Dereleen James Grilling Minister Tolashe about her daughter, Chinese SUV & Food aid.

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]going to focus on two things this morning. That is the questions that I posed to the minister um about the vehicles and as well as the cars. But let me start with the uh about the vehicles and the aid, right? Um minister, you have literally thrown your daughter under the bus here this morning. Your daughter seems to be handling the department matters of the department. Number one, you have said to this committee that basically between your the aid and the agreement was between the aid and your daughter. You don't know what's happening there. This tells this committee that your daughter then has access to DSD letterheads because there's a contract here that actually states that half a salary must be given for household um aid and assistance.

[00:00:45]So your daughter number one has access to DSD letterheads.

[00:00:51]Your daughter takes half the aid salary to buy groceries. This is your daughter, right? Your daughter is driving the ANC women's league's vehicles because it is registered in your daughter's name, right? Your daughter also goes and sells the vehicles of the ANC women's league.

[00:01:11]So, your daughter is busy with a lot of things.

[00:01:15]I'm not sure when you declared and when you responded to my question when you said that your because it shows the record shows I'm just not sure I asked the team to go and print it that both those vehicles were registered in your children's names. So this means your son is also part of the ANC women's league >> as things stand. Honorable James, Honorable James, my only request is that you go to where from where the the minister um goes to where the minister responds to your questions because now now that we know that this was a party political issue, I would hate for us to be exercising oversight over the issues of the ANC.

[00:02:06]>> That's my concern.

[00:02:07]>> The minister then responds in here. If the minister wasn't going to take questions on this in this report, the minister then responds and says she did not mislead this committee. So, she's telling us that she did not mislead this committee, she should have then said on that on that page that she's not going to answer any questions to it. So she cannot come here and say she cannot she didn't mislead us and then expect us not to probe her on her telling us that she didn't mislead us. We can then we can then probe into it >> and she's responding to it.

[00:02:37]>> All I'm saying is that the minister said that she did not mislead parliament.

[00:02:43]>> So I'm telling the minister and I'm showing the minister that she did mislead parliament.

[00:02:47]>> Okay. And we cannot continue with these delay tactics uh chairperson because this has been continuing for way too long. I don't want you to delay with the delay with the delay. I also don't like delaying tactics as as a person. All I am saying is that this portfolio committee on social development cannot be traversing on issues of the national a what is your name?

[00:03:14]>> African national. Yes, >> that one >> that yocc let's put it that way. I am saying I am cannot preside over a on a on a over a committee that is now h deliberating on issues of of political parties. I I'm not I'm not even competent to do that. I am saying to you honorable um um James go directly to where the name of any political parties yours included is not going to be mentioned in the work that this portfolio committee is doing that's all I'm saying go ahead Just hold on honorable members. I recognize your hands. I just want to to ask for procedural advice here.

[00:04:16]>> Uh thank you very much chair. Uh the issue of the donations of vehicle to the women's league was not part of a request from the committee. Uh maybe the minister wanted to be transparent because the matter was before the national assembly and when the chairperson sought advice around this matter the legal advisor suggested that the matter is before the joint committee and it's a matter of a political party. I think minister maybe she was generous with information to provide this h I tried to warn the chairperson that this item was not part of a committee request because it's handled uh in the ANC matter and then the joint ethics committee is busy with it and the president so issued had not been part of this presentation from the onset. Thank you very much.

[00:05:23]>> Thank you. Uh um honorable Lindy Way. H thank you Lindy Way. Honorable James go ahead.

[00:05:34]>> Chair.

[00:05:35]>> No no no. Honorable James.

[00:05:37]>> He's on the floor.

[00:05:39]>> Oh >> no no no. Please chair.

[00:05:41]>> Okay.

[00:05:44]Chair uh what is before the ethic committee >> Mhm.

[00:05:49]>> is the position or the component of her declaring >> or not declaring >> the vehicles.

[00:05:59]>> Yes.

[00:05:59]>> That's the only thing that is there.

[00:06:01]>> You understand?

[00:06:02]>> Mhm.

[00:06:02]>> So now but the minister is an asset of the state.

[00:06:06]>> Mhm.

[00:06:07]>> And these cars they went to her children now.

[00:06:11]>> Mhm. Now that position on that side, we are not talking about ANC or whatever.

