Enforcing Laws On A Plane | Episode 127 | Justice Matters Podcast

Added: 2026-05-11

[00:00:04]Breaking and entering, drunk and disorderly law and order. A former prosecutor and a defense barrista, not your usual pairing. And the result, conversations about crime and punishment that are guaranteed to get you thinking.

[00:00:19]>> Welcome to Justice Matters, a weekly podcast with Lizzie Green and Jay Merchant. Our episodes are every Monday on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and YouTube.

[00:00:28]Follow us on Instagram at justice matters pod for clips. Enjoy the episode.

[00:00:37]>> Well, good morning, Liz.

[00:00:39]>> Good morning, Jay.

[00:00:39]>> How's it going?

[00:00:40]>> Very well. How are you?

[00:00:41]>> Yeah, really good, thank you. Really good. It was snowing back in Canada and I'm laughing all the way because there's no snow here.

[00:00:48]>> But it is cold.

[00:00:49]>> Yeah. Yeah, it is. Well, for you guys, it's cold, but >> Well, it's not meant to be cold here.

[00:00:53]>> I'm still wearing shorts, so it's not that cold.

[00:00:56]Hey, look. Today I want to talk about a couple things. All right. So, normally it's death, murder stuff from me, and I'm we're not going to do that today.

[00:01:05]>> We are there are uh former episodes that we've touched on that have been reinvigorated by media reports. So, I do want to give some updates on that.

[00:01:14]Excellent. All right. So, we're going to talk about >> the death penalty. We're going to talk about police accutraments and equipment.

[00:01:20]And we're going to talk about artificial intelligence.

[00:01:23]>> Ah, >> yes.

[00:01:24]a stunning report from Canada and then we'll get on to the substantive episode and that's going to be dealing with airlines and unruly passengers.

[00:01:32]>> Oh dear.

[00:01:33]>> Yes.

[00:01:35]>> But to start off, let's talk about the death penalty because we did an episode back in the day. I think it was my first episode where we talked about Thomas Steven Saunders in Louisiana and President Biden then at the time on the eve of his final days commuted and pardoned 37 out of the foring 40 remaining death row matters in the United States.

[00:02:00]>> They were the federal ones for >> the federal ones. Yes. And so just just hot off the press, the US Department of Justice released a report just recently saying they are changing course in a very big way.

[00:02:15]>> Oh wow.

[00:02:16]>> Yeah. And so they criticized the government the the then Biden administration on their moratorum and the decisions not to execute those individuals. And the report itself goes through the purpose of the death penalty. It talks about denunciation, deterrence, and all of that. And they go through some examples. So in 1997, I can still picture it cuz I was watching it on TV when Timothy McVey and those involved blew up the Alfred Pri Mura Federal Building in Oklahoma. I can still picture it.

[00:02:55]>> You would have been pretty little then.

[00:02:56]>> Yeah, I was Yeah, I was just a little guy then. But I I and and they were sentenced to death. And part of what President Trump is relying on to bolster this movement for the death penalty is on victims and the families of those that have been murdered by individuals. And I I str I I didn't think of it that way because in the sense of some of the impact on victim's families. So when President Biden commuted or pardoned, whatever it was, this report says that the families were not contacted, were not consulted before those decisions were made.

[00:03:44]>> Right.

[00:03:46]>> And that's problematic.

[00:03:47]>> Well, yes. I mean, we've we've been critical of of any kind of gap in communication with victims or their families and prosecutorial decisions or things like that. So, yes, I can see that that's a valid point.

[00:04:04]>> I uh do we think that victims will only feel justice is served if they are executed? Well, and that's what I don't know because, you know, it's something I hadn't really thought of.

[00:04:18]And then when I read this report that was just released on the 24th, the report talks about families after an execution and their comments. So for instance, there was a serial killer named Dustin Lee Honin who murdered a number of people and the family provided a statement after an execution that finally justice is being done. It'll bring a sense of closure uh but we will continue to live with our loss. However, this is a step towards healing of broken hearts and shattered lives.

[00:04:56]And so there's a number of excerpts from family members after an execution that you know we appreciate President Trump and this brings us closure. We're going on with our lives. Justice has been served. This type of sentiments.

[00:05:13]>> I look I I am thankfully not able to completely understand how these families and victims feel. like I I could never presume to say that, but I find it difficult to comprehend when you think about people who choose to go and watch an execution.

[00:05:37]Uh, and I I try and think if someone killed one of my family members, would I want to watch that killer be executed?

[00:05:47]Would I want that person to be executed?

[00:05:50]And probably part of me would, but I don't know that that necessarily makes it right to do it. You know what I mean?

[00:05:59]>> Yeah. I I'm not sure either. I mean, they've been caught, apprehended, convicted, and then I guess whether or not you would go to the actual execution, I'm just not sure. And I'm glad that I'm not sure. I'm glad that I don't that we don't have that problem.

[00:06:15]>> Yes. and that decision to make >> part of what also is included in this report and the administration is moving forward with additional measures of execution and so you know traditionally there's been three drug lethal injection there's been the gas chamber electric chair but they're now looking at the problems with that sourcing drugs and everything >> the expense >> the expense And now they're looking at a highly effective, cheaper method and it's the firing squad. They're rolling it out. And so >> sorry.

