Jess Phillips: Her first thoughts on Starmer since resigning

Added: 2026-05-22

[00:00:00]What I think that he lacks and his operation lacks is the drive to get anything done with the gusto that is needed. I >> I mean Beth, pick your metaphor. The dam has burst, the horses bolted, the genies out the bottle. I mean something.

[00:00:18]>> The prime minister's team have done an amazing job of making this somehow west streeting spot.

[00:00:30]Hello and welcome to Electoral Dysfunction with me, Beth Riby, Me Ruth Davidson, and me, Harriet Harmon.

[00:00:37]>> Now, it's been a mega week in politics, a mega week for memes. I have to say how much joy it's brought me seeing all the edits online of me being tethered to my broadcasting spot with a microphone, which stopped me interviewing James Murray outside Downing Street. I spilled two coffees over the pavement and I became a comedy character in the thick of it. I didn't mean to. It wasn't intentional. Um, yeah, Karen messaged the burner phone likening the mic to a cattle prod. We had a WhatsApp from Joseph saying I was serving high camp. I quite liked that one actually. Uh, and then Lotty Lotty made a Beth Riby mega mix uh of me in all political crises like being a dick at Downing Street. So, thank you all for that. Thank you.

[00:01:29]>> Can I just say I think it's a miracle that you've still got your voice and are able to speak because I mean I've I've decided so much news. There's like a suret of news. There's I've decided that there has been so much news that it's time for me to set a timetable for my succession. Uh cuz I can't take anymore.

[00:01:45]Honestly, >> are we going to have to put your name forward to the children of hundreds?

[00:01:49]>> Put my name forward.

[00:01:51]>> Uh I've got loyalist wanted me to stay on, but I don't know if I can command uh any more energy in myself to carry on to be honest.

[00:02:02]Well, it's your it's your duty to the sisterhood and the political journalist world that you absolutely do. I'm afraid, Beth. No way.

[00:02:10]>> But I say talking about the sisterhood and indeed all of our dysfunctioners that have been listening to us over the years got a bit of a throwback because you've got an exclusive interview with Jess Phillips that we're going to listen to later in the show. But so much news has happened, we've got to actually tell you a bit about what's been going on the last couple of days. Um, and by the time you listen to this, you know, it might have moved on again, but Beth, come on.

[00:02:31]Lead us through. We're recording on Thursday evening. Lead us through what on earth has been going on because it has been a frenzy of activity.

[00:02:41]>> I can't really put into words how intense it has been over the past 48 hours. We had uh that cabinet meeting that we talked about on the extra podcast episode. We had the resignation of Jess Phillips and some other ministers. Uh we then had the hiatus of the king's speech. Uh but even as the king's speech uh was being read out by the king in the house of lords and this is setting out the government's uh agenda for the next session of parliament. I was getting wind as were other journalists that Wes Street was preparing to resign. He'd been into number 10 on Wednesday morning who's in there for all of 16 uh minutes. uh they were describing it on one hand uh as the showdown or talks. Uh the PM's lot was saying he's just having an coffee and then I was like, well, he's definitely had either a single espresso on the basis of that timing of that meeting or maybe he had a very cold iced latte cuz I think it was pretty uh frosty. Then we started reporting in the middle of the king's speech that he was going to resign last night. It was just fever pitch uh level of gossiping in Westminster about wasw was going to resign, did he have the numbers?

[00:03:57]Government figures uh and supporters of Star saying he didn't. Where's Allies saying he did? Uh then someone messaged me and said, "Make sure you're awake at 6:00 a.m." I was like, "Why would I want to be awake at 6:00 a.m.?" Well, because there was a big ginger bombshell >> big Angela Raina bombshell uh in which she did an interview with ITV. I will eventually get over that. I will get over that at some point. Uh she did an interview with ITV in the Guardian uh saying that she had been cleared of wrongdoing uh with her HMRC uh tax investigation. So she sort of got that out in the morning news paving the way potentially I suppose to run if uh duty called. Uh we then all sat around waiting for wares. I at one point went to the commons and um there's a there's a corridor behind the speaker's chair.

[00:04:49]Harriet you will know it very well and it's it's the speaker's corridor and it's where all the ministers the cabinet uh have offices and the prime minister has his office and word reached me that Kier Stan was in his office. So, I sort of wandered up the corridor, get sent back again, wandered up again. Uh, you're not really you you're allowed to walk up it, but you can't lurk. Uh, so I I went there for a bit to hang around, see if I could find any cabinet. Then I got wind that something might be coming at 1:00. Legged it back to the office and hey presto, where's streeting resigned. So, we did that on television.

[00:05:23]Uh, very long uh letter saying uh that there was no vision.

[00:05:28]>> I mean, there was a great line in Wes's letter. It says where there should be vision there is a vacuum. It was just like oh it was devastating and then he kind of went through all of his sort of gripes with the PM particularly every time something bad happens somebody else has to fall on their sword basically saying you don't take responsibility.

[00:05:44]>> So we so we did that and then uh and then I interviewed Jess Phillips exclusively for the electoral dysfunction pod. That was her first interview uh since she resigned uh on Tuesday and we had a very interesting discussion about uh Kier Starmmer. She was quite upset in the interview actually. She looked troubled. Um she just talked about how he didn't listen, the frustration she felt in trying to drive through change. She said it was only when there were crisis moments that she could really further the agenda of violence against women and girls. She said, "I personally like him. he's a good man, but like it's not working. We have to change it. Uh she talked a bit about Wes Street in uh she talked a bit about Andy Burnham, Angela Raina, uh she talked about as well. And then um I finished that interview and then I got wind that I also needed to get back on telly for 5:00 p.m. because something else might be happening. And then at 5:00 pm, Josh Simons, uh, the MP for Makerfield, which is a place, uh, near Wigan in the north northwest.

