Italy's Prime Minister Flips On Trump…But Why Now?

本站添加: 2026-05-05

[00:00:00]What the hell is going on with Europe?

[00:00:03]>> Italy's Prime Minister, Georgia Maloney, said that her government has suspended a defense cooperation pact with Israel.

[00:00:10]The farright government has until now been one of Israel's closest supporters in Europe.

[00:00:14]>> She was considered Donald Trump's closest ally here in Europe, but she's denounced his decision to go to war with Iran.

[00:00:21]>> In Europe, people want peace. They don't understand that the peace that they want is much worse than war. you have an enemy that is the the essence of evil.

[00:00:33]More specifically, what we'd like to focus on today is Italian Prime Minister Georgia Maloney. Um who this week uh she used to be called the Trump whisperer and she was a big friend of Israel's and this week uh one by one she has uh really turned on both countries. Uh with me to discuss this is my dear friend and colleague Fama Nerenstein who is not only an expert in terrorism, the Middle East and anti-semitism, but she served for years as the deputy chair of the foreign affairs and defense committee of the Italian Parliament. So she knows Italian politics inside and out and also knows Maloney personally.

[00:01:20]Fama, welcome. And uh I'd really like to ask you what is going on? I mean, what this week Meloney did a few things, said a few things, and she really enraged Trump.

[00:01:34]>> Look, Ruthie, there are specific and general events that define this situation. And just because of this, it is so interesting because it connects to the general worldwide situation, the relationship with Trump, the specific relation with the Jews and Israel and also with anti-semitism.

[00:01:54]And it it connects to a person, a woman, a young woman that has been until today not a calm but certainly a a balanced figure about the relationship with Israel and and the western world in general. So let's say the last events connect Trump, the Pope, Italy and Europe. Trump and the Pope. What's happened with the Pope? The pope gives a speech where as many popes do prays for the peace but praying for the peace attacks whoever wags war. But which kind of war? He says colonialist war. This makes Trump very angry. And you know actually when you say col colonial colonialist war it's not very sympathetic toward the war. It's not just a general condemnation of whoever wags war. It's a specific condemnation.

[00:02:57]And Trump feels it like this. So not only that he answer to the pope, he attacks the popes and he say what do you understand of this kind of things just pray the lord and do not interfere in politics because it's something that you do not understand about. He just says this in a very tough way and you know you know that the pope for the Catholic is infallibly which means that according just to the definition of pope the pope cannot be wrong. Infallibility cannot make a mistake. So all the Christian word makes a big reaction and revolution not only in Italy which is the Catholic state for excellence. There is the Vatican in Rome, but all over in Europe and all over the Catholic and part also of the other Christians in the world.

[00:03:54]Everybody reacts. Everybody defends the pope. Everybody attack Trump because in the world in Europe, everybody waits for an occasion to attack Trump and this is a good occasion and they attack him.

[00:04:07]Melon waits one day and then she thinks about it because as you said actually she had a particularly good relationship with Trump and then she reacts. She's the prime minister of the most Catholic country and uh and she says that it she finds extremely improper and wrong and uh whatever the the way that Trump attacked. Trump answers to her and tells her you are wrong. you are wrong because you have been justifying uh a war against the state that wants to own the the atomic bombs that could destroy you two. So he takes all the subjects inside and tells Melan that she's out. She's out of his sympathies.

[00:05:03]He he's out of of his uh way of considering friends. So she's out of it.

[00:05:10]She puts herself out. Why did she do it?

[00:05:13]Why did she do it? The fact is that uh as I said though, number one, she cannot be against the pope. She must be in favor of the pope because she's the Italian prime minister. Number two, the story starts with a referendum about the juridical frame where Italy lives in. I won't go into details, but I will tell you that it's about Oh, look at that.

[00:05:39]the power of the judges.

[00:05:42]So Melanie being a right-winger is against the power of the judges and in this referendum she's on the side that wants to win declaring itself against the full large power of the judges. And what happens then? She loses. The left wins.

