The Xanadu Review: Episode 43- Virginia Karnstein

追加: 2026-05-27

[00:00:10]Hey, hey, Okay, so everybody, thank you for coming back to the Xanadoo Review. My name is Preer John Anders, your host. Um, and as always, you can just call me DJ. Well, today with me I have uh Virginia Karnstein who is a writer here on Substack and she covers covers a number of interesting topics. Um so Virginia, if you want to go ahead and introduce yourself to the audience and kind of your beat so to speak.

[00:01:08]>> Gotcha. Yeah, thank you. Um so my beat is whatever comes into my mind while I am unable to sleep pretty much. Uh, I'm getting my PhD in English, but I uh don't really write about just like literary stuff all that much. Um, at least not purely literary. And I teach at my uh synagogue, so I do a lot of sort of religious education stuff in real life. And that's also a main thing that I write about as well. Um, yeah, I would say my beat tends to be uh nerdy stuff to do with religion. uh religion, literature, vampire stuff. I do vampire studies academically.

[00:01:50]Um and yeah, that I think that's it's difficult to summarize a beat because I have definitely not specified the topic of my blog basically.

[00:02:00]>> No, I get that. I feel like um I'm about two and a half years in and now I feel like I finally kind of honed down like all right, I should focus on these things and try to have, you know, a quote unquote brand.

[00:02:12]But, you know, it's something you figure out as you go.

[00:02:15]>> But, no, it's um it's part of the reason I like reading your writing. It's it's a little all over the place, but in a good way. Um I think eclectic is the term you would use if you're being um >> you know, being being flattering. But first of all, I would like to give you the chance to formally um debunk any rumors that you are in fact a vampire as you have written about in the past.

[00:02:37]>> Yes. So, um, there's now published evidence that nobody has proven I'm a vampire. Um, >> so the hundreds of years of accusations are false.

[00:02:47]>> They're absolutely false. Sometimes I slip up and talk about past stuff as if I were there. That's just me, you know, uh, being absent- minded while typing.

[00:02:56]And, uh, there none of the portraits that allegedly portrayed me hundreds of years ago are real. Uh, you can't, nobody has them because they were destroyed. So, they were definitely not me. and you can't, you know, you can't look at them anymore to say they were.

[00:03:10]Um, but yeah, I was really glad that, you know, I wrote a joke post about that on my blog and a a literary uh what's it? The jokes review picked it up >> and so that it's published evidence now.

[00:03:25]>> Yeah.

[00:03:25]>> Or the thought that was >> Thank you. Yeah. It's that's like a spillover of real life stuff onto the blog because um that's like a running joke among people in real life, including people I don't even know that well. It's just like me being the vampire professor at my university is like, yeah, sometimes a student will be like in the elevator with me. They'll be like, "Wait, are you the vampire professor?" I'm like, "Yeah, >> very nice."

[00:03:51]>> But of course, you know, they haven't proven that I'm actually a vampire professor. I just teach about vampire stuff. And you know, the the beauty of that type of thing is you have the tendency to outlive your critics. So, you know, it's it's a problem that'll kind of naturally solve itself, I think.

[00:04:04]>> Exactly. Yeah. The Van Halings are mortal.

[00:04:09]>> Well, Hugh Jackman.

[00:04:11]>> Yeah.

[00:04:12]>> To be DBD.

[00:04:14]>> He definitely seems immortal. I mean, it's possible that he's a vampire. I feel like I could flip the accusation around at the Van Hellings once in a while.

[00:04:22]>> Every accusation is a confession, as they say. Um, >> so to slightly um, switch gears a little bit, there's a number of different things I want to talk to you about since um, you're pretty much everything you write about kind of tickles my fancy, so to speak. Um, like the esoteric religious stuff, um, like the like the apocalyptic traditions, you know, Jewish versus Christian. I think we'll have a lot of interesting stuff to talk about there, but I think maybe one of the the best entry points to start talking about your work and get the conversation flowing is you recently had a um a a piece and forgive me I'm forgetting um the exact phrasing is about you know something like in defense of loving men or on loving men and it's >> in the the gender wars space. It's uh it was an interesting piece and I liked it.

[00:05:13]Um and I thought it would be worth talking about since you know you describe yourself as a you know former andor recovering misandress. Um, and I I appreciate your perspective on that because there's a lot of um, you know, shout out to, um, you know, I guess I can say now, friend of the show, um, Uritysy who was on the show a little while back. Um, and I kind of said to her like, it's not that hard to get, you know, the Pikmi feminist, um, or sorry, the Pikmi anti-feminist. It's not that hard to find or, you know, the the reverse thereof. It's not that f hard to find somebody who is, you know, performatively anti the thing. But you have like a an interesting and nuanced worldview and I'm I'm interested if you want to talk about that article andor like how you your journey there because I think um it's very common for people to get stuck in those misinterest or misogynist online spaces and just like never get out of the dark forest so to speak.

[00:06:11]>> Yeah, absolutely. I think it can form sort of a schema for people's lives that it's just really hard to shake. Um, yeah. So, I think starting with the story would probably be useful.

[00:06:21]Um, I just used to be absolutely terrified of men. It wasn't just like a a political hatred. It was mostly like anxiety. Like I was just really afraid talking to a guy that he was just going to like attack me or whatever. And I think that that anxiety sort of sprouted into politics. But yeah, so I um my introduction to weird internet activity was founding my cult when in middle school and then >> put a pin in that.

[00:06:53]>> I want to go back to that because I hadn't heard that story, but go on.

[00:06:56]>> Yeah. And so then I I got into like several uh strange bedfellows of ideologies. So I was part of the alt light when that was like a thing. So, for those unfamiliar, there was like the more famous alt-right, which was more like white nationalist, and then there was the alt- light that was just more libertarian and not so focused on like white identity politics.

[00:07:20]>> I feel like they wouldn't be as welcoming of you.

[00:07:22]>> No, definitely not. And so, I was into that. Like, it was pretty far right. I was like less into the libertarian and more into like the fascist side of things. Um, and I was a misinterest at the same time. So, I was in like these extreme misinterest Facebook groups >> and these far-right spaces, you know.

[00:07:44]>> Mhm.

[00:07:45]>> How I combined those things in my head.

[00:07:48]I don't really know. Uh, because the alt light tended to be quite anti-feminist.

[00:07:52]>> But yeah, so I was afraid of men. I came to to have like a distinctive loathing of them too. I think a long time ago I wrote about like if I were in the grocery store and I saw middle-aged guy or you know 45year-old dad of however many just standing there I would feel like this mix of fear and like disgust.

[00:08:14]And so it was it was like actual hatred.

[00:08:17]It wasn't just sort of like >> um ha men are trash which I object to as a sort of trend anyway. Yeah. So, I kind of cycled I've cycled through some strange ideologies over the years. And um more recently, there's been like a surge of sort of anti-feminist backlash, especially toward the sort of men are trash thing, which I think is deserves backlash. Um but as you said, a lot of the people in that sort of space are anti-feminist, and I'm not like I'm still a feminist. Uh even though sometimes a commenter or whatever will be like, "Oh, we got one away from feminism." And I'm like, "Oh, no you didn't, buddy."

[00:09:01]But I think that people who focus a lot on gender are in the best position to write about it in a nuanced way. The issue is just a lot of them are not really that opposed to misandry.

[00:09:12]Um, so I think like I've written a while ago that people who do gender studies type stuff are well positioned and responsible to also go against misjendy when they see it.

[00:09:24]>> Yeah. Well, I mean it's um I've heard it described as kind of like an inoculation. You like a little bit you want some of to develop a resistance. Um because you know cards on the table for me that was you know obviously not the Missandry side. you know, it was never like the misogyny extreme stuff. Like it was never really my bag. Like I feel like it missed me. Um cuz you know I'm I think I think I'm a little older than you. It was I was online on like you know internet forums and 4chan but that was before Gamergate and I just kind of aged out of 4chan and that was before >> what it became. Um, and you know, both a combination of like, you know, um, I have a personality type that I tend to blame myself before I blame other people's probably to a detriment. And, you know, um, not to toot my own horn, but I've never really had a problem with women in romantic senses, but I do there are people that I I also don't like the very performative like, you know, that um, how do I want to put it?

[00:10:33]there's like a very specific type of guy who's like, you know, oh well ladies, I'm a feminist and I could never understand these misogynist inc. Like, you know, I do understand them to a certain degree because, you know, it's it's somewhat of a a there for the grace of God go I thing >> because I think like, you know, >> I moved out of my parents house at like 18 basically as soon as I could. But without getting into too many specific biographical details, I think if I would have stayed with my parents house in in my parents' home for like two years after that, I would have never moved out and been like misogynistic basement baby. So, all that to all that having been said, I understand um where these >> we're, you know, on either side, I understand where it's coming from because we live in a very polarized time where like paradoxically like there's never been more gender equality, but like there's also never been more gender animosity. Um, and I think we're kind of in a period of renegotiation. And something I want to dig into more more broadly is like you see this um this bifurcation and this um this conflict between like the trad return people increasingly more women on that side too and like you know the the hyper progressive like burn it all burn gender and that down and I think it's like a a renegotiation process and I think people like you um or you know thrown at the show Rohan Ghostwin have like um a humorous and kind of um you know like kind of like you said there's that inoculation so you can be you can you know not fall over the um the stumbling blocks of like the very entrylevel you know misogyny/missandry but you can also see the bigger picture and you know be kind of a guide so that that's kind of why I appreciate your perspective there.

[00:12:24]>> Gotcha. Thank you. Yeah, I think I was actually thinking about this earlier today is like having been part of any sort of radical ideological space might actually be I think like you're saying an inoculation later where you know what it looks like from the inside, but you're not so turned off by an idea just because it's taboo or something anymore, which I think is actually good because like anti-misandry is taboo in some spaces.

[00:12:52]And so I think having that sort of radical inoculation earlier in life might have actually been helpful uh in a very strange way. You know, I wouldn't recommend I'm not going to go out and tell people like, hey, become far right online >> so that you can be better down the line.

[00:13:09]I think it takes a strong personality type to be able to or to be like well read uh and or have some sort of at the very least some kind of grounding so you don't taken in by these things cuz they're um >> it it's easy to do because like my my um equivalent is I used to be like a very like radical far-left person like you know Stalin did nothing wrong style >> um I I fell out uh yeah >> more or less yeah I was you so much of a tanky that I was like the things that Stalin did wrong was like not listening to Trosky enough.

[00:13:44]>> Um but that's neither here nor there.

