Do You Simply CHOOSE What You Believe? feat. @godlessengineer

[00:00:00]Hi everyone, thanks for watching. Most of the content on my channel is supported by generous patrons but made available for free to the entire world.

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[00:00:14]This clip, however, is from one of the many programs that I do on YouTube on the line. And if you liked it, feel free to visit like, subscribe, and watch the line network live. Thank you. Our next caller, Glenn, who's a deist. Oh boy, we already got a problem there. Uh, deist from Northern Ireland, pronounc him, wants to know, "How is belief not a choice?" Hey, Glenn.

[00:00:40]>> Hi, Amad. Hi. Hi, John.

[00:00:43]>> Hey there, Glenn.

[00:00:44]>> Um, sorry, just have to get used to that delay. Um, Matt, uh, I was actually in male communication with you and obviously mentioned the fact that I've kind of, you know, gone down the DA street, but I'm not going to talk about that right now. Um, I have been watching quite a lot of the videos, you know, of the show and everyone says that belief isn't a choice and you literally just said it. I just want to understand what you mean by that because I do honestly believe that I consciously made the choice not to believe in an act of God.

[00:01:31]>> Okay.

[00:01:34]>> Can you Let me ask you something, Glenn.

[00:01:36]Can you can you reverse that? Like can you make the active choice right now to believe in an act of God?

[00:01:46]>> Well, yeah. I think that's what I did whenever I did because I was I wasn't really brought up in Christianity. Now, Christianity is obviously what I went into. I wasn't brought up in it, but I'm as far as I'm concerned, I made the choice to believe in God based on certain options, >> based on So, when you say I believe something, what does that mean? like I believe anything.

[00:02:17]I believe >> um I believe I'm talking on a on a telephone right now. Do you believe that?

[00:02:29]>> Yes, of course.

[00:02:31]>> Did you choose to believe that or is that something you were compelled to believe by the evidence?

[00:02:38]>> Yeah, compelled to believe by the evidence because I I've got a phone to my ear right now.

[00:02:44]>> Sure. So, can you choose to believe that you're not talking on a phone right now?

[00:02:53]>> No, I suppose I couldn't. No.

[00:02:55]>> No. Are there any beliefs that you can simply choose? Because to me, a belief is the state of being convinced of something. And you can be convinced for good reasons or bad reasons. But in all cases, as far as I can tell, it is the state of being convinced. You don't just decide that you are convinced. You are either convinced because the evidence or reason, whether it's faulty or sound, compels you to. It's not in any way a choice. You can to whatever limit you you can choose anything. You can choose to pretend like you believe and you can choose to uh act as if you believe and you can probably choose um to ignore certain things that should be compelling to you, but you don't merely choose the belief. It's something called doxastic volunteerism. Um I highly recommend that you go out and look it up because this isn't me saying this. This is uh a truckload of research and philosophic thought on the subject and there I'm not aware of any case for the possibility of doxastic volunteerism being true.

[00:04:19]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:04:22]Uh well, I don't really know how to respond to that. I'm not. Well, you see, that's the thing. I I would say I convinced myself that I believed something without necessarily having the evidence to believe it whenever it came to Christianity, to be quite honest with you.

[00:04:46]>> And did you convince yourself?

[00:04:49]>> Did you convince yourself that it was true or did you become convinced that it's in your best interest to act as if it's true?

[00:04:59]That that's a tough question to answer because uh I explained in the email that is sent well in reply to your reply that I was at a point in my life where you know I was thinking this can't be all life is where we can't be just here for the sake of being here there must have been a reason a purpose a creation and everything like that. So really in my mindset at the time, I can't really tell you if it if it was an informed decision or just a a decision of this is something I should because of the possibility of an afterlife.

[00:05:41]>> Do do you know what you just described?

[00:05:46]>> Do do you know what you just described?

[00:05:49]You described being presented with arguments and justifications that compelled you to be convinced that this can't be all there is. There must be something more. You just described becoming convinced for what I I would consider to be poor reasons, but becoming convinced that there had to be more. You did not choose to believe that there was more. You became convinced for reasons.

[00:06:23]>> Oh, okay. Fair enough. That's just something that I, you know, didn't, I suppose, didn't realize. Yeah, you're pro. Yeah, you're probably right. I just didn't realize it.

[00:06:36]>> I'm always right. You haven't figured that out yet.