[00:06:52]I'm not very good at geography. My mother's actually from Wigan, so everyone forgive me on that. Just very tired. Um, he announced that he was going to give up his seat in order to let Andy Burnham uh run for parliament.

[00:07:07]It is just absolutely batshit nuts to be honest.

[00:07:12]>> It is all going off.

[00:07:13]>> Yeah, >> Harriet, >> you're one of the longest serving Labor people ever. What on earth is going on?

[00:07:21]>> Well, it's just incredibly worrying, you know, having fought for 14 years to get into government. getting into government in July less than two years ago with a big majority and here we are in a situation where I think all Labor people can agree on what the problem is but there just doesn't seem to be any agreement on the solution and some people think don't risk the turmoil of a Labor leadership the people have actually elected Kier Dharma even though so many of them don't like him now but that is our system at least they know how he got to be prime minister and they had a part in being able to choose him.

[00:07:58]Then there was some people but it seems like quite a few ultimately in the parliamentary Labour party who wanted streeting to replace Kiz Dharma and clearly where streeting himself was one of those people who wanted himself to replace Kiz Dharma.

[00:08:14]>> You're such a master of the understatement Harriet. I mean he's been preing himself for this for months practically years. that but that didn't m materialize and clearly he couldn't get enough support in the PLP to mount a challenge and then there was people from the left of the party who were like no no no we can't have a leadership election now because we are missing the prince across the water which is Andy Burnham we can't settle the leadership question in an election without Andy Bernham's in it fast forward to where we are today whereby Jos Simons who's actually an ally of K Dharma and part of the labor together Morgan Mcweeny side of things says he's going to stand down in his constituency of Makerfield for Andy Bernham and the thing about that um Beth is that >> Andy Bernham you remember was turned down to be Labour's candidate in Gorton and Denton >> and the result was the Greens won >> but actually there was a hope in Labour that we could actually win that and therefore it was oh this is terrible.

[00:09:19]The the the Greens won. But with Makerfield, we've since had the g the council elections and in Makerfield, every single Labor counselor lost out to reform. So reform now would think this is a reform seat. But the Labour people in Mfield tell me that actually Andy Burnham would win and therefore the NEC's choice is much more difficult now because if they block Andy Burnham, then it might be handing the seat to reform.

[00:09:48]But if they let Andy Burnham come in, he is clearly coming in to be a challenger to Kier Starmer. And he said that in his tweet. What he said was, >> "This is why I now seek people's support to return to Parliament to bring the change we have brought to Greater Manchester to the whole of the UK and make politics work properly for people.

[00:10:08]So he's not saying I want to come down and be a great MP and be part of the team." He's saying I want to come down to be prime minister. So it's a real standout. Can I can I ask you two things following on from that Harry and that was very comprehensive. The two things that strike me and I asked Pat McFaden uh in the studio just now who's the work and pensions secretary and is trying to shore up Stara. Number one, isn't it too far gone for Kier Starmmer now that as much as he wants to carry on as prime minister and he doesn't want to have a challenge? He's got Wes Street in resigned and waiting. Andy Burnham is demanding to come back and he's found a route to at least try to come back. If Andy Bernham wins that bi-election, he surely is coming back uh to take on Kier Starmmer. I just think that the events are piling up uh that mean that Kier Starmer is not going to be able to stop this. He's not going to be able to hold the line. What do you think? Cuz that's kind of how I feel. But I'd like to hear what you think and whether you think I'm right or not.

[00:11:12]I genuinely don't think it's too far gone for Karma if he does what he says he's going to do, which is really turbocharge change and really gear up his act because that is what most Labour MPs want him to do. They want him, they've always wanted him to succeed, but they're just losing faith that he will. But that's ultimately their preferred option. And as far as people in this country is concerned, they want the changes that he offered. It's not that they don't like his agenda that was put forward in the manifesto of 2024.

[00:11:47]It's just they think he hasn't delivered on it. If everybody was like happy that their cost of living was going up, they wouldn't be complaining about Kharma.

[00:11:55]It's because of their objective circumstances that makes them feel so cross with him. Harriet, I honestly I I don't think you just realize the point that you've made there, which is the point that lots of people who are resigning are making when you said people out there like his agenda. They just think he hasn't delivered on it.

[00:12:14]That's the whole point. They think the blockage is him. The public, you know, they may have they may have liked the Labour Party manifesto, but you were out in the doors at that election. All of your colleagues have been out in the doors for the last six, seven weeks and they've been told by voter after voter after voter that they don't like the prime minister. They don't trust the prime minister. He talks big and he acts small. The change that he promised hasn't come. You know, it's it's not that, you know, it's not that they've all left the Labor Party. They think the Labor Party isn't delivering for them.

[00:12:44]and you know your Wes Streetings, your Jess Phillips's, your Josh Simons, um, everybody is saying that has done the resignation sort of trip or has has said that it's time for the prime minister to set out his timetable. Every single one of them is saying that at best he's an essay crisis prime minister that only gets his butt into gear when he's facing a crisis. And at worst, actually, he's just not got the drive. He's not pushing things through. He's not doing it. He's not taking on vested interests. He avoids conflict. He's not, you know, bringing the country with him. He's got no vision, you know. So, so if somebody else comes in and enacts a the Labor Party manifesto that you've just said the agenda isn't the problem, it's the it's the fact it's not getting delivered. Isn't that the whole point?

[00:13:30]Isn't that what all of the people on the other side of this within the Labor Party are telling you?

[00:13:34]>> But the legitimacy attaches to the manifesto. We're elected because we have promised X, Y, and Zed. But the legitimacy is also attached to the person who is the leader. And you know if people feel too much >> not unless you're in St. Pancress and Halbornne nobody voted for Kier Starmer apart from the people in his constituency. That's what parliamentary democracy is. You're first amongst >> I I know that we have a a parliamentary system and not a presidential system.

