Jamie Pacton and Kendall Kulper: The Hyacinch Labyrinth

[00:00:00]A Starllet Secret to sensational afterlife was a JLG gold standard selection and Bank Street best book of the year. She graduated from Harvard University with an honors degree in history and literature and lives in Cambridge with her husband, two daughters, and much Instagrammed dog Abby. The Heisent Labyrinth is a lush fairy core sappic YA fantasy that returns readers to the fa world introduced in Jamie Pton's best-selling novel, The Absent Undergrounds. Folks, we are in for such a treat tonight.

[00:00:31]Please join me in a round of applause for Jamie Carson and Kendall Culber.

[00:00:39]Thank you. Thank you for being here.

[00:00:42]>> Yeah. Thanks so much for having us. Um I'm Kendall. I'm gonna introduce Jamie again. Um I'm so excited to be here.

[00:00:49]Thank you so much to Brooklyn Booksmith for having us here. Thank you to Jamie for inviting me to come and chat about this gorgeous book. I absolutely loved it. I read it in one sitting. I handed it to my daughter. She tore over it.

[00:01:03]This is her beautiful um appropriate lace ribbon uh bookmark. And um yeah, I'm happy to just jump right into questions. I'm so excited to hear more about this book. So um I have to say I am not somebody who is up on my fairy lore. Um, and I'm curious what how did you first discover BA lore and what is about what is it that you found so fascinating?

[00:01:37]>> Oh, um, I do love that question and I, you know, like any kid, I read fairy stories and I think that, um, there's such a wide range, right? So there's fa lore, like we're talking Irish fairy tales and all the lore of those. And then there's the stories we grew up with or which have like fa incidentally um fairy godmothers and things like that. I guess as I just grew as a reader, I found myself drawn again and again to like dark fairy stories. Anything HG Perry writes, I love. Um, and I did a lot of work in my grad program actually on fairy tales and wicked stepmothers and you know rethinking all of that um within the literary tradition. So you know it just was natural. I stumbled into a play then created this one um which I never actually saw happening though for my career. I actually thought I'd write books a little closer to what you write like with the historical setting and but magic appeared in the Vermeilian Emporium and then we just kept kind of peeling back the layers to get to the Fay realm. So yeah, but I am like I do love modern retellings too like the Emily Wild books and um interesting things happening in that.

[00:02:54]>> Yeah. I I was curious. I know in your kind of at the end in your author's note, you mentioned doing a ton of research into fa um I love research unsurprisingly as a historical fantasy author and I always feel like you discover things in research that are so incredible and it becomes like a goal to just try to shove them into the book even if they don't quite fit. Was there anything that you came across that you were like, "Oh, this has to go into the book, but didn't quite make it."

[00:03:26]>> Oh, okay. Well, let me back that up to a different angle on that question. So, on the cover, um you'll notice that he has wings. This is the like the best um the thing I had to shove into the book. Um in the Asgra, she does not have wings.

[00:03:40]Like, she appears as a secondary character. I don't know why she doesn't have wings. I just didn't think of it like at the time. And you know, here's this fairy princess running around with no wings. I I I never thought I'd get a third book, so it wasn't a problem. And then um this book went through four iterations and we described to the artist what it was about. So then they came back with this beautiful cover, which was like, okay, it's finalized.

[00:04:02]This is your cover. She has wings prominently on the cover attached [laughter] to that. And I was like, "Oh no, now I have to make sure those end up in the book in some way." Um and so there was some sort of uh back writing I had to do. And it actually became quite a a plot point. um and a central point of Addison's identity and she's kind of magical but her mother makes her wear these fake wings and um so that is one piece of just not lore but details that had to be in the book because it's on the cover imagine if [laughter] I read a book with no wings and but did you um because I feel like highest not being magical is kind of like a a key part of her character. So, was that not something you had decided until the you saw the wings? Um, I knew she was going to be unmagical. I just didn't understand the extent of it. It was more like it's either her magic is coming in or not. But again, I did not like in Absence Underground ever expect to get to explore that in a full book.

[00:05:06]>> Um, so I may not have thought about it as much as one who was writing three books in a series should. Um, yeah. So, she was always unmagical, but just like kind of an evolving thing, not it's just not happening for her.

[00:05:24]>> I always think it's funny how because I I sort of had a similar experience where my three most recent books, they're they're technically in a series, but I wrote each one not knowing that there was going to be another one. And then you get to the last one and you're like, "Oh, shoot. What did I say about this character that now it's like in some ways you sort of feel like you're trapped in a box and then in other ways it kind of feels like you need limitations to work well a little bit.

[00:05:54]So how did you approach that?

