Vote Chori & the West Bengal Elections 2026 | Are Indian Elections Rigged?

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]Chief Ministers losing their seats, Chief Ministers refusing to give up their ministership, and a large-scale voter manipulation. This is what Indian elections have been about in the last couple of years. Is it merely a political tactic, or there is something really big happening? Is there an actual erosion of democracy in India? Let's find out with Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan.

[00:00:22]Hello, sir. Hello, Aditya.

[00:00:24]Sir, in the recent elections, the common narrative is that there is a large-scale voter manipulation happening in this country.

[00:00:33]I want to understand this from you, because we have seen so many elections, and in our conversations, we have tried to understand democracy. So, my first question to you is, are we actually closing our eyes to a an active erosion of democracy in the country? Not at all, not in this respect. There is a serious erosion of democracy. It has been for a long time, in terms of rule of law, in terms of centralization of power, in terms of judicial corruption, in terms of abuse of power.

[00:01:03]These [clears throat] are all endemic in the country. We all know that. No state, no party is exempt.

[00:01:09]But, if you are saying there is a a process problem of conduct of elections that is causing erosion of democracy, it is absolute nonsense.

[00:01:20]It was nonsense now then, it is nonsense now.

[00:01:23]Sir, now you always often mention four postulates of democracy, right? Two of them, free and fair elections, and peaceful transfer of power. A sitting Chief Minister refusing to give up power. Both are happening in India right now. This to me, at least, looks like erosion of democracy, and the sitting government, or the ruling dispensation, is just denying it. No, it's not erosion of democracy per se. Yes, certain players are not playing by the rules, Aditya.

[00:01:52]Are not respecting due process. That has been always there.

[00:01:55]It's probably a little more common today than before. I'll give you a couple of examples.

[00:02:01]In 1998, a majority government of Kalyan Singh was dismissed in UP by the then governor Ramesh Bhandari without any just cause.

[00:02:12]On the pretext that they lost majority, actually they didn't lose majority.

[00:02:16]And he installed suddenly without any advanced notice or without any opportunity for the government of the day to prove its majority support in the legislature, whatever, dismissed the government, installed Jagatambika Pal as Chief Minister.

[00:02:33]Ordinarily, I'm opposed to court's intervention in political process.

[00:02:37]But that time, Kalyan Singh went to the Supreme Court because that is the only thing to do.

[00:02:42]If constitution failed in such a manifest manner, you can't allow anarchy on the street. So, somebody has to play the umpire's role. Supreme Court played the umpire's role quite rightly in that case and directed a test of the majority in the floor of the floor of the assembly in a transparent manner with CCTV cameras and observers, etc. Kalyan Singh won hands down.

[00:03:04]Jagatambika Pal had no majority at all.

[00:03:08]Pal refused to hand over office.

[00:03:10]He went into a sulk.

[00:03:13]He went into a truant. So, like a truant child, he locked himself in the office of the Chief Minister.

[00:03:18]>> [snorts] >> And I understand that the newspaper reports that you have believed uh and you can verify the reports of newspapers those days, 1998.

[00:03:27]He locked himself up inside. The Chief Secretary and the Secretary to Chief Minister had to plead him from outside, bang the door, and say, "Please, sir, come out. You can't simply occupy this room forever." It was almost farcical.

[00:03:38]It was juvenile. But there was a uh a reluctance to give up. And I believed that if only he occupied that physical space of the Chief Minister's office, he'll survive. He would not. Eventually, he came out and he handed over.

[00:03:51]And the funny part is today Mr. Jagad Bigapadi is an MP of the Bharatiya Janata Party.

[00:03:58]So, you know, sometimes these things happen. So, we do not should not overreact, but we should be mindful of that.

[00:04:07]Certainly, it is a custom that a head of government resigns promptly after losing the mandate of the people in an election.

[00:04:16]Every government Indira Gandhi for the first time when Congress lost office at the height of emergency Mrs. Gandhi was supremely powerful in the country.

[00:04:24]Congress party had a sway over most of India at that time.

[00:04:28]And yet, she humbly accepted the verdict of the people and resigned.

[00:04:33]And like Mamata Banerjee, she also lost her own seat.

[00:04:36]Her son lost her seat. She did not go into a sulk.

[00:04:40]And she fought back politically earned the appreciation of the people and got the mandate in 1980, she came back as a legitimate prime minister of India.

[00:04:50]That is politics. You may not like a verdict, but you respect a verdict.

[00:04:55]You don't question the people's choices.

[00:04:58]People may not vote wisely all the time, but they're equally unwise when they elect you.

[00:05:04]People are not suddenly more unwise or less unwise when they elect you or XYZ.

[00:05:10]We are an imperfect democracy. We're a work in progress.

