Debate Over Modi’s “Don’t Buy Gold, Cut Fuel.," Amid West Asia Crisis | BJP vs Rahul Gandhi | Barkha

Added: 2026-05-11

[00:00:00]Should India be bracing for a bumpy road ahead?

[00:00:17]Going by the prime minister's latest public address, it certainly seems so.

[00:00:22]And it was only a matter of time before the Indian economy would have to pay the price for what is in fact a global energy crisis. With the Iran war, Trump's reckless, mindless war showing absolutely no signs of abating. The prime minister's suggested interventions have attracted a lot of heat, debate, and light. On top of the prime minister's advice to Indians is to not buy gold for one year.

[00:00:50]Many of the other suggestions that Prime Minister Modi have has made hark back to a COVID era, work from home, car pooling, postponing foreign travel unless it's absolutely essential. His comments on gold have generated the biggest debate. But everybody is also asking whether a rise in the price of petrol is now inevitable. Remember, Indian oil companies are taking a hit of a,000 crores a day to make sure that the petrol prices remain as they are. As I mentioned, this is probably the clearest signaling from the top that India's economy should be bracing itself for more than a few bumps. The prime minister's speech has generated of course as it would a political storm as well. The leader of the opposition Rahul Gandhi has reacted in a detailed post on X saying that these are not mere sermons but in fact a proof of failure. We'll look at all of the proposals made by the prime minister to try and make an assessment of where we stand. This on a day when Trump has once again rejected Iran's peace proposals. I'm Barcadat, you're with the Mojo story. The prime minister is asking Indians to not buy gold for at least a year. This is to protect foreign reserves. This at a time when Trump's war on Iran shows no signs of early resolution. nor does the straight of Hormmo seem open for any sort of movement even while some sort of dullish ceasefire limps on. The prime minister suggested a series of measures and it said this is a moment for desi.

[00:02:23]Every patriotic Indian should be considering some of these measures. Not buying gold for a year was one of them.

[00:02:29]Not traveling abroad unless it was absolutely necessary was another. He suggested car pooling. He suggested saving energy. He suggested work from home. His proposals have got everybody asking how bad are things and how bad are they about to get. Remember the aviation sector in particular around the world has taken a beating. You've had airlines in the in the west actually shut down mass cancellations of flights and we're told that major Indian airlines will also have to cut back on international flights this summer as the price of aviation jet fuel is impacted in India. Of course, so far there has been no increase in the price of petrol.

[00:03:09]Many people are now wondering whether that increase is inevitable given that oil companies are taking a hit of a thousand crores every single day and those numbers could rise further. Rahul Gandhi and other opposition leaders are hitting out at the uh government even though old tweets from former finance minister Picha Damra are also doing the rounds where he too suggested something similar put a pause on the buying of gold. So what's exactly going on? Let's try and understand both the economics, the politics and the geopolitics. Let me introduce our guests on the program today. Gcharanand Das is with us, one of the country's foremost columnists and authors and thinkers. Good to see you Gcharan. Also joining us is Adhiraj Nayer. Dhirj Nayer is the director of economics and policy at Vidanta. Good to see you Dhirj. And also joining us is Tessim Punavala, political analyst and Congress supporter. Uh I do also see Anurag Naidu uh joining us and clearly not yet car pooling but in some car. Uh Anurag good to see you and welcome to the program. Uh let me start by playing out the prime minister's operative bits before we start the conversation. Take a look.

[00:04:20]Work online meetings key video conference.

[00:04:49]Petrol, diesel, petrol, diesel.

[00:05:04]forch.

[00:05:40]All right. U let me actually start with that last point first. No matter what the function is at home, do not buy gold. Save foreign reserves. Uh before I come to the economics there, I'll start with the politics because Rahul Gandhi uh who's the leader of the opposition but also the leader of the party you support has attacked him. Uh has said this is a proof of failure. Uh do you think that's fair? There are two things that are happening there. One, Chidam Ram's old uh comment from several years ago also making a similar advice at a period of downturn is now viral. As these things happen, politics moves in, you know, comes full circle. And the second is these are this is a situation not of the making of the government, right? This is like co a situation that has flown from Trump's war on Iran. Do you think Rahul Gandhi is correct, Akile Shadav is correct to criticize the prime minister at this point?

[00:06:32]Good evening Bara. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Good evening to my fellow panelists and to all your viewers. Look this government and I've repeatedly said this on your show. The downfall for Prime Minister Narendra Modi G is going to be Nirmala Sitharaman's ministry. There has never been there has never been a more terrible finance ministry in the history of India than this present finance minister. I'm not blaming her. I'm blaming the Babus. They have been terrible. They have been socialists.

[00:06:58]they've been left and they have been absolutely uh indulging in tax terrorism and GST extortion which is why investment is leaving the country. Part of the reason why the dollar rupee is the worst performing currency against a dollar is because the amount of dollar is getting out of the Indian markets at the I at the moment there's no sign of Modi's downfall. He's just won a big election in Bengal that many people thought he couldn't win. The people the people are the people are not reacting in the way that you think that they might. It will because he's not he doesn't he's not the Narendra Modi G of 2016 that he pulled off for demonetization and people are pissed off and haven't taken to what he the honorable prime minister said but allow me to say one of the reason why why the rupee is the worst performing currency is because foreign investors are leaving this country and this is because of the finance ministry per se long-term capital gains short-term capital gains you keep increasing gains after I paid my tax double taxation no tax reforms you can keep putting clips of chidamaram And I can put clips of how Sushma Gi and Arunjit Gi criticized him. That isn't the solution. Prime Minister Modi promised reforms. He promised bold reforms. He's done none. GST has become a tool of extortion. Income tax department today rates the same people who pay income tax. That's one thing.

