What is Consciousness? - Sam Harris and Rich Roll *Reaction - Brendan Lea Podcast

[00:00:00]Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Brendan. I am here with John.

[00:00:08]>> Dude, Elon Musk is planning >> I I can't hear you very well.

[00:00:12]>> Oh, sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

[00:00:16]Yeah, I heard Elon is planning a restaurant chain on the moon.

[00:00:23]>> Oh, yeah?

[00:00:24]>> Very Elon. Great food.

[00:00:27]No atmosphere.

[00:00:34]>> Get it?

[00:00:37]Cool.

[00:00:39]Thank you for sharing the joke. I appreciate it.

[00:00:41]>> You're You're welcome. You're welcome.

[00:00:43]>> Yeah, so I just got done filming some I'm I'm working on a project, which I'm not going to share too much about, but it involves a teleprompter.

[00:00:57]And we just shot some footage yesterday, and like it was the culmination of some footage. So, I'm excited to see how this does.

[00:01:08]Um stay tuned, and or it might be out by the time you're listening to this podcast, but um we'll see. We'll see how it goes. I don't want to say much more cuz I'm superstitious like that.

[00:01:20]Um we're going to >> [laughter] >> I'm a little superstitious, you know.

[00:01:29]>> [laughter] >> Got to make sure to wear the right socks when I when I uh >> [laughter] >> Step onto the field.

[00:01:38]>> That's right. You want to make sure it's everything's in place.

[00:01:43]But anyway, um so we have a a thing today. What we're going to try a a reaction video.

[00:01:52]And I just I wanted to keep it short, and we'll listen to a video by I believe Sam Harris talking about consciousness. What is consciousness? Sam Harris with Rich Roll. So, I'm going to broad I'm going to share my screen with you.

[00:02:13]And Yeah, okay. And then I'll share this screen with you.

[00:02:22]Okay, here we go.

[00:02:25]And Okay, so can you see?

[00:02:30]>> Yep.

[00:02:31]>> All righty.

[00:02:33]So, I'll just let's see if I can full screen. Can I Can I full screen a short?

[00:02:38]Ah, here we go.

[00:02:41]Okay.

[00:02:42]So, at least we have the biggest part.

[00:02:45]And yeah.

[00:02:50]>> Here it is.

[00:02:51]Fact that something seems to consciousness is the fact that something seems to be happening.

[00:02:58]This transition from nothing to something is a conceptually irreducible intuition we have that allows us to form any other intuitions about anything happening or not happening. It's bedrock epistemologically for us. And I think so it is with >> All right, I'm already lost. Uh let's try that again.

[00:03:17]>> [laughter] >> He used the word epistemo- uh epistemologically.

[00:03:22]>> Okay, so I'm going to start um the the intention behind these reaction videos, well, the obvious clear intention is is I've been watching this guy funnily enough Caleb Ralston recently. It's funny. I've got two Ralstons now and he's talking about branding and he's talking about branding as a pairing of things. And so, in the background one thing I'm intentionally doing is I want to pair myself with bigger names to grow my own reputation, so that that is going on and So that's background [ __ ] That's background stuff.

[00:04:00]more >> That's now foreground.

[00:04:03]>> That's now in [laughter] the foreground cuz I just told you, okay?

[00:04:06]Let's be being straight with you here.

[00:04:09]And and and watch these videos that are related to consciousness from other people and then come at it from my own background.

[00:04:20]You know, and and and break it down and make some distinctions, the purpose of which here is to get clear, like to work to clarify things. And while pairing myself with you know, others in the field because there's so much confusion as far as I can tell. You check it out. There's a lot of confusion.

[00:04:43]That that it's it's very confusing. And what I mean by that is somebody says consciousness in one place, they mean something totally different than if somebody else says consciousness, then if somebody else says consciousness, now it's it's it's the the the lack of clarity is getting out of hand and I want to work to clarify um and the idea behind the clarification is to serve people so they can be more clear.

[00:05:09]>> Um and and >> Yeah, go ahead.

[00:05:12]>> And background this guy, Sam Harris, who probably a lot of people have heard of uh even on this channel here is uh he's a neuroscientist uh and uh uh also a uh uh meditation guy, big meditation like Vipassanā kind of meditation guy.