[00:06:02]So the left jumps on her very harshly and she start thinking what they have I done wrong.

[00:06:12]In the meanwhile Orban loses his battle.

[00:06:16]the right wing that looks uh you know in in Europe looked like something that was going to grow anyhow mostly because of the problem of the immigrants change uh kibon way change direction and she finds herself in a situation where she starts thinking maybe I have to get some small some leftwing element to grow again in the consensus of the Italian people. So these two things put together uh that were there since the time of the Gaza war because she was surrounded by people that was suggesting to her genocide uh fa famine uh killing children and whatsoever and she tried to resist them but all the time just saying stop the war don't do this don't do that yes we are in favor of Israel but this time she completely gives up she gives up and says I cancel my my agreement. She didn't say I cancel. I do not renew. And here too there is you know like a shade of hope for the future. She says I do not renew the signature uh to the agreement that was signed I think in 2004 uh of the of the defense agreement between Italy and Israel. And so now all the things have been put in this in the same uh basin and and here you have the relationship with Trump and the relationship with Israel that are considered by at least half of the Italian population very bad relations and uh so Melan left uh her faithfulness to the west to try a new way. This is what's going on.

[00:08:06]I don't think that she believes completely in that but you know it's an experiment to reconquer the the consensus that she feels like having lo lost a little bit. So how ironic is it that the left especially the far left in the west they tend not to be pro- relligion. Okay. So, what's ironic here is that you'd say the Italian left, they're coming to defend the Pope. And I'm sure that many of those leftists don't like the Vatican and don't like the especially the old Catholic ways, you know, the anti-abortion and anti-gay, all of those anti-feminist. Um but of course with the increasing wokeness of the popes that uh the they're more inclusive but what I'd like to um ask you about is okay so the pope he didn't only say about wars are bad as you said I mean pope say that wars are bad and you know Christ Jesus Christ is against war he also said we should stop being afraid of Islam and he went to address he he catered to this isn't the first pope who's done this saying um is actually sort of um catering to Muslims and so it's not just the Catholic world and so what you have is again that fits in with the immigration and all that but President Trump one of the things he indicated was really where were you when all those thousand tens of thousands of Iranians were being slaughtered by the Islamic regime regime. Did we hear you say uh why are they doing that?

[00:09:50]Interesting.

[00:09:51]>> Very interesting. You can sum to the th tens of thousands of Iranians that were slaughtered, the tens of thousands of Christians that have been slaughtered by Muslim all over Africa and wherever else because you know the the the terrorist attacks of the Islamic terrorism is all over. It's in Europe too. So this is quite a this is quite a subject that the church refuse to deal with because they simply there is a word to define it that they it's fear they are afraid of this immense uh wave of new presence that they still hope that they can evangelize one day they can convert them somehow and then then um and then look in any case the only one that faced the problem was the previous previous pope, the one that was before Franciscus, that was a totally uh ktoonist, I say in Italian, KTO, Franciscus, the the previous one. And and the one before him is the one that um that just um uh at a certain point decided that he didn't want to go on anymore. Benedictus was just because of this because he dared attacking the the Islam saying they see things in a different way from ours. They he didn't say exactly they love death more than we love life. But the the the deep meaning of his criticism was just about this life and death and then at the end of the day terrorism and killing for their faith. He was very much against it. He wrote a book about it. He was very clear and then he had to resign. This was the poe this was the pope that resigned actually the the the greatest that but still look um uh the point about all of the consensus that you rightly have noticed about the pope even from sides that never like particularly not the priest, not the church, not the pope, no nothing that that are much walker than the pope. you see much much worker than than the pope because I mean we don't know what this pope thinks about changing sex or being elder but this is not the kind of work that also the people that just say that this pope is so right what is he right in front of Trump is the issue today >> Trump so what's happening today and this This is something that I think uh needs uh needs a lot of uh thought and um and definition and trying to understand why is Trump. I also think that uh Trump did not bring much luck to the to the elections where Orban has been defeated.