[00:05:13]But the people of India have the right to decide whom they elect.

[00:05:18]And nobody in the country can credibly argue that the people are voting by force.

[00:05:23]Yes, they're voting because of inducements.

[00:05:26]Take Andhra Pradesh, Telangana where we are sitting, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu.

[00:05:31]Enormous amounts of money change hands.

[00:05:33]Though Tamil Nadu happily which I select should not see change of money.

[00:05:39]I'm pleasantly surprised that in Tamil Nadu people did not vote for the money bags.

[00:05:46]Let's hope this pattern will continue to spread across the country and will prevail. But as of now in many parts of the country, money makes a very big difference that inducement to vote. So people may take money.

[00:05:58]People may vote for future inducements at the cost of the long-term good.

[00:06:02]People who may vote for caste or region or religion. All these are irrational impulses, but people voted voluntarily.

[00:06:11]Nobody forced them to vote in a certain manner.

[00:06:13]The votes are counted honestly.

[00:06:16]Electoral rolls are flawed and for time the one who way back in '98, '99 came out with the severely flawed electoral rolls across the country.

[00:06:24]Big surveys were conducted in Andhra Pradesh, Telangana, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, uh Maharashtra, Bengal, incidentally Kolkata, and Delhi.

[00:06:33]And we found everywhere urban India particularly huge inflation of electoral rolls.

[00:06:38]And that's why we fought for expansion of the voter identity cards across the country making it universal. That's what the Election Commission did. So even if the electoral rolls were not perfect, the voting process was not seriously affected because there was a photo identity card. There are processes and safeguards to make sure that there's no bogus voting.

[00:06:54]Now they're probably trying to clean up the inflated electoral rolls in many cases.

[00:06:58]And in rest of India really there's no problem.

[00:07:01]Tamil Nadu for instance voter list.

[00:07:04]The same SIR special intensive revision took place. While the pro forma protests were launched, there were hardly any murmur of protest or serious issue.

[00:07:12]Because in the rest of India, if you take away the areas bordering Bangladesh, there is no real problem. At least there's no perception of a problem of infiltration of foreigners illegally coming into India who are not citizens living here because we can't distinguish them physically.

[00:07:28]The problem probably exists only in West Bengal and Assam.

[00:07:31]Assam 1980s remember Nelly massacre and AGP's rise to power suddenly demolishing the established parties by that time. Mahanta became the Chief Minister.

[00:07:42]It was entirely based on that. So, that's a unique local problem.

[00:07:46]Otherwise, what it is are never a serious problem.

[00:07:50]Then or now. An intensive revision is a normal process.

[00:07:55]And Supreme Court is looking at it.

[00:07:57]And if I don't believe Supreme Court of India, if I don't believe Election Commission of India, if I don't believe all the district magistrates or the municipal commissioners in all these states and cities who are in charge of election management, and if I think despite everything, I alone am right, then you are uniquely anointed by God to decide what is right, what is wrong.

[00:08:19]There is a due process to decide what is right, what is wrong.

[00:08:22]And a democratic system survives when I recognize that even if I don't like your action, I respect your legitimacy.

[00:08:30]There are judgments of Supreme Court which I seriously disagree with.

[00:08:34]For instance, the collegium system.

[00:08:37]Supreme Court arrogating to itself the power of appointing its successors. It's undemocratic.

[00:08:43]I oppose it.

[00:08:44]But it doesn't mean that I don't follow the verdict. And at this point of time, that is the verdict until Parliament overrules that by a constitutional amendment, which in turn has to be upheld by the Supreme Court. This is what it is. I fight for sanity.

[00:08:58]But I don't fight in an anarchic manner because that's anarchy.

[00:09:03]If you don't accept the verdict of the people, if there's no peaceful transfer of power, that's anarchy. Sir, I want to stay on the erosion of democracy for some time. Uh, democratic institutions generally do not fall at the whim of a snap, for example.

[00:09:19]In history, we see it's a slow erosion of capturing the institution.

[00:09:23]And I think that's what is happening.

[00:09:25]The institution of Election Commission of India is being captured step by step.

[00:09:28]There is no accountability for the commission, and there is no accountability for the government also in the popular discourse and media.

[00:09:35]So, do you think that we'll only see the Election commission is captured when something drastic happens? These are all steps that indicate that it is getting captured.

[00:09:42]There's no evidence at all that the election commission is captured.

[00:09:47]Because each step that the election commission has taken is put to judicial scrutiny, public scrutiny, political scrutiny, parliamentary scrutiny.

[00:09:56]In each of these, there is no verifiable evidence that any serious mistake has happened. Now, I remember for a quarter century or more, people argued that electronic voting machines are all fraudulent.

