Dr. Metin Kayahan Özgül, Ha Bu Diyar Ha O Diyar

[00:00:01]Good evening.

[00:00:06]Welcome to our YouTube channel, "Those Who Add Value to Literature," with Dr. Gökhan Akınbingöl.

[00:00:08]I greet you with my respects.

[00:00:12]We're back with a new program today. Our guest on today's program is our esteemed professor, Dr. Metin Kayahan Özgül.

[00:00:23]She is a faculty member in the Department of Turkish Language and Literature Education at Gazi University.

[00:00:30]First of all, Professor, welcome to our broadcast, it's an honor to have you here. It's a pleasure to meet you, sir.

[00:00:38]They say, "The honor of the place is in the text."

[00:00:39]Yes. I found honor. May you live long.

[00:00:43]Thank you very much. You made us very happy too, Professor.

[00:00:47]Okay, before we start the program, let's also mention our topic.

[00:00:54]Under the title "Whether it's this place or that place," we will be discussing comparative literature.

[00:00:59]Our professor's undergraduate degree is from Hacettepe University, Department of Turkish Language and Literature. She completed her master's and doctoral studies in the Department of Turkish Language and Literature at Gazi University. Uh, my master's thesis is on the concept and structure of Sami Paşazade Sezai's "Little Things". So, your doctoral dissertation is on the Council of Poets, isn't it, Professor?

[00:01:26]I'm not mistaken.

[00:01:27]That's right, that's right.

[00:01:28]Yes. This is based on these two studies. Our esteemed professor, a very important figure in our field, our mentor and elder to all of us.

[00:01:41]He honored us with his presence again today. In that respect, I would like to thank him and also express how happy I am to have collaborated with him on this program.

[00:01:50]Thank you very much, sir. That pleasure is mine.

[00:01:54]Don't be too sweet, I get spoiled easily. That's why [laughs] that's why.

[00:02:00]So I've always been more open to negative criticism.

[00:02:05]Yes, yes. I haven't benefited from the compliments; on the contrary, they've only harmed me by inflating my ego.

[00:02:16]Yes, it's sweet, but it's the kind of thing that puts a strain on your insulin resistance.

[00:02:25]I try not to like them too much. Nevertheless, thank you for your kind words.

[00:02:30]Thank you very much. You are the same way. Dear Professor.

[00:02:37]We will now begin our broadcast, dear viewers.

[00:02:40]Let's talk about our channel, by the way.

[00:02:43]Our channel currently hosts over 20 live broadcasts with our professor. Our professor just asked how many broadcasts we've done. I wasn't entirely sure either, but I told my professor it was over 20. Our teacher said, "Mashallah!" He expressed his thoughts in a way that suggested he would follow them. We have around 10,000, almost 10,000, subscribers. We continue our programs with valuable professors, colleagues, and writers in the field of Modern Turkish Literature. Well, professor, I'd like to start with the following. First, of course, we will discuss the topic of comparative literature.

[00:03:21]What is comparative literature?

[00:03:25]What are its limits? How can we first approach this concept? Dear Professor. And of course, the title of our program, "Truth is This Land, Truth is That Land," clearly indicates that we will be comparing these two lands. Shall we begin with comparative literature, professor? The name actually explains itself.

[00:03:49]You will compare literature with literature. And from there, you'll have both positive and negative consequences.

[00:03:57]Well, you can do that within a literary work as well.

[00:04:02]That's also possible. Well, periods... uh, they can be compared, or you can do it through the literatures of other nations and other languages ​​as well.

[00:04:14]Well, comparative literature is n't exactly a very ancient field in our country. To be honest, well, both of them, both of them, two books once published by İş Bankası, you could consider them our starting point.

[00:04:40]Well, one of them was a magnificent work by Agah Sırrı Levend. And the other one is... well, it's a work by Ahmet Hamdi Tanpınar.

[00:04:56]Well, comparing the Leyla and Mecnun epic poems across three different languages, for example, that's a magnificent undertaking.

[00:05:06]Well, these are good works that you can evaluate both through the lens of intertextuality and interliterary studies. So, let's say since the 1950s, we've been doing it from a more disciplined perspective.

[00:05:28]Before that, there were things like "this resembles this," "this was influenced by that," and even if they were small, amateur attempts, we need to find the origins of these things somewhere around here. But if you ask, comparative literature, mmm, uh, uh, where do we begin?

[00:05:54]I would say, uh, it starts with Goethe.

[00:05:58]Why? He had this idea, uh, called Weltgeist.

[00:06:04]Well, he had an idea that you could call the spirit of the world.

[00:06:09]Well, this is an opinion that touches on, well, a little bit of humanism.

[00:06:16]Uh, actually, uh, when I was an undergraduate student at Hacettepe University, uh, I took a course in linguistic anthropology. And, strangely enough, the things that led me to comparative literature, uh, gradually sprouted in that course.

[00:06:39]Uh, Professor Yalçın İzbul was teaching the class. Actually, uh, he's a professor in the anthropology department.

[00:06:48]So, he spent nine years in Oxford, then returned to Türkiye, and there, Professor Bozkurt opened up a special field for him called linguistic anthropology.

[00:07:02]Uh, he's teaching.

[00:07:04]And they have some fresh information. I immediately, uh, went into his class.

[00:07:11]And some of the things he said there made a lot of sense to me.

[00:07:17]After that, well, I seriously studied anthropology.

[00:07:21]But let me tell you this much.

[00:07:25]Well, for example, this question is meaningless for humanity.

[00:07:30]So, which people discovered the first fire? There is n't even a tribe involved. So, uh, who will claim fire as their own is a matter that can only be debated through politics today, or who first domesticated an animal?

[00:07:54]Or, who was the first person to use the metal?

[00:08:04]The question is, did he melt it down, shape it, and make his belongings, his weapons from it? For example, who invented the first bow and arrow in the world?

[00:08:17]So you'll bend a branch, thread a string through it, and use that to hunt animals or defend yourself. Who came up with this first?

[00:08:31]These are pointless questions.

[00:08:34]Because people around the world who live under similar conditions, through similar reasoning and similar experiences, more or less figure out how to light a fire. So some people find it by rubbing two stones together and creating a spark.

[00:08:59]Some people try to burn wood by heating it and generating heat from it.

[00:09:08]Some people try to keep the fire from going out. As the saying goes, " neighbors need each other's help," so you might place a small ember in the middle of the ashes, carry it around, and the greatest misfortune that could befall you is for your hearth to go out.

[00:09:29]You even utter your curses through him.

[00:09:32]So, when evaluating literature, we always ask ourselves, " Who came up with this idea first?" It would be pointless to ask who first wrote this work, this idea, this topic.

[00:09:52]Furthermore, we are faced with the following enigma.

[00:09:56]Well, there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people living all over the world today who don't even know each other, speaking different languages. So, even today, there's a whole lot of humanity out there, including indigenous people deep in the Amazon rainforest trying to shoot arrows at planes flying overhead.

[00:10:31]And how is it that humanity, in a way we can't quite figure out, discovers or invents something called poetry?

[00:10:47]So, uh, it has meter, uh, or rhyme.

[00:10:54]Or it's rhythmic like this: It is sung with musical accompaniment in this way. I also say that the rules, like those used to dance, are universal knowledge for the whole world, and how they spread throughout the world and how they exist in every booth is a mystery because we haven't figured it out.

[00:11:18]So, in the whole world, there are, let's say, two or three tribes that don't know how to rhyme.

[00:11:28]That's why the Chinese don't use it. Well, Greek poetry does n't have that anyway, because... its own harmony is enough.

[00:11:37]Well, there are the Turks, a strange kind of people.

[00:11:41]Well, perhaps it's different from the others because it puts the rhyme at the beginning of the line instead of the end.

[00:11:48]But you have this information.

[00:11:55]There's a form called " eee" in poetry, and this form exists throughout all of humanity.

[00:12:03]If we can't explain this, then we have to convince ourselves of the importance of comparative literature in that area where we can't explain it.

[00:12:17]So, it seems that humanity has a common main artery, and this artery transcends ethnicities, geography, and borders.

[00:12:31]Uh, there's this big umbrella over us that makes us think, "These are probably the customers of being human."

[00:12:43]Uh, maybe... uh, this is where it connects with anthropology.

