Infiltration to Takeover: The Organisational Psychopath

[00:00:02]Hello everyone. Trying to get myself sorted here. Uh running a little bit late there so I apologize. Um thanks for joining me again this evening. Uh this I'm going to be looking at the organizational psychopath. Okay, this is the person who ingratiates themselves into a company, into an organization, into a little movement, into a little group. It could be someone who ingratiates themselves into a family. Um, you know, they start dating the son, the daughter or whatever.

[00:00:41]And I'm going to be looking at this through the framework of uh Dr. Fiona Gerkin, who if anybody's interested, I spoke to her, I think it might have been about a month ago, where we talked about she she's done a lot of work on female psychopaths. If you want to have a look at at that interview, although a lot of her work is focusing really on on female psychopaths, I think that I think there can be a lot of crossover. Okay. Uh I think the difference is she states how um women can uh use a lot of relational sort of uh stuff to to get what they want. Uh men can be a bit more overt, a bit more aggressive, but I think there can be a lot of crossover. Okay. Sometimes you get a bit of both. Um and her framework she talks about these these six phases of the organizational psychopath not necessarily presented as a clinical diagnosis but more this observable pattern of behavior.

[00:01:50]Um, as I said, she would she believes female psychopaths operate more covertly than their male counterparts, relying on things like relational aggression, charm, gaslighting, whereas men can be much more overt. Even though there is still the charm, the gaslighting is so they can be a bit more overt and a bit more aggressive. Okay, but yeah, there is a lot of crossovers and I believe the tactics although they might vary. Okay, the tactics might vary. The strategy is pretty much the same thing. And typically when we think of uh psychopaths, a lot of time we're thinking of maybe po impulse control.

[00:02:33]Not necessarily. She describes some of them as like sleeper sales. Um they can be very amicable, very amiable, um very charming, very likable, but only until their position or their goals get threatened or someone stands in their way. Okay. Um also she has um she has a PDF outlining a lot of this.

[00:02:58]If you go to her channel page, there should be a link to that. There'll certainly should be a link to her website and so on. And you can have a look at her work. But she she talks about the organizal or organizational psychopath. She summarizes this arc, this strategy, if you will, is from charm to chaos.

[00:03:23]And that's what I'm going to be looking at this evening. Now, although this would apply largely to the workplace, as I said, I do believe that the the same kind of tactics you would see if someone gets involved in maybe a little community group, some kind of organization.

[00:03:41]uh as I said even even if they ingratiate themselves into a family through maybe dating one of the family members or whatever but what it begins with is what she describes as maybe the job application stage.

[00:03:57]Um, so you see this false narrative. So if it's a workplace, the psychopath is maybe going to submit a very highly polished, even a very compelling CV or resume if you're American. Um, cover letters, but they're things that are really designed to stand out. Um, if they have maybe joined a little group, it's the same kind of thing. They will come with um amazing credentials, a lot of experience in this area, a lot of passion for whatever it is.

[00:04:30]Little family dynamics. Um they're going to be the nicest, loveliest person you've ever met. They've got really good prospects. They've got really good character. They've got amazing manners and things like that. But let's stick to the workplace. you get this you get this CV this resume that's maybe going to exaggerate a lot of their qualifications for instance they're level one in certificate in something is almost like a diploma a degree or even a master's in something okay uh so they're exaggerating their qualifications and their credentials there's terrible pterodactyl flying around in here um they will also inflate their their their experience what might have been a sixth month work placement or something. They will talk about having years of experience. Um they'll exaggerate the responsibilities they had during that time. They were in positions of leadership or or whatever.

[00:05:34]But they are an exceptionally qualified experienced person. They are the ideal candidate. They would be the perfect person to join that little committee.

[00:05:44]They would be the perfect son-in-law, the perfect daughter-in-law, the perfect stepparent, whatever it happens to be.

[00:05:51]They will present themselves to be exceptional.

[00:05:55]They will be the perfect fit. Um, they will talk about things like how much they care about things, how good they are at collaborating with others in little projects, talking over their past successes, which might have had nothing to do with them. could have been other people that were uh doing these things.

[00:06:15]They're just taking credit for it and often glossing over any gaps or discrepancies there might be.

[00:06:25]They can be so charming that any discrepancies or anything somebody picks up might even be downplayed. Okay, it's just maybe the lapse of memory or or whatever. But as I say, they will present themselves as being the perfect fit. They are professional. They are well-mannered. They are courteous. They have good prospects. They have lots of experience and so on. They have a lot of passion for and experience working in this particular area. They were able to do this. They have accomplished that.

[00:06:59]In those early stages, they might not necessarily talk about the last places they worked, the last group they were involved in, their their the exartner they had or whatever about them being horrible, things falling apart due to incompetence or corruption or whatever, no matter how much they tried to make things better, those initial stages, those things are kept out of the equation. Okay? Those things are kept quiet about.

[00:07:26]But what you might find is a lot of the claims they make in those early stages come they're they're quite unverifiable.

[00:07:34]Okay? Because maybe the people they're talking about either don't exist or they've moved on um or or they're not available for for some reason.

[00:07:45]But what we get then the second stage what we get is if you will it's if it's a job maybe it's the interview stage and what we see is a debut performance.

[00:07:54]Okay, dark personality types, predatory types are very good at image presentation.

[00:08:04]False um let me see, first impression management, I think is a good term.

[00:08:10]They're very good at presenting themselves in a certain way and they start to sell this narrative that they've made up. Uh they again they're being charming.

[00:08:23]They can prepare for the roles. They can prepare for any questions that might come up. It's just like you would in any interview I guess.

[00:08:32]But even in just in social situations, uh they can prepare using um you using little anecdotes maybe they've taken from other people uh other people's experiences, anything at all that sells sells the false narrative.

[00:08:51]Now in a job situation they probably just like we all would they have really researched the organization very thoroughly even tried to find out about the people at the top uh the people who may be interviewing them. So they'll be dropping certain certain details specific details as if they are very insightful. They're already aligned with that group's needs.

[00:09:19]their their mission statement, whatever that the the company's needs, um that family's values, uh they're all they're they are aligned with those things.

[00:09:31]That's exactly what they're like. They want the same thing. They believe in the same kind of thing. So, they're going to come across as as charming, very composed, very professional, very approachable. They're going to be intelligent, confident, but the very highly skilled predatory types will balance this with maybe just the right amount of humility.

[00:09:56]For instance, in the job interview, they might be asked, you know, give me an example when you failed at something. So they will give a uh pardon me they could give an example not necessarily blaming other people but they might give an example where they tried something and failed so had to go and learn new skills or a new way of doing something in order to be able to deal with it. So what you see is like a a false kind of humility.

[00:10:28]They might also emphasize things like teamwork. So they're not necessarily going to take the credit for everything they did in those early stages. They might talk about how they were able to galvanize a team, motivate a team where everyone was able to pull together. Um they will be shown a lot of empathy and understanding you know people in the organization, people in the group. Um people struggle for various different reasons. I understand that and here's how I try to encourage and motiv motivate people. Um not again in this early stage not necessarily talking about any past issues they may have had with other members of staff, other partners, other groups that they were involved with that still kept quiet at this stage.

[00:11:23]What you might find is uh their references, if it's a job, for instance, are handpicked. Usually, they're enablers, they're um supporters, things like that. Either that or they are vague, but they're still composed, intelligent, and very likable.

[00:11:42]And they come across in such a way that it would be maybe it would seem difficult not to offer them the role because again, they are that perfect fit. they come across as that perfect fit.

[00:11:54]Now the community group, the company, the organization and the family accept them very quickly and very easy.

[00:12:03]They start to warm to them because of how they are presenting themselves.