[00:10:09]Three popular and powerful chief ministers, Mr. Chandrababu Naidu in Andhra Pradesh at that time, Miss Jayalalithaa in Tamil Nadu at that time, and Captain Amarinder Singh in Punjab at that time. When they lost office in elections, all three of them blamed the electronic voting machines, and they went to Supreme Court.

[00:10:29]Supreme Court examined it threadbare, finally concluded that there's no merit in the arguments, and dismissed them.

[00:10:34]All three of them, these leaders, they won back power with a thumping mandate later with the same electronic voting machines.

[00:10:42]So, I cannot argue that when I get elected, everything is okay.

[00:10:46]When I don't get elected, everything is rotten.

[00:10:49]That's a very dangerous situation.

[00:10:52]Because if you don't go by the established procedure of law and due process of law, if you don't respect the verdict even when you don't like it, nobody wants to lose power.

[00:11:02]Everybody in power thinks that he is God's gift to humanity.

[00:11:06]And if you vote him out, then people are unwise.

[00:11:10]Unfortunately, democracy is not based on this. It's not based on your intelligence or moral strength or your competence.

[00:11:21]It's only based on whether people trust you or not. They want you or not. Period.

[00:11:29]We have to respect the verdicts. So, sir, is the Election Commission of India sacrosanct? Can they be questioned? They are questioned.

[00:11:37]We are questioning every day.

[00:11:39]We are questioning every day their decisions. There's a public scrutiny, and there's judicial scrutiny.

[00:11:45]If you don't accept that there is a due process, the Supreme Court can examine and take a decision.

[00:11:53]Parliament can make a law to change the procedure.

[00:11:56]You can go to the people and then get a mandate for a fundamental change if you so wish, and the people are desir- desirous of that. And if the constitutional scheme permits it, because Supreme Court ordained that no change of the Constitution is permitted beyond a certain limit. The basic structure of the Constitution, that is his- settled law of the country. So, within these bounds, if you don't accept these constraints, it's anarchy.

[00:12:19]You're basically saying that what I say rules.

[00:12:23]The person with the biggest voice, the loudest noise, the person with the gun or the muscle on the street, it will prevail. That's no longer democracy or constitution. Constitutionalism means I accept a duly elected government.

[00:12:38]I accept a due process. I accept the result of a due process, even if I don't like the outcome.

[00:12:44]I may not like a certain law, but I don't reject it because I don't like the law, as long as the law is constitutional.

[00:12:52]And who tests the constitutionality? The Supreme Court tests it.

[00:12:56]If I arrogate to myself the the power to test the constitutionality of a law and therefore whether or not I comply with the law, there's no law left any longer.

[00:13:06]That's what due process means.

[00:13:08]So, these are basic principles. I'll give you two examples of great nobility of conduct in our country.

[00:13:15]One Both of them were 1999.

[00:13:18]Mr. Vajpayee's government was facing a no-confidence motion.

[00:13:22]I don't want to go into merits and demerits.

[00:13:24]Given India's propensity to buy legislators And legislators propensity to be bought.

[00:13:31]At least a significant number of legislators propensity to be bought.

[00:13:34]The Prime Minister of India at the time could easily have bought 30, 40, 50 legislators.

[00:13:40]To vote in his favor.

[00:13:41]He did not buy a single vote.

[00:13:46]The speaker of the house Mr. Balayogi at the time could have prevented the Chief Minister of Orissa who was the member of Lok Sabha at that time. He's continuing to be a member of Lok Sabha, Gamang, from voting.

[00:13:57]Everybody knew the vote was going to be razor thin.

[00:14:00]Whoever wins the side opposing or supporting the government, they'll only get a razor thin margin.

[00:14:07]So, the temptation I'm sure must have been very, very strong.

[00:14:11]But the speaker said, "I will not disenfranchise him. He's a duly elected member of Lok Sabha. Even if he's now Chief Minister of a state, I leave it to his conscience whether he should really weigh his put his thumb on the scale."

[00:14:24]Giridhar Gamang voted against the government. The government fell by one vote.

[00:14:28]Prime Minister Vajpayee, very with a great dignity, gave his statement.

[00:14:34]And gave his resignation instantly.

[00:14:37]And then went back to people. People gave him support and he came back to office.

[00:14:41]So, in our democracy, this nobility is also seen. So, let's not be uh discouraged by a few uh intemperate acts of a few unthinking leaders or politicians.

[00:14:52]Sir, let me just now draw a chain of events for you because I still want to sort of pick your brain on this, right?

[00:14:58]Uh the government comes up with an amendment on who can appoint the election commissioner and who is uh they take away the Supreme Court Chief Justice Chief Justice out of the panel that appoints them, right?

[00:15:08]Then the Chandigarh incident happens in local elections. The government says CCTV records will not be public. No, let's take one at a time.

