Former CIA Chief Of Bin Laden Unit Exposes What's Really Happening To America.

Added: 2026-06-01

[00:00:00]The Israel problem is our problem. We caused it. We take their money. We take their guff. We take their uh you know bleeding appeals for help because they're a little country in a big bad world and the problem has to be solved by us.

[00:00:17]>> Welcome to the tea. I'm your host Miriam Foswa.

[00:00:21]Imperial hubris. It's a term that describes the fatal arrogance of empires. the refusal to grapple with the complexities of the societies they seek to dominate. It's also the title of a book written over 20 years ago by today's guest. At the time, he was still deep inside the CIA, heading the very unit responsible for tracking America's then most wanted man, Osama bin Laden.

[00:00:47]But two decades on, now with the Middle East ablaze once again, Latin America in chaos, and an endless Iran war, that warning feels prophetic. Is America still mistaking force for strategy? It's worth recalling that when President Bush invaded Iraq, his then defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, speculated the war would be over in a matter of weeks. He was wrong. Almost nine years, thousands of US lives, and roughly a million Iraqi deaths later, the region is still reeling from the chaos that the invasion unleashed. And yet, was anything learned? The delusions of what military force can achieve haven't disappeared. President Trump famously promised this war on Iran would last four weeks or less. Now over two months in, with the global economy in a choke hold and predictions of famine and recession looming, the exit strategy is a ghost. My guest today is Michael Shyer. He's a 22-year CIA veteran who originally published Imperial Hubris anonymously while still an active duty officer. He's taught at Georgetown University and served as a senior fellow at the Jamestown Foundation. From inside the belly of the beast, he's been a relentless critic of interventionism, but he's also garnered his fair share of controversy, not least over his comments on political violence against enemies and his view that Israel is the primary driver of US foreign policy today. So, I want to explore how he reads the present moment. Is Iran another Iraq in the making? Who actually benefits from this trajectory? And who is driving it? And is it possible that American imperial hubris is still its own blind spot?

[00:02:36]Michael Shyer, welcome to the show.

[00:02:38]>> It's my pleasure. Thank you.

[00:02:40]>> Well, let let's start right at the beginning, shall we? So, you studied history at university. You went on to do a PhD on the British Empire. Was that a natural pathway for you to then join the CIA? And what was it that drew you to the organization in the first place?

[00:02:56]>> I needed a job, man. I was uh in Buffalo, New York, where I was born and raised. And I was working at uh on the third shift as a kind of a crane operator. Uh and the third shift is very cold in Buffalo in the winter. And I got a uh notification from the American Historical Association that the uh agency was hiring people in one of the sectors they would hire from would be historians.

[00:03:21]So I had I had no intention of that. Uh it it was a lucky find for me. and I went and I stayed 23 years.

[00:03:29]>> You stayed for 23 years. What did you like about working inside the CIA?

[00:03:34]>> Well, I liked uh I like the people I worked with. I thought we could do uh things that were important to America.

[00:03:42]Um I enjoyed the the information that you were accessed to and and uh understanding better how the world worked and how different people thought.

[00:03:52]So I was happy to be there. I got rooted there and um we had a couple of children and and uh that's why I stayed.

[00:04:00]>> How different is life for an ordinary citizen compared to somebody working within the CIA?

[00:04:07]>> Well, I think it's it's different depending on what you do at the agency.

[00:04:10]If you're an analyst, if you're a operations officer, if you are a agent overseas, everything is different. But the security is the big thing. you're always very conscious of uh you know things that other people don't know and shouldn't know and could endanger the United States or its allies if they did become known. So, it's a it's something that's always on your mind and you're you're careful. Uh I I don't think I would say it was terribly ownorous, but it's something that's constantly a new agent in your mind. Uh can I do this?

[00:04:40]Can I be introduce myself here? Uh should I go to that uh movie or something like that? That's just a bunch of things that uh you're very conscious of all the time and and uh being polygraphed every couple years is a a good reminder of of uh your jobs.

[00:04:58]>> So what kind of stuff did you not do while you were a CIA agent that you now do do?

[00:05:04]>> Mostly tell people where I work. Um certainly uh the ability to talk about some of the things I did there became possible because of all the information that was published after 9/11.

[00:05:19]Uh and it went from the uh security side of things to just uh more open source material. And that was one thing I I was astounded to find uh as I worked there over the years is that how important um open- source material is for uh doing your work. I wrote four books on Bin Laden and they were basically based on information that was available in the public uh domain.

[00:05:48]>> Now some people might say once CIA always CIA. Um, you left 20 years ago, but does anyone actually ever really leave the CIA?

[00:06:02]>> Well, they were pretty glad to see me go. Uh, so they haven't bothered me very much. Um, I've not been back in the building since the day I walked out.

[00:06:11]I've not talked to anyone.

[00:06:13]Um, no one has called me >> and and I gather that all former CIA officers are required to submit intended materials for public release, whether it's books, articles, or speeches for pre-ublication review to ensure there's sort of no classified information disclosed. I mean, do you still have to run your content by them before you publish anything?

[00:06:34]>> Yeah, all of my books have been run through them, and I'll run this one through them again. Yes.

[00:06:39]>> Interesting. you were very active um in the media in the early sort of post 911 uh years following your resignation from the CIA. Then you went quiet for a while and now you're sort of back on the speaking circuit. You've got your own podcast. What's motivated this return to the public arena?

[00:06:58]>> One thing that has helped is the general turning of America against the Israelis.