[00:12:08]The next stage is what Dr. Geren refers to as the Trojan horse. Okay? Now, if you're familiar with the legend of the Trojan horse, um you know, they built this huge big wooden horse, left it outside the the city of Troy. They hid inside it. You know, the Trojans brought it in thinking it was a gift or whatever, only to find that there were um you know, a lot of soldiers inside it and they just came out, opened the gates and you know, let everybody in and they were taken over.

[00:12:43]So, what you're really looking at is this Trojan horse, this idea of going in under the radar, um, sneaking in as if they are a gift, as if they are a good fit. And they do this by being maybe outwardly helpful, likable.

[00:13:00]While they're doing that though is they are they're maybe alliance building. They are finding out who is useful and who isn't. Who has power and responsibility, who would just make a good supporter, who could they find as a scapegoat if something goes wrong. So there's a bit of reconnaissance going on, alliance building, information gathering, but these things are these relationships are are very surface level.

[00:13:32]There isn't really anything genuine about them. Okay. So this person uh accepts the role. Uh they arrive confidently. The family have accepted them. They are now you know dating one of the kids or whatever. Um they come across as warm and friendly.

[00:13:51]They can be energetic, enthusiastic.

[00:13:55]Um they become very popular with fellow workmates, other people in that little group. uh they become very popular with maybe siblings or whatever. Um very sociable, likable.

[00:14:10]So they they come across as being very personal, personable. Nearly invented a word there. Come across as being very personable and very capable, very likable as I say, but also very supportive, very attentive, and often full of good ideas.

[00:14:30]These ideas on the surface might seem like good ideas, but in practice maybe not so much. Okay? Um, you know, just simple as if it worries you, just don't think about it. You know, something ridiculous like that. But they're they're still coming across as as being helpful. And those early interactions, they are very supportive. Like I said, they are mapping out that little group, that little family, that little company, whatever it is. They're identifying power structures, but they're also identifying vulnerabilities.

[00:15:04]Who is influential? Who is popular? Who is maybe a potential threat? Who could be a potential ally? And ultimately, who could be a potential maybe scapegoat or a target.

[00:15:18]If it's uh if it's a job they've got, uh the people that hire them feel very validated because other people seem to think they're very good. They're good at what they do. They speak highly of them.

[00:15:29]They've been warmed to very quickly.

[00:15:31]People like their friendliness. They like their energy.

[00:15:36]Now, those relationships, as I said, that they start to build, they're not deep friendships. They're not even necessarily uh good professional relationships.

[00:15:46]They're more like strategic relationships that they're building.

[00:15:50]Again, who's useful? Who isn't? At the same time, there'll be little boundary tests, little subtle ones. That could be asking for small favors, information sharing. That could be um that could be maybe letting someone down at the last moment. It's not their fault they had arranged to do this. It's just that something came up. So there's little things start to happen just to test boundaries, just to test how flexible are some people, how open to um how open are they to being accommodating and so on. So they're testing little boundaries.

[00:16:34]They they also position themselves um as being very ambitious. um they could be very solutionorientated.

[00:16:45]So there comes a problem, they're already looking at what the solution is, not necessarily looking what that solution is going to cost people or the impact it's going to have on maybe the staff or the other members, but they might claim they're just being solution focused. They're just being pragmatic.

[00:17:05]the whole time they're concealing their true selfserving agenda.

[00:17:11]So I was thinking a moment ago as I was saying about they're they're testing the little boundaries. The whole time they're doing this they are observing people's reactions to them. Okay.

[00:17:24]Who's going to be open to compromise?

[00:17:28]Who's going to be open to maybe ultimately being bullied? Who's going to stand their ground? who's not going to put up with their nonsense. Okay. But really, as they're testing these little boundaries, as they're gathering information, they're looking at ways they can use this information to further their own agenda or to ultimately to divide and conquer.

[00:17:50]Um, if that's what they need to do, if there's going to be some kind of disharmony, if there's going to be people pointing things out, how do they get people on their side? How do they get people?

[00:18:02]How do they make the people who point out the problems be the problem? Okay.

[00:18:08]Rather than the problem itself.

[00:18:16]Every week I bring a glass of Coke up with me. And I keep thinking every week, same thing. I should bring up a glass of water because the thing about Coke is it is nice, but it doesn't really satiate your thirst if you know what I mean. Um, water is much better for you. Uh, right.

[00:18:36]Where did I get to? Where's my Let's list. Okay. Yeah. Stage number four is the jackal and hide in that person starts to emerge. So what you start to see is the problematic, the difficult behavior starts to come to the forefront. The the mask begins to slip.

[00:18:57]They start to become a bit inconsistent.

[00:19:01]Their toxic behaviors start to appear, but again, it's very subtle at first, but they are still uh they're still coming out. So that person still might be charming and cooperative um with maybe the people in charge like um you know the management, the chairperson, parents or whatever. You know they're still being charming, they're still being cooperative, they're still being nice. or if it is like if it's in a workplace um to their inner circle but they start to become dismissive, controlling or even nasty towards people they consider to be perceived threats.

[00:19:44]So you might see a little bit of gossip things like that might start to create or point out disharmony if they see someone as a perceived threat. for instance, um, your brother has it in for me. Your brother really doesn't like me. I think your brother's trying to break us up or whatever. So, they're again starting to create that divide and conquer sort of, uh, dynamic when they are established.

[00:20:15]Um, I think that's when the behavior starts to become more inconsistent. Again, they can be very nice and charming with some group, particularly those above them, those in senior positions. They can be very dismissive, bullying those beneath them. They could be claiming um they could be saying one thing and doing something else. They could be making promises to do something but not following it through and then blaming others.

[00:20:48]But again with the testing of the boundaries and sometimes that impulse control um as much as they can be good at reing it in sometimes it's going to leak out. So there could be little incident incidents of aggression.

[00:21:02]There is undermining there are jokes with jags. There's sarcasm.

[00:21:08]There's gossiping. There is the relational aggression. Things start to become personalized.

[00:21:15]Um but there is also things like taking the credit for other people's work.

[00:21:21]There could be um gossip. Uh there could be exclusion, isolating people. Again, backhanded comments. Um underhanded so-called compliments. Okay, these things are often dismissed as misunderstandings.

[00:21:40]Okay, I think you picked me up wrong.

[00:21:43]Sometimes you get a really uh highly skilled predator who's able to do or say something that you know is it's it's like a cut, okay? It's like they just jabbed you with something, but they're able to do it in such a way that it's not breaking the rules. They haven't swore at you.

[00:22:03]They haven't insulted you. They haven't done anything. Um, good example I think of people who use the rules to dominate and control others would be the nurse ratchet character from One Flew Over the Cookies Nest. Okay, that's an an excellent example of someone who uses the rules to control and dominate. As I say, yeah, there's jokes with Jags, but there's the subtle crossing of boundaries. There's the insults.

[00:22:29]These are often labeled as misunderstandings. the person on the wrong end of this has just got the wrong idea. They are overreacting or whatever because they're often presented and even to outsiders that might seem as minor.

[00:22:44]They're just an isolated incident or they're ambiguous. No one quite knows what it means. It's an isolated thing.

[00:22:51]You know, maybe they were they were lacking patience because they just come out of a very difficult meeting. There's stuff going on at home. um they've just had a bad day, whatever it is. So there's no illwell meant, there's no bad intent.

[00:23:09]But the thing is, it's not everyone who's noticing these things.

[00:23:13]Um even some of the gossip they might put out there that is causing disharmony. Not everyone is noticing that that is being connected. They can't connect it to them. Okay? In other words, that mask is only starting to slip in some situations for some people.

