What Can Lucid Dreaming Teach Us? | Thomas Brophy

[00:00:03][music] >> Uh Thomas and trying to discern um and differentiate the different theories of consciousness, um areas that we must look to are anomalous experiences, altered states, the claims of large numbers of of at least anecdotal reports of things that seem to violate the traditional uh materialistic physical ways of looking at the at the world. So, let's look at altered states. Altered states are meditation, psychedelics, uh perhaps sensory deprivation, which are either either happen or or induced.

[00:00:52]Dreams, all of these altered states have had anecdotal reports of anomalous information or anomalous contacts.

[00:01:05]How do you look upon this this broad field of uh altered states in terms of its vertical window to reality, if that were the case, and if so, the impact on theories of consciousness?

[00:01:21]Yeah.

[00:01:23]That's a a great question, and so I I approach it like altered states uh and uh dream especially we can look we all we all dream. So, we all we all go into the dream state. So, that's an altered state, and so that's a window into connection to the whole field of altered states, too.

[00:01:42]And so in in in dreamland, we're in a kind of reality. So, the question is I think a relevant question to what is the how does that affect our view of how to approach the ontology of what we are what consciousness is is is that dream reality does it have a reality or is it just an imagination or something running around in the physical neurons that looks like a separate reality and there's ways to approach that question and that's similar to the question of near death experiences and even and trans death experiences reincarnation experiences and that kind of thing is there an actual reality there that if if there is then it must be something beyond the ordinary classical physical reality it must involve non local reality in in a way that ordinary classical physics doesn't and so I think that is a fruitful and important uh part of the science of consciousness approach Um meditative states there are many many anecdotal stories particularly of monks in Tibetan Buddhism and that can really do remarkable things to their bodies etc. during meditative trances if you will many people will have through psychedelics have great visions of worlds beyond themselves I mean I could you know just talk personally for for a second you know I have lots of dreams but I can't think of one in my entire life that I would have any confidence that would have some veridical aspect of reality you know my view is that the sleep is really important for you know cleaning the brain and consolidation of memories I think we've studied that well enough to know that there's something real and dreams may be a kind of a an epi phenomena that comes along when the brain is cleaning itself because you know I as I said I haven't I haven't ever sensed anything that I've I've dreamed to have any any connection with reality. Uh I'm also advised uh through Closer to the Truth through many listeners that I should be uh taking psychedelics to really get closer to truth.

[00:04:01]Uh and my reaction is uh I I It's not that I have any moral uh um prohibition against it. It's just that I wouldn't trust it. I mean, if I took something and and I didn't uh and I saw something, I mean, I I I wouldn't have any any trust in it. I mean, I'm I'm I'm doing these conversations in the last couple days. I haven't had very much sleep. So, at one point during it, I I the face of the person I was looking at became distorted for about a second. Uh and uh it really was a uh a sudden experience that lasted a second. But, I'm, you know, 100% sure it's cuz I I hadn't had enough sleep.

[00:04:42]Well, yeah.

[00:04:44]Y- Y- That's uh stress is uh one way to uh stimulate altered states, absolutely.

[00:04:49]And dream reality, so uh it depends on the experience. Um I Most of my dreams are also along the lines that you described. Uh uh but, I have had a uh few dreams where they seem to predict uh or or a synchronous actual event in reality happened after. Mhm. And uh uh it it it depends on the experience of the experiencer as to how how how real that is. And it's very hard to do like uh controlled experiments. Say, "Okay, tonight you dream and we're going to measure this, and then we're going to do it again." Uh but, Ian has recently done uh lucid dreaming uh lucid dreaming experimental process with with PTSD uh sufferers. Uh uh And it produced really powerful results just by engaging with guided lucid dreaming process, really had profound impact on the the people who engaged with us. So lucid dreams is is definitely an interesting area if if only therapeutically, but it is interesting and that's that's where you are in a dream and you're aware that you are in a dream.

[00:06:10]And and and apparently there are techniques to to enhance that capacity. Is that right?

[00:06:17]I've not done it, but that's what I've read. Yeah, like the one that the Gary our scientist who did that used the technique he used is uh before as you're going to sleep do a repetitive imagination process like, "Okay, in my dream I'm going to see my hand. I'm going to see my hand.

[00:06:41]I'm going to see my hand." And then in the dream state uh when you see your hand, if your mind engages and say, "Oh yes, I said I was going to see my hand."

[00:06:52]Then you're back and then you're in the in the lucid state.

[00:06:55]Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and once you induce that, then what is the next step? What what can you either learn or you say it helps PTSD? That's that's that's really important if it can.

[00:07:08]Yeah, well, you can have then as well as the plan to see your hand, you can have then a a therapeutic protocol plan. You should do that with a therapist. Uh but then you can have a plan for the lucid >> another form of of hypnosis which is another altered state we hadn't mentioned before.

[00:07:29]So lucid dreaming and hypnosis are the same kinds of of states that can be utilized as a a therapeutic uh >> [snorts] >> uh Um, technology and whether or not it's it's opening up some new reality is a completely separate metaphysical ontological question, but if it if it works and it helps people, I'm all for it.

[00:07:55]Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:59]It has it has a therapeutic effect and to me I'm fascinated by the ontological questions, too.

[00:08:04]>> Yeah, I know, I'm too. I'm too. I'm just a bit of a skeptic that there is one. I am, too. I'm like you mentioned psychedelics and there's the thing that DMT people report supposedly meetings with the same kind of beings. Sometimes they call them machine elves. And so, I'm fascinated by the question, are those machine elves ontologically real? Let's let's let's create experiments to try and figure out whether they're ontologically real or not. Yeah. I I you know, the commonalities that people report in various altered states, whether it's NDEs, near-death experiences, or psychedelics, I I believe that to be real. I don't think that's a you know, a statistical aberration. I'm sure that's real, but I mean that's there are physical mechanisms to show that because the same psychedelic effect of whether it's lack of oxygen or lack of sleep or the chemical reaction of the of the psychedelic is causing that same thing in in everybody who's happening and so that naturally would create the same sort of of enhanced images and culturally dependent, of course, but the same kind.

[00:09:14]So, you know, I I I I don't think the commonalities among diverse experiences is a has any scientific verification behind it because because you could easily explain it in terms of common mechanisms.

[00:09:32]It it's hard to verify in repeatable experiments, and uh though also like like the death process, you know, near-death experiences and uh reports of reincarnation experiences are part of the field, too. Sure. And we only die once. So, it may be that a profound thing happens at death, uh but uh we can't do experiments on it easily uh cuz you only die once. But, you're only born once, too. So, these things in a lifetime is 100 years or less uh about uh uh may be on the time scale of the universe, that's a very short time.

[00:10:17]Yeah. So, uh it may be each human life is also an experimental data point in this process.

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