Secrets of the "Trump Charmer": How NYC’s Socialist Mayor Won Over the Oval Office | First Draft

Added: 2026-05-21

[00:00:03]Good morning everyone and welcome to First Draft where I talk with journalists and authors about their important work and the stories behind them. I'm Susan Deeus, the executive editor here at Lincoln Square. New York City Mayor Zoran Mandami has been working to prove something that many people thought was impossible, showing that government can actually work for the people. Last week, he announced that in less than 200 days in office, he had balanced the city's budget, eliminating a 12 billion dollar deficit down to zero. Joining us to talk about this and so much more that's going on in the Empire State is Audrey Kemp, who covers politics, immigration, labor, housing, and healthc care for Courier News's Brand New York outlet. Audrey, thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:54]>> Thanks so much for having me, Susan.

[00:00:55]It's an honor.

[00:00:57]>> Great. Well, I know that your outlet just launched on May 4th, so it's brand new, but it looks like you've really hit the ground running. Um, and let's let's talk a little bit about uh Mayor Mum Dami because he really has hit the ground running. um running New York City and uh he certainly has his critics, but regardless of how they may feel, uh eliminating such a huge budget deficit is a massive accomplishment and that's something that a lot of local officials struggle with, you know, especially with some of the uncertainty that we're facing in the economy nationwide. So, can you talk about how this process went down and how he was able to do that?

[00:01:42]Yeah, absolutely. So, as you alluded to, he just, you know, announced that he closed a $12 billion budget that he inherited from Eric Adams. And his essentially his his strategy there was by taxing the rich, which of course is sometimes at odds with the establishment in our own state. Um, but he's he's been able to do that and you know he plans to continue to tax the rich to fund child care programs, housing, health care, etc. here in the state. It's been an absolute sprint, right? Because he's been able to do this in just the six months that he's been in office. He also plans to fund cityrun grocery stores, the first of which launched just this week. So, he obviously had very ambitious plans on the campaign trail.

[00:02:36]seemed like rhetoric at the time, but now it's delivery, right? We're in the results phase. And to come right out of the gate clearing a 12 billion dollar budget deficit, I think speaks for it speak excuse speaks for itself.

[00:02:51]>> Yeah. So, his solution was to tax the rich. Obviously, billionaires are are not big fans of that. and you're seeing a huge backlash to a ballot initiative in California that would impose a wealth tax. Uh what's been what's been the response in New York? Um and how has the mayor responded to that criticism?

[00:03:16]>> It's a really good question. So, by and large, you know, Zoron doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are several uh progressive candidates in office that come from the Democratic Socialists of America that propagate this tax the rich campaign whether it be Clare Valdez or Christristen Gonzalez, right? He has a lot of allies, Chio in office already that support this tax the rich platform to invest uh wealth that is according to them concentrated at the top down into you know different programs to improve the I guess the standard of living for residents. Um, however, right, of course, there's hocal, there's the ultra wealthy, there's the establishment here, there are the power brokers that hold that wealth here in the state. And the general um fear, right, that their wealth is going to be taken away um is is is palpable. Um there's there's a fear that the wealthy are going to flee the state and with them jobs and opportunities will also flee, right?

[00:04:27]Because they're ultimately the ones who who own capital, who own um employers or our employers. Um and so that tension is very present. Um however, Zoron wants to meet them where they are. You know, we see him working with venture capitalists. you see him working with figures like, you know, the Bloombergs of the state. Um, and so he's really trying to collaborate with them. Um, and try to, I guess, quell some of their fears and anxieties that, you know, we can we can achieve a lot together, right? We can >> meet the needs of New Yorkers and that ultimately improves everyone and it improves our state and improves our economy. So he's really trying to make the case for that as well as his his peers and allies in office.

[00:05:17]>> Yeah. And we saw how effectively he was able to neutralize and even charm President Trump in the Oval Office several months ago. I talk to us about that dynamic because there have been a number of politicians who have not been as successful on the Democratic side in tangling with Trump and actually the fact that mom Donnie was able to um get Trump to almost be a fanboy over him was really weird to see.

[00:05:53]>> Indeed, it really was. I don't think anyone could have predicted that meeting to go as well as it did, especially because Zoron has been on the record calling Trump a fascist, right?