[00:06:41]>> Kind of. Well, >> well, you're right about the big orange baby.

[00:06:47]I know that one.

[00:06:50]>> Now, do you do you want to stop there or would you care to tell me how you have detected the undetectable?

[00:07:01]>> Um, it's it's not that I've detected the undetectable. It it's I think even though I've decided that there's not an active deity, I still I I just don't know enough science about how the the planets and stars were created with, you know, following the Big Bang expansion to know that it makes more sense than a creator And you're probably it's my my argument would be finetuning >> and I know you've debunked that so many times but just as I look at it you know why are we the only perfect planet in our solar system.

[00:07:55]>> Okay. So first of all go ahead John I talked enough. Well, no. I sorry I didn't mean to interrupt, but just looking at our our single solar system, I don't see why you're so hyper specific about that because we've been able to estimate the number of habitable p planets that are out there are in the billions, the multiple billions uh in the universe alone just by the sheer uh likelihood of of all of the elements coming together that for for life to be uh uh to develop on a planet. We've even been able to look out into the into the cosmos and find planets that most likely do uh have the ability to uh house life.

[00:08:37]So like that's just not even true on on its face there. But also the to the wider point of the fine-tuning thing, I I I I don't understand the whole fine-tuning argument as far as like why that convinces people that, you know, God had to do it. Because it seems to me like if we really wanted an indication that God definitely did create this universe, then finetuning would be the last thing that we would expect. We would expect a universe that shouldn't exist unless God created it. and like God having to play along with the rules of physics and and reality in general.

[00:09:14]It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

[00:09:20]>> No, no, fair enough. I like I said, you know, doesn't make a lot of sense to you, but to to me it does. As in why, you know, we're the only planet in our solar system. I know obviously you just said there about there's the possibility of planets further out that do have life the same as us. I >> No, I said that we No, I've said that we've we've we've literally we can actually detect other planets that have the right conditions for life. We haven't detected life like directly on them, but we what we have done is we've been able to discern that they have the ability to house life. like they contain all the the basic uh uh properties of a planet that would would that would house life. So like the life can can definitely exist elsewhere. If it happened here, it can happen elsewhere.

[00:10:10]So like you hyperfixating on it just being this universe like why isn't there life on Mars or on the moon or anything like that? Like that just may that's like a a nonsequittor almost it just doesn't make any sense. It's like it doesn't connect to the wider conversation of proving that a god exists. Just because we're the only planet in our solar system that houses life has no bearing on whether or not a god exists.

[00:10:41]>> No. Okay. Okay.

[00:10:44]>> I have some questions >> like it >> that that can fix this.

[00:10:50]>> Okay. So, you said you don't know enough to conclude that a natural explanation is more likely than a supernatural one, right?

[00:11:01]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:11:03]>> How do you know that a supernatural explanation is even possible, let alone more likely, let alone what your default should be until you understand a natural explanation?

[00:11:17]>> I don't. You're right, M. I don't. Okay.

[00:11:21]So, do do you know that natural explanations are at least possible?

[00:11:28]>> Yes, of course. Yeah.

[00:11:30]>> And you don't know that supernatural explanations are even possible.

[00:11:38]>> Correct.

[00:11:40]>> So, without doing any calculation given the choice, well, first of all, the right answer is just to say I don't know.

[00:11:49]But given if if somebody forced you to decide between an explanation that you know is possible and an explanation that you do not know is possible, why would you go for the one that you don't know is possible?

[00:12:09]>> Uh the old the old stupid one I suppose. Faith.

[00:12:16]>> Okay. So, by faith, I'm assuming, well, what how what do you mean by faith?

[00:12:26]Because you're basically saying that when you're given a choice between something you know is possible and something you do not know is possible, you're going to pick the something that you do not know is possible. And then you're going to say it's faith.

[00:12:43]But is there isn't it possible for you to accept every wrong answer on faith?

[00:12:52]>> Oh, of course it is. But my >> Then what [ __ ] good is faith?

[00:13:00]>> No, you're right. You're right, M. You are. I know you are.

[00:13:03]>> I'm well aware. I'm just baffled at at how you know this >> and are this is I think we're hopefully trying getting close to getting somewhere because this isn't the first time you've heard this. You already know this and yet you proudly emailed to tell me how you're a deist and now you're laughing and it's about faith. What's really going on here?