[00:07:02]I I lost three or four jobs after I left the agency because I was critical of of the Israelis. And uh uh it's become more a obvious that people who were like me who were really hesitant about turning the conduct of our foreign policy in the Middle East over to the Israelis whims was correct.

[00:07:25]and uh uh but along the way until until the recent last year, year and a half um until the recent activities that was kind of a kiss of death.

[00:07:34]>> Well, a former colleagueu of yours in the CIA, one former officer who specialized in Middle Eastern liaison said no other country is as aggressively close to the Israelis as America. He's talking they work to become intimate and that makes a difference. You obviously spent 22 years, 23 years I think you just said in the CIA. Can you tell us a little bit about the evolution of the US relationship with Israel when it comes specifically to the secret services? I mean, how central was Mossad to the work of the CIA when you were there and how did that evolve over the course of your career? I tried to work on things where neither the Israelis or the Saudis would be very active because they had such power in the government that even if you had a piece of information that was uh very important and very important to keep secret if you denied them the information they would go to the White House immediately and the whoever was president of the day would come back and say share the information.

[00:08:39]So uh I tried to steer clear of them. I was the chief of operations against Osama bin Laden for four years and uh never we got one piece of information from them over that entire period and it w it involved a uh situation that appeared to be dangerous to life and we asked for their permission uh to use it and they denied it. I used it anyway. And uh I tried to steer clear of them because the I they weren't there to to uh only to get information. They were there to tell us uh what information they wanted and how we should get it and we should give it to them immediately. Uh and I kind of just as an American I resented it. But over the years when it became so apparent that every agency, a security agency and probably the military and no less about that were under the thumb of the Israelis in a sense. And uh how how does it happen? It happens because they bribe everyone. They own the Congress. All only one person in the Congress doesn't take money from them from their IPAC or their other organizations. You can see when Netanyahu comes to the United States that they they stand up like seals in the Congress at a when he speaks to a joint session. Anybody who could put uh Netanyahu in the same category as somebody like Churchill or Solja Nitsson is is got to be an idiot.

[00:10:09]So both embarrassing and and obviously a huge security risk to let them into the building. And and in terms of the evolution, I mean, did you see your you know, you're talking about this sort of hold that you said you saw even early on in your career. I mean, did you see that hold get more intense or was this just not somewhere that you were working on?

[00:10:31]>> It was generally I I was not in an area where I was dealing with the Israelis with any regularity. Unfortunately, we learned our anti-terrorism uh schooling came from the Israelis and so we misplaced uh a lot of um our efforts on going after the same targets that they want wanted to go after.

[00:10:53]Generally speaking, if we weren't intervening in their affair or to help them in their affairs, we would not have become the targets we are for Iran or for Osama bin Laden or for Hisbala.

[00:11:04]Um, that was one of the costs of being under the thumb.

[00:11:08]>> Well, we we're talking at a time where there's been a resurgence of a lot of 9/11 conspiracy theories, some of which actually do involve the Israelis. Um, others sort of, you know, refer to things like the uh buildings being rigged. But of course, the the Israeli involvement has been all all over social media or the alleged Israeli involvement. Another was that Bin Laden was in fact a CIA asset. I mean, you were obviously running the unit that was going after him at the time. Uh, what's your thoughts today on what happened on 9/11?

[00:11:42]>> Uh, 9/11 happened because we didn't kill Bin Laden and we had 10 opportunities just under Clinton and my successors provided Bush with a couple of opportunities and Bush couldn't have been less interested. As far as I understand, we had a a very good hold on Bin Laden 10 times and with the power of the American military uh they could have taken him out and they decided not to. And I think there is a lot of story in that and I don't know the story. Uh the one thing you learn at the agency very quickly is you don't know what you don't know and even when you should know it, you don't know it. I mean, obviously, there are huge question marks over why uh then President Bush, who would have had the opportunity uh to get America's most wanted man, would not have proceeded with that.

[00:12:28]>> To be fair to Bush, he didn't have as many chances. But Clinton had no possible reason not to give it a crack.

[00:12:35]They always operate, you know, when you take a a planned operation to the to the seventh floor, which is our the big guys sit on the seventh floor, the question always comes up first, well, what if we try it and it doesn't work? Uh, what are the Washington Post going to say? What is the New York Times going to say? And it's never about what if we don't do this and Americans get killed. It's a very strange thought process that I experienced. But what really began to change my mind was the collapse of this the building 7 long after the planes and it just collapsed like it was I don't know if you've seen them but when they destroy stadium sports stadiums in this country they always put it on the videos and you it just collapses very elegantly really there's no spewing of uh rocks or concrete and that's just the way that building went down and it's hard to not believe that it was uh loaded with some kind of material that caused that >> which of course is what uh hundreds of architects got together and argued uh in the article. Absolutely. Right.

[00:13:39]>> Um so let me ask you this. In your book uh Imperial Hubris you talk about the cost of US leaders arrogance and reluctance to sort of consider the impact of US behavior abroad. uh 22 years on from you publishing that book.

[00:13:57]What lessons has America failed to learn?

[00:14:00]>> Basically uh all of them they operate from uh I call it they're in the cult of World War II. They still think it's 1945 in in uh Tokyo Bay and they we hold the same power and the same respect as that happens.

[00:14:17]And it's an very unusual thing for people to be so um full of arrogance and hubris when we've lost every war we fought since 1945. And I don't know what we're certainly not winning in in Iran at the moment. So it's very very difficult. Uh I I I would doubt that there was any discussion before the Iran attack about what the people of Iran thought about Iran or Persia. For some reason, they thought that they they they would if we went there, they would come out and cheer and throw flowers at us and things. The same deal we heard about how the Iraqis were going to re uh respond.