[00:13:46]Point being I kind of I I fell out of that for a number of reasons, you know, and I but at the same time I wasn't one of those. Um I'm struggling to think of an example like Rob Henderson. I don't think he's one, but you know, there's like the archetype of like I I the left me. I didn't leave the left. and now you're um you know you have that kind of um suspect zeal of a recent comfort. So that was never my bag either. So I could never like wholeheartedly go into the far right. There were some people and writers who I found interesting and I still find interesting. But I I see like the the far right making a lot of the same mistakes that I saw the far left make and you know the Bernie movement, what have you. But um all that to say, you know, I kind of I kind of see your point.

[00:14:33]>> Yeah. And I mean, I wrote, uh something that got picked up by persuasion a little while ago about leaving the right. And I I do think that yeah, some of the same mistakes, the sort of cancelling mentality, um nitpickiness, identity focus, like a lot of these things are coming back and I think they're just they're easy temptations for people. But yeah, I did want to go back to something you mentioned about like being well read.

[00:15:04]Um, I do think honestly like in the either feminist, anti-feminist, whatever space, people don't actually read what they're talking about enough. And so I think that that like actually reading a book, >> it's not just touch grass, it's also like read a book >> um can like unironically dradicalize people because if you actually read feminist works, you you know, you understand what they're actually saying.

[00:15:29]And honestly, you know, you have to feminists don't do a great job of reading their opponents either. Uh, often >> like even really famous ones.

[00:15:41]>> I would agree. It's one of those things where I think you'll you'll get stuck up um stuck in caricatures and you know I wouldn't I I've you know I try to cuz you know for um for better or for worse like I'm very I'm just a very like curious person where I'll I'll read very widely and even things that like you know I think I've often joked like if you if you look at my my bookshelf like a it's a combination of my and my wife's books so she has like >> queer feminist literature which is part of the reason I was easy access like what would you call like lady style lit um know I'd say not poratively but you know there there's a type and then my my things I read are like pulp fantasy and like all manager of like host scaring literature of like Julius Eve next to Lennon and stuff like that just cuz like I'm I want to understand where it's coming from but I don't necessarily agree with it like you know I was the the kid who like read mine comp in um in high school, not because like I agreed with it or I thought there was, you know, Nazism or fascism was good, but like, oh, I'm not supposed to read this, so let me see what it says. And spoiler alert, it's not a very good book. Um, no, it's not >> Well, I mean, it's best understood as like a campaign trail book. It's not even like a >> this is what the Nazis believe platform position, but that's neither here nor there. But um point being I think it's difficult to especially like you know people just I feel like don't read as much in general. Um and you'll have like these caricatures of of whomever like that that famous me meme of like you know Nichze speaks of this. No he doesn't. Have you read Nichi? No. Um and >> yeah Nichch is difficult to read for sure. I'm in. But that's a >> it's a it's I think it's important to at least >> conceptually understand what you see as your ideological enemy.

[00:17:42]Even if you don't agree with like you should at least un if you're a right-wing person, you should at least understand what Marxism is conceptually.

[00:17:49]You don't have to read every volume of Dos Capatel, but you know, >> yeah, >> you can sound pretty silly if you don't even basically understand what it is.

[00:17:58]>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I Well, I think there's also ways of couching things. Like this is something I hammer on on my blog a lot is like if you're going to talk about Tik Tok feminists, like talk about them, you know, like specify what you're talking about because sometimes I'll see people say things about all of feminism, like oh, feminists think this. And I'm like maybe like 20% of them. I don't know.

[00:18:22]Have you met somebody in real life who has said this or like a significant figure in this movement who has said this or is this just like >> a handful of women on Tik Tok?

[00:18:33]>> But even then like I think you can say you can write something criticizing that handful of women on TikTok just specify that's what you're doing. You know it's like oh I've seen you know five clips like this on Tik Tok. Um, but don't just say it's like all of feminism or this is postmodern of feminism, whatever. Um, so I think sometimes, yeah, just like being more specific in what you're saying or writing kind of alleviates that because like if you haven't read Nietze, um, you can maybe say like I've heard Nietze cited in this way, you know, like I I just think being more specific in how we write and like intellectual humility in that way is good. Um because I've not read every feminist book ever, but like if I'm going to criticize >> some feminist has not read every feminist book ever.

[00:19:22]>> I know I'm the only one exposed as a the only feminist who has not read every feminist book ever.

[00:19:28]>> Yeah, I'm assu. Um but like if I'm going to criticize Cheryl Sandberg uh for Lean In, like I'm going to quote that book, you know? I'm not going to imply that she's the same as Judith Butler or Mary Daly or whoever.

[00:19:45]Yeah, I think there's a lot of intellectual diversity within, you know, the feminist movement and obviously any movement that um but the problem being that it's a like you said, you actually have to like read the book or the very least like I'm somebody who thinks like you you could watch like a talk by this person, watch a couple of their lectures and get the idea. You don't even necessarily even have to read >> the whole book, like get a good idea of it. But >> it's easier to have these narratives of, you know, your Jordan Peterson, you know, the postmodern feminist neo neo-Marxist, whatever. Yeah.

[00:20:25]>> And you're stringing together things that really don't have that much to do with each other. But, you know, that's that's the online ecosystem. And you know, I myself am um am guilty of this.

[00:20:37]I know in my own writing and something that I'm trying to move away from. You can, you know, I think at least to my credit, I'll read these books and I hope it's evident in what I write. But, you know, you can weave together all these different things as symptoms of a larger societal problem that are not necessarily connected. But, you know, there there's something to being able to craft a narrative that, you know, it's it's a fine line to walk though when you're >> when you're trying to have, you know, a larger point instead of just, you know, these six women on the internet annoyed me versus these six women on the internet annoyed me. And that is, you know, symbolic of the hey dialectic that Spangler speaks of of the fall of the West, you know, because there's maybe a healthy middle ground.

[00:21:24]>> I think there is. I think there's a there's definitely room for vibes based writing. I just think one has to phrase it specifically as like this is just like something I'm picking up on the like the metal plate in my head is picking up a vibration of this thing.

[00:21:40]Like you have to just be like more specific and not pretend you're doing something super empirical. Um, but this is just something like I, you know, I've been in university for a decade at this point, um, getting my degrees and whatnot.

[00:21:56]And so I'm really used to the idea that you have to make really couched, specific claims, but like understandably, most people don't have poor enough judgment to go to university for 10 years. So, you know, they're not um, they're not necessarily programmed in that way. In some ways, I think I I've almost gone too far and worried too much about like being hyper narrow and specific and stuff like that, but I mean, I can let loose a little on my blog.

[00:22:27]>> It it can definitely be a fine line to walk. Um at least definitely like the because I'm, you know, I'm not an academic and I've um I had a friend who said recently like, you know, you seem like you're a in another life you would have been, >> you know, an academic type. Um, but honestly I don't think I have the discipline. I'm very like catches catch can when I read about like history and philosophy. It's just like literally anything that like comes in front of me which I think is kind of um maybe a function of like interacting things you know primarily through the internet. Um and maybe if I was in academia I would have better discipline with it. But all that to say, like it's um it can be difficult because I feel like I'll I'll try to write things that are really um really well researched. I had a PS recent like I'm trying to read it like um loop in like Lovecraftian mythos and like the apocalyptic tradition and um Spangler and some other [ __ ] And like this took me a really long time to write. And then on the other hand, um the best performing thing I ever did on Substack was about like Kanye West, the devil and Hitler and just like the vibes of, you know, Hitler as being standin for the devil because we become so divor devoid and divorced from like the actual history of World War II that, you know, and then I I just basically like wrote that all almost all in one sitting vibes base because I was so frustrated. It's like, you know, I'm tired of trying to appeal to the algorithm. I'm going to quit if this doesn't do well. And then, of course, that does the best of anything I've ever written. So, >> yeah, that I mean some like like I don't I hope I don't post anything on my blog that I think is like bad. Um, early early blog post, I think one or two of them were bad and I actually have deleted a few because I thought they were just like I don't really want them up there anymore. Um, but yeah, like sometimes the loweffort uh at least a couple, you know, Substack like shows you your top posts or whatever and a number of them are like a lot lower effort than some that have just like nobody's looked at. um like a couple hundred words on um the lack of an off-ramp for mishandry performs way better than like an indepth uh thing about apocalyptic feminism, you know, and that that makes sense, but it's also kind of like really I don't know. I kind of wish like more effortful stuff would get more rewarded. Um but I think it's just like more rewarding to write to be fair. So >> yeah, it's I mean I think it's kind of an inverse thing where like you know you think you put all this work into it so people are going to care, but I think I mean I think that's just kind of the nature of I've heard content creators and you know writers of all stripes you know even like you know musicians like you know I put five minutes into writing this song and it became a mega hit and your opus nobody cares about. Um, but yeah, that I think that's unfortunately just kind of like the nature of of what you do here. And you have to resign yourself to like, all right, am I going to be, you know, a slop uh slot merchant and chase the trends? Um, or am I going to, you know, actually try to put effort in? And and I think, you know, for what it's worth, I think you have like a good um good approach to it. And it's, you know, maybe why I like your wedding.

[00:26:02]something I try to do is have something accessible from like pop culture or pop history as like an entry point to talk about something bigger, but you know, >> it's, you know, it's the nature of the game and I think, you know, people only have so much stomach for, you know, listening to us complain about it anyway. So, >> yeah, that's true.

[00:26:22]So, that having been said, um I feel like we kind of touched on although before we get to that, like what was the story about you starting a cult in middle school? I don't want to get too far away.

[00:26:33]>> Yeah. Okay. So, how about I wrote about this a long time ago and I'm I'm sort of scheming a much better post on it and I'm going to get rid of the old one, but basically what happened was uh I don't actually remember my motives for doing this. Like I don't if somebody asked me like why did you do this? I'm like I don't really know. Uh but do you remember like Omegle and Chat Roulette?

[00:26:57]>> Vaguely. Yeah. Uhhuh.

[00:26:59]>> I started to like joke with people on those platforms about like oh you know you're I can tell you're secretly like meant for a special destiny or whatever. And some of them believed it. And I was like, okay, where do I go from here? And so I would I started like all these social media spaces like Facebook groups primarily.

[00:27:25]Um, I never united all of them, which actually ended up being smart, as I'll get to, but um, yeah, so I like sort of stumbled into gathering all these gullible people online. And I had a core member or like a core group of I don't know, two dozen people or so, which is actually like pretty big for a I don't want to estimate how many people were in it. I don't know if there's still people technically in it, but yeah. So, there were these groups and I sort of just like cannibalized like Percy Jackson stuff I was into. Um, so there was like some Greek myth stuff going on and some uh semi-nostic I had some strange superstitions growing up that I had I worked in. Um, I didn't believe any of it. And I think to my credit, like I was in middle school, so I was an idiot. And also, I didn't have any way to like exploit them financially, even if it was bad to lie to them. Um, >> you done this in the time of Patreon.