[00:23:32]Now, some of the information they might have picked up in the early stages, that's where you know things like personal conversations, people um sharing their ideas, sharing their secrets. What that predatory person has been doing is they had been maybe sharing things about themselves, even if they were just making things up, but they were doing it to encourage the other person to share things about themselves. So, they're trying to create some kind of false bond there. You know, we can talk about personal things here, but later on that's when you start to see these things being weaponized as information against the very person that was telling them. Okay? They've been data mining anything that they can use.

[00:24:26]The fifth stage is the escalation and the response stage. So things start to escalate.

[00:24:35]Um again the fight orflight stage she calls it. Okay. So this is when the environment starts to become tense. Uh it starts to become unsafe. There's a there's uh overt aggression. There's covert aggression. Things start to intensify.

[00:24:53]And this is forcing well not maybe that's the wrong word but this brings up reactions from other people. Okay. um being treated badly, being let down for the last time, being lied to or lied about, being continually undermined, being continually criticized that brings about a reaction. Again, typically um talk about things like Daro, reactive abuse and so on. It's the person's response, the person's reaction that gets focused on not what they have been doing to um to bring this reaction about to trigger this reaction. The groups start to become divided. The family are maybe splitting over one person seeing it for what it really is.

[00:25:40]See what this is person is doing. But the others in the family maybe think they're overreacting. the other per other people in the family are not seeing what this person is seeing.

[00:25:52]They're not being treated the way this person is being treated. Um the in workplaces the atmosphere starts to deteriorate.

[00:26:00]There's a lot of tension. Um there's a lot of undermining and gaslighting as well. People are being led to believe that what happened in the previous meeting never happened. This was never agreed or whatever.

[00:26:16]Pardon me.

[00:26:18]the the uh acts of of um undermining the the sarcasm, the putdowns, these start to become more frequent and they are a lot more noticeable. Okay. There's also maybe a lot of rumors circulating uh the people who are being or the person uh that are being bullied that are being targeted. Um you find people turning on each other. There is maybe social isolation. People are being ostracized. They're not being included.

[00:26:50]Blameshifting also starts to become normalized.

[00:26:56]What this one person has started doing, you might find other people doing as well. So if it's a workplace, something starts to go wrong.

[00:27:04]Even if it's got nothing to do with them, they're not thinking, well, how did that happen? Or how do we do to fix it? first thing they will come out with, the first thing that jumps into their head, it be oh well that was that must have been this person's fault or that would have been that was odd. I didn't even set an alarm. Um maybe I didn't. I can't remember. I'm at a funny age. What can I say? Don't know why the hell that went off. Um what was I talking about? where I get to my crazy mind when I lose track of something. Um yeah. Yeah. Um things start to become normalized.

[00:27:45]Blameshifting, fingerpointing starts to become normalized. So if something goes wrong, people aren't necessarily thinking about what went wrong, how it went wrong, how do we fix it. It becomes more about well that was that person's fault because that's now become the culture. Okay. Fingerpointing culture.

[00:28:03]Anybody who has been targeted and bullied start to feel isolated. They feel anxious. They um maybe aren't sure who to trust, who to share anything with. In workplaces, uh there's a high starts to become a high turnover of staff. There's a lot of sick leave and everybody's complaining about the stress they're under. And it's not just the workload, it's the nature of the work. It's the fact that maybe nothing they ever do is good enough. Their ideas, their accomplishments are taken from them.

[00:28:38]Someone else is taking credit for them and they're being blamed on all the crap.

[00:28:47]People in that little group, that company, whatever, um are starting to think more and more about what it is they have to do. their their normal reactions to something. They're afraid to react in a normal way to something.

[00:29:01]Um, just like you would find in maybe a narcissistic abusive relationship, they don't want to be too happy about something. They don't want to feel too pleased for something, but they don't want to be angry about something either.

[00:29:15]Um, they don't know uh how to confront.

[00:29:20]They're not sure who they should report this to, if they could report it. If they do report it, is it only going to get worse? Uh do they document things or do they just maybe get out of there? Do they just quit? Do they find a way out of there? Even just quietly quit. Maybe if it's a little group, maybe one day they just don't come back. You know, um the psychopathic person, they are looking at how to react to certain things as well. Again, if you think of that nurse ratchet character never once raises her voice, it's almost this little kind of um how would you phrase it? It's speaking to speak, you know, speaking as if they're in HR memo or something, you know, that it's almost emotionless. Okay. Um, as things start to escalate and there is retaliation, people do start to point out what they are doing wrong. That's when you see that psychopath using tactics such as Darbo, which is denying what it is they're accused of and attacking the person who has maybe pointed out the fault, the error, the bullying. they start to become the victim because they are being they're the ones who are being targeted. Okay. Sometimes what you might find is that person then goes off on sick leave or takes a leave of absent absence because they claim they're the one who's being bullied. They're under work related stress and pressure because they are being bullied. Either that or they are still maintaining a very polished front to other people especially those senior to them. It is the targets who are causing the problem.

[00:31:04]It is the people who keep putting in these complaints that are causing the problem. There's an agenda against them.

[00:31:11]There seems to be some kind of conspiracy against them.

[00:31:17]If they are in a position of management or something themselves, what you might find is they might be giving their staff very vague instructions, contradictory instructions, um asking them to do things that maybe have nothing to do with their job or their role at all. They create a lot of confusion. There can be a lot of mistakes. People are very afraid to make a mistake or to get anything wrong. And this is the thing. Did you ever notice the harder you try not to make a mistake, inevitably what is it you do?

[00:31:51]You end up making a mistake because we're so hyperfocused on not getting something wrong, we're not actually paying attention to what's in front of us. So, uh, we usually end up making a mistake.

[00:32:04]But because of this blame culture they're in, even those that are being targeted, they might make a mistake and that fingerpointing culture, they start to put the blame on others as well. that psychopathic person who's now in a position of management. Yeah. They are pointing out every error, every mistake they are micromanage, micromanaging um their retaliations to certain behavior, especially if they're challenged. Um oh, they're can fly into a rage. So there could be yelling, there could be insulting, there could be threats of that person losing their position. Little uh punishments, even just little things like denying someone leave. You know, they want to book a bit of time off. No, you can't do that. Then they'll make up some reason why that person can't book the leave that they're entitled to.

[00:33:01]Um, there could be having people removed from their little group. Uh, whether it's their department, whether it's the committee that they're a part of or whatever. Try to get people removed from the group for either challenging them, confronting them somehow, or at the bare minimum for not going along with their schemes. Okay. And that leads me on to uh the last stage, what's uh Fiona calls the bad apple. And this is the damage that they cause, the damage stage, the damage to the family.

[00:33:40]They've ingratiated themselves into the damage to that company, that organization, that group because the toxicity has now spread. there is a very unhealthy, toxic, damaging c culture.

[00:33:57]Productivity is down. Um the things that they had initially set out to do are not even on the agenda anymore because there's so much firefighting going on, so much trying to um it's damage control really by this stage if you know what I mean. If it's a company, there's a it's very hard to keep staff. Uh people might come best will six months, maybe a year later, they're gone again and they're glad to be out of there because that that psychopathic person, their influence has spread. Uh their behavior, their attitude has just spoiled the whole damn thing. I used to say that you know narcissism not just narcissism but when you get this um mix of cluster B type behaviors it is inherently destructive it tends to destroy things from the inside thing is though if it can't destroy it from the inside such as they get fired or they get expelled or whatever it happens to be or they get dumped you know if they can no longer destroy it from the inside they tend to try to destroy it from the outside here we see a very vindictive streak in them. Okay.

[00:35:16]But one way or another that kind that behavior spoils everything for everyone.

[00:35:21]It is so destructive. Their behavior their attitude creates chaos everywhere.

