Trust Risk Vulnerability — Consent as Choreography | Daniel Kok Luke George| BAC Queer East Festival

Added: 2026-06-02

[00:00:00][music] [music] [music] >> Hi everyone. Welcome back to Premier Talk. Today, I'm joined by two artists whose work has traveled across cities, communities, and audiences.

[00:00:27]Daniel Kok and Luke George, the creators of Bunny, coming to the Battersea Arts Centre 4th to 6th June.

[00:00:34]If you've ever wondered what it feels like to be inside a performance built on trust, tension, and shared attention, this is the conversation for you.

[00:00:45]We'll talk about how Bunny first came about, what actually happens between performers and audiences inside the space, and how Daniel and Luke keep a creative partnership alive between Singapore and Melbourne.

[00:00:59]We'll also touch on the support structures around this kind of niche experimental practice.

[00:01:05]And of course, we'll end with a little fun, the not-so-serious round, a spontaneous moment about [music] their partnership. So, let's get started.

[00:01:16]Hello, Daniel and Luke. Thank you for joining us today at Premier Talk, and a very, very warm welcome to London.

[00:01:24]And you're looking forward to the performance in June at Battersea Arts Centre. It's Bunny.

[00:01:32]And we'll talk a lot about it, your process, and you know, the idea behind it as to how you came about with the show.

[00:01:42]Um, so if you can tell us a little bit about how Bunny first came about, and what was the moment or impulse that started it all?

[00:01:50]Over to you.

[00:01:53]>> Yeah, um, well, we uh, I'm based in on in Melbourne, now in Australia. Um, and uh, Daniel Singapore and and Singapore and Berlin. Um, when we met, this is 12 years ago now, um, I was living in New York, in Brooklyn.

[00:02:08]Daniel was living in Brussels. Brussels.

[00:02:11]>> Yeah.

[00:02:12]>> Um, and we were moving about a lot. Um, and we'd never met before.

[00:02:17]Um, we were introduced to each other by a curator and um, su- suggested that maybe there's an intersection between our work because uh, at that time as solo artists, um, we were very individually quite interested in um, the audience. So, what does it mean to watch? Um, and how do people gather? Um, and uh, how do people uh, of different perspectives and experiences share a space together and how they're watching work and what are they thinking about? Um, and you could say to this day we're actually still very much interested in in this in this line of thought.

[00:02:52]Um, and uh, we shared a lot. We We got to know each other's work. We performed alongs- uh, our works alongside each other. Um, and tried to find the um, the connections um, and if there were some. And we talked a lot about our personal lives, um, um, a lot about uh, our sexuality around um, being gay men, um, about um, uh, my work as a sex worker as well parallel to uh, being an artist. And Daniel was um, very interested in um, the figure of the pole dancer at the time and was was a trained pole dancer.

[00:03:27]And so um, uh, the the work of a stripper.

[00:03:31]Um, and really analyzing that from an artistic perspective and and what does an audience have to do with this? So, um, somehow in there in that Venn diagram, we um, we realized that we were both very interested in in um, learning shibari. Um, and neither of us had um learned it before. I think we'd experienced a little bit, but we hadn't learned it. Um and learning it both for a personal reason, an artistic reason, um and just for some fun. So, we we uh we took we took uh an initial workshop. And in those very first few days, those first moments, we both were like, "Oh, there's something here, you know? It this seems to sex with our artistic uh interests very much." Um yeah, and how uh how we could further explore what does it mean to do, to receive, and to watch.

[00:04:30]Yeah.

[00:04:31]>> Yeah, I I I remember at that time I was uh very much uh involved in a the idea of artistic research and what it might mean to be a artistic researcher as well as a performer.

[00:04:45]So, um and I remember being very insistent that we asked ourselves what it means to work together. Because uh if I were uh a pole dancer, a pole dancer performs by themselves. They don't need another person with them. So, what is it about uh the this working relationship that is necessary? So, that was actually a I remember a starting point for me. So, shibari made sense because first of all, um of its relationship with uh um the erotic lives of of of people, but also it it it's almost like a practice that makes visible the connection between two people uh through a physical material.