[00:14:55]And we're a 250y old uh country this year and we're taking on a 2,700 year old country. And you'd have to be a simpleton to believe they they'd be out in the streets welcoming welcoming us like the French did in 1944 or 45. It's almost like it's an illness that you either don't care or you don't want to take the time to understand how Iranians, how Afghans, how Iraqis think. They don't think like us because they don't have our experience and we don't think like they do. I think probably because we don't have that much history. But also our education system is is clearly not up to par in terms of preparing our children in terms of uh foreign countries and how different people think and if they think differently than we do, it doesn't mean they're the enemy. So it's a very distressing thing. Trump Trump talked a good game and when he turned in when he became president again, he became a warlord. uh which I I suppose is irresistible to a man or a woman. Uh I if if they can do everything off their own hook, it's a lot easier than trying to deal with uh other people.

[00:16:04]But that's that remains our ignorance of the world is staggering.

[00:16:09]>> You've argued that the US was losing the war on terror due to its inability to interpret the enemy's motivations correctly. What would you say to your fellow Americans about what they're getting wrong today about whether it's Iran, the Houthis, Hezbollah, or Hams?

[00:16:26]What they're getting wrong is the the the education that they received through high school, as I did, or through grammar school in high school, the the grounding education they got with the World War II films of of uh the concentration camps in the Holocaust.

[00:16:42]From the time I was seven or eight years old, once a year or twice a year, you you have to sit and watch those. My generation got uh educated, if you will, on what happened in World War II. And you know, once you see one film, you pretty much cons can can uh uh say, "Yeah, it was a bad thing. Shouldn't happen again." But does that mean we sacrifice our country for somebody else?

[00:17:04]And I think that's what's happened here.

[00:17:06]The Holocaust was terrible thing. The the amount of people the Japanese killed was a terrible thing. But people we've killed in a way in in foreign wars that we didn't win and really didn't need to fight. You know, we're at a point in the United States where no one since 1945, no military person has died for to protect the liberty of our country, which is uh about the only reason there is to fight if you're you're a member of the United States population. You know, you go through the list and uh how were how were we really um threatened by uh all the people Noriega? We invaded Panama. And there's no reason to believe really at this point in time that uh we're going to win any serious war because we think we're always the biggest guy in the block. It's going to be a walk over and people will love us.

[00:17:58]If you listen to Mr. Trump. If you listen to most presidents since the since Truman took the money from the Israelis to run the 1948 election, um it sounds like our liberty, our freedom depend on the existence of Israel and the existence of a powerful Israel. Now, of course, there's not a lick of truth in that, but it's it's everyday belief here in America. We have 20 million evangelists who think that Israel is more important than our country. So, it's a they use the word again, it's a staggering problem to overcome. Much of it has to do with education. Much of it has to do with what is criminal uh uh operations by the Israelis and the unwillingness of our our government to enforce the laws they apply to everyone else in the world to the Israelis. So, we're in a pickle.

[00:18:47]>> Well, speaking of pickles, in 2016, you did express your support for Trump's election at the time. What was it that originally drew you to?

[00:18:56]>> I would vote for him again.

[00:18:58]>> You would? Okay. So, do you you still consider yourself a MAGA supporter today?

[00:19:02]>> No, I don't consider myself a VGA supporter at all. I I am a I've been a Republican all my life. But that's not the problem. The problem is America's enemy is in this country. It's not not just the illegal aliens. It's the Democratic party. They always argue that, well, violence comes from both sides. Well, the only violence we've seen in the last uh in the two Trump administrations came from the Democrats.

[00:19:22]What about the January 6th insurrection which you know was you know for all intents and purposes >> which was set up by the government ma'am >> which is a republican government >> no was set up by the internal part of the government they threw people in jail and people are still in jail with no trial.

[00:19:39]>> Well >> it's like keeping all those uh uh Arabs in in in in Guantanamo for what now 30 years almost without a trial. I mean, weren't you and weren't you one of the key architects of the rendition program?

[00:19:52]>> Yes, I was.

[00:19:53]>> And didn't the rendition program basically turn out to be detaining, you know, a majority of people who were unlawfully detained, who were never actually prosecuted for any crimes?

[00:20:05]>> Well, they weren't unlawfully detained.

[00:20:07]They were detained because we didn't kill them. And I I was in favor of killing the enemy on the field, but that was uh not they didn't want any more bad publicity than they got. and they got a lot now, but it was a war. Why do you want to try them?

[00:20:21]Many of them we caught in circumstances where our officers were or our allies officers were in just as much danger as they were.

[00:20:30]>> Well, why would you want to try them?

[00:20:31]Because many of them ended up being released without any charges brought against them, which suggests that they weren't actually engaged in any criminal activity. Well, I have to say, ma'am, that you have to experience being ruled by the United States government to understand the depth of the deceit of the American people. Uh, but certainly the idea that even an assassin or or a terrorist or a Nazi, if you arrest him and begin a legal legal process, you should complete it. And whatever the end of the story brings, it brings. But I I'm I'm afraid they didn't think it through and they're now afraid to prosecute and hang them, if that's the decision, because it'll offend the rest of the world. You know, for for a um country that is so eager to wage war, our leadership doesn't want to really piss anyone off and they somehow don't get the the message that most of the things we do do really anger people. And it's based not on intention. It's based on ignorance. We've had most of our presidents have gone to the Ivy League since 1945 and and they've been dumb as rocks.

