1461 Podcast Episode 6 Hosted by Stephen Fevrier Featuring The Honourable Dr. Claudius Francis

Añadido: 2026-05-22

[00:00:00]Would you acknowledge error?

[00:00:01]>> Of course. Of course I have acknowledged error openly in the house. I recall the member of a castry southeast was speaking and his time had run out and I told him so and he continued for another 10 minutes and I discontinued his presentation. I could have done it differently and I said so in the house and I apologized to him.

[00:00:27]American social scientist. is Harold Lasswell's 1936 book titled politics who gets what when and how provided clarity on what politics is really about. The distribution of values and resources in a society who benefits under what conditions and through what processes.

[00:01:12]But politics is more than just that. It is how those placed in a position to govern can bring people together, create common cause, and collectively work towards building a better society. But all too often, those who aim to build that better, more perfect society approach the challenge from different directions, different points of view, and different expectations. Yet rather than being in perpetual conflict, we should be united in a common purpose to build, to bridge, to do better. My next guest put it well. Leadership welcomes the friction between different points of view, understanding that progress is forged in the heat of honest debate. To shut down a critic is to seal oneself in an equa chamber where growth is impossible and mistakes inevitable. For us to grow as a nation, we must summon the courage to speak to each other, to listen to each other, even while we behold different points of view. Ours must be a desire to hold hands even while differences exist.

[00:02:25]Welcome to the 1461 podcast.

[00:02:28]>> This podcast is brought to you by IBS, Harbor Club, Tropical Solar, and 1461 Enterprise, distributors of the world's best coffees.

[00:02:41]>> Thank you for joining us for yet another episode of the 1461 podcast. Today we have a very special guest, the Speaker of the House of Assembly, Dr. the Honorable Claudius Francis. Thank you for joining us, Honorable Claudius Francis.

[00:02:56]>> Thank you for having me here, Stephen.

[00:02:58]>> So, I know you are very uh very involved in many different parliamentary procedures. You're a very busy man. So, the fact that you've taken time out of your schedule u to be here with us uh is truly appreciated. But we want to go on a journey from the beginning. So, let's start from the beginning. Uh take us back to your younger days. Um tell us about your upbringing. Uh your parents, your siblings. Tell us what life was truly like during your formative years.

[00:03:27]>> Well, Stephen and I was born in George Charles Boulevard, Marsha.

[00:03:34]The fourth child, fourth boy of a family of eight.

[00:03:40]My father was a police officer. my mom, seamstress and homemaker from Marsha. We moved to Conway when I was about maybe four or five. Spent about a year and a half in Conway and we moved to the CDC where we the family still maintains a residence. My the brother immediately preceded me resides there and we go there every day.

[00:04:10]So, >> so your cast is the boy.

[00:04:12]>> Absolutely. But it is the CDC which really formed me. Both my parents are from Labry. We are first generation Castries and daddy came to Castre's when he was transferred as a police officer to cast.

[00:04:29]So that is where our cast upbringing began.

[00:04:32]>> So the discipline that you have comes from the disciplinarian in your family who I assume to be your father the policeman. They were both disciplinarians. But my mother was a little more accommodating. Yes. Cuz she was the one mostly at home because unlike the police officers of today >> who were no matter where they are stationed in the island, they can come home every night. In those days, transportation was not what it is today. So if daddy was transferred to, let's say, Denry, as close as Denry, sometimes we wouldn't see him for three, four weeks. That was usually the case before the redevelopment of the uh the east coast road. Uh commuting between the south and the north uh proved very challenging. But you indicated that you have four brothers.

[00:05:22]Was there sibling rivalry? Uh were you uh let's say did you have to fight to keep your own turf or was there harmony in the Franc's household?

[00:05:30]>> Never. There there was always a togetherness. If anything, all of the brothers, Herman Gill is the is the eldest one.

[00:05:40]>> Yes.

[00:05:40]>> So if anything, he was so talented sports-wise.

[00:05:44]>> He represented St. Lucian in at least six disciplines, captained in about three. So if anything, we all tried to emulate him. In fact, every one of us was called Toman.

[00:05:56]>> That's how effective he was as an elder brother.

[00:05:59]>> Somehow I don't think you emulated him in all regards.

[00:06:02]>> Yeah, man. sports wise, everything. We both entered politics. I didn't compete in as many sports as he did. I played all, but I wasn't as prolific as he was in them.

[00:06:14]>> So, were you good at sports or did you just think that you were good at sports?

[00:06:18]>> No, I actually represented St. Lucia in three sports.

[00:06:20]>> What sports were they?

[00:06:21]>> Uh, table tennis, martial arts, and volleyball.

[00:06:24]>> Oh, you're a martial artist.

[00:06:25]>> Something like that.

[00:06:26]>> Very good. Very good. Very good. Now, at that time in Castries, what was the general feeling? You know, St. Lucia has changed over time as with most societies. Was was there general harmony? Was there a sense or particular in the CDC a sense of togetherness, a sense of community, a sense of common purpose? or was cast fractured um and perhaps not as united as maybe most developing countries, most urban cities in developing countries, you would find that >> in all of the three places I grew up as a young man, there was always harmony, but more so in the CDC. And of course, that's because it was one common area.

[00:07:13]Everybody knew each other.

[00:07:15]In fact, it was not uncommon for when my mom missed me for her to go look by somebody else's home where I was having either breakfast or dinner. I mean, in fact, just last week, we buried one of the final matriarchs of the CDC, Mrs. Bledman. So, all mothers in the CDC were our mothers.

[00:07:37]Everybody was just moving from one. We even slept at each other's homes, not just go there to eat. So if of course we didn't have mobiles in those days. So if you're going to sleep somewhere, you you just send a message that that's where you were and your mother and father weren't worried. You you speak with such fondness about your upbringing and particular time at the CDC. Has that changed in today's context? Or you think that that sense of camaraderie, that sense of community, that sense of common purpose that you can run from your mother, but you can't hide, that no longer exists in the >> not as much as when I was growing up.

[00:08:15]And that's because the CDC no longer involves just people who reside there, >> but a lot of people from neighboring communities who come and spend the day there, lying. So it's not the same level of community because the people in fact more of the people are from outside than they are from within. So the community of purpose we had before is not as prevalent.

