How many is ENOUGH || JOVAN DEBATES

追加: 2026-05-31

[00:00:09]Coming up next is George. George is calling from New York about the Iran war. George, if you can hear me, please provide me with your age and pronouns.

[00:00:18]>> Uh, I'm 18 and he >> Great.

[00:00:24]>> Yeah, I can. All right. George calling about the Iran war. Uh just to give uh a little a little preamble, George, I believe the Iran war is unjustified because the stated reason for the war is that Iran was a nuclear threat. However, Iran was not building nuclear weapons and had not reinstated its nuclear weapons program. Do you disagree? And if so, why?

[00:00:48]>> Uh I don't disagree with the reasoning.

[00:00:52]I don't >> unmuffle your mic, George.

[00:00:54]Oh, I don't disagree with the I disagree with the reasoning. I don't think it's justified. The reason they're giving the nuclear reasoning is justified. I think the actual reason is uh maintaining the America's hedgeimonyy.

[00:01:13]>> You think it's the war is justified to maintain America's hedgeimony?

[00:01:21]>> Did you say yes?

[00:01:23]>> Yeah. Okay. So, it's justified to kill civilians if America maintains power is what you're saying.

[00:01:31]>> We're actively trying to kill civilian civilians. Things like this happen in war. Not >> Did we Did we purposely bomb civilian infrastructure?

[00:01:43]>> We're We're not actively bomb. You bomb.

[00:01:45]That was old data though. It was 10 years behind.

[00:01:47]>> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:01:50]>> I'm not just talking about the school.

[00:01:52]Have we purposely bombed civilian infrastructure since the start of the war in Iran?

[00:01:59]>> Threaten to >> what?

[00:02:04]>> Threaten.

[00:02:05]>> We can't.

[00:02:06]>> No, not threatened to. We have purposely bombed civilian infrastructure.

[00:02:14]>> Clear.

[00:02:16]>> So we have bombed at least there have been at least 40 cases. Uh that's this has been determined by the ACLED where the US and Israel has strike civilian structures. Um the reason that we've give um uh is because there or the reason that we that they have been bombed is because they've been dual civilian military structures. So they're structures that are used both by the military and by civilians. We've also been bombing oil and energy infrastructure.

[00:02:46]So there's been a strike on oil refineries. um oil refiner or oil refineries or civilian infrastructure.

[00:02:53]Uh we've also struck civilian uh areas um including coastal cities in Iran. Um so like this idea that we have not attacked civilian infrastructure is just incorrect.

[00:03:08]>> But does that not speak to the depravity of the RGC?

[00:03:13]How would that speak to their depravity >> to put military dual infrastructure in such in >> We have dual military and civilian infrastructure. Are we depraved?

[00:03:26]>> Have you ever been to West Point?

[00:03:28]>> There's literally elementary schools there. Most of our military bases have civilian infrastructures in them.

[00:03:35]>> I think you don't know what you're talking about.

[00:03:36]>> I don't know what you're doing.

[00:03:38]>> I think you don't know what you're talking about.

[00:03:41]I think I do.

[00:03:43]>> You just said that they're depraved because they have dual civilian and military infrastructure.

[00:03:50]Yet we have dual civilian and military infrastructure. So are we depraved?

[00:04:00]>> You know, I think I was referring to the school. I think >> the school was not in a military infrastructure. The school was like >> things happen in war. People die. Oh, I don't know why we're I don't know why we're I don't know why we're pivoting away from that. I wasn't talking about the school, >> so I don't know why we're back to the school.

[00:04:16]>> I said I I think I was I was just focusing on the school, but >> I don't know why when I gave you examples that weren't just schools, so why are we just talking about the school?

[00:04:28]>> They know what they're doing. They're putting They know they're actively at war and they're still doing these things. I don't think the >> what? We have schools in military bases.

[00:04:40]It's most countries have schools in their military bases. What are you talking about?

[00:04:47]>> But they're actively at war.

[00:04:51]>> Okay.

[00:04:52]>> And they're using those bases.

[00:04:54]>> Iran was not actively at war with us until we struck those bases.

[00:05:00]They've been on low they've been having low scale engagements with Israel for like the past couple like couple months to a year.

[00:05:09]>> Israel didn't bomb the school. We did.