[00:12:50]Perhaps if anthropology were also interested in the products of spiritual culture, the explanations it would offer would greatly enrich and provide significant support to the small-scale, modest work we literary scholars do among ourselves. But as it stands, we also realize that the shared values ​​of humanity are becoming more distinct as the concepts of nation and nationality emerge.

[00:13:39]But our shared humanity remains. So, everyone is afraid of death, everyone suffers from separation. Well, everyone recognizes what bravery means in war.

[00:13:56]Uh, uh, everyone falls in love, and humanity's common thematic element... uh, uh, doesn't really express itself from a very national or very special place.

[00:14:14]During the execution of the order, our reactions are similar, that's why. Human reactions are all similar. So, the Chinese person feels the same thing I feel when I cut my finger.

[00:14:30]Maya can sense people too. So it's not surprising that the expressions for these are similar.

[00:14:43]Perhaps comparative literature makes sense, starting from here. As we move in this direction, we become more prone to division, more inclined to separate ourselves into those who are "like us" and those who are "not like us," so the elements to be compared in the resulting products will be more based on differences. But as we look back into the past, you'll notice that the number of elements to compare based on similarities increases.

[00:15:22]For example, uh... uh... I've mentioned this in a few of my speeches.

[00:15:29]So, my suggestion to my friends who study classical literature is this: I would say, uh, the method you are currently using, or what you call textual commentary, is the method that Jews used to decipher Kabbalah texts.

[00:15:52]So, first you'll translate this into proper prose, show the unknown words, then give the explanation, and so on.

[00:16:03]This is the path of Kabbalah, and Jews have been doing it for about 1,000 years.

[00:16:12]Which 1,000 years? He's been doing much more than that for a while now.

[00:16:20]If you want to follow a more modern, more academic method, if you need to, then look at how the West has evaluated medieval literature. Because I would say that medieval European literature overlaps with what you call classical literature.

[00:16:42]They usually don't take it seriously, but... I'm adamant about my opinion.

[00:16:49]Uh, um, one of the examples I gave, uh, one of the examples I often give because it appeals to me, uh, the sentences of a man named Dora d'Istria.

[00:17:08]Dora d'Istria is actually from Central Europe, but he grew up in former Ottoman territory.

[00:17:17]Uh, he also knows Turkish.

[00:17:21]Well, he went and settled in France, but, uh, uh, from a somewhat orientalist perspective, he continues his interest in Turkish literature.

[00:17:35]Dora d'Istria has a book of Ottoman poetry that was published twice in Paris.

[00:17:41]Uh, uh, that's from over there, uh, a little anecdote.

[00:17:50]Uh, Dora d'Istria found a Turkish manuscript.

[00:17:56]The writing... uh... the nightingale and rose epic poem, and in the epic poem... uh... the more you read it, the more astonished you become.

[00:18:12]Dora d'Istria says, "These Turks must have learned the rose and nightingale metaphor, this allegory, from us, but how?" Well, because we have it, he says. It must have passed from us to the Turks.

[00:18:29]But if you look at it from the perspective of our literature, it's one of our most ancient, most cherished, metaphors that could be used to describe a rose and a nightingale.

[00:18:40]But in the West, uh, you know, uh, there's this thing, Roman de la Rose, for example.

[00:18:49]So, they also have epic poems about the story of the rose.

[00:18:54]There are texts they call romances.

[00:18:57]Well, they know the rose and the nightingale too.

[00:19:01]That's why, partly because of examples like this, Umberto Eco—who is a medievalist—has a more prominent quality than being a novelist, if you ask me. Well, you should read Eco's texts on the Middle Ages carefully.

[00:19:21]Ah, I keep saying that you'll find things there that you can derive from classical literature. I mean, who reads it, who listens to it? But... well, I'll keep saying it anyway.

[00:19:37]Hopefully, it will interest someone.

[00:19:39]Well, things like that do exist, to be honest. Well, this is a matter that goes beyond the issue of influencing and being influenced.

[00:19:49]Well, I mean, it's not something you can look at from a perspective like, "French influence in Turkish literature" or anything like that.

[00:19:56]Ah, similarities that developed independently of each other.

[00:20:16]I would prefer a comparative literature study that delves into these things, a literary work that compares the novels of Ali and Veli, to be honest.

[00:20:19]So you'll take Shakespeare from there, and Hamit from here. It will be a product of comparative literature. I'd prefer that.

[00:20:31]Well, actually, the answer to your question was a bit long. Uh, sorry. Well, I'll try to make good use of my time.

[00:20:40]Not at all, sir.

[00:20:44]You provided very important information. Of course, this section is about literature, specifically comparative literature, dear professor.

[00:20:54]Now, one of our participants is... uh... asking a question. Uh, if you'd like, we can look at those questions at the end of the program, uh, professor.

[00:21:04]So it's up to you whether or not you want to disrupt the flow. Perhaps this is something that can be asked now. I have no idea.

[00:21:11]This is the question our participant is asking.

[00:21:29]Is it possible to create a new method of textual interpretation by comparing concepts from medieval European poetry, poetry written during the Crusades, and troubadour poetry? Uh... uh... it's gotten really messy, but let me try to tidy it up.

[00:21:37]Uh... actually, excuse me, sir, our participant starts with an introduction like this. Are there any new methods to propose for interpreting poems from our classical literature?

[00:21:47]Well, that's where I crossed the line.

[00:21:54]I know my limits. I only noticed one or two places that were worth reading or referencing. I can't do anything more than recommend them.

[00:22:05]But... do we really think we understand the Crusades correctly?

[00:22:14]I don't know. We need to reconsider.

[00:22:16]Because some of the Crusades were also directed towards Andalusia.

[00:22:21]Yes.

[00:22:22]Because Andalusia is Muslim territory. So those coming this way look towards Jerusalem, and those coming that way look towards ancient Christian Spain, like the Red Apple (a symbolic term for a great, desirable destination).

[00:22:42]And some of those troubadours mentioned wrote about the heroic deeds of the Andalusian Crusades, while others wrote about the Crusades advancing eastward.

[00:23:04]The word troubadour, well, it's one of those words whose origin and meaning can't be determined in etymological dictionaries, neither by the French nor the English.

[00:23:22]Well, what they bring, what they claim is their origin, comes from Latin, Greek, and so on, and most of that isn't consistent.

[00:23:32]Because this word, uh, actually, uh, is a mixed word of Arabic and Spanish.

[00:23:39][coughing] Yes.

[00:23:41]Uh, there's a part called 'tarab', which is Arabic.

[00:23:46]The word mutrib also comes from there, tarab. Our change of Terapiya to Tarabya is actually due to imitating its Arabic name.

[00:24:00]Uh, Terapiya, you know, the old name of Tarabya.

[00:24:07]Uh, tarab means to play music, sing, and have fun in Arabic. The suffix -ador, added at the end, makes the noun a fail noun in Spanish.

[00:24:23]So, uh, like in Matador. The word "mat" is also Arabic.

[00:24:29]Death is, uh, uh, a state of being. When we say "checkmate," we mean checkmate.

[00:24:38]So, the word death, the word "death," uh, it appears there.

[00:24:44]Well, a matador is, well, the one who kills, naturally.

[00:24:51]Who is killing? Here he kills the bull.

[00:24:54]Here, troubadour directly corresponds to the word mutrib, meaning musician.

[00:25:06]And the earliest Trabador narratives actually originate from Spain.

[00:25:16]In Spain, too, the Makamati Hariri takes its inspiration from the Makamati of Hariri, the great storyteller of Andalusia.

[00:25:29]Even Don Quixote carries that little note on his head.

[00:25:37]There is a car dispatch right at the beginning.

[00:25:42]There is no such Arab, it's fiction, but you realize that Cervantes, through this text, subtly alludes to both the Trabadarian tales and the knightly tales, as well as the Arab culture behind them.

[00:26:13]Even the reeds carried by the Trabadors are called lutes.

[00:26:18]Lot is the one who is dead. The Arabic articulated letter is "tarif" followed by "ud".

[00:26:26]And it's easily noticeable in those old paintings. The instrument that the Trabadors play or carry on their backs is a modified version of what we know as the oud.

[00:26:46]Then, after much circulating, this instrument came to us via Europe as the lute. I don't think we had lutes before the 19th century. It must have happened after that.