[00:08:41]>> Now looking forward I know there have been some talk about HUDC and uh let's say transforming that area because your I guess your naval string in a way was buried in Castries and you lived and grew up in the CDC. What's your reaction to those ideas about maybe uh changing the use purpose of that area? Um are you sentimentally attached to it or do you think it's time now to perhaps redesate that area for commercial use? I'm absolutely sentimentally attached and I understand the need for progress and I will not stand in the way of progress but I will do nothing to assist the their breaking down of the CDC's. I will not stand or hinder its progress and stand in the way but I will not assist.

[00:09:34]>> Very good. Well, we've had a really good introduction to the life early life formative years of Claudius Francis.

[00:09:41]After the break, you'll hear a little bit more about his, let's say, middle years and the politics. See you after the break.

[00:09:48]>> Coming up after the break, more with our guest.

[00:10:19]So good.

[00:10:21]So good.

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[00:10:39]>> Welcome back. So, of course, any discussion with you has to in somehow um involve politics.

[00:10:47]>> So, tell us a little bit more about how you got involved. Were you pulled in?

[00:10:52]Were you uh from a young age interested in the politics of St. Lucia? Uh tell us a little bit more about how you got involved in politics in St. Lucia.

[00:11:01]>> Stephen, I have always lived by the mortal that no one can lead me into temptation. I can I can find it myself.

[00:11:08]>> Yes. But in all honesty, in my very early teens, um, I went around, if you can call it that, with the daughter of a politician.

[00:11:23]>> You mind say no?

[00:11:25]>> I don't need to say, but even um, at that early age, because the market steps >> was the home of the Labor Party, >> we lived directly opposite the market.

[00:11:39]the CDC that is directly opposite the market is where we live. So I was always inundated with political speeches.

[00:11:47]>> Inundated or indoctrinated?

[00:11:49]>> Inundated. And also the parliament of St. Lucia was right next door. I used to come from school at St. Mary's College, put my books at home and walk across to the parliament whenever a meeting took place. And I listened. In fact, I was very present for the Hess debate >> um where the dramatic scene of Peter Josie tearing up his bill >> in protest at Hess.

[00:12:21]>> What year was that? That would have been mid70s >> in protest at Hess but still having to vote for the bill because Hess had had said to John Compton as he then was it's either 170 or there is no um there's no no >> investment >> investment.

[00:12:43]>> So Peter Josie spoke against the bill and eventually voted for it because we were going to lose millions. And I was sitting there and Sinclair Daniel who was the speaker noticed the soul little boy always sitting there. And one day he sent a sergeant at arms to say to me he would like to see me after the sitting ended.

[00:13:08]So I went to his office and I told him about my fascination about what takes place in the house. How people these 17 people actually determined what my future was going to be like. They passed taxes. They even wrote things like the education bill which defined what I did and didn't do.

[00:13:27]So I was always interested and that is where the love for it started.

[00:13:31]>> That meeting with St. Craig Daniel uh I think is one of the most um illust illustrious speakers or uh presiding officers.

[00:13:40]How let's say impactful was that experience for you and did it shape in a sense your destiny and where you are today?

[00:13:50]>> Well, the man was one of the better speakers or just sitting in his office and listening to him gave you a sense of importance and I felt well maybe I can grow up to be like that too. dictating people get elected, but he was the one telling them when they could speak, how long they could speak for, etc. So, I said, you know, that's something to aim for. Cuz I never saw myself being an elected member. I don't think I have the temperament >> to go around asking people for their votes and then they cussing me. I won't c them back.

[00:14:31]>> So, I thought maybe presiding would have been an easier thing. And so, that that's where Your journey started in that office.

[00:14:39]>> That office uh when I was mid70s >> mid- teens. Yes.

[00:14:43]>> Wow. Wow.

[00:14:45]>> And in terms of the general politics beyond being a presiding officer um you also became politically involved with the party that you you support. How did you become let's say uh involved in uh elective politics? Perhaps not at the front end, perhaps not at leading edge, but certainly involved. And did you have any core beliefs in that at that time when you became involved?

[00:15:13]>> Okay. As I told you, I was at the time, >> whatever word you want to use, going around with >> the politician's daughter.

[00:15:22]>> So the next step was to join the Labor Party.

[00:15:25]>> Mhm.

[00:15:26]>> In those days there was no youth arm of any party.

[00:15:30]>> You just join the party. So when I joined even at that tender age I was involved in mainstream politics because I was part of the party >> and that one thing just led to the other. Um I actually was involved in the campaign of 1974 as a 14year-old.

[00:15:48]>> Wow.

[00:15:49]>> Um Hunter Francois had just fallen out with John Compton. Hunter Francois of course having been the education minister and Hunter decided to move from his previous seat and run as an independent in Castry central.

[00:16:06]Julian Hunt as well >> who had also fallen out if John Compton Julian had been mayor of Castre. So those two then very illustrious people were running in the constituency I resided in against George Mlet.

[00:16:23]So I joined um the campaign of Julian Hunt and I have been involved in every campaign ever since.

[00:16:35]>> If memory serves me correctly, I think you at one point either the general secretary or the chairman of the party >> which I gave up voluntarily in 2017.

[00:16:49]>> Professionally, I'm an insurance loss adjuster and consultant. Mhm.

[00:16:53]>> Dominica had just been badly hit in September of 2017 by Hurricane Maria, a category 5 hurricane. I was then contracted by an insurance company, a regional insurance company to go to Dominica and be embedded in Domnica until, as they put it, all of their clients were satisfied, >> which meant I remained in Dominica for the next 8 months. Were all the clients satisfied?

[00:17:23]>> Yeah. I didn't think it was proper for a party seeking to regain governance because we had lost in 2016 >> to have its chairman >> outside of the country.

[00:17:37]So in the convention of 2017, I gave a speech giving the reasons why I wish to demit office and I threw my support behind Moses Jabatis >> who remains the chairman to this day.

[00:17:54]>> Beyond politics, um I get the sense that you were also and remain involved in other cultural and sports pursuits. Tell us about your involvement in culture, carnival and sports. That's of course after your formative year. Do you remain involved?

[00:18:12]>> Absolutely. I I became president of the cast race football council, >> president of the St. Lucia softball cricket association, president of the table tennis association, St. Lucia, um, Ward Islands and OECS and French West Indies, president of all four of those associations.

[00:18:39]I was the general secretary of the St. Lucia Martial Arts Association.