[00:21:49]>> Let me roll back to Trump just briefly because obviously what you said there was interesting. So So you you're very critical of Trump, but you would vote for him again purely to keep the Democrats out of power. So what's your main criticism of Trump then?

[00:22:02]>> He he lies. pretty big one.

[00:22:04]>> He was a I I voted for him both times because he he uh promised to not go to war for useless things unless we were attacked. He went to war in Iraq because the Israelis convinced them Israel was in danger >> in Iran.

[00:22:18]>> In Iran, I'm sorry. Well, Iraq was as much a Israeli uh effort too. Saddam was the big nuclear threat at that time.

[00:22:26]>> So, I mean, is your issue that Trump's war on Iran is is kind of unconstitutional? I understand that you think that it's been brought by a foreign power, but just outline for me what exactly it is about the war in Iran that you oppose.

[00:22:41]>> It's unconstitutional.

[00:22:43]Every war since 1945 has been unconstitutional.

[00:22:47]And to to talk about American virtues in terms of respect for the law and abidance by the law and and other things is uh a farce. The Constitution is is much talked about and and jabbered about and very little read and certainly very under misinterpreted. The founders, if you will, were were most proud of the fact that they tied the president in knots when it came to war.

[00:23:16]There only only the representatives of the people in both houses of Congress could declare war. But since the Mexican war, it's more often been the president who has uh decided off his own hook that they were going to get Americans killed doing something in Mexico or doing something in elsewhere in the Caribbean or in Africa or some other place. And it's kind of the definition of that is tyranny.

[00:23:40]>> You've definitely used that term. Uh you've said we we have to decide whether we are a constitutional republic or a tyranny because at the moment we're a tyranny. So what exactly makes America today a tyranny in your eyes?

[00:23:54]>> What made Britain a ty tyranny? Uh when the king could declare go to war uh without much approval from anyone.

[00:24:02]That's what we have here. what we rebelled against we have here. And we we seem to Americans seem to miss the point that the greatest gutting of liberty in a country is the responsibility of one man to take your kids to war. There must be something so intoxicating about becoming president that you have so much power you want more. That's my my position is entirely uh constitutional.

[00:24:32]If there are enemies of the United States and we have to defend ourselves, that's fine.

[00:24:36]>> But Trump's war in Iran isn't the only unconstitutional thing he's done, right?

[00:24:40]I mean, after his second term, he tried to scrap birthright citizenship, violating the 14th amendment. He froze congressional approved spending. And in May 2025, he moved to cut or block federal public broadcaster funding, which is a violation of the First Amendment. Do you also take issue with these other violations? Would it be a a violation of the First Amendment to deny funding? You shut something down. You know, businesses close all the time.

[00:25:08]Operations of the government sometimes are are defunded. And the the public broadcasting has been a uh scourge to the United States outside of the mysteries and other things they import from Britain. Otherwise, they're on they're on the TV to to talk down America to um make sure that people think that everything is bad here.

[00:25:33]Constitution doesn't give any power to the to the federal government to support media.

[00:25:40]Media should operate off their own hook.

[00:25:42]No matter if it's Fox News or if it's uh national public radio. I mean the public broadcasting is the idea that every citizen should be represented in the production of media and that actually when you go into privatized media then essentially you just have the propagation of like the views of a few wealthy people who can you know fund Fox News or whatever else it is that they want to do. So I mean there is a sort of uh I would argue a civic aspect to public broadcasting however critical we may be of its output uh that surely is about you know fundamental uh American values about ensuring that all citizens have a right to be heard and seen in the media space. I would kind of defy you a little bit, ma'am, if you watch their news programs define someone who is uh uh uh uh conservative. Does National Public Radio give it access to all? Uh the answer is no. Very very few people.

[00:26:42]And it's it's gotten worse in the last 20 years. But I think it's it's I think if it was a a a normal media outlet or what should be a normal media outlet and presented both sides, that's one story.

[00:26:55]But any media you put in charge of the government is then indebted to them just as Fox is indebted to rich donors. It's a dangerous combination. I and I understand there's people dis dissatisfied in Britain with the BBC or with German television in Germany or Of course there is. Yeah.

[00:27:14]>> I'm I'm for the I'm for the government staying away from media.

[00:27:18]>> Well, I think most people are. I mean, in Britain, we have the a slightly different concept. I mean, this is what public broadcasting is really meant to be about. The idea that you pay a tax into a sort of pot of money that is separate to the government's purview.

[00:27:34]Um, and the mandate of that money is to serve and represent uh Britain's in all their diversity. Look, whether they do that well or not is a different question. But I think the point that I made was more about the fact that you take issue with Trump, you know, uh, sort of violating the Constitution when it comes to Iran. And I'm just curious as to whether you feel that way about other violations of the Constitution that people might point to, um, you know, as I said, you know, birthright, the attempt to scrap birthright, um, or the the sort of freezing of congressional, >> the birthright citizenship was for the children of slaves.

[00:28:11]If you if you read the context in which the 14th amendment was written, it was not permanent. What it was is was to cover the children and make sure just as their parents that they were uh US citizens after emancipation and that's been hanging around. It's now it's used to flood the country with people coming here to have children so they get get an anchor here. There is a problem with it. You know, I don't want to hurt anybody with the kind of the exception of the Boston Red Sox, but it always struck me when Mrs. Clinton was running about the glories of diversity.

[00:28:45]What does diversity do but create more problems? I would think what I've seen in the streets of London over the past uh six months and what I've seen in the United States over over half of my life is that the more diverse you are, the more violence you have, the more political issues you have, the more money you spend uh to the point of bankruptcy. There are two parts to every story and I admit it. People can argue me to death probably. I'm not that conversant in these things, but the problems caused by them are very apparent even to a dummy like me.