[00:35:27]So there's infighting. There's little that divide and conquer tactic has created um little groups, little silos, little clicks if you will. there is a mass exodus of good people, good staff, good members. Um, so the only people they have left are the only people they're getting in to this psychopath.

[00:35:51]It doesn't matter how good or bad they are. They just want um enablers. They just want followers. It's like they've created their own little cult. Okay, there's um morale as plummeting and there is a lack of trust. There's fractured trust in the place. So people start to leave the workplace, they start to leave the group. And if it's a family unit, it's the family that becomes divided. Okay? Brother against sister, parents against kids, whatever it happens to be, you know, this family against in-laws against relatives, they've just become divided because of this toxic behavior. So what you see is is like broader harm as that behavior has leaked out. Um as I say there's declining morale, declining productivity, there's increased conflict, exodus of good pe of good members of staff, there's family members no longer speaking to each other.

[00:36:52]There's a polarization.

[00:36:55]Um you're either in this group or you're in that group. there's no meeting in the middle. Uh as I say, they become uh little silos.

[00:37:05]If it's in a workplace, if it's an organization, you might find there's a lot of complaints, a lot of formal complaints.

[00:37:14]In some cases, these complaints might be ineffective due to that that psychopathic person's manipulation, their ability to use the rules to their advantage. As I mentioned a moment ago, they might claim that this is um this is a conspiracy against them.

[00:37:36]There's a group of people who have it in for them. Um you know, people in human resources, the managers above them or their fellow workmates or whatever are actually bullying them. So they end up going off on stress leave. As I say, they are the ones who are being bullied.

[00:37:56]There's also within those little groups, there's performance issues. Um, say productivity is down. People are lacking faith in their own abilities, their own ability to even recognize reality anymore. There is a fear that you don't know who to trust. You don't know who's on this person's side and who isn't. You don't know who it's feel who it feels safe to talk to. Okay.

[00:38:26]as this person, as this psychopathic person um starts to maybe work their way up through the the the corporate ladder, the ranks, whatever it is, maybe they become the manager, the managing director, maybe they become the chairperson, whatever it is. Um you find that they are climbing over other people, other people that have been useful to get them where they are. There are no further use. They are discarded.

[00:38:56]They are thrown out of the way. They're thrown under the bus, I think the expression is. But they climb over a lot of wreckage to get to the top. To hell with the consequences, to hell with the casualties. It's more about them getting what they want. Either that or they have just destroyed the thing. They've destroyed the family. They've destroyed the dynamics, the relationships within that family. they have destroyed um that company, that group and then they just leave. They go somewhere else um leaving chaos and wreckage behind them.

[00:39:36]The toxic culture has become entrenched.

[00:39:41]So that psychopathic person uh as I say they either move on or they get to rule over the chaos. And and uh something just come to mind as I was saying that reminds me of um Milton uh writing Paradise Lost. There's a line in it.

[00:40:02]There's a line in it about it's better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven.

[00:40:07]Okay. So sometimes that's the mindset of the people that you're dealing with.

[00:40:11]They would rather everything be toxic, unproductive, chaotic than just be a part of something that is cohesive and works very well, does exactly what it's meant to do and everybody's happy.

[00:40:28]Other times, yeah, they will just go, they will leave, leaving the chaos behind them. So that's Dr. Fiona's uh Dr. Fiona Geren's framework that explains how one single toxic psychopathic person can systematically take over um any kind of group um how they do it through the charm and then the gradual erosion. Now as I say uh you I think she probably talks about this better than I do on her channel. It is of course her work, but she does have a PDF available um that will outline it certainly better than I could. Uh if you go on to her channel, that will take you to a link, I'm sure, to her website. But I thought that was uh I thought that was very interesting how she outlines how they actually do it. Those those six phases she calls them. Um so I hope you find it interesting too. It is something I would I've been looking at more as I look at her work and I'm comparing it to the work of Karen Mitchell. I know there are differences but there are some crossovers particularly in uh the predatory personality type, the psychopathic type and the different tactics and strategies that they use.

[00:41:54]So, um going to do what I always do. I'm going to go back to the the beginning and I'm going to where's me chat button. There we go. I'm going to have a look at any questions.

[00:42:09]Anybody has any questions, do please put a question mark. It's going to be so easy for me to find. So, uh first of all, hello everybody who's saying hello.

[00:42:18]Um so Denise is asking in case you see this, which the first one I've seen. So, yep. Have I seen the book by an Wilson Sha? If I pronounced it right, the addictive organization. She makes a compelling case that an addict sometimes comorbid with psychopathy.

[00:42:38]At the top creates a ripple effect through the company of expressing demanding the behavior of addicts.

[00:42:45]It's out in the 1980s. See how the addictive organization is often comorbid with a narcissistic organization.

[00:42:52]Appreciate your take on it.

[00:42:56]Yeah. Um, EG Khan in his first episode when he was lovebombing the Enterprise staff officer. Uh, yeah, I am not familiar with that book, but I am familiar with the concept. Um, it is I think it sounds very much like what I outlined tonight. Um, yeah. In order to ingratiate themselves into someone's company. Yeah. just like canon. He's going to be charming. He's going to be friendly. Um he's going to be very pleasant. He's very well-mannered. And you typically find that with predatory types. They don't turn up um with sharp claws and fangs and I'm going to eat you for dinner. You know, they generally don't do that.

[00:43:41]They're charming and they're friendly.

[00:43:43]They're very beguiling. Okay. So, uh yeah. So, hello Michael.

[00:43:50]Uh where you get to Oh, just jumped.

[00:43:58]Hello everybody. Hello everybody who's saying hello. Uh psychopath Cynthia saying yes goal orientated. Many are um yes the goal orientated the more um those with more machavelian traits those with good impulse control can think long term.

[00:44:17]Okay. So they can they can think in terms of next week, next month, next year, 10 years from now. So they have a strategy. Um other times what you find is per impulse control. So it's really just whatever comes into their head at that moment.

[00:44:35]Gimme, gimme, gimme. That's you see a lot of crimes being committed and so on.

[00:44:39]Uh breaking the rules, breaking the laws, things like that due to the low impulse control.

[00:44:46]Uh, so where do we go?

[00:44:50]Galaxy Glaze says there'll be no walking the plank until after the show. Walking the plank. I've never taken a plank for a walk. I don't know what that means.

[00:44:59]Maybe I'm confused.

[00:45:01]Um, where did you get to? And Sharon is saying, "Recommend the book Snakes and Suits by Paul Babiaak and Robert here."

[00:45:10]Uh, thank you for the recommendation, Snakes and Suits. Um, we get to again trying to find if you have a question, do please put a question mark.

[00:45:27]It's going to be so much easier for me to find. Someone's Sean's laughing at my alarm clock. Yeah, I I can't remember setting an alarm. I must have, but whatever I've set it for, I've forgotten.

[00:45:43]So, it hasn't done what it's meant to do. Anyway, um where do we get to?

[00:45:54]Uh constant fight or flight. If we're in an environment like that, yeah, where there is a lot of toxic behavior, we can be uh in a constant state of vigilance.

[00:46:05]Yeah.

[00:46:08]Um, this paper letter says, "Gaslighting is hilarious to me at this point. It's so obvious and ridiculous what is being said. I usually start laughing, which isn't the response they expect or appreciate." That's a very good point. A very poor gaslighter will just say something that comes across as ridiculous. Okay? You know, it's like me introducing myself to you. Hello, I'm the Nolan Sisters. You know what?

[00:46:36]there's one of you and you're a bloke, you know. Um, some of it can come across as really silly, really comical, but highly skilled, manipulative people don't just begin with telling you a lie.

