Was the CIA operating in Chihuahua without the Mexican government's knowledge? | DW News

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[00:00:01]Is the CIA involved in drug bust operations in Mexico unknown to the Mexican government? Well, the arrows are certainly pointing that way. Mexico's president, Claudia Shanebomb, is demanding answers after two US officials were killed in a car crash as they returned from the destruction of a drug lab across the border in Chihuahua State. Now, according to US media reports, they were CIA agents, but that's not been officially confirmed.

[00:00:29]Authorities in Chihuahua have released this video of the sophisticated lab.

[00:00:33]They say it was being used to make meth and fetamine, a highly addictive stimulant that's much stronger than cocaine. Its use is surging in the United States. Shane Balm confirmed that the Mexican army led the tear down operation, but she said it was not aware of the presence of US officials, nor was her government informed.

[00:00:57]Now, that's a lot to unpack here and to help us, we're joined by Alex Gonzalez Ormarod, a journalist based in Mexico City. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us, Alex. First up, what can you tell us about the raid that preceded this crash?

[00:01:11]>> Thank you, Hannah. Well, it's a raid that looks normal if you're used to broad-based US cooperation, but of course, the issue is Mexico has a turbulent history when it comes to US intervention and even US presence of drug enforcement and foreign operatives.

[00:01:27]What we had on the face of it was two state uh operatives. So, that's two people from Chihuahua State, not at the federal level apparently, which is an important distinction. and then two people from the CIA. All four of them unfortunately seem to have died in an accident.

[00:01:45]>> And are there more details about how the crash itself actually happened?

[00:01:52]>> It's it's always dodgy when we're talking about cartel operations, but in this case, it really does seem like it was an accident. It's a very very difficult state to get around. It's a massive state. Mexico's biggest. It's about, you know, the size of Germany, uh, more or less. And it is a big state with pretty rough uh communications and infrastructure, very winding roads. And so I'm not surprised that going out into the field to find these very remote drug labs, something like this could have happened.

[00:02:25]>> And now the Mexican president says that the federal government was unaware that US agents were operating alongside Mexican security forces. Let's take a listen to what she said there.

[00:02:40]We have checked whether the foreign ministry, the defense ministry or the security ministry were informed and they were not informed of these individuals participation.

[00:02:50]Second, we do not accept participation on the ground in operations. We have made that very clear to the United States government and we have other forms of collaboration and cooperation.

[00:03:03]Now, Alex, do you think that this is actually believable?

[00:03:08]It's got various levels to it. So in terms of the rhetoric, it's consistent, right? Mexico legally and also politically does not accept foreign and especially United States intervention on their sovereign affairs. Mexico is very much, no matter the party, obsessed with its own sovereignty. However, what I think is fascinating is the history of the CIA in Mexico and the very close relationship that the Mexican government at the very highest level that is the president has had with the CIA secretly but always ongoing from the 1960s onwards.

[00:03:44]>> Now, Shane Bal says that the state of Chihuahua didn't have the authority to cooperate with US officials without federal permission. What does that say about the coordination or perhaps lack thereof between the two levels of government?

[00:04:00]>> So, a lot of the time this has to do with the political situation in Mexico.

[00:04:05]The state of Chihuahua is run by an opposition party, the right-wing pan party, and the governor there is often at odds with the president. Uh what you tend to get as well beyond party political differentiations is the fact that states will often ask for help.

[00:04:21]This is how the drug war started actually. A state asking for federal intervention because they didn't feel they were able to cope with the cartels.

[00:04:28]Uh and this tends to be the case. But because it's a different party, it feels pretty likely that the governor took matters into her own hands and especially given the United States is well known for negotiating on their own, not only with other state governments if it's convenient to them, but with the cartels themselves behind the Mexican government's back.

[00:04:51]Okay, so let's talk about that then the role of the US in all of this. Let's hear again from Shane Bal first.

[00:05:02]>> This has to be clarified.

[00:05:05]The foreign ministry sent a letter to the US ambassador requesting that all the information be provided saying that this is not part of the security protocol we have agreed upon nor of the understanding we have with them. in asking that all the information be provided.

[00:05:22]It is an issue of national security and sovereignty. So what is happening is not a minor matter.

[00:05:30]>> So so far Shane Balam has managed to maintain cordial relations with the US and the Trump administration. Do you think that this incident could upend that?

[00:05:41]>> Unlikely. There are two options here.