[00:28:30]>> I know. Um, and then after I don't know 2 years or so, I was somebody was just like persistent enough and challenging like uh a member who was like deconverting back to Christianity and was like really annoying about it and I was like, you know, I'm done with this. And so I just like deleted all the groups and just like left. And that's why I'm like I don't know if there's still people in it because I didn't say, hey, this was all fake. Was this like other middle schoolers predominant?

[00:29:04]>> It was mostly middle-aged, mostly like older. Um, >> did they know you were a middle schooler?

[00:29:10]>> Yeah, I think Well, they knew I was young. I don't know if they knew my specific age, but like some of them I met um over webcam because it was I forget which one it was. Was it Omegle or chat real that was over webcam? Um, so yeah, it was a lot of a lot of people several times my age thinking I was uh the chosen child of Aphrodite, you know, and yeah, so that was the cult. And it's an interesting uh moment I think for me, but it it hasn't really come back to bite in any way, fortunately.

[00:29:49]>> Well, I feel like that's some ominous foreshadowing for sure.

[00:29:54]Yeah, this is like >> I started a cult. I just like then left them. You know what's the worst could happen? Well, just >> there's probably >> there's like some commune in like rural Alaska of my followers who are going to like kidnap. Well, >> yeah, maybe they think I died. I don't know.

[00:30:12]>> Well, that that stops cultists.

[00:30:14]>> I was going to say I mean that usually kind of strengthens it historically speaking. Um, but that's a fun story. I don't really have any comments on it, but you >> Yeah, I know. We all do fun stuff when we're when we're young, right?

[00:30:31]>> Yeah. This is like why I've joked about having the holy RZ um is just Yeah. Even in middle school, being able to convince people of that. I mean, even in real life, sometimes I'll talk very compellingly about or not compellingly, but like um what should we call it?

[00:30:50]Enthusiastically about my beliefs and people will start sort of like glomming on to me >> and then I'll have to like back out of the situation because I'm like I'm doing it again.

[00:31:01]>> Um >> starting by accident.

[00:31:04]>> Yeah, I think I you know I've done it on purpose. Maybe I'll do it by accident.

[00:31:08]And it like sounds arrogant to say, but like it just kind of is a fact of life.

[00:31:13]I don't know. Um the holy part is >> have those those um those personalities, I suppose. Well, you know, >> good on you for not using your powers um for evil on Substack.

[00:31:28]>> Yeah. Um, well, I actually like posting about the cult stuff because, well, for one thing, I find it funny, but also because if I start a cult, people can be like, "Hey, you wrote about being having a weakness for founding cults before.

[00:31:41]What are you doing?" You know, >> so it's kind of like an accountability thing.

[00:31:45]>> Yeah, exactly. I think it's sort of like a self-info hazard. It's like >> I'm putting out information to restrain myself.

[00:31:51]>> That's kind of why I um I faced doc recently. It's just like, you know, I'm still writing under a pseudonym, but it keeps me from being too weird, I think, if I, you know, what I write is attached to my face. Much in the same way. If people know that you've started a cult, you know, there people wait a second.

[00:32:09]>> Yeah. Only once, >> they'll pause a little more. Um, it hasn't Yeah, you would hope, but then there's always a way to twist it of like, no, it's real this time. I I like misinterpreted the divine signal last time.

[00:32:26]>> Well, that's um I don't know if you you read that piece that I did. It was called um Cthulhu shrugged and I kind of went through a number of different apocalyptic cults, but like I think the heavens gay people who didn't kill themselves, unless I'm thinking of something else like some of them still believe it. Um like those um the Anabaptists still exist today even though the apocalypse didn't happen.

[00:32:50]There are um >> many such cases unfortunately kind of >> I did read that post that was really cool >> and I've written about uh you know the follow followers of Shabites the um failed messiah of the 17th century >> they there's still some of them in Turkey you know 400 >> is that who one of the people you're referring to in your your cryptic post the other day about um people who uh Jews thought were the Messiah contemporariously in their time. So there are two who are like biblical and one later.

[00:33:27]>> Oh yeah. Uh no he Okay. So that um that was a note on subtag for those who haven't seen it which was uh three figures who a minority of Jews have believed to be God or a god. And I can reveal who those are now. Um okay >> one of them was Enoch. Some people believed that um there were two powers in heaven. So basically duotheistic and that he was he had become one of them.

[00:34:01]So that's the probably the strangest one but he's a character back in Genesis.

[00:34:06]Historically, there was a guy who claimed to be sort of like the successor to Shabbat Fi um Baria Russo and his followers thought that he was uh God incarnate or the God of Israel incarnate. And then the last one was the Lady Eva Frank who I quite like um who Jews have believed is God on earth.

[00:34:29]>> So those are those are the three um none of them as famous as Chapai I think.

[00:34:35]Mhm.

[00:34:35]>> Yeah.

[00:34:36]>> I feel like I've heard the name. Is that like um cobalistic type stuff or >> um which one?

[00:34:45]>> Uh the second one. What was that?

[00:34:49]>> Oh, Baria Russo.

[00:34:51]>> Yeah, perhaps.

[00:34:53]>> Yeah, he um the Sabbathian movement was very very based on uh sort of radical interpretations of Orthodox Kabala.

[00:35:03]So yeah, he was definitely very into it.

[00:35:07]Shai was too. Uh, but that's where they got a lot of their like interpretations of what God is and whatnot was from their um particular interpretations.

[00:35:19]Mhm. So, what kind of inspired your interest in like the um because it sounds like on one hand you're you're very, you know, devoutly Jewish, but on the other hand, you have um an interest in the the occult and esoteric. And that's again part of what I like because I I feel a similar way where like you know I was raised very Christian um not really currently but I think to a certain degree like that's a cultural heritage that doesn't go away even if you are not actively religious but the the occult and the esoteric is something that I've always found really interesting. um and the the various traditions, you know, um kind of like the the like the 18th and 19th century and I guess early 20th century like you know um uh what would you call it?

[00:36:08]Orientalist um occultism, the Christian, Jewish or Muslim traditions that have like you know kind of mix and match. Um I guess what what got you into it and what are some of the ones that you find most interesting? We can maybe trade notes on that one.

[00:36:24]>> Yeah. So, Judaism has a lot inbuilt, you know, cuz I think a lot of people think of Kabala as some sort of radical component of Judaism, whereas it's like the most orthodox part of it, like the most interested in Kabala are the most we' call like from or like pious orthodox Jews, you know, it's it's sort of woven into their lives. And so Judaism has uh I hate to I feel like religious scholars use this word in ways that annoy me, but like it has a rich, you know, selection of esoteric type stuff.

[00:37:02]Um but I I think it's uh when I was younger, it was certainly the sort of this is framed as like forbidden, you know, and like dark and secret. then you read it and it's like the dimensions of the temple or something and you're like okay >> but um I never really got into like the solommonic or the inocian um like I think I've stuck pretty much within Judaism.

[00:37:29]Uh certain controversial esoterics a certain controversial esoteric act has had a large impact on uh how I view the world and whatnot. So I kind of >> keep digging there because of I think I'm, you know, looking at things that are in some way helpful for learning about reality. But in other cases, I think it's just like uh cool. I don't know. I just sort of look at some paper on uh fake Jewish oultism and I'm just like, well, that's neat. I don't know. Um shallowly interested, but I think sometimes confessionally interested.

[00:38:09]Yeah.

[00:38:09]>> Yeah. Well, I think um like for me a lot of it like when I was um a young edgy teenager kind of not unlike yourself like uh the Satanist tradition like you have you know Lean Satanism versus um what's the other fella um like the Crowley um oh yeah the like the more um theistic side and you know and then you get into like some of the older like you you know, Roseianism and some of these other things that kind of use a kind of what would you say proprietary mix of like, you know, um, Jewish mysticism thrown in there. Muslim mysticism, like old paganism, stuff like that. Um, what's your face? Madame Bllovsky's type philosophy. Yeah, >> it's stuff that I find very interesting.

[00:39:02]Um, and as um I've said before, like I'm somebody who has like um what would you say? Like an academic interest in Judaism despite not being Jewish. Um because I remember one time, and forgive me if I'm misquing, you said, you know, you're Jewish, but you have like kind of a an interest or like Catholic disposition. I kind of feel like I'm I'm the same way. Like I um but from the opposite end, I'm Christian, but I have like a kind of Jewish disposition. um if you know if you'll outside of if you'll you know forgive some like playful anti-semitism with me being long- winded and you know talks too much um but I've always appreciated the Jewish tradition of being very historically grounded um >> which I feel like you know historically you know the Christian and western world has had but kind of moved away from in the 19th century and I appreciate I I wonder if you have any thoughts on and maybe this is going to get way too esoteric for the audience, but you know that's I hope while they're here, >> but I was reading um a couple different books last year. The the the famous one everybody's getting into right now is Dominion by Tom Holland and um another book called The Invention of the Jewish People by Schlommo Sand. And they both kind of touch on this like bifurcation of like the ancient Israelites being kind of like what we would today call like an indigenous people like a specific folk tradition and correct me if I'm wrong on any of this side from the Jewish understanding but just my understanding reading from um both Holland and Sand and just you know more broadly you know you had this indigenous um religious tradition um and then post Babylon Balonian exile. Um there's um maybe you know there's a YouTuber um uh Justin Hammer I think his name is. He runs like an esoterica YouTube channel.

[00:41:01]Um he's like an Orthodox Jewish man. The phrase he uses is Israelites went into Babylon and Jews came out. And then on the other side you see like the helanized Jews >> um who eventually like became Christians. And I find that like um that bifurcation of that tradition of you have like modern Judaism having that eastern influence of um Babylon and Persia and you have modern Christianity having like this Greco Roman tradition of like um the the Jewish tradition with the Greek philosophy of like the logos and all of that. And to me that's something I find super super interesting. And I feel like aspects of like Cabala or like Racianism or like some of the Western esoteric traditions like you have like these echoes of like these ancient traditions going back to the Bronze Age. And I find that super super interesting. Um and it sounds like you do too. So I know that's not exactly a question. What are what are your thoughts on any of that that I vomited at?

[00:42:06]>> I definitely have thoughts. Um, Esoteric is a great channel. I think his name is Sledge. Justin Sledge.

