John Swinney faces GRILLING from MSPs over Peter Murrell embezzlement scandal

Added: 2026-06-01

[00:00:02]Good afternoon, colleagues. Before we move to leaders' questions, will those backbench members who wish to ask a question, please remember to press your button when Alex Cole-Hamilton rises to speak.

[00:00:14]And please don't start with to ask the First Minister.

[00:00:18]First Minister or some other beginning is fine. And backbenchers will have one question to let as many members in, so be no supplementaries for backbenchers.

[00:00:28]However, we move first to leaders' questions.

[00:00:31]I call Anas Sarwar.

[00:00:33]>> Thank you, Presiding Officer.

[00:00:35]This week, Peter Murrell, the former CEO of the SNP, pled guilty to embezzling over £400,000 of supporters' hard-earned cash. He will have to answer for his crimes, and that will be a matter for the courts.

[00:00:49]But questions remain about the deeper culture that allowed him to commit and think he could get away with his crimes.

[00:00:56]A culture that's been a hallmark of not just how the SNP run their party, but also how they govern the country. A culture of secrecy and cover-up, where the public are not told the truth, dissenters are vilified, and careers destroyed. Where protecting the party and the people at the top is more important than the country. A sick and twisted belief that the cause is bigger than anything. So, will John Swinney apologize to all those that have been the victims of this dangerous culture?

[00:01:29]>> First Minister.

[00:01:30]>> Presiding Officer, I I've said in answer to the urgent question that I responded to on Tuesday and in my public remarks on Monday that I'm appalled at the conduct of Peter Murrell. And as the police statement said on Monday, this was a lengthy and extremely complex case due to the scale of criminality over a 12-year period and the lengths Peter Murrell went to try and cover his tracks. So, there is a terrible example here of behavior and a breach of trust in public office, which I unreservedly condemn. And I have made that abundantly clear. And the members of my party who have lost out as a consequence of seeing their donations and contributions used for the purposes for which they are intended. And I'm one of those people because I'm a contributor to the SNP. Um our as are all my colleagues. Um our people who have uh had lived with the consequences of this totally unacceptable actions. Now, in relation to So, these issues have been addressed by a lengthy police investigation and Peter Murrell is now facing the consequences of those actions. As for the remainder of Mr. Sarwar's comments, can I simply say this?

[00:02:46]Mr. Sarwar peddled all this for the last 5 years, unreservedly aided by his deputy sitting beside him.

[00:02:54]And the people of Scotland made their verdict on the 7th of May, and they returned it.

[00:03:02]And they returned 58 SNP MSPs to this Parliament, and the Labour Party were reduced in their number.

[00:03:10]I think Mr. Sarwar should change his script because his script is not working.

[00:03:17]>> Mr. Sarwar.

[00:03:18]Mr. Presiding Officer, that arrogant uh disposition from John Swinney is what destroyed so many people's lives and his own political party. Because John Swinney's been at the heart of the SNP for 30 years. This is a culture he helped build, enable, and defend. So, I say to the SNP benches, many of your colleagues and supporters were victims of this culture.

[00:03:45]And many you now sit with were part of it or benefited from that culture. So, yes, Peter Murrell is responsible for his crimes, but secrecy and cover-up go far beyond one individual or one case.

[00:03:59]At its heart is an SNP culture where secrecy became normal, dissent dangerous, and people learned that speaking out carried a heavy price. All while those at the top of the SNP machine operated without scrutiny.

[00:04:15]Yesterday, we called for a parliamentary inquiry as this is now a matter of public trust and integrity in office.

[00:04:22]John Swinney now says he believes in honesty and transparency. So, prove it.

[00:04:28]Will he back a parliamentary inquiry?

[00:04:32]>> First Minister.

[00:04:35]>> No, I won't back a public public public parliamentary inquiry on this issue. And the reason why I won't back a parliamentary inquiry is that we've just had a police investigation which has gone on for 5 years.

