专访前美国宗教自由大使布朗巴克：“宗教自由”是对抗中共的最佳武器之一

[00:00:00]Ambassador Brownback, thank you so much for speaking with Voice of America.

[00:00:04]>> Oh, happy to join you, Peggy, and thank you for what you do and what Voice of America does and getting this message out. So, I really appreciate your willingness to to cover these difficult topics, tough topics.

[00:00:15]>> Ambassador Brownback, you have been a champion for international religious freedom and human rights conditions in China for decades. What motivates you to care so deeply about these issues?

[00:00:26]>> It's probably my own faith. Um, I'm I'm a follower of Jesus, have been for a long time. And uh I I see people being persecuted and I know of cases being persecuted and I know we're in a position in the United States to do something about it, to press back on this, to stand up for our brothers and sisters in Christ who are being persecuted. And so it just really rubs me. Uh and perhaps too, it's my own background and that was raised in Eastern Kansas. My mom was raised on the property where John Brown would stay when he was in the state, the great freedom abolitionist of the time. And so maybe it was in the soil. Uh and I grabbed it from there as well. But um when I when I see people so in in burdened and and so in chained and enslaved, it just really wrankles me.

[00:01:18]And particularly when it's about an issue of the heart, it's their soul that's being uh kept from being able to practice their own faith. Just it really burdens me.

[00:01:29]>> Because of your advocacy, you are now barred from entering China. In your view, how has the human rights conditions and religious freedom differ under President Xi Jinping comparing to previous Chinese leaders?

[00:01:43]>> It's gotten so much worse under President Xi. Um, you know, before under the Dunca Ping era that I kind of put that there was an opening. There was a loosening. There was an economic loosening and there was also a religious loosening. House churches were able to somewhat operate. People could move around freely. They weren't persecuted for their faith. and all that's come crashing down uh to where you're probably in a situation now more comparable to Mao and the great cultural revolution uh than anything else in the in the sphere of time that the Chinese Communist Party has been in power. It has gotten so much worse and the technology has gotten so much better.

[00:02:25]They're really able to go at target people, pull them out, put them in prison, disappear them. Um it's really gotten terrible.

[00:02:34]>> You have a new book coming out called China's Warren Faith. And in this book, you talked about how um the CCP is engaging in a worldwide coordinated high-tech campaign to eradicate religious identity. Could you please unpack that for us?

[00:02:51]>> Well, I think what you really have taking place is literally two systems at war with each other. You've got this Chinese communist authoritarian cabal axis of evil that China's accumulated on its side with Iran and Russia and uh countries like Nicaragua and previously we'll see where Venezuela ends up with Cuba. Uh and then you've got basically Western civilization on the other side of it that believes in the dignity of the individual. the Judeo-Christian belief that every single person is created in the image of God and has inherent worth, unalienable rights, and they descend from God. And the other side, it descends all from government, all rights, all authority. Uh, and these systems are they're in a clash with each other. I think that's the big picture of what's taking place. We stood off against the Soviet Union for decades on this picture and now the Chinese Communist Party has stood up to to take that on further. The problem is the Chinese Communist Party has figured out how to do the economy and the Soviets never could. And they've got technology and surveillance abilities and capacities that the Soviet Union could only dream of. So, we're going up against a much tougher system this time around than we were the other time around. And one of our key weapons we can use against that is religious freedom because the the communist fear religious freedom more than they fear our aircraft carriers or our nuclear weapons. It's the freedom of the soul.

[00:04:25]They can't tolerate that and we should use that tactically and strategically against them.

[00:04:31]>> In your book, you describe three ongoing genocides targeting weaguer Muslims, Tibetan Buddhists, and Fallong practitioners. What is happening to these groups that led you to categorize these actions as genocides?

[00:04:44]>> Well, the the first one's been held uh as a genocide by the US government, many other governments against the the Muslim Weaguers. And it's interesting to me that in the interviews that I do with a lot of Weaggguers, they're kind of okay, the Chinese Communists are with Weaguer identity, but not the Muslim identity.

[00:05:02]China is the only country in the world, I've found that you cannot legally name a child Muhammad. can't even use the name. Uh so they're not trying to wipe out the weaguers, they're trying to wipe out the Muslims within it. And then the Tibetan Buddhist, uh the Dali Lama can't return to his homeland. Haven't been able to. They've been wiping them out culturally and physically for decades now. and fallen gong practitioners. Um, which you know is this is this sort of blending really of Buddhism and Dowoism and some confusion with it, but it's it's very natural to the Chinese soil.

[00:05:39]It's what grandmother used to do. Uh, and they go at these guys with forest organ harvesting and arresting and killing and just the most horrific ways.

[00:05:51]So all three of them they're trying to wipe out. And that's really basically your definition of genocide is going at a specific group of people and trying to destroy and eliminate that group. And that's what they're doing.

[00:06:04]>> In your book, you also talk about the intensifying of persecution against Christians. And we've seen report after report about demolition of churches, arrest of pastors. Um, what are you hearing from Chinese Christians? And what do you think is happening to Christians and Christianity in China? I think you're seeing the worst persecution that they've experienced really since the Mao era. I think Xiinping is scared. U I think um uh he's seeing more and more that you've got this expansion of Christianity that's taken place in China. It's been one of the fastest growing Christian churches on the planet for the last really number of years. And nobody knows the actual numbers, but could be well north of 100 million Christians in China. And I think it scares them because they don't control that. And Christianity at its core with this belief of individual rights that descend from God, not from government with this idea that you have inherent worth as a d as a dignified individual. Um, and that we're all created equal in the eyes of God is just such an assault on what Xiinping and the control structure that the Chinese Communist Party demands. We feature uh pastor Wang Yi uh in the book who was a public intellectual in China before he started a church. Uh and at one point in time in one sermon he says we're all sinners uh and that includes Xiinping and he must confess and repent of his sins. And I looked at that and I thought what a gutsy guy. You know what's going to happen when you call President Xiinping a sinner. And yet he does it.