[00:29:20]>> I'm curious who the them is there. And I also do just have to correct that there has not been violence in the streets of London uh apart from some far right uh hooligans. I thought I saw >> tell me >> videos where there were large numbers of farmers driving tractors and through the streets and uh people going to hospitals and and uh you breaking breaking into hospitals and doctors have to having to hide.

[00:29:46]>> I live in London. I've lived in London all of my life. I can't recollect anything of the nature that you're talking about. Certainly as a London I can tell you where >> Well, then somebody's doing a job on your country now.

[00:29:57]>> Well, that is well true, sir. I would I think we can agree that there is a great amount of attempt to uh create propaganda around the idea that we in the UK are sort of swarming with too many you know brown and black people who are causing problems. And I can tell you that the reality of that picture is very very far removed from what I see uh certainly rolling on social media. But let me talk to you a little bit about um this idea of tyranny which we touched on a minute a minute ago. You know, you talk about the idea that the country is is now, you know, under the a form of tyranny, but you've also said that you would really vote for Trump again just to keep the Democrats out of power. But last year, Bernie Sanders said the accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny. Don't you agree with Bernie Sanders then on this issue?

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[00:31:16]>> If it happened, it probably would be.

[00:31:18]Yes, I I would agree with that. But who is at fault for that accumulation? The fault lies in the Senate and in the Congress for giving the president powers they're not eligible to delegate. And if he he breaks the Constitution, as he does on every war, our presidents, why haven't they challenged it? They don't give a damn. Sanders rather taking a chance to take a shot at Trump. You know, who got us into this nonsense war in in Ukraine? What possible uh interest did we have in Ukraine?

[00:31:51]uh none. And yet Trump promised to end that war and he stayed he's still in it to this day as far as I know >> for now. Yes.

[00:32:00]>> What's the point?

[00:32:01]>> We're seeing a wave of people on the right pushing back against the war on Iran. Uh specifically in the independent media, Tucker Carlson, Megan Kelly, you obviously you yourself despite being a Trump supporter of have criticized this.

[00:32:14]What is fueling to your mind this shift on the American right towards opposing the war in Iran specifically?

[00:32:23]>> Experience would be the first thing.

[00:32:26]We've those of us of my age, we've watched this since uh Vietnam, but I think on on this one in particular, Trump is the problem. He promised no more wars and long-term foolish wars unless we were attacked.

[00:32:41]And that was a very clear promise which people voted on. But if if you have to come down to it to vote for gangsters like the Democrats over a man who at least is we've got tax breaks this year. We've got a bunch of other things that have come around at long last. What are you going to do?

[00:33:02]Your choice is to vote or not to vote at all. That's just where we are now. But I've never voted in my life for a Democrat. I I guess I'm I'm just wondering uh when you say uh you know that that they're gangsters that we could also right now be looking at the Trump dynasty if I may who arguably are enriching themselves very much in the style of gangsters whether it's Jared Kushner where whether it's Baron uh they are making millions uh off the back of their proximity to power and this war I I mean, is that not gangster behavior?

[00:33:41]Is, you know, not >> sure it is. It's absolutely gangsterism.

[00:33:46]Without a doubt, it's gangsterism.

[00:33:48]>> But you're then you're supporting the gangster in power.

[00:33:51]>> Better the gangster, you know.

[00:33:54]>> Okay.

[00:33:55]>> You know, they're going to prove that they threw the the the 2020 election.

[00:33:58]They're going to prove that they they they at least he's getting rid of the illegal aliens in this country at a slow rate, but at least nonetheless. Are these really the problem uh in America right now? You're in the middle of a war that is costing average Americans, you know, huge amounts in inflation, the cost of uh you know, petrol at the pump.

[00:34:19]We'll see food inflation. A lot of people around the world are going to suffer because of the decisions being made by President Trump. And at the same time, his family are literally making millions off of this catastrophe in various capacities, as are various companies that he is close to. Where do where does the fixation with illegal immigrants come into this? It isn't it a bit bizarre that that's the focus in the middle of all of this? Doesn't it feel like a distraction?

[00:34:52]>> No, ma'am.

[00:34:53]>> strategy. Oh, I I think what it is is the the Americans are not a sophisticated people in most cases. We are an insular people. We're more concerned what goes on in this country and we we wonder and amazed at the amount of interest that uh the president and the congress has in foreign affairs.

[00:35:15]Um we have the two greatest allies in the world. They're called Pacific and Atlantic.

[00:35:20]And uh as long as we're a nuclear deterrent country as as Russia and China are, we can defend ourselves if we need to. But what interests Americans think, why are we spending money in Ukraine?

[00:35:32]Why are we attacking the Iranians when they don't hadn't attacked us? But you're exactly right. The gangsterism in the government is embedded and deep. You remember that that uh Biden's government was not exactly the tip of genuine patriotism.

[00:35:52]Uh you remember that Bush turned out to be a lunatic at the end and he got he we lost two wars on because of him. But when you have very little to choose from, I think people choose what is most conduc conducive to the way the way of life that they believe in.

[00:36:10]>> So it comes back >> and I believe in no wars. It comes back to your values.

[00:36:14]>> I believe in anybody could come into this country if they came in legally. Uh I believe that that the birthright thing is a farce because it wasn't never intended to go any further than the first generation of uh emancipated slaves.

[00:36:26]>> I mean that's obviously one interpretation. Let me ask you now a little bit more about um about Israel.