[00:42:12]>> Sledge. Yeah, Hammer. Sledge, you know.

[00:42:17]>> Um, basically, yeah, basically the same thing. And well, one of the my favorite writers is Rabbi Jill Hammer. So, I always have Hammer's last name in my mind. But, um, yeah. So, I tend to because I come at this from a confessional angle as in like inner like inside a religion, if that makes sense. um >> sort of like a Christian write will write on Jesus differently because it's a confessional topic for them. But um I tend to think of the helenization as like a great tragedy and I do agree you you can definitely see like neoplatonic stuff especially in Kabala. There's been great stuff written on that, but um I tend to dislike any uh what would you say? Like any concept that has like a really split metaphysical reality um doesn't really drive with me. So when you look at a lot of cobble, there's sort of like separate divine realms and stuff like that. And I find that fascinating to study. But from a confessional angle, I'm like, "No, this splits us from, you know, the worldly reality like we shouldn't be um the uh what's the phrase, you know, um the wise look to heaven although they see nothing there, but nourishment comes from the earth, so we should look at the dirt."

[00:43:39]Um that's kind of a dictim that I follow. And so I love reading Greek stuff. I mean, I went through a huge Aristotle phase in undergrad, like so that I say undergrad because that was like almost a decade ago at this point.

[00:43:52]But um I like that that stuff. I also get kind of sad when I read um Helenized Jewish stuff.

[00:44:01]>> So yeah, it's a strange it's a strange combo, but it's um it is really fascinating. the exact date of like the origin of cobble is an interesting topic because it seems to come about in the middle ages but we don't really know the exact lineage of how you know >> um and the older Jewish mystical stuff is interesting too so like me mysticism the sort of uh vision questy type stuff it's like you'll encounter an angel at this gate and you have to say this thing and um yeah it's all very interesting even if I don't necessarily like adopt it as part of my own faith, but I find it very poignant the idea of people coming back from exile, exiled from themselves kind of. Um, and that comes up even with the Egyptian slavery in Torah. Like often times parts of the book of Exodus are like interpreted as God is treating the Israelites in a way they'll understand because they were just in slavery in a particular culture for so long.

[00:45:04]>> Like they need to figure out how to use the freedom they have, but they don't quite know yet. They're still in the like Egyptian slave mentality.

[00:45:12]Um, so yeah, it's all um I haven't read the was it Schlommo Sand.

[00:45:19]>> Yeah, it's an it's more it's an interesting book. I would recommend it especially to some like you. I don't know. It's um my understanding is it's controversial.

[00:45:29]Um and I'm an outsider looking in as just like this is interesting stuff. Um it's one of it's probably my favorite book I read last year since as you can imagine um it's called the invention of the Jewish people. It's kind of specifically in like the context of the nation of Israel. But he goes because my originally like the impetus of it is I don't know if you're if you've I would imagine you've heard of Dominion by Tom Holland. Everybody's talking about it.

[00:45:55]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:56]>> Yeah. My idea was like okay well that was an interesting book about you know the history of Christianity. let me find an equivalent for Judaism and an equivalent for Islam just because you know that's the type of person I am.

[00:46:08]>> And he talks about like the actual history in um like a secular sense as well as like the construction of an identity like a ship of thesis type of thing which is something that I find very interesting because that's what Tom Holland did. um similar to like um I can't think of the there's two authors a man and a woman who wrote the Bible on earth um which takes a more like secular look at the history of uh the Bible andor Torah Tanakh depending on you know your confessional heritage um which is something that I find interesting and I'm I'm curious about how Thank you sweetie sorry I was talking for the audience my wife brought my coffee I'm not calling Virginia sweetie um cancelled unfortunately before my time.

[00:46:59]Um, so I was I was how literally do you take the Bible since that's something that I found interesting about these three books about putting these the Bible and Torah Tanakh again depending on your confessional heritage in historical context. Well, this book was written this time, this book was written that time, this book was meant to be metaphor. This book was meant to be history. this book was a combination of pre-existing Babylonian myth um and you know uh Jewish tradition that being the book of Job like to me that was it made it made it more rich and it like you know reignited my faith that was kind of latent but I know with these things different religious people and traditions will have different reactions to that that very concept so what are your thoughts >> yeah that's a big question I don't know if anybody's asked me that that question before. So, uh I would say I take it seriously literally is maybe not the framework I would even think of it as like literal or nonliteral >> because I think in the Jewish tradition it would most of us would take it as a mistake to think of it as >> primarily a history textbook. So Solomon I think existed do I think what happened in the book of kings literally uh maybe maybe it was part of the story um the Jewish tradition would certainly take it as only part of a story but um no I wouldn't say I take it fully literally I would say it has a lot of value I think the phrase that I've that's stuck with me is like the accumulated spiritual wisdom of my people >> so I I think it has supernatural provenence, but I think as a history, I don't know. Did did the story of Ruth actually happen to somebody named Ruth?

[00:48:59]Uh, probably not. I don't know. Um, that's why I hadn't really thought about it because I'm like, you know, I don't know how much how much I >> that might be the bias of my confessional heritage since I was raised in like the Southern Baptist when the Bible is like a literally true history, which come to find out like >> not only is that like not the um the Jewish understanding, like most tradition most Christian traditions have not believed that the Bible is literally true, but >> yeah. Um it's something I find interesting because without doxing myself like my um my family has a lot of history in like the American Christian like Southern Baptist tradition. So it's something that I struggle with personally since um if it probably you know not being raised in the Christian world. Well, like um I have a a relatively close family member um who like a hundred years ago wrote some like southern gospel songs that are popular enough that I feel like even you would know at least one of them because it's been in like movies like soul country even hip-hop artists have covered some of these songs. Um but that tradition of like biblical literalism is and and understanding like the historical context that existed in is something that I find interesting but like um that I've struggled with of you know I was an edgy you know in the 2000s for anybody in that um who grew up in that millu of like the internet atheist thing of debunking like oh wow you know you know you mentioned like the Egyptian slavery thing like I think mo a lot I won't say most but a lot of modern historians question if that was like a literal mass enslavement etc etc but to me the um like kind you you mentioned like the collective wisdom of a people and like you know how a people would have understand understood their their interactions with the divine to me that's a lot more compelling and I think the Catholic or orthodox tradition is a lot more rich on the Christian side of that. But um >> it's an interesting conversation between what should be taken as history because I think I did some research semi-reently. I wish I would have taken notes for this, but I think like for example like King David, there are some um what's the word I'm looking for?

[00:51:33]contemporary um accounts off-handedly mentioning like King David like he's I don't think he was like the earliest verifiable historical figure >> but that's like the biggest one whereas like the New Testament was >> and like the um the the tail end of the Old Testament was written contemporaneously with like you know the Greco Roman period and the Persians who had good history. So it's it's an interesting conversation for sure.

[00:52:06]>> Yeah. Like the the book of Daniel is usually taken to have been written in the Makabian uh period as which is pretty late. But yeah, I think that so the reason I I think it's it was useful for me just now to stumble through thinking about literalism because I tend to think of true with a lowercase T versus true with a capital T. Um, so is the story of David true with a lowercase T? Probably not. I don't know. Um, I don't really know how I would know that, you know, with a capital T. Yeah. Like in that bigger spiritual sense. Uh, yeah. But I think also the Jewish tradition has like very different ways of interpreting the um, Tanakh. So it's like a lot of I guess you could say like linguistic interpretation. So like the the I don't know if you're familiar with like gamatrio and stuff >> where Gotcha. Yeah. So letters having numerical values.

[00:53:07]>> Oh, I hadn't heard the term. Yeah.

[00:53:09]>> Yeah. You can compare a a like passage from one part to another part and that relates them and you're like trying to figure out how they're related and stuff like that or how many words can be taken as having cabbalistic meaning like this isn't really there are plenty of Orthodox Jews who are pretty literal believers in what's said in Tanakh um but there's so many other ways of interpreting it that the history textbook thing is um doesn't really come to mind as much I think but but and there are you know there are certain parts of the Torah that I don't think were put there for good reasons and uh I think that one has to be discerning with interpreting it um at least the sources that I draw a lot of inspiration from uh outright say that the law comes from like the wrong side basically that um laws were put there by certain forces to restrict human well-being and encourage them toward death and so on. And so it's not like it's a bad text. It's just you need to be really careful with what angle you're reading it from.

[00:54:22]>> Yeah. I um I've often said that like I feel like um religion I mean to me obviously I grew up in the Christian Christian tradition. It sounds like there's definitely some parody there.

[00:54:33]like it's something you need to take it like face value or just really really dig into it. Um cuz otherwise it will lend itself to >> you know unfortunate misinterpretations.

[00:54:46]Um which I guess um I mean I could talk esoteric another three hours. Um, but I think that does lead to >> another topic that I wanted to talk to you about since if we're talking about interpretation um of, you know, religious texts, the esoterica, but at the same time because it sounds like, you know, you and I are kindered spirits in that sense that if the, you know, we could talk, as I said, for three hours on this and I'm sure like, you know, six people would continue to listen. But um cuz I I I forgot if I've mentioned on Substack or to you like my dad was a pastor. I come from like a long line of um like religious you know like my my great-grpa for example I kind of alluded to this was like a like a dust bowl era like big big tent revival um preacher. So I feel like I have that um what's the word I'm looking for? clerical mindset and tradition. I think my writing covers that. But kind of to loop it back to what we're talking about at the beginning, if we're talking academics, you know, Spangler, Judith Butler, whomever, you have to find a way to make these things legible to the average person. Um, and have it, you know, something relevant to the modern person's life. So I guess um with both religion um andor feminism, traditionalism um what are your thoughts on like the intersection of that um with modernity specifically in the internet? because I know you've written about this um somewhat directly and also obliquely about um you know I've I've you know said like the the return to tradition as you know versus is it a lar versus >> grasping at something um that you know maybe that we've lost um and with with any of these things um and again I guess these are just kind of jumping off points because of what your thoughts are and maybe a good entry point is right now I'm working on writing something about I because there's this novel called Yesterday year about a woman who's a trad influencer um who sent back to the trad times and I want to actually read it because I feel like it's one of those things that kind of like we talked about at the beginning of the conversation that people hear the premise and just go off and and not um not read whatever it is. And you know that's that's kind of my thought on it is like you know I feel like there are people who miss the point of what people feel find appealing about traditionalism and say well you know you wouldn't have had dental but at the same time you do want to keep that in mind um when you're trying to find a the wisdom of the past to live in modernity which is kind of the tagline of my writing paraphrased but um so yeah what are what are your thoughts on that kind of that perennial ial question.