[00:14:03]But at least people can see how Kstarma got to be prime minister and knew what the part was that they had to play in it which it is that they voted for him.

[00:14:13]>> Where I am coming back to and I've I've listened to what you said really carefully but the this is beyond I think it's beyond his control and the reason I say that is I don't think that he can block Andy Barnum trying to fight that seat. I think if that happens, there will be a mutiny in the party and it will just trigger a a crisis even bigger uh than they are in it. Just I just don't think he can block Bernham. I'm not saying Bernham will win the seat. I'm just saying I don't think he can block him. I don't think the NEC, the National Executive Committee, the governing party, I don't think they can stop Burnham trying to come back to parliament now. Do you have I don't think he's got the capital.

[00:14:55]Well, I think the stakes are higher because if the seat was then lost to reform because the NEC on Karma's instructions had blocked Bernham from standing when Bernham could clearly have won the seat, then that makes it very problematic.

[00:15:10]>> That was a roundabout way of you saying that you think that he's going to have to be allowed to run, isn't it?

[00:15:15]>> No, I said no. I said the stakes are higher because a lot of the MPs um who are expressing their you know their lack of confidence in K star they don't necessarily want Andy Bernham they want a range of different candidates that there is a consensus about the problem in the parliamentary Labor party but there is not a consensus about who is the solution is the solution for Kier Dharma to change or is the solution um Andy Bernham or some other cand candidate and that's why this has been such a fractious and difficult thing because everybody in the parliamentary Labor Party is desperately concerned about reform and def desperately concerned about the standing of the government but they do not agree what the solution is. But I do have to say that somebody said to me who listens to the pod and MP the the velocity rate in the corridors now is zero miles an hour.

[00:16:11]Literally nobody is moving. They are all just speaking to each other and that is just so bad for government you know because ministers need to be getting on with delivering. Nobody in the public wants to see everybody just having a constitutional and kind of >> the government is in absolute crisis.

[00:16:28]It's absolute paralysis. But the thing is is whatever Stalmer would want to happen, whatever those cabinet ministers saying that everyone should hold the line that the the political reality of this now is you've got Wes Stewart in that's resigned and said I'm saying what a lot of people are thinking uh you cannot command uh the confidence of this parliamentary party or the trade unions back in Labor actually as well. You will not be the prime minister into this general election. We need a debate about uh succession. Wes says that Wes Street says that and four hours later Burnham says I'm coming back and whether Starmmer wants it or not or whether you want it or not Harry and I can tell you don't really and I understand why and lots of MPs don't. I just think this is the firing gun on a leadership race. I it just and it it looks to me like it is going to happen uh one way or another whether Star wants it or not. I just it just seems that that to me is what will happen. I >> I mean Beth pick your metaphor. The dam has burst, the horse has bolted, the genie's out of the bottle. I mean, something used all of those today.

[00:17:34]Congratulations.

[00:17:36]The fus is lit.

[00:17:37]>> All the fuses. Yeah. Give me some more.

[00:17:39]I got more live broadcasting to do.

[00:17:41]>> The tectonic plates are moving.

[00:17:43]>> I'm shifted. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I tell you what. See, see, your longevity is really telling here. I could only I could only week out three of them there. You're you're going off for a whole other paragraph of them. But but it but it genuinely is. I mean there is a sense of all of these loyal cabinet ministers that are being put on the television to stand there and go yeah the prime minister is trying to get on with the job and that's what he's doing. I mean it is a little bit chemical alley like from from the Iraq war you know where you had like the spokesman of of the Iraqi government standing in front of like a burning town with with sort of British and US tanks going on behind him saying there's nothing to see here.

[00:18:17]We've not been invaded you know we're still in control like all that sort of stuff. That's exactly what it feels like now. You know it it's it completely has gone beyond the point where it can be reigned back in. There's no route for Andy Burnham to take the crown that doesn't run through Kier Starmer either enabling it or giving him permission because it's not just that the NEC which is the national executive committee has to let him stand in the bi-election.

[00:18:40]It's that a writ has to be moved in parliament and and the prime minister and the chief whip they make that decision and that can be months. I myself stood in a bi-election that lasted for five months. Michael Martin said he'd stand down in May. Uh he actually left in June. The RIP wasn't moved till October and the election itself was in November. So there's all of that. Beth is what she raised this idea that you know Andy Burnham has a harder road here than all of these armchair generals that are saying, "Oh, well now he's running. He's got it in the bag. He's going to win." Because there's a lot and of twists and turns before you can you can even say that he's actually even probably the front runner yet.

[00:19:17]>> Yeah, that's absolutely right. And actually it was interesting talking to Jess Phillips because obviously she is a Wes Street in backer. She makes no secret of that but she also spoke uh in very uh favorable terms about Angela Raina and Ed Millerand when we were talking about uh what possible uh challenges there might be to Star. But when it came to Andy Burnham uh she was quite prickly. I thought I think she was probably voicing what what probably many people will see looking at it which is it's quite indulgent to uh like force a bi-election risk a bi-election as Harriet was saying when you don't know you're going to win it then if you do win it you trigger the Manchester Mel race uh which the party then has to do but look let's get into that because I've just spoken exclusively to Jess Phillips she was a member of this pod a while ago before she went into government. She has just resigned uh from government this week as the safeguarding uh minister. Um and let's listen to that interview now. It's the first time we've seen you uh since you resigned from government on Tuesday. Uh you resigned as the safeguarding minister and as I said this is the first time you've publicly spoken.

[00:20:35]>> Why did you resign?

[00:20:38]So look, a number of reasons really. Um I felt very strongly after the local elections um which you know have left my city completely and utterly divided between reform and then a sort of rainbow coalition of um of left-wing uh left-leaning, if you will, uh parties.