[00:36:32]Let me ask you about your position is that essentially America has capitulated to Israel that Israel is now driving US foreign policy. The US provided $3.8 8 billion dollar in annual military aid to Israel on average with a recent surge between October 23 and September 25 when military aid to Israel uh total 21.7 billion dollars not including not including tens of billions more in future arm sales agreements. Now, you've argued that Israel exerts too much power over US policy, but if he wanted to, Trump could just turn off the taps.

[00:37:15]>> That's very true. But the Congress, the president doesn't allocate money. He has to have the Congress's vote, and they're very they're very uh intent on protecting that right. So, the president can't give a million dollars to Israel or a million dollars to anybody else without the uh consent of the Congress.

[00:37:34]And so what you have is senators and congressmen take from the Israelis television here. There's a they keep a chart every month on one of the stations uh showing how much and who is getting the money in Congress from the Israelis.

[00:37:51]Now is it is it a common thing in Britain?

[00:37:55]Maybe it is for the parliament to be on the on the take from foreign countries, maybe European countries or maybe the Israelis themselves. But um it doesn't make it right. Uh and when when five congressmen and senators vote for billions of dollars of Israel, when children uh the number of ill ill-fed children in this country is so large, what kind of idiocy is that?

[00:38:18]>> I'm right in in understanding that the Congress is still majority Republican though, right?

[00:38:22]>> Right now it is.

[00:38:23]>> But generally it's Republican Democrat.

[00:38:25]Yeah. But right now, these decisions are happening under a Republican president with a Republican majority in Congress.

[00:38:33]>> There is no way to get a vote through Congress that cuts aid to Israel, whether we're in the majority or not, because the majority just means it goes to the Senate. And if you pass a bill that that knocks off the deal with Israel, the senators will protect it.

[00:38:49]And there you need a much bigger vote to get it get it through. Can you imagine a a constitutional republic and a Congress that's probably paid more uh through the uh abilities of the Israelis to uh infiltrate and control what they say than they make from the from the the payment for their jobs.

[00:39:13]Man, it's almost like it should be a comedy.

[00:39:17]uh you know uh you know you get your your paycheck every two weeks and but you get another little bonus every every or maybe not a little one but a bonus from the Israelis. Now how do you stop that? The Congress would have to stop it. You'd have to enforce the law.

[00:39:30]There's arguments that uh Bobby Kennedy was killed because um he was going to put IPAC he was going to make them register as a foreign power. JFK he was going to stop them from getting a a nuclear weapon. The one thing you can bet is there there is no block in the Israeli government that will not kill an American if the if the time comes uh to protect their hold on this country.

[00:39:58]>> Now let me ask you this. Professor Norman Finkelstein would say that while the Israel lobby is exceptionally powerful and I think we all agree on that, it's a mistake to blame Israel for the broad trajectory of US foreign policy in the Middle East. He'd say the US and Israeli interests are fundamentally aligned at the elite level and that the US actually uses Israel as a reliable strategic asset to project power. He's also argued that the US doesn't want Israel truly at peace with its neighbors because a peaceful Israel would be less dependent on the US and therefore a less reliable proxy. I mean, what would you say to that?

[00:40:38]>> How many Israelis have been killed fighting for the Americans? none.

[00:40:42]They fight to defend themselves because they've spent 70 or 80 years making enemies in the region. And I think the American people as a whole, if they ever got a chance to vote, would say, "What the hell are you doing in the Middle East? We have all the oil we need. Why are you building 13 bases there?

[00:40:59]>> Why are you >> What's the point of that?" But they never get to do it. And why? Because all of their representatives and all of their senators are on the wagon. they're on the, you know, the Israel wagon >> and and not because the US will benefit from those bases, not because America benefits from these imperial wars.

[00:41:18]>> If we benefit from them and and I have never seen any evidence that we do, uh they bankrupt us. They get our kids killed for no reason. Can you imagine getting your kid killed for Saddam? It's it's kind of like uh you know if you really have to get rid of Saddam, it costs 50 cents for a 50 for a 50 caliber bullet. Kill him. Maybe I've lived too long. But I cannot understand why we need 13 bases in the Middle East and why we helped overthrow Syria to help the Israelis. Why? It's like an unfolding comedy and the the the target of the comedy is us. Well, well, let me ask you this because of course Apac does remain, of course, a formidable force, a formidable force in US politics and much of the debate around American foreign policy tends to focus on Israel uh and its influence uh you know and the broader kind of Jewish American lobby.

[00:42:12]But recent polling suggests a significant portion of Jewish Americans, around 60% don't support Netanyahu's current government. And at the same time the influence of evangelical Christians and Christian Zionists for whom Israel is a central uh you know political and theological issue is often said to be growing substantially. I mean the estimates are of around 30 million Christian Zionists supporters in the US.

[00:42:39]So what would you say to the idea that actually focusing on this sort of Jewish American lobby kind of overlooks the scale and political weight of the Christian Zionist lobby which surely is the main motor here and they are Americans.

[00:42:54]>> Now are they not Americans? How can they be Americans if they support a country that's always at war and dragging us into wars with them and costing us billions and billions of dollars rather that that could be spent at home or god forbid reduce the debt. You can't consider that person an American by any except in in form. He's he's a citizen and you got to respect that and you got to respect his rights or her rights. But to regard them as being um Americans who are reliable in the protection of America is an idiocy. They're a voting block that gets appealed to. And how do you appeal to this voting block? By giving more money to Israel because they have some understanding of the Bible whether it's valid or not that uh as Israel goes so will all Christians. And I don't care about that argument, frankly. All I know is they live here. They benefit from everything that's here. And yet they work to get us more wars in the Middle East.