[00:18:45]Then all of the associations in St. Lucia came together and formed a national sports council and I became the first president of the National Sports Council. I was chairman of Sports St. Lucia. M >> which incorporated Darren Sammy cricket ground, the Mind Phillip and Victoria Park cricket grounds and the now George Ordam stadium that was chairman for eight years of that. Um any other sporting activities I can remember. I think that's it for the sports. Socially I became chairman of the Calypso Association's disciplinary committee.

[00:19:24]>> Mhm. I remain a member chairman of the St. Lucia football association disciplinary committee.

[00:19:33]Professionally I became the president of the the founding president of the insurance institute of St. Lucia.

[00:19:43]I am now the 25time president of the insurance council of St. Lucia.

[00:19:50]I was the first general secretary of the insurance association of the Caribbean.

[00:19:58]So >> you made your contribution.

[00:20:00]>> I think so.

[00:20:01]>> And in sports in particular, I I think it would be fair to say that over the last 20 years or 15, we've seen uh the emergence of some prodigious talent in St. Lucia. Of course they speak of Darren um Sammy Levin Spencer and of course Julian Alfred most recently and of course we have a few others making their way up the London London the young Emmanuel lady. What do you think is has been the catalyst for that change?

[00:20:31]Because growing up, the only athlete that I recall being celebrated was probably Mindu Phillip and a few others who did not find regional or international acclaim. What do you think is the trigger or the catalyst for that change and the elevation of our talent to the global stage?

[00:20:49]>> I'll tell you something. In 1997 when the Labor Party won the election, I became the press secretary to the prime minister.

[00:20:59]Ernest became prime minister's attach and we we were in the same prime minister's office. And one lunchtime winner said to me, "Claudius, do you realize there are only two areas small islands like us can compete internationally?"

[00:21:19]I say two. Which two?

[00:21:21]>> Sports.

[00:21:21]>> He said education and sports.

[00:21:24]>> And that has stuck with me ever since from 1998.

[00:21:29]And that is why I believe I've given so much of my time to sporting endeavors because he's right. Our raw talent is equal to anybody else's. Our educational talent given the right opportunity. Die Wal Arthur Lewis Winston Paris Dr. Lorenson and I believe Dr. Lorenson is close to being the next Nobel laureate.

[00:21:57]>> Very close. So that has stuck with me ever since, Stephen. And I've tried to give back to both education and sports.

[00:22:08]I do it privately and I'll just say it here. I won't tell you what school or anything. I still give a scholarship every year.

[00:22:14]>> Very good.

[00:22:15]>> Yeah.

[00:22:15]>> Very good.

[00:22:16]>> And in 2012, Jimmy Fletcher and I who were both in the Senate at the time, got together with Mr. Monroe was then the principal of the RSC boys primary school. Both Jimmy and I went to the RC Boys Primary School and we have given prizes every year.

[00:22:36]>> Wow.

[00:22:36]>> To the top two common entrance students from the RC boy school.

[00:22:40]>> That was your alma mater.

[00:22:41]>> Very good.

[00:22:42]>> Jimmy gives a tablet.

[00:22:44]>> Mhm.

[00:22:45]>> And I give a cell phone. And on some occasions we go further based on who gets those two things because there are some people the area they live in there's no Wi-Fi. Okay. We pay for the Wi-Fi as well.

[00:22:57]>> Oh very good. Well this is a really intriguing journey into the contribution of the speaker of the house in sports and in education. And after the break we're going to double click a little more on the politics. And coming up after the break, more with our guest.

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[00:24:02]So I don't think it's a secret that you are a Roman Catholic and of course growing up in the CDC right in the middle of Castries I'm sure you spent uh many days or many afternoons in the what is now the minor basil basilica what was then the what was it called before before >> the cathedral >> the cathedral >> um to walk us through your faith and what role it played in your life today, particularly as a public figure.

[00:24:34]>> Yes, you're right. Growing up, both my parents were Catholic and they ensured that we went to church every Sunday. And at the time, I don't know if it's still the case, but at the time, the Catholic church accommodated an a Sunday mass for children.

[00:24:50]>> I think it was a 10. So, we went to that as we grew up. Um, the church stayed with me. I continued going to church.

[00:25:00]Even when I moved to Trinidad, I went to church every Saturday night in Trinidad in Port Spain. So yes, my faith has always been a guiding light for me.

[00:25:11]I don't wear religion on my sleeve.

[00:25:14]>> You're not going to get me in a discussion with somebody arguing about religion.

[00:25:20]>> Each person's belief is their business.

[00:25:22]So, but I know my Bible and we can have a discussion on the Bible. There was a time pa and I was would sit down on any given day and just talk about the Bible.

[00:25:32]So I'm pretty well versed in the Bible, but I don't try to indoctrinate any other person. But you see that religion particularly the Catholic Church the role it once played in the society in shaping the values and the morals of the society perhaps is not as let's say well as well seen today as it was in the past.

[00:25:59]>> Well yes and no. There was a time it lessened in its influence. That is because the priests who were there were not connecting with the congregation >> and the evangelical churches took over because they were more involved. People participated to a greater extent in the churches. So for example, when you went to the seventh day Adventist or the Baptist church, you were part >> of the community. The Catholic Church still held you at arms length. Imagine the first time musical instruments were introduced in the Catholic Church.

[00:26:37]>> It took a disaster for it to happen. Um Andre Williams was the organist for the band True Tones. He lived at um and he became the first victim of the newly constructed Castri Grizzly Highway. you know, huge motor vehicle accident and the True Tones were so popular and Boo so wanted to play pay homage to Andre he asked the Catholic Church >> to allow him >> to allow True Tones to play.

[00:27:14]>> Oh wow. What year was it?

[00:27:16]>> That was that was very very long ago.

[00:27:19]And they eventually allowed him and that memory is so vivid in my mind. The song that was played was the first time ever I saw your face.

[00:27:31]That was Andrea's favorite.

[00:27:32]>> Okay.

[00:27:32]>> And believe it or not, when the final note was strong, boo collapsed.

[00:27:37]>> Oh wow.

[00:27:37]>> That's how emotional it was. But by that time, it was common place for the Baptist >> evangelical >> evangelical churches to have that.

[00:27:47]But now that's common in the Catholic church now. That's the first time it happened. So with people like Paba and Michelle Anthony and whatever else you want to say about him, Father Albert, >> those people now connect again >> with the people >> with the people and you find more and more people are connecting again to the Catholic Church.

