How President Paul Kagame Rebuilt the RPA | Maj Okwir Rabwoni

Added: 2026-05-26

[00:00:00]Let's talk about your defeat and the withdrawal, the infamous withdraw into Uganda to lick your wounds.

[00:00:09]Is that the very first time that you see uh uh uh Aande, they used to call him a PC?

[00:00:18]>> Yes, >> that is uh >> now that's when he comes from the US.

[00:00:23]>> That's Pagami. That's when he does something very revolutionary that will never forget.

[00:00:31]He reorganizes and rebuilds broken arm.

[00:00:34]>> You were there. You witnessed it >> with my own eyes.

[00:00:37]>> How do you what actually happened?

[00:00:42]>> What happened? Of course the army with withdraws.

[00:00:45]>> People have died, others injured, they've been carried on stretches, others are dying of hunger.

[00:00:52]And now what he does when he arrives, first of all, he had a very good relationship with the Muz.

[00:01:03]>> He establishes a strong relationship with 7 and tells him this is the situation. We count on your support.

[00:01:13]You know, >> did you see that? Is that is that is that uh >> he was he was every week he would come here almost at that critical stage because Uganda was supplying weapons and ammo. Uganda, the sick bay, the sick bays were here for treating the wounded and the malnourished. And in fact, some of them were inji and then Kamuzi was the logistical center for food. The supporters of RPF would collect money and food takea because the N was on this side of the border. They would help make sure that the food goes to the fighters.

[00:01:57]So there was intense mobilization, medicines, food, clothing and >> where are you at this moment?

[00:02:06]>> At this m at this moment we are very near the border but on the Ugandan side >> you are there you personally.

[00:02:13]>> Yes.

[00:02:13]>> How many soldiers are there now? Now in our yog like 400 plus >> 400 >> yes there was a family I don't know whether it belonged toama that's where we were belated my unit at that time >> so out of the 800 that you had started with >> and not all of them had died others were sick >> and others were the majority were sick >> so were just hungry they were malnourished They couldn't walk. They couldn't stand >> for example was a popular struggle.

[00:03:01]>> People donated even poor people even people in refugee camps said the little that they had.

[00:03:09]And at this point you're just here trying licking your wounds trying to >> lick your wounds and and then training our other colleagues who had come when we were in the national park >> some people came from Tanzania >> on small boats and >> then when we crossed this side now a host of people large numbers would come at night from the refugee camps very young people >> to join us.

[00:03:37]So we hid them and told them we're going to find space for a training wing. Then later on we took them back to Mara for training.

[00:03:48]So they trained in western Uganda came back to Venas on the front lines. So after these preparations, >> how long are you close to the border?

[00:03:59]>> Very very close. Because at night we would go back >> and do what?

[00:04:03]>> Hit enemy positions and come back to Uganda. No, but what I mean is how long were you there in that space?

[00:04:09]>> We are there for like a month and a half.

[00:04:13]>> And that's how we enter now the Christmas less than a month. Mhm.

[00:04:20]>> The Christmas of of 1990 finds us in intense preparations another front cuz we had realized that it would be full hard to keep this the tactics of a frontal attacks against the enemy because he was mechanized. We were not and they had bigger numbers. So this is where the now president Kagabi >> the then chairman of high command he had been already u agreed upon unanimously to lead the struggle.

[00:04:56]>> The there was no there are no rivals.

[00:04:59]>> No everybody knew that he was the right man to do it.

[00:05:03]>> Why?

[00:05:04]>> One the army needed a highly disciplined officer to put it together again. Two, he had shared many secrets with Fred.

[00:05:14]Three, he was close to the presence of Ugard.

[00:05:20]Four, he had the military qualifications and experience be able to do it. So, he had so many positives and because we needed Uganda so much and he was so close the president of Uganda that was sorted. Then for own forces they they knew that he was needed because discipline was necessary >> and as I told you he was stickle discipline people would see him and so he reorganizes us we form new units we get clothes we get food we and now he's planning the attack on Roheneri open a new and he sends to go and do the reconnaissance >> but and that was was that were you still with him at this point?

[00:06:13]>> Yes, I'm still with >> So they you guys go >> we went in end of January >> I think like 20 we went on the 22nd.

[00:06:22]>> Mhm.

[00:06:22]>> We hid in the mountains for a couple of days. We attacked on the 23rd.

[00:06:26]>> How many are you at this point?

[00:06:28]>> Like 1,500 now. We we formed the the chairman of high command general formed the columns.

[00:06:38]So the battalions are being merged in two columns. You get two or three battalions put them together so that you have a concentration of officers formations that are big enough and at the same time concentration of arms and ar have a force that is strong enough to resist on its own without reinforcements. H >> and move quickly at the same time.

[00:07:05]So Kar is in charge.

[00:07:08]>> Who's who's his twice?