[00:05:12]>> Israel was >> Do you know why we do you know why we bombed the school?

[00:05:17]>> Because it had a RGC complex right next to it.

[00:05:21]>> Nope.

[00:05:22]>> Why did we bomb the school? So, the stated reason from the US State Department is that the school we had, we were using 14-year-old intel. The building the school was in used to be >> a compound 14 years ago, and we did not update our info when we struck it. We struck a 14-year-old target that has not been a military installation for 14 years. Do you think that's that that's justified that we struck a base without having updated our intel?

[00:05:57]>> But damn, things happen. I mean, >> things happen. Would this have happened if we updated our info?

[00:06:05]>> Uh I can't I can't believe that they they didn't try their best. I think we >> would this have happened if we updated our intel?

[00:06:14]>> No, but I can't. So, how is that justified?

[00:06:21]because to keep our empire afloat. I'm not talking about specific instances of it's that and the third. I'm talking about like >> but you are you're saying that it's justified that all this stuff is happening because it keeps the US empire afloat.

[00:06:33]>> Even though the only reason any of this is happening is because the US intervened in Iran back in the 50s.

[00:06:41]>> Yeah, that thing that does happen.

[00:06:43]America intervening is what has got us to a lot of these places. But I'm saying in order the the big threat right now isn't Iran. I don't think Iran is is ever going to build a nuclear weapon.

[00:06:54]>> Okay. It doesn't Iran is ever going to build a nuclear weapon. That doesn't make sense for their survival. It makes sense to threaten >> then the war is not justified. Friend, >> I I'm I'm thinking of the grander geopolitical implications with China.

[00:07:10]What is What attacking Iran does?

[00:07:12]>> Why are we worried about China? Can you point me to a time in the last 10 years where China has either economically or or physically attacked the US in the last 10 years?

[00:07:24]>> They had a Uh they had a police station in New York like a Chinese police station that actively went >> Yes. Yes. Yes. No. They had a Chinese police station in New York. I remember this. It was so bad. like they were going they were in Chinatown actively like going after dissident. It was it was so weird and they were doing that and I think they're the ones that are killing all these signs.

[00:07:52]>> So we're just we're just making [ __ ] up now.

[00:07:54]>> What they were to I live in New York.

[00:07:58]This was like crazy, bro.

[00:08:01]>> What? When this happened, when they had uh the the the police station that was like a front like a front for a Chinese store and they were going after like dissident was like hello.

[00:08:23]I feel like we've just lost the plot at this point.

[00:08:27]What?

[00:08:30]You don't I don't know what to tell you, man. I That That was like big news back in the day. That was like >> That was a thing.

[00:08:41]But I think we need to keep doing this to maintain that. Yeah.

[00:08:45]>> Yes. You think that the US should be an imperialist nation and we should kill whoever we need to in order to maintain imperial power?

[00:08:53]>> Yes. We've been subsiding off of this for the last how many years?

[00:08:58]>> Yes. The you're you believe it's justified because the US should be able to kill whoever they want >> in order for us to maintain power.

[00:09:05]>> That's how the worldity of their how the worldity >> this isn't this isn't a pe this isn't a me and you situation like where people have feelings. This is a nation like >> do you hear yourself? There are greed of goods. Um, am I a tweak? Am I Am I not >> How many people How many people is it okay for the for America to kill before we finally be like, "Oh, yeah. This is wrong." How many? What What should the number be?

[00:09:39]>> I don't think it's ever going to stop.

[00:09:41]>> 16,000 civilian 16,00 1600 civilians have died so far in Iran. Is that enough or do we need to keep going?

[00:09:48]>> I don't think it's ever going to stop in all honesty. I didn't ask you if you think it's going to stop. I asked you how many deaths do you think is enough before you go? This is not justified >> not of civilian civilians but of the regime. Everybody >> again that's not the question I asked you.

[00:10:15]>> That's not the question I asked you.

[00:10:17]>> So I'm going to just re ask the question I did ask you and maybe you'll answer it. How many civilian deaths?

[00:10:25]How many Okay.

[00:10:27]civilian deaths is America going to be responsible for globally before you finally say enough is enough. It's no longer justified to maintain American hedgeimonyy >> when when we're not in as much debt anymore.