[00:43:46]>> So, um, Trump's personal, uh, sort of evangelical, uh, preacher, you know, Pete Hexith, uh, you know, Susie Wilds, who's now Donald Trump's new chief of staff, who was part of Benjamin Netanyahu's re-election campaign, not Americans.

[00:44:02]>> I don't regard a aiding a foreign power as a good sign of citizenship. And that's exactly what's going on here. The Congress caters to Israel not only for money but for votes. As you said, 30 million people is a big voting block.

[00:44:18]>> The Christian Zionist block, which is, you know, significantly larger than the number of um Jewish Americans, most of whom, you know, today, the majority of whom today don't actually support Netanyahu's government. So, it's just interesting because, you know, it sounds to me like the fire is within the your house. You know, it's within the Christianamean house and there's a lot of externalizing onto kind of uh you know, the Jewish lobby in America, but you know, where is the sort of attention to the Christians within your own community, many of them Republicans, who are driving this?

[00:44:57]Aren't they the real quote unquote enemy within?

[00:45:02]>> It's almost always the case that the greatest enemy you find about things in your country are in your country.

[00:45:13]And in this case, I would go back to General Washington who said uh at the time of the constitution that he wondered if the republic could exist because of the avarice of American business and Americans generally to make buck to get a business to get ahead. And I think you have to put that into the pot when you talk about these things.

[00:45:37]the avarice of Americans is extraordinary.

[00:45:43]And if you look at the Congress again, uh taking and who else who who who knows what other countries aren't paying them, but if you look at the problem, the Israel problem is our problem. Our problem, we caused it. We take their money. We take their guff. We take their uh you know bleeding appeals for help because they're a little country in a big bad world. It's our this is our problem.

[00:46:12]You're exactly right. And the problem has to be solved by us.

[00:46:18]One way to do that is to let the Israel go off their own hook and see how the Middle East goes. Again, we have this little thing called the Atlantic. But I I agree with you 100% that we are the cause of this problem because we have a a governing class that takes money and depends on it for elections, whatever. I think you're exactly right. And let me ask you about um the the wider uh implications of the sort of non-interventionism of the United States because the former head of Mossad Tamir Pardo has recently compared the actions of Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank to those of Nazis during the Holocaust. I mean those were his own words. If America stopped backing Israel tomorrow, would you still support sanctions against Israel or any form of action to stop the behavior that we've just heard the former head of Mossad describe in those terms?

[00:47:19]>> I'm not in favor of sanctions against most anybody. But from a purely uh intelligence perspective, one of the problems we have with Iran, one of the problems we had with Iraq was that we had sanctions on them and we withdrew our embassies and our presence there.

[00:47:36]And so the sanctions meant to uh hurt Iraq and Iran and they did, but what they did was blind us. Have you thought I maybe you certainly have, but what kind of in an intelligence failure this must be this war given that no one thought that Iran could possibly do what it's doing with missiles. It didn't know they had them. It didn't know they could use them like they are. Now, part of the problem for for that is we haven't had uh an intelligence on the ground capacity to collect intelligence in Iran for how many years? What you do when you put sanctions on a country, especially if you think it's a dangerous country, you what you do is put a pencil in your eyes because you become blind. You can do a lot of things with electronics, you can do a lot of things with satellites, but you can't get the feel of the people. You can't get to to a point where you can recruit somebody to work against their government. It's a disaster. So sanctions are much more than money.

[00:48:34]>> Sure. So park the sanctions idea. My point was obviously more general than that, right? My point to you was even the former head of Mossad is basically saying what the Israelis are doing in Palestine in the West Bank is akin to the Holocaust that the Nazis did in the Second World War. America did intervene because of the Nazis in Europe. Would you support an intervention to stop what this man is himself describing as a holocaust?

[00:49:07]>> No. That's their problem to take care of. I I wouldn't have supported war in Europe in 1945 or 1940. That's your business. That's not our business.

[00:49:16]>> You would have left off to speak German.

[00:49:18]I guess >> what I would have done is I hope I would have been as a British citizen. I would have supported and demanded a rearmament after World War I so we could cope you would cope with that. And I would have found a better man I hope than Chamberlain to to to get you to the to out of the mess. But Europe is not our concern. The only the greatest thing that may come out of this Iran war, the only good thing is complete destruction of NATO.

[00:49:42]>> I mean NATO is obviously part of a wider security apparatus that is supposed to be about kind of guaranteeing mutual defense for allies. Let me ask you in an interview you said the United States existence is dependent on staying out of as many wars as we can. Right? So Iraq and Afghanistan cost the US trillions but defense contractors and war adjacent interests made huge gains. Now with Iran, we're seeing new winners. The politically connected businesses, we already mentioned Eric Trump been awarded a $24 million defense contract.

[00:50:14]Jared's raised 5 billion uh for his private equity fund. The fossil fuel industry is skyrocketing. BP in this country has just announced record profits. So you say war is bad for America, but it's clearly not bad for all Americans.

[00:50:31]>> Clearly not. Isn't And isn't that the problem? And how do you get around that?

[00:50:36]The only possible way we have is is uh through elections or civil war, >> which >> I've seen your I know a lot about the civil war. I'm not eager to see that again. But the reason for the second amendment is not to kill ducks. It's to kill politicians who turn out to be traitors.

[00:50:53]And you always have to keep that on in your mind. And and that's why they want to get rid of the guns. They're afraid of them. They're afraid of Americans standing up and saying, "You've screwed us long enough."