[00:06:55]>> Yeah, >> they're they're going to have a firing squad reintroduced.

[00:07:00]>> Yes, they are looking at >> in the US >> in the United States.

[00:07:04]>> Okay. But why is that fair to the people who have to be on that firing squad?

[00:07:11]>> Oh, that Yeah. And that that's that's a whole different issue, right? And so they've set up protocols whereby there would be, you know, somebody at the other end with a target and then they would have, I don't know, eight, let's say, eight people with rifles and only some had real bullets and some didn't.

[00:07:30]And so >> Jay, >> yeah.

[00:07:32]>> Oh, that's so problematic.

[00:07:34]>> It is. And like I I'm looking at it trying from both sides. If they're having troubles with the drugs working, if they're having troubles with the gas, the nitrogen gas working, the bullet in a firing squad will work.

[00:07:53]>> Well, but do people immediately die from a bullet wound?

[00:07:56]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:07:57]>> Oh, they do.

[00:07:57]>> Oh, yeah. No.

[00:07:58]>> Instant.

[00:07:58]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, >> what if the bullet doesn't go on the right side?

[00:08:01]>> Well, if there's a And we're going to get into this. If there's a Glock that misfires, >> then yeah, >> but I think the premise is is that it's cheaper, it's quicker, more humane if you want to look at the humane side of things. I mean, there were some states where some people it took three times for the gas to work or the drugs can't be sourced because the pharmaceutical company is anti Do you see what I'm saying? Well, and I I just have that um definite uh vision in my head. Was it from um what was that movie where they killed the big um offender who who could save the little rat in Oh, anyway, doesn't matter. And the electric chair didn't work. They didn't put the >> Okay.

[00:08:51]>> Anyway, >> yeah, >> not the green. I can't remember what it was. Maybe it was the green mile.

[00:08:55]Anyway, sorry. Went down a rabbit hole there.

[00:08:57]>> No. And so we're going to be seeing a ramp up in executions in the states now. And part of the other proposal that's put forward and I hope that there are some groups that have read this report is the delay in the legal process because it takes a long time. You're guaranteed an appeal and it takes a long time. And this proposal is looking at reducing timelines.

[00:09:28]>> So I mean I've said before that I am not in favor of the death penalty.

[00:09:34]>> Yeah.

[00:09:34]>> Like that's not a secret. And I I guess these measures um just heighten my concern. Like I >> we know for a fact there are miscarriages of justice. We know for a fact that people are wrongfully convicted and there have been so many stories of people whose innocence was proven after they had been executed. And I think that is just the biggest reason not to have the death penalty cuz you can't take that mistake back.

[00:10:11]>> Yeah. And I mean there's so many issues surrounding it, right? Who makes that determination? It's the people, right?

[00:10:17]the jurors will, you know, here we have judges that sentence and hand down sentences. And in certain jurisdictions, you've got jury members saying, "Put them in the gas chamber."

[00:10:30]>> And so, it's more of a populist type response than let's sever the emotion and look at the law.

[00:10:38]>> Wow. Okay. Yeah. And and you know in that episode that we talked about this Thomas Steven Saunders who was commuted from a sentence of death to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. I can update everyone that he has been indicted by a Louisiana grand jury to be on trial for a state >> murder trial.

[00:11:03]>> Good.

[00:11:03]>> Where the death penalty is an option.

[00:11:06]Well, I'm good with that. I was I was jumping the gun there. Yeah, I went and so so many issues there commuted federally and now for a reach around let's go at him from the state side of things on the same facts. Just something that I'm glad that we do not have in terms of problems.

[00:11:27]>> Well, yeah, I'm not uh I think there should be exceptions to the double jeopardy rule. I'm fine with that.

[00:11:32]>> Yeah.

[00:11:33]>> Yeah. Hey, another episode we talked about was police training and tools and accuchants. You know, the taser for instance, we've talked about that.

[00:11:44]>> And you know, police, as we've been saying, put their lives on the line every day.

[00:11:52]Doesn't matter if it's a traffic stop, a welfare check. And when they don't have the proper tools, that is alarming and concerning.

[00:12:00]>> Yes. And so on the 23rd of this month, so not very long ago, there was a report that the Queensland Police Service is now going to test all Glock handguns because >> why were they not doing that before though? That's my question.

[00:12:15]>> Yeah, there was a fault identified in routine testing and the fault is is that it could these guns and keep in mind there's 15,000 police so 15,000 Glocks out there. I remember mine and I'll get to a story about mine, but um where the fault was inadvertently firing multiple shots.

[00:12:39]>> Oh wow.

[00:12:40]>> Yeah. Yeah. And so you've got officers that have to be expected to draw their firearm in certain circumstances with a significant fault. All right. As I said, there's 15,000. Go ahead. So, I mean, to me, that is obviously a a better fault than not firing at all because if a if a police officer has gotten to a point where they feel it is required that they shoot their firearm, then it must be a pretty dire situation. So, you don't want there to not be a bullet coming out. So, is the problem with multiple shots like other people are at risk or like what? Well, yeah, it would be other people at risk and if you pull the trigger, one shot should come out, right? And so, >> yes. Oh, yes, I see that. But if you Is it that the shots would not be going into just the the intended target?

