Russian even though Russian is the least Slavic of the Slavic languages but comparing to Polish Slovak check you know it's it's very similar um so I think it's a little bit of a of an narrative with its own purpose and effect um to be to be seeing that Lithuanian is very difficult I I mean, is it more difficult than Norwegian?

[00:48:47]I don't think so.

[00:48:49]It's basically the same as Norwegian.

[00:48:52]>> I think like in the in the grand scheme of things.

[00:48:56]>> Yeah. And I guess it depends on the person, too. So, you said two things that I really want to talk about. Um, about the language thing. Yes. It depends on the person because personally I'm Ghanian and Lithuanian does Lithuanian doesn't sound like anything I've heard in my life. The structure everything is different because in my language we barely have he and she.

[00:49:19]>> For example, if I want to say he said, I would say or say. And if I want to say she said, I would say or say.

[00:49:27]>> So there's no he, there is no she. It's the context that makes you understand that is a he and a she. Then I come to Lithuania and for Lithuania there is feminine, there is masculine and even the ways for me it's just a lot.

[00:49:42]>> Yeah, it actually it is my opinion that it would be harder for you for example to learn Russian than Lithuanian because Lithuanian has slightly more straightforward grammatic rules, >> but Russian has a mess. It's it's it's a mess. Um, and also things are pronounced less than compared to how they're written. Especially like o and ah.

[00:50:09]Sometimes it's written o and it's pronounced ah. Sometimes it's an ah and it's pronounced.

[00:50:16]So it's I think Russian is more complicated than Lithuanian for a person who is coming from entirely different language group.

[00:50:24]>> Okay, I see. And then again you mentioned that Oh, did you want to say something? Uh it's it's just I don't think people talk about this.

[00:50:33]>> Yeah, they don't. They don't. And it's funny how some foreign some locals expect you to magically know the language. They ask you, "How long have you been here?" You say it and they're like, "And you still don't speak fluently. How can you still not know how to construct basic sentences?" It's not easy. We are trying. It's just not working out. Yeah.

[00:50:55]>> Okay. So you said you grew up in Lithuania into an adult, not just physically but emotionally and intellectually.

[00:51:07]Who did Lithuania make you become?

[00:51:10]>> Myself.

[00:51:12]>> In what sense?

[00:51:14]>> Uh a responsible democratic citizen without citizenship.

[00:51:19]Um, I mean people talk about democratic values, but I think I have a very unique perspective on what that means because from my childhood I see the psychological, physical and you know the the multi-dimensional impact of living in in a authoritarian regime and having no hope. And what it does to people, what it does to to divide people, what it does to to break them, to to make sure that they don't have dreams, they don't put effort, they just exist.

[00:52:16]And I think there's just so much more to life than this.

[00:52:21]And um I've learned to expect things. I've I've learned what's possible, what we can strive for and uh the method how to do that from participation from uh um organizing uh getting together standing up for for yourself for your interests because I mean democracy promises a lot but it also requires participation.

[00:52:56]a lot of it on so many different levels.

[00:53:00]And I was learning it. I was learning it by example, by being involved in a lot of different university initiatives, being involved in the student union, uh starting to work, um having classes about civil society, about politics, about how societies function.

[00:53:27]I've I've learned a lot and uh it's studies, sociology studies, my experiences that I'm bringing with me, you know, about how how things can be different and how much worse it is um and how much worse it can be. I think it really motivates me to to seek for better things.

[00:53:55]And um so that's one thing uh a responsible democratic u citizen.

[00:54:02]Another thing being more free um free to express myself. Also Lithuania is the place where I came to terms with my sexual orientation as a gay guy. And um it it also took me a while even even to to process that being in Lithuania.

[00:54:24]But again I I had I had conditions that helped me go through that especially living in villus having access to diverse uh in university environment and um that that really helped. Um, so I'm a very different person compared to the teenage years.

[00:54:54]Part of it is age, part of it is the environment that I was in and the things that I was able to take. I took as much as I can.