[00:10:47]>> Yeah.

[00:10:47]>> That's not the question I asked you.

[00:10:50]You said however many >> how many civilian casualties will finally become enough for you to go America specifically is finally doing too much and is no longer justified in trying to maintain global power. How many time how many innocent people should we as a country kill before you finally go never mind we did the wrong thing?

[00:11:23]>> That's kind of a loaded question. Like how many >> literally not a loaded question at all.

[00:11:29]>> Like how many innocent people I'm not for the killing of civilians but if it happens as a consequence of military action and it is what it is. I am asking you, you have told me that these deaths are justified because America needs to maintain global hedgeimonyy and America needs to maintain power. So I'm trying to find out your parameters here to know how many of these deaths are justified.

[00:12:02]Let's say a million. Let's say America as an entity kills a million innocent people worldwide. Are we still justified in maintaining power through military intervention?

[00:12:15]>> Sure.

[00:12:16]>> 2 million.

[00:12:24]>> No, no, no, no, no, no, >> no. 2 million would be too many. If America, if America globally kills 2 million people, >> innocent people, and these are deaths directly tied to US intervention, You're acting as if we're actively like going looking for these innocent people and like shooting them. That's not what is happening.

[00:12:46]>> I'm not saying that's what's happening.

[00:12:48]I'm saying these are innocent civilian deaths directly tied to US military intervention. If America globally kills two million innocent people directly tied to American US military intervention, do you think that at that point we should end this and be like, "Okay, no, we need to stop or do you think America's global power is still more important?

[00:13:24]making people kind of bad. Economic is more important because more important than two million people. Is it more important than three million?

[00:13:34]>> If we're good and >> is it more important than three million people's lives?

[00:13:42]>> Sure.

[00:13:44]>> Is it more important than four million people's lives?

[00:13:47]>> Okay. No. No. No. No. No. How when is the is it going to be enough? I mean, >> so you're saying it's not more important than four million people's lives.

[00:13:57]4 million is your cut off.

[00:14:00]If America has caused directly 4 million civilian deaths through military intervention, then you would say that's too many people. America's global position of power is not worth that many deaths.

[00:14:17]>> I guess I know.

[00:14:19]>> Okay, great. America has killed closer to 12 million globally throughout its history. We can look at specific numbers if you want.

[00:14:31]>> But America as a global power, >> if you want to just look at innocent civilians that America specifically has killed during interventions, we're looking at closer to 10 million people.

[00:14:46]We can just look at some direct numbers.

[00:14:49]We can look at the 200,000 deaths done by the Japanese bombings. That's 200,000 people. We can go to Vietnam. There were 365,000 civilians killed because we dropped bombs, including white phosphorus, which is a war crime to drop on people. We can go to North Korea. In the Korean War, we killed 2 to three million civilians. You know what we said about the Korean War when we were dropping 635,000 tons of explosives on Korea? We specifically called to wipe out all life in tactical locality. That was the direct quote that America used about bombing. We wanted to wipe out all life.

[00:15:29]We did not want even civilians to survive. That's why we again dropped 635,000 tons of explosives and 32,000 tons of napal.

[00:15:40]>> Wars are not fought by dropping 600,000 tons of explosives on civilians. That's not how wars are fought.

[00:15:48]>> That's That's not how wars are fought.

[00:15:50]Especially when we lost the war.

[00:15:53]>> We can look at how many people we've killed in Iraq since the Iraq war had started. It's been a million people, civilians. What about the secret prisons we ran? Abu Grae was a secret prison the United States ran. We ran a secret prison in Iraq in which we tortured people. And a report came out later that proved that 90% of the people in that prison that we tortured, that we murdered, that we sexually assaulted, were innocent.

[00:16:21]We did all of that. So when we want to sit here and say it's justified for America to maintain power, no, it isn't.

[00:16:28]>> We kill civilians >> precisionally, which is why I don't believe [ __ ] when the administration says it was a mistake we killed those school children. No, it [ __ ] wasn't.

[00:16:39]talking to me. Wait, am I muted?

[00:16:41]>> I'm talking to I'm talking. So, you're muted. You're You're not going to I'm going to keep speaking until my sentence is done.