[00:08:13]You would get better returns in US bonds. You don't get money in in in Indian stock markets anymore, which is why the rupee continues to to uh falter.

[00:08:21]Now, let's come to the hypocrisy of it.

[00:08:23]If the prime minister wants us to save on petrol and diesel I think it's no why doesn't his ministries I'm not saying him I'm not saying the honorable home minister defense minister the president why doesn't his ministers go without the convoy why are they going in a convoy of hundreds of cars why aren't his ministers in state governments not doing it why are they not car pooling in fact tomorrow the prime minister is having a rally in Gujarat where he's going to have a car rally with massive convoy to celebrate the victory in West Bengal can you believe with hundreds of cars obviously because he's security and he he requires it. But this is the hypocrisy. This is the first part. Now let's come to the second part. Gold. I believed in the finance ministry. I stopped buying physical gold. I invested in gold ETFs. This is during co this ministry shamelessly re in this budget made the made the ETFs taxable if you buy from the secondary market. I bought it from the primary market. They shamelessly did. You killed our investment. We believed in you. Arun JTG told us long-term capital gain has to go. We kept investing the stock market.

[00:09:26]You've not only done it, you've increased long-term capital gain. You've continuously hurt us the taxpayers.

[00:09:31]You've done nothing. You don't want us to go abroad. Fine. All BJP nas whose kids are studying abroad. Get them back into India. Let them study here. All babus, let them use public transport.

[00:09:41]You want to do none of that. You only want to attack the common person. This is not the narin the Modi of 2016. This is not how it works. One last thing on gold.

[00:09:49]>> The one last thing. Gold is bought by by women for marriages, functions, etc. The actual money laundering in gold started from demonetization. When in demonetization, you would give the old notes, you would get gold at about double the price. Then gold was about 3,000 at 6,000 and that's when you started getting these gold bars. Golds are gold is today in possession of politicians, bureaucrats and judges. You really want to do that, go after them.

[00:10:13]They will not have the guts to do after that. That is the hypocrisy moment.

[00:10:17]>> Okay. So, so, so very quickly before I come to Gchar and Anurra and Dhiraj, I think there are three separate points that you're making. One is that you believe tax terrorism as you call it an unfriendly tax policies is the reason that people are seeking to take their money outside when they can. That's where the problem starts that that's where you have a problem with the foreign reserves according to you.

[00:10:36]Second is the point about political hypocrisy. If the top uh leaders of the central government can't certainly other ministers can uh drop their convoys you know reduce their foot carbon footprint and so on and third I think the point that you're you're you're making is a point on policy uh visi visi gold let's open this up now uh go are you surprised that the prime minister made as many specific references including the one to gold uh it clearly tells you that even if this war ends the and and we don't have any concrete.

[00:11:11]You see the ceasefire is not enough.

[00:11:14]There has to be free movement, free passage of oil products and fuel products through the straight of Hormos and that is a long process right now. Do you believe the prime minister is correct in what he's saying or do you have some partiality to that this is rhetorical unless it's demonstrated at the top or as near to the top as it can be to begin with and is tax terrorism a part of the reason that your fun foreign reserves are vulnerable?

[00:11:38]Well, you know, let me take it out of the realm of politics if I may. I think overall the points that uh the prime minister made were reasonably sensible.

[00:11:51]car pooling, work from home, all these suggestions that you know this is a difficult time for the country and I think uh inevitably petrol prices are going to go up and and so I think use public transport all these things use renewable energy much more uh the keep the push on for renewable energy. uh but what it does also uh require uh Baraya is couple of one thing at least that we need to reook at our vulnerability when it comes to energy and I think we we've been doing a good job in converting to renewables but we could do more and we could certainly take out some of the friction today a lot of people I've got an electric car I'm thinking of putting a solar panel over my house. But there is friction, there is speed money, all these things are there which offend me as a as as a citizen and and and so on. Now let me I think some points that Tazine made sense particularly the the the business of the convoys, the VIP convoys, etc. I think that's offensive to to a a common person. But I would just say that this is an election time. The BJP has won and it this was the time also to now change the rhetoric. In other words, yes, we have to all tighten our our our sort of our belts.

[00:13:39]But the real problem these elections are showing is that the only way to win is these ravies.

[00:13:49]And I think that the the the prime minister's rhetoric in 1914 sorry 2014 when he first came in was a rhetoric of Vikas was a rhetoric of what we thought reforms coming in. the problem of the country is still jobs and it I personally think that this is a very good time even if he didn't do it on this occasion but we've got to stop this business the the >> so so what you're saying >> the braies and you know burka the state governments are going bankrupt they really are so there's no money going to be for investment and so how are we going to get jobs and that's So, so, so, so, so what you're saying is that there's a complete contradiction. Sorry, I'm cutting you short, but I want your follow-up response. Before I come to Dhiraj, I also want to welcome Prasad Duvuri, entrepreneur, analyst to the program. What you're saying is that there is actually no reconciling uh between reform, political freebies, which is now party agnostic, whichever state government thinks, you know, in state politics is being driven almost entirely by welfareism for for lack of a better word. And and and you're saying where does all of that tie in with asking the citizens to tighten our bets?

