Episode 21: Digital Age Law Enforcement: A Conversation with Kevin Metcalf

Added: 2026-05-19

[00:00:10]event. There were things that happened.

[00:00:12]I I became aware of that I noticed offensive movements, things that happened in a split second that I had to make decisions to do things. I can do a general write up or I can speak into a system and have AI generate this report.

[00:00:27]AI can look at that and it can organize words and organize thoughts, but it can't feel it doesn't feel the fear. It doesn't feel that I'm about to die. I've got to do something. It doesn't feel the situation. It It can't really articulate all of that. And I I don't think it ever will because it's going to lack that emotional component. Hey everybody, welcome to the Bonafide Mad podcast.

[00:00:51]Good to have you back again this week.

[00:00:53]This week we have Kevin Metaf. I know a lot of you probably heard of him. He uh has been big in the uh cyber world and and uh trafficking uh started off as a uh really in this part I guess as a uh human trafficking response unit and the uh for the Oklahoma AG does a lot of good work. We're looking forward to talking with Kevin this morning. We'll get more into his background. But again this week we'll be talking about everything trafficking men. So much more that Kevin's been involved in. And that was probably not a very good introduction, but I apologize, Kevin, but it's uh it's early on a Wednesday morning. But good to have you, man. Good to have you.

[00:01:30]>> Thank you.

[00:01:31]>> Kevin, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us a little bit about your background, how you kind of came to be in the position you're in now because it's not a position that's probably uh on a straight and narrow path. Comes a lot of crooks and turns.

[00:01:43]>> No, it it's it's been a a crazy ride. So I started off in the in the 80s and working in law enforcement and military.

[00:01:54]Uh so I was in guard and reserve primarily infantry and artillery units.

[00:01:59]Went through officer candidate school became a commission officer there. Uh but law enforcement was really where I I felt drawn. I felt I could do something.

[00:02:10]I could do more. And I've wor worked in law enforcement since the 80s. Even in the military, there was, you know, law enforcement aspects that I did in there.

[00:02:19]So, the the journey, you know, as a young man, I always wanted the the exciting stuff. Uh, so I was doing SWAT team, uh, kicking doors, chasing down criminals, fighting with people, getting shot at, doing, you know, doing all the stuff that that young men typically like to do. Uh, worked in the the Air Marshall Service, you know, trained to confront terrorists on a on an aircraft.

[00:02:41]So got to train with some great uh you know seal you know dev grew and uh a lot of the Delta Force retirees that were out uh they were doing all of our training there at first. So it was it was great exciting a lot of good stuff there. So you go from that that mindset of and and I was doing I did martial arts since I was very very young you know in one one way or another boxing uh various forms of martial arts ground fighting Muay Thai and different things and I was actually involved in some of the early MMA fights when we were still using boxing rings back in the 90s. This is before before it went big and before it was really organized. So that that was kind of my mentality.

[00:03:23]>> Wow. And >> that's that that is impressive >> that oh we used to do like bare knuckle just you know how it was. It was just kind of kind of the the fun the exciting stuff. Uh >> no still looks straight. You must been pretty good. Your nose still looks straight. So >> it's uh it looks straight maybe. I I still every once in a while get in and do a little full contact stick fighting.

[00:03:43]I got a couple of friends of mine that are that are with the dog brothers. So I'll still get in there and do that.

[00:03:48]Although it's it's it's really hard to to heal up and and move anymore, you know, as you get older. getting that that that excitement and the you know the typical focus you know drugs prison and all that when I had died many many years ago now and I so I had my girls by myself since they were four and seven I think >> and I was uh working as as an air marshall so I remember just struggling trying to figure out how to how to manage that and being gone all the time so I had neighbors and overnight babysitters and babysitters I was in London in 2006 or when we had all the bombings going off over there. My it was Thanksgiving here and my overnight babysitter called and I'm in London and they said, "Hey, we can't be there tonight." Like, oh, you know, it it was at that point I I figured out I've got to do something else. So that led me to uh for some strange reason applying to law school and that's that's where I went back uh came back here to Arkansas and uh got my law degree with the the intent of going back to the US attorney's office, you know, in in Dallas or somewhere and doing some work there. But so I I went through law school as a single parent, you know, single dad, only parent, raising two little girls, uh trying to work on top of law school and it was that's when my hair left. So I did have hair before I went through that. Uh but that that transition and seeing what it was like being a single parent, you know, having to raise kids and pay bills and do all that. And then the girls were finally settled. So I like I'm just going to stay here. So I got to I got a job as a state prosecutor. And uh I got in there. I'm the new guy, you know, after 20 plus years of doing all this other stuff. I'm I'm the new guy again. So I was looking around to see where I could add value.

[00:05:30]And that turned out to be anywhere with social media, electronic evidence, cell phones, anything in the digital realm.

[00:05:38]Most prosecutors were avoiding that and they still a lot of them still do, they were avoiding that heavily, especially back then.

[00:05:47]And a lot of the cases that I was seeing when I would I was sitting across from children, from you know, especially little girls. I was sitting across from elderly. I was sitting across from extremely vulnerable people who had been groomed and taken by somebody on the other side of a of a device, right? And you started seeing the vulnerability.

[00:06:10]And when I got into child exploitation and human trafficking investigations, that's that's when everything changed.

[00:06:16]That that became my new focus. That was everything. It's like terrorism, you know, terrorism is important obviously, but other people are doing plenty of that. and I decided to jump in to the child exploitation and human trafficking space where I felt like I could add more value. So that's kind of how I stumbled into it.

[00:06:35]>> Was there a case in particular that said that hit you hard where you said, "Hey, this is this is this last round. I'm pouring my life into this."

[00:06:44]>> Yeah, actually there was. And I remember his name. I I can send that to you guys later. But there's a there was a case where, you know, I don't want to say I don't want to say bad things about the investigators, but at the time they were doing the best they could. They had no resources, no training, very little in the way of support, and they were overwhelmed by all the child exploitation stuff coming in. You know, there's there's a lot of movement now to try to get more funding and more attention to it. But back then, and we're talking probably 2014, 2013, something like that. There was a case, one of them that I had, the US attorney's office turned down cuz it was kind of a mess. And I I could see, but I was like, this guy, I can't just let him go. So, I took the case knowing that good chance I wouldn't be able to to win.

[00:07:29]His name was James something. I I'll think of it, but he he had moved down to Arkansas from Michigan. He was a registered child sex offender, but he moved here and got married and took his wife's last name.

[00:07:42]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:07:44]>> And didn't register, you know. So, now he's got an ID with a different last name. So, you know, whatever it takes to hide, right?

[00:07:54]>> A registered child sex offender moves to Arkansas and starts hunting, you know, doing what he does. He's online. Well, his new wife just happened to walk behind him one day and see what was on his computer screen and that led to a pretty significant domestic disturbance. I I want to say a frying pan was involved in that. But I think she got arrested uh and obviously divorced the guy, turned him in, you know, she just went, you know, full tilt on him. And that of course led into our investigations which weren't weren't really done all that well. But you know again it was a product of the times. The investigators had minimal training, minimal resources. They did the best they could with what they had. Right.

[00:08:39]So when we when I I got that back, I was looking at it and I can't remember how many images, but they were of of what is unfortunately referred to in the statutes as child pornography, but as we know, that is anything but pornography. That is child rape. It's child abuse. It is some of the the most horrible things I've ever seen.

[00:09:03]And you start getting into to working these cases and it it became incredibly important. And this guy was hitting us with he was uh firing his attorney. He was changing them. He was filing his own legal challenges, motions, briefs, and all this stuff. And it was it took two years to bring that thing to trial. It was a fight. But his thing was, and there there are various levels of evil out here. He was looking for mothers who had access to children who were interested in sharing them with him.