[00:05:33]>> Okay, so we've got >> Among other things. Among other things.

[00:05:35]>> Great.

[00:05:36]>> Jujitsu guy as well.

[00:05:38]>> Excellent combination.

[00:05:41]>> Yeah, and political political uh commentator and author.

[00:05:46]>> Okay.

[00:05:46]>> And yeah.

[00:05:47]>> Okay, so we have some background.

[00:05:48]>> Well regarded.

[00:05:49]>> Yes, excellent. So he's saying about consciousness. Now, he's saying All right, let's go. Here we go. I'll I'll do my best and we'll work together.

[00:05:58]>> Consciousness is the fact that something seems to be happening.

[00:06:02]>> Okay, so right there. Consciousness is the fact that something seems to be happening. That's how he's defining consciousness.

[00:06:11]And or that's his experience of consciousness. Now, the fact >> [clears throat] >> right away.

[00:06:19]Let me read it again. Here we go.

[00:06:22]>> Consciousness is the fact that something seems to be happening.

[00:06:26]>> Okay.

[00:06:28]Consciousness is the fact that something seems to be happening. Now, if we are to be rigorous about telling the truth, is it a fact that something seems to be happening?

[00:06:41]Is that true?

[00:06:44]Something does seem to be happening.

[00:06:50]It really looks like something's happening.

[00:06:53]But he's saying that's what consciousness is.

[00:06:58]He's saying consciousness is that something seems to be happening.

[00:07:04]In the world >> that something seems to be happening.

[00:07:07]>> Right, which perhaps we could just take out fact because if if it's a fact, okay, it's true.

[00:07:14]>> Yeah.

[00:07:14]>> Like a fact that something seems to be happening. What he's talking about is anything that seems to be happening is what I would call in my world awareness or experience.

[00:07:28]This is the domain of things happening.

[00:07:32]Okay?

[00:07:33]I make a separate a different distinction. When I say consciousness, I mean what is, not what is happening necessarily. Haven't got that far yet.

[00:07:47]But like what is the source of the happening in the first place?

[00:07:52]What is before any happening or after infinite happenings? That's what I'm calling what consciousness, you know, like he'll say here uh he'll use the word bedrock, which I'm like I'm pretty I'm okay with bedrock, but then again, what does he mean when he says bedrock? I don't know.

[00:08:11]All right, so just just breaking it open to start. Anything from you, John?

[00:08:16]>> So far?

[00:08:17]>> Not yet.

[00:08:17]>> Okay, let's let's go some more.

[00:08:20]>> transition from nothing to something is a conceptually irreducible intuition we have.

[00:08:25]>> Okay, this like right away I got lost.

[00:08:30]Um this transition from nothing to something.

[00:08:38]Mhm.

[00:08:40]>> This transition from nothing to something is a conceptually irreducible intuition we have. They'll like >> A transition from nothing to something.

[00:08:49]How do you know of a transition from nothing to something?

[00:08:55]>> I think I could be way way way off here, but I think what he's referring to is um what what they call the hard problem >> Mhm.

[00:09:10]>> in in science, which is basically that there is anything at all.

[00:09:15]And that there is any experience of anything at all. That there is consciousness or awareness um of of matter. Like that matter exists. Yeah, there was a big bang, but why?

[00:09:31]>> [laughter] >> Right.

[00:09:32]>> Why was there why was there something in the first place? Like so it's sort of like sort of like a >> Excellent. So, well, I think that's what he's referring to when he says this transition from nothing to something, that there is something.

[00:09:47]And that there is an experience of something or a or a seems to be something is what he's calling consciousness. It's not just that there is a table, it's that it there's something like experiencing the table, whether as the table or as not the table, there's something like experiencing the table.

[00:10:07]And that is what he's calling consciousness. And then he's saying something about um this transition from nothing to something uh which seems I think he said like irreducible conception. I'm not sure what he means like that, but I think something like it's inescapable, like you can't get away from this problem uh so to speak.

[00:10:27]>> Uh sure, sure, sure.

[00:10:29]>> Why is it a hard problem scientifically?

[00:10:31]Because science science science deals with measurable stuff and the same measurable >> Yeah, some stuff is not measurable.

[00:10:41]Also, like uh Leonardo da Vinci had a great quote that says I all science is based on perception. It's like there's the limitation.