[00:05:58][clears throat] >> It was like four traps of this book while recovering from major surgeries and just trying to figure it out. Um I guess like I said about peeling back the layers. So, in Vermillion Emporium, there is like a moonshaped snake that is very very important to the entire Enterprise of Magic. And then and I said, "Oh, I wonder where that comes from. Maybe I'll figure it out in a different book." And then in Out of Underground, um when they go into the FY realm in order to do this heist, I had to figure out quite a bit. Um but then when we were situated in the Fay realm the entire time for this book, um that's where I really had to dig into the culture and sight and such things.

[00:06:37]Sorry, I've lost the thread of this question, but [laughter] >> third book uh series. Do you feel like you enjoy the limitations of of this previous or is it like but it wasn't even limit too many limitations I guess is where I was going with this because >> I was only bounded by a very very few things that I had said in the earlier books because the magic was so soft that [laughter] it was like oh by the time I got to this one I was without limitations but with like having to like maintain continuity with some of the questions. I guess I didn't say it's not like a series where you know you've um done something terrible to a character in book one you then have to like you can't bring them back in [laughter] three years or something. It's connected standalones um in the same general universe. So that's helpful at least.

[00:07:26]Now that said I am working on another book in this world and I will I will be much closer bound in that one because they exist in the same realm and have the same like rules for magic and things. So >> we'll see if that [laughter] >> a problem a delightful problem for later for us.

[00:07:41]>> So this book coming up is what do you say it's like more of a direct sequel?

[00:07:45]>> Well, no. [laughter] And again that one is not announced or sold or anything.

[00:07:52]>> Um so but like is a professor in that you know what I mean? So it's still further down.

[00:07:59]It's related and recognized a little but not. So I think that's how I that's how I write my connected stand. What about you? Do you do that? Like are you like, "Oh, here's the next character in this world who we've already met," like in a romance novel, or is it something new every time, but there's a familiar story or something?

[00:08:16]>> Yeah. So, my three books follow three sisters.

[00:08:20]>> And in the first book, it was always just going to be a standalone. And um I I never anticipated writing another book in this world, but she just happened to have two little sisters. You know, again, it's one of those things where you sort of like throw in a side character and then all of a sudden it becomes like the cornerstone of your next story. So, you know, I could have had her have like three sisters or one or brothers, but she happened to have two 12-year-old twin little sisters. And the book was set in 1928. And I realized that when these sisters were 18, we were going to be in the 30s, which was going to be a totally new era. And I loved Hollywood. old Hollywood. I'd always kind of wanted to write an old Hollywood book. So then I thought, why don't I connect it to this world and have her be, you know, have have this book be about one of the little sisters. So they're totally separate. And then, you know, again, I I wrote that book and then I didn't have any plans for the other one. And then my editor said, "There are two little sisters. Give us the next."

[00:09:25]>> Yeah, maybe you should write another book. And so again, like that one was, you know, by the time you get to like further down, you're way more bound by what it is because I had already established kind of who these characters were and you have like a throwaway sentence in one story about like, oh, she's she's not going to come to the phone because she's really busy and then you realize like, oh no, now I have to like she has to be busy at that time in the book. So yeah, you sort of paint yourself into into a corner, but it then it kind of leads to like fun magical moments that you weren't really expecting to have happen. So that's to your earlier question like I feel like there were not fairy lord that me there were like connections or surprise like moments like oh I can solve it this way.

[00:10:13][laughter] Did you know that Brandon Sanderson um has two full-time employees to maintain the Brandon Sanderson Bible, which is like his um compendium of lore for his many many books. So, you just think about like to have two people across two full-time jobs. Like >> that's incredible, right?

[00:10:30]>> How do I get that done? [laughter] >> And then this in the age of like internet spreadsheets, like that's just an incredible amount of story.

[00:10:39][laughter] Well, I always feel like anytime you sort of skimp on a fact, you always find a reader who will find something and we'll send you an email and be like, "Actually, in 19 and you're like, "Oh my gosh, how did I find the one person?"

[00:10:55]>> One of my friends writes historical World War II fiction and she gets a lot of those emails about any [laughter] and every like headache.

[00:11:04]Um, and I Yeah, I think that >> Have you gotten any uh fairy lore emails?

[00:11:10]>> I don't get fairy lore emails. I did get like I had just an email that was like, "Wait, how do the dragons talk like to um this or that?" And the simple answer to that is just they choose who they want to talk to. It's not really a like a set rule system. So, >> answer that one real easy. [laughter] I always like writing fantasy. My first two books uh were sort of similar historical fantasy with magic. And anytime my editor would be like, "Well, but how did they get from here to there to there?" And I'd say, "It's magic.