[00:27:01]So, what I mean is, these chivalric tales originated from the central figure of Makamat-i Hariri, the horseman, a somewhat aimless, somewhat adventurous, even somewhat dishonest, deceitful, and thiatry man who was a bit desperate to survive, and the adventures of that man.

[00:27:39]Then, well, it became Europeanized. He's an Arab figure, first of all.

[00:27:44]Well, some of them are in verse.

[00:27:52]If there's a version in prose, know that its poetic form has been forgotten; that is, in the oral era, it couldn't be written down at the time, and was later recorded as best as it could be remembered. But, for example, Chanson de Roland... uh... uh... it's a text that European nations couldn't agree on, each claiming it was their own.

[00:28:21]Uh, he tells you, uh, about the bravery of uh, killing uh, Muslims uh, during the Crusades.

[00:28:32]And these are texts full of courage and faith within themselves. That's what you'll see when you look at it from that perspective. Well, they have lots of texts like Tristan and Isolde and so on.

[00:28:50]Well, the romances that most closely resemble the East aren't chivalric tales.

[00:28:56]You could also compare it to chivalry.

[00:28:58]You know, Battal Gazi, that hero, and then there's the Battalname, for example, that revolves around him. Well, or if someone were to come along and compare our texts like the Danişmendname with knightly romances, that would be a really great thing. The result is a work perfectly suited to the spirit of comparative literature. But then there are also, uh, more abstract romances, which we find more charming.

[00:29:38]Uh, for example, what is it? Renard's, uh, story.

[00:29:45]So, that's the story of the fox.

[00:29:48][clears throat] Well, in our culture too, the fox is a symbol of cunning. It's the same there, naturally.

[00:29:58]Uh, uh, animal stories, uh, are a separate category, uh, uh, and easily merge with Eastern literatures in the West. So, the animal stories of this man you call La Fontaine are from Aesop's fables.

[00:30:21]Aesop's fables contain... well, serious material coming from India, from Beydaba, from here and there.

[00:30:31]Well, we translate these fables into Turkish, as if we were hearing them for the first time, through La Fontaine.

[00:30:40]Well, perhaps these should be studied comparatively.

[00:30:47]Well, but like I said, these abstract, uh, romances, uh, we find them appealing, and we have similar ones here too. That is, the Seyfü'l-Kalem masnavi.

[00:31:03]You are clashing pen and sword. Let's see which one is stronger. It's in an abstract setting, but there's a message behind it. Who is the powerful one? Is it the one with a strong wrist or the one with a strong pen?

[00:31:19]Texts of this kind are also very common in the West.

[00:31:23]Well, as I said, this is Gül's story.

[00:31:29]Well, we also have plenty of texts in the form of mesnevi (narrative poems).

[00:31:40]For us, comparing romances and mesnevis (narrative poems) is now almost essential.

[00:31:45]Because, uh, uh, young people who are trying to research the sources of our narrative, uh, uh, don't want to go back to the pre-Tanzimat era. But the source is there.

[00:32:00]So the <i> mesnevi</i> (a type of long narrative poem) will transform and, well, it will become your story. These will be the first drafts of your novels. Well, you can't write a history of Turkish novels without delving into those areas.

[00:32:19]So they have old books. I don't know, what about Mustafa's work, for example, Mustafa Nihat Özön's novel in Turkish.

[00:32:29]Where did this man start, and how correctly is his approach?

[00:32:32]Although he couldn't write the second volume, Özenli published his book in 1936.

[00:32:42]So, if in the West, texts called romances, which you can view through the lens of their mesnevi (narrative poems), have come to be considered the ancestors of the novel, then conversely, your mesnevis will one day become the ancestors of your novels. You don't even need to be familiar with Western novels to understand this.

[00:33:12]So this is the natural course of the narrative.

[00:33:16]As you know, Dede Korkut was once written in verse, consisting of verse stories.

[00:33:23]Just like you can't claim to have the epic of Oğuz Kağan in any form as a poem.

[00:33:29]You are reading a prose text. In short, it's from somewhere named Rashiduddin or something.

[00:33:36]And you think it's your epic. For him, the flow is already there anyway. In other words, what is in verse is transformed into prose through word of mouth.

[00:33:50]And if you leave the mesnevi to its own devices, one day it will become Taaşşuk-ı Talat ve Fitnat (The Love of Talat and Fitnat).

[00:34:03]No one has the right to call Taaşşuk-ı Talat ve Fitnat a novel today.

[00:34:06]Because it's not a novel. It lacks all the qualities a novel should possess. What we have before us is almost a prose-written narrative poem.

[00:34:19]We have a folk tale before us. A storyteller could tell it any better. [clears throat] So, uh, the uh I use, and it's a phrase I use often, even though I know it sounds harsh.

[00:34:38]Until Aşk-ı Memnu, when I read a Western book, I didn't think, "Ah, this is what a novel should be."

[00:34:46]I don't think we've written a novel that would elicit that kind of response.

[00:34:48]Everything we saw there was romance.

[00:34:52]Whether you 're talking about Intibah or Hayal-i Dil, whatever, whatever my point is. But if the principles of the novel form were established by Westerners, then what you're writing isn't a novel within that framework.

[00:35:12]So, let's say up until 1900, if we're talking about Aşk-ı Memnu, up until 1900, and even after that, well, it rarely comes out, but Aşk-ı Memnu stands there as a turning point, a milestone.

[00:35:29]Ah, until then... what is a novel? We haven't written anything that someone who has any idea about what a novel is would call a novel. These are transformed folk tales, transformed themes of mesnevi (narrative poems). That's why, perhaps, we're not surprised when, in the last 20-30 years, someone comes along and claims that mesnevis are novels. I don't know, for example, we have some wise professors who consider Hüsnü Aşk as a mesnevi (a type of long narrative poem). We're not surprised. Well, because it's true. This is an Eastern-style novel. But there's no such thing as an Eastern-style novel.

[00:36:20]The novel is a Western invention. He established the principles. There is no such thing as a typical Turkish-style novel as the one you're writing.

[00:36:28]These are romances.

[00:36:30]This distinction alone awaits study within the field of comparative literature. So, it's like the West's transition from romance to novel, but in our context.

[00:36:46]It needs to be studied.

[00:36:48]Well, young people generally try to avoid getting involved in such heavy-duty work.

[00:36:55]You know, he opens up three or five novels in front of him. He is conducting a thematic study. I do n't know, they're studying something like "teacher" or "professor" in Turkish novels. It doesn't benefit anyone. Because he doesn't see everything.

[00:37:13]The work is very sloppy.

[00:37:16]But here too, such serious and important issues await comparison. Uh, uh, I don't know, uh, the listener who asks, uh, the audience, I don't want to say viewers. There's nothing to watch, that's why. But did our listener manage to glean anything satisfying from this?

[00:37:44]Yes. So, our listener wrote, "Uh, I'm from the Welfare Party (Refahlı Us)." And of course, my dear professor also says this... Uh, well, at the beginning of the program, uh, I'd like to extend my greetings and respects.

[00:37:58]We are eagerly awaiting the program with both of our professors. I congratulate Professor Kayahan on his new book. This is a very useful study for all of us. So, he also conveyed his opinion. Okay professor, now, of course, we're talking about comparative literature. So, the reason it's important for our country is that Turkish literature has developed throughout history in constant contact between East and West – classical Ottoman poetry, folk poetry, Arabic and Persian literature, French literature with the Tanzimat reforms, the New Literature movement, the modernization of the Republican era, translation movements, world novels, Russian and Western classics... therefore, can we say that understanding Turkish literature often necessitates a comparative perspective, Professor?

[00:38:55]So everyone gives and receives things from each other. But our... our... Ottoman... understanding... it's very strange. So I do n't think we've been able to evaluate it from a cultural perspective at all. We have this perception of the Ottoman Empire whose origins and who instilled it in our minds we don't know.

[00:39:24]We keep describing the state as a closed box.

[00:39:31]There's talk of starting contacts with Europe and so on.

[00:39:33]So it makes absolutely no sense. Because, well, since the Seljuk period, we've had significant contact with Europe. Well, even the first capitulations were made by the Italians, but the Seljuks did it too.

[00:39:53]They signed the first capitulation agreement.