[00:09:37]>> So this this wasn't he was just looking for these individual kids out here, but which he was, but he was also looking for women who had children that wanted to participate. And this is a thing that you know most people don't like to talk about. But >> so anyway, that case led to uh pretty significant trials. So we had a jury trial, went through all of that, got a conviction, and I want to say he got the jury gave him 580 years in jail. So >> in prison, >> so anyway, that that really led to me wanting to do better on the investigation side. That's where I dove into how do we do investigations? How do we do this better? And how do we not only build the investigation, but we can ensure that it that it goes crosses the finish line of prosecution.

[00:10:26]>> Yeah.

[00:10:26]>> Yeah. That sounds like you got uh a job that's not a not a pleasant it was not a pleasant job, but but somebody had to get a hold of these people and bring them to justice. How much of the uh and I'm just kind of going to cross cross a a road here.

[00:10:41]>> You ever run into any of the SRA >> uh SRA >> satanic ritual abuse with a lot of this?

[00:10:48]>> No. quite honestly never seen that.

[00:10:51]>> Okay. Yeah. Well, that's good. That that would I know that's on the increase with a lot of this stuff and it's uh it's very very uh disheartening. Um >> how much of this how much of the stuff that we hear that kind of goes into that how much of the stuff we hear online right now that all this conspiracy theories how much of that has any weight or any validity to it? Well, you know what I'm talking about. you see all these these comments all line of things.

[00:11:20]How much of that has any validity?

[00:11:22]>> Well, it it kind of depends on on which one you're talking about, right? And >> so that they they do like the satanic ritual abuse. I've I've never seen it. I was talking to a couple of friends of mine who've done this for 20 plus years.

[00:11:35]They've never seen it. Uh so I I don't you I can't speak to that. I don't know.

[00:11:41]I I can't say it doesn't happen, but I can say that we are overwhelmed with cases and and we're not we're not seeing that. We are seeing a lot of what most people don't like to see is that the these are families, familial trafficking, familial abuse, which there's a lot of overlap and crossover right there.

[00:11:59]>> Yeah.

[00:11:59]>> Most of these kids are being abused by someone in their circle of trust.

[00:12:03]They're being >> videoed, abused, raped. they're being sold, trafficked by somebody that is supposed to love them and take care of them. And even when we can go in and and I'm very cautious about using the term rescued, but in this case, if a child is being abused, that is that is a rescue, right? Yeah.

[00:12:22]>> And >> even when you do that, you're taking the only caretaker that child knows in some cases and then, you know, they're looking at the foster care system and they're so it's not it's not just like, oh, this child is so is really happy about being rescued. this child is in a horrible, horrible situation where the only person they that they know and I hate to say trust, but that that relationship is there, they still care about that mom or that dad that even though they're doing this stuff and that's the only security they know and we're coming in and taking that away and they don't know what's going to happen to them. They they have no clue. They have >> It's got to be a horrible horrible place to be.

[00:13:04]>> Yeah. So the movies show, oh, you're you're kicking doors. you're going in taking the bad guys down and recovering these kids and everything's hap happy happ happ happily ever after. It's not that's not reality. Matter of fact, I just ran into a situation with a a group that wanted to to fund operations, human trafficking operations.

[00:13:22]>> So, we did one and they were saying, "Well, this this just looks like a you know, men coming to buy prostitution."

[00:13:30]They were expecting to see kids kept in in cages with their their hands bound.

[00:13:36]It's like that's that's really not that's really not the majority of what you see. It it does happen, but the majority of what you see are people who have been groomed over time and brought in maybe to a Romeo like a the boyfriend relationship where your boyfriend brings this girl in and then pretty soon that turns to let's you little little drug use and then turns into well I I just need you to have sex with my friend here cuz we got to pay the bills and then that turns into more and more and more or it can it can escalate in in different ways with violence and other things but you know they're usually sucked into this this system where most of them don't even know they're being trafficked or they don't recognize they're being trafficked.

[00:14:18]>> I mean, as bad as it is, we're working with prosecutors right now. When I say we is a a victim service provider, >> uh, actually, you should have her on.

[00:14:26]She's got some some stories. She's a survivor and she now goes into jails, uh, detention centers and evaluates the arrestes that are in there to see if they've been trafficked. And we I just helped her. She was just successful in getting her first one released. And I want to say she was looking at 120 years in jail, prison. But what we don't recognize about trafficking is that the there are these these people, they're not all men, you know, primarily that the these these traffickers will identify a vulnerability. In this case, this woman was addicted. She was homeless, you know, wasn't able to to eat and to provide for herself very well. I said, "Oh, come on in. I I got a place for you. Come here. Stay here."

[00:15:06]That turned into, of course, having sex with him, having sex with his friends whenever he ordered it. And then that turned into, I need you to go down to the post office and pick up this box or I need you to go over here and pick up this package and I need you to go deliver these things to these people.

[00:15:21]>> As you can imagine, drugs and and other things. And that was required of her.

[00:15:26]She wanted to have a place to stay and food to eat and, you know, just the basic necessities of life. She's the one and and this is always what we see with traffickers is there's this gap between them and risk. The victims are going to take all the risk. So with with this lady, she was the one going and picking up packages he wanted. She was the one that was going and delivering and bringing back payment. And when she got caught, she got arrested.

[00:15:52]>> Yeah.

[00:15:52]>> You know, there's that buffer zone there. It's the same with and that that is human trafficking. The drugs, everything is trafficking. She is being trafficked. It's for the benefit of that that guy in this case that was sitting back and saying, "Hey, you delivered the drugs. I'll take the money." Same case where we had a group from Alabama that came through. They had printers in their car. They were printing off bogus checks and they would go to the homeless encampments, homeless population, and say, "Hey, here I'll I'll I'll give you 50 bucks or I'll give you some food or I'll give you some drugs, whatever it may be, if you'll go cash this check."

[00:16:21]So the the homeless people would go in and either attempt or would actually cash checks and they would bring this cash back. So this group they would gather that up for two or three weeks and then they take off and that's about the time when the arrests start and >> you know who gets arrested it's the homeless people right?

[00:16:38]>> Yeah.

[00:16:38]>> So that's that's another version of trafficking. So I think here in the US we've identified 25 different typologies or maybe 17. So the UK also has modern slavery and they've identified either 25 or 17. Anyway, there are multiple variations of that.

[00:16:52]>> Yeah. I want to ask you about the UK.

[00:16:53]you've obviously been over there and done some things and you know just reading >> some of the stuff going on with the um >> I don't know what they the grooming gangs is that a is that an actual thing that's going on over there >> grooming >> the grooming gangs I think there's a big >> um yeah >> I think it deals with a lot of the immigration stuff and some of that and some of the >> Anyway, >> yeah, so for grooming that's that that goes on everywhere. That's uh the UK's got the same problems we've got here and you know we've been exchanging information about you know different approaches and different different concepts. One of the things I do like over there is project vigilant uh with Tina Wallace. She's she's done a fantastic job. But, uh, yeah, grooming obviously is going to be a a major major problem. And that can also be tied into the human trafficking space where you get a victim and maybe they're they're getting older, maybe, you know, they're you need them to do something else, but they can be used in the grooming process as well. A lot of times they're referred to as a bottom where you'll have you can imagine a victim where you say, "Well, you you've got a choice. You can either help me recruit other other people to come in and work or you can go have sex all day or you can go well one one of the survivors told me Elena I still remember saying that she had a quota and said the guy said told her this is your quota you can get this by going shoplifting you can go pickpocket you can go do whatever or you can you're going to have sex you know it's your choice what do you want to do to fulfill your obligation every day to meet your quota and when you start looking at some of these trafficking You mentioned the UK, but in some places like Myanmar, Vietnam, where you get these scam centers and and there are groups that are are addressing this, trying to trying to address that problem over there. Scam centers are a lot of human trafficking victims and and even even here in the US, well, and in the UK, a lot of people are put in front of a phone, given a list saying, "All right, you're going to go down this call these numbers. Here's your script. This is what you're trying to do." And it's just a scam call center. But but yeah, the the grooming the grooming is is uh I mean it's a problem everywhere. When you really step back and you start looking at this, it it crosses international boundaries, state lines. It doesn't have respect for any >> uh you know any any entity anywhere.