[00:10:48]You can't do science without perception.

[00:10:51]>> Mhm.

[00:10:52]>> But you can do consciousness without perception. I know that just sounds [ __ ] weird.

[00:10:57]Okay. Um >> [clears throat] >> that's a bold claim as Peter would say.

[00:11:01]>> haven't we Admittedly, he hasn't finished his sentence, so >> sure.

[00:11:05]>> Maybe we need to give him a little space.

[00:11:07]>> Yes, yes, [laughter] yes. This is a reaction video. Let's let's listen some more. I'll I'll bring it back. This transition from nothing to something.

[00:11:14]But that does help me um ballpark it in my brain in terms of if he's coming from a science background, it makes sense he'd be thinking in these terms.

[00:11:22]Okay.

[00:11:23]>> thing to something, it's a conceptually irreducible.

[00:11:27]Then it's a conceptually irreducible.

[00:11:29]>> Sorry, here we go.

[00:11:30]>> This transition from nothing to something is a conceptually irreducible intuition we have that allows us to form any other intuitions about anything happening or not happening. It's bedrock epistemologically for us. And I think >> All right. What does epistemologically mean? Epistemology?

[00:11:49]>> Yeah, epistemology. I think it's In some ways it's similar to ontology, but I think the difference is um I think it's >> of philosophy concerned with the study of knowledge.

[00:12:03]>> Okay.

[00:12:05]How something can be known.

[00:12:07]>> It explores foundational questions about what knowledge is, how we acquire it, the limits of what we can know, and the difference between justified belief and mere opinion.

[00:12:19]>> I was I was off then.

[00:12:21]>> Okay.

[00:12:21]>> [laughter] >> Pretty far.

[00:12:23]That was terrible.

[00:12:24]>> Okay.

[00:12:24]>> [clears throat] >> Yeah.

[00:12:25]>> On my part.

[00:12:26]>> Okay. And happening is bedrock epistemologically for us.

[00:12:31]>> So it is with consciousness. It is no less present, is no less true, is no less real even if we're confused about everything. Even if we're all psychotic, or we're all brains in a in vats, we're all in the matrix.

[00:12:43]You know, our physics is totally wrong because all of this is just a simulation on the hard drive of an alien supercomputer. We're not in touch with the base layer of reality in any way.

[00:12:53]This is a pure illusion, right? The presence of illusion is just as much a demonstration of consciousness >> Mhm.

[00:13:00]>> as the presence of any kind of veridical perception of anything. Right? So, consciousness is the one thing in this universe that can't be an illusion.

[00:13:11]>> I got no problems with that.

[00:13:14]That that that seems like a straight-up true statement. Then it begs the question, what is it?

[00:13:25]So, there you go.

[00:13:27]The if it's the if if consciousness is the one thing in the universe that can't be an illusion, and coming from my perspective and my work, you know, the and and the work that that we do, all you've got is the illusion. How do you grasp what consciousness is?

[00:13:50]I stand on that that's possible to do.

[00:13:53]And it's not done like it doing.

[00:13:57]But yeah, sound There you go. Um that his last statement seems to contradict his first one in where he says, "Consciousness is >> Consciousness is the fact that something seems to be happening."

[00:14:15]>> Okay, and then at the end, >> "One thing in this universe that can't function of anything. Right, so consciousness is the one thing in this universe that can't be an illusion."

[00:14:31]>> Yeah.

[00:14:32]Sounds good.

[00:14:34]The >> Yeah, the the Go ahead. [snorts] >> Yeah, I was going to add so, again, coming from the perspective of the work that I do, >> [snorts] >> um one of the things like he's not he's not and he's not trying it does not appear to me to be trying to facilitate people because if he were, yeah, you have to be careful again, in the world that I that I inhabit with this work, you got to be careful you're saying things like, "Oh, we're in the matrix.

[00:15:02]We're could be on an alien spaceship." Now, these things could be possible.

[00:15:08]>> But he's saying even if we are in the matrix or even if we are on an alien spaceship and we're all brains in a vat, it doesn't change the fact that consciousness is consciousness because those those it even if our entire perceptual field and experiential field is 100% in error and all an illusion there's still the fact Well there's still the the fact remains that there is a an experience there.