[00:39:56]Uh, uh, Italy, especially Venice, is of primary importance to us. You mentioned France earlier, didn't you?

[00:40:09]Yes.

[00:40:18]The French were not the first people with whom the Ottomans made contact and engaged in cultural exchange. The first tribe... uh... the Italians.

[00:40:23]Italians.

[00:40:24]City-states, of course, back then.

[00:40:27]But Venice and Genoa are fundamental for us, especially in the beginning. So even Fatih knows Italian.

[00:40:40]Shouldn't we think about why they needed it in the first place?

[00:40:43]Yes. Uh, we have the Galata Tower... uh, yes, that place... yes, that place... it was a free market during Roman times, allocated to the Genoese, and when we conquered Istanbul, we didn't alter the structure there.

[00:41:05]We give them our guarantee. Ok.

[00:41:08]Keep doing exactly that. No one will touch you.

[00:41:11]And so it happened. For example, the Venetian ambassador is the closest to the palace among all the ambassadors.

[00:41:26]Because, uh, ambassadors establish relations with the palace. So, burly soldiers grab her by the arms.

[00:41:38]They take his sword. Well, they practically drag you there, practically begging to be seen. They make them kneel on the ground and all that.

[00:41:45]Our diplomacy is also tough.

[00:41:49]But the Venetian bailiff, they're called bailiffs.

[00:41:54]Several states, including Venice, have ambassadors. The others have ambassadors. The Venetian ambassador, among the ambassadors who had the right to present gifts to the palace, was the only ambassador who also had the privilege of giving gifts to the harem.

[00:42:20]So, you can give a gift to the Sultan, but giving a gift to the harem... think of it this way: you wouldn't be bothered if someone gave you a gift, but when someone gives a gift to your wife, you'd say, "Hold on a minute, brother!" It's exactly the kind of reflex I'm referring to.

[00:42:40]But the Venetian ambassador gives gifts to the harem.

[00:42:46]So, if comparative literature continues in other branches of art, for example, Murano glassmaking, with the examples gifted to the Ottomans, will also find its counterpart in our own work, and we will make glass pitchers and decanters with blue stripes and flowing lines, which we call "çeşme bülbül" (nightingale's fountain).

[00:43:18]These are not our inventions, but they are Italian inventions that suit our taste very well.

[00:43:28]We acquired it and installed it.

[00:43:31]This is another aspect of art history that can be compared.

[00:43:37]Or you could say, "Here's the Aynalı Kavak Palace."

[00:43:42]Why do you call it mirrored? Because every side [he clears his throat] is covered with mirrors, and all those mirrors came from Italy.

[00:43:52]Because you haven't yet figured out how to make a real mirror, a real mirror.

[00:44:00]You are preoccupied with steel mirrors. So you polish a metal surface so much that you can see yourself in it.

[00:44:13]Next to a mirror, this looks very primitive. You see the mirror and take it from them.

[00:44:19][Clears his throat] But the Vatican's bailiffs' registers, which historians have discovered and are now beginning to translate, tell us how well the Italian populations of Venice and other city-states knew the Ottomans, especially their capital.

[00:44:53]They are translating them. Even the Historical Society has finally noticed and is taking an interest.

[00:45:01]I think there are a lot of notebooks there, and they're being translated. If we unravel our relationship with the Italians, we will encounter a rich body of literature that connects us to the performing arts, translated literature, and our connection to Europe.

[00:45:30]But we need Turkologists who speak Italian.

[00:45:36]So we need new writers.

[00:45:46]In an environment where everyone is persistently learning English, it would be naive to expect this, but that's the reality. So, the simplest language that could be a language for fools, like English, is a kind of Esperanto. Learning this doesn't really contribute to Turkish literary studies.

[00:46:07]You'll either learn French ( I only realized this later) or you'll learn Italian.

[00:46:14]Yes.

[00:46:15]That's why I often say how much I regret it. I have no interest in learning Italian, yet, for example, troupes from Italy come to the circumcision ceremonies of Murad III's sons.

[00:46:35]They are doing ballet. Opera companies are coming. They're singing opera. To assume that our acquaintance with Western arts and literature began in 1839 is the most ignorant viewpoint imaginable. That's completely irrelevant.

[00:46:58]A state cannot maintain its power for 600 years by confining itself within its shell like a turtle.

[00:47:07]Such a state does not exist.

[00:47:11]This state has always maintained contact with Europe.

[00:47:19]3. While saying he was from Rome, he also loudly stated that he was in contact. While Kayseri used the title "Rum" (Greek), the Sultan was also referring to it as a European state. The fact that we sent so many spies, so many ambassadors, so many merchants to Europe, the intelligence we gathered from those who came back, and the books, valuable books we collected and brought back as spoils of war from the campaigns—none of this tells us about an Ottoman Empire that didn't want to engage with Europe. So who reads these books then?

[00:48:06]So, when Suleiman the Magnificent sets out on a campaign, you see him returning with books full of laws. Yavuz sets out on an expedition and returns with books. Who reads these books?

[00:48:20]So, if you start the history of this nation's learning of European languages ​​with the Tanzimat era, a very funny and very pathetic situation emerges.

[00:48:34]That's why I remind people from time to time, saying, "Look, when Suleiman the Magnificent got old, he started complaining about old age."

[00:48:45]A and those around him said, "Is n't there a text that would please our Sultan?"

[00:48:55]And we don't know who that person is.

[00:48:59]Someone came up with the idea.

[00:49:01]Cicero has a book about old age. Look, I'm talking about the famous Roman orator Cicero, mentioned in Latin. We always call him Cicero, because that's what we call him. Well, anyway, I won't spoil my language; I'll keep saying Cicero.

[00:49:23]Well, there's a text in Latin by that guy about old age.

[00:49:36]There was someone around Suleiman the Magnificent who had read this text in its original Latin and could recommend it.

[00:49:39]And then they translate this text.

[00:49:41]There's also someone to translate.

[00:49:45]And the text is presented to Suleiman the Magnificent.

[00:49:59]I don't understand why those who now portray the Tanzimat era as the age of translations don't bother to look at these other things as well. But if a comparative literature discipline is to develop within the field of translation literature, then these things should be included.

[00:50:14]That's important.

[00:50:17]So, perhaps the doctoral theses that Ms. İnci and Ms. Zeynep received from the late Professor Kaplan are significant steps taken in this regard.

[00:50:31]So, one of them worked on Shakespeare translations, and the other on Hugo translations, along with their interpretations into Turkish.

[00:50:43]But that vein needed to be studied in terms of its historical roots as well.

[00:50:50]So, you have this guy, uh, you know, Katip Çelebi.

[00:50:57]You have a great scholar.

[00:51:00]The man used Latin sources in almost all of the books he wrote. One has to ask, "Where did this person learn this language?"

[00:51:15]So, is Fatih an exception? We'll say, "He/She knows this language, he/she knows that language too, mashallah!"

[00:51:25]Apart from those dragomans, don't we have any men who speak the language?

[00:51:32]No, there is.

[00:51:34]Look, he decided to establish a translation office. Mahmut. He immediately placed his men there. Most of them are from Rumelia, naturally. Because, well, you'll know other languages ​​besides Turkish there. Or he used converts, he used those who later converted to Islam. But after a while, things got back on track. So, imagine that even the Grand Mufti of Athens, knowing Latin and being close to the priests there, wrote a history of ancient Greece. 18th century.

[00:52:23]So it includes mythology as well.

[00:52:26]Well, there's history involved too.

[00:52:28]Well, there's theology too.

[00:52:36]There are also other, well, very sweet pages that tell a story. We need to look at these things too. So we have to ask the question again: when did we first encounter Western literature? And this will happen through comparative literature. I don't know, maybe Bobowski's uh, uh, translation of the uh, psalm of King David into verse in Turkish should catch our attention. The 18th century, that is.

[00:53:14]Well, in verse and in the simplest possible Turkish.

[00:53:19]Or, if we're looking at it as, uh, literary translation, then translations of sacred texts are also literary translations. Because holy books are written from a high and divine place, their expressions are also poetic.

[00:53:42]So, even for the Quran, I know at least 5-6 other books. For discussions about the poetic language and poetic qualities of the Quran, and so on. These things can be said even more strongly about the Torah. It is a very poetic text.