[00:46:49]You find the gaslighting begins in small little ways. Like you could be telling them something, they might pick up on a certain detail. They just want a bit of clarity, but it's something you maybe you can't fully remember or it's maybe a little detail you get wrong, but then they start pointing out to you as time goes, well, you didn't remember that, right? So, what makes you think you're remembering this, right? Uh there's other ways they do it, but that's just a very uh subtle way that has happened not just in one conversation. Little things like that start to happen over weeks, months, sometimes even years before the ridiculous thing gets thrown into your face. Okay.

[00:47:34]All right. Okay. How do we get to I think people Shan is saying, I think people just expect to be able to treat you how they want, but when you stand up for yourself or speak out, holy hell breaks loose. Some people are like that.

[00:47:52]Some people can be like that. Again, some people it can be their sense of entitlement to believe they're superior or whatever. If you uh I'll just I'll think of an example. If you had say a manager in work, now it doesn't matter whether the managing director or whether they're just a supervisor just above you. Um yeah, they think they can be rude, to think they could be mean, to think they can tell you to go and clean their car for them at lunchtime or whatever.

[00:48:18]Whenever you point out, look, you hold you have more responsibility than me, you're at a different level than me, that does not necessarily um does not necessarily give you some kind of power over what I think, how I feel, and how I behave. Not necessarily.

[00:48:36]Um yeah, sometimes can break loose. Some people just don't like to be told no. I think sometimes it comes down to that.

[00:48:46]Um, we get to Oh, it's just jumped. Right. Okay. Get back again.

[00:48:57]Scroll back here.

[00:49:01]Uh oh. Trying to find where it was. I can't remember where it was.

[00:49:07]Okay. Well, I'll just try and pick up from here then. Where did I get to?

[00:49:12]Um, Galaxy Glaz says, "Thank God I'm retired. I so envy you. If I could afford it to retire tomorrow, I would.

[00:49:26]It's not that I don't like what I'm doing. Uh, I do like what I'm doing. I do like people and I do think it's an interesting line of work. It's a fascinating line of work. It's a privilege to meet so many people and to work with so many people. Um, but I'm so tired. I've been working since I don't know how this is going to sound really. I've been working since the last century.

[00:49:50]But yeah, um, yeah, I'd love to just I don't know, sail off into the sunset.

[00:49:56]I'd like to be able to work when I wanted to, not when I had to. I think that would be nice. Um, not going to happen for a long time though, unfortunately.

[00:50:06]At my rate of going, I'll be at my rate of going, I should be at least 112 when I'm able to retire. 112. Yeah.

[00:50:17]Okay. Anyway, get to I've just jumped again. I thought I'd find a question there.

[00:50:28]Um, sharing. Oh, right. Thank god I'm retired. Yes, that's where I was. So, let me uh uh spot on, Darren. I sometimes wonder if I should move, but unfortunately I haven't been able to do this so far.

[00:50:49]It is unfortunate. Um one way or another, I hope things work out for you.

[00:50:53]I hope that um maybe you do find a place, you are be able to get somewhere.

[00:50:59]Um it's difficult to heal in an environment that is hurting you. Um, I hope I hope some I hope I hope things do work out for you.

[00:51:11]Um, I just quoted Milton yesterday.

[00:51:14]Cheap thrill.

[00:51:20]Where' I get to?

[00:51:22]Yeah. Okay.

[00:51:26]Uh, is Oh, here's a question.

[00:51:32]B Real is asking, "Is it a common thing for an ASPD individuals to be constantly keep trying to make contact with their former partners even years later?" Um, I don't know if it's common or not. I think there could be something in in all of us to some degree where we might be curious. We might be curious. Um, you know, it's like if you bump into someone you dated years ago, now of course depending on how the relationship ended or even if it's someone you worked with years ago or a friend you had from years ago. Regardless, there is something whenever we bump into them, even if it's just out on the street and you know, it's oh, pleasant surprise. We have a chat. How's life since then? Some people might go on social media. They're just curious. They might go on to Facebook or whatever. um they're just curious about what that person's up to these days, what they look out. It doesn't necessarily go any further than that. Sometimes people will reach out to whether it's a former partner or not because they would like to have some kind of contact. Um but then there are some people that you know maybe they feel they have unfinished business. It could be different reasons. um you know something didn't work out for them. It could be uh maybe they want an apology, they want some kind of acknowledgement, they sometimes it could be they want to punish, you know, um they just want some kind of supply. There's a variety of different reasons, but it is it's put it this way. It's not uncommon for most of us to at least to some degree be curious about someone we used to know. Again, whether that was a partner, someone we worked with, a friend, whatever. Um, it's not uncommon. Where it gets maybe unhealthy is when it maybe develops into stalking or something. Um, not sure if I answered that, but okay. where we get to. Darn is such a gentle soul in my opinion. Thank you very much. That's very kind of you. You haven't seen how gentle I am when I hit my toe on the door or something, you know, or I fall down the stairs or something. I'm not so gentle.

[00:54:04]I sound like a banshee apparently. Um, okay. Maria is asking, "Is it possible to be a truth seer and not become a scapegoat? Be the person who sees the dirty games of the psychopath right from the beginning. Be someone unwilling to comply with the ugly ugly rules.

[00:54:27]That's an interesting question.

[00:54:36]I'm just going to speculate. I'm just going to give my thoughts. Not going to say this is a definitive answer.

[00:54:44]I think of the truth seer is maybe in a particular position such as they might imagine it's a workplace the truce seer is maybe someone in a senior position.

[00:55:00]Now, if that person in the senior position is not someone that they could put a complaint in against, that they could fabricate fabricate some kind of uh complaint if that person has something they want or need.

[00:55:21]Um, they might not necessarily be a scapegoat. Maybe not at first anyway, because remember they're of utility. But what you might find is that person's tactics begin to change trying to ingratiate themselves into their company to get what it is they need. Or they might try to induce conversations so that they will say something that will maybe get them into trouble or whatever. Um so not necessarily a scapegoat as such to be blamed on things. You think of the scape goat. The scapegoat gets blamed for all the failures, gets blamed for all the disharmony, gets blamed for everything that goes wrong. They're not necessarily going to be treated as a scapegoat doesn't necessarily mean they're not necessarily a target. Okay?

[00:56:10]Whether it's a target to get them what they want or a target um who's in their way. Okay. So, we're get to moth photo bomb. Yeah. Yeah, I call them pterodactyls cuz I exaggerate things that way. You see, it's not a spider.

[00:56:30]It's a big bloody arachnid, you know.

[00:56:32]It's not it's not a fly or a moth. It's a pterodactyl.

[00:56:37]That's that's just me. It's a child in me still thinking weird names for things. Um, oh, where' I get to?

[00:56:48]Uh, just every time I do the jumps.

[00:56:54]Uh, right. I Right. I've answered that one. I got that one. Uh, Max Harden, are you forever in danger if you break a psychopath's heart?

[00:57:12]No contact of gray rock saved my life. I really don't know about the situation and I really don't know about the psychopath. And you know again sometimes we fall into this habit of diagnosing people. Um I'm not saying they're not and I'm not saying they don't have traits but um I don't quite know. Um, I think some people with cluster B traits can they have a very deep memory. They have a very long memory. If someone hurts them, um, or if someone even just rejects them, you know, lets them down or or dumps them or whatever it is, they've got a very very long memory. So they might be resentful towards that person for the rest of their days. Sometimes they might do something, you know, bit of um reputation savaging, bit of a smear campaign or whatever. Um doesn't necessarily go any further than that. Um it really depends on the individual.

[00:58:26]Really depends on the individual. Um doesn't mean they can't be vindictive.

[00:58:31]Sometimes it's vindictive, but it's more like a childish kind of poorly thought out uh thing.

[00:58:38]They might even have revenge fantasies, but they don't necessarily do anything.