[00:15:09]>> Exactly. And the fact is that we keep getting reminded of that 2047 goal. It's good to have a big Sith goal like that, >> but you're not going to get there with raies.

[00:15:23]you'll need to go back to that responsible type of and and and you know I'm not a politician but surely this is is is a race to the bottom that we are going through. So although this the energy crisis may be short-lived and the election I mean it'll soon get solved and these suggestions the rhetoric is is a short-term thing but real problem in India is that >> that 42% of Indians are stuck on in agriculture when agriculture needs onethird of those people and manufacturing employs less than 11%. I I I >> we need an industrial revolution.

[00:16:09]>> Okay. There are many issues you mixed up. I want to come to Dhine. I think I saw your hand go up. You have a brief interjection very briefly and then DJ.

[00:16:16]Yeah.

[00:16:17]>> The hypocrisy of this government is exactly a week ago. A week ago, the BJP promised free LPGs in Assam and Bengal.

[00:16:26]A week ago. And today they're telling us, listen, we have a problem. Please don't please save on uh on gas. This is a BJP. Let the prime minister walk the talk. All BJP governments will stop these freebies. They do schemes like Libana. They give your and my money to people free of cost.

[00:16:43]>> It's not just them. It's not just them.

[00:16:46]Every single political party is now in a in a in a look at Vijay's first set of announcements, right? Every single political party is now locked in this template, >> right?

[00:16:57]>> So let >> Yeah.

[00:16:59]>> So let the BJP start this. say we are stopping this or let them bring in a law that this can't happen. You can't just give cash to people this way. You can't give free LPGs at this point of time and yet the BJP was the first to promise it.

[00:17:11]It did it a week ago. The prime minister is having a rally tomorrow with a convoy of cars to celebrate Bengal victory in Gujarat. This is hypocrisy at its worst and I think all political parties should do that. I agree with you completely there including the opposition.

[00:17:25]>> Okay. uh let's you see it's very difficult because it's an intertwined argument about politics you know people feeling resentful about the entitlements and privileges of politicians and bureaucrats and then there is a genuine global crisis a genuine economic downturn that I think some of us have been expecting now for several months it its effects have already begun to be felt I think a petrol pipe price personally is inevitable probably coming sooner rather than later but let's get to the proposal on gold What do you make of that?

[00:17:59]>> It's a proposal. Um I mean the prime minister can say uh you know all these good things. It's not going to make one bit of difference in time >> because people will not stop buying gold because people will not stop buying gold >> in times of in times of uncertainty when your equity markets are going down when the rupee is going down the safe asset is gold. uh Indians can't buy US dollar treasuries which are the other safe haven assets but even if you look at the scenario globally even globally people are not buying US treasuries anymore because of Trump they are buying gold everybody is buying gold RBI is buying gold so why will ordinary Indians stop buying gold just because the prime minister tells you stop buying gold right it's not going to happen uh people are not going to carpool uh people are not going to stop driving uh their cars none of this is going to work uh all good intentions But uh you know I don't think uh you know it's going to work.

[00:18:54]What's going to work eventually is price signals. So yes if you raise the cost of jet fuel and ticket prices go up people will not travel abroad because it's more expensive. Uh similarly they might drive less if petrol prices go up. So I think ultimately people respond to price signals. They are not going to respond to a call for dishbati on on these particular on this particular issue particularly if the government is not leading by example as you know the others have said you know either the government should issue orders uh to uh its ministers to its in fact carpooling is the easiest for the government because they all live in the same area uh and you know they can share security and except for maybe the prime minister home minister they can all do it but I mean that's I think a small point uh my point is that uh it's not going to happen and this is uh I mean we can now scramble uh and you know everything will be done to scramble you'll uh raise fuel prices the other alternative bark uh you know the fuel the price of petrol in Delhi uh for is for one liter is 94 rupees or 95 rupees around that out of which the price is 47 the remaining is tax collected by the center and by the states so the second option is to reduce taxes uh you don't have to raise crisis, the government can take the hit and reduce taxes, but that will not happen because then who will finance the freebies, right? Uh so so actually the government uh the chickens have come home to roost. Uh it's because of your uh ravies. It's because you have not done anything about your import dependence on oil. Oil production has fallen every year for the last 11 years.

[00:20:30]Uh in the meanwhile, smaller countries like Guyana, Libya, so on are producing uh new wells of oil. So I think there are lots of structural problems. I mean why are we talking about conserving foreign exchange now? I thought this was something they left behind in 1991 or or you know in the 1990s. By now we should have been exporting enough. We should have enough foreign direct investment to not worry about uh conserving foreign exchange but we don't.

[00:20:54]>> SO LET ME ask you let me ask you how bad is it? How bad how bad is the situation right now?