[00:21:06]um and frankly in a mess. Um I felt the same way that everybody felt. Uh the sort of like I knew this was coming sort of thing, but when you when your face actually hits the pavement, it is quite a different uh emotion.

[00:21:21]Um and um I also felt that all of my colleagues coming out and saying as they did in that moment, lots and lots of younger colleagues, lots of uh backbenches coming out and saying um that the prime minister, you know, wasn't capable of the bold change. And I just reflected on my time uh in government um and how I have been very very annoyed at many points about only like be being made to feel grateful for incremental change I suppose and then the prime minister made a speech about how you know he won't just stand for incremental change and it just didn't ring true to me.

[00:22:09]>> Okay. uh from my experience um of uh dealing with the number 10 operation uh and him and look I think Karma was a good man and I I've enjoyed working with him. This is not in any way personal um but like my own experiences charmed with the country's experiences and I often think if you think it and your constituents think it you're on a hidein to nothing ignoring it. Um, and so I also never waste a crisis. Somebody referred to me this week as Jess never waste a crisis Phillips. Um, I will never waste a crisis to push for an argument on violence against women and girls. And I saw an opportunity to do that uh in resigning as well. But I couldn't let my colleagues go over the hill and not give them some cover is genuinely how I felt. I felt like good one of my colleagues who I love very dearly and I she can speak for herself so will remain nameless. She rang me up and she said oh well what are you going to do then cuz I know you think this. I know you feel the same way as me. What are you going to do? And you know courage calls to courage everywhere I suppose.

[00:23:29]suffragettes that >> indeed suffragists I think Beth >> suffragists you just said Star is a good man but you also and you said that in the letter your letter but you also said he doesn't have the drive the fight you said have a row push back make arguments bring people along standing up and being counted can can't always be workshopped politics is as much about feelings as policy especially at the moment you what what you think he's just too robotic he can't connect He he doesn't bring passion. What what were you getting at there?

[00:24:01]>> Look, look, I mean, uh his his comm style is of little interest to me actually if you are decisive and you go out and make big arguments. It doesn't matter if you're, you know, like you're not like, we don't all have to, it's not strictly come dancing as somebody I think said yesterday. It um I think it was Chem Basok. In fact, um it you don't have to be glitzy. You have to be decisive. You have to be certain. You have to be driving at something. And we live in very very very politically like, you know, tempestuous times. And I think you've got to have a row. And look, what I had seen in government was, "Oh, be careful you don't upset these people. What about this lobby? What about this?" And I'm just like, "Make an argument and people will follow."

[00:24:54]>> You actually said in your resignation on this matter of policy, and I'll bring this up now.

[00:24:59]>> You said you explicitly criticized the prime minister for not blocking children being able to take naked images of themselves. You said because we dillydallyed and worried about text tech bosses. Was that the straw that broke the camel's back for you? What happened and what was the policy?

[00:25:15]>> Uh I mean so look look you the technology exists uh and actually it's already on most of uh lots of this is already on uh our phones uh nudity blockers that would stop um children being uh once your phone is age verified which Apple do now for example they age verify you um would be able to stop children being able to take naked images. Now if anyone in the country had seen what I have seen whilst doing my job, you you wouldn't wait for a second.

[00:25:49]I I have seen some of the most horrendous things. Children being live cammed using sex aids on themselves.

[00:26:03]91% as I say in my letter of the child abuse imagery that was found by the Internet Watch Foundation and reported to the police last year, 91%. So nearly all child sex abuse imagery was self-made by children on their own phones. I have absolutely no idea why it would take anyone a year to be convinced of the argument to do something about that.

[00:26:35]>> I have worked incredibly hard and there is amazing people in the civil service and some pretty amazing people actually um within Whiteall working on this to get this over the line. And we were like, "Oh, I was told it would be announced in March." Then it was like, "Oh, it'll be in June or when we can get a grid slot." And then when he made a speech about how I won't accept incremental change, I just thought, "My god, it's taken me a year to get somebody to the point of saying, "We'll ask the tech companies nicely." And it just felt like the very definition of incremental change to me.

[00:27:12]>> Do you think he just doesn't get it when he says that? He doesn't really get it.

[00:27:15]I I I don't think that K star like you know I think he's with me on the substantive. That's of no question whatsoever. He wants to end child abuse like that should not that is not in question at all.

[00:27:31]What I think that he um lacks and his operation lacks is the drive to get anything done with the gusto that is needed in a time like it's it's like a um uh a we run an analog government in a digital world.

[00:27:50]>> Yeah. And do you and you think he was he was hemmed in by tech bosses? He was worried about text bosses.

[00:27:59]>> 100%. Yeah. I don't know whether he was, but some of the people who were around him definitely were. Definitely definitely were. Why on earth wouldn't you have used the opportunity on Monday, for example, to like adv like advance the policy on social media? It's one of our great ills. That would have been a really bold thing to say.

[00:28:16]>> Did you want did you want him to come out on Monday and just say, I tell you what, it's a bold policy. I'm going to ban social media for under 16s, for example. Is that bold?

[00:28:27]>> That would likely have kept me in the 10. I'll be honest.

[00:28:30]>> Okay. Really?

[00:28:31]>> That would likely have kept me in the tent because it would have been something actually different.

[00:28:36]>> Um I just wanted to hear more. But he that would have kept me in the tent 100%.

[00:28:41]>> You watched that speech, you're like enough's enough. I cannot bear it anymore. This incremental change. He says we've got to do things differently, but it's all as you put it in your to quote another suffragist. Is that the word you Jude?

[00:28:54]>> Suffragist not indeed not words.

[00:28:56]Suffragist is courage to courage everywhere.

[00:28:59]>> Okay. But the deeds deeds not words.

[00:29:02]Other people have stayed in the tent are staying in the tent. What do you say to those colleagues?