[00:54:04]There are passages in the Bible that you can read as if they were poetry. Ah, the songs of Solomon.

[00:54:12]At work. In the Bible, as the name suggests, it is a song [that clears the throat].

[00:54:19]And we translated them into Turkish.

[00:54:23]We translated it. Did we ever consider that here we might also be touching upon the literature of Latin, or whichever language we are translating from? Could we really be that stupid?

[00:54:43]Of course, we had things to get from those places, and we got them. When opera companies come to visit us, they usually come every three months.

[00:55:01]Because this place comes alive during the three months.

[00:55:06]Well, European communities learn about this, they know about it, and those troupes, those touring troupes, you might suddenly see them appearing in Istanbul every three months.

[00:55:21]Well, they'll be asked about it.

[00:55:25]Why did you come? Here we go, we're going to play a game. What will you play?

[00:55:30]Here's our game with songs and tunes.

[00:55:35]First, they gave their first performance in an area opposite Topkapi Palace where the sultan could also watch.

[00:55:47]He'll play the game in Italian, of course.

[00:55:50]But they dress in their costumes and dance to the music. The Sultan approves.

[00:55:57]Then, a makeshift theater made of wood or something similar is built for him in Pera.

[00:56:07]Of course, more care is taken if those three months fall during winter.

[00:56:11]Covering the top or the sides is taken more seriously. But they stage their plays there for three months.

[00:56:29]What reason do we have to think that all those watching these things are from a minority, that they are all Levantine?

[00:56:36]These men existed in the 18th century as well.

[00:56:40]Bosco is the first name identified in our country as having performed plays with a sultan's license, from the Bosco theater. Should we disregard it simply because we can't identify what came before it? The summaries of the games played there are available at the entrance for a small fee.

[00:57:11]Thank you.

[00:57:13]For a small fee, you get the summary, and you can both watch the opera and, from it, roughly deduce the plot.

[00:57:27]And after the Tanzimat period, you'll see that these summaries were published in Ceride-i Havadis. You'll also see them printed in small print as flyers.

[00:57:42]In the Sultan's palace, you can also see summaries of the performances held in his presence, printed on silk. Are we still, well, unaware of Western literature? Are we still unaware of their poetry?

[00:58:00]For example, uh, right now, uh, under the guidance of Professor Mustafa İsen, uh, a study of literary history is being conducted.

[00:58:14]Well, I was assigned one or two episodes as well. While writing that part, uh, uh, I explained it.

[00:58:24]Uh, uh, for example, uh, when our people translated the verse libretto from Italian, uh, they translated it in verse using the Aruz meter. So, even before you had translations from French poetry, from Italian poetry, even if it was a libretto, every libretto is a text in verse. It's even somewhat like a <i>mesnevi</i> (a type of long narrative poem) in some aspects. They are translating the verse libretto into verse.

[00:59:03]Well, doesn't someone need to work on these things? And before we talk about what we've taken from French literature, shouldn't we talk about what we've taken from Italian literature?

[00:59:20]Or, uh, if we're going to talk about French literature, for example, in 1846, this Galatasaray... uh, let me be clear, when it was still a medical school, one of the students studying there, a Turkish student, falls ill and is sent back to his family.

[00:59:47]His family lives in Kadıköy. It gets worse there too.

[00:59:54]But he tried to correspond with his friends at Galatasaray by letter. He even sent a poem he had written to a close friend.

[01:00:07]Then the young man dies.

[01:00:10]And now they are burying the child in Gümüşsuyu, in the old cemetery near Taksim in Istanbul.

[01:00:24]That area is also a recreational spot for non-Muslims, so they especially enjoy visiting our cemeteries. As a group passes by, they see the religious leader, some people crying, and they approach a fresh grave out of curiosity.

[01:00:50]And a young medical student, a friend of the child buried there, is talking to those strangers.

[01:01:08]With the French he learned at school.

[01:01:11]And he learns that the approaching group includes a reporter from a French-language newspaper published in Istanbul.

[01:01:24]And he says to her, "My friend sent me this passage that he added to the back of that letter when I was sick."

[01:01:38]The reporter is looking at the poem, in French.

[01:01:43]Look at the 24. A French poem consisting of 24 lines. The year is 1846.

[01:01:52]And he's still a medical student. It was the school that gave him this French language.

[01:02:02]And he had progressed to the point of writing poetry. You know how we sometimes see two lines from Şinasi's poem in, say, "Tercüme-i Manzume," or one line somewhere else, and we say, "Ah, he wrote in French too!"?

[01:02:17]These are texts that appeared in 1859. I'm talking about more than 10 years ago.

[01:02:27]And the length of the poem the young man wrote was greater than all the poems written by our poets who had composed verses in French during that period. I would include everyone, from Hoca Tahsin Efendi to the others.

[01:02:43]More than anything else.

[01:02:45]Now, while we are studying translations from French, shouldn't we also be studying those who write poetry in French? Up to Edip Ayel, up to Abdullah Cevdet.

[01:03:03]These are the guys who published a book of poetry in French. Are n't we going to study them?

[01:03:10]Yes, they are men who have contributed to French literature, but aren't their works also waiting to be studied in a corner of our comparative literature department?

[01:03:27]Or am I being unnecessarily sensitive? Don't underestimate English literature.

[01:03:37]So, you know, there's this humor magazine called Punch, run by Münif Pasha, that's British.

[01:03:50]Even when I was a teenager, I used to follow that magazine. He is translating a poem that appeared in a 1856 issue of Punch magazine.

[01:04:07]And we're not even mentioning British influence.

[01:04:11]But this man Churchill made it mandatory for all the Turkish clerks working at the Ceride-i Havadis newspaper to learn English. He never made any effort to learn Turkish.

[01:04:27]But he wanted all the employees to learn English.

[01:04:31]And, well, the clerks there regularly learned English for half a day. Did Sait Pasha become Grand Vizier seven times or what?

[01:04:43]I'm talking about the younger Sait Pasha.

[01:04:46]Uh, he learned English there. He later went down in history as English Said. He also became a supporter of England. Uh, Münif Pasha is learning English there. There are a lot of guys there learning English. And, you know, Kadri Pasha and others like him were there too. They speak English too, but I mean, don't we ever wonder about their relationship with English? Is it all French influence?

[01:05:21]Look, uh, Turkish foreign policy, uh, isn't based on a French admiration as we might think.

[01:05:30]For example, during the Tulip Era, you can immediately notice the French influence.

[01:05:37]But we have no reason to think that things just happened that way afterwards.

[01:05:43]So the story of how we made the 1838 agreement with the British can also be traced through literature.

[01:05:55]Or, during the Crimean War, we had the opportunity to observe the British and the French.

[01:06:04]And so we said to ourselves, " Well, this French army, uh, it can't regroup quickly, it can't move quickly, it's a useless army." But how disciplined is the British army? We say, "If you're going to hang yourself, use an English rope."

[01:06:26]And Ahmet Vefik Pasha, uh, he sat down with the British ambassador, the British ambassador in Istanbul, and uh, he talked about Dickens' Mr. He's reading Pickwick.

[01:06:43]They are laughing together.

[01:06:44]The ambassador himself, uh, I'm quoting from his memoirs. So, if Ahmet Vefik Pasha translated Moliere but not the other work, does that mean Vefik Pasha had no English influence whatsoever? Is this what we mean?

[01:07:07]I think we also need to do comparative literature through this kind of translated literature.

[01:07:15]Well, in fact, if you want to give more importance to what we've done than the French, there are plenty of examples that surpass anything done before. Provided that we also pay attention to them. I mean, think about, for example, Ziya Pasha's translation of Molière. Someone needs to work seriously.

[01:07:39]I'm talking about the end of hypocrisy.

[01:07:44]Because, well, that's the rule in the West.

[01:07:49]Well, all tragedies are in verse, and all comedies are in prose. It's a very simple rule.

[01:07:58]Moliere didn't write a single line of poetry either.

[01:08:03]But Ziya Bey translates it in verse.

[01:08:08]Moreover, he translates using syllabic meter.

[01:08:14]Look, that's interesting.

[01:08:17]Moreover, it translates completely without rhyme. There's no rhyme.

[01:08:25]So there's plenty of material that could be written on this subject. Let him compare it with the French version as well.

