What we know about the police investigation into Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor

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[00:00:00]Andrew Mountbatten Windsor under investigation for sexual offenses under the umbrella of misconduct in public office. Our understanding [music] is that the police investigation does now include a potential sexual offense or offenses.

[00:00:14]>> In the first update since his arrest, police say it's a complicated and fast-moving investigation. It is moving uh we're told at pace, but it is going to take uh a long time.

[00:00:25]>> Plus what the late Queen really thought about Andrew's appointment as trade envoy. All of that new detail that we've never seen before again it plays into that nickname that he had at the time which was Air Miles Andy. It was her sincere wish that that her son Andrew did get this prominent position on the international stage.

[00:00:48]Hello and uh welcome to Talking Royals.

[00:00:50]I'm Charlene White and Chris and Lizzie are here.

[00:00:54]And we've had something we were not necessarily expecting. As we understand it, the man formerly known as Prince Andrew, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, is being investigated for sexual offenses under the umbrella of misconduct in public office. What have we found out? So, this is a development on an an issue that was already ongoing. So, people will remember that the former prince was arrested on his birthday in February and he was taken into custody for the day and at the end of that day, you might remember that very famous photograph of him now in the back of the car. He was arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office following the release of the Epstein files in the previous weeks that were of course all over the news and on this podcast extensively. Um it's our understanding that misconduct in public office is not just about potential uh criminality under bribery or uh fraud. It can also include, and I think you checked this on the the the Crown Prosecution Service website, it can also include sexual offenses and our understanding is that the police investigation, this is Thames Valley Police which covers the Windsor area, their investigation does now include a potential sexual offense or offenses.

[00:02:17]So, those those are the developments that we have. And it's not that they the case has been broadened, is it, Lizzie?

[00:02:24]Um sexual offense is already comes under conduct in in misconduct in in public office. And just to say that Andrew Mountbatten Windsor has always strongly denied any um any accusations or any alleged misconduct. Um so, what have we learnt from this in terms of the the the the update from from from police? So, I think we should start by saying that it is a very complex uh investigation. It is moving but we're told at pace, uh but it is going to take a long time. It is a lengthy process um and they've got a lot to go through.

[00:03:03]Witnesses have come forward but there's a lot of information to go through. But uh you'll remember those images, Chris just mentioned them, uh from February, those images when he was released from Elsham police station. And I think you know, it was so unprecedented, wasn't it, seeing those images that day, having the sibling of a monarch uh being arrested and taken into police custody and being questioned uh for 12 hours. And uh there's been a lot of public interest in this uh case. But uh yeah, just some clarifications on exactly what police are investigating.

[00:03:40]>> So, just cuz as you said, I'd gone on to um the Crown Prosecution Service's uh website, the CPS website, just so we could have a look at exactly what comes under this umbrella of misconduct in public office. And yes, all the things that you said that we had looked at previously. But yes, if you go down on if you go on the website, it does include cases involving abuse of position for sexual purpose. And under that, members of the public, it says, expect to be able to trust persons who hold positions of power to act professionally and to not use their position to instigate or attempt to instigate sexual or otherwise inappropriate relationships. So, when we talk about it being underneath the umbrella of, there are several things that comes into this. And I know that you've sort of said, "Lisa, this is unprecedented." We cannot underestimate in any shape or form What is it? Five centuries since um the sibling of a reigning monarch has been arrested by police. And when you look at that umbrella term of misconduct in public office, it's it's broad, isn't it, Chris?

[00:04:43]Yes, so let's take ourselves back to February and and what a significant day that was. You know, incidentally, it was his birthday, but importantly, it was an arrest of the younger brother of the reigning monarch, and he was taken into custody. Now, perhaps there was an assumption uh perhaps in the media or with members of the public that misconduct in public office was very limited. It was to do with I know it's potentially some emails that were or were not sent uh from uh given given access to to sensitive information. But uh you clarified that quite clearly that it does include sexual offenses, and therefore, although this investigation hasn't been widened, this story becomes that much more important because of all the police investigations and assessments, as they call them, into all the claims over many years now. We've had the Metropolitan Police, Essex Police who deal with the uh uh airport at Stansted, uh Surrey Police are looking into things as well. Of all of those assessments that police have been doing. Never before has the former Prince Andrew faced a criminal investigation into sex offenses.

[00:05:56]Our understanding now is that is that's the big change. That's what we're talking about here. That that that that the the prince, as he was known, who's always denied all the allegations against him over many many years, he is now being investigated by police under the same investigation, but that does include sexual offenses. Lizzie, how can you because as you say this has been, you know, this back and forth has been going on for for many years, but how did we end up at this point? Um we remember when he stripped from his stripped of his titles, but how we ended up at this point where he is being investigated for under this umbrella term. How far back do you want to go? I mean I mean you can go a very long way to when he first met Jeffrey Epstein when, you know, cuz he spoke about it in that famous interview.