[00:11:42]>> We're in a magic world."

[00:11:44]>> Are you finding your microphone?

[00:11:46]>> Um, no. I turned mine off.

[00:11:49][laughter] >> So, speaking of magic, I really um was really fascinated kind of about the way magic gets treated in this book because it's you know, it's seen as something that people kind of covet. Some people are really afraid of it. Um, and I felt like you could see a lot of or I could see a lot of parallels to kind of things that are attractive and dangerous, whether it's like power or, you know, drugs or even as I was reading and I was thinking of like AI, this like magical ability. Was there anything that you had in mind as you were writing?

[00:12:26]>> So, interesting. You should say drugs.

[00:12:28]was never my intent, but my editor and I had a long conversation about like magic as a drug and you see that in some of the sisters backstory and stuff. Um, one thing I think a lot about and I thought a lot about this book was like what it is to be a human in the fay realm, especially with all the like the lore of um, fay food or you'll end up dancing all for all time. So, I do think it's very dangerous and spective in a way that um would be hard to walk away from, but um and I do think the FO I wrote an essay about this for one of the school library journals about how they much like Jurassic Park. What we love about Fay Stories is that it's both filled with wonder and also extremely dangerous. So, like you never know if you're going to get like a little mushroom town around the corner or you're going to get like Vloctor basically or the dragon form of it, you know.

[00:13:21]>> Um >> yeah. So, the magic um it was fun to play with like what innate magic fa creatures might have versus what a human they're scrapping by might want to learn and then how it would impact them. Um and I I do think it would be almost like a drug or something, you know, very coveted but in a lot of people remember Vermillion like magic is something pulled from people's bodies and so it becomes a commodity. Um, so I don't know a lot about magic and what it what it would entail and I don't think AI is magic.

[00:13:57]>> No, no, no.

[00:13:58]>> It's quite the opposite.

[00:14:00]>> Yeah, indeed.

[00:14:01]>> Yeah. I think it was just the the idea that sometimes the easy way is not the best way or the safest way or any of those things, but there's something special in kind of doing something the non-mogical way, doing something just as yourself. Um, what is do you feel like you have a personal could you guess like if you were dropped in the faith world, how would you navigate this magical system?

[00:14:29]I would find some potions immediately as quickly as possible. Um, I would get someone to invite me into their home so I could eat food because I did set up the rules of food a little differently.

[00:14:39]So, you can eat, but it just has to be a hospitality based thing. Um, otherwise you're doomed, right? [laughter] Everything you eat is going to entrap you further.

[00:14:48]>> That's just trouble. Um, >> yeah. So, I those were the things I would do. I would hopefully find some friends. Um, I don't know. But I wouldn't like I got asked this question at a different event which was and I'll ask you. If you got invited into the fair room by a charming fairy, would you say yes?

[00:15:12]>> Oh, I think no. You're so [laughter] scary. I think like very few human I think like at least the stories that I've read. I'm sure there are others out there that where the endings are not tragic and terrible, but I feel like any human that kind of goes into this world, it's like the best you can hope for is that they just kind of leave you alone.

[00:15:37][laughter] >> It's like they're never like and everything was great. It's like you're either kind of under somebody's thrral or you're sort of totally corrupted by magic.

[00:15:48]>> Yeah, I think I would be too scared to go. I would probably say yes. [laughter] But that's one thing I thought about too though. If you think about all these humans who have fallen into Bay like this book posits that they would eventually like form families and societies of some like maybe on the fringes of it, but it seems like on a long enough timeline there'd be a lot of them there who at least weren't entirely in source. So, I thought that was a fun like sort of interesting thing to explore at least a little bit.

[00:16:22]>> Yeah, [laughter] it is possible to survive as a human in a world, but not necessarily.

[00:16:31]>> Well, I really liked that um Hyas and Chloe are kind of both outsiders, but they're sort of outsiders in really different ways that I appreciated. You know, Chloe is a human in the fa world and high fay princess who has no magic. And I kind of liked that sometimes it was almost like turned off on who was who had sort of like more knowledge in the moment. Like I appreciated that, you know, they would get to kind of like a rough and tumble town and hide is like, you know, like ask you do they serve roast present here?

[00:17:13]>> So I I think like how did you um and I think it's really nice because it it it sort of evens them out quite a bit that it's not just this human and this fairy, but they they kind of appreciate each other's skills. So, how did you kind of come up with having two outsiders in different ways?