[00:55:07]>> Okay. So you moved from Clyida to Villos to study sociology in Lithuanian for 6 years and then won the president bas scholarship. Then later your your master's thesis became the best in the country. So looking at that like I mean it was like the the best thesis in the country. Looking at that from the outside it looks like a success but what was happening behind the scenes for all these years I I realized that only after I finished my bachelor I think I realized that I had to do so much.

[00:56:01]Um I I guess I was tired, a little bit burned out. Uh but I realized how much I was doing and uh I I was trying to calculate how much I earned and how much I've spent for my studies only on studies itself because I was paying for my studies. Even though I was working, I was receiving motivational scholarship.

[00:56:26]I received a €2,000 euro um uh Brazilus scholarship.

[00:56:33]Um in including all this, I just about broke even. Um uh keeping in mind the fact that I was paying for my studies.

[00:56:48]So it really made me realize that I was running and trying to run fast, but in reality I was in the same spot as basically everyone. So it's like you have to run in order to stand in one place.

[00:57:07]Uh and you you know you you have to cover for some some additional barriers with additional effort.

[00:57:16]So a lot of effort um being exerted and having to pay.

[00:57:24]Uh another another aspect is that I was the I am where I am right now basically pretty much entirely because of the support of my parents. overwhelming unconditional parents invested a lot into me and during my six years I was really able to focus on my studies and I was able to have privilege to pick and choose opportunities where to involve myself.

[00:57:57]So I did not have to work in customer service in order to um make ends meet. I was not forced to do that. I I had the privilege of just sitting down and looking for interesting opportunities being involved in real research uh instead of working in the cafe.

[00:58:19]So, I think that's a a big privilege and it's something I'm aware of and it's something that really contributed to me being where I am today and um being able to receive all of these qualifications and awards because I was able to dedicate time and I don't think even even international students who come here so many of them are not in such an advantageous position you know so many of them are forced to go to work in a in a in a place that doesn't contribute to their their studies because every single time when I chose where I work I was thinking does it contribute to um advance of my career and does it completely align with my studies if it does then I agreed to work there and I think That's a large priv privilege.

[00:59:22]Um, and this is the background be behind their words being able to sit down and dedicate time. When I was writing my bachelor thesis, I was not working anywhere. When I was writing my master thesis, I I also I was not working anywhere. I was just writing my thesis.

[00:59:44]>> Your parents seem like very amazing people. But but also a bit weird.

[00:59:52]Um me not being able to make it in Clay, that's basically on them.

[00:59:58]Parents are supposed to teach you things.

[01:00:00]>> Yeah. But to be honest, I feel like at that point, they were also going through some things that you would not understand.

[01:00:08]>> Yeah.

[01:00:08]>> Yeah. Because for you, you were just a teenage boy.

[01:00:11]>> Yeah.

[01:00:11]>> Trying to depend on them for like everything. Everything. But even adults also have a lot of challenges they go through every day.

[01:00:19]>> Yeah.

[01:00:20]>> Yeah.

[01:00:21]>> I'm I'm very thankful to them. And uh know if I would get citizenship that's their achievement as much as mine. Um and I'm really aware of that.

[01:00:36]>> You know for some people citizenship means just oh like it's just passport for them. But for you, what will Lithuanian citizenship mean?

[01:00:50]>> Being accepted, uh, feeling that I will not lose this home no matter what happens.

[01:01:00]Um, as I, as I mentioned before, a decision can be made that would prevent me from accessing my home, the only home.

[01:01:10]And um I don't want to lose access to home.

[01:01:14]So that's that's basically no choice. I I have to stay in my home.

[01:01:21]>> So you want it to give you a form of security.

[01:01:24]>> Yeah.

[01:01:25]>> Uh-huh.

[01:01:26]>> And part of it is political voice as well being having full democratic powers and uh voice.