[00:07:42]That's the nature of the the the character of so many of these Chinese Christians willing to speak truth to power boldly even if it cost them their lives or their freedom and they do it.

[00:07:55]>> Another theme in your book is that you said China is using high tech um new technologies such as AI power surveillance and facial recognition, DNA matching to control how millions practice their faiths. Could you walk us through how these technologies are being used?

[00:08:12]>> You know, they they literally now can find the needle in the haststack. Uh that one pastor, that one hidden church leader that talks and moves around with lots of other people, they can find him or her now. And they used to not be able to. It was a very heavy man-intensive effort. Now, with facial recognition systems, with the the voice recognition, with um requiring everybody that has a cell phone on for location devices to be on, um they can look for keywords, sort through billions of words and find that little string uh in here and find the individual. But it's not just it doesn't stop there. They export that technology to other dictators and authoritarians.

[00:08:58]They're making dictators better dictators. And if their religious people in their country uh don't tow the line of what the dictatorship wants, they can go after those leaders like we've seen taking place in Nicaragua most recently.

[00:09:11]We've seen taking place in Burma. Um you're seeing them making dictators better dictators. Uh and we've really got to put push back against these systems. And we should push that that the surveillance systems cannot be used to oppress people of faith or any human right. We should push that in the international forums as well that you cannot use that. Now, I don't pretend to believe that the Chinese will comply with that, but we should make it an embarrassing issue and something that they have to push back on in international forums.

[00:09:45]>> In the last decade, the CCP has engaging in a whole of society lobbying and influencing campaign all over the world.

[00:09:53]In your book, you call for the total ban of CCP lobbying in the US. If US were to take a first step to ban CCP lobbying, what steps should it take first?

[00:10:05]>> You can pass a law. Uh you can make that as a a part of um uh the foreign lobbying uh registration and just say you can't lobby on behalf of a Chinese entity entity uh and and ban that. Um you know it this is the sort of thing that a decade ago was pretty open. And there were a number of former members of Congress that were lobbying for Chinese companies. Uh the Chinese companies were coming into this economy directly and uh and aggressively. Uh but you've seen over the last couple years this real pullback and you're starting to see now this splitting of the two economies. The two economies between China and the US had grown so closely together. Uh but now under Xiinping and his aggressive position and and and his war against the west. Whether we realize we're at war with them, they are at war with us. Uh so now you're seeing these supply chains break apart, foreign direct investment in China go down, those trends are going to continue as long as you have somebody like Xi Jinping running uh running China. I think we should just pass that law and say no, you can't lobby on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party or a company or entity that's associated with them or the the People's Liberation Army or any other group that's directly affiliated with the Chinese government.

[00:11:26]Uh and and I'd liken it to can you imagine uh that we would allow people to to lobby for the Nazi regime and Hitler uh for Stalin? And yet the Chinese Communist Party has killed more of its own people than any regime in the history of mankind, bar none. And nobody else is even close. And we allow them to freely operate here. I I think really we should back up and say no. No more.

[00:11:57]>> Back to your book, China's War on Faith.

[00:11:59]You said that the CCP may be winning this battle. How can the US take steps to guard against this um threat and prevent that from happening?

[00:12:10]>> They are they have been at war with us for some period of time. And we've got to first wake up and realize we're at war with them. When Ronald Reagan first confronted the Soviet Union, we were in a period we call Dayton. uh where okay you got your area we got our area and we'll just kind of maybe we'll wrestle over the middle areas but it was a day ton we're going to tolerate each other and Reagan comes in and says no this is an evil empire uh and the the solution to this is we win they lose but you had to first convince the American public we were at war with them and that the Soviet Union was at war with us. We've got to first convince the American public that the Chinese Communist Party is at war with us. uh and tell them and and showcase what's taking place, showcase the transnational oppression.

[00:12:57]There's any number of Chinese uh in this country that have been and continue to be sincere people of faith that I talked to that have experienced transnational oppression in the United States.

[00:13:09]That has to stop and we have to stop that. I think the the president, secretary of state, vice president should meet with um Chinese that have been persecuted in their own country for their faith and showcase those examples.

[00:13:21]I think we ought to hold a meeting of world leaders, world world religious leaders and call for religious freedom for everybody everywhere all the time including in China and as we host the G20 summit, we should make religious freedom one of the key pillars of that summit of what we discuss. I mean, those are steps we can take to start showing and talking to the American public and the Chinese. We're serious about this.

[00:13:46]This is a core conviction of ours in our 250th year anniversary and we were founded on religious freedom. We continue to stand boldly and will stand for this right.

[00:13:56]>> Is there any message you would like to send to our audience in China and all over the world, especially those who are persecuted because of their faiths? the uh the Jewish refusnix in the Soviet era, when they first heard that Ronald Reagan was talking about them and their plight and their persecution, they would send signals around the goolog that they were in uh in Siberia and it gave them hope. The leader of the free world was talking about their plight. Now, they were still in the goolog. They were still in horrific cond conditions, but it gave them hope. And that's what I would hope the Chinese dissident and the Chinese people of faith would have right now is hope. We are talking about this. We know this is an issue. We know what your plight is and we're not going to stop until you are free.

[00:14:50]>> Thank you so much, Ambassador Brownback, for speaking with us.

[00:14:53]>> Thank you, Peggy.