[01:08:42]You can start by talking about the emphasis Ziya Bey places on verse and meter in his article "Poetry and Construction." And what does "poetry without rhyme" even mean? We understand what unrhymed poetry is, you know, like Kemal does in his letters and all that, but I tried writing unrhymed poetry, and I couldn't do it. Hamit, you're more of a poet than me, you should try it, my son," he said.

[01:09:02]But we don't see this vein being as fruitful as Celal Sahir's poems of gratitude and complaint.

[01:09:13]But the task is right in front of you. Let's get to work.

[01:09:20]I'm sad that these places are being overlooked.

[01:09:23]And I secretly regret not being younger. There's so much material to work with!

[01:09:32]Yes. Professor, we are actually listening to you now.

[01:09:38]So, you're actually doing something far more valuable than simply giving us, the listeners and readers, a ready-made map.

[01:09:49]You are calling for a redrawing of the map of literature. Very important.

[01:09:52]Well, that's a sentence I always say.

[01:10:01]I say the first quality of an academic is to be skeptical. So, you can't just blindly accept the information given to you without verifying it; it's not something that can be done easily.

[01:10:13]So, you need to check whether what you were told is true or false, and whether there's anything that needs correction. Well, otherwise, one shouldn't so easily say yes to something that's extended. Uh, and [clears throat] if you have a little curiosity to add to your doubts, then the material will be laid out before you. So it's not hiding somewhere.

[01:10:53]There are simply some people who have made it their principle not to have seen that place before you, and who have constructed their own narrative of literary history. You will create a different story.

[01:10:58]The material is right there.

[01:11:00]Yes.

[01:11:00]So it didn't disappear. It's still on the same shelf in the same library.

[01:11:05]Yes. It just requires a little effort.

[01:11:09]Effort.

[01:11:11]Or perhaps it's the feeling, professor, that the texts we think we know actually hold countless doors yet to be opened.

[01:11:20]Oh yes, yes.

[01:11:21]Important. That feeling is important. Well, professor, of course we're talking about comparative literature. You provided very useful information. You've given me a new perspective.

[01:11:34]Well, we also have listeners, academics, and students who are watching us. Later, there will be literature lovers who will watch this broadcast on record. Therefore, you have provided very important information on how we should approach this issue.

[01:11:49]Of course, these are original thoughts.

[01:11:51]Mine, mine, is just a request.

[01:11:56]Please take a look from this perspective as well. Oh, you know, I have a book series called "I Came Here Skipping Along".

[01:12:08]Sometimes I write about those things I've been collecting material for, hoping to work on them, but then realizing I wouldn't have enough time in my life to write about them, so I just said, "Okay, here you go," and started writing about them, like the goods from a sunken ship. Well, let the listeners think whatever they want about this. I would like that. So, I think we should try looking at it from this perspective as well.

[01:12:37]Yes. It seems too late for us now, but perhaps these young people, who are fresh blood in the literary academy, can start somewhere here.

[01:12:53]So, yes, without repeating our mistakes and our hesitations.

[01:13:03]They forge their own paths, not following the route we take. That path will eventually become a paved road anyway.

[01:13:09]Yes.

[01:13:10]So, you're also showing us the way, sir, you're not misleading us. We have been observing your differing opinions and interpretations for years.

[01:13:22]Now, Professor Dr. Fatih Arslan has written about it. "Professor Dr. Fatih Arslan, my esteemed colleague and senior figure whose distinctiveness in diagnosis and interpretation I have been following for years, has once again not disappointed me. Long live Professor Fatih," he said.

[01:13:36]Thank you.

[01:13:38]They are complimenting me.

[01:13:42]As I said, I'm more open to negative criticism. I just feel... crushed by them. So. So, Canan Ulpak, yes, our professor Canan Ulpak Koç, is sharing her thoughts. I wish my dear teacher Gökhan and my esteemed teacher Kayahan a good evening.

[01:14:02]Sending you lots of love.

[01:14:04]Professor Kayahan is one of a kind. Uh, yes, uh, I haven't yet come across many Kayahan-like figures among academics.

[01:14:14][Laughter] I'm sure that's what he means.

[01:14:17]Yes. Thank you.

[01:14:17]Professor Canan is a dear friend of mine.

[01:14:19]I like a lot.

[01:14:21]Yes, likewise, you are a valuable friend and colleague to me as well. So, you and I participated in a panel together, did n't you, sir?

[01:14:32]Turkish Perception of World Literature: Yes, organized by Türk Ocağı.

[01:14:35]You were also together on the panel. We'll probably hold the second one in Konya in the fall. Really? Oh, that's very, very nice. Absolutely beautiful.

[01:14:45]Yes, by the way, I mentioned Kürşat Tülüce, one of your former students.

[01:14:51]Yes.

[01:14:52][Laughter] My teacher Kayağan said, "Yes, it's very nice to hear your voice after all these years." If they put in the effort, well, they'd hear about it at school, but it's just their bad luck.

[01:15:06][laughter] Let them try, I'll expose everyone publicly from here, Kürşat.

[01:15:11][Laughter] Yes.

[01:15:14]Aslı Dinçer is also my relative and she is studying Turkish language teaching at our Çukurova University. At the same time.

[01:15:22]Yes, first of all, congratulations on your newly published article. It is very valuable for us to follow such valuable work of yours.

[01:15:28]Congratulations! He said, "Good broadcasts, good interviews." Another question from someone else, uh, again, sir? The article was referring to me, professor.

[01:15:36]My article has been published, that's what our student meant.

[01:15:41]He meant Kürşat Tülüce. Yes, that's great.

[01:15:43]Yes, Aslı Dinçer is here teaching Turkish, and you've just entered your third year.

[01:15:51]I send my greetings and love to him and his family from here. Abdurrahman Bey, Abdurrahman Uygur Bey, he's our, uh, Cyprus veteran, my elder, my big brother. Should I tell my older brother?

[01:16:00]Yes, I mentioned it at the beginning of the program.

[01:16:04]He sends his greetings and love to you and me. Our teacher Ömer Volkan Çiçek is Turkish, a former president of the Adana Turkish Hearth, and a valuable colleague and friend of mine.

[01:16:12]As the title suggests, I would like to express my deepest gratitude to my professors for this wonderful interview and conference, which I believe was both engaging and educational. Once again, my dear friend Mehmet Polat sends his best wishes and hopes for successful broadcasts. Mr. Erdal, our colleague, is also a Turkish Language and Literature teacher in Adana. He reiterated his thoughts, saying, " Thank you for this enjoyable conversation, and I wish you good broadcasts."

[01:16:35]Özgür Metin is both my friend and a lawyer; he's a valuable colleague and friend of mine in Mersin.

[01:16:40]Hi, that's a completely different topic. Thanks to Professor Gökhan and Professor Metin. Nesim Pekcan, I would like to thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to benefit from such programs by Professor Kayağan Özgül, whose work I read about books. The messenger is not to blame. And we're happy about that too. My goal is to bring literature lovers together with my esteemed professor. I thought about it too. I said I would definitely bring Professor Kayağan on. Oh, thank you. Oh, you never refused my request. Oh, by the way, Professor Şerif Eskin from Istanbul University has also written some wonderful thoughts. Someone messaged me on WhatsApp saying, "Professor, it's a fantastic program. I'll show it to my students." he said.

[01:17:22]Associate Professor Şerif Eskin is from the Department of Turkish Literature at Istanbul University.

[01:17:26]Thank you very much.

[01:17:27]That's also a very elegant thing.

[01:17:30]Yes like that. We had also made a program with him. Dear Professor, as you know, his book was also published.

[01:17:35]Oh, it's a very good book.

[01:17:38]Absolutely, yes.

[01:17:43]That book also won a very important award.

[01:17:44]Oh, Professor, of course, we don't want to tire you out either.

[01:17:48]Yes, we listened to you with great pleasure.

[01:17:53]Every word, every sentence we learn from you is very important to us.

[01:17:58]You broaden horizons, you broaden perspectives.

[01:18:01]Well, even now, some questions have formed in my mind. It's a matter of whether I should look in this direction or that direction, as my professor suggested.

[01:18:09]Well, you've said some very important things. And, Professor, we're talking about comparative literature, of course. Well, in your book, you have many books, of course.