[00:57:54]>> Um, I'm not sure perennial was a pun, but I like that. You know, like perennialism.

[00:58:00]Um, >> yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:01]>> Uh, I think so. I have a hard time thinking of modernity as like a huge break is part of my problem. Um, and maybe this is coming from the religious perspective.

[00:58:13]I think that there are sort of inflection points in history. I don't know that I would connect them specifically to technology and stuff.

[00:58:20]like my brain doesn't really like think super that way >> as far as like tradition.

[00:58:29]Uh I think religion is a good grounding.

[00:58:32]A lot of people are ungrounded right now. Definitely. I think that's something a lot of people say is like >> a modern thing. It is that might be true. I don't know. Um you know it's tied to the internet. It's tied to >> probably like the dawn of radio I guess.

[00:58:45]I don't know. Um it's probably been a a while in the making. printing press. You could you could have a lot of different starting points.

[00:58:53]>> Yeah, that darn Gutenberg. Um >> ruined everything.

[00:58:58]>> Exactly. We should destroy prints. Not really. Um I think that religion does actually point us backward and forward at the same time in a useful way. So like when we're thinking about um ancient stuff, we're also figuring out how to behave. And also I something I do take very seriously is prophetic literature. Like that's something that I think is a lot of people especially in the scholarly side are like well this is about the time that it was written and stuff like that >> and that's like sure I guess but it's also about to me it's also about the future like I feel like >> there's plenty of prophetic stuff that is literally pointing us to the future.

[00:59:41]Yeah, I would agree. I mean, that was kind of not to interrupt, but that was kind of the impetus of that piece I wrote, Cthulhu, about, you know, the the Christian book of Revelation where it has a very specific historical context and a very, you know, as you obviously know more about than me. It was and like the the Jewish apocalyptic tradition that was adapted for like the Christian moment. But there's something that is, you know, been adapted to, you know, for 2,000 years at this point because people are finding ways to deal with the modern moment through this through this book.

[01:00:16]>> Yeah. And there's actually like more prophecies outside just the Hebrew Bible that I take seriously. There's a a book that we have in fragments that's other that's like basically additional prophecies of Isaiah specifically for what we would call like the modern era and um that sounds like kooky I know but like I do believe in this. Well, do you do you mind clarifying then since just to for me to clarify so you can clarify when I say modernity there's one sense like the perennial like the current moment but also like I would say from like maybe the 19th century on of like you know >> uh certain technological advancements and like dassination. Um but that's kind of what I mean. But when you say you don't like the term modernity the current moment what do you mean when you say Isaiah helps you deal with that? Oh.

[01:01:07]Um, I think it's more just that I I like the term modernity. I I think it's useful to have terms for different eras.

[01:01:13]I just don't know that it has much like spiritual significance.

[01:01:16]>> Okay, I see you.

[01:01:17]>> That's all. Yeah. Um, I think there's a big technological break. But the this particular book of Isaiah's prophecies um was written down in the 18th century.

[01:01:29]So like it's you know modern modern I guess >> may or may not be based on anything before that. Uh, well, it was supposed to have been revealed then and I think >> Joseph Smith style or is that being too pigative?

[01:01:43]>> Uh, I I have sympathies for Mormonisms, but >> I love Mormons, but go on.

[01:01:50]>> Yeah, I I think that there are parallels to be found there, but um yeah, I mean, I take this as serious. I I think that um certain things are going to happen, but I think that uh like I posted a little while ago and I think I talked about this somewhere else about like I don't like the idea of living in the moment. I like living in the past and the future, you know.

[01:02:11]>> I really like that. Yeah, >> religion does both those things, you know. Um, I think it grounds us in time, but it also it's like prophecy has this cool effect of being like the future impacting the present.

[01:02:27]And um, a lot of actual actually a lot of prophetic material in Tanakh is sort of like if you don't do this then this will happen, you know.

[01:02:39]>> So the future actually kind of goes back and reshapes the present. Um, and that means that the future reshaping the present for them shaped the past for us, you know. Um, >> so yeah, I take I take prophetic stuff very seriously and I think it has a good like grounding effect on our morality, but um, as far as the sort of return to tradition stuff, I think that not a huge like Chesterton's fence gal, but I think that there are certain things we we can examine. I think for instance in the uh third wave of feminism, I refuse to acknowledge a fourth wave. I think we've only had three waves.

[01:03:19]>> I thought it was only three until fairly recently myself, but I've been kind of >> merging third and fourth waves.

[01:03:26]>> Yeah, I tend to >> I don't think there's that much difference. Um but basically like there's been a lot of intrusion of misogyny into feminism I believe.

[01:03:42]>> And so in that way I think sometimes we should probably pull the brakes a little maybe back up a bit and restart at least certain one or two certain things you know. Um, but as far as returning to like I think yesterday year is about what like the 19th century she goes back to.

[01:04:00]>> I believe I I still need to read it actually.

[01:04:04]>> I think uh you know I do support the spread of liberal democracy and feminism. And so I think going back in time uh can be quite not literally time traveling like in that case but like uh from a from my religious perspective I think that striving to return with a V uh can be pretty problematic and problematic not in the social justice warrior sense you know.

[01:04:32]>> Yeah I know what you mean. No um I know what you mean. I guess I'm if you want to expand on it a little bit because at least on the surface at least it seems to me like there's maybe a little bit of conflict there. So I'm I wonder what your thoughts are both being devoutly religious and a feminist and you know again cards on the table. I've, you know, I pointedly uh non-denominational on this. Like, you know, if it's I guess in that, you know, Christian ethic sense, like judge me by my deeds, but I don't necessarily identify as feminist because that'll, you know, there's it's one of those things that once you say you are, then it's a whole thing. um as you obviously know >> but um I'm of two minds about it personally since my um and then this is like the tagline of my writing is you know navigating the trials of modernity through the wisdom of the past um because I think there's a lot of wisdom that comes from the past like you said it's like the collective I once heard a tradition called this like you know the collective troubleshooting of the human race you can get more specific um with you know a religious tradition what have you. So, I think there are a lot of things that um technology or like liberal democracy has like shorn away that it was like, you know, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. But at the same time, you can't just straight up go back even if you wanted to. And putting aside how, you know, problematic with a a lowercase or uppercase P you want to you want to put there, it's it's not even possible. So, for me, it's a non-starter, but at the same time, I think like, you know, and I imagine you'll disagree with this, maybe you will, maybe you won't. It'll be interesting conversation. Like, I don't think like, you know, men and women can be equal because men and women are different, but that doesn't mean one is better or the other, but also I don't think that there should be any like legal differences and let you know people be different. Um, and like that's very like antithetical to a certain brand of liberalism. Um, >> if that makes sense. So to me it like my project is trying to find what's good about the present, what's good about the past and finding a holistic view. Um, because I do think that like there's a certain um, uh, tendency in liberalism. Some people would say it's more Marxist. I would say it's more liberal, but it's neither here nor there of like you can only look forward. The past was categorically evil and to look into the past is wrong. We always have to be moving forward. There was nothing good about our ancestors.

[01:07:19]There's nothing good about the past, which um I think kind of goes too far in the other direction.

[01:07:26]>> Yeah. So, I definitely think we should learn things from the past. I um I think I'm constitutionally conservative in certain ways. Uh >> but yeah, so the the issue of equality I think even I can say this loosely sometimes. So sex equality is like a good thing I guess as far as sameness.

[01:07:52]This is why I liked the old term women's liberation >> because the goal of radical feminists usually a lot of feminists is basically just liberation. It's not like they actually reject the term equality.

[01:08:07]>> And so a lot of feminists would, including me, would totally agree trying to erase difference is a problem. Um people are always going to be different even within the sexes and so on. Um the issue is just like liberation from oppression. So there shouldn't be sex based oppression. It's a liberation movement, not so much equality. And I I do think yeah, equality is usually taken in like this liberal sense. And that's probably why, you know, that's where radical feminism and liberal feminism will inevitably clash a little bit.

[01:08:43]Yeah, I tend to prefer the the sort of liberation model as opposed to equality.

[01:08:48]Um, but I think way back in the 19th century, I I love Margaret Fuller. Um, maybe romantically, I don't know. She uh she writes really well about, you know, we should clip nobody's wings. Like, don't clip women's wings. Let them let their souls be free. She talks about souls a lot.

[01:09:10]She's a very religious feminist. Um, but what she says is like, yeah, most women are probably going to want to do things that we more associate with women today still. And that's like I think she says like mothers will delight in making the nest warm and comfortable, you know? Um, there's just like natural things that will probably dictate some of this stuff, but that is precisely why we don't need to clip anyone's wings. Like let nature take its course, but like let it take its course, if that makes sense.

[01:09:40]Yeah, 100% agreement on that. That's uh you know because I think um interestingly enough and I have to check this again. This may or may not be correct but last time I remember checking like um like for example Scandinavian countries that um will go to great lengths to make sure like you know women have equal access to education and whatnot. the what we would see as like you know I think some like you know western I guess you know western like anglophere maybe is a better term for it feminacy of like you know proportionately less women in STEM and more in like you know education they see that as a problem in and of itself and in these um these systems those differences become more pronounced not less >> and like you know I I would agree with you there like you know people are going to be what they're going to I'm not and again like you know I'm sometimes I say like I'm right-wing to the degree that I'm not a liberal in like a blank slatedist kind of way. I think I don't think we're blank slates. I think like you know your culture, your sex, etc. these these things play a role. Um, and I think that can be, weirdly enough, like even saying that, like, you know, I'm I'm a terrible terrible far-right person, but, you know, I think it's kind of I don't know, it's not a very interesting distinction to make since I kind of think that like it's left and right as we kind of discuss them sometimes. It's like a 19th and 20th century.

[01:11:10]>> Yeah. conception that doesn't have a lot of um I don't know there's some purchase in the 21st century but it's just so very different that it's not >> I don't think it's always helpful to use those terms.

[01:11:24]>> I think it's often just cosmetic. It's like there's a right aesthetic that we associate, but then like sometimes yeah, they really >> um it can there's a lot more than just left and right hand in that case. But um yeah, I think this Scandinavia thing is is the case. Um but yeah, so I think you know, let people be what they will that maybe it proves one side or another side. I don't know. But I think figures like Margaret Fuller are good proof that, you know, one doesn't have to be anti-feminist to think that women will tend toward one thing or another. And then you can also look at men too. It's like we want men to be liberated from the same chains. Fuller is very clear that men also struggle with sex related things. Um, will that mean that half of them want to be stay-at-home dads?