[00:06:18]If she says that the cars that were donated to the ANC, I donated them to my children. That's fine. We just need to know that that's all. But if the cars because we don't know if the cars got there by her mouth.

[00:06:36]She's an asset of the she must answer that that that side of the cars and her children getting the cars not the she's an asset of the state chair.

[00:06:51]>> Um okay honorable James you'll have to wait now. I'm sorry about that.

[00:06:58]Honorable thank you very much indeed chairperson I want to agree with you to say that the issue of the cars was not part of the discussion but now that it appears on the on what the minister being honest with transparent if as the committee we want to ask about the donation to the ANC women's league.

[00:07:29]We need to ask the ANC women's league and not the minister here. There's no report that otherwise next time we'll say please report about the table that was donated in the ANCU's men's league.

[00:07:46]Why are you reporting about the cars only as the committee? because it is still the same minister of social de development where the table has been donated to to I'm making an example to the women's let us not allow it and discuss it. Thank you honorable um honorable shariff.

[00:08:15]>> Thank you chairperson. Um, you know, I I I I heard what you said in the beginning of the meeting, and that's why I didn't interrogate the the cars. Um, however, I must agree with honorable James and and the reverend, the good reverend. If you put something on the presentation, you are opening up yourself.

[00:08:34]>> Absolutely. And therefore by you consciously putting it here in your presentation you have opened yourself up to questions from all honorable members and chairperson that is my view. If the minister agrees that this is a political thing and it's with ethics and what about a fish base then why put it on the presentation. The moment you put it on the presentation, we as committee members, we are allowed to comment on anything, anything, even the page numbers and the references on this presentation. And therefore, I agree with honorable James that she should be allowed to continue. Thank you, chair.

[00:09:14]Honorable honorable honorable uh Shahif when the when things like that happen that is why I'm here >> to coordinate and to facilitate the meeting to stay on course I repeat I will not h be presiding on a meeting that is talking about a political party in this country it's not going to happen uh you might have to find another chairperson and act while you are talking about political parties because no political party does not okay let me just stop there >> um yes raised before my hand before honorable >> I'm sorry I'm sorry >> chair maybe we must assist honorable members as well that yes I agree with them that the minister did open the matter and also closed it they did not read the page till the end she said I did not lie to parliament and further said but now the matter is already at that ethics committee. So chair we've got confidence in our ethics committee let us give the committee a chance to do its work. So we must agree as a committee that this matter must not raise again until the ethics committee have dealt with it. Thank you chair.

[00:10:32]Thank you uh honorable Tong. H I I I want to just stick to the point where we really try and respect a a separation of the work that we're doing. If we are going to start discussing political parties in this portfolio committee, it's going to be very tough.

[00:10:59]So, honorable James, please go ahead.

[00:11:03]>> It's already tough. Chair chair, I want to say that this is a state issue, right? This is not only an ANC issue. We have a minister before us here, not just an ANC member of the ANC. This minister did not declare and the records prove that these vehicles belong to her children. And the minister has said that she was gifted by these vehicles. It was a donation.

[00:11:30]>> She was meant to declare this.

[00:11:32]>> That is a fact that we cannot avoid here. This was this was a parliamentary question. The minister then further goes and she responds to it through her presentation and now she comes and says we cannot probe further.

[00:11:49]The minister actually puts it in red.

[00:11:51]>> I would like to point out that I've not misled parliament at any point.

[00:11:56]Honorable James, the minister did say the matter is before the ethics committee. Can we not leave it at that at all?

[00:12:08]Because that's where I'm coming from.

[00:12:14]That is where I'm coming from.

[00:12:19]This is a minister and she should have declared these vehicles.

[00:12:24]us.

[00:12:26]>> Um, just one minute. Honorable James, honorable minister, >> honorable chairperson, thank you very much. Uh, with due respect, honorable chairperson, I brought the matter because the same honorable James is the one who brought it to the ethics and I was transparent to say I know I've responded. I've deposited my own affidavit for the purpose of this committee to know because there's nothing to hide about that the ethics is dealing with the matter when it has concluded I guess it will be public so that's that is my only take in so far as this matter is concerned can you just because the same members who are asking question and want to engage are the same members who brought the matter to the ethics I want to appeal chair and agree with you. Can't we allow that process to conclude so that we can come back I don't know when and how in further interrogation because if the member could not wait for this process and thought the matter must be elevated to the ethics so we must accept that and wait that's my own take I'm not saying I'm shying away what I'm saying and I'm still saying it I've not misled parliament I did Don't mislead Palab the ethics is going to ventilate that. Thank you very much.