[01:18:20]Yes, we mentioned it, we talked about it at the beginning of the program. Yes, you are making very important contributions to Turkish literature in this regard. Thank you.

[01:18:31]When we get to the title of your book, it's titled Cadmus and Icarus. Actually, perhaps even this title itself could be an important point in terms of revealing common material if two closely related worlds are researched. Professor, as far as I know, Cadmus is a mythical bird in Eastern cultures that rises from its own ashes. Icarus, in Greek mythology, represents the man who fell from the sun when he got too close while trying to ascend to heaven, does n't he, Professor, if I'm not mistaken?

[01:19:02]To be honest, they both belong to the East. So, for some reason [clears throat], we tend to view Greek and Roman cultures as entirely products of Western culture, or at least that's what we've been taught, I don't know.

[01:19:20]But Greece, in particular, is an Eastern civilization.

[01:19:27]It can be solved with the knowledge of the East.

[01:19:32]Just think, even today in Western philosophy departments, Aristotle is taught alongside Ibn Rushd.

[01:19:42]Because Ibn Rushd is the best interpreter of Aristotle.

[01:19:47]One person from the East understands another person from the East better than the other.

[01:19:53]They'll give him an education. Rushd cannot be taught without Ibn Rushd.

[01:20:00]Aristotle, like him, actually believed that Cadmus was also from the East, and so was Icarus.

[01:20:12]When I say Cadmus, they call it Phonix. When it comes to a certain age, when the time comes, it makes itself a nest out of branches and sits in it.

[01:20:27]Then it flaps its wings so fast that it creates sparks and sets the nest it's sitting on on fire.

[01:20:36]And it continues to sit inside the burning nest, until it turns to ashes.

[01:20:43]Then, from its ashes, a Phoenix is ​​reborn.

[01:20:50]This sounds very Eastern to me.

[01:20:53]Well, even though I've seen this in Greece or Rome, it still feels Eastern to me.

[01:21:01]Even though I see it here, it sounds Eastern to me.

[01:21:03]But Icarus, even though he's from the East, the story of Icarus doesn't strike me as Eastern.

[01:21:11]So, okay, you've made wings out of beeswax. And so, you and your father, you took flight from that well-known garden. Your father told you not to get too high, son, but you still got high enough.

[01:21:26]Well, you'd risen so high, so very high, that the sun's heat finally melted your beeswax wings, and you crashed to the ground and died.

[01:21:39]This constantly drives me to ambition— I was going to say need, but ambition is probably more accurate. It seemed like a more powerful metaphor for representing the West, consumed by its ambition.

[01:21:55]Phoenix is ​​more one of us.

[01:21:57]Well, destroying ourselves and then rebuilding ourselves.

[01:22:02]He seems more like a local to me. The more you let go of yourself, the more you become yourself.

[01:22:11]Well, I could say a lot of really bad things, even blasphemous ones, about the Phoenix.

[01:22:20]He [clears his throat] thinks that comparing the two would make a good point for the book as well. And I also insist on giving every book a bizarre title. I couldn't figure out the reason, but yes. It was the same with this one.

[01:22:37]Yes, it's very beautiful. Sir, also, while explaining here, there's no easy comparison book that simply puts texts side-by-side, meaning there's never any "this is similar to that" kind of thing. We are trying to learn about these cultural routes, these forgotten passages, from here. For example, I also looked at their headlines. Please send a letter or, if you have no objection, for example, the idea that this text is not just a text, you also have writings on poems. In fact, our program even has the title "Whether this land or that land," is n't that what the book says, if I'm not mistaken, professor?

[01:23:15]Yes, yes. It was an article I wrote for Harvard's journal.

[01:23:23]Yes. It was an article I worked very hard to make sure didn't resemble a typical article. It was for the Walter Andrews issue.

[01:23:32]There, I explained how similar our meter, which we call Aruz, is to the ancient Greek meter, the iambic meter, and how alike their origins are. Or, I showed that some of our metaphors are also present in Western literature. I don't know, uh, for example, magpies are interesting.

[01:24:16]For example, there is no word in Arabic that corresponds to the word magpie. There is no such thing as one in Persian.

[01:24:23]You say Zağk. Zağk means crow in Persian.

[01:24:28]Uh, but uh, in Turkish, a magpie is not a crow, it's not a crow. It has white patches and white spots among its feathers.

[01:24:43]Uh, and uh, magpies, uh, in mythology, uh uh, well, uh, seven young girls were mimicry, so uh, uh, God turned them into magpies, and the magpie became a mimicry bird.

[01:25:10]Well [he clears his throat] For example, one of our poems, imitation of zağk kepki makes hiramaman laugh.

[01:25:22]So, imitating a crow... well, it makes a partridge, strolling gracefully, laugh. The word " zağk" here should be translated as "magpie". It doesn't make sense when you translate it as "crow".

[01:25:37]Because the magpie, well, it's known for its mimicry, it's been mentioned throughout history, and you have its equivalent here too.

[01:25:48]Or... what should it be?

[01:25:53]Uh, the expression "to fly into a rage".

[01:25:57]Yes.

[01:25:58]Well, spilling the beans.

[01:26:02]Ah, yes. So, uh, about getting the cat out of the bag, uh, uh, I could talk for an hour and a half.

[01:26:10]Yes. Yes.

[01:26:11]Because, because, starting from India, it's like the technical side of the entire methodology of acquiring philosophy.

[01:26:22]Yes.

[01:26:24]So, from the importance of silence, it 's possible to say a lot of things, jumping from there to Pythagoras and so on.

[01:26:34]You mentioned the foot-shaped bowl, Zulqarnayn, for example, sir, and the magpie.

[01:26:39]Yes, uh, so, uh, Alexander, uh, is he a prophet, uh, starting from that, you know, there's someone named Alexander the Great, and uh, he's mentioned in the Quran too.

[01:26:54]So, should we consider him one of the saints, one of the holy people, like Khidr?

[01:27:03]Or should we consider him a prophet?

[01:27:06]From figures that we can't quite figure out.

[01:27:08]Yes.

[01:27:09]But on the other hand, there's Alexander the Great, Alexander the Great of Macedonia. On one side there is Alexander the Great, and on the other side there is Alexander's Wall.

[01:27:21]Uh, or uh, well, uh, uh, Alexander's mirror and all that, it's all present in the Eastern poetry. I wrote an article where I discussed who might have taken what from whom, drawing some parallels between these points.

[01:27:41]Well, for example, uh, in Latin, uh, some of those aphorisms and proverbs are also found in our poetry.

[01:27:53]So, how did he get in? So, who translated it, or did it just gradually seep into my memory?

[01:28:03]We don't know these things.

[01:28:05]Well, but I don't know, even in Mevlana's works we find Latin "eee," "eee" expressions.

[01:28:13]Well, I mean, Velet Çelebi will even have a study on this.

[01:28:20]Oh, oh, I wish someone would take an interest and publish it, that would be great.

[01:28:28]Well, Mantran has done some work on this subject. So, for example, when you come to Esrar Dede, he's a dear friend of Sheikh Galip, and he has an Italian dictionary. Look, look, there are n't even any French dictionaries yet.

[01:28:43]But here's an Italian dictionary. Let me add a small point to what we just discussed.

[01:28:48]Uh, so, uh, since this is the land of Rum (Byzantine Empire), the expression "here, uh, we don't know any language other than Turkish" has no meaning. Because you say to your neighbor, uh, uh, a "kalispera" when they open their shutters in the morning.

[01:29:08]Perhaps we are not talking about Anatolia.

[01:29:15]We're talking about the metropolis, the capital, Dersaadet. While thinking about these things, I'm sure that in Kayseri too, among the local population, there are this many non-Muslims for every this many Turks. A contact has been established with them as well.

[01:29:35]Uh, uh, something must have been given and taken.

[01:29:39]There are Armenian lovers. Uh, right? Uh, so, there are a lot of guys who have contributed to your folk poetry, like Aşık Vartan and others.

[01:29:53]Uh, they, uh, while they're getting involved with you, you're getting involved with them too. I don't know, it's the story of Kerem and Aslı, Aslı being the daughter of the Armenian king. So, Mom, where are you going? You are all in this geographical area.

[01:30:13]You're exchanging things. These are also part of comparative literature.

[01:30:19]Yes, sir.

[01:30:20]So it needs to be studied.