[01:12:17]Probably not. I don't know. I mean, I think that we can hold both natural inclinations and the need to get rid of non-natural chains. Like, I think those things >> or they go fine with each other >> because I think uh the phrase by Fuller is like Penelope was not meant to be just a weaver any more than Adysius was meant to be just a cow herd, >> you know? Like these should be part of life and a choice and all that stuff.

[01:12:47]>> Yeah. Do you see um religion as a way to like as a guidepost to find out what those what that holistic difference is going to be or like in the more critical sense that you talked about?

[01:13:04]Um which >> sorry like some of these um like what are organic differences between the sexes for example and what is external oppression and do you see the religious tradition in general or your tradition more specifically? Is that like a guidepost we should look to um the Torah in your case? Um or is it like okay it was right about this not right about that and you talked about like a more critical tradition viewing viewing the the religious tradition.

[01:13:39]>> Oh I see. Yeah. So um I think there's wisdom contained in gendered teachings and Torah and by Torah I'm speaking very broadly. So that includes things like the midrash and talmud and whatnot. I think there's some wisdom to be found there. Actually, my favorite part of Tama to study is uh Nida, trackate Nida, which is the rules of menstrual purity. And it's like sort of a boring track tape, but it it has interesting stuff where it's like you're reading about you're reading men talking about restricting women in certain ways.

[01:14:16]And then it's like there's a bit about, you know, a baby being born looking very strange and it ends up being like easily read as an anti-ugenics thing. And so I think there's like values to be found there. Do I think that track needs has much to say about the female nature?

[01:14:32]Probably not. Um, unless it's the female nature is to be talked about by men a lot in which case yes uh that would seem to be proof >> which is >> as a side note as I think it's very funny especially in like recent years as unfortunately you're probably aware of there's been like an anti-semitism uptick. kind like ah the tomood says this and at least from my understanding it's basically commentary and like a really really long thing because years ago I bought just like I wasn't like I guess particularly educated on the tradition. I was just like buying religious texts. I bought like you know the Quran and the Hadith which is like the the commentary thereof. I was like oh let me get the Talmud the one book the Talmood and I just bought like a random English translation.

[01:15:19]>> What the [ __ ] is this [ __ ] I don't understand any of this. And it's, you know, it's commentary.

[01:15:23]>> It is 73 volumes, I believe.

[01:15:29]>> Yeah. I just read the one. It didn't really >> Yeah. So, there's a lot of like selected ones, but it's not even just a commentary. It's a dialogue. So, it's like a ton of different rabbis >> arguing with each other. I think a lot of people, especially Christians, think it's like the book of Leviticus where it's like this is a list of laws. That's not the case. They're trying to interpret laws that are already in the Torah. There is a code of law that a lot of Jews follow, the >> um so if someone wants to see what Orthodox Jews actually view as religious law, they can go there. Talmud though is like half stories, you know, it's got the the law and then it's got the or the stories.

[01:16:08]>> Um yeah, so it's really the anti-semitic stuff about Talmud is just like it's mind-numbingly stupid to me. Uh, >> it's like if you're to get some random like, you know, commentary from like, you know, the the 15th century about some like Italian priests getting mad at the French or whatever.

[01:16:26]>> Yeah. Except >> based off of the Bible, you know, it's like, oh, the the, you know, they were actually, you know, the Canaanites are the French now, you know.

[01:16:35]>> Yeah. Well, it's um it would be like 200 different Frenchmen who disagree with each other about the British being bad, who are telling stories interwoven with legal disputes and >> um and there's, you know, paranormal incidents and stuff. But yeah, so on the train of religion and gender, I mean, the teachings I follow in the sort of sectarian works I tend to follow in Judaism mandate that you support women's liberation. Like that's a >> basically a law. And the difficulty is to figure out what kind of feminism and like what would help best. But um like this is a place where I clash with a lot of feminists.

[01:17:25]Uh not in a way that's even useful to argue with them about, but like to me we'll know when the goal is done when the world is like being redeemed. Um I'm not sure there's really a mathematical point where it's like, you know, we can run the numbers like a rationalist, you know, and >> figure out like is the oppression of women over. Um, I think we just have to keep working until until it's obvious that things are over. Um, and that's, you know, that that's always going to be a little bit of a difficulty with religious feminism because it's not so interested in like ending certain statistical things, if that makes sense.

[01:18:07]>> Yeah. No, it for sure does because I was going to ask you like what time period is this tradition from out of curiosity since I know um ju you know there's a lot of women that I've known in my life particular like family members and older women who like you know these were not like barefoot in the in the kitchen housewives um but they also like you know they didn't like the term feminism because they associate it with I guess you know the the term you that's probably the least porative was like bgeoa feminism of like a particularly like you know >> 19th century and on Anglo upper middle class sensibility um like you know for example like the I forget who it was there was like a black feminist lady I guess not feminist because she was specifically like I don't like the term feminism specifically for the reasons I stated she used the term womanism and much in the same way >> um oh she's an anti-semite I'm trying to remember her name >> didn't know that at the time um I didn't do that one but >> she's she actually has the whole anti-alatist anti-semitism thing specifically which is funny >> well in any case point being um my like you know my my I've never had women my my point I was trying to get to is um like the whole like the the 1960s like uh middle class like oh we want to get in the workplace but like you know I come from a more workingass background like women in my family have never not worked either in the home or like you know right my grandma was a nurse my great grandma was a teacher like >> um you know it that particular um brand of feminism I feel like speaks to a specific time and a place whereas like you would definitely And again, kind of like I was saying earlier, by some de definitions, you would absolutely call these women feminists, but even though they don't identify that way, and I think some of these more perennial um like older traditions kind of speak to that more organic um gender interactions that's not so facilitated by capital.

[01:20:29]>> Yeah. So, the tradition I'm thinking of uh started in the 18th century. So um >> so kind of concurrent >> just a little before I suppose.

[01:20:39]>> Yeah. So it came up um around the same time as like Mary Wilstoncraft uh except it it was like the the sort of proto feminist aspect is prophetic like it's not taken as just like this is sociological argument. It's like no the Messiah is a woman and the Messiah has to be revered.

[01:21:02]um and both to like honor her and to promote her coming back so the world is like ready for it. It's like the world has to care more about women and like it goes along that line of thought rather than purely you know here's the number about the numbers about women in the workforce and so on. Um I think Alice Walker's who we were thinking of by the way, the the anti-semite lady or womanist lady.

[01:21:27]>> But um yeah, so it was coming up at a time that like liberal uh democracy and feminism were just sort of starting and I think it's no coincidence that it witnessed the birth of feminism, you know, like it was there before it and then feminism suddenly blossomed. And um at the very least that's conspicuous timing. Um, >> but yeah, I mean, I was writing about apocalyptic feminism recently and the religious movement starting to adopt egalitarianism in the Jewish world strangely has like a fan out effect of like people loosely ever more loosely connected to it being like significant feminists. Um, and I think that's at the very least it's really cool. I don't know if I'd attribute religious significance to the coincidence, but it's >> I think that there's a lot to be found in religion um feminist wise, the belief in my sect of or line or whatever of Judaism doesn't really believe in an immaterial soul. But if you do, then it's like all these bodily differences don't mean as much, you know.

[01:22:37]>> Um so I think that there are plenty of ways that religion can be our guide. Uh, and as far as the capital thing, capitalism, >> I mean, that's just the difference >> lowerase C capitalism in my case.

[01:22:50]>> Yeah. Um, I I think that we just kind of fish around and things get better as they go along. Like I think Betty Ferdan who was, you know, she started the second wave of wave of feminism with the feminine mystique 1963 where she was very insistent about women going into the workforce but especially education.

[01:23:08]Um, that was a big, you know, that was a big deal and then it got corrected and built upon and I think that's fine. You know, there were good good critiques of that line of feminism pretty immediately and so I think like yeah, it's sort of dialectic things um things can improve but then things can go backward and then they get sorted out and so on and eventually it'll all be perfect >> which I say religiously. the the slow long march of history and I just a different context. Um, you know, it's interesting because I see um like certain parallels in the Christian community, especially like the medieval era, like, you know, I mentioned the Anabaptists, they're like, you know, these radical, you know, relatively for their time about equality. Um, and I know it's not a onetoone thing, and this is maybe a can of worms, but um, like when I look at like the Puritan tradition and trying to like dress in a certain way to remove like um, gender differences in the way your appearance sometimes. It makes me think of some of like the modern queer stuff that it feels like it's kind of >> an ideological descendant which will piss I feel like aspects of both sides of that debate off quite a bit but >> yeah I mean I feel like there's just nothing new under the sun like what's what's the impetus behind it? It's like well we want to be more equal and these are you know fake characteristics that have been created by society. You could, you know, you could have a religious Christian way of looking at that or you could have like a, you know, secular social justice um, uh, way to look at that. And I think a lot of these things just lasted a really long time. Um, and I talked about this in my history podcast. People like to act like, you know, quote unquote wokeness or like the American progressive tradition, you know, like America was, you know, based forever up until 1960, you know, the communist and, you know, the feminists, >> whomever you want to blame, came in and ruined everything. But like this goes back a really, really long time. A lot of this like liberation theology stuff.

[01:25:26]>> Yeah, I definitely agree. I mean, I was, you know, we're talking about like 18th century >> theology and stuff, you know, it uh in the Jewish tradition, like this stuff does go um way back. I think that there's a particular style of engaging with it that's relatively new.

[01:25:41]>> Like I think if you go into a univerist, are they called churches?

[01:25:48]>> Um whatever type thing.

[01:25:51]>> Yeah. Like unarian universalist religious service. Um, it's probably going to be quite different from, you know, the radical gender egalitarian movement in Judaism in the 17th century.

[01:26:04]Like, it's going to be uh different, maybe not directly related, but I agree that like a lot of what people think is new isn't necessarily. Um, and I think yeah, there's there's like a lack of religious literacy including among the religious people. Uh, >> and I'm not just I think it's easy.

[01:26:28]People often like dump on Protestant Christians for this, but like I don't know. I teach at a reformed uh in a reformed Jewish context, which is a liberal Jewish context, and a lot of people in reformed Judaism don't even know all the books of Tanakh by name.

[01:26:47]like they I've known plenty of evangelicals who would seem uneducated who know more about the Hebrew Bible than do many Jews I know.

[01:26:55]>> So I think >> Yeah, it's not uncommon.