[00:04:49]And that police investigation has identified criminality as the as the source of this particular issue, and that is now been remedied in the courts. So, I don't think there is anything a parliamentary inquiry can add to a 5-year forensic police investigation that has resulted in the successful prosecution of an individual and his guilty plea. So, what I would rather do is concentrate on the priorities of the people of Scotland as I always do. Whether that's reducing waiting times in our hospitals or providing the support to first-time buyers or making sure we expand early learning and child care. That's what I'm going to do cuz I'm a First Minister on Scotland's side.

[00:05:37]>> [applause] >> Anas Sarwar, presiding officer, a parliamentary inquiry is not to look into the criminality. That's, of course, for the police. This inquiry is to look at the culture, the process of decision-making, and lessons for the future. It's to answer the many questions that the public have. That requires light and transparency, not the usual John Swinney and SNP playbook to shut down or deflect, because we've seen the dangerous outcomes of this culture.

[00:06:08]Victims victims who reported the abuse by Patrick Grady threatened with legal and disciplinary action. SNP officials bullied and forced out by a First Minister for trying to reveal Murrell's crimes. Female MSPs bugged by SNP staff and then ignored by party leaders. Seven North Lanarkshire councilors forced out of the party for raising concerns about pedophile Jordan Linden. A culture that puts victims last as if they're a threat to the cause. So, he has a choice. Will he back a public I'm sorry, a parliamentary inquiry, or will he double down on protecting a culture that he helped build that enabled the man he appointed to embezzle more than 400,000 pounds?

[00:06:59]>> [applause] >> First Minister.

[00:07:03]>> That was an astonishing attempt at victim-blaming by Anas Sarwar, and he should be ashamed of himself in what he said.

[00:07:15]There is one person and one person alone who is responsible for the embezzlement of my party's funds, and that's Peter Murrell.

[00:07:24]And when I became leader of the SNP, I promised to my party that the party would have open dialogue and debate and scrutiny within our party, and that is precisely what I have delivered to the SNP. Just one of the many promises I I gave to the SNP and to the people of Scotland. I also promised that I would unite my party and I succeeded in uniting my party, which is why there's 58 of us over here and there's 17 of them over there.

[00:07:57]>> [applause] >> And my And my last word to Mr. Sarwar on this subject is I would gently say to him, "People in glass houses should not throw stones." Cuz he knows that the Labour Party is up to its neck in difficulty, whether it's about live criminal cases that involve former members of this Parliament or whether it's Peter Mandelson and his influence over the Labour government. Anas Sarwar hasn't got a leg to stand on and taking me to task on these issues.

[00:08:26]>> [applause] >> Mark Monford.

[00:08:37]>> Today, we are importing 70% of our gas from Norwegian gas fields in the North Sea over the fence from our own that we're shutting down.

[00:08:47]Even the Norwegian energy minister thinks that is daft. Will the First Minister now state categorically the Scottish government will support the licensing of our own North Sea gas?

[00:08:59]>> First Minister.

[00:09:00]>> The Scottish government's position is that if new developments are to be taken forward, they have to pass a climate compatibility assessment to ensure that the extraction of those resources is compatible with our journey to net zero.

[00:09:15]And also in that judgment, there has to be consideration given to the issues around security of energy supply.

[00:09:22]Now, the first part of my answer in relation to climate compatibility assessments is essentially a requirement to be compatible with the most recent Finn judgment on consenting of oil and gas licenses.

[00:09:35]The second part of my answer about of supply is to take into account the much more volatile circumstances that we now face as a consequence of what has happened in the Middle East in recent weeks and months.

[00:09:48]So, that is the position of the Scottish government and obviously the decision-making on this question is a matter for the United Kingdom government to take that decision as to whether or not those tests can be satisfied as a consequence of any new licenses that are issued.

[00:10:05]>> Mark Roford.

[00:10:06]>> So, I have to say that that is a pretty mealy-mouthed response from the First Minister because all that means is that we'll end up being tied up in court action trying to work out where these tests are made and in the meantime a thousand jobs a month have been lost in in the in in the north in the in in the North Sea.