[00:05:33]So, then, you know, very quickly realizing that ropes um is a fascinating material that corresponds with the language of how we talk about human relationships.

[00:05:45]You know, social connections, uh uh familial bonds, dramatic tension, giving somebody some slack, and and so many ways to unravel human relationships, really.

[00:06:01]It's just so boring.

[00:06:02]>> [laughter] >> I can go on.

[00:06:05]>> Yeah, so what I understand is it's kind of shibari that brought in the rope into the picture. Am I right in understanding that?

[00:06:13]>> Yeah, but also realizing very quickly that it wasn't just shibari, but that maybe there were other other ways to play with ropes, including macrame. So, I remember very quickly we were also learning some macrame and thinking about how to combine them together. We were thinking about how to work in a way that is as visual as it is tactile, >> [clears throat] >> as as much about looking at as it is about performing. Sure.

[00:06:46]So, this that that made that then it made sense for us to investigate macrame along with shibari as well.

[00:06:53]And then added to that this kind of question about um what it might mean to queer shibari because the way we encountered it in the beginning was that it was very much often about a a bigger sized man tying a a petite woman, right? And if we aren't of that of that stereotype, what can we bring into or out of this practice if we were to think about a queer way to learn and practice rope bondage?

[00:07:25]>> This is so interesting. I mean, these are there are so many art forms and if we can really think about packaging them and bringing them to an audience in a form that you have done through Bunny.

[00:07:38]I mean, that is where I think the interesting point lies because there will be participants, I mean, sorry, audience members who will be experiencing such a performance for the first time. So, it's really interesting to see what they come back with after they have seen the show. It would be an interesting element to really interview some of the audience members to see what their take is after they have experienced it, but we we'll come to that a bit later on. From what you said, Daniel, it's interesting to know how did you navigate the intersection between your research work, performance, and, you know, really interacting with all these other forms that you have just spoken about about.

[00:08:20]And also, you know, it's working between two continents, like somebody is in Melbourne and you are in sometimes in Berlin, sometimes in Singapore. So, there are I think there's a variety of elements that have come together to really bring this show together. So, if you can just tell us about, firstly, how you navigate the intersection between your research work and your performance, and then we'll come to the next bit, which is how do you navigate working between continents?

[00:08:50]>> Yeah. I think the Yeah, these are quite definitely questions that we think about very often.

[00:08:57]I For me, I would just I would say that the the way [snorts] artistic research and performance in a much more sensitive, personal way dovetail at the point of thinking about the social dimension of of of art. I was initially a visual artist, but I actually was very quickly more interested in the performing arts, because simply put, I feel like the performing arts are more about people and not about objects.

[00:09:32]>> Yeah.

[00:09:33]>> And what it might mean to to deal with and design experiences that are about people coming together. That made the job of a choreographer very personally as well as intellectually very stimulating for me.

[00:09:47]Yeah, and I feel that now, given what's happening in the world, it feels like all the more it is imperative for the arts to to focus on what it might mean to bring different people together, not just not just bringing people together in a kind of a community sense, but but in the sense of what happens when we really don't agree or we have very different expectations, very different desires. How do we sit with each other in the same room and we may or may not arrive at the same conclusion together, but but it is it is the job of the arts to to deal with this right now.

[00:10:31]>> Absolutely, and I think that is where the concept of bringing the audience members as part of the choreography in your performance comes about.

[00:10:40]So, how how who are the audiences in your performance and if you just tell us how do they become part of the choreography? Something that is not rehearsed, very spontaneous, and they just experience it at the moment. So, if you just tell us a little bit about that.

[00:10:56]>> Yeah, it's become even more like what Daniel was just talking about.

[00:11:04]It's become even more important to us in recent years, particularly post pandemic, I would say.

[00:11:10]Um that we we don't just assume um who is going to be in the room.

[00:11:19]Um that we have um we approach it with a with uh a lot of intent and a lot of curiosity, and we want to in we want that invitation to um feel like it's there for um not just outgoing audiences, not only queer people, not only kink people, but um quite a broad spectrum of people.