[00:15:14]>> Okay.

[00:15:15]Take the appointment of election commissioners.

[00:15:18]What was the process since 1950 in this country?

[00:15:22]So, you had uh the Prime Minister leader of opposition and the Chief Justice of India.

[00:15:28]Never in history people must know what is the What are the facts?

[00:15:34]Never was a collegium involved in appointing the Election Commissioner in the history of this country.

[00:15:40]It was always a prime ministerial appointment.

[00:15:43]It was always a recommendation made by the cabinet, the Prime Minister to the President signed.

[00:15:49]Whether a single member election commissioner, chief election commissioner, or a multi-member, three-member commission.

[00:15:54]Always.

[00:15:56]Never an exception.

[00:15:58]So, what is new that happened? If anything now, there is a collegium involved in the opposition leader.

[00:16:04]The only thing that is that's disputed is should the Chief Justice of India be there? I personally think no.

[00:16:12]Involving judiciary everywhere is not a very smart idea.

[00:16:15]In fact, I was the one who proposed the appointment of the Information Commissioners in the country under the Right to Information Act should be by a collegium comprising of the Prime Minister, leader of opposition, and the Chief Justice.

[00:16:28]The then government requested me saying that look, already we have a problem.

[00:16:33]Judiciary is intervening too often in too many areas.

[00:16:36]Let's not involve the judiciary here.

[00:16:39]I promptly agreed with that, and we put a minister there. That's the same pattern that's proposed here, too.

[00:16:45]We never appointed an Election Commissioner with the involvement of Chief Justice of India or anybody else except the Prime Minister until now.

[00:16:52]Now there's actually a collegium.

[00:16:54]They're saying, "My God, democracy is derailed." So, since 1950, democracy has been derailed?

[00:17:01]Prime Minister nominating a Chief Election Commissioner has been a disaster for the country?

[00:17:06]What rubbish are you talking?

[00:17:08]So, first you must know the facts.

[00:17:10]Don't manufacture facts on the basis of whether you like the Prime Minister of the day and the Chief Minister of the day.

[00:17:16]Facts are facts, logic is logic.

[00:17:19]Separately, if you like a particular party's political position, you vote for them.

[00:17:24]If you don't like a particular party's political position, you vote against them.

[00:17:27]But let's not manufacture facts and and invent new arguments to suit the occasion.

[00:17:33]The second thing that I was coming to, sir, was restricting public access to election records, CCTV footage. The opposition party has been repeatedly asking if we can get CCTV footage, and apparently the commission has been has been denying that.

[00:17:46]Does it Is it not the commission's role?

[00:17:47]Sir, apparently.

[00:17:48]>> Yes, because we don't That's what the party is claiming. Exactly. Yeah, so is Now, they've all gone to Supreme Court?

[00:17:53]Yes.

[00:17:55]Somewhere you must trust somebody.

[00:17:56]Supreme Court is a body which is independent.

[00:17:58]Oh, you tell me you don't trust the Supreme Court also. You want to go to somebody else? International Court of Justice, is it?

[00:18:04]You want to go to the armed forces, is it?

[00:18:06]There's a Supreme Court. They've examined all these issues.

[00:18:10]See, election is conducted in about 10 lakh or so polling booths. Maybe more.

[00:18:16]Maybe 11 or 12 lakh polling booths.

[00:18:18]There are 1 crore people involved in the conduct of elections.

[00:18:22]It's the largest exercise in the history of mankind, a single exercise.

[00:18:28]10 million people, 10 million public servants involved in the conduct of elections.

[00:18:34]I'm not talking about the politicians and the political cadres. I'm talking about the officials conducting elections.

[00:18:40]Now, if you want 10 or 12 lakh polling booths, CCTV cameras, uh the the tapes, 8 hours or whatever the number of hours, and that means 8 crore hours, who is going to monitor where, and how are you going to even handle that?

[00:18:59]So, there has to be a process. Even on the Right to Information Act, what did we say?

[00:19:02]Information that is not already existing, or that is difficult to put together, that's so voluminous that it's impractical, cannot be asked for or cannot be given.

[00:19:13]But supposing the executive authority said no, then there is a due process. You can go to court, appellate authority. After that, you can go to court.

[00:19:22]And in this country, at the drop of a hat, we're going to courts in this country.

[00:19:26]In fact, off late, we're going to courts even after the election is notified.

[00:19:30]One of the good things about Indian practice so far, now it is slowly breaking down, is that once election is notified, the courts will not intervene. That has been the norm in India, which is an excellent norm. Excellent norm.

[00:19:45]Now, suddenly, the day before counting, the day before polling, we were courts to intervene, and courts have exercised remarkable restraint. I appreciate them.