[00:13:39]>> Yeah, I think that's probably a concern.

[00:13:41]>> Yeah.

[00:13:41]>> Um >> I've never shot a gun, so I don't know.

[00:13:44]>> We're going to have to go. It's >> No, I don't know. Um but yeah, so firearms had been identified more than one with the issue. And so as I said, there's 15,000 Glock handguns. They've been in service since 1999.

[00:13:59]And so there's an unknown risk in terms of the weapon >> and discharging rounds whether multiple or not.

[00:14:08]>> Yeah. And so the union president Shane Prior in this article um is calling for a full replacement. And it's interesting because >> the guns that they use were purchased or procured between 1999 and 2003. And we're now in what year? 2020. Yeah.

[00:14:29]Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:30]>> And so the sentiment is is that they should have been replaced years ago.

[00:14:36]>> Well, yeah. I mean surely are there advances in weapons?

[00:14:40]>> Absolutely.

[00:14:41]>> Yes.

[00:14:42]>> And wear and tear. I I'll tell you mine.

[00:14:44]My my my Glock, you know, I was a I was on the road for a year and a bit to Logan Beanley Eagle. Those are my people. And then I went into legal division. But as a sworn police officer, I still had a Glock. And my Glock was rusty. It literally had rust on it.

[00:15:01]>> Oh wow. And so I would send it in to the armory every year to be cleaned and hopefully replaced and it would come back cleaned and shiny but still rusty.

[00:15:13]>> Did you ever shoot it?

[00:15:15]>> No.

[00:15:15]>> No.

[00:15:15]>> No. Thankfully.

[00:15:17]>> But that's my point. I mean, we're sending police in and the equipment is not working or there has been issues identified and a firearm from 1999 and we're in what, 2026? It's time to replace.

[00:15:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. And you've got the New South Wales saying that they've replaced it in 2023.

[00:15:37]Uh Tasmania, they restock their Glocks in the past three years. Now, South Australia, Victoria, they don't use Glock, neither.

[00:15:47]Um and and the Australian Federal Police do not use the same Glock model. And so I just see this as extremely problematic. Somebody's dropping the ball. Another story I'll tell you is that when you're issued a Glock, you use it and hopefully you use it once a year and that's for training, >> right?

[00:16:10]>> Okay. I was not able to go and take my Glock to the to the range to to target shoot to practice to become familiar with it. And that I see would have alleviated some of these concerns if police were allowed to actually use the weapon that they have been issued at a target or a facility.

[00:16:31]>> Why can't they do that?

[00:16:33]>> Well, it's it's it's just protocol >> because it's a service weapon.

[00:16:36]>> It's a service weapon.

[00:16:38]>> And so a lot's writing on these police officers. You draw your firearm even if you don't shoot it and it's problematic.

[00:16:45]you are embedded in paperwork. Even at some of the shootings that we've talked about, ethical standards command is on you and you will be investigated for using your weapon. And yet, we've got weapons that are faulty. In in this case, so far, three firearms are faulty.

[00:17:05]And I just see this as entirely unnecessary. Well, that could be the difference between >> oh >> living and not as the police officer.

[00:17:16]>> Yeah. And so thankfully the police minister Dan Pertie's on it and I'm hoping that he gets to the bottom of it.

[00:17:23]>> Wow.

[00:17:24]>> Yeah.

[00:17:24]>> We need them to be >> have every tool available in working order.

[00:17:30]>> Yes. Exactly.

[00:17:31]>> Hey, we'll move on to a Canadian story now. We talked about artificial intelligence. I I think you ran that episode >> and a new development in Canada and I'm I'm interested to see if it's being utilized here in Queensland that hasn't been reported on because it's the same technology.

[00:17:51]>> Right.

[00:17:51]>> All right. So RCMP in Alberta and British Columbia, they have the Axon bodywn camera, the same camera that I use, same camera the police here use.

[00:18:03]And what has been identified now is that they've been utilizing Axon technology that not only captures audio and video, but then writes draft reports, statements on what is >> recorded.

[00:18:24]>> Recorded. And that >> for who? Who who are they writing the reports for?

[00:18:28]>> For the officers.

[00:18:29]>> So they don't have to write the report.

[00:18:31]>> That's right.

[00:18:33]And so, >> yeah. And so the RCMP has come out saying, you know, we've got to move with the times.

[00:18:42]There's a a U departmental plan in 2026 that they say that they're going to establish policies pertaining to the use of artificial intelligence to assist in criminal investigations, working with internal and other domestic stakeholders. So, look, I mean, two things out of that. Yes, we do have to move with the times. AI is here to stay.

[00:19:07]How we use it, though, is up to us.

[00:19:09]>> Um, but part of me thinks, what's the concern?

[00:19:15]>> All right, I'm going to get to that.

[00:19:16]Yeah. Yeah. So, all right. So, you've got civil libertarians talking about civil rights, privacy, and all of that jazz, right? The increase in surveillance. Set that aside. We'll let the civil libertarians talk about, right?