[00:07:12]>> His at that time was a very young man called >> Karangu.

[00:07:17]>> I think he died after the war. M >> and where are you in this the cuz you're also still one of the probably the more experienced fighters.

[00:07:30]>> Yes. All of us had companies.

[00:07:33]>> So you're leading how many men?

[00:07:35]>> That time like 120 between 120 they would always 120 150.

[00:07:41]>> So you're leading 120.

[00:07:44]>> Well well armed.

[00:07:46]>> What what language are you speaking at this point? I'm speaking soil >> because the majority of the soldiers had been here >> and the language for the military here is and English but I'm also struggling to learn >> fact what saved me is when we went deeper inside Rwanda >> and I couldn't speak Swahili neither would I speak English so I had to speak >> as a commander of a 100 men what what your story is about Fred and and how and what it meant to be a commander. It it it the soldiers must see themselves in their commander to be able to then trust the commander's direction.

[00:08:33]>> But you obviously as no one hid the fact that you're not from around >> No, they liked me. I was a sort of celebrity. So no one did not they did not they did not your soldiers did they did not they felt >> they did not feel a problem that >> was this stranger >> no for them for them I was a some of them thought I was awanda but who had been born in diaspora had no chance of learning the language >> because people from western Uganda and from Rwanda and we look alike some of our people look like you guys. M >> so they said maybe this young man is a in fact when the more I would deny the more it became funny sometimes you have to accept >> because the more deny the more they would >> emphasize the fact that why you lying >> you why are you lying we are no longer just claim your nationality say okay okay So we interacted a lot. Now I was beginning to learn some I could speak >> and now when I learned to speak speech in Rwanda president said but this guy can be a political commisser.

[00:10:02]>> This is after the attack on said this guy can be a political commisser.

[00:10:10]They said why can be a political commissioner? Said Okiri knows a lot of things in his head. I know him well. I work with him. Then secondly, it will help him learn.

[00:10:24]You should have seen me teaching their history.

[00:10:29]>> This is 91. This is what 92.

[00:10:32]>> This is what 91 92.

[00:10:34]>> End of 90. End of 90. Beginning of 91.

[00:10:37]you you've become a you're no longer a frontline troop. You are >> I'm a political commissioner.

[00:10:45]>> Now of course by that time there was no big difference between the front the whole unit would move to the front.

[00:10:51]>> Nobody would remain behind.

[00:10:54]>> So even when you had a base in Uganda all of you would move and go to fight then come back.

[00:11:02]So we I learned quickly and started teaching what happened in 1959 and and the role of the Catholic Church and the Belgian government in the first genocide cuz I believe the first genocide was 59 in those years and then I did not know at that time that there would be another genocide which will be more ferocious than the one on 1959 that brought the first refugees here.

[00:11:36]>> And as a fighting again, the the the thinking is is is extraordinary because you you've seen you've you're fighting the issues, there's challenges.

[00:11:52]How good were how good was how how good was the enemy at fighting?

[00:12:01]The enemy was lousy at the beginning but had the backbone of French and of course the congalles. But when the congalles left after peace accord they caught on the land very quickly >> and we fought fierce battles in mut and >> what made them so good >> they had wood officers. I remember if we fast forward, we could go back. If we fast forward and talk about the operations of 94 >> to stop genocide, >> there was an an officer called they had divided northern Rwanda into three operational regions.

[00:12:42]>> There was ops Mutara which was commanded by Kongund.

[00:12:48]Then there was ops bumba which was commanded by brigadier general kavaten.

[00:12:58]>> Then opsenjeri which was commanded by major general >> those were Belgian trained officers.

[00:13:08]All of them they their names ended with BM B >> Britain many Belgian militarymies.

[00:13:17]So they knew what to do only that they lacked experience and we gave it to them >> by fighting >> by fighting and by seeing the way we're doing it. Whenever we dislodge them from a position overran a town they would learn how we've done it and then whenever they would get a chance of capturing our weapons they would study it because they were not they were used NATO weapons.

[00:13:39]>> They do not understand the weapons from China and the Soviet Union.

[00:13:43]So they would study them and then use them against us.

[00:13:48]So we had battles of attrition in in Mut especially where the terrain was favorable to them and the losses we took in Mut were more than in Bumb because the terrain was favorable to motorized warfare.

[00:14:04]So but finally the the one and the RPF soldier was so tenacious that he couldn't defeat him.

[00:14:13]He couldn't defeat because they had no alternative >> going to the refugee camp going back to refugee camp in Uganda was not an alternative.

[00:14:26]>> Why not? So we beat them with >> why why wasn't it and all they they I hear many people talk about that that we couldn't go back but actually you could >> but you would go back to humiliation.

[00:14:38]>> Hey if you like this snippet there's a lot more waiting for you on the long form podcast YouTube channel. Go check out the full conversation.