[00:06:43]>> But how did the arrest happen in the first You can go back for many many years.

[00:06:46]>> Yeah. Yeah, you could go back, but I mean it just even looking back over recent months on on what's happened, you know, at the end of last year the king stripped Andrew of all his titles. He was forced out of Royal Lodge and exiled essentially to Norfolk to the the Sandringham estate. There have been various drops of the Epstein files. There's been millions of documents that that people have been trawling through. And in those documents they appeared to show that Andrew maintained a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein after he had claimed that that he had been to New York and said that they would no longer have any contact and that followed Jeffrey Epstein's time in in prison.

[00:07:38]There have been uh The arrest came following the the recent drop of emails that was earlier this year and in that it appeared to show that um And also after reading his book book >> Yeah and but those emails or those documents that were released earlier this year appeared to show that Andrew had potentially been passing sensitive information to Jeffrey Epstein when he was in the role of trade envoy. It was a role he held from 2001 to 2011 and the arrest followed those allegations. So but there is an interesting bit of law here, isn't there? Because the investigation will also include whether or not the man then known as Prince Andrew was in public office. Is that Is that correct? Because he was by birthright is a prince and it wasn't a job that he was paid for like a judge maybe for example or a police officer maybe. Yep. So therefore was he in public office? Has that been worked out yet?

[00:08:44]>> That is the difficult test that Thames Valley Police have to now prove and they've got to meet a threshold that's been set by the Crown Prosecution Service. So was it public office? Sounds to Sounds like a simple question. Yeah, of course yes or no. But if you're a judge or a police officer or a member of Parliament, it's quite easy. Yes, you have a job, you're paid for that job, you are in public office.

[00:09:08]Prince Andrew is no longer a prince cuz his brother took the title away from him but he was born a prince and there's been a lot of discussions about and we'll come on to this later in the podcast about how he got appointed in this trade envoy role which was from 2001 to 2011.

[00:09:23]That was not paid but his expenses were paid by government. It was kind of a role because he was called the trade envoy and there are papers which show that the foreign secretary and trade secretary at the time did approve it. So >> [snorts] >> does that meet the test? This is the big question that Thames Valley police have to meet. And does that meet the test for holding public office? And if it is proven that it wasn't public office, Well, that would be an issue for the police and the Crown Prosecution Service. And if they still think there is enough evidence to bring forward a successful prosecution because that's what the police have to do in everything from from the smallest crime to the most serious. They have to convince the Crown Prosecution Service that they have enough evidence for the successful prosecution of a an individual, you know, on the balance of of probability and yet to to put that to a a jury.

[00:10:21]>> know what? I remember when he was arrested and the three of us were in the office at the time and then we were drafted out to various different locations.

[00:10:30]And we were outside the the the palace.

[00:10:33]And I just remember just how shocked we all were that this had happened because we compare that to across the pond who have looked at developments here with keen interest because they haven't had any charges or arrested anyone of a similar stature.

[00:10:51]Um it was a surprise for us that day. I think you're right. This has had huge international interest uh not just because uh the links to Jeffrey Epstein worldwide has has had a lot of attention but also because of who Andrew Mountbatten Windsor is. He is the sibling of the monarch and you mentioned earlier this is the first time we've had the an arrest of the sibling of a monarch in more than 500 years. This is extraordinary and those photos and images that day um I mean I think they're they're historic, aren't they? I mean that word gets used a lot but I really do think they were. And I was remembering earlier, do you remember the statement that the that the King put out that day as well?

[00:11:33]And how how quickly he was to respond? You know, Buckingham Palace and the palaces often can take a while to to move on things, but on that day they were really quick, weren't they, in putting out that statement? And the King Can you remind us what it was that he said?

[00:11:50]>> Yeah, he said um that what now follows is the full, fair, and proper process by which this issue is investigated in the appropriate manner and by the appropriate authorities. In this, as I said before, they have our full and wholehearted support and cooperation.

[00:12:06]Let me state clearly, the law must take its course. And I think that's what you are saying.

[00:12:12]>> Yeah, and what did he mean by that? He said no one is above the law, and that includes my younger brother. And what we've discussed before on this podcast is any one person who is above the law, by the way, and that is the King himself, because all prosecutions are brought in his name. But anyone else, including his younger brother, is not above the law.

[00:12:29]And therefore, what the question is, well, does that statement change now?

[00:12:33]So, in that situation, would the royal household, so would the King have been informed in advance by Thames Valley Police about this particular update in the case?

[00:12:47]It's my understanding that no, the King wasn't informed and no, not were his his senior staff, cuz at the end of the day, there's probably one person the police do have to inform, and that is Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor and his lawyers.