[00:58:43]Um, it really comes down to the individual. Uh, so it's not something I can answer specifically.

[00:58:53]Uh, where we go?

[00:59:00]This paper L thumbnail for this video should be Darren Nolan and the rest of the Nolan sisters. Yeah, I'm giving my accent giving my age away there when I said Nolan sisters. And I don't even know where that came from. Maybe there's something Freudian going on there. I don't know.

[00:59:20]Uh, where did I get to?

[00:59:25]Um, oh, just jumped again.

[00:59:42]Ever be safe for having broken the fantasy of love they build and use to keep you hostage? Can I escape? But can I ever get away again? It's it's maybe define what you mean by safe and it really depends on the individual. There are some people who are Allan Partridge level of narcissism right up to you know Hannibal actor and beyond. So it really depends what what exactly do you mean by by safe?

[01:00:13]Um, oh, just every time.

[01:00:20]Oh, Maria says, um, I missed the question. Appreciate if I could find it.

[01:00:29]Okay, Maria, let's scroll back and see if I can find Maria's question.

[01:00:36]Uh, let me see.

[01:00:40]Oh, was this the one I uh did I not answer that about the truth seer and not become a scapegoat? I did. I did answer that one, Maria. If you go back and listen to the playback of this, you'll you'll get the answer.

[01:00:55]Uh now, where did I get to?

[01:00:58]Um Oh, just jumped.

[01:01:07]Every time I think I'm getting somewhere, I jump again. Right, hold on.

[01:01:19]Love the Mickey taking on the public house. Jolly Heretic.

[01:01:24]Yeah, it's it's it's odd conversations on that channel. Really, it really is odd. and they keep laughing and joking about sticking to the topic, sticking to the subject, and they never do. It just goes off. They just go off wandering.

[01:01:40]Um, Max is, I just watched Nicole Kidman's Die for movie from the '9s. Do you think it was a pretty good depiction of this topic? Max, I haven't seen the movie.

[01:01:56]That's the first I've actually heard of the movie. I'm not sure what it's about.

[01:02:00]Um, I can't really comment on it. So, um, I'll tell you what I did see, but which I thought was interesting. I never really watched the series when it was on, but I watched the last couple of episodes of the boys about the superhero type people. And it was only um this is a friend of mine asked me just to watch the last couple of episodes just to get an idea of it to talk about the Homelander guy. And what I thought was really interesting was uh I mean the guy is all powerful. He's like Superman, you know. Um and it got to the stage where he he didn't just want people to see him as God, he wanted people to believe he was God.

[01:02:49]And I thought that was really interesting because it's something I often say that narcissistic type people, it's not just affirmation. It's not just validation thereafter. It's actually collusion.

[01:03:04]Narcissism cannot function in isolation.

[01:03:07]It needs people to support it, to encourage it, to enable it. At the bare minimum, it needs an audience. Okay. Um, what I found really interesting was how angry he was getting that people told him they believed it, but only because they were afraid of him. He actually wanted people to believe he was God.

[01:03:29]He's getting delusional. He's becoming a real cult leader type thing. And he had um telepathic people in the audience recording who actually believed that he's God and who's just going along with it out of fear or whatever. Um, I thought that was really interesting.

[01:03:46]That was really um really uh really well done. But the last scene where he's fighting the guy with the beard whose name escapes me. Um it's Carl Urban's the character. Um when he's fighting him and he loses his power, that actor handled that brilliantly. Um, if you ever see a narcissistic psychopathic person, well, more more a narcissistic person where their sense of importance, their sense of grandiosity, their sense of power is suddenly stripped from them. People see through them, the way that actor handled it, I thought was absolutely amazing. It begins with, you know, trying to be powerful but not getting anywhere. And there's the averting of the eyes, the sort of the defiant look on his face. Um, and then whenever the guy starts beating them up, the childlike behavior, which might seem a little bit exaggerated if you see the scene, but if you think of the number of people that you will see in certain videos either record themselves or they record other people, you know, they've been caught speeding by the police, you know, or or whatever it was. It doesn't even have to be anything massive, you know, but they start crawling about the floor squealing, please stop hurting me. And the person's just standing over them saying, did you eat my biscuit? You know, did you eat my chocolate bar? You know, so handled very very well, even though it seemed a little exaggerated.

[01:05:30]That childlike um behavior coming out.

[01:05:34]Then came the promises of things. I will give you things. I will give you the company. I will give you whatever it was. You know, he's promising to give him things because for narcissistic people, relationships are very transactional. There's no real depth to them. They're surface level. Um, so they tend to be transactional, which is why, you know, the apology is not just as we all would do, like maybe buy flowers, chocolates, cook a nice meal, or do something to try and make up for something we've we've done to offend or hurt. Um, with narcissistic people, they think giving you things or doing something for you that that undo every bad thing they've ever done.

[01:06:20]Okay. Um, so there's the promises of of things doing things. There's the pleading, but then that very quickly shifts because the thought that they've done something wrong is only there for a brief moment. the defense mechanism kicks in. It suddenly gets twisted around again and he's sh, you know, he's shouting, "Do you not know who I am? You know, I'm the homelander and all that sort of thing."

[01:06:46]If you're into the boys, if you haven't already seen it, watch the scene. It's It's really It's a bit graphic, you know. Don't be eating your dinner while you're watching it. It's It's a bit too violent, Mike. But, um, handled really really well. Don't even know how I got on to that. Oh, yes. So was someone had asked me about the movie. Um was something handled well. Well yeah the the the last um scenes the last couple of episodes of the Highland no Highlander Homelander um Highlander it's a movie from the 80s which is a good movie by the way. Um the the the homelander I think is handled really really well where you see narcissistic elation very quickly going into depletion going into pleading and then going into denial. Okay. So handled really well.

[01:07:41]I do waffle. Um Daz Pierce is saying how to deal with this phenomenon. What are thoughts in the long-term organization damage that these people do? Well, it's like I mentioned earlier, uh if it's if it's a workplace, you're seeing a high turnover of staff, which is not in the organization or the company's best interest because it actually costs money to recruit people.

[01:08:11]If a place does have a reputation, if they're continually advertising for the same roles, um, externally, they're not getting a good reputation. Okay? People will start to see that's probably not a good thing.

[01:08:27]Um, there's a lot of conflict. There's a lot of mistrust. So, targets aren't being met. The place isn't doing what it's meant to do. People are getting burnt out. the place is constantly having to manage complaints, sick leave and things like that. Um, ultimately it's like I say, they tend to destroy things from the inside.

[01:08:51]I think I think what happens in a lot of cases is they try to recreate things in their own image.

[01:09:00]Now, what I mean by that is perfect.

[01:09:04]They're in charge. They're superior.

[01:09:06]They are wonderful. everything is done the way they want it. Everyone is loyal and lovely and true and you know worships them and all the rest of it. So they try to create something in their own image but their image is false, their image is not real, their image is delusional. So inevitably when things don't work, when things start to fall apart, when people are not okay with being treated like crap, when people start to leave, when people will not um put up with the nonsense, when people put in complaints, when people will not work to midnight every single night, um yeah, that's when they start getting angry and so that's when things start to fall apart and that's when they start to find things and people to blame. Okay.

[01:09:56]So, in the long term, uh even after they leave, it can be very hard to undo the damage that people like this can do to an organization.

[01:10:10]Um get to get to I'm not your door man. Darren, you being an Irishman, does the F stand for Finley, Finnegan, or Flanigan?

[01:10:23]None of the above.

[01:10:27]It's not a secret, by the way. It is online. Um, where do we get to? Oh, just jumped.

[01:10:40]Are we Will you still need me? Will you still feed me when I'm 64? I have no idea.

[01:10:49]Never met you.