[00:19:29]But my problem and takes into another consideration and that's proving beyond reasonable doubt and we all know that artificial intelligence hallucinates.

[00:19:42]>> Okay.

[00:19:43]>> Still.

[00:19:44]>> Oh yeah.

[00:19:44]>> Yeah.

[00:19:45]>> Yeah.

[00:19:45]>> Okay. So much so that in utilizing this technology in Utah, uh, one of the reports and statements that was drafted referred to the police officer having magically shapeshifted into a frog. And you might be thinking, well, how the hell? Come on, get a grip. But what actually happened was is that police showed up to a house where the princess and the frog was playing in the background.

[00:20:14]>> Oh my goodness. So, how about that?

[00:20:16]>> So, it's it somehow wanted to incorporate that video, >> that video, that film into the report statement that was >> Well, that's problematic.

[00:20:26]>> And you might be thinking, well, certainly they wouldn't be using that in court. Well, >> the response, well, that Utah example, I don't know, to be honest with you, because >> you would want to be editing that out for sure. Uh the RCMP has said that the officers if they're relying on the statement or the report in court, they must sign off on it. All right? They they're required to sign off on the accuracy. All right?

[00:20:54]>> And this can be hit and miss because I can recall very vividly looking at a domestic violence affidavit which is signed off by an officer referring to the officer eating a bowl of dicks.

[00:21:09]for breakfast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so where I'm getting at with that is >> I'm trying to even think what they meant.

[00:21:16]>> Well, somebody went onto their computer when they weren't looking and didn't check the veracity of the affidavit before signing.

[00:21:23]>> So, it wasn't even a typo.

[00:21:24]>> No, it was not a typo.

[00:21:27]>> So, signing off uh the accuracy, I'm just not there yet.

[00:21:33]And in high stakes matters and a lot of matters that police go on, they are high stakes. And so I I see this as dangerous to the administration of justice in the sense of you'll be involved in very serious matters and the focus is then shifting from the offense, those involved in the offense to the police and the police activity.

[00:22:05]>> Yeah. I mean, look, people are time poor and I guess one of the things that I've heard about AI is that it it can train itself. So if they can come up with ways to ensure as far as possible things like background films and that sort of thing and then if you do have to have the officer actually verifying so they are where the buck stops if they verify it.

[00:22:36]I I think there is some utility to that AI summary being able to be used.

[00:22:44]>> Yeah. I don't know. I think it puts a lot of pressure back on police in the sense of, you know, you're getting paid by the hour. Just do the work yourself.

[00:22:53]>> I know it's a little bit like um if someone was going to transcribe an interview you had and you have faith that they're going to transcribe it properly, but you'd still want to check that they did it. You know, it's similar to that.

[00:23:06]>> Yeah. No. So, I I thought it was interesting because I'd never seen anything quite like it. And my immediate reaction was is I'm going to hammer on cross-examination something fierce >> because, you know, it it just it it just would shift the focus from the offense onto the police. And that's an attention that I'm not entirely sure they need at the moment. I do think anyone who just blindly relies on what AI produces >> is ridiculous because there are millions of examples of them getting it wrong.

[00:23:42]AI.

[00:23:42]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:23:43]>> So, you know, that's on them really.

[00:23:45]>> Yeah. No, it is. But in terms of the victims and you know, why is it that we're focusing on a police officer >> not doing their job, they're paid by the hour as opposed to this could have been avoided, you know.

[00:23:59]>> Yes. So, we'll see. And I'm not sure if it is being done here in Queensland, but Axon's draft one tool is being utilized in the Canadian RCMP, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, >> which allows for shape-shifting. So, that is exciting.

[00:24:16]>> Yeah. So, we'll see. Prince and the Toad or whatever that was.

[00:24:20]>> Princess and the Frog Disney classic movie.

[00:24:25]>> So, interesting. And we'll see. We'll see how that transpires. I haven't heard of it over here, but it is the same technology that is being used over here.

[00:24:33]So whether or not there is a store under wraps maybe, you never know.

[00:24:38]>> Interesting.

[00:24:40]>> Look, I want to talk a little bit today on something that I've noticed growing and that is airlines and unruly passengers. You know, just this morning I woke up and saw a tweet on Twitter, obviously on a Delta passenger refusing to end a phone call. And so the entire flight deplaned, they were removed and arrested. And so >> why did the whole flight have to get deplaned?

[00:25:08]>> Because they were refusing to leave and it was just for the safety of the other passengers.

[00:25:14]>> Oh, how irritating would that have been?

[00:25:16]Well, not only that though, but think about the airports, you know, um, and you go to the airports and it's heavily secure, right? We go through a number of security checks. There's police officers there in some airports. There's automatic weapons. So, it is a very secure facility.

[00:25:37]But what happens when you're in 35,000 ft? there is a sense of vulnerability there that presents itself.

[00:25:47]>> But isn't that what all of those security checks are meant to minimize?

[00:25:51]>> Well, I guess if you're going in with a, you know, a knife or a weapon or something like that, but a number of these cases that we're going to look at today involve unruly passengers, uh, involve uh, offenses being committed at 35,000 ft. alcohol.