[00:05:43]The first option is Clarish was telling the truth. She had no idea. It would be the worst of all cases because what would happen is she'd have to talk to the government of the United States and then they'd have to figure it out probably privately. But to be honest, Mexico depends on a lot of US uh uh security and intelligence operations on Mexican soil or above it through uh drone surveillance. That's how they got Elmeno, the recent drug uh lord that they captured very dramatically or and killed a few uh a few weeks and months ago. The issue of course is there is a world it isn't completely uh ridiculous to think that actually Claudia Shamorn did know about this but it is all to all intents and purposes illegal for this to have not gone through the proper channels but of course it's the most effective way of getting through it.

[00:06:30]Now, I think number one is the most likely answer, especially given who they were with, that is the state troopers rather than federal forces. But that doesn't mean that the federal government is often at odds with what it can and can't say. A wonderful anecdote to me is that back in the day when the Mexican presidents were literally CIA informants, their biggest attack to people on the left and the right was calling them CIA puppets while they were being CIA puppets.

[00:06:58]>> Wow, that's quite a parallel there.

[00:06:59]Well, journalist Alex Gonzalez, thank you so much for all of those details and for breaking it down for us. Great to have you with us here on DW.

[00:07:07]>> Thank you, Hannah.

[00:07:09]>> Let's bring in Vander Felbach Brown, whose work at the Brookings Institution has covered the illicit drug trade in the US and Mexico, the criminal networks involved, and the policies used to deal with them. Vanda, thank you so much for joining us here on DW. Now, the meth lab targeted in this raid, it looked pretty big. How important are labs like this for Mexico's drug cartels?

[00:07:32]>> Well, the labs are places where the cartels produce the vast majority of synthetic drugs that heads to the United States. They are important. Um, this is a vital source of income for the groups and their purpose of existence. Although they are not the only uh economist these days at all in which the criminal groups are involved. They have diversified into very many other economies. The problem with targeting the labs is that they are quite easily recreated. They are often rather primitive um setups that uh takes few days for a criminal group to recreate. But the solution is not just to let the labs be.

[00:08:15]Obviously, one wants to both destroy the labs and gather as much evidence to get um information about the network and be able to act against the network.

[00:08:26]>> And who are these meth labs then actually supplying? Is it mainly a US market?

[00:08:33]>> It is predominantly a US market. And one of the um uh really terrible things that we have been seeing with methamphetamine is that the lethality the potency has significantly increased. Although it's not as potent as fentanyl, which is still the synthetic opioid, the drug that's killing the vast majority of Americans who die of drug overdose, the meth labs have become um much more important. But the Mexican cartels are also setting up meth operations in different parts of the world in South Africa in Europe uh for the purpose of developing meth lab meth markets around the world and they are actively exporting methamphetamine into Australia and New Zealand competing with Chinese criminal groups there. So in this particular lab the odds are that the products were heading to the United States. Um but it's also conceivable that um this could be partway uh production that ultimately heads to Asia for example.

[00:09:37]>> Okay. Wow. And and why is this meth being made in Mexico and in those other countries that you just mentioned and not in the US? I mean is it simply down to better law enforcement in the US or or are there other factors involved?

[00:09:51]>> No, it's absolutely down to better law enforcement. So you know 10 15 20 years ago in the 1990s early 2000 you had meth production in the United States and that was supplying the US market. Uh this had Mexican criminal group involvement but it also had other domestic actors that were not linked uh to uh Mexican criminal groups. And the United States invested strongly into suppressing methamphetamine production to drive down use. At the time, uh, the methamphetamine wasn't as lethal as it is today, but it's still a very bad substance use disorder, very bad addiction, uh, that causes high levels of morbidity, all kinds of really difficult um, physiological illnesses that are associated with use and no easy treatment to get out of meth addiction.

[00:10:44]And once the US suppressed production at home, it moved to Mexico for the US market. But the big development really is that over the past five years or so, there is very active effort by the Mexican criminal groups to expand the markets around the world to supply Australia and New Zealand as some of the most lucrative markets, but also to develop markets in Europe um in the Middle East. Um at the minimum uh they are establishing um the methampetamine productions in Europe, in Africa, uh in other parts of the world.

[00:11:19]So this is clearly a problem that is growing then. But what does this specific incident reveal about the current state of cooperation between the US and Mexico when it comes to fighting the drug cartels?