[00:21:01]>> It's not bad. I mean so or so the thing is I think I primary >> and by bad let let me define bad because I don't want to be seen as creating panic in terms of supplies. So I should read out that the government has said you know 60 days 60 days of of of of crude oil 45 days of running LPG stock no shortages don't hold. I want to say all of that. When I say how bad is it, I mean are we entering a phase of economic downturn spurred on by global events like CO was but caught in this sort of political culture as GC and have said of freebies of not being able to cut taxes because the government needs that revenue and so on like how do you assess the overall macroeconomic situation?

[00:21:43]>> Yes, I mean it's inevitable, right? If oil prices continue at above $100 a barrel or $120 a barrel, uh you know the macroeconomic consequences for India have always been obvious. It's not the first time this has happened, right?

[00:21:55]Rupee falls, >> your current account deficit goes up.

[00:21:58]You know, all of the inflation will go up. So these are these are inevitabilities. If there's a prolonged period of uh high fuel prices, right, we should be ready for it. My point is different that we haven't we haven't been ready for it structurally. We haven't changed our economy enough as Daran alluded to be immune to a degree to these changes like we can't control as you said at the start what happens between Iran and the US or tomorrow between any other two countries right we that's not in our control but what is in our control uh we haven't done enough of right so uh I think you know populism is out of control which makes the government revenue minded which is why it raises long-term capital gains tax which is why it puts security transaction tax even now if you wanted if you want a short-term fix uh for the rupee uh uh and and for your inflows uh cut abolish capital gains tax, cut out the security transactions tax, but then you're going to have to cut expenditure somewhere as well uh to control your fiscal deficit. But there are short-term ways beyond asking people to cons uh I mean it's great. I mean energy conservation is a great idea. We should all do it. Uh but will we do it is I have my doubts. So the government should use other uh measures to shore up foreign uh inflows. Uh and one way I think immediately is by getting rid of some of the taxes uh you know which which have caused friction with you know particularly portfolio inflows. So I think the answers lie in policy uh uh you can cut taxes but uh I think you also have to think for a moment and think about the freebies and think about rationalizing some expenditure. I don't think the situation is that bad. The situation is only bad because if you have if you are committed to spending on that kind of populism for an indefinite amount of time. uh we are not fundamentally that weak. Uh we can cope with it but let the government cut some taxes cut its expenditure as well and let's see some real austerity on on the government side and and we we'll get through this and >> and actually I think that's a that's a very brilliant point that why not just let's say slash capital gains tax and then take the hit and then absorb that hit by the government by cutting its own spending. uh I think is the point that you're making but for that you have to give up uh what has come to be the defining feature of how to win elections in India which is populist promises the the fact is that Tasin Gcher and Adhi may well have three very distinct political ideologies but right now so far they seem to be in broad agreement on what the problem is uh I want to bring in Anurag and Prasad Anurag I hope you can hear me now just give a thumbs up >> am I audible >> yeah you are yeah you are uh what did you think of the prime minister's speech you know everybody here has their own take but I'll come to the operative part of Dhiraj nobody's going to listen gold is what people think is secure when everything else seems undependable even if you're not buying gold for a extravagant shadi that is where you think you know you think this this will be with me even if everything else fluctuates right um the calls on this in this conversation are for the government to slash taxes to to reform its tax policy and to reook populist politics which it's not just the BJP. Every single party I said before you joined me is guilty of that. Go ahead and >> yes and land. Yes, you're right. You know in India we people treat this as hard assets people feel very secured where when they are in possession of these two commodities both land and gold. uh but you're right I think burka technically the point that I understand and and and I believe that this is a point where uh we we need to look at it from a from a very generalistic view uh politics aside yes of course for the sake of making political comments you can always compare that okay you cut down on your flight travels your ministers are taking private jets no need to take private jets no need to take choppers yes that's right you don't need to have convoys which are you know ranging for running into kilometers that is right yes these are things that that you need to do. But even after doing all these things, what you are going to end up contributing to the overall consumption of the fuel and the resources is still going to be minuscule compared to what this whole population will be able to do. And it is what prime minister is essentially talking about is a mindshare shift.

[00:26:13]Burka having traveled across the world, I do not see any other country spending at least what I have seen any other country spending so much as we do on our fuel prices. You know in Bangalore let's give an example when I travel to work on a 15 kilometer of a stretch in outering road where almost 1.5 million techies work in that one particular stretch of 9 to 10 kilometers you will see SUVs and only one person driving it you know SUVs and big cars that that guzzle their fuel like anything give us poor mileage it's a status symbol in India nowhere else is a status symbol this is the thing that we need to ditch we need to bring >> BUT THEN MANDATE IT BUT then mandate it I think we should I think the Government should say there is a energy crisis globally. We cannot have any number of vehicles on the road right now.

[00:27:01]>> Absolutely. Yes.

[00:27:02]>> Let let you know allow those who who are on two two wheelers or auto rickshas or and so on on the streets. Everybody else take an Uber. We can all afford to do it. Mandate it. Mandate it. Why? Why isn't it mandated?