[00:13:01]I'm afraid that um Melan is afraid that the relationship with the United States of Trump and with Trump himself will not bring her luck in the elections that will take place in one year from now. So you know why? Because Europe always has a terrible difficulties in defining its own identity. What is Europe? I mean uh France and Germany, England and France or Spain though the and Italy and and Germany. These will be countries that has been waging wars against one another for thousands of years. And even in the previous century, this is what they have been doing. Fighting like like uh bullies in the in the in the all the on the in the past. The first world war has been a terrible destruction of all the bloody and also a destructions of values. This is in fact where the United States come up. You know that's the time when where the the Europe sinks down and the United States come up as the worldwide power that will change the world that will become the first world power. It was not like this until the first world war. This happens then when Europe destroys itself and then the second world war that we all know what it has been basically basically a a a a disgusting uh uh war where the the Shawah has taken place in the hands of a of a of a dictator h plus another smaller dictator Mussolini nearby Hitler that has been fighting without being able to win if America were not there.

[00:15:10]Who knows even if Churchill was a hero and brought England with all of his might inside the world. But still we needed America.

[00:15:19]Since then, Europe has not found itself and there still an open account with the United States that have always saved it and always demonstrated they are stronger than anybody else. So, anti-Americanism is surfacing in any situation. And what can be better for anti-Americanism to surface than being so closely a friend of the Jews?

[00:15:51]the Jews that have been always persecuted in Europe that have always been defined whenever Europe didn't find itself as an excuse to b their times into into slaughters and uh destruction while not being able to build their own society. We find this phenomenon now day in the Arab world. They bind their their time in slaughters and definition of the Jewish state. I'm speaking about the Shiite now. Uh while not being able to to build their own existence, their own richness, their own societies. So Europe has this two points that never come to because they do because Europe doesn't find itself And uh this is one of these times, you know, uh since the beginning since the 7th of October, if you look at Melon uh well, you know, you cannot define her as bad as Spain. Certainly not. Spain has been I will never forget a few days after the 7th of October Sanchez standing in front there he went to Gaza just already crying for a ceasefire before everything started he he he was already there on the side of the Palestinians >> uh I think he's been uh with other three European states the one that has declared uh that has um uh voted for the Palestinian states. There are four states in Europe that have done it already, but the European Union has not yet done it. Largely also because Orban was able all the time to put vetos on many resolution and closing the door to the possibility that this will happen. They it was ne never never officially proposed because the European Union and Melani always said I am for two states for two people but when there will come the time that the Palestinians renounce uh to the idea of this of the of destroying the state of Israel more or less that that is his her position when when the Palestinians will be ready for that. this is the way. But in the meanwhile, her request for a ceasefire were were there all the time with Biden non nonstop all the time. Um her declarations about the non the the that Israel was answering in a non balanced way. How do you say that?

[00:18:47]There is a special word to say not balance uh in a over o over responding to the just >> oh uh disproportionate >> disproportionate. Then somebody asked her about genocide.

[00:19:02]She never took a position never said the word genocide but never denied the word genocide and let it grow among the population. And then now there are many other position that have been taken. Ah, and then the other important thing was that she said, "Oh, well, Batil refused to sell weapons to Israel because our constitution forbids uh to sell weapons to any country that is in at war." So, you know, this kind of trying to to confuse the waters so nobody understand exactly what she say.

[00:19:38]But then what she says comes clear. Now, uh, when she refuses to to let um use the base of Siggonella, which is the American base in in Italy, uh, for the flights to bomb Iran.

[00:19:57]So I I I think you know politics is politics and I can understand that she feels that uh pacifism is a is an illness that has no brain. It has only heart. So people want peace in Europe. People want peace. They don't understand that the peace that they want is much worse than war because it gives weapons to the side that wants to kill and kill and kill and after they kill us also to kill them. They have no brain for that. It's unbelievable how this loss of a cognitive process that allows them to understand that 1 + 1 is two.

[00:20:50]Then it's it's gone. It's not there anymore, you know.

[00:20:54]>> Well, you know, you're such an expert.