[00:19:08]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:08]>> So Kevin, >> you talk about the grooming and I know you said you had two daughters. I have one.

[00:19:16]>> I have two boys and a girl. And my biggest fear was someone stepping in and you know and and manipulating her.

[00:19:27]What can fathers, mothers, you know, parents look for and try to head that off and try to be and my biggest things always be, you know, be there be be uh, you know, in their lives and and pay attention. But what can what can we do as parents to make sure that that doesn't or at least minimize the the chance that that happens in our families? So for me and and you can Google uh many many different variations on things to watch for the behavioral changes are the big things the big red flags of isolation and and you know changes in their their their eating or hidden discussions or they do they have an extra phone you that you probably wouldn't see anyway it's probably going to be hidden there are things like that but for me I was always very when I when I really got into this, what I saw in the grooming process was that the the people doing the grooming would listen and they they listened not to not to lecture, not to correct, but they listened to understand. And that that is powerful. They they knew how to develop empathy. And when you when you really get down to it, of course, parents, I think, have more difficulty in that because I still remember one girl saying that her father said, "Well, you know, I told you you're I was proud of you. I told you that you're special. I told you you're beautiful. I told you all these things, and I I told you this over the years." And she said, "Yeah, but you're my dad. You're supposed to tell me that." And that that makes it really hard for parents because, you know, kids are saying, "Oh, that's my parent.

[00:21:07]They're supposed to say that." Yeah.

[00:21:08]>> And these groomers, they're coming in and they're looking for that gap.

[00:21:12]They're looking for that discomfort. And as you know, there's a natural gap that forms between parent and child in a in a healthy relationship. There's that gap that forms that there's a separation because, you know, as as we as we age, we're wanting to become young adults.

[00:21:27]We're wanting to separate from our parents. We want to make our decisions.

[00:21:30]We want to have we want to be that adult. There's a normal there's there's a normal gap that that that that appears. Now with these predators, they're looking for any way that they can force their way in. And a lot of times it is, well, my parents aren't listening to me. I still remember one I've got one presentation is my parents and my college counselor aren't listening to me. And and she's a special needs girl. They're not listening to what I want. They're not listening to what I have to say. They're making decisions for me. you know, she finishes up high school and this this predator is talking to her and he's listening. When she will respond to something, he will take it in and he will have a thoughtful response back and ask her questions, ask her what she thinks and what she feels and and it's an in-depth timeconsuming conversation. This is this is how grooming works. And as parents, we are, especially in the modern world, there are so many threats that we're really trying to zero in on and protect our kids from. We we often don't build that relationship with them. Yeah.

[00:22:28]>> And when we do have that relationship building time like dinner time or something that's you know you'll often see people on their phones even there.

[00:22:36]So you we we had a thing where you you put the put the phones away when we're sitting down and you have to just talk.

[00:22:43]So there there's no easy answer to this.

[00:22:46]And and you can also have like my my daughters and my I've got an older son.

[00:22:50]All three of them are very different. Uh just just for example, when my girls were growing up, I wanted them to to realize that just because I pull out a card, a debit card or something and I'm paying for for coffee or hot chocolate or whatever it may be, that you know that that card doesn't represent too much. So I got them their own little uh I'm with a military bank, USA, right?

[00:23:11]They so they had their own little account, their credit cards or debit cards actually, and their allowance went on there. So my oldest daughter went up, I remember we were at Starbucks or something and she said, "How much is this this coffee?" And they said, " $5."

[00:23:23]She said, "Oh, I'm not paying that for that." And uh my younger daughter went up and said, "Hey, I want this uh this this drink over here." And they said, "That's $6. How much I got on here?" You know, here. So two different mentalities, right? And that's just kind of a basic way of saying this is not a cookie cutter approach. You can't just take the same approach with every child.

[00:23:42]And you've also got the the thing where like father and and daughter relationship is different than in the same family mother and daughter relationship.

[00:23:50]>> Right. So you've got to understand your kids. You've got to understand the relationship that that you have with each child. And each approach is really going to be nuanced. It's going to be a little different.

[00:24:00]>> Yeah.

[00:24:00]>> But I I think when it all boils down to this, it's the building of trust and communication and empathy and and really listening. But for for me, the struggle even now talking to one of my my kids, the struggle is I I want to come in and fix everything. And that's that's generally not not the the best way to do it. You know, you try to come in, develop empathy. You've got to understand and that person has to feel like they're being heard and understood and and appreciated and all that. And I I think that's going to be a struggle especially for fathers.

[00:24:34]>> Yeah. Yeah, >> you know, Ben Ben Owen when we interviewed him, he said that he has never seen a victim that had a healthy relationship with her father.

[00:24:44]>> Right.

[00:24:45]>> That very telling and uh it was it was eye opening to me. Now that you know, one of the things we're trying to do here is just wake men up, get them off the sidelines, and get them back in the game so that they can uh participate where they're supposed to be, where God has called us to be, where God has put us and gave us given us the talents and the desires to fill those. And when we sit on the sidelines and just get selfish, you know, everything goes to to hell. And we're seeing that in our society right now. We're just it's just become glaring that the missing piece of the puzzle is the men in our society.

[00:25:24]That's what I see.

[00:25:25]>> Yeah. And I I think some of the ones that are showing up I I just watched a documentary on Netflix on the manosphere. I don't know if you've seen that or not, but that's incredibly troubling as well. I was already familiar with a lot of it.

[00:25:38]>> Bananosphere.

[00:25:39]>> Yeah. So, I've been putting out a series of articles. I just started a couple days ago on on masculinity and, you know, all of that. And I got I got I think I I I wrote I wrote these a while back, but I think I got nine of them.

[00:25:51]So, you know, I'm going to put them out for a few days. But the the manosphere, it's all about making money. You know, pretty much you know, women should be under your control. Do what you say.

[00:26:03]Aggression is masculine. I mean, there's there's all of this. you know, these guys wearing expensive watches, driving Lamborghinis, that that is what is hitting our young men because they're you're right. They're the fathers, you know, and I get it. Before I I had to quit federal service, I was gone a lot.

[00:26:22]I I wasn't home. I wasn't there as I should have been or No, I wasn't there as I would have liked to have been, but I was the one out making money and and paying the bills and allowing my my wife at the time to stay home and raise a girl. So there was that tradeoff and I realized that it did take a toll on on my relationship with my kids because I was gone. You know, it's like military or something. You're you're not there.

[00:26:47]Even though you're a good father and you're engaged and caring, when your job requires that you're traveling, most of the time it's it's difficult.

[00:26:56]>> Yeah. I had the same thing when I was in corporate America. I traveled was gone a lot. I mean, the pressures of of that career >> and I made some I made some choices that I wish I could take back just being gone and when I shouldn't have been, >> but you know, again, you're serving a greater purpose in your eyes and sometimes we make sacrifices that maybe we shouldn't have made.

[00:27:16]>> So, I see that.

[00:27:18]>> Yeah. And there there's no way to account for that other than looking back and yeah, we we can't be stuck in that.

[00:27:24]>> Yeah. Let me ask you this question because um I've been reading a lot of your articles um about cyber um surveillance, internet of things, how you use the um computer, the digital footprints in order to catch really bad people, which is, you know, which is good, >> but there's always that trade-off between freedom and security. Um, and I I like the one where you had, cuz I've had this, the ALPR, Yeah. automated license plate reader.

[00:27:58]>> I've gotten a couple of nice little uh notes from a local little town here called Whitesburg, Georgia. And they've asked me twice to pay $75 because when I was going through the school zone at about 11:00, I mean, the lights weren't flashing and you're coming from the highway into town. And I I I want to go to the speed limit in the school zone. I I don't have a problem with that. But I think maybe going 40 and a 25 or something like that. And I get a picture of my car and I can see my head, you know, from behind. And they asked me to pay $75 twice. And you talk about how um it's been used to solve 700,000 crimes each year in the United States. And also with the internet of things where so much is connected connected to the internet, not only can they know that you're at home, but they can know your movement in the house. And you, you know, automatically made me think about Minority Report, right?