[01:01:36]>> Okay. Do you think a person can recognize themselves as a citizen or as part of a country even before that country officially recognizes them as part of them as part of >> I think either it happens at the same time or it does not happen. I I think I we we should be very very harsh on on this particular um aspect even you know professionals because I work in the field of migrant inclusion and that's uh a general understanding that we have among the professionals working in this field that um integration quote unquote is a double-sided process and both sides It's both actions of the host society and actions of the newcomer should be happening at the same time in order for quote unquote integration to happen.

[01:02:42]And um in my case, for example, looking at my experiences, I did not feel like I was socially accepted through ties, friendships, uh opportunities I have with real people.

[01:03:00]But I was accepted in studies. I was receiving good marks. I was encouraged to study more.

[01:03:08]uh I I received very positive remarks from people who learned that I was planning to study and higher education.

[01:03:16]My parents were encouraging my my teachers were encouraging that. So I really feel recognized within the framework of academic achievements.

[01:03:28]But it took me a long time to feel like I was recognized and accepted socially.

[01:03:36]And I I don't really feel like that even now. I I I feel >> Mhm.

[01:03:47]>> distant again. I mean, it's it's something that I'm carrying with me my whole life, but uh it it did not leave me. I do not feel differently now. And u as for example even having a precarious position as a as a foreigner but not really a foreigner. You know I I I go to events where uh that are for foreigners for example by Kamal or uh or someone else and I participate in this conversation and we start talking about politics and I'm like well have you have you seen what Ben Kungka said and like who is Ben Kunas?

[01:04:23]And like sorry if you don't know who is Ben Kun cuz I don't know what kind of conversation we are going to have right now. Are we going to talk forever about how Lithuanians are cold and it takes time for them to open up?

[01:04:38]>> Sorry I've had these conversations for 11 years. There are more to talk about.

[01:04:43]>> Yeah. you know, I I don't feel like I entirely belong in the foreigner spaces like know the joiner stuff like all of the soft um networking events and so on or like expat community. I don't feel like I belong. And locals uh well locals go to their villages on on during celebrations. They they go out. I stay in business.

[01:05:13]Uh I uh well for example uh right now it's uh yininess and I have uh my um birthday at at the same week and a lot of people take take this whole week out. Uh they they they're out they're out in the villages. They're on the countryside and I'm staying in in the in the city. I I I'm I'm content being in the city. I I don't know why I would go to the villages. Well, I don't have family or like grandparents in an exch or something. So, I don't go there. I don't have a reason to. So, I I don't really feel like I'm entirely the same as a local Lithuanian specifically.

[01:06:03]And I don't feel like a foreigner. So, I'm in some sort of weird middle ground.

[01:06:09]Uh and uh well realistically that's how it's always going to be unless I would have children for example here in in Lithuania and this these children can potentially feel entirely local. But I don't think that's something I can escape ever.

[01:06:28]>> You are too you are too local to to feel foreign in the foreign group.

[01:06:35]>> Yeah. and too foreign to feel local in the local space.

[01:06:40]>> Yeah.

[01:06:40]>> So you feel like not even the passport could make you escape this >> passport can really help. Um but uh well for example the flat view of what Russia is >> I think that's not something I can overcome on my own.

[01:06:58]>> Okay. Okay. Well we are completely different personally. Maybe in the future things would change, but as I'm sitting here right now, I have no intentions of becoming a Lithuanian. For some reason, I just want to be Ghanaian.

[01:07:14]And I don't think there would ever come a time that I want to feel local.

[01:07:21]I for some weird reason I want to feel foreign.

[01:07:26]>> Yeah. Here. And as we speak, I feel like when I go back to Ghana, I will feel foreign in Ghana because I've stayed here quite some time. The the Lithuanian ways of doing things has just become so normal for me and if I go and Ghanaians are doing the normal things there.

[01:07:46]>> Yeah.

[01:07:46]>> I'll find it so weird.

[01:07:49]>> Yeah. Well, we put ourselves in the situation. So, it is what it is. And we like the experience. Yeah.

[01:07:53]>> I mean, it it enriches you.

[01:07:55]>> Mhm. But it also makes you different.

[01:07:58]>> Yeah, it does.