[00:20:56]You've written so much about anti-semitism and you and your old mentor friend, good friend, the late Robert Wistridge, who wrote extensively about it. And as you and he both have pointed out many, many times um that a it doesn't what starts with the Jews doesn't end with the Jews.

[00:21:18]and societies that allow anti-semitism to fester are declining societies, dying societies. So now you have the European countries that were supposed to be, you know, western enlightened uh allies with the United States, NATO, etc. They are succumbing to this especially after October 7th. Even though there was a taboo after the World War II, there was there were anti-semites, but it wasn't proper to to hate Jews in public. And yeah, this is because it was hard for them to make to make the link uh between anti-semitism and human rights. this that's the reason why they were able to do it in the open light in the open air just proclaiming their anti-semitism the moment when they could say that their anti-semitism defends the the Palestinian children you see what I mean um so so why this this is very much because uh this this kind of way has been built and nurtured and then first from the uh from the communist ideology the USS the USSR has been the one that really had the fantastic thought to imagine that the human rights the black the women yeah they had rights that were offended by capitalism while communist was were defending them and they they and around is they created plenty of alliances with the third world that they transferred inside the United Nation. Now the United Nations becomes them and strongly develops this uh this way of existing in the 60s with with Kruch. Crucial was a genius of this kind of uh building. Uh and there the relationship uh immediately between uh communist countries >> uh USSR and third world country becomes lethal for Israel and for the United States too.

[00:23:50]It's a it's something that has allowed uh first of all in 1975 the resolution Zionism is a racism. Okay. which to me I remember that the first time I heard about this uh this resolution I couldn't really understand what is it about how how come these two terms go together you know it was really hard to understand how and the development of this arrives until 2001 uh to Durban where where uh the anti-racist conference becomes anti-semite.

[00:24:34]It's a long way that has been very much frequented by Europe because Europe, the European Union and and um and the United Nation have been walking together uh trying to define their identity through the idea of human rights.

[00:25:03]which has been overturned into the the rights of the poor, the immigrants, the the third world and against uh against the the the west the the western building the the Jew the Judeo-Christian society in that that's I maybe I I put I put it too much in a small uh in a small box this concept But this this is it. I don't know if I if I'm being clear in >> You are being clear. But you see again, you know, I'm naive. I get it. But these leaders uh and Maloney for sure. These leaders, they've been to the United States. Many of them have been to Israel. Let's say, okay, human rights is your religion, right? Yeah.

[00:25:53]>> You've it's become it's a religion.

[00:25:55]Human rights that term and all of it's included all of these things. So actually Israel and the United States are societies that have more human rights than any other place um welcoming stranger uh in gay rights, women's rights, name it, freedom, total freedom.

[00:26:16]How can an intelligent person look at that um and say actually those countries are the bad guys and the places that torture women, subjugate them, make them wear cover their faces and bodies um against who throw uh gay people off rooftops. All of those things that they're against. Oh, and are very racist. By the way, you know, you mentioned the Durban conference. It's the height of hypocrisy that South Africa and af Afric a Africa is a very racist place. They ca they care about skin tone more than white people do. And uh so what I'm saying is that there you can witness this. You can witness it in Israel and in America and in Europe and still deny it, be blinded to that and still side with the Islamopfascists somehow see them as the victims. See, but it's a it's a war of concepts, you know. First I want to say something related to Melan. Melon is not that kind because Milan is a right-wing person.

[00:27:24]And you have to take in mind that she's not just going uh on that path. Her path is different. She she's she says, "I'm a woman. I'm a mother. I'm a Christian.

[00:27:36]I'm for the family." So she she goes on a different path and then there comes the moment of politics where she has to understand that that kind of politics that you describe now is stronger than her and it it touches badly the issue of immigration because she has been brave on that. I mean she tried to stop the immigration. Did she succeed? No, she didn't succeed. It's too hard to stop the immigration because the immigration is billions of people pushing on Europe.