[00:28:05]>> Well, you know, I think it may be and I could be wrong a consequence of what is taking place in Rome. I think Pope Francis uh >> my my grand uncle >> I think he really really uh opened the doors of the church uh the Catholic church uh to a new society became more welcoming I think that has also fed >> yeah because when you went and you listened they read the gospel then they gave a sermon >> you couldn't connect with a sermon >> people like Paba and Francis Michelle or Michelle Francis, Albert bring it to you. You don't have have to agree with them, >> but they bring it to to everyday life.

[00:28:47]>> But there's a downside to the church as well. And when I speak about the church, speak more broadly.

[00:28:53]>> Would you not say that the church also promoted class stratification in St. Lucia?

[00:28:59]>> Well, that's it. Because even when I was going to the Catholic church, the first set of pews had the names of prominent individuals embedded in them and only they could sit there.

[00:29:12]>> Whilst that may have changed, is that mentality still prevalent in the church?

[00:29:20]>> I cannot speak for the hierarchy of the church, >> but certainly the priests and them are more down to earth and more connected.

[00:29:27]>> Mhm. And of course um Bishop Mal is among the more downto- earthth um pre bishops that we have had.

[00:29:39]>> I don't always agree with him but >> you can't say not he's not connected. I mean the man gave a whole sermon one time singing a calypso.

[00:29:47]>> Oh wow.

[00:29:47]>> Yeah.

[00:29:48]>> So we're going to switch gears again.

[00:29:50]We're going to go back uh to politics now. I don't really uh we're not really interested or I am not really interested. And I don't think my our listeners are interested in sort of party line politics or let's say the manifesto. I want to hear from you. What are your core convictions politically?

[00:30:10]What are your core beliefs? And what for you are the non-negotiables politically?

[00:30:17]>> Taking care of the dispossessed.

[00:30:20]That's non-negotiable.

[00:30:22]And of course that's a good approach philosophically but how in how does politics work to ensure that that outcome is realized?

[00:30:34]>> People and a lot of politicians themselves >> have given politics a bad name.

[00:30:40]>> People just say loosely politicians are crooks.

[00:30:44]I don't believe politics makes people bad. I believe there are some bad people who get into politics and the nature of politics affords them a greater opportunity than most other professions to thrive.

[00:30:59]>> Mhm.

[00:31:00]>> But I don't think a good pe good people come into politics and say today but I'm coming to politics just to do bad things. I think there is a genuine desire to do good but sometimes the opportunity overtakes people and they do some wrong things. What conditions exist in politics which would have people who are well-intentioned, who get in for the right reason, decide to pursue their own self-interest.

[00:31:26]>> Weakness.

[00:31:29]That's basically weakness. So, you fall prey to quick money, >> doing things you don't think will be found out. So, for example, you have a road contract and one person bids 2 million, the other bids 3 million. You're not bound by either bid. You give what you consider to be the person best suited to do the job. That's your view.

[00:31:57]>> And you give a contract. Somebody gives you $100,000 as thanks. Not even necessarily as a bribe. He appreciated the fact that they got it. you shouldn't accept it, >> but human nature sometimes allows for that failure.

[00:32:12]So what I've been reflecting on um particularly in the sanian context where you speak about the dispossessed many people who don't have access or the facility to not only enjoy life but to have the bare necessities and as a consequence politicians bear a certain amount of responsibility for taking care of the dispossessed and of course that puts tremendous personal financial strain on politicians which could create an environment for what you've just described to happen.

[00:32:45]>> We look at Singapore and I don't like to use Singapore as an example where the salaries of politicians are sufficient enough that there's no need or the need to engage in that type of bad behavior is not as prominent or as there. Do you think considering the needs and expectations of the society, the number of dispossessed and the expectation that the politician will help the disposess that salaries in the public service at the political level should reflect that responsibility?

[00:33:24]>> Well, absolutely and Jamaica just accepted that. But the reality is to do that you need an electorate, a population that is prepared to accept it. And they're not going to accept it if the first and most lasting impression of a politician is one of a crook. They're not going to accept that. He brought Singapore.

[00:33:50]>> Not only the salary is good, the penalties are extreme.

[00:33:53]>> That's true. So people tend to have a double dose of why they ought not to get engaged which is not to say they don't because up to 3 weeks ago >> there's one >> there was one so but it's minimized as you see >> so for example we what we think of politicians you have during the recent debate on the estimates three ministers didn't speak on the debate and that was a big deal in St. Lucia.

[00:34:26]>> As we speak, I have a delegation of five members of the House of Commons in the Parliament right now who are going to who are here to do a post-election seminar. Do you know it's against the rules in the UK Parliament for a minister to debate? H well that's another question I wanted to ask which is we have this constitutional tradition where you have a fusion of executive and legislative responsibility >> but it's the same in the commons in England but it so a minister comes from a constituency and he's not allowed under the rules of the commons to to speak at all >> but are you suggesting that a minister who has a sub significant or substantial portfolio which will touch and concern the lives of every St. Lucian should not give account for >> they they present bills >> as ministers >> but that's the legislative function >> they're not allowed to debate >> but that's what I'm speaking about that's a legislative >> but I'm saying you have in St. a situation where if a minister >> does not speak >> it's hell and damnation >> but you would agree that it is right and proper for ministers to account >> but I don't know if it's right or proper if it's wrong for the house I know ministers ought to stick in touch with the constituency which is what they do in England the guys go to the constituency and account there I don't know in England the accounting is not in the house of assembly. It's in the constituency.

[00:36:01]>> But that >> constituency rep I'm talking about not a minister.

[00:36:04]>> Yes, that would be respect in respect to the legislative function.

[00:36:08]>> But as an member of the executive, I think it may would be right and proper for a minister within his executive responsibility to account for his >> and that's where the committees of the house come in.

[00:36:22]>> But what about the people? Would they be having an opportunity? Committees committee hearings are >> public.

[00:36:27]>> are public.

[00:36:28]>> Very good.

[00:36:28]>> In those in those Yeah, those hearings are public.

[00:36:31]>> After the break, we will continue our discussion about politics in St. Lucia as well as the House of Parliament. See you after the break.

[00:36:39]>> Stay tuned. We'll be right back.

[00:36:45]>> Oh yes.

[00:36:55]Yes.