[00:11:42]Um and sometimes it's worked. Like sometimes we've performed um the work in a context where the festival, the theater, or the programmer is able to reach um a pretty pretty interesting, diverse um audience. Um And so I uh a lot of what we do in the in the work is to take our time to really notice who's in the room and to observe people. Um and I I personally I I love um I love the act of observation. Like how can people spend time with each other and notice, pick up on little things, and notice things about each other. And you know, we make stories about who we think someone is, but until you actually encounter somebody, until you until you actually approach them and look at the at each other and and ask a question of each other, you don't know anything. And so um uh it's quite challenging this work for us as artists because we are essentially inviting strangers or people we haven't met yet. Um and haven't met each other yet potentially um to uh accept an invitation to step into this work in some way and to um either to boil to either tie or or untie us or to be tied or untied by us or other audience members. And uh and all all witnessed um this negotiation is is live and witnessed um in the performance itself by the other audience members. So everybody's watching each other the whole time. And this is the work. Um there is no >> the world of Bonnie. If you take us to the space >> Yeah.

[00:13:30]>> the performers and the audiences, that is what actually goes on.

[00:13:34]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:35]>> That's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:37]>> And we we we try not to see ourselves in in going back to the queering of this, we asked ourselves um, what if it would be very easy for us to have made a performance where one of us is the bunny and one of us is the rigger. And just just to fill you in, you know, bunny is a is a potential nickname, one of many nicknames that can be given to the person who is tied up in rope bondage. And rigger Yeah, just just to let you know, that's what we're talking about when we mean bunny.

[00:14:07]And it's one of many, you know, not everyone uses that.

[00:14:11]But we thought it was very cute, so we we decided to use that that word. Um, and rigger is the r i g g e r, is the is the person who does the tying.

[00:14:22]Um, and so yeah, it would be it would have been very easy for us to to Yeah.

[00:14:27]>> do you shift the roles like one plays the bunny and one the rigger and then you change switch?

[00:14:33]>> I think you have to come to the show to find out that >> Yeah, exactly. I want to find [laughter] out the surprise.

[00:14:38]But I'm really excited and I really want to know what goes on in that space. So when you say so it's a very spontaneous thing. You're tying each other, the audience members are also tying each other. So everybody gets a chance to do something. They're doing No?

[00:14:54]>> Not necessarily. Yeah, it's it's tying takes time and takes uh concentration and it takes um a very considered dynamic between people that have decided yes I want you to I I want to be tied by you. Um, or no, I don't Or no, I don't want to be or let's let's let's Yeah.

[00:15:21]>> Wow, that >> is something I think that's very interesting. And sorry, I just have so many questions in mind.

[00:15:29]>> That's [laughter] all right.

[00:15:30]>> It's very new and really interesting.

[00:15:32]So, how many audience members can you handle at the same time? Like, you know, for one show?

[00:15:38]>> Mhm.

[00:15:38]>> How many audience members could be present in the house?

[00:15:41]>> Yeah, I mean, literally, um it will be just several. But, for us, it's we don't we tend not to we try not to see things like that because um we when we in a in a in our synopsis for the show, we asked the question, what if everyone in the theater is a bunny?

[00:16:02]So, we are basically trying to ask the question of what what how do we think of everyone here being tied up together in some ways? How what what if all of us, ourselves included, have had to play this role of being submissive?

[00:16:23]Of surrendering ourselves in order for the performance to go somewhere, in order for all of us to be able to get somewhere together by the end of it. So, it it is really a question of like, even if you're not literally physically being tied up or in in some ways you're already bound to each other. And I find that psychological aspect so much more interesting. Um so, in the in the process of making this work, we've also found moments where it was like a steep learning curve, you know, like what when when when one person ties another, it is a very intimate and private experience. What why why is a third person watching? Why why is a room full of people watching this? So, we are very interested in these ideas of expectations, of projection onto one another. In the case of a the our show Bunny, we also bear in mind that the people the group of people watching are also watching one another.