[00:29:09]>> Look what I said. Look, people will make decisions on what they think is best for the country. Um and and look, I've got enough respect for my colleagues to think that they're making those decisions on the basis of what they think is best and good faith. But like the for me the situation is that I I think that there's lots of people not saying uh how they feel out loud. Um, and um, like I I think that people are worried about the process and all of that and I get all of that, but for me I just Yeah. Like I I I I find that very I find it very very difficult to uh the collective responsibility of not being able to say. I don't think I was ever um expected not to say that I wanted social media banned to be fair. I think that I I was perfectly able to say uh that I think I once said on Loose Women that we should switch the internet off. So, you know, I I was no stranger of uh >> I'm with you on that. Let's go back to the olden days.

[00:30:15]>> Apart from apart from vintage, I want a vintage carve out. Um but um but yeah, look, >> I think people are all making their decisions on the basis of what they think is right. Um, and but like I I I for me it was never going to be enough.

[00:30:33]>> And and chess, did you did you speak to the PM before you put out that letter?

[00:30:38]And what did you >> what did you say?

[00:30:40]>> No, I didn't I didn't I didn't speak to the prime minister before I put out the letter. But um and what I would say is that I'm I'm not sure it would have made any difference um uh at all uh because yeah, I think it if it finds it quite hard to listen, >> okay, >> unless there's a crisis >> like and the other thing I wrote in my letter and I can see it in the number 10 operation um today and yesterday is that they fight back and They run a really good operation when there's a crisis and I saw that over Mandlesson. I only managed to like you know really pushing on violence against women and girls always relied on there being a crisis that we had to get ourselves out of and that I can't sit around and wait for a crisis but I can see that their operation is quite slick at the moment because they're in a crisis and they're trying to protect him. And talking about a crisis, he had another crisis today because Wes Street and resigned as health secretary.

[00:31:45]What did you think of that? I mean, you are a friend of Wes. You're presumably backing him. Were you What was your reaction to that happening?

[00:31:53]>> Um, look, I I think it was brave uh that Wes um resigned today. And I know like you know, as somebody who has uh resigned twice now. Um Tom Watson says it gets easier every time you do it. Um but um it will have weighed on on a complete with a completely heavy heart.

[00:32:13]But if you think it if you think that that you you don't have faith in the prime minister and you've said it to his face I think it's very very hard to say isn't stay then isn't it? Um and so look I I think it's a the brave I think Wes has done the brave thing and I think he's been a brilliant um health secretary. Um and yeah look I think it it was the brave thing to do.

[00:32:40]>> Some some of your colleagues think it's really destabilizing and that Wes has tried to coordinate a string of resignations including yours. What what do you say to your colleagues that sort of would accuse Wes Street of plotting and you guys trying to force the issue? What what would you say to that, Jess?

[00:32:59]>> Look, what what I would say is there's a couple of things I suppose I would say to that is that the idea that all of my colleagues aren't plotting is for the is for the birds. I'm just like like you know it's politics, guys. Um like like every every camp is plotting. So should we just pretend? Should we just stop pretending? Um uh and the idea like the idea that I uh I have written so many resignation letters since I have been in the job. The idea that I did it because Wes Streeting wanted me to do it is uh I mean I literally have a mug in the home office that my uh private office bought for me that said I didn't quit my job today. Um because you know I I have found it quite challenging uh for quite some time. Um but look it it is destabilizing. I just think it's absolutely crazy the idea that the thing that is destabilizing isn't after the local election results that we just have. Somehow the prime minister's team have done an amazing job of making this somehow west streeting spa h take some responsibility. We're destabilized because of uh of the situation that we found ourselves in. Um and uh an unpopular prime minister who who people like you know feel is only able to have incremental change like that like you know you can support K star and I think he's a nice man and all of that but the idea that that the destabilization started with Wes Streeting I think or anyone else or Angela Raina or or Andy Bernham that we would have absolutely no problems in the Labour party if it weren't for uh if it weren't for them. I just it doesn't ring true.

[00:34:53]>> Are you worried that K star of staying in post is going to hand the country to reform?

[00:34:59]>> Of course that like that that is what worries me. As Wes in fact said in his letter, the sort of nationalism taking over the country that that that doesn't you know that that that's a worry to me and I worry that at the moment that is the trajectory that we are on. Um, and like I say, it's not personal about Kharma. I have absolutely no problem in him. I am I am worried about the prospects of what is going to happen to our country. And look, everybody has different tastes in how they do it. I think you there's a way through that with, you know, having a row and passion, which is what I said in my letter. and Jess um West Street's resigned, but in his letter he makes it clear that he's not going to uh trigger a leadership uh contest. He's not challenging the leadership.

[00:35:50]>> How long do you think well number one does Wes Street do you think have the numbers or do you think he doesn't and that's why he's not challenging now? And how long do you think it's going to rumble on for? Because we're in total limbo now, right? Look, nobody has the numbers in politics uh until uh they have the numbers. Uh I will tell you from bitter experience that a canvas does not always return the electoral result that you thought it was going to.

[00:36:18]Uh I won't swear here, Beth, but my father always uh used to say the trouble is when door knocking is people lie. Um he said it in a slightly more swary way.

[00:36:29]Um but like so look you nobody has uh uh the numbers until the contest is called.

[00:36:35]Yeah it seems like it's going to rumble on doesn't it? It seems like that's the outcome that is but it's not on West Streeting. It's not on anyone else. It will rumble on. Uh it's on the it's on the prime minister to make this better then isn't it?

[00:36:49]>> Do you think the the PM should set out this timetable now then? I mean, is that where you or or do you think it's inevitable that he's going to have to whether he wants to or not?

[00:37:01]>> Um, yeah. Look, I I think I don't really want it's not for me to give advice to the prime minister necessarily and certainly not anymore.