[00:19:53]I monitored the election in Kenya, the first parliamentary election after 27 years of dictatorship, way back in 2002.

[00:20:01]It was a remarkable election.

[00:20:04]In Kenya, I found two things, unlike India.

[00:20:10]One, for the election, they specially recruit a whole bunch of people temporarily to conduct.

[00:20:18]No presiding officer, the polling personnel, and all that. Whereas, in India, we depend on the existing personnel.

[00:20:25]I happen to believe that this is working well.

[00:20:28]I saw wherever I went in Kenya at that time, returning officer's main task before the elections is recruiting these chaps. In a poor country, even for a month or two, recruitment is a big thing, right? And then hope that in future will not be permanent government employees. There'll be protests and all kinds of stuff.

[00:20:44]So, you're not actually organizing election, you're recruiting people.

[00:20:48]And these are raw people, well-meaning people, I'm sure. Our bureaucracy is notoriously incompetent in this country.

[00:20:55]This is after a rigorous selection process and some degree of training and experience. Imagine fresh faces with zero understanding of knowledge and procedures and protocols. They come in suddenly, and you try to recruit them.

[00:21:09]Is it humanly possible? It will not work.

[00:21:13]Second thing I noticed, the courts were intervening every minute because they had no experience. Everybody goes to court, court immediately gives an order, and courts are well-meaning. But courts have no capacity to deal with this. It's impossible.

[00:21:24]So later, a few years later, the whole Kenyan Election Commission and the court Supreme Court of Kenya came to Delhi to visit Indian Election Commission and understand Indian election process and learn from us because among the emerging democracies, post-independence, post-colonial countries, or post- Second World War, India is preeminent in democratic culture. They wanted to learn. The Election Commission of India requested me to to to sit with them.

[00:21:50]I had a long meeting with Chief Justice of Kenya and the whole body. I told them, "Whatever you do, you embrace the Indian practice.

[00:22:00]Don't allow the judicial process to interfere with the election conduct after the notification of election."

[00:22:06]So now, each country has its culture.

[00:22:07]Tomorrow, somebody says, "Kenya does it, therefore I will also recruit people."

[00:22:11]1 crore people you want to recruit?

[00:22:13]These are all employees who? They are under the control of the state government. They are employees of the state government. Voter registration is controlled by whom? At least election time, the state government can claim that, "Look, Mamata Banerjee can claim that look, during election time, the the authority shifted to Election Commission temporarily."

[00:22:31]But voter registration is round the year.

[00:22:34]All the 5 years, normal administration time, who are in charge? District magistrates, municipal commissioners. Who appoints them?

[00:22:43]The chief minister of the day.

[00:22:46]The employees down the line, that revenue division officers, the subdivision magistrates, the deputy commissioners of municipalities, or the tahsildars, or by whatever variation you call them, what designation you call them, or others, these are the electoral registration officers. Who are all appointing them?

[00:23:01]The state government. Who are posting them? The state government. Who are politicizing the local administration?

[00:23:06]The state government. What is average tenure of the government officials in most of the states in India for district magistrates, for the tahsildars, for the others? 6 to 9 months.

[00:23:16]Who is in charge of that? The state government.

[00:23:19]They are doing it.

[00:23:20]And you are complaining that somebody is doing from Delhi, some three people sitting there and conspiring and doing everything. Whereas all the machinery is yours, under your control.

[00:23:31]This is the reality. See, people do not know how the administration runs in this country. For them, it's a very great mystery. Because most of them, it doesn't run.

[00:23:41]It doesn't deliver.

[00:23:42]So, we get confused. Therefore, anything goes because we are so angry with politics, with good reason.

[00:23:48]We hate political process so much, sometimes with good reason. No, do not wisely.

[00:23:54]We are willing to believe the worst about everything under the sun.

[00:23:58]There are real problems of politics of India.

[00:24:00]I have been shouting from rooftops for the past 30 years plus.

[00:24:04]Your party is a totally functioning like private estates.

[00:24:13]Money is flowing like like water.

[00:24:18]Thousands of crores of illegitimate expenditure to buy the votes and to offer inducements to voters.

[00:24:24]You are depending too much on the short-term welfare at the cost of long-term good to induce people.

[00:24:29]Therefore, the governance is completely given the go-by. Everything is transactional.

[00:24:34]You give me the vote, I'll give you the free things, and after that, I will not perform the function of the government.

[00:24:39]And you are dividing society on caste, region, religion, and whatever else is possible, language, etc. All these are terrible.

[00:24:47]You criminalized politics.

[00:24:50]All these are terrible.

[00:24:52]But the process of election is not the problem.

[00:24:55]These problems are independent of the actual conduct of elections. We getting confused because we're angry with the political outcomes, governance outcomes, and politics in general. We think everything is about elections, conduct of elections.