[00:17:27]As they look across the room and they watch somebody being tied up or somebody smiling really excitedly, whereas someone might be more circumspect and and skeptical. Like all of that landscape of of differences and how it's part of the negotiation.

[00:17:44]And uh and therefore is very exciting for to be to for for all of that to be made visible in in the show.

[00:17:52]>> Absolutely. And I would also imagine that um people who choose to come and watch the show or really participate as audience members in this, they would have read, you know, the description of the show and that is how they choose whether they want to come or not.

[00:18:06]But I wonder if there are people who want to really come, watch, and understand and really get rid of any inhibitions that they might have about, you know, acts of touch, boundaries, and things like that. So, that is also an interesting aspect that do audience members come in with inhibitions and are they able to shed that before they leave?

[00:18:30]So, I think Did you do Do you think about that sort of an angle as well sometimes?

[00:18:37]>> Um I would say I think it's important to say that um it this is um uh it's not a workshop um and uh it's it's um not everyone will be is going to get a turn or, you know, can put up their hand and wait for their turn sort of thing. Um you know, some some people will be tied um if they want to be. And um there are we know from experience that for some of those people some really big things have happened um in the performance and through the performance and it's been quite moving to um witness that and to for them to feel so safe and that they can be vulnerable.

[00:19:20]That that vulnerability can be seen by this audience of people.

[00:19:26]And in that what we've heard again and again is uh that maybe when think people think about bondage BDSM, kink, rope, these kinds of dynamics, maybe other things in popular culture or something in their past experience or something that someone has told them a certain kind of a trigger of um of uh intensity or even violence you know comes comes to mind and and and they feel it in their body and and and hold it in their body so what we've heard over and over again is people really notice uh the level of communication and care and responsibility that we as artists are taking within this but also then how that then moves into the audience as well too and these are not necessarily things that you would initially think about when you think about bondage. I think if you've never encountered it before. Yeah.

[00:20:24]>> Absolutely.

[00:20:25]>> But I think nevertheless your question is a good one, right? It's what you say inhibition and whether or not they shed those inhibitions by the end of it. Um I I do I do think that I like the idea that almost all performances are are about how we acquiesce you know in during the performance. When you watch something whether it's a movie or a or a show maybe the for the first 10 minutes you are quite open and and then at some point maybe you are not so sure at some point maybe you start to think oh actually I don't think that's very interesting or this is a this is very cool. Like at some point you make a decision about how you feel about what it is.

[00:21:10]>> Exactly. It's a matter of perceptions because different people have different perspectives and ways of accepting or looking at things. I think that if you add that element to it, that makes it even more interesting as to how many different kinds of thoughts, perspectives, and elements you're playing with. It just keeps adding layers to it. That's really interesting and I think when you say um from your point of view as performers, I think you also have to come with a lot of intuitiveness.

[00:21:41]Um you know, just to understand as to where exactly you're going, understanding your audience, and that sort of stuff. I mean, am I right in saying you know, saying that?

[00:21:51]>> Yeah. And I really do um reference to back to what is uh how I introduced it at the start. Um Uh I didn't make these connections and more into recently, but uh I really feel like my experience as a as a gay man and also as a sex worker, a touch base sex worker, um like and um my his my my queer history as well. Um It and my and now my kink history um informs this so much where, you know, as a being trained as a as a performer and as a dancer, you're not necessarily trained to you're trained to be intuitive with the people that you're dancing with, >> Mhm.

[00:22:34]>> necessarily with the person watching you. Um and so to I think all of this um has personally informed me about about intuition and how people um uh move towards or away from each other and and protect themselves or or open up to each other and and how to sort of um observe somebody and read somebody and uh uh I I have to remind myself to lean back into those um things that I've learned. Yeah.

[00:23:05]>> Of course. Yeah.

[00:23:07]Oh, that's really interesting. And um also I wanted to know um what about safety and vulnerability? Is there anything around that that you have to navigate through this show while presenting?