[00:28:51]>> You know, Tom Cruz is always going to run away from everybody, you know, and anyway.

[00:28:55]>> Um, and they they predict the crime. The AI predicts the crime before it happens.

[00:29:00]They you don't do the crime, but you do the time. And, uh, they go get you before you commit the crime. And you can see AI, you can see the surveillance state. uh Shy Lab Labou or whatever his name is with Eagle Eye I think was the name of that movie. Uh of course Space Odyssey No Dave you know AI taking over and all the data centers now you know when I see all these data centers I never see anybody saying hey we want a d a data center uh because I know hey all that's going to do is aggregate all that information somebody's going to have access to it and we have to trust the government that they're only going to let the the right people know the right things. I don't trust the government anymore. I think the United States was set up with the Constitution says do not trust your government, >> you know, u >> and so with the internet of things, everything connected, it works out really well for law enforcement. I think you talked about it with the Charlie Kirk with the Discord and the guys, you know, on these sites where you can kind of trace things.

[00:29:59]>> Um the tension between liberty and and even um I had to go back and I wanted to get the precise reading of the fourth amendment. So, I'll read that. I'm sure you're very well familiar. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the person or things to be seized. And I know you have an article about how warrants are going to have to be there's going to have to be an evolution of warrants basically if I understood that right that >> y >> uh so with all that um kind of piled on top of you and you we want to catch bad criminals especially these disgusting sexual predators that need to be locked away and these children need to be protected.

[00:30:57]But this type of law enforcement can also be used by people who don't have the best intentions and they can be in government. And I see the UK, I see Australia, I see New Zealand, I see Canada after co I mean the Commonwealth has gone crazy. They are very I feel like they're uh oppressive. I feel like they've uh uh turned into a little bit of little tyrants in some ways and personal liberties have been uh reduced in certain areas, certain countries. So with all that, I'm just going to serve it up to you.

[00:31:33]>> So liberty versus security sort of.

[00:31:37]>> Yeah.

[00:31:37]>> Yeah. That's that's a balance that we we have to address.

[00:31:42]And I think you're one of the papers you're referring to. I I read a an an article. It was a academic article that talked about different different types of privacy.

[00:31:55]And when you start thinking about it, especially with with my my experience level in the legal process side, so one of my specialties is what can I ask for?

[00:32:06]How do I ask for it? And what do I do with it when I get it back? And that can be extremely powerful information when you get get this data back. And and you you mentioned a word earlier, if most of your listeners know, digital footprint, you know, the the digital exhaust. And you know, if you think about the old days driving your car around where you can see the exhaust coming out, you know, that that exhaust going everywhere, right? We're doing that now. We we're going around putting off this digital exhaust that if you learn how to put the pieces of that puzzle together, I can know a lot about you and I can figure out who you are even though this data is anonymized. So, if you think about modern uh the internet of things, if you think about a modern home, you come home, your your house, your Wi-Fi picks up your vehicle and automatically starts opening that garage door if you've got that set up that way.

[00:33:05]>> Uh it it automatically turns on your lights in your house. It automatically drops the thermostat down and starts cooling it off or heating it up, whatever whatever the needs may be. that that that allows me as an investigator to go back and interrogate that system and I can say, "Oh, the garage door came open." So, he was within 100 mters of his Wi-Fi with his house. That's when his phone first came into this. So, I'm going to pull his phone or I'm going to pull his car and I'm going to get all the location data as he's moving. I'm going to know when he hit the brakes. I want to know when the door opened.

[00:33:37]There's there's this massive information that goes everywhere with you. And in your home, it's like, oh, here's he's got a smart TV or a smart a smart TV.

[00:33:45]You got a smart uh refrigerator. I'm sure you've seen those where I'm at the store and hey, do I have ketchup? I can't remember. So, I'm going to dial in. I'm going to use my camera inside my my refrigerator and look around and I need this washer and dryer. Same thing. And you can tell when somebody is interacting.

[00:34:04]You can tell when somebody's moving. And it gets very, very personal. And then you can also tell there was another person. Let's say you're single and uh you're you're high-profile. You're a celebrity. You're you're single and and you have this other celebrity over. You guys are starting to date and you don't want to expose that to the world, but you have every right to do that and that this other person's over, but now their device is now traveling with yours or it's hitting on the same IoT, the same environment there. So now I can tell, well, there's a relationship here. So anyway, this this can get very very invasive very quickly. So if I pull if I pull your data and I ask the right questions, which is one of the things I teach of finding connections, finding pivots, it there's a chance you're going to show up, you know, the other person's going to show up. I'm going to start seeing that. So you you got this uh association privacy. You know, do do I want do I want to be exposed just because somebody else did something? And that's that's a very real possibility. You know, it seems like I have been unlawfully searched without a warrant. That's the same thing as if they said, "We've got to get a warrant to come into your house and look at your house to see what's" But they've already looked at my probably my finances. They probably accessed my, you know, where I spent my credit card, my debit card, where my car went, where it showed up on the license plate, where my phone dinged off a tower. Yep.

[00:35:25]>> Um um all kind. I mean, I can drive by.

[00:35:29]I think sometimes you can drive by like Walmart or something all a sudden or Walgreens all of a sudden you get a text from Walgreens.

[00:35:35]>> Yeah, if you want to look into that, look up, you know, the marketing all the marketing data and you can actually see where somebody's moving through a store heat mass. Uh, >> you can actually you can actually get around the Fourth Amendment easily. I mean, Fourth Amendment basically doesn't mean as much as it used to.

[00:35:51]>> Well, the Fourth Amendment is is focused on who? Government, right? It restricts government.

[00:35:58]access to that.

[00:36:00]>> Most of this data now is geared toward so >> government can use a third party to get it. They don't they don't have to do it themselves. They can get it from somebody else.

[00:36:10]>> Yeah. But this this is all about money, right? In the end, everything's all about money. And that's what drives commerce. That's what drives that's what drives our it's capitalism. It's what we're we're here for is money. So, when you look at the the marketing data and you you mentioned Walgreens, that is driven off of marketing data, location data, because it's easier to spend money or it makes more sense to spend money when I know this person is in the vicinity of this store or is in this mall and I can just just really pinpoint target them versus the old days of, you know, you get something in your in the mail of, oh, you know, Dillards has a sale on jeans this weekend, you know, but but when when you know as much as they know about you, It's like I know, oh, on his device he's been looking for jeans, you know, he's been doing Google searches for this. I'm going to start targeting him with ads.

[00:36:58]>> So, does the data centers that they're wanting to put everywhere that's going to help with the internet of things obviously, right? That's going to help with the aggre aggregating all this information together for somebody for what I mean, what's the purpose if if we're going to what's the purpose of all the data centers? Is it so that everybody can be surveiled and um everything can just be connected?

[00:37:23]>> Yeah, I don't think surveillance is it.

[00:37:24]I I think it all comes back to money.

[00:37:26]So, you're looking at the the big ones that are driving all this. Amazon, Facebook, Google.

[00:37:32]>> Let's just stick with them.

[00:37:34]>> Uh Amazon, Meta, and and uh and Google, they don't care if you get arrested.

[00:37:40]They don't care what crimes are being committed.

[00:37:43]>> They they just don't. They that's not why they exist. That's their their stockholders don't care about crimes quite honestly unless that crime cuts into their bottom line. Everything they do is geared towards making money.

[00:37:57]And if they like Google, how much how many Google products do you have on your phone? Do you have Google Maps?

[00:38:03]>> Yeah.

[00:38:04]>> Uh you probably got Google Drive. You probably got Gmail. whether you got an iPhone or not, you've got you probably got other Google like ways is is another one that that they're probably assimilating into, >> right?

[00:38:16]>> Uh but you so all these products, how much do you pay for those?

[00:38:18]>> Nothing.

[00:38:19]>> Nothing, right? So you think Google is just out of pocket?

[00:38:22]>> They're not benevolent.