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[00:37:17]>> Welcome back. So you started your journey as you said many years ago. Do you think that since you have been on that journey that St. Lucia has made meaningful progress towards becoming that better version of itself?

[00:37:35]>> Yes, we move forward and far too often we take a step back but we have moved forward. Yes.

[00:37:43]>> What areas do you think there is still unfulfilled work? Okay. In terms of debate in the parliament, too many members and you speak, you spoke about accountant to the people, but the reality is when you debate in the parliament, you are speaking to the presiding officer.

[00:38:04]Yes, you make points to your constituency, but too many of our politicians in recent years have become fixated with playing to the gallery as opposed to debating what is before them and making contributions on what is before them.

[00:38:19]>> But surely that happens in all Westminster style democracies. The House of Commons is no different. And you would agree that it happens on both sides of the House in St. Lucia.

[00:38:28]>> That's why I said politicians. I didn't limit it to any individual one, but it's how you do it.

[00:38:34]>> But as a more general proposition, do you think that St. Lucia is evolving in a way which gives you the confidence that your commitment and contribution uh not only is being realized but uh we tracking towards the outcome which you would want to see um as a country?

[00:38:55]>> Yes. And I gauge that by the way the St. Lucia Parliament is perceived by international parliaments.

[00:39:03]>> Talk talk us talk us through this.

[00:39:05]>> So St. Lucia is on the executive of nearly every international parliamentary organization and when so for example if we are invited somewhere and we say well look you know we are small legislature we don't have the funds to send our presiding officers or other members to these meetings to pay for us they want us there because of our contributions our deputy president of the senate just came from either Fiji or the Malaysian Islands last week because they wanted us there to contribute.

[00:39:45]Our Senate President Alvina Reynolds just concluded uh a segment in Trinidad and Tobago >> where she was one of the resource people excellent >> for the Commonwealth. She is the vice president of the parlame's association which is the parliamentary arm of the oes.

[00:40:08]>> I am a member.

[00:40:09]>> I'm also a member of the commonwealth parliamentary association executive. I am a me on the executive of the commonwealth presiding officers association. I was elected in India in January. So we are on every executive you can think of. Nothing happens if St. Lucia doesn't give a seat.

[00:40:30]>> So I am an armchair observer of uh parliamentary procedure. I'm observer of different uh processes.

[00:40:41]One of the things which I really believe can be significant and contribute to public dialogue and discussion between uh the two parties in St. Lucia is what takes place in the House of Commons. uh the uh prime minister's questions PMQs where the opposition is given an opposition opportunity to put direct questions to in the first instance the prime minister and the executive on specific issues.

[00:41:14]What say you about introducing PMQ into St. Lucia? Okay, before I answer that, let me just also say that Minister of Agriculture Lisa Jawah here >> is the vice president of the committee within part America's the first OECS national >> to hold that position. Oh wow.

[00:41:33]>> Now back to your question.

[00:41:36]>> We have had the presiding officers discussions with the prime minister on the question of prime minister's question. He's not averse to it. But of course the standing orders first need to allow that. The standing orders are currently under review and that is an inclusion in it and I rather suspect in this term the revised standing orders will be implemented.

[00:42:02]>> What does Urskin may say about PMQ? Is that something which is >> No, that that's something that's um at the discretion of the um >> presiding officer >> relevant parliaments. But you speak about questions.

[00:42:16]>> There is already a provision in our standing orders for questions to be asked of ministers both orally and written. Every time the house meets, the order paper includes a section questions.

[00:42:35]Any member of the house may put to the pri presiding officer written questions to be answered in the house. Once those questions meet the standards set out in the standing orders they are put on, a minister can only refuse to answer on two grounds. one national security and they can defer the question if they are not yet in a position to answer but they cannot defer indefinitely. The presiding officer will force them at some point to answer a deferred question but the presiding officer cannot force them to answer a question not answered on the question of national security. So it's already there. But what we have is parliamentarians who don't read the standing orders, who are not aware of their rights under the standing orders.

[00:43:30]Any parliamentarian can bring a petition or a bill to be debated in parliament.

[00:43:35]It may fail because of numbers, but you can bring it. But you would agree that a dedicated session focused on questions from one side of the house could create an opportunity and a platform for better engagement, more accountability.

[00:43:50]>> Absolutely. But for dialogue, >> but don't be deluded into believing you can ask any question.

[00:43:56]>> Of course, within you would notice even in PMQs in the UK, >> the speaker calls on people.

[00:44:04]>> How does he call on people? Because he has the questions. uh >> the questions are given to him. He doesn't just say Mr. So and so he the questions are given to him in advance.

[00:44:14]They may be follow-up questions which he doesn't have but the primary questions are given. That is why he can stand up and say Mr. Favory, Mr. John, Mr. Paul.

[00:44:23]It's not because he knows everybody. He has the questions in advance. I have actually been present in the chamber at PNQ in the comments.

[00:44:33]Let me be a little bit provocative.

[00:44:39]I think since independence we've had what six or seven prime ministers.

[00:44:43]>> Yeah.

[00:44:43]>> Seven.

[00:44:45]How would you rank the three ones which I think may be subject to the most scrutiny? How would you rank Sir John, Philip J. Pierre and Kenya Anthony?

[00:45:00]Before I answer, let me go let me say something.

[00:45:05]The unfortunate aspect of Sir John's tenure is that it was before social media.

[00:45:13]I think social media changes everything about how people uh are rated. That said, any fair analysis would rank Sir John tremendously high.

[00:45:31]When you move from 0 to 5, >> it is more significant than moving from five to 10.

[00:45:42]Because if you have nothing and you consider Rodney Bay development, the Pigeon Point Causeway joining the two, these are significant infrastructural developments that you cannot now do because they done already.

[00:46:02]So with the Kenny Anthony and Philip JPierre, their tenure would be marked more by personal development as opposed to infrastructure because they got an infrastructure that was there. They could just improve upon it. I mean what could Philip Jpier and Kenny Anthony do? Build new airports. We already have two. Build new seapports. There are about five from Rodney Bay, Margo, Viewfort.

[00:46:32]So they are limited basically in the huge infrastructural developments they can do build another um dam you can't it's done so they are never going to compare to John comedan in terms of those developments in terms of personnel people structured it'll be difficult to beat Kenny Anthony and Philip JP >> if So ranking them for me is is something one ought not to do. Different eras, different times, different priorities.

[00:47:10]>> But you look at electional outcomes 16152.