[00:23:22]>> Very much so. In fact, I think we are we realized very quickly while making a work that we are being scrutinized um how we handle questions about consent and safety. Um and that that's why I mentioned acquiescence. So, if somebody is watching us and they are I I mean and and they are wondering like how do we approach someone? Um do we really get uh permission? Um uh how are we touching people? After we tied someone up, do we just leave them alone? What if they're not comfortable at some point and or they change their mind? So, I think that uh these are on the thoughts of uh in the thoughts of many people as they're watching and it is it and we do feel a strong sense of responsibility to at least demonstrate the awareness the self-awareness of um how we're navigating um the the generosity of people's trust. So, uh and and that that has been the part that is like really the the the the cherry on top of the cake. Like how do we bring this performance to that point where everyone is aware of this level of not just um uh care and safety as our responsibility, but as a collective one.

[00:24:42]>> Mhm.

[00:24:43]>> Absolutely.

[00:24:43]>> So, and and and how do how are people also attending to each other? Um there there is definitely that layer and finally there is the layer of um by witnessing and and gazing. Um it is actually also allowing some people who are especially the ones tied up to have a public experience that is very uncommon for them. So, uh I love the moment where uh without giving more of the show away, I I love moments where you know, you can see that some people are discovering something anew for themselves.

[00:25:21]And and when the room steps into uh uh a moment of giving like supporting and encouraging this person just by watching, uh it it starts to become a a very beautiful collective experience.

[00:25:35]>> Absolutely. And if I were to ask you, this is a very niche, unique work. What is the support system like in, you know, either of your countries in terms of presenting, you know, the artist community, in terms of funding? How do you navigate, you know, that's the difficult bit for us performers. So, tell us something about that, please.

[00:25:57]>> Uh >> [laughter] >> You're looking at each other. That's the difficult one.

[00:26:01]>> I love I love how you are I think you are directing me and me.

[00:26:05]>> [laughter] >> Uh I'm from Singapore, yes. But I must say that uh unlike what most people think, I I I've been very I feel very well supported uh in Singapore.

[00:26:16]>> Fantastic.

[00:26:17]>> Uh there is censorship. There are moments where like the way things work in Singapore is that um how do we it's about preventing controversy. It's about prevent making uh avoiding getting into situations where some members of the public might be uncomfortable and then lodge a complaint. Why is this funded by the Arts Council? Uh blah blah blah, so on.

[00:26:41]But on the whole, because um of uh a general like sense of trust I've developed with the Arts Council, to be fair, I feel like I am more often than not supported uh uh and and so as we made the work to go to residencies or to to get funding to travel we have I have been we have been supported by both Singapore and Australia. It's worth quickly pointing out also that we met at a time when there was a kind of like a bilateral MOU between our countries and it without us realizing it at the time it actually made our collab artistic collaboration easy.

[00:27:30]So when we applying for grants to do things together, it was also what the the councils our arts councils were already looking for and it just made our work between Singapore and Australia actually quite easy.

[00:27:45]>> That's really good to know. The very fact that you are here presenting it and the fact that you've presented you know across the globe shows the kind of support you've been receiving. It's nice to know from you and we are running slightly out of time. So I'm just going to quickly move on to the next segment which is not so serious anymore. And we will call it the not so serious round as in k n o t not.

[00:28:10]>> [laughter] >> So very quick questions, some fun questions, no overthinking and just spontaneous answers from the two of you.

[00:28:17]So the first one is you've been trying to tie each other up artistically for over a decade. What keeps the partnership untangled?

[00:28:27]>> Is it untangled?

[00:28:29]And I would say that actually maybe not living in the same country helps.

[00:28:34]>> Distance.

[00:28:35]>> Yeah.

[00:28:35]>> The distance, the giving the take is having space and time apart so that every time we meet together I'm excited to see Luke again.

[00:28:46]There is no sense that you know, I'm always just saying the same thing with doing the same things at the same place.

[00:28:52]>> [laughter] >> So, it feels like this, uh, you know, interweaving of experiences allow us to keep growing and keep, you know, keep being curious about what else we can learn from speaking. There's a lot more stuff for us to figure out.