[00:38:23]>> No, they get money because of data. Data is big money. So data centers you're asking about the more they can get you to use the more data that they can accumulate the more they can sell it to the marketers the more they can sell it to business people to corporations and and law enforcement.

[00:38:40]>> But I hold to the depravity I hold to the depravity of man and I know that okay you got all these tech oligarchs that their net worth is more than nations. I mean I mean they are their net worth is more than a lot of nations >> right? uh they they have to have I believe they have a fallen nature and I believe there is a desire to control um to exert yourself and I don't believe I don't believe in the goodness of man.

[00:39:10]I just don't. And I believe that whole thing about the the United States Constitution, uh, like I said once again, you know, you had checks and balances, you had the, uh, the Bill of Rights.

[00:39:23]Um, but when it comes to the oligarchs and it comes to the information, the data being collected, there are there's no Bill of Rights. Uh, it it is outside governmental control. And I think the government's like that because they can dip into it without technically violating rights.

[00:39:43]And it is like even now with the war in Iran uh the I think they call them laws the uh lethal autonomous weapons now that you know weapon AI is making decisions >> is taking and I think you alluded some of that in one of your >> um I think it was an article about AI is not a is not a witness >> right >> and also about the homeland security when they were allowing the AI to write the the reports.

[00:40:14]>> Yeah. So there there's got to be back to the key word balance. You know, AI is here to stay. It's not going anywhere.

[00:40:21]It's just going to get >> it's just going to get worse or, you know, depending on your outlook on things. But when you are involved, so I've been involved in in shootings and other things.

[00:40:33]that event there were things that happened that and scared the hell out of me that I I became aware of that I I noticed offensive movements, you know, things that happened in a split second that I had to make decisions to do things. I can do a general write up or I can speak in into a system and have AI generate this report. AI can can look at that and it can organize words and organize thoughts, but it can't feel it doesn't feel the fear. It doesn't feel that I'm I'm about to die. I've got to do something, >> right?

[00:41:07]>> It doesn't feel the situation. It It can't really articulate all of that. And I I don't think it ever will because it's going to lack that emotional component. There there are certain things where you have to have Now, I'm I'm okay if an officer wants AI to to write something or to help them to revise it and make it better written, let's say, >> right? But they still have to be engaged in that process of looking and reading and saying, "No, that's not right. I got to change this part." The end product has to be as accurate as possible and to depict what that person experienced in that moment, especially if it involves loss of life or something of that nature. So yeah, the the AI and these algorithms, they they are a tool and they have a purpose, but it's the misuse of this just just like vehicles or or or guns or anything else. It's a tool. It's it's technology >> and the responsible use of that and an understanding and an education >> of that it it can have beneficial uses.

[00:42:08]Hunting, can you imagine us not having rifles or anything and we're still out with with sticks and and bows and arrows, which you know, fine. I'm sure we do do okay, but that advancement in technology took us somewhere. But it also enables people with bad intent to use those weapons in bad ways.

[00:42:22]Technology is the same. It's it's a tool. It can be a weapon and it's going to go it's going to get in the hands of people who have bad intent. There's just no way around it.

[00:42:32]>> But, you know, we have to go back to as well our own um part in this. If we if if the government said, "Okay, we're going to do away with Google Maps. We're away with with with with AI because it's infringing upon your rights." People would be in an uproar that we're taking things away from them. So, Oh, yeah. You know, we want to complain. We want to say, you know, this infringes my rights, but yet we don't want to be inconvenienced. You know, we don't we we love all this stuff. We love all the technology and we live it and we use it every day.

[00:43:02]>> And I don't think there is a good answer for it. I I think, you know, there there's going to it's going to just get worse or better, whichever way you want to look at it. Like you said, >> Johnny Depp could go into the computer and you have to turn off all the electricity.

[00:43:16]>> Yep. There's no telling.

[00:43:17]>> Yeah. But >> I don't really know the main name of that movie.

[00:43:19]>> I saw that one. Yeah, >> they had to turn off the electricity to keep Johnny Depp from taking over the world.

[00:43:24]>> Yeah, I mean there who knows.

[00:43:27]>> Look, Kevin, let me let me ask you a question. So, all the technology, all the different systems and the way things interconnect.

[00:43:35]Um, you hear about the dark web, you hear about all this stuff, these sites that that go, you know, that are out there, people go on and and and shop and and do commerce in and the trafficking and the child pornography and stuff.

[00:43:51]What can you talk a little bit about that and and explain maybe what all that is and what the truth is about it and you know the because there's always uh embellishment of of what's actually there, what all is out there. You know, you see all these different reports.

[00:44:11]what actually is is is out there and and again how can we participate in stopping it or how can we participate in in doing something about it or >> well stopping it or doing something about it that's that's a good question.

[00:44:26]So the the dark web the dark web is used primarily for well it's so again we'll step back. It was it was built by the Navy for let's just say co cover co covert communication and in operation for the internet right the the the tour browser which is the onion router anybody can download that on a machine that's what will allow you to access this this dark web this this other other side of the internet that is not Google searchable >> so it's so it's actually a a separate uh web, >> right?

[00:45:05]>> Okay.

[00:45:05]>> Facebook has an onion site. So, these are referred to as onion sites. If you got a dark website, you you'll also hear them referred to as onion site. So, tour the tour browser, it's to r the onion router, right? So, the the tour the dark web will route your access through different nodes which will hide essentially hides your IP. It hides you. Now, there are other things that will tell you like don't uh don't always, you know, don't maximize your your screen because then they can it'll allow somebody to tell what size device you're on, you know, or what what device you're on. There there are a lot of nuanced things that you still have to do once you're in there. But so, onion sites, uh, Facebook has one, the CIA has one, I think the FBI probably has one.

[00:45:51]You know, there are Amazon's probably got one. So there are dark web conventional sites on there, but you have to know how to get there. You have to be able to type in the address of the place to go. Now if you look at at dark web marketplaces like oh Alphab Bay was one. So you go to you go to this Alphab Bay Onion site and they would have a listing of vendors there where you could go down. It's like I'm I'm interested in in pornography. I'm interested in beastiality. I'm interested in stolen credit cards. I'm interested in ghost guns, all this this stuff that was over there in this marketplace. There are usually these collections of things and then you figure out where to go. Or you're a member and you've earned your way into a site on Telegram or, you know, some other place where these these sites are exchanged. That's that's often done. So, it's it's a lot more difficult. You have to have a little more knowledge and and a little better skill set to get on the dark web. I mean, it doesn't doesn't take a hacker to get on there and do that. It's it's something you have to put in the time to learn where to go and figure out what you're asking for.

[00:46:58]>> Yeah. But it's the same way u if if you have a an addict, you put an addict in a new city, he can find drugs probably within an hour. He knows where to go and how to and how to traffic how to, you know, navigate in those in those areas.

[00:47:14]Same thing.

[00:47:14]>> Yeah. Elizabeth Wartzell, she was an attorney. She wrote a series of books, but um I I was doing a academic program on on addiction and some other things, but we we were for for one of the assignments we had to read a book and that was one of the ones selected and I I read it. Uh she's I think Yale law, graduated, family's got money, but she talked about uh being able to use cocaine and these other drugs and just like it's nothing. And then she talked about one day she had a prescription for I think methylenidate or something and then she decided she's going to crush it up and snort it. And she said that one hit of her pres had a prescription for this but it wasn't supposed to be snorted. That completely derailed her and took her down a path where you know she's got money and she was shoplifting cheap stuff just for she said I don't know. But then she said, "The thing I've been amazed by addicts is they struggle with everyday life, but they can tell you down to the hour when they're going to run out. They can make elaborate plans to find the next hit and all of this just the way that the the mind of an addict works where every bit of brain power is on. I've I've got to continue my habit."