[00:28:05]you know that in many of the capital towns of the European uh countries Muhammad is the first name that is given to newborns you know so so she in Italy it's not like this yet because actually it has been uh contained I wouldn't say stopped but contained more so the the siege uh the siege there the siege there is not so strangling as as someone as somewhere else is there is there and I could tell you about many episode that show it and also there is a lot of criminality connected to that but Melan about this uh has been has been good has been even brave some I mean she she's she's different and also um I think that she together with all the Italian right repented about anti-semitism I wouldn't say that she has never felt a hint of that in her youth because the movement that she belonged to were anti-semite movements. So maybe there is an eco somewhere there in in her part in her movements and sometimes she feels also that but she actually was good. I remember I founded as in my role in the Italian parliament uh the commission against anti-semitism and as she was the minister for youth I heard her she was heard by me and I know her you know on a daily basis I saw her in the parliament all the time she w she's she's she's a good scholar I mean she knows a lot she studies all the time she speaks good English which is something uh unbelievable for an Italian member of parliament it's it's a rare It's a rare thing. I hope that this is changing. At my time, that was really ter. And but when I heard her um speaking about anti-semitism, her description, her studies was were really, you know, fixed as you say just I remember I was satisfied and I thought to myself, oh look, she was it was not such a such a tsunami of anti-semitism as you see today. there was anti-semitism but and she described it without mercy d with a directly without justifying and with a wish of fighting it. So I must say that she is not that that kind going to that kind that you describe. Now we must keep in mind that there are two concept that clash okay with with um this mentality and this is the reason why uh they will never accept for instance that Israel is such a liberal country. Why? Because Israel is and feels like a nation. the concept of nationality clashes with all of the description that you made now. And I think that if you if you love your country, if you are a nationalist and for instance in Europe, if you're not all of yourselves, yes, you are Italian, but you want Europe very much and you must be in favor of Europe. And there must not come a day where you say, "I'm criticizing Europe from the roots."

[00:31:22]If you do that, you're out of the game.

[00:31:25]you're out of the game because you put again in front your nationalist feeling and nationalism and fascism are always uh put together. This is number one.

[00:31:35]Number two, and maybe you should put it in the front place. It's war. What are you waging war? What are you telling me that you are waging war because you want to save your skin? No. This is not this not enough for me. You want to save your skin, go and tell it to someone else.

[00:31:53]What I want you to do is just make peace because we want peace because otherwise you are a killer of children. Otherwise you want a genocide. They cannot afford the concept of war and nation. The moment where they when they are on the table all of Europe will get terribly confused.

[00:32:15]So, so you don't have only the Spanish but you have uh the British, the French, the everybody standing there and uh you know you know all of this issue of Lebanon is it so hard for them to understand that 60,000 Israeli has been have been kicked out from their homes because the persecute them day by day after day since 30 years. Is it so hard for them to understand that the north of Israel must be liberated from? Yes, it is. It is terribly hard. Why that? Because this is an Arab country. Therefore, it's a poor country. Therefore, it needs protection.

[00:33:03]And Macron is the champion on on this.

[00:33:08]So, I think that very well did Israel do. that didn't admit Macron in the >> in the talks >> in the talks.

[00:33:15]>> Yes. Absolutely.

[00:33:16]>> Absolutely. That's the way that should behave Israel.

[00:33:20]>> Okay. So, you make an excellent point about Maloney because she's a conservative politically and all that.

[00:33:24]So, in a year there's elections. She also saw what happened to Victor Orban.

[00:33:30]>> She also sees where the wind the political wind is blowing in her country, which is what a politician does. But then what it tells you, it tells you one of two things. Either she is she doesn't believe what she's saying and is doing it because she wants to get reelected or she does believe it. And what that tells me is whereas if that's true that the only way she can get elected again is by having bad politics, then that tells you that something about Italy, about Italy as a whole. um if that's the way if those are the policies she needs to adopt in order to get reelected then either she's um turning her back on her own ideology or she's just giving in to and then what you're saying is then Italy is is finished in a way uh in that sense finished in the sense of giving up or you said a national character which is very odd for Europe by the way since every country has a different language language, a language, different food, different culture. It's very funny. Um, just by virtue of language, they're completely different, you know, totally totally different. Totally different.