[00:06:04]>> And he says it confidently. Um, at the same time, I think in the same way that he is working with, you know, the NYPD is working with the ultra wealthy power brokers of our state, right? He understands that you have to collaborate, you have to work diplomatically. even if you might not agree with them on every front, right?

[00:06:28]Um and so it's it's been very interesting to see um Zoron being able to charm President Trump. And I think, you know, he also said that that was strategic because he wants to protect the vulnerable communities in New York, but especially the immigrant communities that make up New York. New York is one of the most diverse, if not the diverse most diverse city in the whole country, the whole world, the whole country. And so, you know, he really does have to uh extend an olive branch in order to keep New Yorkers safe. Mhm. And you know, he's proven to be a really skilled politician where um he and Governor Kathy Hokll, you know, who is a big moderate, you know, they've endorsed each other. They have worked well together. Can you talk about how that alliance came about and does this prove that the gulf between the moderate and the progressive wings of the Democratic party can actually be bridged?

[00:07:33]Yeah, absolutely. I think the most predominant way in which they've been able to collaborate is through the budget, right? Because I think Zoron himself was an assembly member prior to becoming the mayor. And so he is well aware of how the establishment works and how to collaborate with them to pass, you know, more progressive measures uh in order to serve his, you know, constituents at the time and now all of New York City. So they have to work together. They have to collaborate together whether it's on climate, on housing, on child care, on health care.

[00:08:12]And so they have been able to work together. You know, Hokll is a little bit more of a pragmatist, right? And Mandani is more of um I idealist is isn't the word, right? Because he's actually implementing what he's what he's promising, but he is certainly uh ambitious in what in what um government can can provide New Yorkers. So their alliance is I think very promising and I think it's it's very necessary in order to get his agenda across and achieved.

[00:08:49]>> Yeah.

[00:08:50]>> Right. Well, you mentioned that uh he has uh earlier this week he announced the first publicly operated grocery store which was a big campaign promise for him. Uh, and uh, this is a really big undertaking. Uh, and I think some people probably thought it was just rhetoric, but he is actually implementing it because there are so many neighborhoods in New York that don't have a grocery store. And, you know, that is a huge problem for people uh, who are facing this massive affordability crisis um, in the country.

[00:09:29]So, I know you've done some reporting on this. talk to us about what this is going to look like in practice.

[00:09:36]>> Absolutely. So, earlier this week, I traveled up to the South Bronx. Uh, and it's very interesting. The location that he chose was a former juvenile detention center. So, it's really a reclamation of a place with, you know, a dark, sad history, >> bringing something that is positive to a community that really needs it. Um the Bronx in particular is really underserved. um by and large it is considered a food desert although you know so so much of the the resources of that of that neighborhood is u extrapolated elsewhere right like they feed the rest of the city but by and large that burrow is underserved and so I think you know Zoron actually delivering on that promise announcing that he's going to o you know open the first cityrun grocery store in the most underserved burrow of New York City is you know is is genuinely super heartening. Um, and it was it was a pleasure to cover. Um, and you know, this is of course like the first of five that he's going to unveil across the city and um, yeah, it's it's it's very interesting. So, in in practice, of course, that's going to be powered by unions. Um, unions were very well represented at, you know, the announcement.

[00:10:59]Um because according to Mumdani, you know, he said in his remarks that unions are um the one of the the strongest solutions to addressing inequality that working people face. Um so it's going to be powered by union power and of course it's going to be funded again by public funds which is why the relationship between Zoron and Governor Hokll is so vital right in getting this agenda across. Um, it it's just one of many examples of Mumani and his vision to serve the people of New York, serve everyday New Yorkers.

[00:11:40]>> Yeah, it's going to be very interesting to watch. It opens in 2027.

[00:11:44]>> So, so much of what you have to do as a mayor, as a local official is, you know, taking care of just those bread and butter issues for your constituents. And you know, we all saw him get out there, you know, with a snow shovel when New York was hit by, you know, a huge snowstorm. He's talked a lot about fixing the roads. And and that's the kind of thing that you hear from politicians, you know, across the spectrum in the Democratic party at least, you know, moderates, progressives, everybody needs to try and, you know, make sure that we can all get to work one way or another. But what seems to distinguish um Zoran from a lot of politicians is he has kind of learned the lesson maybe something that that you know Trump has mastered that you can't just do good. You can't just implement policies. You need to tell people how you're doing it. You need to basically sell them on it. And that's something that I think former President Biden uh did not do very effectively with things like, you know, the IRA. And a lot of people, you know, may have benefited, but they didn't know that that money was coming from the government. Maybe they thought that it was the Republican congressman who took credit for it. And, you know, he was the one who was delivering those jobs in the district and fixing the roads. So you talk with us because you know I I think you can reduce it down to like look Zoran's really good on Instagram and Tik Tok and that you know sure he has charisma but he seems to have tapped into something that would be really beneficial for Democrats across the country to do to really connect with people.