[00:48:27]>> Y >> and uh it just fascinating to read something from from her perspective with her education and ability to communicate of what it was like. And it was it was just a horrible ordeal. Inmates are the same way. Inmates can create things out of nothing in in prison. I mean, it's always amazing at how in how ingenious their creations can be to get radios, to get, you know, weapons, to get all sorts of things, to create foods. I mean, um got a friend that was that was in in in um prison out in Texas that he could make gourmet meals with ketchup packets and, you know, and relish packets and and and ramen. And it's just it's just amazing what you can do when you try.

[00:49:09]And so you look at these inmates going like, if you can do this in here, why can't you get out and find, you know, viable way to live your life? They just >> it's all perspective, I guess, but it's amazing. Anything, Marty?

[00:49:23]>> Okay. Segue into um your work in after the after the fall of Afghanistan. Like to ask get some questions about that. I mean that that was an interesting time, a very scary and hurtful and disappointing time for our government.

[00:49:38]And I know that you went to uh well I'm not going to tell his story. I don't know all the story. I just heard some of our friends talk about it and um what you did over in Dubai and things to help and and how you got involved in all that. I'd love to hear that little story if you if you got time.

[00:49:55]>> Yeah, that was what was that three and a half years ago now or a little more. So I was actually in Cabbell. So, I was I was in in Afghanistan. So, I I founded the National Child Protection Task Force, the NCPTF. And that that came out of that case back in 20 probably 2016.

[00:50:10]I'd have to go back and look, but about that time, I was working with the governor's office and we created the Child Protection Task Force, which was basically just me for several years. Uh I kept having investigators get on and they were just like, "Yeah, this is too much, you know, and kind of lose interest and move on." Uh but after a few years, I finally got two or three people on and and my wife was one of them that helped out to to get that thing built into this this task force.

[00:50:34]Well, that's when all all the things in Afghanistan started going downhill. I had and we I've always worked with the the special operations community, intelligence communities through the military and through the federal system and all of that. Uh, and I had somebody I don't want to throw names in here because I don't know if they would uh approve, but got got connected with a guy who Oh, you mentioned Scott Man who who it was similar to Scott Man, right?

[00:50:56]In in his connections in his his past.

[00:50:59]They asked me if I would help them. They they their goal was to get out about 3,500 orphans from Afghanistan. And I said, "Sure." You know, I'll I'll help out. And so I remember telling my wife, I said, "Hey, do you mind if I go to Afghanistan? you know, I got about 12 hours. Uh, of course, of course, she said, "Oh, you're really asking me, you know, just just go do your thing."

[00:51:20]Anyway, the original goal was to get out the 3500 orphan. So, at that time, I'm put in communication. I'm communicating with everybody, prepping, getting ready to get on the airplane. And I still remember one lady reached out to me on Signal and said, "Hey, you know, we got some nasty stuff going on here. One of my girls has been targeted. Uh she's been identified as being connected with the American University and some other things with the Americans and she is on the run. You know, here's her cell phone. Here's her information.

[00:51:52]Uh so we we got started on that and this is a few hours before I'm actually on the ground. So I'm communicating with my guys in Kbble. I said, "Hey, can can you do something?" You know, here's her cell phone number. Here's her picture. So we were able to track her because she still had her cell phone on her. She was on the run for 3 days. uh the Taliban had caught up with her right about the same time our PJ group caught up with them and you know just to shorten the story we ended up with her and the Taliban did not.

[00:52:19]>> They were able to recover her and pull her in. I mean that that was one of the the stories that really uh stuck with me. You know now she's she's here in the US. She's going to I don't know if she's finished her university education or not, but she was also trying to work with educating girls in Afghanistan because they're not allowed to get an education. So, she's been working on on different things on delivering education and delivering things for the girls in Afghanistan, doing some great work. We were we're tasked with the 3,500 orphans, but if you kind of take a step back and think about it, it's not that easy just to go in and snatch a whole bunch of kids in one country and take them to another country.

[00:52:57]>> Yeah.

[00:52:58]>> Kidnapping, you know, there there are legal issues, legal ramifications. So, that became very difficult. But we we were working through it and about that time the Taliban activity started ramping up started increasing which was was causing problems you know with with getting getting people through. So it it it shifted from a focus on orphans to we're just going to get everybody out that we can. You know we were getting American citizens out. We were getting as many people as we could. And one of my jobs and I had another guy over there with me. Our job was to look for, you know, child brides, trafficking, exploitation, problems like that. Of course, we were also looking for terrorists or or any any other aspects of that. So, there was a screening process and all this stuff had to be done rapidly. We had we had flights coming in. We and at that time we were working with the UAE and they were providing the military for security, you know. So they they were out there with us uh to provide security when we were loading the aircraft, you know, and then of course the security to get back on the aircraft and they would take off. So we were just constantly bringing aircraft in and loading them up and sending them out. And it it was it was difficult to get countries to take them.

[00:54:08]The UAE there in Abu Dhabi had a humanitarian center which was was magnificent. You know, they had a medical facility, they had food, they had everything set up there for them, but it wasn't supposed to be a permanent residence. So uh I think I think the big challenge is with Afghanistan.

[00:54:26]You know everybody wants to hear about all the fun exciting stuff with the Taliban which was you know quite a challenge but the real challenge was what do we do with these people now? We can't get governments to take them. We can't get countries to take them. I think the cheapest we had they were saying well we want 50 bucks a day per person you know to to house them until we can figure out what to do with them. So again comes back to money. You know, we were we were pulling people out, but then where do we put them? That was a big challenge. And it still is. I mean, we can we can get people out right now. I got I still have people contact me about, you know, I want to get out of Afghanistan. Can you help me? I I I don't I don't have any places to take you.

[00:55:07]>> Yeah, man. So, you made a comment. You said, "I I got my contacts in Kabul." How do you How do you all of a sudden have just contacts in Kabul? I mean, are they >> Oh, this is not not something everybody says. Everybody, you know, hey, you know, I I call my contacts in Kabool to to handle this. I mean, >> well, yeah, that's a good question. But we over the years, I got to say, when I, you know, the the Child Protection Task Force was turned into the National Child Protection Task Force. That started probably around 2016, uh, when I started putting that together. And I I was helping out nationally, which got me introduced to international law enforcement, international operations, working with a lot of former Delta Force SEAL teams, and of course, my my service in the the federal system. We were we had some instructors from other countries on firearms. I mean, we were >> okay.

[00:56:01]>> The the the our shooting skills, I've got to say, were substantial in the early early years of the air marshals.

[00:56:06]So, we we had some amazing amazing instructors that that were in there. So those developed into relationships.

[00:56:14]Anyway, this this this expands out internationally now. So I'm I'm I've kind of got some connections and networks internationally, got some networks within the special operations community.

[00:56:24]Got a few contacts in the intelligence community. And that that just sort of, you know, becomes your network. It's just like Ben Owen, you know, how do you how do you how do you pick up the phone and call somebody? I can call somebody in Pakistan or Afghanistan or Montenegro or Colombia, you know, all over the place now. But we we've been building this network for years and years and years. And if I don't know somebody somewhere, you can probably bet that somebody in my network's going to be able to connect me to it.

[00:56:49]>> It's like a it's like a uh a war fighter uh LinkedIn >> pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. You just got to know who to contact and what to ask, >> you know. It's same thing in in corporate America. I mean, I've built a network of people in different industries where I could call and get things done.

[00:57:03]>> I I see I can see that. Yeah. But it's it's just always interesting whenever you know you guys will talk about something you'll gloss it over. You'll say, "Well, I call my contact here, right?" Or, "We set this up in this other country and there's a war going around you, but you set up a whole system within that country." And us out here going like, "Well, expound on that just a little bit because it you just glossed over something that is seems impossible to us." So, it's it's amazing. It's amazing.

[00:57:29]>> Yeah. And and for that, we we had to set up an intelligence network. So at at that point I I had actually set up the National Child Protection Task Force as a as a nonprofit and I I got some kickback from the people in that organization of going over to Afghanistan. This is not what we do.