[00:12:58]>> as King, he doesn't get preferential >> you know, that's like asking if if somebody who lives in, I don't know, the middle of Birmingham and is charged with a serious offense, would they tell their parents or their brothers? Probably not.

[00:13:10]So, again, [clears throat] I don't I think the Palace would not expect to be told about this, because if the police are going to do their job with this particular individual as they would with any other individual, which is try and find evidence, if there is any evidence there, then why tell the brother?

[00:13:28]You know, it just happens that this brother is the king.

[00:13:31]But my understanding is the palace didn't know about it in advance and nor really does that the statement that Lizzie was just reading, that doesn't really change because, you know, we still have the king saying you police people should be able to do whatever you need to do and investigate it and if you need our help, of course we'll offer you our help and no one's above the law and the law must take its, you know, must take its full force.

[00:13:54]>> And actually, do you remember on the day that Andrew was arrested, it was our understanding that the king and the royal household had not been given any advance notice of that either. And actually, I think, you know, Chris is right when when he says if if they had been told, does it look like they're getting preferential treatment and I think they want to, you know, they are sticking completely to the letter of the law here. There is no preferential treatment just because you are a member of the royal family and I think that is really important and it's important that that the public public sees that.

[00:14:25]Are we likely to get any updates as result of this from any member of the working royal family? My guess would be no on the basis that there there there's been no developments as there's no charges and there've been no like further investigations. This is a clarification of the current investigation and therefore the statement that we had from the king, which I thought was unprecedented, just, you know, a word we use a lot but it definitely definitely was.

[00:14:55]That statement doesn't need to change because, you know, as far as the palace are concerned, nothing has changed.

[00:15:00]They've told the police to investigate where they need to investigate and and they've said that no one's above the law and that includes Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor.

[00:15:07]>> And in that statement, do you remember they the king also said that him and his family would continue in duty and service to you all. And I think, you know, Andrew has been such a distraction to the royal family over recent months, over recent years. But in the last few weeks, the royal family really seem to have been able to he has been less of a distraction and >> Wait, his arrest was the arrest was February and up until that point you know, Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor was really dominating the headlines where the royal family was >> Andrew Andrew Andrew Epstein file And since then, we've had America, we've had Italy, we've had, you know, even this week, William supporting Aston Villa and all those And King Charles in Northern Ireland this week focus for a few weeks has very much been on what the royal family are doing and their work and their issues and the people and the organizations that they're supporting.

[00:16:08]And here we are again at the end of this week.

[00:16:10]>> And it sort of happened it happened earlier I mean it happened sort of the day before as well, didn't it where we had those papers released regarding the late Queen and her pushing for him to to get the role as trade envoy and also little little bits like he wasn't to play golf because he'll bring his golf clubs on any of these trade missions because it will look like essentially he's on holiday rather than being there for business. So it almost felt as if it was slowly creeping back into the headlines and then we got an update on the investigation.

[00:16:42]>> Yeah, we had the release of I think something like 11 documents from the British [clears throat] government which actually take us all the way back a little bit more than 26 years actually to January 2000 when there were discussions starting to be had in government about what do we do about Prince Andrew when he finishes his naval career which was coming the following year and there were discussions amongst the foreign secretary at the time who was Robin Cook. This is so far back we're talking about Tony Blair's first administration. And there were discussions being had about what do we do about Prince Andrew when he finishes and it coincided with the the late Queen's cousin, the Duke of Kent finishing his role as trade envoy and then the the the Queen expressed as we've now seen in these in these documents, it was her sincere wish that that her son Andrew did get this role and have a very I think as it was explained in one memo a prominent position on the international stage.

[00:17:33]Um so you know that there was already Andrew was creeping back into the news as you rightly say and not in a good way and again it's a reminder that perhaps did the late Queen have a bit of a blind spot when it came to her quotes on quotes favorite son and that she really did want him to to to have this particular role which he you know started in the autumn of 2001.

[00:17:58]So we learn lots of detail in these files including the fact that in one of them says Andrew Mountbatten Windsor prefers to travel to more sophisticated countries. What that means they they don't go into detail on what they mean by sophisticated countries. They just got problems being particularly good on high-tech matters, trade, youth and culture and he prefers ballet to the theater and as Chris mentioned that he should not be offered golfing functions.

[00:18:27]We know the Duke of the former Duke of York enjoys a game of golf but there was a explicit he should not be off offered golfing functions when he is abroad as a trade envoy.

[00:18:39]>> All of that new detail that we've never seen before again it plays into that nickname that he had at the time which was Air Miles Andy. Like you know why should his private secretary as we find out from from these documents have to make the specific point that he shouldn't be allowed to play golf and if he does take his clubs with him as as this memo tells us he should be doing it in a very you know private capacity and not anywhere that can be seen publicly because they even before they appointed him they clearly knew that that was a potential problem coming down the track. So that's why the these memos that we've now got and have just come out from the government, a lot of it are redacted because the reason they say it's been redacted was one because they don't want to damage any international relations.