[00:47:16]Surely you would have to say that reflects a certain level of u acceptance. Well, let's not forget Kenny Antony's first 16-1 was opposition >> unknown quantity because Kenny had just come in into 1996 to to politics when he won 161 in 1997.

[00:47:37]So to say an acceptance of him would be a misreading of of of history because nobody had known him or what he could do. He was coming from 15 years Labor Party of opposition.

[00:47:52]>> So, Philip JPER in 2021 was a different thing. He was a known commodity. People knew what he could do. So, when they elected him as 161, you can say it was an acceptance of having known him.

[00:48:07]>> But yeah, but politics is not only acceptance of someone, >> it's also rejection of somebody else.

[00:48:14]And people had seen what had transpired between 2016 and 2021.

[00:48:20]The current leader of the opposition may never wish to accept it. But the reality is there was a perception by the population of arrogance.

[00:48:31]>> It is difficult for one to accept that >> I was arrogant. But it's not even about whether or not you are arrogant.

[00:48:37]>> It is about what people perceive you to be.

[00:48:39]>> But I think we digress a little bit. I think the the in the pantheon of the Greeks as it were uh there must be some sentimentality or subjective as it may be interpretation of those two leaders. No, I think they're different because as I said the times what they concentrated on Sir John was infrastructure.

[00:49:06]>> Kenny Anthony brought in labor code, >> the equality of pay for women in the workplace. That's a significant thing because what we have what we had before was a male manager making $500. You put a woman in the same position, you gave her 300. That act outlawed that >> progress was made. social.

[00:49:28]>> Absolutely. Um domestic violence bill.

[00:49:33]>> You have um legis uh what should I say improvement of access to to the court system. So these were human development aspects. So where Kenny and Pier are into human development so join was infrastructure.

[00:49:52]So I don't compare them. But you would say that with if we did not have the economic and uh foundation that the progress which may have been realized subsequently would have been impossible.

[00:50:07]>> Well, I don't know about economic foundation because >> you speak about speak about the airports, the roads, the dams. Well, that's infrastructural economic pillars because when Sir John returned to office in 2006, 2007, >> in his budget address, >> he praised Kenny Anony's stewardship of the economy. And did he absolutely go back to the 2007 budget and you'll see where he said he was inheriting. It's there. Don't take my word for it. It's there. But but you would agree that um uh the economic expansion that St. Lucia enjoyed between 1982 and uh circa 1995 would be unprecedented.

[00:50:55]>> I don't know unprecedented. It was good.

[00:51:00]I don't know if unprecedented because unprecedented is an overused word. So for example, between 2021 and 2025, the economy grew every year. Somebody would say that's unprecedented, especially the level of growth, 3% and more.

[00:51:17]>> So I think the word unprecedented is an overuse um political phrase. Yeah.

[00:51:23]>> Thank you so much uh for the cander. U really appreciate that. We'll be right back after this break. This podcast is brought to you by IBS, Harbor Club, Tropical Solar, and 1461 Enterprise, distributors of the world's best coffees.

[00:51:40]>> Welcome back. So, you have the distinction um based on my research of being the second longest serving presiding officer, I think, beaten only by Sinclair Daniel at this point.

[00:51:55]Walk us through your perception of the difference between presiding over the upper chamber, the house of the senate and the lower chamber, the house of assembly. Is there a substantial difference in the approach he took?

[00:52:12]>> There is. But let me go back to your previous question to say that finally on that point of prime ministers, so John was a man of the people. Kenyan was a man of the people. But I believe when history is finally settled, Philip J.

[00:52:27]Pierre will be considered the people's prime minister.

[00:52:30]>> But to your question, there is a fundamental difference going back to what I said earlier on of politicians playing to the gallery.

[00:52:42]>> The Senate was largely designed for professional people to debate the policies of the lower house.

[00:52:51]But more and more the Senate is becoming a breeding ground for aspiring politicians, people that may want to get into elective politics so they get a grounding and a national audience in the Senate.

[00:53:09]I may be biased, but I think the greatest Senate ever assembled was between January 6, 2012 >> and June 16th, 2016. June 6, 2016.

[00:53:25]>> Who >> best debates that ever took place in the Senate took place then?

[00:53:29]>> Who were the standout performers if you could recall?

[00:53:31]>> Jimmy Fletcher. There was Jimmy.

[00:53:35]There was >> Philip Lobinier.

[00:53:38]Stanley Felix, >> Stephen King, Buria Paul, Isel Joseph, Spider Mon to um was >> But do you the the the >> it was the quality of the debate then?

[00:53:56]>> The upper house was established as a place for sober reflection.

[00:54:04]>> Well, not really. If you have to go back in the historicity of it, you have to go back to England >> when there was no parliament in England.

[00:54:14]>> But the king relied on lords that he appointed to advise him. And then the people began to rebel saying, "But wait, we have no say in how we attack etc. >> No representation."

[00:54:31]And the king decided okay I will form a house where you peasants can participate >> commons >> but they are commoners so I'm going to call the house of commons >> even today centuries later and today the king's speech was was given the king is forbidden from going into the house of commons because he's royalty >> so the king's speech which is our throne speech is done in the house of lords >> and the commoners are invited to come to the house of lords to hear the king.

[00:55:04]>> Isn't that an odious relic of the past?

[00:55:06]>> Well, yeah, but that's where our senate came from. Our senate is the house of lords.

[00:55:11]>> In fact, in our standing orders, even currently the Senate cannot sit between 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. That's when the Lord took tea.

[00:55:23]>> Now, we suspend it, >> but that must be >> Yeah, but it is. But we suspend it to allow the Senate to continue. But it's in the rules.

[00:55:32]So it's and more and more in England, the rule of the House of Lords is diluted.

[00:55:40]Is diluted to the point where as of now, >> the House of Lords can no longer defeat legislation.

[00:55:48]>> Well, so it's a rubber stamp then.

[00:55:50]>> It's not a rubber stamp. I mean, >> has the Senate ever checked the powers of the House?

[00:55:56]>> Yeah. Between 2016, >> Give me an example of one. Between 2016 and 2021, the government attempted to pass a bill dealing with commerce.