[00:11:32]>> Well, uh the issue has become highly contested um because of the revelations that two CIA agents uh died um in the convoy that was um heading from um the meth lab. Now there is a lot of conflicting um suggestions uh as to whether they are part of a training mission associated with taking down uh the methampetamin lab. Some are uh some authorities Mexican authorities are now saying that they were not part of even a training role but instead they were being picked up along the way from a training role. So there is clearly a lot of confusion and lot of um challenge in disclosing correct information and the national government of um Mexico or the Claudia Shinebomb administration has uh really made a lot of political hay out of the presence of the two CIA agents saying that this requires inquiries suggesting that their presence was unconstitutional that the Mexican government at the national level was not aware of this cooperation um really raising problems about um uh such a role, such a present. And you know there are many reasons why she could be reacting that way. Um one of which is um a strong effort by the Mexican government to set and reinforce red lines that Mexico will not tolerate US military actions regarding the cartels. Something that the Trump administration has been raising frequently. Um but I think it's very useful and very important to have US law enforcement agents as well as in my view intelligence agents in Mexico to be providing as much on the ground collaboration to the Mexican government because during the previous administration of President Andres Manuel Lopez Orador uh the power uh of the criminal groups grew enormously and the government response was often meager and inadequate.

[00:13:39]Now certainly there is better cooperation between uh the government of Mexico under the uh presidency of Claudia Shinbau. Uh but nonetheless um uh one of the important issues is whether US law enforcement agents will be able to be on the ground and in what roles. And uh her response here I think risks reinforcing the voices in the United States who call for a military action and they are in the Trump administration. They will say see the Mexican government is not willing to even do partnership that is not a military partnership. Uh so the only option that um the US government has is to resort to military action which would be a grave error but um in US policy and it would really poison uh relations. Uh but I think that the reaction to the revelations of the CIA agents dying um from the Mexican government risks this um kind of response from the US government.

[00:14:41]>> Okay. Well, there's clearly a lot going on here. I want to just zoom out a little bit because the war on drugs always seems to focus on the source, the cartels, but not on the end consumer.

[00:14:51]Why do you think that is?

[00:14:54]>> Well, I don't think that is a completely fair characterization and it also varies around the world. I mean certainly the Biden administration invested heavily in focusing on um trying to expand availability of access trying to expand harm reduction policies something that the United States historically really did not invest in sufficiently uh as well as focused on prevention. This was not at the exclusion of law enforcement operation. uh there were strong um e efforts to um engaged uh with the government of Mexico but they were failing the the LZO Brador administration just decimated cooperation was not interested in it and did not take adequate action domestically. Uh so I think there was a real need uh to uh get better cooperation from the Mexican government.

[00:15:45]Uh the problem now is however that the Trump administration has essentially thrown out um the domestic uh treatment harm reduction um aspect of policy which is vital significantly shrunk resources and funding for that resurrected obstacles barrier for uh people who have substance use disorder or who have mental health um illnesses that are associated in comorbidity with substance use disorder.

[00:16:15]to access treatment. The to get insurance for treatment and has supercharged only the supply side of policies and militarized them really in ways that we have not seen um even in the the height of um supply side policies such as in the 1980s in the United States with attacks uh on the cocaine boats for example and with other dimensions of policy. the shield of America that demands from Latin American countries that they're militarized, their counternarcotics approaches, their approaches to the cartels.

[00:16:52]So, do you think that uh I mean several US administrations have declared war on drugs and but in your view, do you think it should be seen as a war or would a different approach be more effective?

[00:17:07]>> Well, it is not a war uh or at least not a war. um in the way that we conceive of military on military engagement. Uh it is law enforcement operation and um it needs to be a law enforcement strategy as well as a public health strategy. It needs to be a combination of the two.

[00:17:25]Now the law enforcement component is inescapable and it is also true that some of the criminal groups such as the Mexican cartels are um extremely violent and police forces in Latin America for example including in Mexico are overwhelmed uh by the violence brutality of the criminal groups as our local communities. So in some places there might well be need for the US military to be engaged. I also believe that um there is a role for the US military to be engaged in intelligence gathering in interdiction operations. The question is how one goes about that and is it better to board a boat and seize uh the drugs on it, collect evidence, arrest and indict individuals or to be um simply immediately engaging in a lethal action that is legally problematic or illegal that is questionable? um with respect to its effectiveness and that deprivives uh forces of um intelligence. So you know I think that the the rhetoric of war or not war is not very useful and it easily becomes kind of on and off switch. The more important issue is what is the content of supply side policies? What is the content of treatment approaches? how to design them to be effective legal uh and maximize the well-being of communities of of users and protect against vicious crime.

[00:18:59]>> Well, I think that's a great conclusion.

[00:19:00]Vander Felb from the Brookings Institution. Thank you so much for all of your analysis there.

[00:19:06]>> Thank you.

[00:19:08]>> We also want to hear what you think. Can Trump's aggressive drug policies actually work? Or will they fail like the so-called wars on drugs of the past?

[00:19:17]And how should the US and Mexico work together against the drug cartels? Let us know in the comments. And if you like this video, please hit that like button.

[00:19:25]And if you haven't already, don't forget to subscribe. Thank you so much for watching.