[01:10:51]I'll buy you a pasty supper if you want.

[01:10:52]We're going to have that together. We'll split a pasty supper some night if you want.

[01:10:59]Um Oh, damn. It's just jumped every time. I think I find a question.

[01:11:07]Um Oh, I'm not your nomad. Here we go. Have you studied and linked the toxopplasma Gondi parasite, horsehair worm, and zombie parasites control over their hosts. They're all fantastic parallels to the narcissist. I'm not your doormat.

[01:11:33]I've never heard of any of those things.

[01:11:36]I really haven't. Um I wouldn't even know where to begin. Um no, I haven't studied them at all. Um there is something um parasitic about psychopathic behavior. This belief that u not just the grandiosity that you see the belief that they're deserving of special behavior but they don't actually have to do anything to earn it. And they will feed off other people's information.

[01:12:05]They will feed off their emotions. They will feed off their energy. Um they will feed off their hard work. they will feed off their time. So yeah, there is something quite parasitic about them.

[01:12:18]Um, this paper ladder says, "The best depiction I ever saw of a narcissistic relationship was a BBC adaptation of the Bronte book, The Tenant of Wildfell Hall, which is not a story I'm familiar with."

[01:12:38]Oh, okay. I might have a look at that.

[01:12:41]I'm due to read something new. Anyway, this thing about when um I go on to Readers of the Lost Star, when I go on to my good friend Paul Taylor's channel, I usually have to read or reread something before I go on because they're the books we discuss. So, I wonder if he would be open to having a look at that. I know he wanted to What was the Bronte book he wanted to do recently or that he will be doing?

[01:13:10]Uh J&R. Yeah, it was JNR. He wanted to discuss that. I haven't read JNR since I was about 16, I think. So, I'd need to look at it again. Okay. Tenant of Wildfell Hall. That's maybe something to consider.

[01:13:26]Um, jumped Carl Urban Fled Billy Butcher. That's the guy. That's the name. I just forgot the name. Sorry. Uh, cuz I I wasn't I didn't really follow it from the beginning. I just forgot the names of the characters. So, thank you for reminding me.

[01:13:46]Um, here's a question.

[01:13:50]Used to have an MD who certainly had traits and his protege was like that obstensively, but on reflection, I sense it wasn't his nature, more a learned behavior, thoughts. There can be learned behaviors. Yeah. Um sometimes people find um if they find something in someone else that works, they start to become like that. They start to do the same. Sometimes they start to mirror certain behaviors, which we all do to some degree. um with each other.

[01:14:24]Um sometimes what you might find is um when I mentioned that person who's maybe taken over and ruined that little organization or that little group, there are people in the group start to mirror that behavior as well. I start to behave in the same way, but it's it's it's more like a hyper vigilance. It's more as I say, this person is pointing the finger.

[01:14:54]It's everybody else's fault. It's this person's fault. It's that person's fault. People start to do the same.

[01:15:00]That's maybe a blame culture starts to uh that's just as an example, just one aspect of it. A blame culture comes up.

[01:15:07]So yeah, there can be learned behavior.

[01:15:12]Uh, General Consulting says, "There's a video game with an example of an organizational psychopath. The narrator controlling his employee Stanley. Darren investigated the Stanley Parable Ultra Deluxe."

[01:15:34]Not sure what that means. Uh oh. Video game controlling his employee Stanley.

[01:15:44]Darren investigated the Stanley Parable Ultra. I'm not sure what the Stanley Parable Ultra Deluxe is, but I might have a look at it. I'm always open to new information and better ways of um understanding things.

[01:15:57]I often say I'm not the most academically gifted person you'll ever meet. When I explain things, I like to explain them in ways that I would understand them. My assumption is if I understand them, other people will.

[01:16:09]There is a downside to that. Sometimes something makes more sense in my head.

[01:16:14]It's when I say it out loud, it sounds a bit silly, but okay.

[01:16:19]Um, get to Oh, just jump jumped.

[01:16:27]Uh captain commenter, can psychopaths trick a therapist into not diagnosing diagnosing them with psychopathy?

[01:16:40]Um therapists certainly my type of therapist I am. We don't diagnose.

[01:16:48]Um there the it's like anybody would have to be seeing someone psychiatrist or somebody who does diagnose um uh personality disorders and so on. I would imagine how they go about this. Um there's specific questions and tests and so on.

[01:17:12]I'm not so I can't really answer your question. I'm not sure if they can trick a mental health professional who does diagnose people if they could trick them into diagnosing them or or not diagnosing them as the question was not diagnosing them. I couldn't really answer that. I'm sorry. Not diagnosing people myself. I'm not sure what that actual process is.

[01:17:38]Let me get to love Jire. Yeah, I like Jire as well.

[01:17:45]This is quite a good story. Very sad story, but it's a good story.

[01:17:53]Is there any quick way to distinguish an organizational psychopath from any version of narcissist? What first of all, what you might find is there's an awful lot of crossover in a lot of the behaviors.

[01:18:06]Not all narcissists are psychopathic, but to the best of my knowledge, psychopaths are narcissistic. Okay? So, there can be a crossover.

[01:18:20]Also, when it comes to uh distinguishing, I wouldn't say there's a quick way. You could meet someone and they are very mean to you and you think, well, that's a bit mean. That's a bit narcissistic.

[01:18:34]That's a bit psychopathic. They didn't care about my feelings. They didn't care about what that um the impact that had on me. They didn't care. That might have been a one-off event. We don't know what happened just before. Um you know, they could have had terrible news or something. They could just be having a really bad day. So that they could be up to here with stress. So they could be very frustrated. They haven't got the energy.

[01:19:02]with a one-off thing, it's very difficult to spot. Also, when you talk about the charm, the charm offensive, you might people might meet people who are just genuinely nice. They're very well-mannered and it's just their nature. So, they're not trying to manipulate you. It's just who they are.

[01:19:23]So, I don't necessarily think there's a quick way. Others might disagree. other people, you know, sharper than I am, might be able to pick up on things better than I could. But I think you're looking for, first of all, a repeated pattern of behavior.

[01:19:39]If something happens over and over again, it's not that this person is mean to you. They might be mean to you when there's no one else around, when there's no witnesses. Okay, so that would be one thing. They might be continually what they would just call banter or teasing.

[01:19:55]They're just jokes with Jags and they are aimed at humiliating you. Okay? And they do it all the time. And I think a good sign that it's not banter is if you were to make a joke back, if you were to answer them back, they do not take it well. Okay, so that could be a sign.

[01:20:13]Another sign could be their words do not meet their actions.

[01:20:19]You know, they might be talking about how professional they are and how, you know, they're they're very strict on time. They're a good timekeeper. They don't like people being late. They're never on time. They never turn up.

[01:20:32]They're just saying things to make themselves look good or feel good or whatever. So, I don't think there's a quick way, but it is about um it is about recognizing long-term patterns.

[01:20:43]Um, I'm not saying this is a sign.

[01:20:48]It's maybe an indicator.

[01:20:51]How does someone react to your no? Now, they don't have to like it, but do they respect it?

[01:20:59]Um, it's not that they can't be persuasive.

[01:21:03]They can't try to talk you around.

[01:21:05]Again, that's just negotiation. That's give and take. That's what human beings do. Are they being persuasive or are they trying or do they come across as being coercive? Okay. Um are they emotive arguments that they keep bringing up? You know, it's not to say that emotion isn't involved, but that's the only uh thing that they bring up.

[01:21:27]Emotive things like guilt tripping, shaming, you know, whatever.

[01:21:33]Not quick and not a definite answer about anything, but they would be indicators. I believe.