[00:56:05]>> It was a hill and there was no >> no the island administration >> and it was defeated in the senate and when is defeated in the senate it cannot come back to the house >> an amendment un amended >> for no for 6 months. M >> so it does have substantive power >> except on a money bill going back to the no taxation without representation. So any bill that the speaker writes to the senate president saying this is a money bill they cannot stop it. So you seem to be and in our conversations in the past to be a very contemplative reflective individual and of course you have enormous responsibility as the presiding officer.

[00:56:57]You are the let's say maestro uh conducting that orchestra which is the legislative process the sausage factory which is our house of assembly.

[00:57:12]As speaker looking back is there anything that you could look at and think maybe I could have did done this differently? Okay, before I go into that, the question about the Senate, imagine the Senate is considered to be the upper house.

[00:57:28]>> Yes.

[00:57:29]>> So protocol-wise, you call the president of the Senate before you call the speaker of the house.

[00:57:35]>> Absolutely. The political ranking is higher.

[00:57:37]>> Yeah. But authority >> resides in the speaker and the lower house.

[00:57:43]>> So that's an anomaly. Not again because it's a relic of the British system where the lords rank higher than the commoners.

[00:57:52]But your question, there are always things you could have handled better.

[00:57:57]>> There are always things on reflection you could have done differently. Not that they were in error >> necessarily.

[00:58:05]>> But would you acknowledge error?

[00:58:07]>> Of course. Of course I have acknowledged error openly in the house. I recall the member of Acastry Southeast was speaking and his time had run out and I told him so and he continued for another 10 minutes and I discontinued his presentation. I could have done it differently and I said so in the house and I apologized to him.

[00:58:31]>> Very good.

[00:58:32]Now the role of the presiding officer I'm not sure there is a fixed objective let's say description of that role.

[00:58:46]Would you say the responsibility that you carry is one of a referee between two teams or a judge?

[00:58:56]>> The the terms are interchangeable if you think about him. The person conducts the affairs of the debate to ensure everybody is given an opportunity to debate.

[00:59:10]He enforces he or she enforces the rules of the house. He or she enforces disciplinarys.

[00:59:18]>> So that makes him or her the judge in the chamber. In fact, the standing orders say the decision of a standing of a presiding officer is unimpeachable in terms of being open to debate. You can't debate it. So if that's not judged and nothing is judged, >> what is your view of of the ranking of the legislative as well as the uh judicial branches in our constitutional democracy there is parliamentary uh supremacy or sovereignty. Would you say that the judiciary would be co-equal or subservient to parliament?

[01:00:06]>> There are co-equal branches, but even if you have co-equal, there's always one that takes predominance.

[01:00:13]>> So who would that be >> at a stage? It depends on the stage.

[01:00:17]>> So even if you have triplets, one of them did come first, but they're triplets.

[01:00:22]So you look at the constitution, it is not accidental that the first chamber that is mentioned in the constitution at section 23 is the parliament >> because everything else comes from the parliament. You cannot be a member of the executive which is the second branch without first being a member of the parliament whether through the senate or the house of assembly. You cannot become a minister except if you are one of the two. So the executive comes from the legislature.

[01:00:59]>> But the the judiciary cannot function without the legislature and the executive funding them.

[01:01:08]>> The f only one authority can fund government and that is the legislature. The prime minister could not write a bank and say, "I'm authorizing a loan of $4,000."

[01:01:23]He must bring a motion to the parliament. The parliament authorizes the loan. And it is that authority the finance minister takes to lending institutions to borrow money.

[01:01:36]>> But the courts can deem a bill to be unconstitutional.

[01:01:40]>> Unconstitutional. But we just go back and amend what the court has said is wrong. But the court cannot decide beyond what we legislate. If we legislate the penalty to be $100, a judge can think a particular crime to be sufficiently egregious that the penalty ought to be $2,000. They're limited to the 100 that we have authorized. Now the courts don't like us putting limits on the authority. So we are careful to say a maximum of and what is exactly given is left to the judge. But the parliament can engage in bills or in motions or or uh which may be a perversion of the spirit of the constitution >> and the courts will decide that and the parliament will go back and amend to to to suit with what the court say before but there is also the ability of parliament to limit the court's ability.

[01:02:47]So for example, the court has no authority to inquire into parliamentary procedure >> even on the standing orders.

[01:02:56]>> Well, the standing orders under the constitution are derived by the parliament.

[01:03:02]>> So it's a croissant.

[01:03:03]>> Absolutely.

[01:03:04]>> Now we touched briefly on the fusion of the two branches executive and legislative branch. So the executive, the ministers, the the all the ministers are also legislators legislators.

[01:03:20]If we were to engage in parliament uh constitutional reform, do you believe that separating those two branches to allow the MPs to go out into the constituencies to engage as representatives of the people and allow the executive to focus exclusively on the executive function which is may ports the roads the uh economy more generally would be a better approach rather than having that joint responsibility placed on the member of a of parliament to see after all the infrastructure then go run onto your constituency, listen to all of the challenges that you face at the constituency level and then come back to the parliament to debate bills. Do you not think that it would be better to divorce those two responsibilities?

[01:04:09]>> You know, there's a saying, you don't know if the chicken snores unless you sleep in the coupe. No system is perfect. the Republican system, which is largely your question, where the legislature is different to the executive and the legislature is supposed to hold the executive to account. You only have to look at what's happening today. It's not working. It all comes down to the individuals.

[01:04:34]There's the War Powers Act, which gives Congress the right to declare war. You know what's happening.

[01:04:41]our system, the Westminster system which is practiced in the Commonwealth, largely in the Commonwealth where there is an almost incestuous relationship between the legislature and the executive because the members of the executive as I said earlier emanate from the legislature.

[01:05:02]It has its downs, it has its ups.

[01:05:07]you have the hybrid system as is practiced in a place like Guyana where it's a first pass the post and also a proportional it still doesn't work but so what you need is to try to incorporate everything and even that doesn't work if people are not men and women of goodwill no system can work >> but surely under the British Westminster system there are far less god rails. For example, if the the government decides to pass a bill which would make Sunday a working day and Saturday a holiday, there's nothing constitutionally which would prevent them.

[01:05:56]No, but no, there is nothing constitutionally in any system that prevents the government from doing that.

[01:06:02]It has nothing to do with 161. So for example, Boris Johnson had a massive majority in the commons.

[01:06:11]Committee hearings on CO his handling of CO brought him down. But the committees >> are what holds you to account and it is who comprises the committee and the honor of the men and women in the committee. It's not the system. It's whether or not you have honorable men and women to hold account.