[00:27:19]>> No. Absolutely. So, so burka what you do is as I mean look just imagine that if you are to be in a position of a prime minister >> I know is disagreeing with me but I'm I'm giving a counter thought that why don't you burka what you said is a policy you know creation it's a policy then you create then you implement it takes time for a prime minister of a large country like India what I can do as an immediate effect is make a statement make my message clear so that people get into effect immediately he does he he's also sure I mean we know for sure that people are not going to stop using cars not going to start car pooling right overnight but there will be some change immediately you are appealing to the masses I mean it's about a mindset shift that he's TRYING TO MAKE THAT'S FINE POLICIES will follow >> okay I think they seen at a brief interjection good is appalled that I'm saying mandate this I'm just putting I feel that leaving it to people to say please use public transport trust your conscience has never worked it has never worked okay but they quickly gadas has been yeah >> we mandated we let's just make ourselves the communism country of India. Let's just make it mandate. I mean, seriously, and this is a prime minister of demonetization getting up at 8:00 on 8th November. Look, here's the point. There are two points. I believe my government and I invested in gold ETF. I feel like a fool. I feel like a complete fool.

[00:28:35]They now have got they they retrospectively taxed it.

[00:28:40]>> Who will believe this government? One day they get up, they change, they did demonetization. Monday they got up they made long-term capital gains they increased it after promising us that when short-term capital gains come in they won't do it then they did this on gold ETF they have complete this government honestly this finance ministries continued to con us but let's and I'm an investor and honest taxpayer now let's talk about public transport etc my mom's on the wheelchair because of her accident yesterday mother's day I decided to go with my mom for chai so on the wheelchair you don't have footpaths you don't have parking you don't have anywhere to drive there is no ramp how do you want a common man to travel and I am very privileged. Believe me, I have an entourage with me. I'm very privileged. Imagine the common person.

[00:29:20]What are you giving this country? The 30 lakh crores or 40 lakh crores that this government has earned from petrol sales in the last 10 years. Can we know what infrastructure has been built? Where is it for the common man? You want us to take a bus? We're ready to take it.

[00:29:32]Where is that infrastructure?

[00:29:34]>> Okay. So, I think nobody likes my idea of mandating. But I just know one thing that and on this I'm with Hi. people are not unfortunately unless it begins impacting them themselves in covid people stayed inside because they were scared of getting the virus they didn't do it as as as as you know out of the duty or dishi unfortunately I don't think you're going to see that so without some mandates without some policy I think appealing to the conscience of the general public that ain't going to cut it according to me now I know everybody wants to react to my very contentious idea of mandating private vehicular traffic but I prasad your opening comments and then I'll come to everybody. Gcharan and Dhiraj in and Anurra. Yeah.

[00:30:15]>> Hi Burger. Sorry I'm a little late because I was driving stuck in traffic and I burnt an extra >> and not and and not car pooling and not car pooling.

[00:30:23]>> I was not car pooling. I was in my SUV and I burnt an extra liter of gas because I was stuck in traffic. Sorry.

[00:30:30]Sorry to you as well as to Prime Minister Modi. But u getting a little bit more serious about what was announced last night. I completely disagree with everything that the prime minister appealed to.

[00:30:42]>> Okay.

[00:30:43]>> It's the government's it's the government's job to find fuel for our country. If we need 10 million barrels of of oil, you know, to sustain the economy, they have to find a way to do it. If it costs X or Y, then that's what they pay and it comes to us. Uh and then we >> but it's a global but there is a war that is not in anybody's control that the hormos is blocked is not in Prime Minister Modi's control. go buy from the US, you know, eat a little crow, go bow your head down to Trump, but go buy oil from the US. You have you have a responsibility as a government. It is your job to take care of the resources a country needs. Beg, borrow, steal, do what you need to do. If or or if you don't want to succumb to Trump, then go defy him, go export Russian and Iranian oil through some other ch but it's their job to get the oil into the country and don't tell us don't use this, don't use that. charge us for it. Charge us. I don't >> BUT IF THEY CHARGE IF THEY CHARGE YOU and they raise the prices of petrol, you also complain. No, it was it was the government's job.

[00:31:44]>> I didn't mean charging by raising the price of petrol. Here are the two three things they can do. We we mandatorily have to conduct what is called as a PU test on our car every six months. Each and every car in this country has to go through a mandatory PU. Right. We pay 100 rupees and we get that certificate.

[00:32:03]Yeah. So during the oil crisis, make it 1,000 rupees.

[00:32:08]Add 900 for all the gas guzzlers. The the the when you do your PUC, there is enough data about your car. If your car is a gas guzzler, a 7 series, a SUV that guzzles a lot of gas, just just for the time period temporarily add a sess on it. you know, make it a thousand rupees from 100 rupees and people will pay and they'll make the decision. If they feel that they need to use an SUV and they need to take it out, they're going to and own one, then they're going to pay for it. Leave it to leave it to the people to decide what is right for them.

[00:32:40]For the smaller cars that people use, the small, you know, the i10s or whatever the small cars are, u you know, don't do that. Maybe increase that to increase that by 100 rupees. So that's my point because because because because if I reduce my crude oil imports I am impacting a $ 35 billion prochemical export industry because the crude comes into the country. It is refined the byproducts industry of petrochemicals that comes out of it that is feeding lacks and lacks of jobs in by by Reliance HPCL BPCL everybody and all of those byproducts petrochemical byproducts are being exported and that's a 25 30 40 billion value with a CG of about 6% every year >> I don't want to impact that I want to import as much crude I can that's one gold let's come to gold I have to say gold because you and I have been chatting about gold since yesterday Yeah, that's the the most I don't want to use a harsh word. The most unwise thing to do is to stop importing gold.

