Locking Reform out of Scottish Politics

Added: 2026-05-21

[00:00:00]All Hollywood parties talk about how they can work better together except for one except for reform. He wants to see them locked out of the governance of Scotland. What do you think Brian?

[00:00:10]I think that John Swinney talked to Trump. He would talk to Putin. I'm quite sure he would talk to China. It feels entirely disrespectful and actually anti-democratic not to involve all of the political parties. Ben McPherson So let's be just very clear to reiterate again that what the first minister said was that he absolutely hears the people who voted reform because of anger, frustration, scorned the word that's been used by an audience member tonight and and by others in the election. So we we absolutely hear that. There's also an element of people who voted for reform and who are in reform who have repugnant views in in in my opinion about ethnic minority communities. And therefore as a social democratic center-left party we are very are very opposed to those positions of reform. And we are not therefore going to engage in talks about being in government or how how we we run an administration with a party like that. Reform will still of course participate in the parliamentary proceedings. They'll they'll get questions. They'll be on committees.

[00:01:20]Ministers will have to answer to them.

[00:01:22]So the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland who voted reform will will be heard in the parliament, will be part of the process.

[00:01:32]So the first minister is not being anti-democratic whatsoever. He's just saying when it comes to being in government we are not interested in engaging with reform. I'd go further.

[00:01:41]>> Angela Ross >> He's being autocratic. He's being very controlling. He's not respecting the people who have voted >> How is that autocratic? He's engaging with all the other parties. Stop her.

[00:01:50]You're controlling these people.

[00:01:52]>> controlling anything. 380,000 more than 380,000 people voted for reform. We were second on the regional list in terms of vote share and this gentleman has put it perfectly clearly.

[00:02:04]It is anti-democratic. It's not right.

[00:02:06]It's not representing the people. We also need to serve in a government that's proportionally represented and have a consensus-based approach. How can we do that if they won't even talk to us?

[00:02:16]>> Can I just say though, I mean It's good Reform ran a campaign that was anti-SNP.

[00:02:23]So, you wouldn't you wouldn't go into any arrangement with the SNP anyway.

[00:02:27]>> Labour ran a campaign that were anti-SNP. I The Conservatives ran a campaign that were anti-SNP.

[00:02:34]That's what you do in politics. Well, well, there were there were a number of parties who ran campaigns that were anti-SNP and and and they weren't very successful, which was maybe something that they should consider and and perhaps put positive solutions to the Scottish people going forward rather than constantly being in >> lock voters out. They have a right to be represented.

[00:02:53]>> we haven't locked the voters out in any way. serve the people. They have a right to >> All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All All Reform have some views that we strongly disagree with and then and therefore and therefore we're we're not interested we're not interested in in any government talks with with yourselves and and that's our position.

[00:03:09]>> Let's find out what the people think. Uh man in the very back row with his hand up. Yeah, on you go. It's really frustrating listening to this conversation because you're talking about democracy and stuff and the point that Lorna's made is is disappointing here what Daniel said about not wanting another referendum. If the the parties just work together, we're talking about democratically working together in the parliament. If Reform wants their voice heard and you want to work with the SNP, why can't we just simply say, "Okay, we'll we'll we'll help you get over the line at Westminster." The referendum question, we can stop talking about every week and go back to the things that you've have been talking about for months about actually getting you know, things talk about policies more. We can get that done and stop the whole debate.

[00:03:57]Just Come on, we voted majority biggest MPs for independent pro-independence. Why can't you just accept that and then we can move on to it?

[00:04:07]>> promise we will talk about that here tonight. I I just want to keep the focus on reform and what place they have in Holyrood moving forward. Man with the glasses in the middle. Yeah, it was anti-democratic to kick Scotland out of the European Union, but it still happened.

[00:04:22]>> [applause] >> What's What's What's What's up next with regards to England showing its cards with regards to reform is taking us out of the Human Rights Act. That's next and that'll be anti-democratic as well. Thank you. Um one more woman on the very back row.

[00:04:43]Um there's clearly a lack of compromise and also collaboration within politics.

[00:04:48]Should we be looking at something like a citizens assembly to help look at the more nuanced things within our our lives going forward?

[00:04:54]Okay. Lorna Slater, um more people in Scotland voted reform than voted for the Scottish Greens. Is it undemocratic to uh uh lock them out of governance as John Swinney put it?

[00:05:07]I mean, whoever is the largest party is allowed to form a government and then they can invite other parties to participate in that as the SNP did with the Greens last time. The parliamentary process is about scrutiny of government and of course reform, like all the rest of us who are in opposition, will scrutinize that government. I think the idea about citizens assemblies is a really good one. We talked a little bit earlier about that that sort of financial challenges that we have in Scotland and one of the big solutions to that is to properly reform council taxes and property taxes in Scotland. But that is a difficult political conversation.

[00:05:39]So, a a citizens assembly where we all get together, put our politics aside, say, "Scotland, we've got a challenge.

[00:05:46]We need fair funding for our councils.