[00:19:20]So, did anyone say anything not very nice about one of our European allies or America, for example. And the other is to protect some personal information that that that shouldn't be in the public domain, but it's really unusual.

[00:19:33]>> That's what I was about to say. It's This is unusual for us to actually have access to this and >> Well, well, to to hear what the Queen thought, yes, because so we hear from Sir her private secretary at the time was Sir Robin Janvrin.

[00:19:42]He had a meeting with the with the Foreign Office and and the Department of Trade, and this is when he said that it was the Queen's wish.

[00:19:49]And they've had to set out at the beginning of this document to say, "We normally abide by the you know the protocol that we don't talk about advice given to the monarch or the expression of the monarch's wishes, but we've made an exception in this case because of the the very high-profile nature of it." One of the files also includes an interview that that then Prince Andrew gave at the time about this, and he says that it was by mutual agreement with the palace that he would be well placed to take on this role, and he accepted it with no hesitation, but acknowledged that he would require a full period of induction. And when he took on the role, he started in the autumn of the of 2001, but I think he was being inducted into the role from about April when the Duke of Kent stepped down. And no payment as well. Maybe this is going back to where we were talking about earlier about did he hold public office? It does confirm in there from the Foreign Office, "We will, of course, make no payment, but he can claim expenses that the government will pay." So, flights, hotels, and and all of that.

[00:20:49]>> So, these these papers came like the day before we found out we had an update on the investigation.

[00:20:59]Did one follow the other on purpose, or is it completely unconnected?

[00:21:04]I don't I haven't seen any evidence of the connection. One is about his appointment as a trade envoy or way back in 2000 and the discussions that were started then in government at the time.

[00:21:15]And another update is about a very live police investigation that they've come one day after one another.

[00:21:22]I mean, I find it hard to to find the link, but it certainly bad news for the royal family when they've been trying all this time to get off the Andrew story and making, you know, what we said in the previous podcast were widely highly regarded speeches to Congress and how everyone now wants a piece of the king.

[00:21:40]We've even had the Irish president this week offering the king an invitation.

[00:21:44]Come and visit Ireland, which I mean, we've been to to the Irish Republic with the with the then Prince of Wales, not the king. But everyone sounds like everyone wants a piece of him at the moment after that successful visit. And before you know it, bang, Andrew's back in the news.

[00:21:58]>> In comes his brother. I mean, you you have a lot of people that you who sort of look at this story and go to these papers and look at the update that we've had today.

[00:22:08]And they will think, but there's absolutely no way in the world that we could see an old set again.

[00:22:16]That Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor has strenuously denied any allegations that be made against him.

[00:22:22]There'll be those people that sit there and think, yeah, but there's absolutely no way that we could have a member of the royal family in this lifetime ever be treated the same way that everybody else is in terms of the law, but that's simply not true, is it?

[00:22:37]It's not true in terms of in terms of the law. Yeah. No, and I think that's, you know, that's what the police are showing. It's what the king meant in that statement when he said that the law must take its course and that he him and the royal household are going to allow step back and allow that to happen.

[00:22:53]>> Because misconduct, we look at misconduct, misconduct in public office can lead to life imprisonment.

[00:22:58]>> Yes, that's the maximum sentence.

[00:22:59]>> that's the maximum.

[00:23:01]>> Yes.

[00:23:01]And so >> Very, very serious.

[00:23:03]>> It's incredibly serious.

[00:23:05]>> Yeah. Potential crime. Yes. And so do we know what happens from from here because it's a long-running thing?

[00:23:11]>> I think not a lot and not very quickly.

[00:23:13]I mean I think sorry, a lot will happen but not very quickly. We won't find out very much about it. So that the police are saying we're working and working and working at this and it's really complicated and there's all these different strands and so many things to to look into. They say witnesses have come forward is our understanding.

[00:23:28]>> Plural.

[00:23:29]Yes. Witnesses have come forward. We don't know whether they were new witnesses following the arrest or the whether they were already speaking to those witnesses previously.

[00:23:37]Um but there's lots of work still to do and we have been warned that don't expect any any quick updates. You're not going to get anything like next week for example.

[00:23:46]>> are calling for more witnesses to come forward.

[00:23:49]Yes.

[00:23:50]>> Yes. If there are any.

[00:23:51]>> Yeah. As police always do in any investigation because yeah, the more people that come forward and the more publicity some cases get. We've known from cases in the past that you know, when it gets publicity, some people do come forward as a result of that publicity. So who knows what's happening in this case. Guys, thanks very much for that and thank you so much for for joining us. We're back next week and don't forget to subscribe and hit the notifications bell so you never miss an episode. But for now, from three of us, bye-bye.