[00:10:22]So, can the First Minister actually give unequivocal support for example for licensing Jackdaw and and Rosebank and new drilling licenses and actually step forward on the fact that the licensing and planning is in the in control of the Scottish government and the Scottish government need to stand forward and make this happen for the people of the North East?

[00:10:43]>> First Minister.

[00:10:44]>> I I understand that the seriousness of the point that Mr. Roford puts to me, but I it's not it's not me that's deferring to court actions. It's me living within the realities of living within the rule of law which as I've set out to Parliament matters very much to me in how I conduct myself publicly.

[00:11:02]So, the court judgment in the in the in the Finch judgment requires that climate compatibility assessment to be undertaken. So, it's not something that we can wish away. It's not something that is mealy-mouthed. It's a reflection of the legal reality around about us.

[00:11:17]But, the point I make to Mr. Roford is that I do recognize that circumstances and dynamics have changed because of the situation in the Middle East. And of course, one of the worries that we have about supplies about jet fuel. And of course, jet fuel was manufactured at Grangemouth, which the Labour government, despite Anas Sarwar telling me in an election debate in 2024 would be saved by a Labour government, was closed by a Labour government. So, I think we've we've we've got very careful judgments to make on this question, but the assurance I give Parliament today, and crucially that I give to oil and gas workers in the northeast of Scotland, is that the Scottish government is going to act with all intervention we can to make sure we secure the future of those individuals affected by the downturn in oil and gas.

[00:12:04]>> Malcolm Offord.

[00:12:05]>> Thank you. Um during the election, the First Minister promised that uh his first debate in this chamber would be on the constitution, >> [snorts] >> and followed with a request for Section 30 notice, and he did that.

[00:12:17]Uh during the election, the Labour government promised that they would reject any application for such a Section 30 notice, and they have done that.

[00:12:26]And during the election, the First Minister promised that if his Section 30 notice application was rejected, he had a cunning plan to get a referendum.

[00:12:34]The debate was on Tuesday. It was rejected on Wednesday.

[00:12:38]This is Thursday. Is this now the time for the First Minister to reveal his cunning plan, or has Peter Murrell stolen that as well?

[00:12:46]>> First Minister.

[00:12:47]>> Let me just say that uh that on the uh point of substance that uh Malcolm Offord puts to me is an important one, because it gets to the heart of our democratic politics. I'm not going to just cow cow tow to 10 Downing Street.

[00:13:03]The people of Scotland have decided this Parliament's got an independence majority, and I'm going to use that independence majority to deliver independence for our country.

[00:13:13]>> [applause] >> Gillian Mackay.

[00:13:21]>> The Scottish Greens were the only party at this election to say that we need to use our full taxation powers to raise more money, particularly from the wealth of the super rich. Today, the Tax Justice Scotland coalition has written to the First Minister calling for a post-election reality check on Scotland's public finances. In their words, if we want a fairer and greener country, we need to invest in it, and you can't promise a better Scotland and avoid paying for it. We know public sector reform is badly needed, but trade unions in particular are rightly concerned that reform is usually a euphemism for slashing budgets and cutting jobs.

[00:13:56]Does the First Minister agree with the Scottish Greens and Tax Justice Scotland that we should explore all options for taxing wealth before cutting public sector jobs?

[00:14:07]>> First Minister.

[00:14:08]As as Gillian Mackay will know from her experience in the last parliamentary session, any budget proposition is a combination of tax and spending decisions, and of course the government considers in in in all of those requirements the opportunities for to to raise tax and the consequences of raising tax and the opportunities to undertake public expenditure and the impact that that public expenditure can have.