[01:21:41]Uh, so where did I get to songwriting for songwriters? Have you seen the new Vicente film on narcissism? And if so, what are your thoughts? Elijah. Elijah, I have not seen it yet, but I will be watching it. Um, I uh I think it's over the weekend, 24th, 25th or whatever. There's an early screening. So, I will be watching it over the weekend. I am going to talk about it. I am hoping to talk to Mark Vicente about it. I interviewed him a couple of I met him a couple of years ago. We talked at the same event. Um, he's been on my channel. Uh, I've interviewed him then and back then when he was talking to you, he was making the movie at the time. I did say about coming back whenever the movie's ready.

[01:22:30]I would like to talk to him about it.

[01:22:32]So, it's now finished. I know he's going to be very busy with a lot of promotion.

[01:22:36]I know there's a lot of different stuff going on. Um, so I would hopefully like to be able to talk to him about it. If not, I know two of the people who appear in it. Uh, Richard Granon and Sarah Kryson from uh, Cluster B Milkshake. Um, these two people appear in it. So, um, hopefully I'll get to talk to Mark, but I'll maybe talk to one or both of them about their participation in the movie as well. And I I will one way or another I'll be giving my thoughts on it. Um, so I will be sharing them. Uh, I don't know, maybe over a live stream or something I will talk about what I think of the movie. But that's a good question. Thank you for that.

[01:23:22]Um, and I've just captain commenter. Are all psychopaths machavelians?

[01:23:29]Interesting question. Um, I think there's a level of manipulation um to some degree. Sometimes it's poorly thought out, could be childlike. Other times, again, they're thinking of the long term. Um, other times it's just maybe per impulse control. they just do what they want.

[01:23:51]It's not necessarily about manipulation.

[01:23:54]They'll just do what they want. They might neither can be manipulative on how they try to get out of it, you know, how they lie about it and so on. Um, but I think where you see the the in the dark tetrad where you see four things co-occurring at the same time. So there's psychopathy which is being callous, being cold, remorseless.

[01:24:18]um you don't necessarily see they don't fear consequences as such. Um they have a disregard for the well-being of other people, for other people's rights, for their safety. Even there's narcissism, which is being highly disagreeable. Um believing they're special, deserving of special treatment and attention and so on. They are superior. They are wonderful.

[01:24:44]There's Machavelianism which is being manipulative. It's being highly duplicitous. I think an aspect of that is believing the ends justify the means.

[01:24:53]So they they it doesn't matter what how how low they might stoop. They believe they're entitled to they believe it's for them it's their best course of action.

[01:25:02]And then lastly there's sadism.

[01:25:05]And that's where you that's where someone gets pleasure from the pain and misery of other people. They enjoy seeing people struggle. They enjoy seeing people under pressure. They enjoy seeing them frightened, seeing them in pain, seeing them humiliated. Okay. Um when those four things are co-occurring together, um that's not a pleasant dynamic. That's person you maybe avoid eye contact with and move away very slowly.

[01:25:35]Um, there's the harmless inler and the way with the fairies type. Any others?

[01:25:46]Um, I'm sure there are nothing none come to mind. It's the harm harmless narc subsets.

[01:25:57]Sometimes you meet people and they are they might be delusional, but there's no real harm in them. Um, what comes to mind would be David Brent from The Office, the Ricky Javas character. Now, yes, he could be vindictive and petty when he didn't get his own way.

[01:26:13]Whenever, you know, people didn't see him as amazing, uh, whenever his boss, you know, was telling to just do his job. Um, he would gossip about the boss and so on.

[01:26:27]But really, there was no real malice in him, if you know what I He just he just had this delusional sense that he thinks he's talented. He he's basically a chilled out entertainer. I think he describes himself as. Um so that would maybe be a type, if you will.

[01:26:46]Um this paper narcissist playbook is fantastic. I have even more respect for Richard Gran than I had before. Uh, thank you for sharing that paper ladder. Um, you're recommending it's it's fantastic. It's good. Um, guys, so I look forward to seeing it at the weekend.

[01:27:10]Get to I've just jumped again.

[01:27:16]H.

[01:27:23]All right. Where did I get to? Okay. I think of I'm not sure where this is on the list. Um uh okay, I think I have gotten to the end because every time I scroll something jumps. But anyway, I am looking at the time and it's probably time. I let my little four-legged friend out um because he's been downstairs um all evening.

[01:27:56]Last night I did uh something and it was for members. I was looking at this concept of awakening.

[01:28:06]It's something that happens to all of us to some degree and it happens in different ways. Sometimes we might see a movie, have a conversation, see a YouTube video, whatever it is, we start to awaken that uh we start to realize that where we are um what we've been doing, what we've been going through, this person, this group of people that we're involved with are not good for us. Um, and I was looking at that process of the awakening and how someone, it's the sort of person who they don't leave it.

[01:28:40]Again, imagine somebody in that workplace with a psychopathic person.

[01:28:43]They're in that workplace. It's just that one day um they just don't come in.

[01:28:48]No one even knows that they've handed in their notice. They just go quietly.

[01:28:53]There is there's no arguments. there's no um you know there's no drama. It's just one day they just don't come in. They just like quietly disappear.

[01:29:06]And I've been looking at the the concept of that whenever people do start to maybe just quietly disappear. They start to withdraw that little piece at a time without the drama, without the hassle.

[01:29:17]They're not explaining themselves.

[01:29:19]They're not um they're not arguing.

[01:29:21]They're not demanding anything. They just go. They just go. So, I've been looking at that that that concept of awakening and I outlined it last night in a a stream I did for members. Um, but that's something I'm going to look a bit more closely at because there's a lot going on with that. There's there's looking at you could look at that through uh maybe the young lens of um individuation. Okay. My sense of worth is not dependent on this person or these people. Um my value is not dependent on what these particular people say or think about me. Um you could look at it through integrating the parts of us that you know the shadow self, the parts of us that are unacceptable. I often believe a lot of those things are things we are led to believe are unacceptable. They're not bad. They're not bad at all. They never were. It's just that we've been led to believe that these aspects of us were bad. You know, things like self-interest for instance, things like having boundaries, having ambition. Um, we start to integrate those things. Um, so I thought I really really interested in that that that idea of awakening and how it's not always something that happens overnight. It's not always something that happens um over one argument or one incident.

[01:30:50]Every single time someone is rejected, they are criticized. They do something with good intentions and they are, you know, savaged for it.

[01:31:03]They're laughed at for it. They're they're humiliated. They're criticized.

[01:31:06]Whatever. Each and every time that happens, it's like they're remembering it now.

[01:31:11]They're remembering every single time they try to do something to please. say they go above and beyond and they sacrifice only to get nowhere, only to be taken for granted and so on. But they remember every insult, everything that's thrown back in their face, everything that's taken for granted. And over that period of time, what happens is it's a bit like the Shaw Shank redemption, if you know what I mean.

[01:31:36]They slowly start to plan their exit.

[01:31:40]They slowly start to realize this is not okay. this is not fine. I don't even see any point in talking to these people about this or this person about this or or whatever. Um, no, I'm just going to go do my own thing. Um, so that's as say I mentioned outlined it briefly. I've outlined it last night for members. If there's any members watching, have a look, see what you think. Um, but I think that's something that would be really interesting. If people would like me to go more in depth to talk about that process, to talk about that journey, that that awakening, um, leave it in the comments of of this live stream or put it out on other videos that I put out. Um, let me know if that's something you'd like me to cover in more depth. I think it's absolutely fascinating. Um, I think it's really interesting. Um, and it's something that I would like to talk about. But as always, I will cover the topics that people want me to topic uh want me to talk about. Unless like this evening, I thought this was interesting and I covered it. Um so anyway, in the meantime, I'm off and uh I will see you all again during the week, have videos out, and I will see you all again next Sunday again. Okay, take care everyone.