[00:15:41]It's so it's not the content of the experience it's not the content that's within what he's calling consciousness it's the fact that content is even allowable the content is even possible.

[00:15:54]>> Yeah cool.

[00:15:56]>> And I think that's what it where he's coming from.

[00:15:58]>> Yeah that's great. That's great.

[00:16:01]And the last his last sentence perfect.

[00:16:07]There you go.

[00:16:09]>> [clears throat] >> And then we would take it a step further to actually attempt to grasp what that is.

[00:16:16]And go for it.

[00:16:17]And hold that it is possible. So yeah in terms of the the content I wonder I don't know I wonder if we should have like a rating system or not it just occurred to me.

[00:16:31]>> You could do those things where you have like S tier S and and and A plus tier >> it on on several perhaps on several different metrics you know like cuz cuz some stuff some videos are there are they meant to be entertainment other videos are clearly meant to be educational you know he's being interviewed by a a podcaster and for me like if I were to interview him I would love for me I I think I would ask more questions probably the fact that if he's very learned he's using some words that I don't know and I would love you know my my vocabulary doesn't cover that so I would want to talk well what does that mean what does this mean and then when he says something I would want to say, "Okay, and then what's your experience of that, what you just said?

[00:17:23]And you're saying consciousness is this, can you clarify that? Like, what exactly are you talking about?

[00:17:30]You know, are you talking about a thought you're having? Are you talking about an experience you have? Are you talking about something you're conscious of? Are you talking about something you have personally grasped or is this something that you've heard about and is perhaps backed up by science? I would have many, many, many questions to to ask.

[00:17:54]Um mainly because as a facilitator I would want to get clear on what his his experience actually is.

[00:18:04]And it's very easy to take what somebody says, like you've heard me do a couple times, likely in this just this video here, see this, I have a thought about what it is, or I have a reaction about it, and it's not necessarily what he's got going on.

[00:18:25]So, um let's see, reading I don't I don't know. A curiosity >> Maybe maybe we can get to that later. I don't know what the criteria are.

[00:18:38]>> yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, we haven't we we haven't thought that that part through.

[00:18:40]>> And we haven't heard the context of this conversation or >> Correct, that's the other side of it, right.

[00:18:45]>> Right, we don't know what what the conversation actually is, what came before it, who's interviewing him and why.

[00:18:53]Are there any other things going on? So, yeah, a lot of unknowns there.

[00:18:59]Um [clears throat] I'd I personally like at the end, you know, you make a statement that conscious, you know, if if all of this is an illusion, consciousness is the real thing, whatever that is.

[00:19:13]And I think that's great because it opens up a question.

[00:19:19]Like uh maybe there is something.

[00:19:25]What What could it be?

[00:19:28]And yeah, so great. Anything else from you, John?

[00:19:33]>> Another. Let's do another one.

[00:19:35]>> Let's do another one. Okay. Let's find one more.

[00:19:38]>> All right.

[00:19:39]>> Uh >> Um one. All right, hold on.

[00:19:41]>> Yeah, it's 8:47. I have to go in 6 minutes.

[00:19:47]>> Oh, [ __ ] Well, we better get going fast. All right, here we go.

[00:19:51]>> Yeah.

[00:19:51]>> Um I'm sending this one over to you now.

[00:19:55]>> On WhatsApp?

[00:19:57]>> Yep. We haven't watched this one, so this is this is cold.

[00:20:01]>> All right.

[00:20:01]>> didn't watch the other one, either. That was also cold, but I had more familiarity with that.

[00:20:07]>> Yeah. Okay, here we go.

[00:20:10]Is it possible that consciousness is?

[00:20:11]Yes.

[00:20:13]>> [laughter] >> But but you you got to be very careful cuz we don't know is.

[00:20:19]All right, here we go.

[00:20:21]>> Is it possible that consciousness is a much more basic phenomenon in nature?

[00:20:28]There >> Okay, is it possible? Sure.

[00:20:34]Um cuz the text on the screen could consciousness be fundamental?

[00:20:38]>> is a much more basic phenomenon in nature.

[00:20:42]There was a writer for French L, his name was Jean-Dominique Bauby, and he had a condition called locked-in syndrome. But he had one point of mobility, he was able to move his left eyelid. And over time they developed this technique for him spelling out words with certain patterns of blinks.