[00:29:07]Yeah.

[00:29:07]>> Yeah. Okay, the next one, I'll shoot that to you. In the studio, who's more likely to say, "I have a crazy idea."?

[00:29:15]And who says, "Wait, let's think this through."?

[00:29:20]>> [laughter] >> Wow.

[00:29:22]Yeah, he has the crazy idea.

[00:29:25]He has the crazy idea and I and I and I say, "Wait, let's think this through."

[00:29:29]Yeah, for sure.

[00:29:29]>> Okay, so Daniel comes with the crazy ideas and you're the one who's thinking.

[00:29:33]>> Yeah.

[00:29:34]Great question. Great question.

[00:29:37]>> [laughter] >> Next question, who's more likely to accidentally invent a new technique and who names it?

[00:29:45]>> Oh.

[00:29:47]>> Me, it could it may not be a technique, it could be a move, you know, a special knots or, you know, in your context.

[00:29:56]>> I don't have an answer for this one.

[00:29:57]>> Mm, me neither. We're we're not overthinking it. I'd I would say both.

[00:30:01]>> Both. Okay, okay, we can take that. Both is fine. And who is the bigger troublemaker in the rehearsals and who ends up fixing the trouble?

[00:30:12]>> [laughter] >> Someone is hiding.

[00:30:15]>> What are you trying to do to us here?

[00:30:17]>> [laughter] [gasps] >> Who uh And you just set up bombs quite a bit.

[00:30:24]>> I think it's uh it depends. It depends. Like, um, if it's if there's also a lot of administrative work that we do, right?

[00:30:33]So, I I would say in in general I'm I'm I'm like sidestepping now. Um, I think that we tend to like by now after 12 years very quickly recognize okay this is more your department than mine.

[00:30:49]>> Okay.

[00:30:49]>> So if it's about if it's about budgets and technical stuff usually it's done by if it's done by Luke. If it's about planning organizing things and writing text and creating documents is usually done by me. And then in the rehearsal um um there is a it it's actually more about like which part of the >> Yeah, so it's nicely compartmentalized.

[00:31:13]Let's put it that way. It's neat compartments that keeps it going.

[00:31:17]Fabulous.

[00:31:18]>> I think that we anticipate each other.

[00:31:21]We know what to anticipate with each other now.

[00:31:24]And I can feel what I'm like oh Daniel's about to he's about to throw a curly one. I can feel that he's going to bring he's going to be like no we have to try this, you know.

[00:31:34]>> Well, those things have to happen on the floor. Otherwise there's no fun.

[00:31:38]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:31:39]>> Absolutely.

[00:31:40]And my very last question to you today is what do you expect or hope your audiences to take away with them? What lingers with them after this performance after they've watched it?

[00:31:53]>> Mhm.

[00:31:55]I hope that people can see that like the performing arts you know the liveness of performing arts continues to be potentially you know powerful.

[00:32:09]And [clears throat] I you know it's in the UK the tickets are surprisingly cheap. Uh and that's not the case in say Singapore and Australia anymore.

[00:32:19]>> Right.

[00:32:20]>> And and at a time where everyone's stuck at phones watching Netflix at home it it's it's hard to build a case for why we all go to the theater. So I would say that you know yeah I would say in this case I hope Bunny builds the case for like why it's still interesting and necessary for for people together.

[00:32:43]>> Absolutely.

[00:32:45]Well, thank you so much for your time today in the run-up to Bunny on the 4th and 4th to the 6th at the Barbican Art Centre. We are all looking forward to it. Forward to it. It's been brilliant catching up with you, knowing all about the world of Bunny, and there were so many interesting aspects that we learned today about bringing so many different kind of interesting elements together for a presentation like this. Thank you so much. I could have chatted with you on and on had it not been for the time of keeping the episode short. Thank you so much, and we will see you soon at the Barbican Art Centre.

[00:33:20]>> [music] >> Bye-bye.

[00:33:21]>> Bye.