[01:06:31]>> The backbenches could check the government in St. Lucia it is at least in my in recent past I've never seen a backbencher check or stand up >> but what does that have to do with the system that has to do with the individual >> the point is >> so for example in Barbados same system like ours >> so you've seen backers you've seen backers challenge the government absolutely in St. Lia, >> how do you think um maybe >> Sandford in Barbados? How do you think Sanford >> in St. Lucia? I think maybe Odlam or we have the same system in St. Lucia. So, it's not the system, it's the individuals.

[01:07:12]>> Okay. Uh you've been persuasive, but I'm not quite sure.

[01:07:16]>> Let's go to the final two questions. Um there has been heightened political tribalism. Some may say we shouldn't even have this conversation. I disagree.

[01:07:28]Um, we have to be able to talk to each other. We may see things differently, but I believe that people are trying to solve problems in different ways. They may have different perspectives, but I may not agree with the approach. You may not be approach agree with mine, but we can have a conversation, a civil conversation. I think there's a wedge in the society. We become very tribal. If you one color, you can't talk to another color. If you go if you your your your cousin is getting christened only certain people should be there.

[01:08:00]Are politicians responsible for that really deep wedge which has really forced itself on our society? We were not like this before. Surely we were not like this before.

[01:08:11]>> Well, I don't know if we were not like this before. It's more open now because of social media. In the old days, I think the the the adversarial situation was just as fierce. I remember growing up in the CDC when George Mallet, we go in the market steps or the EWP goes to Mark Vain's corner on St. Louis Street, Coral Street, sorry, and the battles were just as fierce. It is more in the public domain now because of um social media. I can tell you of certain things that were said on platforms. People people a a candidate was arrested on a platform once for saying something. You know, Sinclair Daniel was disbared by the courts from running for politics because of something he said in a platform, you know.

[01:09:09]>> Wow.

[01:09:10]But >> but that that is stoked also by politicians and political parties, right?

[01:09:15]>> Because because the average person sees it because of social media. They couldn't see it before.

[01:09:21]>> So it's now become more prevalent. Um it's like some crimes or okay, let me put it this way. You talk about teenage pregnancy.

[01:09:38]Go back in history.

[01:09:40]Teenage pregnancy has always been prevalent in St. Lucia. And I don't say I condone it. I'm just telling you my mother was a teenage mother. You just go back to just that generation. But it's it appears more what changed was my mother's mother was there to help her along.

[01:10:00]>> So a lot of our generation were actually raised by our grandparents, >> but that's not prevalent today. So, it's not that there's a greater situation of teenage pregnancy. It's just more apparent.

[01:10:12]>> I fear though that um and I think it was Abraham Lincoln um in his famous speech, I want to say Gettysburg, but is perhaps not where he said a house divided unto itself will fall >> only fall but will can never stand.

[01:10:32]And I fear unless we can find common cause and we don't run to our own corners, we don't create animosity and hatred that I could talk to you, I could talk to anybody, you could talk to me, you could have a drink with me, that we will be a divided house which will never stand. And it is my hope as well that people from all stripes could have discussions about solving problems. But I think it is up to the politicians to lead by example. Would you not say so?

[01:11:03]>> Oh, absolutely. Everything you said is correct. But since you're quoting Lincoln, let me quote Lincoln, too. It was Lincoln who said, "The best way to destroy your enemy is to make him your friend." And he lived it.

[01:11:18]James Stanton was opposed to Lincoln and on a public platform threatened to kill Lincoln. Lincoln won the election and made James Stanton his secretary of state war >> and it was James Stanton who eulogized Abraham Lincoln. If the immortal words, he no longer belongs to us. He belongs to the ages.

[01:11:46]>> And you know they called it his cabinet if you recall team of rivals.

[01:11:51]>> Mhm. No, the team of rivals was um Barack Obama's cabinet.

[01:11:56]>> Yes. But it came the term was coined by Joy um uh could Goodwin the writer from a book on Lincoln because he actually brought in different people from man that the best way to destroy your enemy is to make him your friend.

[01:12:12]>> Now, let's move on. Two final questions.

[01:12:16]>> Claudius Francis, Dr. the Honorable Claudius Francis.

[01:12:23]We never given the opportunity to do it over again.

[01:12:27]But if you were afforded an opportunity to do it all over again, what would you do differently?

[01:12:35]>> Not much. I think I have lived a fruitful life. I think I have not accomplished what I aim to do. I think I have surpassed that. So I'm grateful for that. And I'm also grateful that to all the people who assisted me. I may be the face of that success, but it didn't happen without a lot a lot of people. My even my infant school teachers. So I'm always grateful for my primary school teachers like Peter Plumber and Brendan Hippolit. my SMC teachers like Kendall Hollet and some others. I still call Kendall who is a wrong still of great reverence. I want to call him man sir and he says to me no call him Kender but that's pretty so um the police force all my schooling was paid for >> oh >> by the police force for scholarships I'm grateful to them so there's not much I do different but there always regrets along the well I don't have regrets >> you have lessons that you learn >> I have lessons that I have learned but regrets unlike Frank Sinatra I've had a few but but I don't call them regrets. I learn from them.

[01:13:47]>> Very good.

[01:13:47]>> So that's that's what that's what I do.

[01:13:49]>> Finally, Claudius Francis, when this show is over, not this 1461, but when this contribution that you're making is over, what would you want to be remembered for? What would you want your legacy to be? I don't know about a legacy, but people ask me what I remember most as a presiding officer.

[01:14:17]2015, Ezekiel Joseph and Spider Mont were opposition senators and the opposition leader had decided to change them to bring in Dominic Fede and Mary Isaac.

[01:14:38]And in both of the parting speeches bearing in mind between 20 2006 and 2011 they were respectively agriculture and sports ministers and they were in opposition 2011 to 2016. In 2015 when they were leaving the Senate they both stood up and said Mr. President I want to thank you. You have been the fairest and most instructive presiding officers we have served under. And these are two people who have served under presiding officers appointed by their own party.

[01:15:17]>> And they said that to me that is my lasting memory of something in parliament.

[01:15:23]>> Claudius Francis, thank you so very much for joining us. And to you, I hope you enjoyed this discussion as much as I did. See you soon on the next episode of the 1461 podcast.

[01:15:36]>> This has been the 1461 podcast. Thanks for watching. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok, and Spotify.

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