[00:13:24]>> Yeah, absolutely. His like like you alluded to his social strategy has been very effective. Um, I think the candid nature of his delivery, right, his message is very approachable and it gets people who wouldn't otherwise be maybe civically engaged to listen and that is very resonant with Courier Newsroom's mission as well, right? We aim to explain to everyday people why you should pay attention to policy, why you should pay attention to who represents you in Albany, right? because those are the people who vote on your rent. Those are the people who vote on your schools.

[00:14:03]And Zoron has been, you know, delivering that repeatedly on the campaign trail, right? Freeze the rent, fast and free buses, right? He's doing that translation work for everyday New Yorkers. And I think that is >> the piece of the puzzle that makes his his technique so successful and so effective. Um because you know I think jargon can be lost on you know everyday working people who might not be as plugged in. They might not be reading city and state. They might not understand um what policy looks like and he's making them less abstract and making them real for people. And I think that's why his his campaign has been so resonant. And also like like you alluded to, you know, he's he's filling 100,000 potholes in his first 100 days. I mean, he's really delivering on those things and making politics a real tangible reality for people to understand, >> right? Yeah. I know so much of the reporting that you and other reporters do at Courier is uh aimed at making sure that people who may not want to read your article, you know, still get good information, whether they're on Instagram or Tik Tok. And I know you've done some really powerful reporting on uh the historic testimony of Epstein survivors in Albany in your state house last week. I think we have some of your reporting. Um, and just wanted to give a trigger warning for the content.

[00:15:38]>> Karine Silva, >> I'm a victim and survivor of Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking. I'm here today, but it took me a lifetime to be able to speak about what happened to me. I live in Queens, New York. I'm a very hardworking single mom and proud of how far I came. I met at Jeff Epstein in 2001. I was I was told I could give him a massage to make money.

[00:16:08]No one ever told me it was going to be sexual.

[00:16:12]He bullied me into sexual acts with him.

[00:16:17]I was just 17 years old at that time, a child. He asked me to undress and touched me. I was scared, confused, and didn't know what to think. He abused me after that again until he told my friend that I was too brown, too dark.

[00:16:40]I was really hurt by what Epstein did to me.

[00:16:45]So that was testimony from Karine D Silva and th this was her first time testifying about the abuse that she suffered due to Jeffrey Epstein like so many women. Um we've covered a number of the hearings on Capitol Hill. Uh but can you talk with us about how this hearing in Albany came about?

[00:17:07]>> Yeah, absolutely. And so there's actually a package of bills that these Epstein survivors are fighting for that would allow them to sue his estate.

[00:17:19]>> And you know, it's it's actually quite amazing because prior to this, you know, this package there there are no um there are no laws that allow victims of human trafficking to sue for punitive damages.

[00:17:33]And so these very these very brave women um testified before the New York State Senate uh for the very first time. And as you saw in that that clip, you know, the the trauma is is very present. It's an everpresent part of their life. And they're really pushing for this legislation to be passed. And uh what what isn't actually um visible in those clips is you know listening to different lawmakers uh different you know Democrats in office um and the way that they are so gracious uh to hear the testimony of these survivors and they're really trying to pass this legislation so that there's not only justice for these survivors but you know vict future victims of human trafficking. It's it's really the first of its kind >> legislation and yeah to hear those those accounts was was very harrowing but it also really localizes you know not only like the national scandal right but it transforms scandal into policy like there's something that we can do about this phenomenon and especially here in New York right which used to be Epstein's playground right he had that mansion in the upper side on 71st Street. It really does localize this story, >> right? Well, we know that the Trump Department of Justice clearly is not interested in uh pursuing any justice for victims. They've been stonewalling um at the national level and uh they have refused to follow the law that was passed, the bipartisan Epstein transparency act um and withheld about $3 million documents. And so now a lot of survivors are looking at states like New York or New Mexico to try and find justice. What would you say is the likelihood that this package will pass?