[00:05:48]We do need the wealthy to pay more.

[00:05:50]Council tax is not a fair tax in that way. And we do need enough money to run our public services to deal with those potholes, to deal with, you know, to deal with those local issues that really matter. And a citizens assembly is a good place to have that conversation because politicians, we have failed. We have failed to get that council tax properly reformed because it is such a difficult thing to do because even when you're trying to do something small like update the rates for non-domestic um taxes which the SNP government were trying to do, they get lambasted by every other party. Um so even making adjustments that are in line with existing policy, but just updating the figures is just about impossible. That's why the council tax reform has gotten stuck. So yes, the idea of citizens assemblies is a really good one to help make us all work together.

[00:06:33]>> is there is a citizens assembly. It's called the Scottish Parliament. That's not what that is.

[00:06:38]>> For for politicians to say, "We've had this thing for 30 years. It's failed.

[00:06:42]We'll take the salary, but we're going to give up and just can you please now now solve it?" What's required is is political leadership. And as I said earlier, you keep saying that everything should be free.

[00:06:54]The reality is is that taxes are already very high in Scotland.

[00:06:59]Spending is very high in Scotland. What Scotland needs is more wealth creation.

[00:07:04]It's got lots of politicians and many of the parties who are arguing about how to dis- dispense loads of other people's money. It needs to start generating more wealth.

[00:07:13]>> But that wealth has disappeared since COVID.

[00:07:15]>> [applause] >> Since COVID, since COVID, the very wealthy have made out like bandits. So there is wealth creation. It's just that the very richest are getting richer at a fantastic at an increasing rate while the rest of us are really struggling.

[00:07:29]And that's the thing. Unless you Unless you tax that very wealthy, unless you put that money back into the system, when when they talk about growth, they're talking about letting the richest disappear off into the wealthy distance. You have to tax that money back into the system right We're getting far away from the question here. Ian Martin, is it disrespectful to lock Reform out of the democratic process in Scotland? They're not locked out of the democratic process. We're just saying we're not going to government with them.

[00:07:55]It's quite different. Well, very different.

[00:07:57]>> I think that I think the mistake that I think the mistake that the First Minister has made, I mean I I agree. No no one's suggesting that the the the SNP is going to do a deal with Reform and Reform are going to have ministers. But if the First Minister is saying there needs to be a conversation involving all the parties and listen listening to the voters, it's a kind of basic courtesy.

[00:08:19]I would have thought considering how many people voted for Reform they should at least have that conversation with Malcolm Offord on an equal basis with all the other with all the other parties.

[00:08:27]>> What's wrong with that?

[00:08:29]Well, it's just discussions in the coming days are about how an administration would be formed, what what arrangements there might be for passing legislation and and considering different options.

[00:08:40]>> shouldn't Reform be part of that conversation?

[00:08:42]>> And and we we have very very different views from Reform as as parties, the SNP and Reform.

[00:08:50]And we just can't see a scenario where we would work together. That doesn't mean that Reform won't be part of the legislative process or the parliamentary scrutiny process. Of course they will.

[00:09:00]And I mean what I would say is that one party leader has already said he won't take up the meeting with the First Minister and that's Russell Findlay. So I mean I'm not even sure Malcolm Offord would have would have wanted such a meeting. Daniel Johnson, would should Scottish Labour be part of that conversation when one party is effectively locked out of it? I think there are some problems with the way Reform does their politics.

[00:09:25]You know, I I think politics is about having discussion, debate, disagreement, yes, but I think some of the things that that that that Reform have been doing in terms of I think really trying to channel hatred. I think bringing up the loyalty of Anas Sarwar during the Hamilton by-election, which they then repeated and withdraw from. Saying that the children of migrants should be deported. I I find that really troubling. Now, I I think and I think until Reform I think withdraw and retract some of those things, I think it's very difficult to engage with them.

[00:10:00]And what about their voters? Because you end up with as many seats as they have. So, what about those 360, 370,000 Scots that voted? So, but there there there clearly needs to be engagement. I mean, I was talking with Angela before we we we we came on. I mean, I think there is really important that there there's dialogue. I think though I would just like Reform to reflect on their position and and and and withdraw from it. Because until I think I cuz I think that sort of incitement, I think that the whipping up of hatred really can't form part of our democracy. I think all parties have their dirty laundry. We don't want to go through their dirty laundry. I think everyone's sick of that. I think everybody here Do you agree that children of migrants should be deported? And do you do you disagree with questioning Anas Sarwar's loyalty to Scotland? I don't think people want to go over the same thing again. But do you agree with those things? I think this is really interesting because now now that Reform have MSPs, they're going to come under the spotlight and scrutiny in a way that they haven't. And I'll be honest, I think the way that Reform have pretended that they're a part of the working class, pretended that they're there for the people, pretended that they're this force for for for progress.

[00:11:14]The the it's it's all been a kind of PR exercise, too often assisted by some in the media, if I may say so. And I think it's it's good that the parliament will now be able to also scrutinize Reform and will