[00:26:10]>> Alcohol.

[00:26:12]>> But, uh, one of the most recent ones, and the reason why I I say this is because I'm noticing an increase.

[00:26:19]>> Okay.

[00:26:21]>> And who does it fall on when you're at 35,000 ft to sort it?

[00:26:26]>> The the attendants.

[00:26:28]>> The flight attendants. Yes. That are flight attendants, not police officers.

[00:26:32]They're flight attendants >> doing a very tough job.

[00:26:36]And so, you know, for an example, I I was on a flight once, and I won't not going to give too too many details, but it was from Brisbane to Beijing, and somebody on that flight uh was on some medication and had a drink or whatever, an alcoholic beverage, and there was a problem with mixing the combination. Okay. The cocktail. Mhm.

[00:27:01]>> And for about an hour and a half straight, that passenger just really wanted to go outside for a cigarette.

[00:27:09]>> Oh lord.

[00:27:10]>> Okay. And so if you think about it, there's no police on board. There's no real outside of the passengers and hopefully the flight attendants. And I give flight attendants after preparing for this, we need to give them a shout out for all that they do. But yeah, it was a case where we had to physically hold him down and it was not easy at times, but at the same token, it was the only thing that was available to us. We were unknown airspace, >> you know. And >> is it true that um drinking alcohol at altitude impacts you more?

[00:27:51]>> Yes, it is. Yeah. And I've got some some notes on that as well, >> but so yeah. So we've got, you know, airports being secure. We think planes are controlled, but once airborne, things change.

[00:28:05]>> Yeah. Okay.

[00:28:06]>> And the increased vulnerability of passengers, but also crew, >> you know, you've got a lot of variables there that we'll get to. Um, and so I just want to take a look at some of the incidents. So, I mentioned a couple of them or one of them that I read this morning, but and these are all April 24th, 20126.

[00:28:32]So, they're very recent.

[00:28:33]>> Okay.

[00:28:34]>> All right. And so, on this >> instance, the Australian Federal Police were involved in a New South Wales man charged with assaulting airline crew on a flight to Perth. So, again, a serious type offense, assault. and he's from is it Queen Quinbian >> Quinbian >> Quinnbian >> um he's expected to appear in Perth uh charged over disorderly and aggressive behavior that led to a mid-flight restraint um when traveling from Canra to Perth. So 45year-old man disorderly shouting, swearing, ignoring safety instructions from the airline crew. Uh he kicked and pushed the seat in front of him occupied by a female passenger and then became aggressive towards her after after she asked him to stop.

[00:29:21]>> How dare she?

[00:29:22]>> Exactly. And so uh cabin crew restrained the man and he allegedly kicked at the cabin manager during attempts to restrain him and attempted to bite the arm of another passenger >> assisting barrel.

[00:29:38]>> Yeah.

[00:29:39]>> So you know there's that. Then we have >> and I'm just thinking because one of my best friends is a flight attendant. He has been for years.

[00:29:47]>> Give him a big thanks for me.

[00:29:50]>> But he would be, you know, he could hold his own for the most part. But you think of our, you know, majority of flight attendants are young women, >> small, like thin, you know what I mean?

[00:30:03]>> They have to fit the demographic, don't they?

[00:30:05]>> Yeah.

[00:30:06]>> So yeah, that is I hadn't really thought of it in that way. And me either, you know, on on this one here again, a Western Australian man faces Perth magistrates court accused of disorderly behavior and failing to comply with airline staff aboard a domestic flight.

[00:30:22]Um, intoxicated passenger, verbally abused a cabin crew member, failed to comply, and the flight was forced to turn around to return to Perth because of the behavior, and they had to drop fuel in order to land safely. And so 33 year old male in that instance.

[00:30:41]>> Yeah. That I mean it it I don't know why they're doing it, but it comes with some degree of entitlement, doesn't it? That they can just demand what they want or act how they want.

[00:30:52]>> Yeah. And I and I don't understand it.

[00:30:55]And I think that your friend that's a flight attendant and the flight attendants themselves are at a risk every time they step on a plane. And I'm going to get to uh the cabin crew ratio because I I feel like that's something that your friend would actually have something to say about. So we're going to get to that.

[00:31:13]>> Okay.

[00:31:14]>> A Thailand bound Jet Star flight was this was on the 14th of April was diverted from Melbourne where a woman was arrested for erratic behavior on board. Okay. Abusive um increasingly erratic matter. verbally abusing passengers and cabin crew. It was diverted and she had to be removed.

[00:31:38]>> Must have been pretty bad.

[00:31:40]>> Yep. And um >> I'm not I'm not a keen flyer anyway.

[00:31:47]>> Oh, I fly all the time.

[00:31:49]>> Well, I know you do and I do not, >> but this just makes me more >> Yeah. And again, um, this month on the 14th, a man faces 12 years in prison after being arrested for a horrific sexual assault on a Perthbound flight.

[00:32:07]>> Oh my goodness.

[00:32:08]>> This is a 52-year-old Indian national and is facing 12 years in prison after being arrested on carrying out a horrific sexual act on a Scoot Airways flight from Singapore to Perth.