[00:17:36]>> The nice thing is like Chloe was already faked a little bit in Vermillion Aquarium as someone who has been in an orphanage and washed up and so she had like street skills and smarts and things that she brought to surviving in the FA realm. Um, I don't think I directly like deliberately said I'm going to write this, you know, they're so opposite. Um, but it just was inevitable based on who they were and where they ended up. Um, and I do like that balance. So, I do like the clothes like when you've never washed a dish in your whole life. They end up in this tavern washing dishes for their supper. And it's such an ordinary scene, but it is only like ordinary if you're not a magical favorist whose mother is mad and you know, you've grown up with fairy banquetss every day of your life. Like then it becomes like something hard and challenging. I really did enjoy kind of teasing out the ordinary moments for Chloe that would have been very hard for that.

[00:18:38]Yeah. No, I I really loved their relationship and I think, you know, this book is a love story as along with kind of a a fantasy fairy story. And I think, you know, personally my favorite sort of YA romances that I think kind of what makes YA romance so special and sort of distinct from other genres of romance is that, you know, you did it so well in this book that they really, you know, it starts with a kiss. That's not a spoiler. It's like on the very first page. Um, but it's not this insta attraction sort of like fully like lusting just talking about how like hot the other person is. They have a real friendship and you see that friendship and kind of mutual appreciation grow.

[00:19:30]Uh, which I just I loved. I feel like it's such a it it's so nice to kind of have a YA romance that that does that that it just feels like that is actually how young people fall in love.

[00:19:44]>> Um, how did you approach uh building their relationship and writing the romance?

[00:19:50]>> Good question. And I do think that this it's at least like in trade reviews like younger readers will like this and I think it's for that reason. Um it's not super sexy or something. Um, and in Bermudian Emporium, they fall very very fast. And my my assertion there was that if you like you survive certain death together and then you want to go get coffee, you know, like you built the groundwork, you're good. You can insta love after that. Um, this they've known each other for a long time, but they're not quite like roommates like we were in the absence underground. Um, and they both got secrets. So I built that likely like brick by brick. every little interaction that made them kind of go, "Okay, we can maybe be more than friends slightly." Um, so it wasn't like it was pre-established, but not to the degree, I guess, of two human girls who were hanging out in what was functionally fantasy in Paris.

[00:20:45]Um, yeah, and I but the choice to to slow burn it was one that was really hard because I have been writing adult fantasy. [laughter] That's a totally different situation, a totally different expectation. So, I felt like I had to had a lot of restraint in many many moments. Um, that would have turned differently in a different genre or even a different YA book. Um, but I did, you know, I wasn't specifically saying, I should write this like low heat or something, but just how I felt right for these characters and their own insecurities and things. So, yeah, Chloe's not going to fall in love. Just going to go home.

[00:21:27]Just going to be out of there.

[00:21:29]>> Have all the books in the series been romance, dual narration? Yes, actually.

[00:21:35]So, first one is Quinta and Twain female.

[00:21:41]Um, yep. Always dual narration, always third person. Um, and that I was just telling Becca today started out in first person, but it didn't stick. My editor said, "Try it in third." Um, and that's where I planned it. Yeah.

[00:21:56]Uh so what why the combination of kind of fantasy and romance and dual narrators?

[00:22:04]What was the appeal to you? What I guess what maybe like what what is it about kind of telling these stories that I also made you want to tell a love story?

[00:22:16]>> Oh, I just love a love story. I just [laughter] love I have a lot of love in my life and I just I like telling love stories. I don't know. Those are fundamental stories, whether it's like a friendship story or a found family story. Like I love love stories. Um I do read a lot of weird books that don't have love stories, but I I enjoy writing love stories. Um so I guess I was drawn to that. But so the Vermillion Emporium started out as a historical about the Radium Girls, which is terribly tragic.

[00:22:46]And I started writing it. I was like, I don't want to do this to my characters, this inevitable ending. And so then I said, "What if we put it in a fantasy world and give them a happy ending, which was like the driving um plate point that was the destination I was pointed towards for that whole book.

[00:23:04]Um, and it just like it ended up being a love story because again, Twain just kind of appeared on the page and here we go." So I guess I like that parallelism for each book. Um, I yeah, I don't know.

[00:23:16]I just actually every book I've written our books are dual points of view romance is um another one that I have on submission is dual points of view ro this is what I do know [laughter] um perhaps I'll try a first person western so [laughter] different uh well I am always fascinated by dual point of view all my last three books have been dual point of view I uh actually really don't like writing them I find them very chall challenging But it I sort of like took a break from writing first person and wrote a dual narrator for the first modern girl and then again it just sort of turned into a book two and a book three and so now it's like become this thing that like even my editor now says this is what you're known for and I was like but I don't like doing it. Um, so do you find it challenging to write two kind of like I feel like you have this challenge of taking two arcs, but because your book can't be twice as long, you have half the amount of time to tell two arcs.