[00:37:10]I'm not part of his government. Um, I I I think he has to really really ask himself, is he the person who can who he who will win the next general election?

[00:37:23]and that can really really deliver in the meantime exactly what this country needs because what we have been offering uh is clearly not it's not being felt on the ground and we have done some amazing things like you know I I I don't underestimate that but all anyone can remember is the mistakes >> Jess would you like would you have liked streeting to have triggered the race would you have liked that to happen now I mean >> it again like it's very easy to say from the comfort of my home in Birmingham that I would like somebody to do something. Um I would I would much rather this uh was dealt with quicker but I don't think that's where streeting's responsibility. I think it's the prime minister's.

[00:38:09]>> Right. Okay. And just in terms of where streeting obviously if a leadership race does start you would presumably back where street right?

[00:38:19]>> I mean it would yeah it depends on all the candidates I suppose. It's funny because uh yeah, of course. I mean, look, Wes is my one Wes is one of is both a brilliant politician and he's one of my best friends. It would be remiss of I'd just be lying if I said anything else. I've got a huge amount of respect for uh um people like Angela Raina. Um and and you know what, also massive soft spot for Ed Milliband uh as well. Um so it it's funny, what do you think of Andy? Well, Andy isn't a member of parliament at the moment is uh my view on that. And look, I think you know Andy Benham used to work with my mom and so um yeah, my late mother. Um and uh and so yeah. Yeah. And he gets he gets a bit like Misty eyed when he talks to me about her. Um and so look, I have a huge amount of fondness for Andy Vernon. But uh I would also uh uh but what I would also say is that like just be really really careful of of um looking like it entitled it looked like you know it look it it there's a sort of level of uh in entitlement that I feel like I'll just have x y and zed seat I don't know I'm really rooted in the place where I represent maybe uh and so I I always think that it doesn't look great playing a sort of game of thrones.

[00:39:46]>> Yeah. I mean, you think the king of the north playing a game of thrones. I see what you did there. Did you mean to?

[00:39:52]>> I I I sort of didn't mean to, but maybe subconsciously Jon Snow. Yeah.

[00:39:58]>> But the po the point is I mean it was interesting because Harriet Harmon said to us on the pod the other week she thought that Andy should be brought back. I think what you're saying is actually the Labour Party trying to set out a timetable to sort of allow someone else to someone to get a seat to come back you don't think necessarily is the right thing to do.

[00:40:20]>> Look look look what I think look if Andy Bernham can make it back and can win the argument and can win people like me over then I'm totally here for it. That's not like you know that that that's not particularly in question. What what I'd say is that like yeah, it just to be really really careful that we don't that like that he doesn't and maybe this is some advice to him come across as a bit entitled like you know like the the competition's only legitimate if I'm part of it. It's just sort of like oh you know like >> I really really like David Atenburgh.

[00:40:52]>> Do you know what I mean?

[00:40:53]That's the news to lead the labor.

[00:40:56]>> Jess Phillips endorses David Atenburgh as the next Labour leader >> would win by a landslide. Would win by >> He actually would I mean he literally would win 90% of the country's vote straight off.

[00:41:08]>> Do I think he should be blocked and or all of that or or whatever? Like to be perfectly honest, it's sort of like I'm not really that interested in that particular argument, but I I just think you just have to be careful not to look entitled. What one more thing Jess the PM's argument and you know it and his allies are uh this is leadership battle would plunge the UK into chaos. Now is not the time to put economic stability at risk. Are you worried about this leadership crisis? How it reflects on the Labor Party and and the government uh and and that it's gifting something to your opponents? I mean what would you when you think about that? What do you think?

[00:41:51]>> Well, then I look I think if it drags on for ages then it potentially does uh you know it does harm um and once again I say this in the gift of the prime minister isn't it to deal with it.

[00:42:03]>> So like like that I don't know why that it's only his opponents who uh who uh and like I'm not his opponent. I just didn't want I I I like I have said my opinion about uh K star, but it's only other camps that they're saying that about also this idea and I have to say I'm going to debunk this slightly. Uh this idea that there will be loads of delay in being able to do policy if we have a leadership election. I you know I've known policies about launching really important things delayed by the grid. So the idea that Westminster acts in lightning speed at normal times I've got to say does not ring true >> to me. So um look >> politics isn't easy. Sometimes you have to go through difficult things to get a better result. That's that's just the top and bottom of it for me. But look like I I will step you know I am I am loyal to um the the government in the sense that like whatever gets decided I will put my shoulder to the wheel like I I want things to be better for women and girls in our country um and uh better for my constituents um who I have to say don't feel that our government is necessarily better for them at the moment um and like I will do that I you know Tom, Dick or Harry at the top, but it it it doesn't matter about the personality of the person at the top.

[00:43:31]What matters is that we are decisively taking arguments out to the country and winning them.

[00:43:38]>> And just finally then, Jess, whatever happens in the coming weeks, and I don't think any of us know what will happen.

[00:43:44]What you're clear about is that K Starmmer can't really in the long term continue as PM and he's either going to get forced out by the party or he could just in your view do what's right and and and sort of call it a day. That's kind of where you're at.

[00:43:59]>> Well, look, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is fundamentally uh where I am at. Um, I think that, you know, it's it's not been a success and like and I don't think that's malice on anybody's part, but we have lurched from crisis to crisis. Um, and they only ever sort of seem to pick up their game when there is a crisis going on and that seems like, you know, I just that doesn't seem very tenable for very long >> until like the next crisis. I mean, we've still got them like loads of the Mandlesson stuff to still like, you know, be released and things. It's just like what next?

[00:44:38]>> Okay. All right. Well, Jess, look, thank you so much for coming and talking to us. Uh we really appreciate it. Thank you.

[00:44:44]>> No props.