[00:19:33]Oh, it's it's very hard to say. You know, I think there are some folks in in power who would very much not like it to pass. You know, we even had Melania Trump declare that she had no connections to >> Epstein. Um, so I think there will be resistance, but telling these stories and providing a platform, right, for for bills of this nature is is really what it's what it's all about. This is why Corer does what it what it does is to provide a platform for stories like this that matter. Uh, I of course hope that these these bills pass. It's just all about rallying rallying support um and garnering Yeah. garnering support for for this kind of legislation.

[00:20:24]Of course, yeah, the battle continues in Albany.

[00:20:26]>> Yeah. So, Democrats control the assembly. Um is there some resistance from Democrats or uh is it mostly coming from the Republican side?

[00:20:38]Not that I'm aware of, but that could be a really interesting follow-up story.

[00:20:45]Yeah, because uh obviously uh there are so many powerful people who were part of this nefarious web that Epstein weaved and you know as we've found there have been many powerful people in Trump's orbit but it you know there there are bipartisan enablers of of Epstein as we've seen from the Obama and Clinton eras as well. So, I know that uh even though Epstein's crimes were kind of an open secret amongst the rich for many years, uh you never saw any move in in states like New Mexico or New York up to this point to to do anything about it. And it really took phenomenal reporting of Julie Brown down in Florida before anything happened there. So that's why, you know, the reporting that you do is so critical, you know, to um help try and get justice, especially when we're we're not seeing that at the federal level. Uh and and so where where are we at in this process? Is it in committee right now?

[00:21:54]>> Yes, it's my understanding that it is in committee and you know, there's a lot of momentum uh to spread awareness right here in New York. the Epstein reading rooms opened in New York City. Um, so there's a lot of I think everyday people who want to who want to see justice and that and that certainly helps.

[00:22:17]>> Absolutely. Well, I know that obviously a lot of blue cities have been targets of ICE and New York has um a vibrant immigrant population that contributes so much. Are you expecting to see things ramp up, especially as we're getting into summer and this is an election year?

[00:22:42]>> Yeah, unfortunately we have seen an uptick in ICE activity, especially here in New York City. Um I went to cover a rally um hosted by Brooklyn Burough President Antonio Renoso um alongside city council member Sandy Nurse. uh Sandy nurse was actually a witness to an ICE raid at Woff Hospital that you know involved a young man being dragged out of of the hospital. Um so unfortunately there has been an uptick in activity a targeting of our immigrant communities here in the city. Um, at the same time, you know, it is it is very heartening to see some of our elected officials fighting back in that case. And also, um, Brad Lander, who is running in the 10th district, I met with him at 26 Federal Plaza because he's been showing up to immigration court for over a year now. was actually where he himself was arrested um to bear witness to ICE agents who essentially camp out outside of immigration court, which is very nefarious when you think about it. These are these are immigrants who are going through the legal channels. They're showing up to court, right, to navigate the immigration system here in the United States. And you know, he's witnessed family separations time and time again. and he's witnessed, you know, sometimes violent arrests um in these immigration courts. What's really interesting about that story is on Monday a federal judge actually ruled that they can't do that. However, Lander is actually showing up to immigration court today because ICE, accord showing up essentially ignoring this ruling. So, um I think that the chances of ICE activity continuing are high even though uh New York is doing everything it can to protect its immigrant communities. Um as alluded to, you know, I mean, New York has always been a city of immigrants, right? We used to have Klein Deutsland in in the Lower East Side. We have Brighton Beach. We have, you know, all of whom are um like Russian immigrants. Um, we have so many different immigrant diasporas that that make up New York and so um it's it's certainly a very sensitive topic and I hope to continue to cover that fight and um the people who are trying to protect those communities because it's still it's very much um an ongoing story.

[00:25:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about Brad Lander because uh he was one of the many candidates who ran for mayor last year and um joined forces with mom Donnie against uh it was kind of a anybody but Cuomo campaign and it was really unique to see uh politicians that tend not to play well with one another do that and form alliances. Um, and I I'm sure with what we're seeing with the California governor's race that a lot of people would like to see that over there. Um, but he's a really fascinating uh person. I know he spent some time in Minneapolis during just the lawless ICE raids there and you know talking with people on the ground about what they were facing and trying to help there. What do you see for his future in New York?