[00:24:26]That is always the thing that drives me crazy.

[00:24:29]>> Yeah.

[00:24:30]>> Um, I haven't written a single point of view perspective since like the 2017 book my agent signed me for. So, I am not it's been a long time since I've done one of those. I do feel like I knew that character really, really, really well and we got to see her grow. But, it is limiting, right? At least in a dual point of view. You can withhold information from one character or the other or you can like experience events from two different perspectives, which is always I think fun. I do love a bit of dramatic irony. So, your audience or one character knows more than the other does. Um, there's opportunity in it, I guess. Um, it's hard. [laughter] Um, it is challenging to like think of two characters and what they want and where they're going. Um, >> all right. You're convincing me of dual narrators. [laughter] It's great. Like I able to access a lot more, especially in a romance. Do you like a romance with a one person point of view?

[00:25:27]>> Um, well, it's interesting because the book that I'm working on right now started out as a it's different from my current series and I thought, okay, great. this is my opportunity to get back to what I love, a single narrative perspective. And it was a love story and it was it's like kind of a Cinderella thing where she meets a mass girl and she needs to find out who the girl she kissed was. And so it was a mystery of who who she actually kisses in this moment. And my editor was like, "No, I think it should be dual narrator and I think the girl she kisses should be the other narrator." And I was like, "Yeah, but you lose the mystery." And she was like, "Kendall, we all know who the girl she kisses at the ball is." It's no mystery.

[00:26:11]Okay.

[00:26:12]>> So, >> and your other character doesn't know.

[00:26:14]So, there is a mystery maintained.

[00:26:15]>> Yes. Yes. There is a mystery on her part and then the other girl just has to kind of like hold this mystery. So, she's correct in that like it's kind of a it it it adds a tension that I was not anticipating. But, I don't know. It's fun to kind of get to know a character.

[00:26:33]you know, when I switched it to to two people, I had to cut so much of this one character and all this backstory is kind of like on the on [laughter] the floor that I could have missed. But >> I do think some authors get away with writing like multiple points of view characters and then so like did you read bury our bones in the midnight? No, I did. So three characters and I think that you get almost three different books. I think it's 600 pages. Is it am I remembering that correctly? I don't know. It's a really really [laughter] hefty book. It's a good book.

[00:27:03]>> Um, and so I think like page lock can do that. Um, and give them all a lot of page space. Um, I do feel like I'm always cutting a little bit more, but >> I also write shorter than where it ends up. So my ears always write more. So [laughter] >> was there anything that you had to cut from this book that really you were sad to see go?

[00:27:27]>> No. because I write short, I actually added a lot that I was glad to see happen. So like everything that happens under the mountain was a much quicker um like they bopped in bopped out.

[00:27:39][laughter] So this is like I got you know the note was like really expand that and so I got to really like I would have I could have written like I don't know 100 more pages just in that sort of I don't want to spoil anything. It's not a huge spoiler but it's a little spoiler. It was very creepy. It was the most unsettling part >> because unsettling, right?

[00:28:03]>> It is the dancing.

[00:28:05]>> They would not go with the magical person, but they were funny.

[00:28:12]>> I promise you, right? [laughter] >> Definitely not. Um, so you mentioned that you have more stories planned. Oh, there would be. Yeah. Okay. Um, can you give us a little hint? Yeah. Uh, so in this world you need or just in general of both, whatever. Yeah. So, in general, I currently have a book on submission that I really hope sells. We'll see. Um, it is a sappic gender swelling of Icarus and Ariadne. So, Earth is a girl and um they have shared before and I I I loved it. I loved writing it. Um, so maybe that'll be something. Um, the other book in this world take it's like a dark I can't really it's not a real thing yet.

[00:28:58]So if I do it it's like a dark academia in the f book. That's what I'll say.

[00:29:05]>> I hope my editor's listening [laughter] how excited people are. Do you have, and it's okay if you don't want to answer this question, you want to keep it close to your heart, but do you have kind of like a dream book that you would love to write that maybe you've been thinking about for a while?

[00:29:25]>> So, the um the retelling of that book for me, it was a long long one actually.

[00:29:30]And yeah, to ground too because that one I went to a posters of Paris exhibit in 2012 at the Milwaukee Art Museum. I saw a little card about poster peeps and I said, "Oh, there's a book there." And I couldn't figure it out for a very, very long time. So, in some ways, I've already written both my trade books, but there's others I'm working on that I would love to have happen. Um, but yeah, like some of the big ones that have been on my very much like, you know, wish list to write are written.