[00:14:36]I think as we approach this discussion, obviously we're going to have to have very open discussions that Deputy First Minister will lead those on behalf of the government, but Ivan McKee will also be engaged in discussions about how we secure greater impact from the way in which we undertake public expenditure. And of course of course I totally respect and understand trade union concern. We've also got to be open to new ways of delivering public services. I've seen some fantastic work being delivered which is cost less, but delivered better outcomes for individuals. And that's at the heart of the work that Ivan McKee is bringing forward, making sure that we improve public services whilst delivering financial sustainability to the public purse. And of course without a majority in this parliament, the government's going to have to work with others to come to common positions, and I look forward to taking those discussions forward with many colleagues across the political spectrum.

[00:15:29]>> Gillian Mackay >> I appreciate that response from the First Minister, and I will come on in a second to an idea that we have on how we deliver more from the public sector. And I'm sure the new cabinet secretary for public sector reform will have plenty of difficult decisions to make. But as the First Minister reflected, it's crucial that it's not just looking for cuts dressed up as efficiencies, but actually how we continue to to build on the work that the public sector is doing, driving up productivity and well-being so that workers feel valued and are able to do their jobs well. Last session, the Scottish Government The Scottish Greens secured a pioneering trial of a 4-day working week in the public sector, which resulted in a 25% drop in mental health sick days and no loss of service delivery or productivity. Whilst our finances remain stretched, rolling out a 4-day week would help transform public sector work at no extra cost to the public purse. So, will the First Minister commit to expanding the 4-day week in the public sector?

[00:16:27]>> First Minister >> I I'm certainly very happy to consider these issues. It's obviously a bit early in the parliamentary session for me to be giving commitments quite as firm as Gillian Mackay is inviting from me today.

[00:16:39]But I do think there is a a deadly serious point at the heart of our question, which is the environment which public servants are working really matters.

[00:16:47]And if that environment is essentially burdened by excessive bureaucracy or by slowness in decision-making, then that can obviously have a negative effect on individuals in carrying out their responsibilities. And these considerations are at the heart of what Ivan McKee is looking for to make sure that we utilize to the maximum the effectiveness of public expenditure so that public servants are able to fulfill their roles. And also that we are able to deliver for outcomes for members of the public in Scotland.

[00:17:18]>> Gillian Mackay >> If it's a wee bit early for giving cast-iron commitments, the First Minister might not enjoy my next question. The Scottish Greens have already shown we can work constructively and creatively to raise more money for public services. Income tax changes driven by Green MSPs over the last decade mean that our public services are now better off to the tune of 1.8 billion pounds each year.

[00:17:40]But we can't fix Scotland's public finances without fixing how we fund our local councils.

[00:17:45]For too long, the claim that we need consensus to replace the council tax has been used as an excuse not to take action.

[00:17:52]If the First Minister actually wants to scrap the council tax to fund public services, the Scottish Greens will work with them. That would be a parliamentary majority for change. So, will the First Minister work with us to scrap council tax in this Parliament?

[00:18:09]>> Well, First Minister >> As as as I told Parliament on Tuesday, I want this to be a bold Parliament. So, there's got to be reform in this Parliament. We can't You know, we we simply can't go on as we're going on just now. There are legitimate issues about the council tax and its fairness, and these are issues with which I have a great deal of sympathy. The Deputy First Minister is meeting with local authority leaders later on today to start with the dialogue and the constructive dialogue I want to see in place, and the government will be of course willing to engage with the Scottish Green Party on all issues, including reform and abolition potential abolition the council tax. But we have to put in place reliable means that will support the public finances and the delivery of public services, and that will be the key consideration that's brought to those discussions by the Scottish Government.

[00:18:57]>> Russell Findlay >> Thank you, Presiding Officer.

[00:18:59]The Peter Murrell scandal isn't just about the SNP's toxic internal culture.

[00:19:06]This goes to the heart of government and Scotland's justice system.

[00:19:11]John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon didn't stop Peter Murrell, they enabled him.

[00:19:17]Sturgeon warned SNP members to stop asking difficult questions and John Swinney assured everyone that the SNP's finances were sound.

[00:19:29]Their shield of protection gave Murrell a license to steal and people want to know why Nicola Sturgeon wasn't in the dock beside her husband. So, will John Swinney back our calls for the Lord Advocate to publish all information relating to this case?