[00:57:45]This is not I was like I'm going you know there's people that needs that need help and I I think I had another group or somebody said well are the are these American children? I said I don't really care. They're children. You know they need help >> and we're going. So anyway we we got engaged with that. But I was asked also to set up an intelligence network. So on a on a secure app, messaging app, we we set up uh military intelligence. I mean, this thing just expanded. We put the right people on. They pulled in the right people and those people pulled in people. So we were able while I was in Kbble to say, you know, I'm looking at all these pictures. People are sending stuff in on social media. We're collecting it all. And you know, we're able to say, "Hey, this is uh send them to this gate. give them this code word and tell them to approach the British soldiers at this gate or the American soldiers at this gate or the Australas or whatever. So, we're in communication with all the different gates. Uh, and we're able to send them documents like, "Hey, this is a US citizen. They're going to come here. They're with a child." And, you know, we're able to set up that that communication. And that's that that was a big help, I think.

[00:58:47]>> Let me ask you this. with the u open border that we had during the Biden administration particularly, you know, that what was said 300,000 unaccompanied minors uh that were led across with non-custodial uh people.

[00:59:05]Were you did you have any part in helping to try to find some of those kids or what's your what's your take on all that? Yeah, we we have we have helped out some. Even when I was running the the human trafficking response unit in Oklahoma, you know, we we have provided assistance on some of those, but uh I I I don't know. I don't have enough experience with the entire thing to to really tell you much about it. But, you know, we we were contacted on certain things and and conducted investigations and looked into that that that were within our you know, area of operation.

[00:59:40]So Kevin, kind of we kind of end the plane.

[00:59:44]We're we're at an hour, but there's so much more I'd love to ask you. Uh, but personally, how is this line of work affected you personally? Um, you know, the the weight of what you do and, you know, not letting it break you, not letting it turn you s on the whole human race. I mean, >> it's just, you know, how do you how do you deal with that? I mean, what what goes into putting that in this box and keeping it there?

[01:00:13]>> That's, you know, so I think there's a lot to do with personality that I I I came up in a time when I've seen, you know, been involved in shootings, been involved, and I've hadve I've been cut. I've had people, you know, fighting with me for my gun and doing all of that. And I remember training another officer. We were involved. We're doing something and getting shot at. You know, there were shots fired and this guy's freaking out and ended up the captain calls him in and said, "Hey, you know, this I don't think this job is for you. You need to go find something else to do." This is back in the early days, right? That doesn't really happen anymore. Now they're sent to counseling. They're sent to these other things and we try to bring them back in, which I don't know if that's a good thing or not, but but guys like me, we we never I mean counseling, we we never heard that word.

[01:01:03]that wasn't something that that we did.

[01:01:05]And I'm not saying that's a good thing.

[01:01:07]I I don't I don't think it is. I think some people need that ability. But, you know, for me, I came up being able to compartmentalize. I I still remember my my training officer when I was going through that very young around Christmas time. A guy had killed himself with a shotgun. You know, put it up under his under his chin. And his job was to expose me to everything, get me in fights, you know, assess me, see how I handled myself. And and back then it was, you know, that they'd let you kick for for a few minutes before they'd step in and help just to see how you handle yourself.

[01:01:41]>> And to also to also so you would understand that badge and that gun don't make you invincible and it doesn't always make you right.

[01:01:47]>> Yeah.

[01:01:48]>> You know, I think that was an important lesson that you can only get by getting punched or you know, you know, or or whatever. Uh but anyway, the suicide I'm in and this other guy, this other officer shows up with biscuits and gravy. What is this? So they hand me this food and we're looking at this body and blood and deformed and you know they're investigating and my my trained officer is looking at me like I'm just eating like as I I was just one of those guys where I I was not affected by that.

[01:02:17]But some people are.

[01:02:18]>> Yeah.

[01:02:19]>> And if you are, this may not be the right profession for you. But again, we we don't do that anymore now. We're looking at counseling. We're very careful.

[01:02:27]>> Uh I went through military basic training. I would say based on my experiences that I saw right at the edge of where there was physical contact between drill sergeants and trainees. Uh you know, we didn't have I've heard that that they now have these cards that you can hold up that you're stressed out or something. But, you know, I I think there's I think there's something we lost in that, you know, that that old that old mentality, that old weeding system. Maybe some people don't need to be cops. Maybe some people need to be in this job field, right?

[01:02:56]>> Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I I was I'm just thinking back you you mentioned that that you saw some of the pornog that you saw some of the the the videos and I just don't know that I could process watching a child be raped.

[01:03:08]I >> those Yeah, >> that would just ar me. One one of the things that stuck in my head, a Delta Force retiree, friend of mine that I've been in other countries with and we were helping law enforcement and there were some of those videos that we were looking through trying to get trying to identify the location to geollocate. And he told me later, he said, "You know, I've I've killed people. I've seen people decapitated. I've seen all these horrible things for 20 years in the military. I've always been able to sleep at night." He said, "Now I I've seen this. I I can't sleep. I you know that disturbed him even the things that he saw but the that it's that innocence and the uh abuse of that innocence that you just can't overcome. You may not have an answer for this. What what could drive another human to to do those type of just despicable acts? I mean, what what could put what could drive a man to betray some of the most innocent, you know, beings on this earth? I mean, a child. I mean, what do you what do you find? I mean, do do you find common denominators? Do you find things that maybe they had caught them earlier, they could have put them on a different path, a different road? Is there something families can watch out for their children? You know, hey, you know, this is or is it all just severe trauma that pushes them that way? No, I I I don't have an answer for that. I I wish I did.

[01:04:43]>> Yeah.

[01:04:44]>> But I've seen people that have, you know, you never know what's behind the curtain, right? But they seem to have grown up in a a good family with a good upbringing and everything. I've seen them commit horrible crimes. I've seen I've seen people who have grown up in severe trauma and in poverty who have grown up to be amazing people.

[01:05:04]>> Yeah. So, no, I wish I had some insight into that, but I I really can't say that I do. It's just you never know, you know, for me the you asked about how do you deal with that? Well, there's there's compartmentalization. I know it has made me probably emotionally less wellconed to other people just because I've got got those barriers and probably that protection up.

[01:05:27]>> But it it's secondary trauma and it's it's uh something you just have to deal with if you want to do this work. But there's also the fact that I I had another Homeland Security agent. She said, "You know, I've got I've seen grandparents abusing their children on on on these chats, on these things. I've seen grandparents. I've seen aunts and uncles. I've seen neighbors. I've seen babysitters. I've seen parents I've seen mothers abusing children." And she said, "I don't know how I can go to work and leave my kids with a babysitter. I don't know how I can leave them with my family members. I don't know if I can send them to my parents."

[01:05:58]That's that's something that comes in because you don't know looking at another human. You don't know looking at a pastor. You don't know looking at a police officer or a judge.

[01:06:08]>> You don't know looking at your coach.

[01:06:10]You don't know what's what's behind that curtain. You don't know what lurks behind there. And is it is it okay for me to let my let them have access to my child?

[01:06:19]>> Yeah.

[01:06:19]>> And that's that's what you just don't know. And that that will haunt you. And and really it's it's a burden. I I guess you just have to chalk it up to this is just an evil world. I mean, there is there are there are two sides. There is >> good and evil, man. There's a heaven and a hell, a God and a devil.

[01:06:35]>> Yep. And I think you just have to chalk it up to >> um there is evil. And there is pure evil in this world. And and thank you for fighting that. Thank you for doing what I couldn't do. I couldn't I couldn't do what you do. I couldn't see what you see. Like I said, sleep at night. I mean, I had problems sleeping at night with the pressures of money, right? Know I know I couldn't I know it would be tough. Now, my wife has already said she would volunteer to go with you anytime you needed a a second a second gun, she would go with you and and follow you behind the door. She's ready to go.

[01:07:05]>> Excellent.

[01:07:05]>> This is one of the things that just bothers her to no end. She's ready to train. She's she's all ready to go. So, >> excellent. But >> but that's So, if if a if someone wants to get involved and help and volunteer, is there a place that a guy can plug in?