[01:08:01]>> You chair the university's LGBT plus um community.

[01:08:08]>> Used to >> Are you used to anymore?

[01:08:10]>> Okay. Not anymore. Okay. And then you speak on LRT.

[01:08:16]How did it when Yes.

[01:08:22]>> Yeah. and you also research on social inclusion.

[01:08:26]It's like you are actively putting yourself out there for Lithuania.

[01:08:31]I want to understand what drives you.

[01:08:33]What drives you to build parts of a country? Because obviously you're not just living here, you are building it like in your own small ways. So what drives you to put yourself out there, do these things, try to improve this country, build part of it for you? I feel like you just want to see Lithuania thrive. You want to see it move forward in a good way. What makes you do that for a country that has not given you passport yet?

[01:09:02]>> I think that's just something I as someone I grew up to be. I believe that better things are possible. Better way of life is possible for everyone. And it makes me irritated and angry to not have it be real, to not live it. Um, and I think in general I'm quite quite an angry person and this anger motivates me quite a lot.

[01:09:29]>> Okay.

[01:09:31]Do you easily get angry or it builds slowly?

[01:09:35]>> Quite easily.

[01:09:36]>> Oh, okay.

[01:09:39]Wait, is it true? Because I'm trying to be careful not to annoy you. Is it true?

[01:09:44]Where is or like what kind of actions easily make you angry?

[01:09:48]>> I'm I'm being selfish about this. I want to understand that >> I know how to behave.

[01:09:53]>> For example, >> if if I think things could be so much easier if only we do these several simple things, but if people don't do them, uh it's Yeah. or like if if me and my colleagues we agree to use our calendar to to mark you know our availability and if someone doesn't mark something in the calendar like why >> okay >> please please use the system we have the system >> yeah yeah yeah well >> behave properly we have the system >> I can relate in this sense because you know I have the African store >> and I have a website, a very functional website that I put so much effort in. I try to make it up to date, so modern.

[01:10:42]You can chat with the bots on the website. You can literally check if something is in stock or out of stock on the website. But then again, also I have the store's number. So it's literally out there on the internet.

[01:10:55]>> Yeah, >> some people have my personal number.

[01:10:58]Then I'm just they call me for example, my child is really frustrating me. Then they call me, do you have plant pains?

[01:11:05]I'm like, oh my god. So the time you take in calling, could you not just search on the website to see if it is there?

[01:11:12]>> Yeah.

[01:11:12]>> But I mean, it's humans. It is what it is, you know.

[01:11:15]>> Yeah.

[01:11:16]>> I think things would be so much better if we had well functioning fair systems and we would use this >> agree. Yeah. Yeah. Agree to behave properly.

[01:11:32]What do you wish Lithuanians understood better about people like you? People who were not born here but have built their entire life here. What do you wish Lithuanians just understood? M well I I recently came uh across a comment on Facebook of like a person uh saying Lithuanian citizenship is a privilege and you should not be comp complaining on like being here is such a privilege and I think because you know I'm a sociologist I research um the structure of migrant population in Lithuania it's 200,000 people. It's likely that around 100,000 people have higher education.

[01:12:20]Out of the uh foreigners living here, absolute majority, for example, working age uh foreigners, 72% are working, which is the same employment rate as locals. There is no difference in employment rate.

[01:12:38]um you know and um the foreigners pay uh each year only in um income tax 300,000 uh €300 million um and just income tax but in addition you know there the there's the uh VAT and additional ways how foreigners can contribute to the economy Uh and recently we had study by the central bank uh saying that uh since the start of the war or like since several years foreigners are likely to be contributing half of uh Lithuanian GDP growth really. So half of it is uh local economic activity and half of it is the contribution of foreigners coming to the country. So if if there were no foreigners, Lithuanian economy would be growing two times slower like instead of 3% 1 and a half% which is basically no growth. Um, so I think I think it's there are benefits and there are opportunities that foreigners have when coming to Lithuania, but also it is also a privilege to be having 100,000 highly qualified foreigners living in the country. It's also a privilege to be receiving more money into your budget.