[00:33:47]Import as much gold as you can. Import as much gold as you can. Let the price go up because once people buy gold at whatever price we as far as gold is concerned, we import it. We never India does not export gold. So if let's let's say let's say I have 2 kgs of gold lying with me and I'm I'm going through a very hard times. It's a great asset. I'll sell a little bit of that. Now what happens? It rotates in inside the economy. The if I sell gold, it doesn't get exported out to the out of this country. It rotates inside the economy and so there's economic activity that gets generated. So such such imports I would say they should encourage these imports. They should it's it's not a good idea to stop gold imports or reduce them.

[00:34:33]Suck up the gold from the global. What did China do? Suck up from the market.

[00:34:38]Bring it into India.

[00:34:39]>> So, so, so we've heard everything from Dhiroj's proposal to slash taxes. You're saying be innovative, raise some cesses, minor cesses, and make up for that.

[00:34:48]Nobody agrees on the gold proposal.

[00:34:50]Nobody agrees with me that nobody's going to stop going out in their cars unless you have some. I feel that >> I agree with you. I agree with you. Just that the method Yeah. The method is instead of instead of a voluntary mandate of of asking people to be nice, basically impose a tax on it through the PUC.

[00:35:09]>> Okay.

[00:35:11]>> Okay. Go Chandas. You you were obviously not in agreement with any suggestion of a state mandate on how you should Yes.

[00:35:19]Go ahead. No, because because I'm I I think that would infringe basic liberty.

[00:35:25]And so I think that the other ideas that have been suggested, Dra's idea, uh even this the idea that we've just heard about the PUC, price signals are a far better way to regulate uh than mandating.

[00:35:44]and and and that's really in a democracy in a free democracy >> but but the problem is that price signals apply to everybody uniformly including people who can't afford them or including people who are impacted by them differently >> so there there I mean the suggestion that the last speaker made was >> there must be a way prasad sorry there must be a way to those to to tax the gas guzzlers the bigger lux luxury cars >> be able to differentiate it in a way so that you can also send them a price signal.

[00:36:22]>> Uh now maybe they're not going there, you know that that that is is not guaranteed but it is the right way to go. Barka mandating you are sounding like a commisar and >> point I I I I I am not I am not a commisar but I have seen in co that nobody follows any sort of collective action unless they are personally impacted by it themselves.

[00:36:51]>> I know wants to respond to you in half a second. Yeah, go ahead.

[00:36:54]>> Very quickly, I I hear you. But you know there is a value in the suggestion that if from the top you stop people like in Europe the prime minister goes on a bicycle to work.

[00:37:09]>> Yeah. And so if at the top you start that kind of behavior then you do set a sort of standard of >> I think that's a I think that's a good point that I I wanted to say this to Anurra but we just lost him in in that car in which he's not car pooling and maybe he'll reconnect but more seriously would you say if the prime minister had made these announcements by saying I have instructed so okay you can't mandate I don't know if you like my idea of mandating the citizens at large but the prime minister can mandate government right? He can mandate his cabinet. He can mandate his colleagues.

[00:37:43]So if the prime minister has said I am urging Indians to do this and as a first step I have mandated every single cabinet minister to drop two cars from their convoy as a start and I'm hoping we can drop some more. I am asking cabinet ministers to carpool their way to government offices. I think that then it becomes extremely diff I still think I'm still cynical enough to think people won't do it but I think it sets a very different tone. Yes, it does set a different tone but again I mean two convoys won't happen because if you see Samraat Chri yesterday while he was going to there were like 25 cars I mean I understand he's the chief minister of the 25 28 cars that's this is you know seemaran man's own convoy 30 35 cars I mean these visuals are there I think this has to stop at some point and you can have two or three cars it's not that he requires so many so you bring it in proportion and mandate baboos to use public transport we are in this myth because of the bureaucracy Babu study their kids study abroad they don't use government hospitals they don't their kids don't study in government schools they don't use public transport they are responsible for running this country and they've destroyed this country but I want to I disagree with sir uh Das sir on one thing you know uh I drive both an SUV and a 7 series I have worked very hard to earn my car I've paid my taxes I've paid more on my car I paid higher taxes I pay higher proportionate taxes because of the value of the car and I've paid higher GST now Even I have to still be taxed. So am I a criminal? I mean you are only finding me. Why don't you rationalize taxes?

[00:39:22]>> You can afford it. You can afford it.

[00:39:24]>> What kind of socialism is this? You must create a thousand more rich people rather than making everyone poor. There I >> can't but you but you can't create a thousand rich people in the middle of an economic downturn. No >> econom in a in the middle when everything was going down. You got up one night and you demonetized the entire currency. when things were going you suddenly brought in GST without the infrastructure and you created havoc with the business you still earned more than 30 to 40 lakh crores on the petrol price sale you have to be accountable give us accountability and then expect us and I'm again repeating on gold please understand what all of us collectively buy on gold or our parents or our mothers or our wives or whoever they is very little the actual gold smuggling or gold conversion of black happens with bureaucrats judges and politicians. A cr of rupees or 2 cr of r rupees is big amount in bags and it can get burnt or lost as we saw in a judge's house. In this particular case, a cr and a half worth gold bar is this much. It can hide in your pocket.