[00:25:10]Because Indians love an election contest like a tennis match or a 2020 cricket match. Indians love to be polarized and emotional. Indians love to protest and shout because that's after all the legacy of the freedom struggle.

[00:25:23]So, we think that this one issue which engages our attention because that is the most riveting thing. And that day everybody's eyeballs are on the television.

[00:25:32]Rest of the year, rest of the 5 years, what they do, we don't care, we don't know, we don't bother.

[00:25:36]But who is winning, who is losing, who is in power, who is proximate to power, that seems to engage our attention phenomenally.

[00:25:44]Think a little deeper.

[00:25:47]It's all the same in a broad sense.

[00:25:50]In fact, in most cases, same people.

[00:25:53]The people who are contesting on behalf of party A today were just until yesterday in party B.

[00:25:58]We're pretending as if there's a real real thing there. No.

[00:26:04]The real problem is elsewhere. It is a political parties management. It's about money power, wrong kind of political recruitment, candidate choice in the country.

[00:26:13]It is about inducements to the people.

[00:26:16]It's about short-term welfare at the cost of the long-term good. It's about failure of rule of law. It's about centralization of power.

[00:26:24]It's about dividing society for short-term political gain. How do you build institutions and political structures and processes to overcome that? That is the challenge of India.

[00:26:33]Not whether X has become chief minister or Y has become chief minister. Our obsession with individuals, or even parties, must give way to the process.

[00:26:42]How to improve it? How to get the best into politics? How do you allow them rise through ethical and rational means?

[00:26:48]How do you provide genuine alternatives to people?

[00:26:51]And how do you actually deliver on the mandates offered by the people? In all these four, we are doing pretty badly.

[00:26:58]Whereas our attention is devoted entirely on who is winning, who is losing. And therefore we think that's where the solution lies. It's absolutely not.

[00:27:07]So, but is it not an inevitable outcome of representative democracy that we sort of focus narrowly on who is my chief minister or who is my leader?

[00:27:15]>> No, we obviously have to focus on that because elections still matter. It's not that all parties are the same. At least on some issues there is a demonstrable difference. Sometimes there isn't, but sometimes there is. For instance, right now in the country, if you take broadly, there is one view that distribution of whatever tax money you receive to the poor is the most important requirement of India.

[00:27:40]There's another view which says that while welfare and distribution is necessary, you have to create wealth and foster economic growth and build infrastructure and promote investment.

[00:27:50]This is one big debate that's going on in the country.

[00:27:55]And local context some other things may be there. In some cases it may be really about who is more competent to deliver because between DMK and ADMK, honestly, there is no difference.

[00:28:07]The social coalitions they represent may be somewhat different, but ultimately they stand for the same thing.

[00:28:12]There's no difference. So, in some states, like take for instance Odisha, between Naveen Patnaik's BJD and BJP in Odisha, honestly, there's no difference.

[00:28:22]One is regional, one is national. But otherwise in terms of politics and the agenda, there's no real difference. In some cases there's some difference, but the real difference that ought to be there, decentralization of power, rule of law, political transformation of India, transforming the nature of politics and elections in the country, and ending corruption, I don't think there is right now any party dedicated to those values and fighting to change the nature of governance of India.

[00:28:51]So, it's really [clears throat] about who is in power. I remember a very prominent politician in very high constitutional office 35-40 years ago saying, "Jayaprakash, you're always talking about constitution in India, democracy. In the corridors of power, all that doesn't matter. All that matters is who is in and who is out."

[00:29:10]That is our over-living obsession. Yes, it matters who is in and who is out, but that's If that's our only obsession, it's not about outcomes, then we're in a sorry situation.

[00:29:21]Sir, let's take this debate outside the Election Commission for some time. The last three elections, state elections, and I'll name them.

[00:29:29]Uh three sitting chief ministers have been unseated from their own constituencies.

[00:29:33]Arvind Kejriwal lost from his constituency. Mamata Banerjee lost from her constituency.

[00:29:38]Stalin lost from his constituency.

[00:29:40]Is that chief ministers losing from their own constituencies gives more fuel to this narrative that the elections are rigged?

[00:29:48]Because and I'll give you other I'll give you other side of the coin as well.

[00:29:51]Because the other uh defense is it's anti-incumbency. But this anti-incumbency seems to work in only non-BJP states. Gujarat has had a BJP government. Haryana has has had a BJP government. There seems to be no anti-incumbency there. Madhya Pradesh, no anti-incumbency. How do you see this?

[00:30:06]Everybody who understands politics knows that the chief minister is the king of the state.

[00:30:11]Some chief ministers more so depending on the cadres of the party, family's history, so on and so forth.

[00:30:18]Stalin certainly is one of those kings of the state.