[01:30:24]Uh, uh, I went to see my teacher Hülya one day, uh, there's something going on in Kayseri. There's the Russian Language and Literature department, and within that, there's the Armenian Literature, Armenian Language and Literature department. Uh, one of the Armenian Language and Literature professors was a lady, I've forgotten her name, sorry. So, if we were to direct our children, who are curious, to you, would you teach them the Armenian alphabet?

[01:31:12]There are many Turkish texts written in Armenian script. And we haven't been able to train enough staff to read these yet, I said. They need to dedicate several years to it, he said.

[01:31:23]I insisted again. I do n't want him to learn Armenian.

[01:31:30]They should learn the Armenian alphabet, the Western Armenian "eee" letters.

[01:31:32]I said that's enough for us, but... I guess the lady wasn't convinced. We didn't get any results. But these things need to be learned. We will also receive supplies from these areas. So, through comparison, we will also receive material that I believe will enrich our literature.

[01:31:55]Well, that's what's waiting for the young people too.

[01:31:58]Yes. Of course, this also places a responsibility on us young people, the readers, to pay attention, sir.

[01:32:03]So you're always opening up new horizons, providing new perspectives. It's all about hard work, curiosity, and inquisitiveness. I was including you in that, but thank you [laughs].

[01:32:14]I am young, and so are you.

[01:32:19]Yes, sir. You are young too.

[01:32:21]We are enjoying listening. Oh, you are so wonderful, dear professor!

[01:32:25]Your thoughts are so beautiful.

[01:32:27]Oh, how wonderful it would be if we could always be by your side, listening to you! Not at all, sir. Well, everyone definitely has something to learn from everyone else.

[01:32:38]Yes.

[01:32:39]Uh, uh, well, I'd rather listen than talk, if I get the chance.

[01:32:47]Yes.

[01:32:48]Uh, but uh, you know, let me be frank and direct. Well, lately I haven't come across anything really interesting that I can listen to. That's why I'm sorry.

[01:33:03]Yes.

[01:33:03]Well, yes, I do have a complaint, a grievance.

[01:33:09]Uh, you know, uh, today, uh, I was reading a book by Var Siyah Adam about imagery.

[01:33:22]Uh, there's a book called Political Image.

[01:33:28]Uh, then, uh, I was about to write something on the internet.

[01:33:34]Oh, our people used it a lot. Uh, I'm glad, uh, that the guy is being used.

[01:33:41]Uh, but I checked, and it 's been used for Tanpınar. Uh, it was used for Turgut Uyar, for Edip Cansever, uh, oh, for Cemal Süreya. But the man's book is about... uh, the Elizabethan era, uh, poetry.

[01:34:01]And no one has seen the book itself. In the translation of Warren Wellek's book on literary theory, it appears on about a page and a half. They use it, they benefit from it, to produce an article, or even a thesis.

[01:34:23]So, I have quite a few reasons to complain.

[01:34:35]I regret that the new generation hasn't proven to be hardworking enough. Perhaps all the people I've encountered have been lazy. There are treasures hidden in places I have never seen, and I have no knowledge of them.

[01:34:46]But I also sense a general lack of interest, to be honest.

[01:34:53]I'm bothered by that too. I thought I'd mention this while I have the chance.

[01:34:59]Okay, thank you, professor, for your thoughts. Meanwhile, Murat Önder, presumably one of your former students, says, "Greetings, Professor Kayahan. This is Murat Önder, a graduate from 2000, who followed the lessons by recording them on his Walkman, cassette tape after cassette."

[01:35:18][Laughter] Later, people started recording him on their phones.

[01:35:22]Yes.

[01:35:23]Yes, that technology has advanced.

[01:35:26]Yes.

[01:35:27]The children leave their phones right on the podium. It's easier for them than taking notes.

[01:35:33]Yes, the circumstances have changed.

[01:35:35]Yes, this so-called Generation Z is indeed a generation that takes the easy way out.

[01:35:41]TRUE.

[01:35:42]Once again, I would like to express my gratitude to my friend Ömer Volkan Çiçek and to Professor Gökhan, who created a program that we listened to with pleasure and without getting bored.

[01:35:54]He has expressed his opinion. Well, dear professor, of course we can't get enough of you. It was a wonderful, enjoyable, and informative program, and it was quite significant in terms of its cultural impact.

[01:36:06]This video will also be in the archive from the recording. Our channel is open to everyone; literature lovers can watch our recordings on video.

[01:36:17]Dear professor, thank you again, we apologize for bothering you. Thank you for your kind words and hard work. Your kindness throughout this process made me very happy. I had always heard about him, but when I spoke to him, I really saw that Professor Kayhan is something else, that he is one of the important living figures of our literature. I'm so glad you're here.

[01:36:50][Laughter] Professor, we're about to wrap up the program, but if you have anything to say before we do, we'd like to hear it from you one last time. Well, to be honest, I did n't want to repeat what I've already written, but... I'm convinced of the importance of comparative literature.

[01:37:12]Yes.

[01:37:13]Uh... uh... time has taught me that this cannot be done through English. Uh uh uh, if possible, uh uh, I have a small request for the new generation.

[01:37:31]Let's revive the French language!

[01:37:34]Well, a significant portion of the material relevant to our literature lies somewhere in those places.

[01:37:43]Well, I don't know, maybe some people should learn Spanish, and some should learn Italian.

[01:37:49]Oh, I want it. Uh, uh, and uh, please, uh, let inquisitive, investigating, uh, minds develop. So, to think that something is true simply because Mim Kemal Özkul said it, would be a completely wrong approach. So, these are just my opinions, what I've said.

[01:38:17]Someone else could refute that.

[01:38:19]Someone else might, uh, put forward a counter, uh, argument.

[01:38:25]This is not the realm of absolute truths.

[01:38:27]We're talking about literature. So we're talking about the area where humans are baffled [he clears his throat].

[01:38:35]There are no right or wrong concepts here. Well, at best, we can weigh the value of whether something is true or not. That's all there is to it.

[01:38:49]Ah, so, uh, uh, I want them not to regard what they read as knowledge to be adopted without putting it against a touchstone. Well, they can dismiss this conversation as nonsense if they want.

[01:39:10]Oh, no problem at all. Well, because, well, what we call literary history is also a construct.

[01:39:18]Well, ultimately, we'll establish it.

[01:39:21]Because history, too, is a narrative.

[01:39:24]Well, the history of literature is a larger narrative.

[01:39:29]Well, it becomes that way because we say so.

[01:39:33]Someone else reads the same material, evaluates it differently, and it becomes something else entirely.

[01:39:42]They should look at it within that literary context, that flexibility. So, the idea that "it's the word of God," or "so-and-so said it, therefore it is so," is the most incorrect kind of information imaginable.

[01:40:04]I don't know how many young people in the audience are closely involved with literature, but my words are for them.

[01:40:08]Well, my respects to my great teachers, and... well, a word to the younger ones. Alright. And I thank them for listening to me. Thank you for your interest as well. Uh, uh, better conditions for me, cooler conditions, uh, hopefully we'll see each other again tomorrow.

[01:40:32]Hopefully.

[01:40:33]Be amazed. Thank you.

[01:40:35]Good evening. Thank you. Hopefully we can do another program together in the future, Professor. I hope I 'll be very happy. Once again, Professor Bilgehan Çetinkaya joined at the last minute.

[01:40:46]Good evening everyone. I'm sure it was a very pleasant conversation.

[01:40:49]I'll watch the replay. Unfortunately, I couldn't attend due to other commitments I had planned well in advance. He is also the principal of Erdemli Anatolian Imam Hatip High School. Esra Güngör also says, "We thank you for this enjoyable interview." Well, Professor, thank you very much for this informative program. You instilled in us attention, responsibility, and perspective.

[01:41:10]Well, it has become a program that can be taught as a course in universities. We've received similar feedback from our professors as well. First of all, thank you again for your excellent language and your hard work. So, we look forward to your new works.

[01:41:28]We already read your books all the time.

[01:41:30]Our bedside books.

[01:41:32]We would like to read it again, to continue reading it.

[01:41:34]I send you my regards. I would also like to extend my respects to my listeners. Thank you.

[01:41:41]Good evening everyone, and I hope to see you in another program.

[01:41:43]Goodbye. Thank you.