[00:29:58]I was like, wow, how does it feel now that that's done? I mean, >> great.

[00:30:04]What about you? Do you have one that's like the book you hope you either get to write or get that publishes? Yes, I have been trying to It's funny that you said a first person western because I've been trying I have a western. It was supposed to be the second book in my two book debut deal and then it ended up being a my second book ended up being a companion novel. And I have been working on this darn book for uh well over 10 years at this point. It's just I it's gone through so many iterations and then I was like maybe I'll make it an adult book and then I thought maybe I'll make it novel and I do embroidery and so I texted my friend and I was like what if I do an embroidered graphic novel and she was like you're insane think about that so take 40 years it would take it would be 90. Yeah. So that is that is my my dream. I just think the western sort of genre. It's It's kind of like the only like distinctly American genre that exists kind of.

[00:31:11]>> And it's such a it's such kind of like a a key component of kind of like the American identity for good and evil. Um, and I just love kind of, you know, mining that. So I would someday Oh my gosh, I said that as a joke, but I would love to read that book. I think we always forget that the western time period is the Victorian time period just you know translated to the American West. So there's historical and like all the Gilden age but just >> Thank you. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. But anyway, back on you. So I love that you kind of got inspired by this poster exhibit. I think inspiration always comes from the craziest places.

[00:31:57]Uh what kind of when you kind of think about the things that inspired you writing this book or like maybe things that you sort of like I feel like sometimes I'll come across like a photograph or a song or a book and that kind of becomes like a little bit of a touchstone that I always keep going back to to kind of remember like maybe the feeling that I'm trying to evoke. Was there anything like that uh for you writing this book or this series?

[00:32:26]>> Sure. So, I already mentioned the Radian Girls um thing. I also I read a lot of non-fiction and a lot of history. And so, I'm always finding little bits of um either like gaps in history or religions or something. I'm like, "Oh, there's a story right there." And so, that's what the like it wasn't the posters of Paris exhibit. It was the little art that was like poster thieves would run. Actually, you want to hear the story?

[00:32:47]>> Absolutely.

[00:32:49]In the like Luca and um like Tulu slow posters. Um, so those were put up as advertisements, right?

[00:32:57]But then companies would hire artists to do their advertisements. This is like the beginning of the age of advertising.

[00:33:03]And so then people realized like collectors wanted those posters um because artists were making them. And so then they would hire thieves to go scrape the posters off of like the size of buildings in Paris. Um, and there was this whole like thriving black market of posters, which is one reason that they are so like they become art objects now is because they were assigned value by collectors because they were made by artists and then they were permines and then eventually um, you know, they were sold >> like they were reproduced or the artist reproducing. So like they were just assets basically then became art objects and so there's that gap in like history, right? who are those poster things and what did they have to do to get it and they were being pursued by law and you know the law as they were scrubbing it out so I also um just little bits of things there wasn't necessarily a tibbit for heist because again you have the momentum of the series and my character stranded there are a lot of little details in there though that came from things like that like the um I'll just say the three sisters at the end came a little like I was listen to a podcast of Greek mythology some things that like made me go, "Oh, that would be a cool way to connect this." Again, I'm not gonna spoil the thriller, but sisters, >> um, so that was sort of a bit of inspiration. Um, but there's not as much in this because it's not directly tied to like our world or history and things, but yeah, I'm always jotting things down from nonfiction. I'm read I just read a great book uh called the scholars. It's called a book and dagger. It's about the librarians and scholars that formed the OSS. Yeah, it's great. It's a little like a little slow at the beginning, but then it so we went to universities like Harvard and Yale to recruit for the OSS because there was no intelligence service, right? Um, and so you have all these people who are really, really good at research or have connections in academic units all over the world who are actually perfectly positioned to go, I don't know, to Sweden and request engineering journals that might have specs on things that the world just interesting stuff. So, I don't know if there's a story there, nor do I know if I have [laughter] any. I think that's so interesting. They have a librarian who becomes a spy, maybe a kids program or something. That's how I do it.

[00:35:24]That's so cool. I always love kind of like the, you know, it's like if I were standing next to you at that poster exhibit, I probably would have read the placard and just been like poster thieves, huh? And like kept walking and it's just so funny kind of like the things that sort of sit in your brain and turn into, you know, kind of crazy cool fun. I would never think of the rest of you like the quintessential American [laughter] experience and the only thing that we have now.

[00:35:54]But it is interesting. I think that's where like that's what artists do, right? Is you take something bullet and then >> Well, since we're kind of talking about books and inspiring books and we're going to get to your guys Q&A questions very shortly. So, start picking up some good ones.