[00:26:26]Yeah, he is a very fascinating figure indeed. Um, obviously he has an activist background. Uh, he's been arrested several times just engaging in in civil disobedience and then of course he was the controller of New York City. And you know, now he's running in the 10th district against incumbent Dan Goldman.

[00:26:47]And you know, I had this very same question for him when I was on the ground with him at 26 Federal Plaza. And what's very interesting is he was clearly very um you know right rightfully shaken by the killings of Renee Good and and Alex Pretty um in Minneapolis. And he wants to see real accountability. He wants to see the agents who killed these citizens at a hearing. He wants real accountability. Um and that's what he sees lacking in what Dan Goldman has been able to provide. Although, you know, Dan Goldman has passed um or has tried to, you know, mitigate um ICE activity like through, you know, various various bills, um Lander wants to take it a step further. He wants the real hearings to >> be in New York City and uh he wants to see accountability in a more tangible way.

[00:27:44]Well, I know that you've done some Mayday coverage and uh it seems like there have been some really uh key links between the labor community and the immigrant im immigrant rights community.

[00:28:00]Um can you talk with us a little bit about those relationships and um how they may be helpful against you know future onslaught from the Trump administration.

[00:28:12]Hm, that's a really interesting question. Yes. And so I was on the ground at Washington Square Park to cover Mayday, which had a presence of I think over 60 labor unions. Um, and as Zoron previously said, you know, he he considers organized labor to be one of the the biggest um solutions to inequality that, you know, impacts working people. Um in in the past we've seen you know different labor unions uh fight for racial equality, fight for gender equality and by the same token you know um we can can absolutely I think um expect to see general strikes in response to ICE raids for example like we we've just seen you know one of the largest one of the first general strikes in in 90 years happened earlier this year. So organized labor, especially in the city of New York, is proving itself to be one of the the strongest tools that working people have, right? And of course, immigrants comprise a large um a large uh I guess proportion of of those unions. Um, when I was on the ground speaking with union workers, a lot of them were immigrants themselves and firmly believe in the power of of banding together, right? And so, um, that's that's been very heartening to cover and especially in the in yeah, in the wake of all of this this ICE activity. So, it'll it'll certainly be an area that I'll be I'll be watching. I'll be paying a lot of attention to.

[00:29:52]Can we expect to see that New York will join this uh redistricting arms race that's been going on across the country?

[00:30:02]Uh I know that there are some interesting dynamics in state politics there and uh so far we have not seen kind of the aggressive gerrymandering there that we have in some other states.

[00:30:16]Yeah, thankfully. I mean, it's been it's been very concerning to see what's you know, like with the Supreme Court passed like in Virginia and and the attacks on the Voting Rights Act, all of which Corer has been uh covering very closely uh for people to understand. Um, in the case of New York, um, I have re I have received a couple of of tips from sources about what some upstate Republicans are trying to do, at least in the way of ranked choice voting. And this is all very premature. I hope to do some more reporting on this, but I did receive a tip that some Republicans are trying to utilize rank choice voting in a petition um that would essentially take party lines off of ballots, which is >> concerning, right? Because that >> that's a step further than traditional rank choice voting. That's that's kind of giving people less information.

[00:31:15]>> Exactly. That's exactly what they're doing. So whereas like rank choice voting was something brought forth by progressives down here in New York City, right? It was more of like a democratic measure. Um they're trying to utilize it in a way or manipulate it in a way that would give voters like you said less information, less access to um you know what what candidates are running on what party. Um so >> that's a developing story. Stay tuned for more there. Um that is certainly concerning. Um yeah, the the redistricting and and gerrymandering um trend phenomenon that's happening across the country is is certainly pretty concerning. So I'll be I'll be watching that and I'll be reporting on any on any developments there. So stay tuned for more.

[00:32:06]Well, I know that you uh have not been digging into too many of the hot congressional primaries that are coming up uh very soon in your state, but you know, certainly the New York 12th race has gotten a lot of national attention.

[00:32:23]Congressman Jerry Nadler is retiring. Uh and there is a really crowded primary with some big names like George Conway, who used to be a longtime Republican. uh Jack Schawberg, who of course is a Kennedy uh and and has a lot of name recognition there and and several other um more local politicians that are running. Can you just give us the broadstrokes and and what the dynamics are in that race because um this is really one of the the wealthiest districts in the in the country and uh has gotten a lot of attention well beyond New York.