[00:51:05]>> Well, well, I mean, it would be a terrible thing to happen. I don't want to see it.

[00:51:08]>> But that is what's been happening, right? We've just seen another alleged assassination attempt on President Trump at the White House correspondents dinner by a suspect called Thomas Allen, who called himself a friendly federal assassin. It seems that it was his Christian beliefs that was central >> to his manifesto. Well, he was a Christian. He was using biblical arguments to justify violence, right, as a moral duty. You've previously called for political violence against those with opposing views in one of your blog posts. I mean, do you still believe that political violence can be justified against so-called enemies? I mean, isn't that just feeding a terrible cycle of retributive violence that that surely isn't good for anyone?

[00:51:53]>> Well, it it it was certainly good for the North in our civil war. They colonized the South and still keep it colonized. A civil war is just people come to an end of their rope. It's not something you plan in advance for an awful long time. It's something that occurs and there's always something that that strikes us. Lincoln's Lincoln's uh uh election triggered the Civil War, but not for the reason that it was Lincoln and not for the slaves. It had everything to do with economics in the United States and the use of the Constitution in unconstitutional ways. You know, you can never underestimate how much people know about the Constitution in the United States and about how much they know about their rights. The politicians always forget it or don't care or don't think the American people have the guts to do it to do anything. But, you know, time runs out. These people are on a short rope, both Democrats and Republicans, because you you can't afford to feed your kids. You can't afford to you don't have work. And what and and at that and at the same time money's flowing into NATO, money is flowing into Israel, money's flowing into all kinds of activities, you know, protecting birds in Africa for Christ's sake.

[00:53:02]>> Um, most of the foreign aid is has pretty much been cut at this point. Um, economist Steven Keane and others have suggested Trump is using the war to justify a much bigger economic and geopolitical shift away from the old dollar and finance model towards a more direct war and industry model of growth.

[00:53:21]And in that framing, Trump is using the war to push the US economy towards higher oil prices, bigger military spending, and a renewed boost for the military-industrial complex. even if that hurts the average American households. I mean, what's your take on that theory? And is that the basis for an insurrection? Because it sounds like that's close to what this uh shooter was opposing.

[00:53:48]>> Well, yeah, his his manifesto was pretty much the the norm, the kind of if you notice in this country, most of the most of the violence comes from the left. And just because people don't uh complain as much as they should, perhaps they don't demonstrate as much as they should against the kind of criminality that's centered in Washington DC. Doesn't mean the anger isn't there. And you make a good point on uh um the family uh of Trump. I I find it ludicrous that we put up with that kind of thing, but I I'm an old guy. I don't know how to get around it. All you all we all you've got is the vote or the gun and no one wants the gun. But you know you know just look look at Iran. You send to a to a man who re for better or worse represents a country that's 2700 years old and has been you know pushed around by the Israelis now for 80 years or 60 years and you send two Jewish Americans to deal with them. Now, what is the leader of that country going to think? He's going to think that those two guys are going to report to Netanyahu before they report to the president. Right or wrong, I don't know.

[00:55:04]But do you really think that it was a smart thing not to use your diplomatic your senior diplomats to do that? At least to show some respect for the country you were dealing with instead of sending two uh uh peddlers of real estate. I I mean what's confusing of course is that I I mean it sounds to me that that was also a very absurd decision but it was taken by the same man that you say you would vote for again even though he's literally sending his relatives to enrich themselves off the misery of the American people not to mention the people of the region. So I think that's where it doesn't sort of fully stack up. And I do have to say that, you know, the report on uh violence outside of state violence in America, the most recent one, the one that was taken down off the government US government website pointed to farright groups as being the principal source of violence in America, not leftist groups. I mean, that's been pedled by the current administration, but it isn't reflected in the numbers.

[00:56:04]Let me ask you my my final question is about, you know, you placed um considerable hope in President Trump as you know, the man who was going to quote unquote make America great again and he has clearly disappointed significantly.

[00:56:21]Um where do you see hope coming from today? Where is the change that you and many others in America feel is necessary going to come from?

[00:56:36]>> Ma'am, if I knew that answer, I'd probably be worth more than 40 bucks. Uh I I don't know where it's going to come from. Uh after the tragedy of of Trump on the on how he's performed so far, where else do you look? You look into the Congress? I don't think so. The governors don't seem to be a shining process. I don't know what the answer is. I know what I think. I think we're drifting to the point where Americans are going to say, "This isn't working.

[00:57:05]The election's not working. We get a choice of people who get into government and do nothing about what they said they were going to do." And where does that lead? I think it leads to civil war at some point. And like I said, the worst thing in the world is a civil war, especially for my grandchildren. But what do you do? It's always a it's always a case in the United States in my lifetime of picking the lesser of two evils. And the demonstration of what we've learned from Trump's words and his actions is a reminder that we're at the bottom of the barrel. How long can we keep voting for people who don't do what they say they're going to do? Uh do you refrain from voting? No, you can't do that. You got to try. But it increasingly becomes you go to the poll, you vote your vote, and you within uh two weeks after the election, you hear things that were said were never going to happen again. It's a tragedy unfolding. Frankly, one thing we we have to learn is to mind our own businessmen.

[00:58:06]The world is supposed to be an adult place. Let the adults get along with it in their own countries. But I America is in sad shape at the moment.

[00:58:14]>> Michael Shuyer, thank you so much for your time.

[00:58:16]>> Ma'am, it's been my pleasure. I appreciate you asking me >> and thank you so much for watching.

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