[00:32:22]He was arrested immediately and it was the case that um the victim was sitting next to the man during the flight and allegedly the man started to sexually molest her without consent.

[00:32:38]>> My god, that is horrifying.

[00:32:40]>> And so it's was widely recognized in this report that every passenger has a right to feel safe when traveling.

[00:32:49]>> Absolutely. in such a confined aircraft.

[00:32:54]Um, out of the United States, a lot of the stories I've tried to get the majority from here in Australia, but I mean, it's so wild in the United States.

[00:33:03]There's two women were drinking, being disruptive during the in flight, getting into verbal altercation. They arrived in Las Vegas. They're now they're now facing years and years in prison. They don't stuff around in the United States.

[00:33:15]>> Oh my goodness. We'll go to Vancouver, Canada now, and 10 people were arrested at the airport because of safety concerns, non-compliant with flight crew instructions. Police were called and they're all facing time in prison and it is they are appearing in court at a later date.

[00:33:37]>> Wow. Um, on the 9th of April 2026, a drunk plane passenger who became so abusive, the pilot was forced to abort a landing has been jailed for 10 months.

[00:33:50]Now, this was in the United Kingdom. So, 61-year-old Steven Bloffield was so intoxicated on a Ryan airflight from Krakow to Bristol. Don't ask me where those are.

[00:34:02]in Poland.

[00:34:04]>> You know, it probably is because he was confronting Polish people.

[00:34:08]>> There you go.

[00:34:09]>> But he started drinking at the airport to calm his nerds, >> which I think a lot of people do.

[00:34:14]>> Yeah. I don't know. I don't like flying. I don't have a problem with it. But there was vile verbal aggression. Okay. The prosecuting barristister told the court that um it was effectively the worst he had to endure in terms of one of the witness statements.

[00:34:35]>> Wow.

[00:34:35]>> Okay. He abused Polish staff on board the flight. Drunk, aggressive, confrontational, missed striking a neighboring passenger while being handcuffed. So alarming, so potentially dangerous. And he did plead guilty. And >> that's probably quite a lot of iPhone footage.

[00:34:54]>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And so part of the mitigation that the barristister raised is that he had lost his medication for back pain and he had depression and anxiety.

[00:35:04]>> Yeah.

[00:35:04]>> Um I did have a question there. So he got handcuffed.

[00:35:08]>> Yes.

[00:35:08]>> Was that on the flight? Like do they have handcuffs on the flights?

[00:35:11]>> They've got restraints. I don't know. I haven't seen one and I don't intend to unless I'm putting them on somebody and I will but if get if I get asked but um yeah they've got restraint devices mechanisms packages something like that.

[00:35:26]Yeah, >> I'll have to ask Mari.

[00:35:27]>> Yes, do that.

[00:35:28]>> Um again a New Zealander traveler sentenced over a mid-flight assault of crew members. This was uh an assault of two airline crew members on an international flight. The man was 23, sentenced to six months imprisonment in the County Court of Victoria to be released on a two-year good behavior bond. He was also ordered to pay the airline $10,824 intoxication disrupted from Perth to Auckland, refused to comply with crew member instructions. Okay.

[00:36:02]>> Gosh. Um uh a fella in the United States um is looking at 20 years in prison because she kicked and slapped flight attendants. Okay. So 15 hour international flight on Etahad Airways from Abu Dhabi to Washington Dulles and started to raise her voice at the flight attendant. Um the flight attendants did their damn just to calm her down but she continued. Um, she kicked a flight attendant in the hip area and the left buttocks and she was kicking him with a black boot that had a heel on it.

[00:36:44]>> Uh, standing up on a chair screaming obscenities. The flight manager again tried to calm them down. That didn't happen. Pushed the flight manager's shoulder to three to four times and slapped her. and so landed on the ground and is looking at 20 years imprisonment.

[00:37:03]>> That's pretty extreme. But you know what? These are the ones that are being reported, right? Imagine the less notorious ones.

[00:37:12]>> Absolutely.

[00:37:13]>> Would be no less confronting.

[00:37:16]>> So, um, this one was a Sydneybound Queenstown flight and a 50-year-old female boarded. She ignored safety, swore at cabin crew, danced down the aisle while the pilot was taxing off for takeoff, non-compliant.

[00:37:34]>> What is wrong with people?

[00:37:36]>> I know, right? Um, you know, you've got >> I am just thinking, have you seen that Friends episode where um Phoebe told Rachel that there was something wrong with the fangi?

[00:37:52]>> Oh no. Rachel repeated and the whole flight went into panic and everyone stormed off the plane. Really? Yeah.

[00:37:57]Anyway, that was one of my favorites.

[00:38:00]>> Yeah. Um there was that scene in Bridesmaids though where she kept trying to go up to first class or whatever.

[00:38:06]>> I've already thought of that. And so a crew a crew member was injured in Darwin after two drunken passengers caused chaos.

[00:38:18]>> Gosh. And so, you know, there's >> you've got hundreds of them there.

[00:38:23]>> Yeah, there's lots and they're all recent. Like, they're all disturbing.

[00:38:28]>> It is disturbing. So, I see it as an increase.