[00:44:45]>> So, look, we're back and and that was Jess uh Phillips there. Um she at times looked seemed quite upset, I thought, in that interview. I think she for I think it's probably been quite an emotional few days for her as it has been I think for lots of Labour MPs. This is tumultuous times. Uh and I think taking the decision to stand down from government calling out your prime minister uh these sorts of things. I think I've never had to do it. I imagine it's quite tough. I mean, um, Harriet, I I imagine that you don't, given what you've said earlier, necessarily agree with Jess's interpretation of the prime minister's leadership. Uh, what did you make of when she said he lacks drive to get anything done? Did you think that was a bit unfair or what what's your experience?

[00:45:34]>> Well, just first and foremost, I was just so so uh, you know, I felt it so grievously that Jess felt she had to resign. And you look at the um statement that was made about her resignation from Women's Aid. You know, she was seen to be because she always had been an absolute champion in the cause of tackling male violence against women and girls. And so she's such a loss to the government with her absolute drive and commitment. But you could you could hear what she was saying there. She just felt at the end of her tether and frustrated.

[00:46:09]And you know the truth is it is really hard to make change in government but she obviously just did didn't feel that she had the impetus of the prime minister behind her. But she made a very specific proposal in her resignation letter. You know pornography child pornography being made by children making nude images of themselves and being tricked into it. And that there is a way of dealing with that. And I hope that her legacy will be that Kia Starmer will read that letter and jump on it and actually say, "Well, you know, I'm disappointed to lose her." But she was completely right on that and we're going to do it.

[00:46:47]>> I mean, Ruth, >> I think what was really interesting about that is because she was so specific about that point about these 91% of images and and how look, if if you can stop 91% of images of women of children being exploited over the internet, why wouldn't you do it? Why' you why do you have to go off and, you know, spend a year talking about it? I I think what really struck me was the fact that given the crisis that the prime minister's in, she could have exerted enormous influence if she'd spoken to number 10 and said, "I'm going to resign unless you announce and she could have got that concession from them and got it down in black and white." But she's obviously completely lost faith with the idea that they can do anything because of that paralysis that we talked about.

[00:47:27]the idea that the prime minister would even be in post to be able to do something.

[00:47:32]>> I don't want to say the queen is dead, long live the queen, but and she is a grievous loss, Jess, but actually I think he's done a very smart appointment putting that fleet in.

[00:47:41]>> Something that struck me in the interview when we talked about the PM's speech on Monday and we talked about sort of how he talked about needing to be uh change and have an urgency. The thing that was interesting about what Jess was talking about was her frustration listening to that speech and she's like, "I know some things that you could that you could announce." And she talked about the under 16 media ban.

[00:48:07]Like you could have just said that's what you want to do or you know and and you could feel her frustration and and that that example that she put in her letter about the uh the on the the underage uh nudes kids. you can put software in to prevent underage uh children uh taking photos of news. And she said, you know, uh people around the PM were always worried about the text giants. And I felt in the interview the frustration a and and also what struck me when she was talking coming back to what you said Ruth was it was like that moment that make or break speech on Monday if he'd just done some more properly bold announcements and taken some bold decisions maybe he could have got some of his MPs to believe because what someone said to me earlier was that he'd been having people into his study ministers and he was saying please don't resign it or sorry please back me it will bring chaos but that someone said to me all they were thinking about was managing the crisis he wasn't sort of inspiring them about his leadership and that's kind of what she was getting at don't you think Ruth >> yeah and he wasn't even asking them and and what is it that you you know if there's a sense within the parliamentary party that I've not responded to that we need to go faster and be bolder in certain areas which areas that you want to talk about what do you what is it that you want this government to do. But again, part of the problem with that speech, and I think Jess did slightly sort of nail it when she she put in her resignation letter, was like your team around you picked up that this was going to be yet another big reset uh reset speech. It was going to be truly radical, just like you said that the king's speech was going to be radical.

[00:49:52]And there was nothing in there that we hadn't heard before. Where was the big idea? Where, you know, she wasn't even asking necessarily for the world to be changed. She was just like, can you just pick a fight with someone? and and because you want to make the argument for what we should be doing and where the country should be. Where should Britain be in five or 10 years, just tell me something, you know?

[00:50:12]>> And then on streeting, you know, she I said, you know, isn't this just bringing instability like the resignations and the drama and it's just making things worse, you know, and she sort of made the point, look, the instability didn't start with Wes Streeting. The instability started with some of the mistakes the government made a terrible set of election results and now kind of people like Jess or Wes are getting smashed up for you know reacting when actually it's the fact it goes back to the prime minister and I think what I picked up was that thing >> come on though she knows like she's a proper pro if she knows that if you shake the tree if you come for the king you have to kill the king. Yeah, but it's also the kind of the taking responsibility. I mean I mean did what did you think of that Harriet that she Well, I I said and we were discussing this on the on the pod that we recorded on Tuesday that the problem has not been caused by the instability. the the instability is a result of the problem of people feeling that they are struggling in their lives and feeling that they can't see a vision of hope from the f for the future from the prime minister and that is what the prime minister has got to fix and that's what has caused the instability can we just step back for a sec because I feel like I have been in like this this masttorm this whirlwind of news I don't know where I'm coming I don't know if I'm coming or going I'm kind of working I'm going to bed and I'm coming back and it's just like it's a rolling crisis. It's sort of it's it's like nothing. I it's quite hard to describe what it's like when you're in the middle of it. When you're in the kind of middle of this like raging storm, but if you take just a step back and you look at this, Harriet, can you believe that this is even happening? You are less than two years in to a Labor government that won a massive majority nearly as big as the Blair majorities of the new Labor years, you know, when he the 97 landslide. I mean, can you actually believe it's happening, Harriet, for your party?