[00:30:23]And Mamata Banerjee is certainly queen of the state given her stature.

[00:30:27]In such a situation, if any rigging happens in a constituency locally, it's always in favor of the chief minister.

[00:30:34]Not against the chief minister because the whole machinery is in your favor. Even the elites, establishment, all castes, and even the general public generally don't want to lose a powerful leader.

[00:30:49]Even if you don't like the party, generally because the patronage extended by powerful leaders in a country where there's no real rule of law, the greater power you enjoy as a legislator, the more patronage you can extend to the people in the constituency. People understand that very well.

[00:31:04]That's why if you notice local elections and by-elections, they generally side with the ruling party even if they don't like the party. They come general election they might change the verdict.

[00:31:12]Because people also know they act in their own view tactically.

[00:31:17]So, to say that Chief Minister's defeat is an indication of rigging is the ultimate idiocy.

[00:31:26]If anything, that only shows that it's most unlikely that there's rigging.

[00:31:31]What's happening is something more troubling.

[00:31:35]There is increasing volatility in the country.

[00:31:38]The Gen Z, the young people, they're increasingly volatile.

[00:31:43]Being angry with what is wrong and then wanting it to be corrected is one thing.

[00:31:47]That's necessary.

[00:31:49]But being impatient with with things and expecting miracles overnight and therefore being extremely volatile without any deep reflection is another thing.

[00:32:00]If it's the former, if it's a signal to the political system that you must correct yourself, it's a very good thing.

[00:32:06]If it's the latter, you want immediate short-term dividends instantly. You want miracles to happen. That's a very dangerous trend.

[00:32:14]So, it may well indicate that because I don't think anybody seriously expected Stalin to lose.

[00:32:19]I don't think anybody seriously expected both DMK and ADMK to be thrown in the at least I don't want to say thrown in the dustbin, but to both of them lose comprehensively. It's unexpected. So, that shows a very high degree of volatility therefore beware political parties. Don't take yourselves for granted.

[00:32:35]There's a lot of anger mounting even when there is economic growth, for instance, in in uh Tamil Nadu, there's economic growth.

[00:32:42]In Tamil Nadu, last year economic growth was 11% 10.88% or something, which is pretty good growth by any standard.

[00:32:50]Tamil Nadu has the highest organization of India among major states. It has the most vibrant manufacturing sector with a lot of employment generation.

[00:33:00]And Tamil Nadu has pretty good social indicators.

[00:33:04]Strong entrance political parties with all the strengths and the negatives.

[00:33:09]The vote buying, other things, they're all there. And yet, both the traditional parties were thrown out.

[00:33:17]And that's actually quite amazing. That means people are increasingly restive.

[00:33:20]The problem is much bigger. It's not about whether the person is legitimately elected or not. If indeed election is rigged, there is no way Vijay could have won.

[00:33:30]Or his party could have won.

[00:33:32]So, if anything, that proves that elections are not rigged. It's all a myth.

[00:33:37]You're taking people for granted, or you are arrogant and give yourself the power to decide what will happen automatically.

[00:33:43]Or you are saying that anybody but me getting elected is illegitimate.

[00:33:47]These are dangerous arguments in a democracy.

[00:33:50]So, then let's come back to this debate about democracy, sir.

[00:33:54]If the primary opposition argument is that election itself, the act itself is uh conducted by fraudulent means. And this is not a legitimate like you talked about legitimacy of the decision. The decision itself is not legitimate.

[00:34:08]Where do you see the political discourse, at least in the north of India, going?

[00:34:12]It's a very dangerous trend.

[00:34:15]Right now, it doesn't have much credence, this argument. People don't really care, and they seem to be ignoring it, which is good.

[00:34:21]But you can't be complacent.

[00:34:24]In a democracy, unless the players accept the rules of the game, and unless they humbly accept the verdict of the people if you either question the wisdom of the people in making an electoral choice or if you question the very electoral process and therefore pretend that is the cause of somebody's getting victory.

[00:34:48]That's a very dangerous trend.

[00:34:49]Because today I think the system can withstand that.

[00:34:53]For instance a party that gets into office let us say has enough party strength.

[00:35:01]Has popular leaders.

[00:35:03]Has substantial popular support very demonstrable manner.

[00:35:08]Even if the other party which is illegitimate in the election process it does everything possible to delegitimize it they can withstand it.

[00:35:17]But tomorrow a situation may come when it's not that simple.

[00:35:21]Take Vijay's party in Tamil Nadu.

[00:35:24]If the opponents of Vijay they are determined to make his government paralyzed.

[00:35:30]And use the street as a mechanism to to end the government.

[00:35:35]Probably Vijay's party does not have the carders to be able to withstand any DMK and ADMK.