[00:33:01]>> Yes, absolutely. As you alluded to, this is the wealthiest congressional district in the country and I would consider it a proxy war for the future of the Democratic party, right? With during Nadler's open seat, there are some really interesting figures coming forth, right? Yes. Schlberg is not only endorsed by Nancy Pelosi, um, but he's running like a high energy social media campaign to, like you said, revive kind of like the Kennedy legacy. Um at the same time, you know, we have um Alex Boris running uh who has somewhat of a different background. He has a background in computer science and as an assembly member, he co-authored the raise act uh to regulate AI and I'm speaking with him actually this afternoon. The coverage of the congressional races are coming soon. I promise you with the uh the June primary coming up on on yeah on the 23rd uh we will be covering all of those in earnest. Um but I'm actually speaking with Alex Bores this afternoon about the the the AI industry dark money crypto and AI titans that are like flooding this race specifically to stop him because he wants to regulate them. He wants to regulate AI. Um, so you know, he's he's kind of going up against uh some of the most powerful figures in in the political landscape today, which is very interesting. Um, and at the same time, you know, you have some more like institutionalists like Michael Lasher, who was backed by Bloomberg. Um, he kind of represents that traditional New York City power structure. Um, and so it'll be really interesting that race in particular. Um, to dig into like the tech money angle. Um, >> yeah, I think the real >> Yeah, we've seen that the the tech oligarchs have been playing on a lot of primaries um on the Democratic side this year. So, that's a really interesting dynamic.

[00:35:03]Yeah, especially, you know, with with Palunteer being such, you know, a controversial company and it's and it's meddling in in our our political system in more ways than one.

[00:35:14]>> Yeah, >> absolutely. Well, Audrey, I understand that in addition to uh all the time that you spend reporting on issues impacting New Yorkers, you're also teaching civics and you're informing the the public how to register to vote or how they can connect with legislators. So, can you talk with us because, you know, that's that's that's definitely different than just reporting on the news.

[00:35:41]>> Yeah, absolutely. And so that's what we would kind of consider to be like service journalism to get everyday people to understand the deadlines they need to know, how to properly register, how to make sure that you're able to participate in the primary. And so those are kind of laying the foundation for our coverage of the the House races uh to come just to make sure that you know constituents know that they're that they're not you know going to show up to a polling place and be and be sent away.

[00:36:15]So yeah, I mean essentially because we're such a new newsroom, I was basically stockpiling um our content with more evergreen content um that's that's helpful to voters before we get into like the nitty-gritty like like we alluded to like the tension and the drama of some of these congressional races, >> which I mean there is no shortage of information these days, but there is a shortage of good practical information and how to just find those basics out there like where is my polling place? Uh has my district changed because you know we seem to be redistricting every other week.

[00:36:57]>> So it's great that you can be uh a font of information like that for for readers where they know this is a trusted place that they can go.

[00:37:08]>> Thank you.

[00:37:08]>> Um yeah. So Audrey, can you tell us what is the best way that people can find your work? Hm. Well, certainly our website, corerny.com.

[00:37:19]Yeah, we're a fairly new website, but there's already, I think, north of 15 stories that I've published in a matter of weeks on there. And of course, subscribing to our newsletter, so you can get the rundown of everything I've been up to that week, as well as what, you know, other outlets in the ecosystem are running that are worthy of, you know, worthy of your reading. Um so yeah I would say certainly the website certainly the newsletter and then of course as you alluded to earlier social media um courier newsroom is a social first civically engaged uh newsroom valuesdriven newsroom. So we really do try to distill um the information that we that we develop in in more ways than one that are you know going to reach as many people as possible. So we do leverage, you know, Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok, and YouTube as well. Um, but of course I I also certainly want to plug the the website as um as a long form magazine writer. I think, you know, not only do I enjoy writing long, but you know, we have amazing other state newsrooms, uh, many talented journalists on on staff. So I would always plug the website and the newsletter as well.

[00:38:39]Great, Audrey. Thank you so much for spending time with us today and I hope that you'll come back and talk with us as uh some of these primaries evolve and we're looking ahead to the midterms as well.

[00:38:52]>> I would absolutely relish that, Susan.

[00:38:53]Thank you for having me.

[00:38:55]>> Thank you.