[00:38:31]>> And so, I had a look at, you know, some of the legislation, right? I had to look at, all right, what do we have to protect?

[00:38:38]>> Is it federal?

[00:38:39]>> It is federal.

[00:38:40]>> Yeah.

[00:38:41]>> Yeah. And so you've got the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations, but you also have the Crimes Aviation Act. Oh, >> okay.

[00:38:50]>> And so crew members, so your friend that is a flight attendant, I think that's how I think that's politically correct to call them flight attendants.

[00:38:59]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:00]>> Yeah. I would say crew member or whatever. We'll say >> he said crew manager.

[00:39:03]>> Yeah. Crew manager. Crew member. They have the right without warrant to an arrest a person.

[00:39:09]>> Really?

[00:39:10]>> Yeah. So tell him that. He probably knows.

[00:39:11]>> I'm sure he would.

[00:39:12]>> But the right to arrest a person without warrant and then when they arrive at a destination, they hand them over to >> the authorities.

[00:39:20]>> Authorities. But there's a number of offenses and not only, you know, for the sexual assault matters, you've got criminal code type offenses, but there's a number of offenses under these aviation regulations.

[00:39:31]>> Okay?

[00:39:32]>> So, offensive or disorderly behavior on an aircraft. Bam. 50 penalty units. Now, I would like to see a period of incarceration included in here other than just a fine. All right? So, 50 penalty units for offensive disorderly behavior. If you want to give somebody a fine, that's great. But some of those seats on some of these planes cost $20,000.

[00:39:58]>> Yes.

[00:39:58]>> You know, so one penalty unit is $330.

[00:40:02]50 penalty units, the maximum is 16,500.

[00:40:05]>> Did you just say a penalty? Is that a federal penalty?

[00:40:07]>> That's a federal penalty unit. Yeah.

[00:40:09]>> It's a lot more than the penalty unit value I was familiar with.

[00:40:12]>> Oh, in the States. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's increasing though. It'll it'll get there at some point.

[00:40:16]>> Oh my goodness.

[00:40:17]>> But 50 penalty units. And you might think that that's a big fine, but offensive disorderly behavior outside of this legislation can warrant imprisonment. And I think that that needs to be looked at for these crew members.

[00:40:31]>> I know. having that as a maximum. I mean, I just come back to the fact we never impose maximum.

[00:40:36]>> No, exactly.

[00:40:38]>> And so, compliance with safety directions. Put your seatelt on. If you don't put your seatelt on, 50 penalty units. I'm obviously, you know, embellishing a bit there, but compliance with safety instructions, compliance with instructions by cabin crew. If you're not, don't dance down the aisle.

[00:40:55]I was on a recent flight from uh Melbourne to no Sydney to the Gold Coast last weekend and somebody was up after, you know, we we had landed. They just got up and started working through the bins and stuff like that to get their luggage and you could see that the cabin crew was not impressed. And it's just common sense.

[00:41:16]>> Yeah. And so you've got more significant offenses, I guess, when you look at prejudicing what they call the safe operation of the aircraft. And you could probably link some of this conduct in there where you can under the Civil Aviation Act receive imprisonment 20 years.

[00:41:35]>> Okay. So I guess there is a way to incorporate the offensive, disruptive, disorderly conduct if it extends that far.

[00:41:46]>> You know, prejudicing the safe officer with the intent assaulting crew.

[00:41:51]>> This would be a good one for your friend. Imprisonment for 10 years. So that's assaulting, threatening with violence, or intimidating.

[00:41:58]>> Okay.

[00:41:58]>> Intimidating.

[00:41:59]>> Okay.

[00:41:59]>> Yeah.

[00:42:00]>> Well, that's good.

[00:42:01]>> Yes. And so there are a few offenses.

[00:42:07]Now part of the reason that I thought about this was you know how you describe the flight attendants. I mean they are nicel lookinging and you know what I mean and they >> well I was more about the fact that it is I I think still probably predominantly a female. I mean we have um you know a lot of male flight attendants as well but you do see a lot more female flight attendants.

[00:42:34]>> Yeah >> that was as far as I was taking that observation >> J I didn't take it any other way.

[00:42:40]>> Having said that though the number of flight attendants on the flight is what concerns me.

[00:42:44]>> Oh okay.

[00:42:45]>> Okay. This is what concerns me. So what I did do to talk about vulnerability is print off a seat map.

[00:42:52]>> I see that.

[00:42:52]>> Okay. We got a Quantis A380 and you've got 485 seats on this flight.

[00:42:59]So, we're not >> That's two stories.

[00:43:01]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:02]>> Wow.

[00:43:02]>> Yeah. There's a lounge up there on that one, too.

[00:43:04]>> Huh.

[00:43:05]>> But, um, so that's one aircraft. And we don't discriminate here. So, I've looked at Virgin Australia at a 737.

[00:43:13]They've got between 176 and 182 passengers on their planes. Okay.

[00:43:19]>> How many is on the Airbus? Uh, that one was 485.

[00:43:23]>> Wow. Yeah, that's a lot.

[00:43:25]>> Big aircraft. And then we'll go to Rex.

[00:43:26]>> Do they still exist?