[00:13:30]Ah, >> good question.

[00:13:35]I don't know. Well, >> I would recommend reaching out to recovering from religion.org >> and possibly the secular therapy project >> because at this point um you you have entered a realm of cognitive dissonance >> uh that is staggering because you are aware of it. You know that you don't know enough to reach a conclusion. You know that you have more justification for the conclusion you're rejecting than the one you're accepting. You know that the method faith that you're exercising is a vapid, useless non-path to truth. and yet you're to not totally comfortable with it because you emailed me. If you were totally comfortable with this, I don't think you would have emailed and then called me, which means not not to sit here and go deep on a psychoanalysis, but it seems to me that um somewhere you are super struggling and it would be very useful, I would think, to figure out why that is and how do you get around it because you might think that you've done away with the harmful God beliefs because you no longer believe in, you know, the Christian God or whatever else. So, you're you're going to, you know, oh, at least the deistic God isn't a bad one.

[00:15:14]And yet, while the god itself isn't a bad one to believe in, and there aren't any doctrine or tenets, the fact that you have done harm, actual harm to your brain's ability to tell fact from fiction, that's the danger of buying into a deistic god.

[00:15:37]>> Yeah, you make you make a brilliant point. You really do. And you're right.

[00:15:41]That is why I reached out to you because you you know you're very good at at showing people you know I suppose not logic but realistic you know reality that we have around us.

[00:16:01]So that is probably why I reached out to you and >> well >> I will what was the name of that?

[00:16:10]Recovering from religion.

[00:16:12]>> Recovering from religion.org.

[00:16:16]It's an organization we work with and support and we raise money for. U they have a hotline. They have people you can talk to and they're not going to try to talk you out of your beliefs. They're trying going to try and help you help yourself get answers and deal with the things that are uh troubling you. And they also work side by side with something called the secular therapy project, which is a way of connecting people to actual therapists that rely on science instead of woo or religion. um to help treat the the damage done both, you know, by religion, by parents, by you know, whatever. It doesn't matter what it is. It's just real therapy.

[00:17:09]>> Did we lose you?

[00:17:14]>> All right.

[00:17:15]>> Sorry. my my phone screen locked so I went off.

[00:17:20]>> No, it's fine. We we've had it we've had a good discussion. I take that information. Go look up recovering from religion. We're going to move on to some other calls, but I thank you for your time and your honesty and answering.

[00:17:32]>> Okay, thank you very much, Matt. Thanks, John.

[00:17:36]>> Yep. Cheers.

[00:17:36]>> Thanks, Glenn.

[00:17:39]>> Yeah, [snorts] I have to say the secular therapy project's pretty awesome. Uh, I actually use them to get my current therapists and uh, you know, being in North Alabama, it's it's slim pickings as far as having good therapy up here that doesn't have Jesus being shoved down your throat.

[00:17:54]>> Yeah. I uh I used Psychotherapy Project to find my therapist uh who contacted me today to ask when we were going to have our next meeting because he can't book it because even though my insurance had been covering it, my insurance evidently just decided to stop covering it or what may have happened is that the the insurance card that they had on file um >> has expired even though it's been renewed. So, in the next week or so, I've got to look into that because, you know, I it's been helpful. I mean, you can pull other people and there be people who are like, "Oh my god, it's so obvious it's been helpful." And and somebody else will be like, "No, no, no, no. Matt still needs 10 million times the therapy that he's had or whatever."

[00:18:43]It that doesn't matter. I I know um what I've learned out of it and how it's been helpful for me. And um you know having grown up around people who they had gross oversimplified understandings and misrepresentations about all kinds of things. Oh, homeless people were just lazy.

[00:19:08]>> Um people with mental illnesses were either demonp possessed or just didn't want to function right in society. I mean, this is this is the type of thing that they held as views. Um, and while I long ago realized, yeah, you know what, therapy is a good thing, crying is a good thing. I'm not going to go through my whole thing about crying again, but it's it's a good thing. Um, grieving and grief done properly is a good thing.

[00:19:40]And all of these things are people are deprived of for various in in certain religious traditions and things like that.

[00:19:47]>> Thanks for watching. If you enjoyed that content or think you can do better than the caller, The Hangup is live Wednesdays at 600 p.m. Central on the line. Links below [music]