[00:35:41]If therefore the street decides not the ballot paper or the EVM or the people's mandate on the day of election then you're no longer talking of an electoral democracy. You're talking about the street anarchy.

[00:35:55]Two.

[00:35:56]Even if you're today popular whichever be the government state or national a government that is always popular is probably not governing very well.

[00:36:05]Because in democratic politics particularly in poor countries there is a clash between the short-term gain that you give to people the inducements, the short-term welfare and the long-term good you promote.

[00:36:18]In order to promote long-term good for an individual, a family or a country there's always a short-term sacrifice involved to some extent.

[00:36:27]And nobody wants short-term sacrifice.

[00:36:28]For instance, let us say globally oil prices are rising.

[00:36:33]It's now doubled and maybe tripled.

[00:36:36]If you want to reduce the budget deficit, if you want to make sure that the people's habits get better, you don't unnecessarily consume fuel which is imported at a very heavy cost, you have to increase the price.

[00:36:51]You have to let the market price prevail.

[00:36:54]That's necessary for the country.

[00:36:56]But is there one consumer in India who would be very happy to pay more price at the gas station?

[00:37:02]Ideally you would like everything free, right?

[00:37:04]So government is going to be unpopular for doing the right thing.

[00:37:07]Supposing you use that as an opportunity to undermine the legitimacy of the government, that day once you challenge the legitimacy of the government, the governments cannot survive.

[00:37:17]Even a popular government with harder support cannot survive.

[00:37:21]That is when the country is going to be in mortal danger.

[00:37:24]So if you don't nip this in the bud, this kind of a rhetoric, if you don't as a culture wake up and recognize the potential dangers that we're putting our system to, one day it could be uncontrollable.

[00:37:38]But equally, the election commission and the constitutional authorities must do everything possible to enhance the credibility.

[00:37:45]I have no doubt, given the scrutiny and the judicial scrutiny subsequently and the very public process, that the election commission is doing a a fair job.

[00:37:54]But that they're doing a fair job is not enough.

[00:37:57]Probably there's one fault with the current election commission.

[00:38:00]It is that they're impatient.

[00:38:03]They're not reaching out to the people in a proactive manner, in a humble manner, and in a repetitive manner. Because the same issues come back again and again and again. EVMs have been settled for 100 times, but still people make the point. You should never lose your patience.

[00:38:20]As the constitutional authority's a your to place it before the people again and again and again and again.

[00:38:27]Be persuasive, be truthful, be open, be transparent, be humble above all.

[00:38:32]If you don't have that attitude, you'll antagonize people. People think that there is something that is wrong.

[00:38:38]You take the UPSC. In my judgment, it's doing a grand job.

[00:38:42]In a country like India, where people hanker after power to select IAS, IPS, and other officials of the country, and then there is no credible allegation so far of any mischief there. No selection process can be perfect, but it's as good as it's humanly possible in a complex country like India. Unlike state state state public service commissions in many cases, we know the the rot in many many states.

[00:39:06]Now, you have to be humble.

[00:39:08]You must never rest on your laurels. You must always open yourself up to scrutiny and explain to people to the extent it's explainable. There are some things you cannot explain or should not explain, particularly in the selection process.

[00:39:19]But you must be open to that.

[00:39:22]Finance Commission.

[00:39:24]You remember before the Panagariya Commission gave its report, the north, south, and what tax-paying countries and benefiting benefiting states, all kinds of things.

[00:39:34]But the Commission handled with great aplomb, great humility and sensitivity.

[00:39:39]Be patient.

[00:39:41]They didn't make loud arguments or dismissed even irrational points made. They came out with a with a reasonable formula that both the north and the south can live with, and that's it. Hardly any murmur of protest.

[00:39:54]We are a very diverse, noisy, complicated, and largely uninformed democracy. Let's be truthful.

[00:40:02]It requires a lot of patience to make it work.

[00:40:05]The political institutions, political parties, legislatures, organs of state, the constitutional authorities, all of us must play their role.

[00:40:16]Unless there is willing compliance, unless there's respect for rules or rule of the rules of the game, even if I am disappointed, I will not challenge the rules of the game unless that self-restraint is exhibited.

[00:40:28]A democracy can easily be derailed.

[00:40:29]Remember, there's no democracy like India.

[00:40:32]22 officially recognized languages, every conceivable ethnicity, religion, other diversities, caste, of course, the the most important diversity in the country. We are somehow putting it together thanks to the freedom struggle, thanks to the efforts of the statesmen and leaders and political parties and governments and constitutional authorities of the past 75-80 years.

[00:40:55]Let's not take it for granted.

[00:40:57]Thank you, sir. That was Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan bringing much-needed nuance and realism to this whole debate of vote chori in India. Thank you.