[01:07:20]So, one of the things that I have learned over the last probably 10 or 15 years of traveling this world is that, you know, I think Ben Owen's a great example. He is all over the place, but where where is he focused? Memphis, right? That's that's his community. He is deep in Memphis. I strongly suggest, you know, and I did this assessment at the end of 23. I still remember looking back at 23. I was in 12 14 countries and then all the stuff I was doing here in the US but looking back at at what was happening but did I make a difference and I do something meaningful and at the time it was great you know you go and you get all the the recognition and all the the people are are motivated and happy and then you look back at what they're doing most of the time it's it's not much if anything's going to happen it's in your community and I love what Scott man is always saying is uh nobody's coming to save us >> you know it's up to you you can't save the world, but you can make a difference in your community. And I would say if anybody wants to volunteer, look at your homeless shelters. Look at uh what Big Brothers and Big Sisters. Is that still, you know, if that's around in your area, be a mentor to a child, you know, especially men. You need to step up and and show these these boys that don't have any male role models in their life.

[01:08:30]You need to show them what it means to be masculine, to be a man, to be a gentleman.

[01:08:34]>> Yeah. uh we we can set those examples, you know, go go pay off a a child's, you know, pay for a child to have lunch every day for a year or a month or whatever you can afford. Some of these children are are operating on very little. So I I think if we look to our own communities because everybody wants to So one of the things I was dealing with in Oklahoma, there's a lot of money in Tulsa, energy, oil, gas, all of that.

[01:09:00]I I wasn't real surprised to see that a lot of that money was going global, which is great. We do need to help the the people in Africa, in Thailand, or wherever else you're going to donate money. But they were doing that under the assumption that I got no problems in my own backyard, you know, and I I pull Skull Games in and we go hit smalltown Oklahoma on a Wednesday and we're arresting people and and recovering victims and identifying their traffickers. That sent a shock wave. So, in your own community, this stuff is happening. There are vulnerable people.

[01:09:29]Find a find a victim's uh find a shelter, battered women's shelter. Find a human trafficking shelter. See if you can volunteer. You know, see if you can go pick up a pick up a victim and her children that have been involved in years of abuse. Bring them bring them to church with you on Sunday. Let them go eat lunch with your family to see what it's like to be in a functional family.

[01:09:51]Do something with them. You know, that's powerful.

[01:09:54]>> Engage. Be a mentor.

[01:09:55]>> Yeah. I I completely agree. I completely agree. We often times I wrote I wrote a book and you're in the back of it.

[01:10:02]>> Yes. Yeah.

[01:10:02]>> But uh as as a hero Yeah. And one of the things I ch out of the church about is is that we want to do big things. We want to go on a mission trip overseas when and we overlook and we step over the bodies in the in the gutter beside the church to get to the bus to get on to go to the plane to take us overseas.

[01:10:19]And that's that's a problem because it's it's um convenient Christianity. It's convenient faith. is convenient service.

[01:10:29]It's, you know, it's planned. It's it's it's lined out. And so many times we step over what God's got for us as service to get to something that is is like you said, it feels good, it looks good, but does it have lasting as much lasting purpose it would if you just preached down and pulled that person up that's right there beside you?

[01:10:51]>> Yeah. I' I'd love to uh when I was in Oklahoma, I was involved with different different religious organizations.

[01:10:57]Catholic Church, you know, the Baptist, you know, the various organizations. I'm not complaining, but I never went to one where I sat by a homeless person or I saw a homeless person or I saw somebody who was not dressed really nice. That really struck me that what are we doing?

[01:11:13]We're sitting here talking about this every Sunday and then we forget about it till the next Sunday we talk about it again.

[01:11:18]>> I'd like to see some execution. If you want to do that, you want to talk about this being good to people, go get them, pick them up and bring them here.

[01:11:25]>> Yeah. bring them to lunch, feed them, give them something to engage in.

[01:11:29]>> You know, we're good at we're good at food closets and and and things like that, but that means people have to get to you. You know, some of these people don't have a way to get to you. So, how do they get the food that you've got in your in your pantry in your closet at your church when they can't even get to the church? I think there's so much more the churches could be doing. I think there's so much more that >> um we need to be doing. And I think you know the the the the reason I wrote the book was because Scott man a conversation I had with Scott at >> the afterparty one his at his play was he said nobody's coming to save you. He said we got all these nonprofits out there that are doing the work that the church used to do. And I was like boy that hit you right square in the face when you're a Christian. And um it's it's it's powerful and I appreciate what you guys do. you guys put put, you know, boots on the ground behind what you say and and it's I know it's not always easy. I know you've gotten out of the the uh attorney general's office and you're doing things a little bit differently now and probably from a nonprofit standard.

[01:12:27]>> I'm actually the vice president of the law enforcement division for Hooster and Owl Intelligence. So, >> but you're still doing all the other stuff, correct? I mean, you're still >> Yeah, I'm still doing the other stuff and and being supported by Hooster. So, they're they're supporting me and they're actually supporting the the counterhuman trafficking efforts. So we we've got a lot of data we provide free of charge to law enforcement to combat human trafficking. Uh we're working with Skull Games and you know there there's a lot to be done.

[01:12:51]>> Yeah. Tees and Scarushi do good work from what I understand they do.

[01:12:53]>> Oh, excellent work. Y >> I'd love to talk to those guys on here.

[01:12:56]Love to get Teags and or Scare the one on. So if you got any if you got any way to pull those strings, let me know.

[01:13:02]>> I'll uh I'll do an intro.

[01:13:03]>> All right. Cool. Cool. You know anything about uh Street Grace over here in in Atlanta? They they have the bot that they use.

[01:13:12]>> I I I don't know. I I know of them, but I I don't know them. I think I got introduced to the guy leading that, but I haven't haven't had a conversation yet.

[01:13:19]>> Yeah. A good buddy of mine works with them, and they're they're bots doing some amazing stuff, too. So, I And it's always amazing to me how sometimes uh in the in the in the nonprofit sector, you these guys eat their own. They uh >> Yep.

[01:13:35]>> they they tend to I guess fighting for the same dollars. They tend to >> Yeah, it gets nasty. This is a friend of mine retired from the federal from a federal agency and he commented not too long ago. He said, "I'm I'm really tired of this. I'm consulting, but the backstabbing and the character assassination and the competing for dollars. It's nasty. Nasty from one organization to another."

[01:13:55]>> Yeah, I can imagine. You're amazing if everybody could get together and pull tools and pull expertise and what could actually be done. It'd be amazing. But no, it's it's it's it's amaz but again of different uh ways to to to skin a cat. Hopefully we get the cat skint and uh make some make some inroads if that's even a good analogy. We had to cut that out on it works.

[01:14:17]>> But Kevin, thank you so much. Marty, you got anything else?

[01:14:19]>> I'm I'm good, man. It's been good.

[01:14:22]>> Kevin, thank you so muchent man. I appreciate you coming on and uh >> if we can ever be of service to you, let us know. How can people support your work? Do or do you need our support? I mean, >> you know, I right now uh working with Skull Games primarily on the nonprofit side. You know, Hooster and AL, they're it's a private company, but you know, we're we're equipping law enforcement with with data and the ability to analyze large amounts of data and actually manage the the law enforcement full spectrum. So, you know, nothing there. But I would say Skull Games is the the organization that I I really work with a lot. Work with Ben Owen. So, you know, supporting him would help out.

[01:14:59]just find out what moves you or if you want to help me out, find something in your local community and support them.

[01:15:05]>> Big deal, man. Kevin, uh, amazed at what you do, thankful for what you do. We appreciate you, brother.

[01:15:10]>> Thank you, Kevin.

[01:15:10]>> Thank you, >> guys. Thanks for thanks for joining us today on uh Bonfire Man podcast. We always uh are thankful you show up for us. And uh tonight, remember Kevin and his and and Skull Games and Ben Owen and everybody else in doing this work and in your prayers and lift them up cuz I'm sure they can use it. So guys, thank y'all. Have a great day and see you next time.

[01:15:31]>> See you later. Thank you.