[00:36:11]>> Good question. Um, was there a introduction to the world of fantasy, a book that you might have read or a movie or something [clears throat] like that that was kind of, you know, like I I listen to the last culture was podcast. I don't know if you're aware of it. So, they have this great question they always ask their guest, what was the culture that made you say culture is for you? And so, what is the book that made you say or the fantasy book that made you say fantasy is for me? It doesn't have to be books. Yeah, I read a lot of fantasies as a kid, but I think the one that feels the most for this question, my grandmother um lived in Pittsburgh and I my oldest 10 kids and she lived alone and my parents were just dropping it off at her house in the summer [laughter] and sometimes my sister was there, sometimes not. She didn't have air conditioning, like she didn't drive, but she had books. She was a librarian. So she had Pton walls and then she had this one book of Sher Temple fairy stories um that I loved and I read it like over and over and over on those long summers and then every time we visit her house um and so that was like a formative book for me like I re one of the earliest books I wrote was a retelling of the wild swans like basically based on that um that book's version which do was on TV like getting like a um it's like Shirley Temple or something. So, she would read to children and then I think this fairy tale book came out of it.

[00:37:35]>> I don't know. I didn't know that at the time. I just thought it was great. Um, so I read that very early formatively and then I read a lot of like my life at school had like fairy tales from around the world and I went to those over and over and over. Um, and then I read a lot of Mercedes Lackey and other fantasy books as a teen. Um, so that's my that's the petri dish.

[00:37:59]All >> [laughter] >> right. So, we're gonna turn it over to you guys. I think Celeste is going to help facilitate.

[00:38:09]>> Yeah.

[00:38:09]>> Uh, whoever wants to start, raise your hand.

[00:38:13]>> Don't be shy.

[00:38:17][laughter] >> Hello. Um, I'm wondering kind of in the same vein as uh the beautiful like cover detail of the wings that you then had to figure out how to get into the book. Um, is there a romance trope that you really really love and you had to kind of figure out a way to work it into this story because you just wanted it to be there?

[00:38:38]>> Yeah. So, I was on a panel at Y West about tropes and um I do firmly believe that tropes are useful. I think they're shorthand for what we put into things. I think they're in books even before you had to talk about them as tropes, but this book has a little bit [laughter] not because it's spicy at all. It's just because they end up there and that's what their attic group has. Um, but that kind of made me laugh to put that in.

[00:39:04]Um, I really did want a slow slow burn though. I mean, like I said, it wasn't intentional, but by the time I figured out that's what they were doing, but I've seen reviews that are very mad because they kiss off page the very beginning. like they make a terrible mistake and there's summer wine involved but like you can't be single women unless you know they're not but I think you can and I think it's interesting tropes and I think it's good to push push them a little um yeah so the bed one was really I think probably the one I was like let's just sneak that in there because I like that um or force proximity kind of thing Other questions?

[00:39:45]>> I'll warn you. I start asking the audience questions.

[00:39:51]>> I'm an English teacher about your age, so I know how to deal with it in the quiet room with these questions.

[00:39:58]>> I mean, I'll ask, what about uh single point of view romances? Do you all like those or do you prefer the dual point of view where you know what both characters are thinking?

[00:40:11]>> [laughter] >> I will say I like a single point of view because I think part of the fun for me of romance is go over here. Um part of the fun for me with romance is not knowing what the other person is thinking. I mean I think it depends but I think there's a certain like >> you know leaving that mystery not knowing what they're thinking. Um but I do think it depends. It's easy to do a miscommunication trip if you only know one point of view. I think it holds up better. It's not like you have all the interiority of the other person. Just talk to me just >> No, I'm a you if you have a sing a single point of view, it's it's a horror novel at that point because you're it's a [laughter] it's a you're you're dealing entirely with an unreliable narrator like in entirely in a delusional person's mind.

[00:41:04]>> [laughter] >> That's all romance is delusion.

[00:41:08]>> Yeah, but like at least with the dual point of view, you at least are in someone else's delusion. [laughter] >> I see your night circus shirt and I will say that the night circus was a big inspiration for aquarium. I finished that book on like a snowy New Year's Eve in Wisconsin. I was like, I want to write a book that makes somebody else feel like that would make me feel that's a dual point of view for sure.

[00:41:28]>> And it's it's gorgeous vibes, those beautiful vibes. [laughter] questions, anybody?

[00:41:44]>> Great.

[00:41:45]>> I don't know. I guess >> these ones are so gorgeous. Do you have any recommendations for books you would enjoy that are similar to? [laughter] the western and the fairies.