[00:16:51]>> No, I'm done. Now, let's see how you defend all what you just said. If you could also take the mic out of your out of your face, it would be great because we can barely hear you.

[00:16:59]>> I think I'm speaker. I don't think all that is okay, but I'm saying that those that's how wars are fought. And what about the other guys? Like they're not fighting they're not fighting a nice a nice a clean fight. They're doing >> What about the other guys >> that aren't that aren't >> and even do you know why the North Do you know why the North Korea war was fought? Do you know why the war in Korea was even fought >> uh proxies between there were proxies?

[00:17:28]the the war in Korea was fought because America didn't like that Korea's when they ran a democratic election, right? A democratic election that Korea voted in the Communist Party. So America went to South Korea and said, "Well, we're going to back a new election done in South Korea where you're not going to give everyone the right to vote." And then the people in Korea were like, "Well, we don't like this. We don't like that you're trying to engage in this." And North Korea, who predominantly voted in the Communist Party, was like, "We really don't like this." And then a war broke out because America doesn't want quote unquote communists to take over.

[00:18:01]Same reason we went to Vietnam. Same reason we [ __ ] with Cuba. Same reason we [ __ ] with Iran.

[00:18:09]>> Korea as your example.

[00:18:11]>> Yeah. If you don't know about the Korean War, then like trying to like rage trying to like emotional appeal Korea.

[00:18:17]>> So look at where they at now. What?

[00:18:22]>> If anything, I'm pretty sure a majority of people there are pretty happy about the US intervention.

[00:18:29]>> So, okay. So, because the majority of people there are happy because they weren't one of the two to three million people that were killed, that means it was it was justified. Do you hear yourself?

[00:18:40]>> Oh, this is like a >> Do you actively hear yourself when you kill all of the people that oppose you? Yes. the happy ones are going to be who's left over cuz you've killed all the people. You know, Germany, Germans were mostly happy during uh during the Holocaust. So, I guess the Holocaust was was justified cuz Germans were mostly happy during it.

[00:19:03]>> Or is it that they killed everybody that disagreed with them?

[00:19:05]>> You're not going to be happy. Of course.

[00:19:09]>> Or do you hear yourself?

[00:19:11]>> You have to you I'm sure you I you have to hear yourself right now.

[00:19:15]You know, there wasn't a North and South Korea prior to the Korean War, right?

[00:19:20]>> Like, it wasn't a split country. The war is what led to them splitting up.

[00:19:25]>> I feel like you're not like you're not saying anything if I've been you're a proiteeer of America's empire. We're all profiting.

[00:19:35]So, do you want the empire to collapse or do you What do you want?

[00:19:40]>> Do I want Yeah, I don't think America's empire should exist. Correct.

[00:19:45]I don't think America should be imperialist and swing its dick around and make decisions about what happens in the rest of the world through CIA operations. I don't think the Contras I don't think Operation Contra should should have happened. I don't think Cuba should be currently under sanctions and embargos because America doesn't like that Cuba got to decide its own fate. I don't think America should be operating secret prisons in the Middle East. I don't think we should keep open [ __ ] Guantanamo Bay for five people.

[00:20:14]>> Diplomacy, bro. It's a bigger state diplomacy.

[00:20:16]>> That's not diplomacy. Using the CIA to run secret operations is not diplomacy.

[00:20:25]It's imperialism.

[00:20:29]And I mean I guess it is.

[00:20:34]>> Yes, it is.

[00:20:36]>> It's not an I guess.

[00:20:38]>> Diplomacy is when you work with the country, not when you sneak into the country >> and do [ __ ] up [ __ ] like run a coup where you take out somebody who was democratically elected to place in dictators. Batista, the shot, Chile. How many how many dictators does the US have to put into power before we go, hey, maybe it's not okay the US is doing this?

[00:21:04]>> I mean, there there you know what? I don't think there's a line for me in all honesty. I don't think I'm >> Of course you don't think there's a line.

[00:21:14]>> Like, if Obama was doing this, I would have been behind.

[00:21:16]>> Obama was doing it. Obama was doing it.

[00:21:18]We don't [ __ ] with him either.

[00:21:21]>> What? Oh no. Yo, I'm off this.

[00:21:27]>> [ __ ] thank Christ.

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