[01:26:59]>> Yeah, >> I think um I kind of grew up adjacent to that tradition. I feel like that's probably what has inspired my interest in Judaism over the years because I always identified much more with the Old Testament than the New. I mean, again, maybe it's probably says something to, as you can tell, like my personality type. I like to see the world in stories and, you know, larger context where like I feel like I've become more um seeing the New Testament in a new light, but it's like, you know, it's a bunch of guys letters to actual people. So, it's a different vibe, but there's definitely like I feel um there's a lot of organic interest there. Um, which is maybe why you see that affinity between, you know, Jewish people and like evangelical Christians.

[01:27:45]>> Yeah. Well, they would be horrified at that. You know, the reformed Judaism is like super progressive, super >> Oh, yeah.

[01:27:53]>> They often want to like a lot of them are actually converts who grew up conservative Christian or something. So, they're very like >> Yeah. One of my wife's friends converted to uh >> to reform Judaism.

[01:28:06]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty it's pretty common. A lot of synagogues are like one-third converts. Um, but it is interesting that yeah, a lot of times they sort of collapse into similar ways of doing things.

[01:28:18]>> Mhm.

[01:28:18]>> Um, >> because I think people are people to a certain degree and I think it's going to draw in certain personality types and similar external pressures are going to >> to to to build that. But no, it's interesting. Like I've often joked that like if I were to become religious again like Orthodox Christianity, conservative Judaism, Mormonism. Those are like my top three. But you know, I don't I don't think I've looked into a conservative Judaism. They kind of do the not super into conversion. They do like the Shaolin monk type thing if you uh you try to convert, which personally I like.

[01:28:56]I don't I don't like uh I don't like it to be too easy when you're trying to join stuff like that. So >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think re it takes it's a little bit more intense than for reform. Although reform's it can be it still takes a long time like a year, year and a half or whatever. It's not >> like learn Hebrew and stuff I believe and >> uh some not super well but you have to know some a little bit. Yeah. Um >> and I you know we have to I guess I probably have to know as much as like a bach mitzvah bar mitzvah student. I'm guessing I haven't like done that with them before, but um given that I teach the little kidlings Hebrew on their way up to their >> Yeah.

[01:29:39]>> about mitzvah, like yeah, there's a general lack of Hebrew knowledge I think unfortunately in reform. Yeah, conservative is probably a little bit more intense. My >> This isn't really a gripe, but like I've gotten asked a lot of times like if you're so religious, why are you still reform, which is like relatively secular?

[01:29:58]>> Mhm. And I find it like conservative, for those who aren't familiar, like conservative is still a branch of liberal Judaism. Like it's not orthodox, but they have more traditional observances than reformed does. And one, I don't like that they struggled so much more to have women rabbis. Uh, and two, I think there's just difficulty in like why do they follow that law and not that like once you start to sort of and we'll do this and not this and but it's still required and it's like that throws me a little bit. I'm like is the law valid or is it not valid? I don't know. I get a little lost in the weeds with like how they're interpreting things basically.

[01:30:42]>> Yeah. I suppose that's um that's always the problem, right? I mean you have a Catholicism. It's like it's the Bible.

[01:30:49]It's what the Pope says. And then once you get into the weeds of interpretation, then you're putting human interpretation into the mix, then it gets a little bit messier. But >> I just said, well, I mean, partially, I mean, I'm being a little bit cheeky there. Um, because I I like things of lore. And as you could probably tell from this conversation, if I can dig deep into something, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, let me read all these books.

[01:31:13]That's great. This will be fun." Um, but also Mormonism just has like a a fun aura to it. They're um, but oh, they're walking around trying to get people to join, which I kind of don't like. You know, they I feel like I should have to work for a little bit more than that.

[01:31:29]>> Yeah, they make it too easy. They show up and they're smiling and they're, you know, friendly.

[01:31:34]>> Handsome young men. I want Yeah. I want to get turned away three times. That's >> Yes.

[01:31:38]>> It's more It's more fun that way or more interesting, you know, spiritually fulfilling. Sometimes I drive by uh Freemasonry came to mind because of Joseph Smith's connection to Freemasonry.

[01:31:51]>> And I drive by sometimes this Masonic lodge that like I can't tell if it's abandoned or not. And I kind of like that >> and like it looks like a like house of mysteries or something, you know.

[01:32:02]>> Well, maybe that's um fun fun lore about me that you know since you said you joined a cult. Um, my family is actually banned from joining the Freemasons per family lore.

[01:32:15]>> Why? What happened?

[01:32:16]>> So, I, if you recall from the beginning of the conversation, my my great grandpa was like a big tent revival preacher, but apparently he was also, and this might be, this might not be true, but I like to think it's true. That's the family legend, but he was like a Freemason, you know, back in like the 20s and 30s, and he got up to like near the top degree. Um and he's to join like the 32nd or 33rd degree, whichever it is. He's like, you know, what they wanted to do um what they wanted him to do is like he said, you know, it's uh quote unquote uncchristian. Um and he quit the Masons. And our family has been uh forever banned from the Freemasons.

[01:32:57]And I tried to reach out to join. I mean, this is I did an online application. They didn't get back to me.

[01:33:02]So, you know, we don't know for sure.

[01:33:06]Maybe it is true. Um, who knows? The >> the Frankus movement and Judaism, um, which I talk about a lot, uh, obviously misrepresented by conspiracy theorists all the time, but at one point they they did get along pretty well with the Masons, especially their leader, their early leader, and they actually tried to found a lodge, like a Jewish Mason lodge, >> and the Freemasons didn't like the Jews, so they said like no. And so I always find it funny like the the sort of conspiracy theories about like the Jews and the Freemasons. It's like no they actually tried to get along. We tried to get along with them.

[01:33:45]>> Wouldn't have them unfortunately.

[01:33:48]>> Yeah.

[01:33:48]>> Many such cases in history but uh you know hopefully moving away from that.

[01:33:53]But um no it's interesting. There's definitely something to that esoteric draw and I think that's part of what you know both conservative Judaism and Orthodox Christianity had that like you can't just show up and say hey can I join like yeah awesome you have to actually you know learn things and take it seriously which I kind of appreciate.

[01:34:13]Um, and I think there's maybe that's part of why there's a, you know, this draw back to religion, which I think is overstated, and I want your your opinion on it more broadly, but something that is not frictionless in life since everything is so frictionless now, to actually have to you have to like learn a language in the case of at least to some degree in the case of Judaism or, you know, learn about um my sister, you know, we were raised Protestant but she's in the process of converting to Catholicism, which is my mom's side of the family.

[01:34:47]You have to learn about the saints and I don't know what else goes into that. Um, and I assume there's something equivalent for Orthodox Christianity.

[01:34:55]Um, so what are I guess do you have thoughts on like this supposed to religion that we're seeing now? Is it fake? Is it real? Um, overstated, some combination thereof since just one more thing and I'll throw it back to you. I do know I've had some friends who were like raised atheist who um were um or converted to Christianity recently back in my hometown where I grew up. I you know I had a lot of Jewish friends who were like you know they were Jewish in the sense that I was Christian like you know they didn't go to temple on Sunday and the sense that you know I didn't go to church. Um and a lot of them are returning. um you're seeing a lot of return, but I also I can't tell how much of it is an online phenomenon.

[01:35:42]I I've I've heard kind of mixed things on the hard numbers.

[01:35:46]>> Yeah. So, the hard numbers um I pay attention to reporting on this. I think it's Maggie Phillips who does the best on this and there's basically no numbers that would indicate a return. Um part of it I think is that there's a high rate of people leaving. Um like I think with conservative Judaism specifically there's a there's a Pew study from a couple years ago that yeah they have a high what's it called like attrition rate like a lot of people leave and so there there would need to be much greater numbers to like replenish the numbers for these faiths where people are leaving. Um so I think like yeah unfortunately the revival I say unfortunately because I like I think people find common values with me through religion so you know I like when people agree with me. Um, and I so I kind of wish it were realer than it is, but I do think it's fake. However, I have noticed that in the Jewish world, especially since October 7th of 2023, which I don't want to get into too much.

[01:36:46]Um, there have been a lot of people who were like raised in liberal Judaism, did their bach mitzvah, didn't really do anything after that, and then come back.

[01:36:59]Um, so I think yeah, there there's like that that's a difficulty is there's some perceptible returns but then not statistical.

[01:37:09]I think the hard numbers would indicate that it's not real but the experiential side of it would indicate that there's something to it.

[01:37:17]>> Um, yeah.

[01:37:21]>> Yeah, it's interesting. I think maybe there's uh some of the it sounds like it's maybe reaching equilibrium. People are joining, people are leaving at the same time, which is kind of an interesting phenomenon in and of itself. And you see would I'm not currently like I said what religious um in a practicing sense but I do feel like like this baseline level of revulsion at like this very ostentatious like I hate to you know I don't want to call out specific people or public figures uh necessarily but this very ostentatious fake Christianity that it it seems very inorganic that's happening right now.

[01:38:06]All, you know, since unless uh >> I don't think he's ever going to listen to this podcast, like a Russell Brand type or like it just seems >> very fake and that brings out the like Southern Baptist in me that like, you know, I want to put on my white suit and start >> ranting against these people because it just feels very um inorganic and fake in a way that I don't like. But I think that's um we see these things in cycles, but it's um it's interesting to see the parody that happens there.

[01:38:36]>> Yeah. And I was um got an anthology of like essays about um that's like philosophy of religion kind of stuff. I don't know. But I remember that the opening of the introduction, I started to read it was like we're seeing this return of religion. This is a book from like 1990.

[01:38:55]So it's like yeah I guess there's like there's always a decline in religion and there's always a growth in a sudden unexpected growth in religion. Um, but I think that also serves some propagandistic purposes. Whether it's for uh people who like saying that more people are going to church will get more people to go to church, >> I think is a thing that can happen because it's like, >> oh, you get this New York Times story a couple years ago about how the Catholic Church is the coolest club in New York or whatever.

[01:39:25]>> And that saying that, even if it's not the case, is going to attract people to it. and wag the dog.

[01:39:35]>> What was that?

[01:39:36]>> I said wag the dog.

[01:39:37]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, >> so I think I think there's various motives for it. Uh, but I just I hope that people can find some sort of I'm very so I'm a very moralizing person. I'm a bit of a school mom >> and I just I wish more people had some sort of firm moral grounding. And if it religion is where people get it, then that's great. I just think a lot of people are kind of well like what what is someone's moral value when it comes to stealing or something has been a question recently.

[01:40:10]>> Yeah.

[01:40:11]>> And it come people try to make these into political discussions and I just wish people would have a bit more of like a moral perspective on the world.