[00:42:09]>> They ride dragon.

[00:42:11]>> We were just talking about that something [laughter] >> question. Um, so are you specifically looking for YA or is adults recommendation >> either or?

[00:42:32]>> Okay, I recommend HG Perry to everyone I meet. Um, it's an adult fantasy author who I think is doing some of the most interesting work in the fantasy space right now. Uh, my favorite is the scholar and the last fairy doorb it's like post World War I um very hard type.

[00:42:49]Well, it's more Oxford type. Um, but then fairies were involved in the World War um and our main character is a female scholar. Um kind of like Emily Wild. Um but uh it's a little darker.

[00:43:04]There's family, there's curses, and the um the fay in in that book and in her other books are much more otherworldly.

[00:43:11]Like they're not like charming courtly gentlemen that you would like enjoy spending time with. They are very um so that's one I love. And she has several other standalone favorites. They're wonderful. Um, I loved the everlasting battle. Anything Alexi Haro writes, I really enjoy. Um, I don't know if those feel like my books, but they're great.

[00:43:35]Um, other things that feel like these, well, if you read adults, Becca and I have a series [laughter] of one's called Magic, the other one's called Home Word for Spell, and it comes out in August. So, those are Dn D based, well, not based, but inspired. Um, so it's magic, it's cozy, it's queer. Like, um, yeah, those are some of my like always recommendations.

[00:44:02]Have any other like always recommendations stuff?

[00:44:06]>> Um, there are a lot of books that I recommend to everybody to read all the time, but they're um not very fantasy books, but I'm just gonna say it because somebody asked me and I want everyone to read these books. If you have not read the Jackie Faber series, rectify that immediately. It is they are 12 books. What is Jackie Faber? These are older books. I think they came out in the early 2000sish.

[00:44:37]They're historical fiction. They're about a girl who dresses up as like a boy and she becomes like a ship's boy or something like that. That's like the worst description ever. All you have to know is like these books are just like when I have like the the idea in my mind of like a book that when you're a kid you just adore they are the Jackie Faber books and every time I read it it just makes me feel the way I felt when I was like 13 and just love to read which I feel like as an adult that like that's the feeling that I'm so often chasing which is maybe why I write ya Just that feeling of like you just have to turn the pages as fast as possible. I love those books. They are an absolute delight. Find them, pick them up. 12 books. This guy wrote 12 books and then he immediately died. [laughter] Like they're great. They like they're fabulous. They're so fun. So definitely I those are the books that I shove on everybody. I would also recommend The Night Circus that um and I just started The Unicorn Hunter by Catherine Harden. I really like what Catherine Harden does in that like if you just want a book that feels you're so immediately immersed in magic.

[00:45:55]Um yeah, I'm like 13 or 12.

[00:45:59]>> 12. 12. 12.

[00:46:01]>> No. 13.

[00:46:02]>> No. No. 13.

[00:46:04]>> He died.

[00:46:04]>> He died. Yeah, he died. Yes.

[00:46:07]>> Um and you're gonna write your full name down for me when we're done. Any [laughter] final questions? We're also going to do a Oh, here we go.

[00:46:23]>> Are there any things about the FA or the FA world that you really really love or enjoy?

[00:46:29]>> Oh, good question. Um, well, like I said, I do love that it's full of wonder and um enchantment and anything could basically happen. Um, but I I also like It's dangerous Jurassic Park. We talked about that panel. You have a parenting job.

[00:46:46]>> That's my child. [laughter] >> The premise of that is that there's a theme park where they bring back dinosaurs, right? Which sounds like a really great idea until it's not. Um, for many reasons. And so I I do think Bayon is magical and full of possibility, but also wouldn't said not great to be there. I also really like just all the little like little guys and gnomes and um things that exist in Fay like tiny dragons and I am a big fan of like cute whimsical things and I think that realm really gives you the opportunity to do that. So what about you? Is there anything you like in the room >> in this one or any real I guess?

[00:47:31]>> I really like what you said about the magic and enchantments.

[00:47:35]>> Yeah.

[00:47:39]answer. Yeah. I think there's just I don't know. I like the one that even though she hates it, I think [laughter] >> any last questions before we go to signing.

[00:47:54]Okay, we're going to have a signing line so you can ask your most pressing questions.

[00:47:58]>> You can just um >> Yeah. Um well, thank you all. You've been such an amazing audience. So many great questions and thank you so so much to Jenny Paxton and Kendall Culbert.

[00:48:11]This was such a great conversation just like two friends chatting about books is my favorite. Um, so we have books for sale um at that register