[00:52:22]I mean certainly it is, you know, it it's it's horrific and clearly it's been acknowledged that some of the problem that we're in now is down to K not having delivered fast enough and not given a vision. But it's worth remembering that he he has inherited a situation that I can't think that any other prime minister has inherited before. not just very difficult economic circumstances but also global problems which are absolutely stuffing our economy and also this problem that I've got this this this problem that I keep highlighting is he's got an unvanquished opposition always in the past when a new prime minister has taken over nobody wants to hear from the opposition they're vanquished they've been chucked out why should anybody listen to them they're not a viable alternative government they were just in government and they've been got rid of and that is who the new prime minister faces and that gives them a state of a period of grace of about a year or so where they can go ahead and make lots of problem make lots of mistakes but they've haven't got a viable opposition karma from the moment he set foot in Downing Street he faced the unvanquished opposition which was reform if he only had to face Kem Beno he would be looking marvelously prime ministerial but because you pretty much filleted them this week. No, she is she is uh improving but but actually this is nearly two years in but right from the moment I'm saying Ruth that he got in he's faced this insurgent surging uh phenomenon of Farage and that's made it very difficult he hasn't had any space in which to get his feet under the desk in a way that you know in 97 you know the the new Blair government which I was part of loads of mistakes were made but there was no viable alternative so people just you know just got on with it.

[00:54:17]>> Ruth, I cuz I keep when Harriet just said that um I sort of think about what we were talking about maybe at the beginning of the year a few months ago where you thought Kem Beno uh would be a goner, but I don't think that you predicted I don't think that any of us predicted that Starmer would face a leadership challenge potentially. I mean, what do you think?

[00:54:39]>> No. Although we were quite early on when I said that he wouldn't I think I said the earliest of the three of us that he'd be gone by his his conference but that but that was more recently than the than the turn of the year. I I take Harriet's point about there being a third force here and that third force is far but I only take it up to a point because he had every advantage when he first became prime minister and the Labour party had every advantage. They had an enormous majority. They had uh they had broken the Conservative Party in terms of it was a rump of what it had previously been. We'd also just come out of an election where we couldn't tell a story about our time in government because we changed our prime ministers so often and they'd all contradicted each other. There was no coherent narrative about what a conservative is.

[00:55:20]I think Kristarmmer's fundamental problem is he came in with this enormous majority looking like the world had fallen in, talked Britain down, said everything was terrible. It was going to take him years to ever fix anything in Britain. And actually people didn't want to hear it. They wanted hope and he didn't deliver it. And he didn't deliver change either. And that's what's come and bit him in the backside.

[00:55:39]>> Well, that's all we have time for, but we should say that we've had the podcast crossover of the century this week.

[00:55:45]Beth, you've had a mega fan in the form of Jordan North.

[00:55:49]>> Again, I won't hear a bad word said about her. Beth Riby, you got any answer to the questions? Poor minister? She's constantly heckling.

[00:55:56]>> That is an elected representative of the people as opposed to a member of the royal family. Are you going to >> Are YOU GOING TO WIZZ with your Bob? Calm down. I love her, by the way. It's my favorite political There's I've got quite a few political correspondents that I like.

[00:56:10]>> Okay.

[00:56:11]>> Cuz yeah, >> give us your top three.

[00:56:13]>> Okay. Uh, easily. Right. I'm going to say Beth Riby.

[00:56:19]>> Lovely.

[00:56:19]>> Chris Mason.

[00:56:20]>> Okay.

[00:56:21]>> Joe Pike. But Beth Riby, something about her.

[00:56:24]>> Okay.

[00:56:25]>> It's the Bob. When Beth Riby interviews Rachel Reeves, you can't tell the difference.

[00:56:32]>> Yeah, it's Bob on Bob. It's great.

[00:56:34]>> Does Rachel Reeves have a bob? Of >> course she has a bob.

[00:56:37]>> I don't think she has a bob.

[00:56:38]>> She does. Apparently she does.

[00:56:40]>> She does. There you go.

[00:56:41]>> IS THAT HOW I SOUND? CUZ I QUITE liked it.

[00:56:44]>> Do you know I slightly flatter myself that I do a better version of Beth Rigby shouting at cabinet ministers and Jordan North? But um you know uh we we've all got we've all got one. We can all do the impression. And and I should tell our listeners actually that when we were at the leaving due of your former exec producer Shaa. Hi Shona. Um she told me that that your plan for later life when the two of you retire is you're going to open a pub and what's your pub going to be called? Your cocktail bar.

[00:57:10]>> Bob and Lips.

[00:57:12]>> What's it called?

[00:57:13]>> The Bob and Lips.

[00:57:13]>> The Bob and Lips.

[00:57:14]>> Lipstick. The Bob and Lipstick. The Bob and Lipstick.

[00:57:17]>> Yeah. We're just going to have um like the the thing will just be a Bob in a silhouette with red lips. It's called the Bob and Lips. We're going to open a pub. Well, >> and and Rachel Reeves can come. Bridget Phillipsson can come. Uh Lucy Powell, I believed, had a Bob. Who else had a Bob?

[00:57:32]Jess Phillips has got a Bob back. What other women have got a Bob in the Harriet Harmon has a Bob.

[00:57:37]>> And we should also say that it's really nice to hear you're such a fan of Beth Jordan. We are also fans of Beth in the studio. And thank you so much to the team at Audio Always. So that's Ben Stew and Jack. They were letting us share that clip there. And you can watch Jordan and William in full on YouTube.

[00:57:52]>> Thanks Ben Stew and Jack. I love that.

[00:57:55]That's really That's going to keep me going now for at least another week of political madness. Send us your questions and your comments. We love to get to you over the burner phone. It's 079342004 or email us at electoral dysfunctions sky.uk.

[00:58:13]We might be back for an emergency episode in the next 24 hours. Who knows?

[00:58:17]But otherwise, goodbye and we'll see you next week.

[00:58:20]>> Bye. Goodbye.