[01:14:13]It's also a privilege to be having an African store in Ves. It's also a privilege to be having a Syrian store in Ves. It's a privilege to to be eating good falafel.

[01:14:25]There there are benefits on both sides. And each relationship is has two sides to it. And um sometimes as a foreigner you as you come you you don't really know what to expect for example and and how how things can be better you might know not know what to seek and in my situation me coming as a teenager and not knowing how to interact with my peers I came and I wanted to learn and I wanted to be invited but if it's not there if if there is no invitation We might come to learn that the normal is not to be invited and then working against this expectation that's very very hard. So sometimes it's enough to just reach out.

[01:15:24]It's enough when you're writing an email to write an in Lithuanian and below add an English version. Sometimes it's enough. For example, when I was uh employed in the university, uh student representation, uh something that I was advocating for is having all information that is u directed at students be at least in two languages in Lithuanian and in English.

[01:15:52]And it's so weird that it wasn't. So now it is. Now, uh, every single email is in both languages, but sometimes you just need to know, uh, you just need to receive an invitation in your language.

[01:16:10]Sometimes you just need to be told, you know, we have a running club. Can you join? And sometimes this is enough. Um, and some simple things like that are incredibly important because we might be expecting that we are not invited.

[01:16:29]>> Yeah, this makes a lot of sense because even the word Lithuanians could say something and with your basic and little Lithuanian language skills, you could understand it in one way when it's actually something else. Just so putting the the universal English is not really a universal language but at least the widely spoken language in this country among foreigners putting it out there will be very nice.

[01:16:56]>> The widest spoken language among foreigners is Russian.

[01:16:59]>> Oh, it's Russian.

[01:17:00]>> Yes.

[01:17:01]>> Okay.

[01:17:03]>> Statistically speaking, it's not English.

[01:17:06]>> Okay. So, where does English stand?

[01:17:12]probably second although yeah probably second >> okay okay >> but for sure Russian is number one >> I see >> because also there are a lot like 100,000 foreigners are uh labor migrants and a lot of them work as truck drivers 60,000 and truck drivers don't speak English >> they they are mostly primarily Russian speaking and a lot of you skilled but still labor migrants working in like construction or truck driving they they are not English speaking and um uh you know the English speaking bubble and um uh people from Eastern European countries Belarus and Russia who speak English in Vnus the these people are very well connected into you know um information sources media outlets and so on. Uh but uh for example talking with a truck driver living in the dormatory in Chalet that's that's entirely different experience of living in Lithuania and statistically there are a lot of people like this.

[01:18:29]>> Oh okay.

[01:18:30]>> And this is something we are doing right now with our survey. I am in charge of the largest survey of um foreigners ever conducted in the history of Lithuania.

[01:18:41]We are ensuring that all migrant groups are included in the survey and we have questions uh directly adopted from other uh international and national surveys that um would ensure that we would be able to compare for example foreigners and several separate foreigner groups with the general population.

[01:19:01]And uh right now we're trying to talk to more labor migrants and specifically truck drivers because there is no media how we can reach them.

[01:19:13]>> It's only through live contact and going and talking to them.

[01:19:19]>> Oh.

[01:19:20]>> So this is what we're doing right now.

[01:19:21]Today people are in Cho and uh specifically approaching people in the famous dormatory where 16,000 foreigners are declared to be living.

[01:19:32]one building where 16,000 foreigners are declared to be living.

[01:19:35]>> That's that's okay.

[01:19:37]>> Yeah.

[01:19:38]>> Really interesting.

[01:19:39]>> And there are a lot of foreigners there.

[01:19:41]So, >> oh boy.

[01:19:44]>> So, you you have a deeper idea of foreigners living here way more than I ever imagined because my idea of the kind of foreigners living here is very different. I thought most of us spoke English, but I I'm so wrong.

[01:19:58]>> Venus has a bubble.