[00:43:28]>> Oh, well, I went on the website and I found >> Oh, maybe they're regional only. Yes.

[00:43:33]>> Uh, where they've got 36 passengers.

[00:43:35]Yes. Okay. So, we incorporate all the airlines that I could think of time.

[00:43:40]>> The difficulty that I have though is we talk about the vulnerability of these planes. So in some circumstances, you've got one narrow aisle that separates passengers, right? You've got fixed seating. You've got limited ability to isolate these incidents on board this aircraft. Okay? I mean, and when there is an incidence, we're relying on the flight attendants to sort it out. And if you get somebody like me, I'll lend a hand. I have no problem.

[00:44:13]But there's no immediate response from AFP. In certain jurisdictions, you're over international waters. Um, and so these decisions, you've got the density of too many people in too little space when these incidents erupt. You've got the immobility, so you can't just simply take somebody outside.

[00:44:36]delay factor, social friction, and it's just a number of vulnerabilities. And you encapsulate those vulnerabilities with something such as alcohol. And I'm not saying that alcohol is bad, but you know, you do go to some of these lounges that have free pouring stations set up where it is a recipe for a disaster on a six-hour flight. Well, and I and I do think not you obviously, but people do get nervous about flying. And so that's sort of a natural way to, you know, tamp down the nerves.

[00:45:13]So people do have pre-flight drinks or drinks on the flight to to dull the nerves.

[00:45:20]>> Yep. And I think about that now because if you are one of those people that have anxiety about flying and you're seated in one of these aircrafts, these vessels where somebody has gone off the wall, >> that isn't going to help.

[00:45:36]>> No.

[00:45:36]>> And so I look at the flight attendants and I say, "All right, your job there is multiaceted." You know, you might receive training. I think I saw a report where they receive, you know, five weeks for short hall flight airlines and eight plus weeks for international. But you're dealing with emergencies. You're dealing with those signed, you know, evacuations and such, >> medical issues, >> medical issues, >> not in their job description to be police officers on the plane.

[00:46:10]>> Yes. And so I thought about this this weekend when I was on this flight because I was on a 737 and I believe there was three or four crew members and in this vessel in the air and if something were to go wrong I would help obviously. Um, but I think of the flight attendants that are of the smaller stature and and you know, don't get me wrong, I served with some police officers that were small and feisty, but they shouldn't have to be.

[00:46:44]>> Well, I mean, this isn't what they signed up for.

[00:46:46]>> It isn't.

[00:46:46]>> And often they're young.

[00:46:48]>> Yep. Yep. Yep. Unless you're on Air Canada. Um, >> okay. I won't go any further with that.

[00:46:54]>> No. And I won't either, but there's a crew cabin ratio. Okay.

[00:47:00]And this is my problem. If we're relying on flight attendants who are not police officers to deal with unruly passengers, why is it that there's only one flight attendant per 50 cabin person people on that aircraft?

[00:47:18]>> Really?

[00:47:19]>> Yeah. I found this out. This is the Civil Aviation Safety Authority. And at one point it was one cabin crew member per 36 passengers. Now from what I've gathered it's one cabin crew per 50 people. And I have a problem with that number. It's >> so my question is no. I wonder if that is like cabin crew but then you have your cabin manager as well. You know like is that total or >> Well that's something you'd have to ask your friend. All I've got here is that the proposed implement was 1 to 50 cabin, crew, passenger, seat ratio for aircrafts.

[00:48:00]>> That's pretty.

[00:48:02]>> And so I understand that airlines are in the business of making money. But with the incidents on the rise and the risk to these flight attendants who are just trying to get through the flight >> Mhm.

[00:48:18]>> and the passengers around that are already anxious in certain circumstances that something else has to be done.

[00:48:25]Especially if you think about those long haul flights. Like it's one thing to fly an hour, you know, from Brisbane to Rocky, but if you're doing 15, 20 hour flight.

[00:48:37]>> Yep.

[00:48:39]>> Yep.

[00:48:39]>> Yeah.

[00:48:39]>> I mean, and it's all reactionary, right?

[00:48:42]It's all after something has transpired.

[00:48:45]And >> yes, >> I I just feel uh a new level of uneasiness on some of these flights because I do, you know, I do go to the Quantis lounge and I do >> see people in there and and I do get on some flights where there are some unruly passengers and I feel like not only do >> the legislation need to reflect the seriousness, but the airlines need to take care of their flight attendants who are exposed to these people on a daily basis. Yes, that is such a good point.

[00:49:17]>> Yeah.

[00:49:17]>> So, I just wanted to raise that.

[00:49:20]>> Very good. Yeah. Well, now I don't want to fly anywhere.

[00:49:22]>> I can get you a lounge pass.

[00:49:25]>> Um, but anyway.

[00:49:26]>> Yeah.

[00:49:27]>> Interesting.

[00:49:27]>> Yeah. So, there you go.

[00:49:29]>> Well, thank you, Jay.

[00:49:30]>> Thank you.

[00:49:35]>> Thank you for listening to the episode.

[00:49:36]If you enjoyed it, please rate and review the podcast. If you're interested in clips, check out @justice matters pod on Tik Tok and Instagram.