[01:40:19]So that's why I say like I wish more people were religious.

[01:40:22]>> No, I get it. And that's kind of where I found myself too cuz that's um I went very like hardcore edgy atheist for a while but I think that like moral framing was filtered through that kind of like um atheist andor would you say scientist um liberalism as a religion which um I've talked about before and I'm far from the first person to put point out that you know the quot quote unquote great awokening or meto um can or maybe should be seen in the context of like um the various great awakenings that have happened in periodically in the United States since that's kind of how I see it where and I just kind of mean this in like a value neutral sense you see as a way of trying to reassert some sort of universal morality like me too is a way to um reassert sexual morality post like the sexual revolution like hey if it feels good man do it type thing which I think is probably a necessary thing, but that kind of goes back to the part of the conversation like you don't necessarily want to go back to, you know, um, no handholding before marriage or, you know, >> to stocks with you, but there's probably something that could be incorporated.

[01:41:39]Um, >> since, you know, I I like when I'm being cheeky, I like to say like, for example, like where I stand socially, like, you know, I think love is love. You know, you know, gay people should be able to be together. oppression is wrong, but the gay lifestyle is degenerate, especially when straight people do it.

[01:41:56]Like gays should get married, gay should pair up. That's the good stuff. That's what we need to have.

[01:42:03]>> Yeah. And I mean, I think that there is a connection between this sort of uh I don't I always hate hedging around using the term woke, but like it's the term where everybody knows what you mean. So, I'm just going to say >> um the the sort of woke stuff I think did have a lot of religious stuff to it.

[01:42:19]And I'm not just thinking of like the um was it John McCarter the the woke racism book where he talks about like >> Sounds right. I didn't I remember seeing it. Didn't read it.

[01:42:30]>> Yeah. 2020's anti-racism as religion or whatever. Like I don't I don't really know about >> if that book is accurate.

[01:42:38]>> But I do think that like gender identity as a reassertion of the idea of the soul. Um I like I I don't think I can prove that empirically as like >> people are mentally replacing this gender identity, but it's like you have this >> immaterial imperceptible identity that defines who you are in so many ways.

[01:43:00]Yeah, I think it's kind of a I agree.

[01:43:03]It's like pushing back against secular humanism in its own way because I've often said like if you were and again maybe this is I don't want to get dig too deep into the specifics um because this could be its own discussion in and of itself but like to me if you say um gender is a social construct. Somebody can be born the wrong gender. Those are not you can't those can't coexist if you're just being logical. um much in the same way that like the the concept of the trinity like you know there's Christianity is a monotheistic religion but there's the father the son and the holy spirit and you need almost like a religious framing which is you know something larger than just the material it's like uh it speaks to a larger worldview and again I don't say that punitively towards towards either worldview other than just to kind of agree with you that's it's um reassertion of the soul or however you want to see it. I think that's something that's >> um it's an interesting phenomenon.

[01:44:06]>> Yeah. I think like a lot of people just want there to be something beyond just purely what we can perceive or it's not so much that they want it to be there, it's that maybe it's there and they're picking up on it.

[01:44:18]Um, >> but I think and I also worry sometimes in my own thinking about this if I'm falling prey to parallel mania, which is the thing in religious studies where it's like uh like comparative religion.

[01:44:31]So seeing a Pacific Islander thing and seeing a near eastern thing and thinking like, oh, they're kind of similar. There must be a, you know, parallel just like going crazy for parallels that might not mean anything. And so I try to be cautious about that and my own thinking about like religion versus wokeness kind of. But like even with that caution, I think there's some things >> there. And then like thinking too when I was growing up um back in my day, early 2000s or whatever uh >> back when things were good.

[01:45:05]>> Yeah.

[01:45:05]>> Kids these days and understand that was the perfect amount of technology to analog to digital coincidentally when we were young teenagers. Very much so.

[01:45:15]Agreed. I there should never have been more technology than that with which I founded my cult. Um but I remember like Christians going like railing hard against JK Rowling >> and like basically it was the Christian cancel culture against JK Rowling.

[01:45:32]>> And then I they're not exactly the same thing but decade and a half later it's the left the identitarian left I call it going after rolling. And so it's like it's really hard not to see some whatever one thinks about rolling. I think she's maybe a little off off the deep end. I >> haven't paid much attention in a few years but like it's hard not to see some kind of parallel there and it's hard not to think it means something.

[01:46:02]>> Yeah, I would agree. I mean my thoughts on Rowling are I uh she wrote some books that I enjoyed when I was a kid and >> that I I don't have Twitter. Um, I don't I don't want to wade into that whole thing cuz it's just uh >> it's not my >> not my forte. I'll put it that way. I I see why uh people are upset with her.

[01:46:23]I've also known like you know I've had trans friends like I don't I don't [ __ ] use Twitter. I don't care. Um >> yeah.

[01:46:28]>> But all that to say like you know I think there is >> something about the you know human nature, human soul that I think that speaks to a bit. Um, yeah, because I'm I guess you could say maybe hippie- dippy.

[01:46:43]think there are other uh traditions for it but I think there are many paths to you know many paths to enlightenment you know many paths to spiritual fulfillment as long as you have one um kind of like you said I think >> in you know there are I would say you know maybe capital P problematic um expressions of essentially any religious tradition but I think it's a good starting point even if it's like a more secularized or liberalized version like you know reformed Judaism, UCCC, what have you or even like you know some of the more uh secular progressive stuff. I think it's at least to me I'm kind of like you. I'm becoming more of a a moralizer and less like hey do your own thing man as I as I age. So I think that's something that I think is going to become more and more important.

[01:47:37]>> Yeah, I agree. And I think I think the many passing my Jewish tradition, little Jewish tradition has a good line about this where it's like uh it's a metaphor.

[01:47:48]So, you know, you're standing behind a fence and there's a tree on the other side. Um or there's like multiple trees on the other side and they look like multiple trees because you're behind the fence. You can't see that they're all going down to one trunk.

[01:48:01]>> And so it's like there are multiple ways to the trunk, but there's only one trunk, you know? So, it's not introducing this this strange idea that multiple things can be true at the same time that contradict each other, but there's multiple ways down to the truth, I believe, too. And um I think that atheists there's an atheist branch and there's a pagan branch and there's a Christian branch. And I I happen to think that the biggest branch is Judaism. But um >> how convenient.

[01:48:30]>> Oh yes, how convenient. Uh the biggest branch of course is my own. I do have Judaism, you know. Uh, so yeah, >> deepest root. No, I get it.

[01:48:39]>> So I think I just I like that metaphor where it's like it looks like all these different things, but actually there's one thing underneath it that they have a more or less tenuous grasp on.

[01:48:48]>> Yeah. And I guess I mean at least for me I mean there's obviously like a a shared tradition kind of like I said Christianity and Judaism you know at least from my historical and spiritual understanding branch from that like older older tradition of like you know the the same thing with Islam a lot of these other things and you have um these other influences zor zoroastrinism what have you um I think to me it's things that I find very interesting some people get very up in arms about the and then you can I think you can go too far on the other direction like ah it's all the same thing man which as a related note I feel like the biggest midwood opinion all of all time to me is like you know all these religions were just killing each other over minor differences man it's all the same no >> read a history book like these are shorthands for other like things in real life like political um ethnic technological differences that these you know minor differences became shorthand for um you know Protestant Reformation uh you know wars of religion what have you but that's neither here nor there I suppose.

[01:50:01]Yeah, I think um it's interest I mean Judaism hasn't we have our our uh sectarian conflicts for sure, but I since ancient times we haven't really had much like uh we haven't had like a wars of religion type thing because we haven't really had armies.

[01:50:22]>> Not a lot not enough of you really.

[01:50:24]>> Yeah. I mean now there's the state of Israel but it's like who's it what other Jewish state is it going to go to war with? Like is it going to split into Israel?

[01:50:32]>> New York, I guess. I mean, they're gonna declare war against New York or um Florida, I think, is the other big population.

[01:50:39]>> That's true. Yeah, they they would win because they're the ones with the army.

[01:50:43]But >> I feel like Yeah, Florida Jews might have the the upper hand just through the Florida man craftiness. But >> that's true. Yeah, they have like they ride alligators and stuff that I hear.

[01:50:52]>> Yeah, it's it's very like uh Vietkong style.

[01:50:56]>> I can see that. Yeah, I think the American Jews might stand a chance in that case, but >> yeah, I I admittedly don't know that much about like well obviously I know differences between Protestantism, Protestantism and Catholicism, but as far as like continental Europe, wars between different sects of Christianity, I don't I'm not >> super educated on that. I've actually read parts of Dominion, but not the whole thing. So, I'm sure once I actually sit down and plow through the whole thing, I'll be a little more educated on that.

[01:51:27]>> But, um, >> yeah, the idea that people are willing to fight and die over basically nothing is it's a little bit condescending to me. Yeah, it's very, you know, 13-year-old atheist type of uh Seth McFarland style humor, but >> I won't get into the weeds of uh but yeah, I mean like with Protestantism, it was like, you know, changes in technology, you know, the changes in society, like Protestantism became a convenient um one, it's a legitimate religious movement, but also like it was as society changed, Like I said, I don't want to get into the specifics because that could be um kind of getting into the weeds once again, but um I guess we're getting pretty close to two hours, so maybe we can start wrapping up. Do you have any any closing thoughts that you want to impart on, I guess?

[01:52:22]>> Um don't join if I start a second cult is probably a good thing, but uh no, otherwise I think I think I've said my piece.

[01:52:31]>> Okay. Um, do you want to give any plugs, promotions? You want to tell the audience your your blog and whatnot one more time?

[01:52:38]>> Yeah, so my blog is Overong Memories.

[01:52:40]Um, it's on hosted on Substack as with everything nowadays. And um, yeah, I've got I'm returning to the topic of femininity on there uh, over the course of probably a couple months. And yeah, I look forward to anyone who joins the conversation there.

[01:53:00]>> Yeah, check her out. She's uh Virginia is interesting and worth reading. So um I'll I'll end the show with the the question I always ask everybody. Uh you know what's something that makes you uh look forward something you look forward to in the future? Something you feel hopeful for.

[01:53:15]>> Um I think the the messiah will come. I look forward to that. But in general, I think that people are generally uh pretty cool and whatever difficulties come up, we'll figure out how to get over it. Um, and I think, yeah, so I have faith in God. I have faith in people. Okay. Well, I think that's a good note to end on.

[01:53:40]Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me.

[01:54:04]Heat. Heat.

[01:54:22]Heat. Heat.