[00:40:23]>> I I I only I only smiled because I had forgotten about justice. I don't even know what happened. I completely forgot about him.

[00:40:31]>> Keeping cash is difficult. Who is getting this goal? It's it's bureaucrats and it's judges and it's politicians and everybody knows it. They all know it.

[00:40:40]Either way either either way we are talking about some mandates I know libertarians people who are focused on individual rights hate the idea wants to come in uh Dhirj and then go dhir yeah >> again I don't think you know mandates are going to work I mean you think do you in any realistic world you think prime minister Modi is going to tell bureaucrats in his government or in state governments to come by public transport he's going to lose all their votes right so and they are extremely influential people it's not going to happen these mandates mandates won't work. People will find find their way.

[00:41:11]If you ask me honestly, this isn't his speech really. Even he's he's too cany a politician. He knows uh that people are not going to automatically respond to I think he's just preparing the people for the pain which is coming ahead which is going to >> I agree >> which is going to be a rise in the prices of petrol. There may be taxes of the kind that Prasad suggested. There's going to be a bigger burden on the people to cough up money and I think this is the first step. This is a gentle step. Uh you know try and do it on your own. Uh as you AND I BUT BUT CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING? You know you have had uh gold sellers today protesting in UP saying hey why are you asking people not to give us less business. You he said avoid non-essential foreign travel.

[00:41:55]Aviation companies are already in crisis right like look at what's happening in the world. The counterargument is that yes you've got to prepare people for the pain ahead but you don't actually have to discourage economic activity where it is still possible.

[00:42:08]I mean I don't agree with the you know again the traveling abroad part. I mean these are all old ideas frankly. I mean these are if you're saying you're on the one hand fourth largest economy on the world big bat then I would rather avoid this language. Of course there is a way to warn uh or or or to uh which is why I think this is more a warning. I don't think he realistically expects or the point about foreign weddings. How many Indians have foreign weddings uh you know weddings outside India? It's a tiny minority. even if they stop it's not going to make a difference in this situation. Uh even foreign travel, how many Indians out of 1.4 billion do foreign travel? So I think these were all again uh you know I think just uh pointers to the middle class which is going to bear the burden uh of what is going to come next.

[00:42:51]>> I think I I I actually completely agree with you. I think this was signaling uh I don't think this was a slew of policy measures. It was preparing the ground psychologically that prices are going to go up, things are going to be more expensive. We're in for a rocky time.

[00:43:04]Ghara, you wanted to come in and then Prasad.

[00:43:07]>> Yeah, I I just wanted to say these are short-term things. This war is going to get over. All this will sort itself out.

[00:43:17]But the real problem is the problem of this race to the bottom through revies.

[00:43:25]We have forgotten. Mr. Modi has forgotten and the whole political class has forgotten that vikas that we have a vixit bharat goal. We have to still create an industrial revolution and prepare the country for the difficult reforms that we still have to do and and really this is the golden opportunity a crisis like this is not just to solve to tide over this this particular problem.

[00:43:55]It's to remind us where we have to go and we have to find a solution out of a solution which involves all political parties.

[00:44:07]um this could there could be no bigger uh and more important political economically economic political issue that's facing our country and I hope be barka you will do a special session >> I I I I I will try my best but I actually do like's idea that imagine if a major tax was just slashed was just you know you need to stimulate sort of sentiment we're we're we're taking away capital gains uh will take that hit for the next six months. It would be great.

[00:44:41]Uh but I don't see it happening. Let's also be real. I don't think any of us see it happening. Let's start taking last comments. Prasad, Tess, Dir in that order. And Gan feel free to come in if you want to respond to something. Yeah.

[00:44:50]Prasad.

[00:44:52]>> Yeah. I think any any kind of controls in terms of lifestyle people are not going to adhere to unless there is a price tag associated with it. It's as simple as this. We're driving on highways and expressways and we have our fast tag and the tolls we pay. Tomorrow if they increase the toll, we're going to be I'll come on BKA show and yell and scream and all that, but I still have to pass by that highway and I'm going to pay for it. I still have to do my PUC certification every 6 months and if they put a tax on that, then I have to pay for it. These are short-term measures.

[00:45:26]What was the speech last night for? It was primarily to warn the country that this war has. He didn't give the speech on February 27th before the war. He gave the speech after the war. So it means it's a clear signal that we had economic we are having serious economic problems because of the war. And so he has I don't think he has actually uh asked us to be caution be very you know careful about how we spend and how we live. More than that, he's basically saying, "Guys, I know it's not going to be easy for you all, but 48 hours and the price of petrol and diesel is going to go up."

[00:46:04]>> It was an indirect message saying, "Get ready for it." So, I went and filled my gas tank of the car, whatever 1,000, 2,000, whatever. You know, you get that little little cheap thrill you get out of that, saying, "I beat the system at least one time." So, I went and did that. And uh yeah, I mean my in fact my 7 series guzzles more than Tessine because Tessine bought a brand new one.