[00:13:57]>> Thank you honorable minister. Uh honorable James. Any other questions?

[00:14:03]>> Chair Zan the matter of Zanila and Lunka are also under investigation also subjudicate but here we are discussing it.

[00:14:18]double stand.

[00:14:23]>> So please can we get clarity on what we're going to discuss here and what we are not going to discuss because it seems as if though I'm not able to then ask any of my questions here because everything is now under investigation. The easiest way to hide and avoid accountability, it's confidential and it's under investigation.

[00:14:44]Uh uh honorable uh James um the the matters of Miss Simons and Miss um Olifant is under appreciation.

[00:14:57]The the minister said that it's on the report. If you want to ask a question about a matter that is on under ar on arbitr what how do you say arbitration >> arbitration please go ahead.

[00:15:12]No, I'm going to need a five minutes to reconstruct my questions because everything that I wanted to ask now I'm not allowed to ask. So I'm going to come back and and ask my questions.

[00:15:22]>> You know that's not true.

[00:15:26]>> No, I'm going to come back to my questions. I'm going to give it just give me two minutes please. Chair >> Shahif also wanted to ask questions now including the PSC report. H go ahead ma'am.

[00:15:39]>> Thank you so much. I won't be long. Uh minister you say that you had no knowledge of this with regards to the food aid right you say that you had no knowledge of this but the pay slip of the food aid her bank statements appointment letter has your ministerial letter head and a very different story.

[00:15:55]So if I look at this letter this is the contract that was given to us. Sorry I just needed to break just now so that we can actually print this. This was the contract that was given to your aid. It does not even have a letter on it. This is the contract that you were saying you are not aware of. Let me read this to you. Appointment of ono. I'm going to read it as it is. Appointment on contract as food aid to the minister of social development. No date on here.

[00:16:22]Right. Gives me pleasure to inform you that your contract of employment in terms of section 9 of the public service act as amended read in conjunction with regulation 57 of the public service amendment regulation to this department as has as has been approved with particulars indicated below.

[00:16:40]Commencement date of assumption of duty. So there's no date there. Job title food aid nature of appointment fixedterm contract for a period of six months remuneration breakdown 8,000 rand a month 8,000 rand a month minister's house allocation 7,670 rand per month utilized for household right your contract appointment is subject to conditions and requirements as stipulated in the employment contract so here it is minister that says half her salary goes to your household. Here we have copies of a bank statement.

[00:17:21]Right? So this is not what social media says. This is what this is the facts.

[00:17:25]This is signed. Right? Here we have copies of a bank statement minister where it shows right that um we have a pay slip also. A pay slip shows that she was being paid a net monthly salary of 15,8147.

[00:17:41]But her banking records show that she was only keeping half her salary, right?

[00:17:48]And payments going to Makanu. Say that name nicely for me. Makanu, that's her name, right? Is that your daughter, Minister? Because here it shows her details. It shows a full salary going in and it shows half her salary going into your daughter's bank account. And here we have the cooked contract that no one's aware of.

[00:18:11]in front of us. So we cannot say that this matter must be closed and it cannot be discussed because it's stories in social media and in the newspapers because we have the evidence and we have the proof before us here today. So with that, are you aware that the term minister's house allocation does not appear to exist anywhere in DPSA documentation, the ministerial handbook, the public service regulations, the public service act or any of the official public service framework? Are you aware of that?

[00:18:47]>> And I leave it at that. Thank you.

[00:18:50]Thank >> chair. This matter has been in the media platforms.

[00:19:00]I will sometimes receive some because they were everywhere else and sometimes people will send me some and sometimes I'll get to hear from everybody else. I did at some point receive one which was a little bit worrisome.

[00:19:20]It was worrisome that it spoke about quite pertinent things for me and what was going on around my life in particular and what was going on into the office chair. One of those uh I'll just read it for you just for the committee to to My please pardon me this that I'm going to read is is written to one of the food aiders, the one who was in Pritoria.