[00:21:02]And he ended up writing a beautiful memoir titled Diving Bell and the Butterfly. It's a great example of a system in nature that is having such a full conscious experience as full as I am having right now, but with no ability to move or communicate or exhibit any behavior that would tell us that this person is conscious. And so we can wonder if it's possible that there are other systems in nature that simply aren't able to communicate that consciousness is present in them.

[00:21:36]Is it possible?

[00:21:38]>> She's talking about awareness again.

[00:21:42]Like consciousness in something alive.

[00:21:48]You know, is something living.

[00:21:51]You know, if and now could and then consciousness be fundamental in nature.

[00:21:56]Again, she's talking she's now as far as I can tell talking about the domain of life, biological life.

[00:22:04]Consciousness is the way we talk about it is what exists whether there's life or no life.

[00:22:10]Whether there's objects or no objects.

[00:22:13]So again the words are confusing and I suspect if I were to query this lady what does she mean when she says consciousness? I bet um she would say something like if you if like she shows the guy who's disabled but he's still conscious ergo sentient or aware.

[00:22:42]She's thinking of consciousness like a living being aware.

[00:22:47]As far as I can tell.

[00:22:48]That is different than what we say when we mean consciousness here.

[00:22:54]That's yeah.

[00:22:59]John, anything?

[00:23:04]Nope.

[00:23:05]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, so anyway and and I [snorts] don't even know what we're watching. What are we watching? What's the title of this video?

[00:23:14]I'll stop the screen share.

[00:23:16]Consciousness is everything we know and experience yet its biggest mystery. See everything we know and experience.

[00:23:23]There you go.

[00:23:23]>> Yeah.

[00:23:24]>> She's talking about >> I I think that that's I think that that's I think that to be fair I don't think that the word consciousness as you use it or as Peter uses it uh was its original uh intent intended use.

[00:23:42]>> Right.

[00:23:43]>> that these people are using it is the is the like standard way.

[00:23:50]>> Yeah, 100% because I think the distinction that you're talking about is the distinction of >> [snorts] >> the realm of non-distinction. It's It's It's It's the unknown. It's that which >> It's It's what you can't go there.

[00:24:03]Right.

[00:24:04]>> So literally people have referred to what you're referring to by other words such as Tao and God.

[00:24:12]>> Right.

[00:24:12]>> And you just okay, fine, you know, or the all or being or whatever. It's like and then and then we think because we because I can say that people think okay oh that's what he's talking about. He's talking about this. He's and and maybe that helps point someone in the right direction and maybe it really doesn't.

[00:24:31]>> Yeah.

[00:24:32]>> But But I think most people what they're talking about consciousness is what you don't have when you're unconscious meaning like literally when you're out cold and there's nobody home.

[00:24:44]>> They think you don't have consciousness.

[00:24:46]Right.

[00:24:46]>> I think I think that that's you know there's nothing wrong with exploring that.

[00:24:52]>> No.

[00:24:52]>> I feel completely but we should expect people to to have the the that standard definition I think generally speaking.

[00:24:58]>> I think I think you're correct about that. And that's that's a good point.

[00:25:03]And with that I'm going to split. I have to go.

[00:25:07]Um so there you go. Hopefully it's clarifying cuz what I'm trying to do is separate out you know, nothing wrong with what she's saying. It's just Yeah, no, there actually is nothing wrong with what she's saying. It's just just the for the work for people to be able to engage in the work that I do, the work that we do here, um it's useful to make these distinctions. So then you can focus, you know where to focus and you're not confused. All right? And then again, I will keep reiterating that is the intent of the this reaction video.

[00:25:39]And um it's to serve the people who are want to engage in this work.

[00:25:43]>> [clears throat] >> And perhaps listen to some some crap that we have to say.

[00:25:46]>> Stupid stupid jokes [laughter] and terrible opinions about >> Right. Opinions and stuff like that.

[00:25:53]Entertainment that hopefully is also educational. So with that I have to go.

[00:25:58]Catch you later. Much love.

[00:26:01]Uh John.

[00:26:02]Thank you. And I got to run and I'll text you.

[00:26:06]>> All right. Cheers.

[00:26:07]>> All right. Take care, man. See you.