[00:46:23]His is new. Mine is older. So it's more fuel inefficient than his. But you know I agree with Tessine. We work hard and so we are enjoying it. You know what we have to cut down our enjoyment a little bit and have to bear the consequences of all of these to be able >> and that's AND AND THAT'S MY POINT. I'm not I'm not I'm I'm you know I'm not a sort of >> for a temporary period of time for a temporary period of time. There is the role of the state and I want to ask all three of you know if you want to respond to prasadin you said why you create thousand more rich people instead of punishing this is my hard-earned money and that's what beats people to take their money outside India those who can create capital point taken but there is the role of the state the role of the state the role of any state is to protect its most vulnerable people therefore you cannot have policies that are uniformally applicable like I'm not comfortable with that always not in a crisis I know that I'll be tagged to be the lefty. I'm anything but. But just a thought there. How do you react to it?

[00:47:21]See, neither am I comfortable with that.

[00:47:23]I am duty bound to contribute to my nation and to those who don't have. But that must be welfareism. Every Indian must get the same healthare that my mother gets. Every Indian should get the same education that my son gets. Every Indian must get the same proteins that I get. That is what I want to contribute my taxes for. Not for Lari Bhana, not for in the middle of a Bihar election you put 10,000 rupees in people's accounts of my money. That is not what welfareism is. Every Indian should get free transportation and world-class transportation. I think they deserve it.

[00:47:55]I want that. That is why I work hard.

[00:47:58]But not for my money to be taken away.

[00:48:00]You talk Prasad spoke about tolls.

[00:48:02]Baboos don't pay don't pay money on tolls. They get our car. They get free patrol. It is an unfair system. And when we make it, we are again tax for it and made to feel bad. I want to contribute to my country. Just imagine India has the highest number of high network individuals leaving this country. Why?

[00:48:18]These are the top brains, the richest people. The people who give yan on national TV about nationalism are all giving it from Dubai. The most number of houses bought in Dubai are of Indians and a lot of them when I go to Dubai are BJP MPs. Let the government, it's serious, put out a list of the BJP MPs and MLAs who got a house in Dubai right now. You're very close to UA. put it out if they have the guts. The problem is the government only wants and they and the government will be in trouble that look at the list of the baboos who have all the baboos have house in Dubai and come with me all of y'all come with me to Dubai. You'll see all of these people hanging in Dubai and Singapore. That is what this government has done. It's brought back socialism with a vengeance and that is terrible. I want to contribute. They're giving people cups.

[00:48:58]>> To be fair to to to be fair, your the party the political side you support doesn't criticize the government for many things but not on their welfare schemes. If they listened to me they would be in government but they don't.

[00:49:09]>> Okay. All right. You have a sentence and then gets the closing word. Yeah.

[00:49:13]Prasad.

[00:49:14]>> Yeah. Yeah. It is to The point I bet you you go audit all of the properties in Dubai that you are accusing the MPs have bought. They have not bought a single there's not a single property they have bought. It's all their drivers who have done it.

[00:49:28]>> Yes.

[00:49:29]>> So okay. So basically fiddle the system is what you're actually saying. Dh let me give you the closing word.

[00:49:34]I I I I I'll just make a point on policy since I'm a policy person, not a politician. Uh I think there there are uh I mean this is a unusual time. Uh but there are policy solutions right now. Uh which as as we have outlined in terms of cutting taxes on fuel or in terms of cutting uh long-term capital gains tax or you know other ways to attract foreign investment and foreign direct investment. I think those should be deployed. uh and I think uh you know even on uh populism uh and on welfare I think you know where the mindset needs to change so I think if the prime minister really wants to change the mindset of the country on something I would really like him to talk to the country on welfare and uncontrolled populism because nothing is a freebie ultimately somebody pays for it all of us pay for it not only Tessine and Prasad with their seven series but everybody pays tax everybody pays GST uh including the poorest person uh and even if they don't pay income tax they are paying GST. Ultimately you know all of us are going to foot the bill uh whether we are rich or poor and the poor will disproportionately foot it because they have less money uh right so tessine and all of us can still afford little >> I think I think if you want to talk about mindset change that's the one I think these tokenism uh you know in terms of change of behavior and so on is fine there's nothing wrong with it but I don't think it'll make a one inch of difference uh price signals may policy change may uh but if the prime minister really wants to invest in uh buying set change uh then let that be the let that be the priority uh you know what price uh we are paying for freebies including in this difficult time.

[00:51:15]>> Well will the crisis become a opportunity to create capacity? Gar sorry you had a thought. I would say that next Sunday he should devote the monkey bath as a followup exactly to this question that there is I mean I don't blame him because it's not the BJP it's the opposition as much which actually has but there is a race to the bottom and if we want to really achieve our future goals if you want to create jobs again. It is we have to get a all party consensus. There has to be a clever way to get out of this because we are in it. This is really it's not the gold or any of these things. That's really the big issue. This is the issue that's going to destroy our future.

[00:52:12]>> All right. On that somber note, I think it's fair to say that we should be buckling up for tougher times. As has been mentioned here, they will hit some uh of our people more than others. And the big question is what will the government do? Tinker or use the crisis as an opportunity to create hard capacity and uh accelerated growth. U rare consensus in this conversation of people who often don't agree on almost anything else should tell you something.

[00:52:39]We leave it there. Gcharandas Dhay Punavala Prasad Duburi and earlier to Anurra Naidu. Thank you so much and see you soon.

[00:52:48]>> It's great to see you here. Thank you for watching our work. If you haven't subscribed yet, don't forget to click the bell icon and subscribe to your story and support independent robust journalism.