[00:20:24]I'm reading elsewhere. It's okay. Fine.

[00:20:59]This is supposed to be two people talking between each other about this matter.

[00:21:12]I am now taking you to the audio.

[00:21:26]Chair, just a question. Is the minister allowed to do this when the person she's speaking about is not here to to give their side of the story or to defend themselves?

[00:21:35]>> No. The the many many people that are not here have been spoken about.

[00:21:41]>> So, thank you. So we can't that rule is very late now to >> I did I'm sorry chair I did not hear the question the the honorable members what the minister is doing is responding to a specific question that was asked by an honorable member. How is the minister supposed to respond to that?

[00:22:09]>> No problem. I I understand. iPhone.

[00:22:20]WhatsApp.

[00:22:33]Okay.

[00:23:00]Because this guy wants to take it forward. Okay, sure.

[00:23:26]I think All right, mom.

[00:23:52]Young What's for the sake of languages.

[00:25:31]But now guys, Yes.

[00:26:19]Yes.

[00:26:38]Muslim Okay. It it it sounds like um it's it's now a repeat of the same thing.

[00:27:06]>> Yes.

[00:27:07]Thank Thank you very much honorable chairperson. I was responding. I I think I you managed to get managed to get Can I be allowed to respond?

[00:27:19]>> No, the the committee will take charge of that.

[00:27:21]>> There's no translate >> but uh Please just allow the minister to respond in the way that she has prepared us.

[00:27:31]>> Yes, >> chair. I just wanted just to give you the gist of the question that was asked by honorable Joe.

[00:27:39]>> Mhm.

[00:27:40]>> She speaks to >> and I have no business to interpret >> for the committee.

[00:27:46]>> Okay.

[00:27:46]>> The committee can then take that and and interpret for for itself.

[00:27:51]>> Okay.

[00:27:51]>> In in closing, chair. No, I will.

[00:27:57]>> If the chair remembers, >> can we for once respect the decorum of this house, please?

[00:28:10]>> Thank you. Thank you, chair. With a lot of respect, I must say.

[00:28:16]In in closing chair, when we came as the department to come and present on the matter of um Miss Lunga >> and Miss San the members and when I raised the matter of issues that were leaking from the department to the public, the honorable member seated here indicated that they receive stacks and stacks of information from the officials. And that day the honorable member made mention of one of our officials from where she was getting that information from. She made mention of that when she was confirming the allegation that I heard that it's like at the DSD you have a desk whether we want to call it city press or Sunday times or what's this one that is new now >> Daily Maverick you have that on a permanent basis in our department I found it there and at the time I said I don't think I have energy to deal with it because for me it talks to the how the officials are supposed to conduct themselves. The members here chair confirmed that their phones are full with the information that they getting from officials about the matters that were under discussions by the department. So this matter that honorable Joe is asking is now as I've heard this one only this one I don't know others it talks to what was said by honorable members which at the time we appeal to honorable members to say allow us to bring these matters before you procedurally and you'll be able to deal with them and give us guidance and counseling on how best can we deal with this. It's like chair was seated with something that was cooked long ago that is now coming to at play at this time which all of us especially me I was not aware of my children my family are being haunted by journalist English speakaking Africans wanting this or that it borders now to intimidation however I will deal with it at that point this is what I am going through chair And I must recommit to say anytime even the matter of three of of 3 million. I guess I must take that uh responsibility that is just uh went through the cracks.

[00:31:01]It is there. It is a matter. We went to the committee of appropriation because they also had an interest. We we we did uh appear before them were still awaiting which they saw not nothing. We also said let's also take note of what the AGSA is going to say in picking up those things that might have been wasteful of anything but we are building on it because the committee if you remember we did bring a narrative. You said we want a report blowby-blow runs and sends what happened. This is what we are committed still committed into and I want to profusely apologize that this time around I did not bring that one. It's going to be brought to your attention.

[00:31:56]We'll send it in 7 days once we are all sure of whether we have been able to make sure that this is now ready.

[00:32:06]Chair, I refute the authent the authority of the contract letter of a food aid. I still want to insist that honorable James said she has got documents and so on. If we can that be submitted yourselves but I can say here seated here we don't have such in the department. Thank you very much honorable chair. I appreciate the the the the the opportunity.