[00:34:50]And it's very hard for Europe to to be built, to be formed just because of what you're saying now.

[00:34:56]Not only that they are, but they are also enemies between one another.

[00:35:00]Whatever they would say.

[00:35:01]>> Yeah.

[00:35:02]>> They don't like one another. They don't they don't if you hear what a British will say about a French you know I remember myself entering in the church where where there is the um the thumb of Napoleon because I wanted to visit it and I asked in English am I right if I go into here to see and the guy looked at me and say in franches he told me in French he told me if you ask if you ask this to me in English I will never never answer to you I had to ask it in because otherwise he would never answer me.

[00:35:36]>> So there you go. Well, but I will just, you know, one of the things that I'd like to end on is this. Um Trump with all his vulgarity, and he is vulgar. He can be very vulgar, but what he is, he seems, and people say he's crazy, but actually he's been extremely consistent about where he stands in the general where he stands about the good guys, the bad guys, and and I'm impressed that he just comes out and says so. He was really close to Maloney. He really liked her, and uh now he says, "No, you're weak and you're wrong." And that's it.

[00:36:16]You're no longer So we're no longer free.

[00:36:17]>> Now look, I I would put here a point that that take take your points and and makes a difference because you're totally right about the main issue of the story.

[00:36:32]Trump just is is doing um is making a right war against Iran. And this everybody must know because they have seen the Iranian killing 50,000 people in the street shooting in their face number one and they see this since you know since 1979 the many revolution that there have been women and children and also because they they have heard the Iranians uh basing their their power on terrorism killing people all over the world. Um uh uh uh proxies like that made their rage from heavy drug uh in in South America and most of all threatening Israel of of total destruction. While in the frame there the the threat of building the bombs always contained also a a threat to all the west to all the west that that that is clear. I mean whoever has some brain in his head. So here you are right. How can you blame so much a war against such an enemy? This is something that that puts up what I say is the denial of any cognitive discourse that should be done today. you have an enemy that is the the essence of evil. You must recognize that that so this is the first point and you are right on that. Then there comes Trump. Okay. Trump says you European are despisable because you don't want to put money in your own defense.

[00:38:19]Okay. Uh the pope says that I'm a colonial warrior and I'm not a colonial warrior. I'm just waging a war. But please, you don't understand about that.

[00:38:29]Why do you say this word colonial? What is it about? And then uh and then Trump is somebody that always makes a face of disgust of despise of so you know he created a situation and I would add here something I'm sorry that they the European add Netanyahu to Trump in this description you know Trump and Netanyahu Netanyahu and Trump and there is nothing in common in the behavior between the two nothing in common. Netanyao is a gentleman the way >> he's full of gravitas. Netanyao.

[00:39:17]>> See, >> but that's even more telling, you see, because the fact that they're lumped together shows you that even someone who's not vulgar at all, who has gravitas, who knows how to explain himself in more than one language, who is eloquent and articulate in a way that Trump is not and doesn't tweet things and it doesn't help him in their in their eyes. That's what I mean. Okay.

[00:39:44]So, >> so it's just Trump's behavior.

[00:39:47]>> No, but you know with Nathaniel then here comes another issue which is always the way I see it the most important.

[00:39:58]He's Jewish. So here comes another comes another issue and you know your questions about anti-semitism are all very real questions because in front of this kind of anti-semitism that we are facing today we really have to sit scratch our head and try to because in front of the 7th of October we afterwards cried a lot scratched our head and started fighting.

[00:40:30]Now, in front of these anti-semites, we are still crying, scratching our head, and we don't find a way to fight. So, I mean, it's about time that we start doing that. And uh well, on that important note, uh we're wrapping this up and uh I uh urge all of you to read Fyama's many daily pieces in jns.org.

[00:40:56]Um she's one of the most prolific writers around and certainly in JNS. Um and always enlightening and it's always a pleasure to talk to you and until next time.

[00:41:07]>> Same with me. Thank you so much.