[01:20:00]>> Mhm. in a way. Yeah. And there are so many foreigners outside of Vinus as well. This is also something that was fascinating to see based on the analysis of registry data that so many foreigners are declared to be living elsewhere. And we have villus is if we are looking at percentage of the population based on declared numbers that are foreigners.

[01:20:21]Villus is number five in Lithuania.

[01:20:24]>> What >> is not number one? Yeah.

[01:20:27]>> Oh my. So is number one >> and >> 16 to 18% of the population.

[01:20:34]>> Okay.

[01:20:35]>> Based on the declared numbers.

[01:20:39]>> Wow. Okay. Okay. Really interesting. But aside, which other cities have a lot of foreigners? SH knows >> electrian.

[01:20:52]>> It's a city in Lithuania.

[01:20:53]>> Yeah. It's between Business and Cavernus. Um, Vaginas Clay.

[01:21:00]Yeah. And Bis number five.

[01:21:03]>> Yeah. Okay. Cool. You know what? I think in the future we would have to invite you someone who has so much in-depth knowledge about foreigners living here and probably a Lithuanian law maker or for policy maker just to come and discuss some of the policies about foreigners living here. I think it would be very nice. I need to get one more of these chairs.

[01:21:29]>> Would be nice.

[01:21:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. So if there is another young foreigner who just arrived in Lithuania or planning to move to Lithuania scared, struggling with the language and really wondering if they would make it in this country, what is your advice to them?

[01:21:48]>> I I was honestly thinking long and hard about this question, but I don't know.

[01:21:56]Um I can only figure out two things, two advice. Fake it till you make it and have rich parents.

[01:22:04]>> Oh, the last one is so unfair.

[01:22:10]>> I I honestly don't know.

[01:22:12]>> I see. You know when So these two things well for people like you, it may work out perfectly. Fake it till you make it.

[01:22:20]You look like Lithuanian. You know, when I entered your DM, my first question was if you're Lithuanian. I don't know if I asked if you're a foreigner or if you're Lithuanian >> because >> yeah, I could never tell that you are Lithuanian if you don't tell me you are not Lithu Sorry, I couldn't tell you're not Lithuanian if you don't tell me you're not Lithuanian. You look just like them.

[01:22:41]>> But someone like me, I don't even need to say it. Everyone would just know that I'm not Lithuanian. So imagine it's me who wants to fully integrate.

[01:22:52]How can I possibly fake it?

[01:22:54]I just step out there and everybody knows so this is a foreigner and I feel like oh my god life is going to be so difficult for me >> but you know it's it's it's a catch 22 problem for example you you can impress people with speaking proper Lithuanian but you have to invest a lot of time >> okay Ian finish the sentence for me being a foreigner in Lithuania has taught me that >> sometimes you have a later start and you have to run harder.

[01:23:29]>> Um and uh it it has taught me who I am.

[01:23:35]You know, we we understand who we are based on maybe differences from others and it's really illuminating and it's um enriching for both sides.

[01:23:50]>> Nice one.

[01:23:52]So, it was really nice to have you here.

[01:23:55]You have no idea how much I learned from you today. It's like you it's it's like your job is literally to study the the foreigners in this country. And for some of us, we just speak from what we see.

[01:24:09]No statist statistical, okay? No statistical background or knowledge about what we we we just put out there.

[01:24:18]So yeah, it's really nice to have someone like you here today. Yeah, I hope we can do this again.

[01:24:25]>> I'll be happy to participate.

[01:24:27]>> Nice. All right, guys. Thank you so much for watching to the end. I will leave his social media handles in the description of this video just in case you want to reach out to him. You know how now you understand how much he knows about foreigners here, right? So, he's the right person. He's him and his organization are the right is the right place to reach out to when you need a lot of more information about foreigners here.

[01:24:52]>> But no legal questions. I'm not a lawyer.

[01:24:55]>> Good.

[01:24:56]It's good you put this one out there like that. Yeah. So guys, I'll definitely see you in the next episode or you will see me. I'm not going to ask you to say goodbye in Lithuania just like other foreigners because I know you know it all. So yeah, goodbye guys.