[00:19:53]First Minister.

[00:19:57]>> The Mr. Finlay is an experienced parliamentarian and also an experienced journalist who's looked at many issues of criminality.

[00:20:06]And over his career, and of course this was pointed out by the Crown Office to Mr. Finlay yesterday, the Crown does not disclose the rationale for them taking decisions other than where they pursue prosecutions against individuals. And of course, the Crown has undertaken a successful prosecution here and I pay tribute to the Crown Office and Police Scotland.

[00:20:27]The Crown also made clear to Mr. Finlay yesterday that the Lord Advocate uh had no involvement, nor did the Solicitor General, who are the law officers in this case, because they never have an involvement in cases involving political figures because that is all undertaken by independent counsel and experienced Crown counsel within the Crown Office.

[00:20:45]So, what and what that assurance that was given by the Crown to Mr. Finlay yesterday is designed to do is to explain that the highest standards have been applied to a deep and forensic criminal investigation which resulted in the prosecution of one person and one person alone. And if Mr. Finlay had a shred of decency about him, he would express his respect for the judicial system in Scotland, his respect for the justice system in Scotland, and leave the professional officers of our police service and our professional prosecutors to do their job, which is exactly what they've done.

[00:21:26]>> Russell Findlay >> The usual desperate deflection from John Swinney. He's trying to shut down scrutiny, and we won't stand for it.

[00:21:35]John Swinney says that the SNP is the victim, although there are new reports that taxpayers' money was also stolen.

[00:21:43]>> Was it?

[00:21:43]>> So, if the ex- if the SNP are the victim, did they exercise their right in law to seek a review of the Crown Office's prosecution decision? And will John Swinney now follow the money, which bought a camper van, Mont Blanc pens, a home library? Is he taking legal action to force Peter Murrell to pay compensation, or has John Swinney asked the Crown Office to use proceeds of crime laws to recover luxury stolen goods from Peter Murrell and Nicola Sturgeon?

[00:22:24]>> First Minister Um >> If there's anything desperate about all of this, it's the desperation of a man who's led the Conservative Party into oblivion asking me questions about this issue today, because that is what Russell Findlay is doing today. Now, as a >> Will the First Minister answer, please?

[00:22:47]>> As a matter of fact, in court on Monday, the Advocate Depute made a verbal motion for confiscation in terms of section 92 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, and a decision on this matter will ultimately be for the court to make and given that as the presiding officer told us on Tuesday, there remain live proceedings until sentence, I am unable to say any more beyond that.

[00:23:13]Second point I will make is in relation to the suggestion that there was public money involved in all of this. The only issue that could apply there is in relation to a policy development grant from the Electoral Commission, but I want to reassure Parliament that in order to receive funding, a party needs to apply to the Electoral Commission outlining the work that will be done in the forthcoming year and submit an audited report to the Electoral Commission outlining what grant funding has been spent upon and it's only on receipt of the audited report that the final payment of the grant is made by the Electoral Commission. So, that should that confirms the point that I made to Parliament on Tuesday that this is SNP supporters money that has been embezzled and not public money.

[00:23:58]And the last thing I'll say to Russell Findlay is this.

[00:24:02]The Scottish National Party is a party that has been affected by the loss of the resources as a result of this case. But what the Scottish National Party can rely on now is the most effective arrangements in place to guarantee the resources that we use which we use to maximum effect. And we used them to maximum effect on the 7th of May when the SNP won 58 seats in this Parliament and the Conservatives were reduced to a hopeless rump of 12 of them over there. There. They may grin all they like, but those of us who for the for the seventh time in a row in this Parliament successfully got rid of the Conservatives, the people of Scotland can breathe a sigh of relief that they're over there redundant as a consequence of the election.

[00:24:53]>> [applause] >> I Cole-Hamilton Thank you very much presiding officer.

[00:25:03]The presiding officer, during the Easter holidays, at least ferry eight ferries were out of action at the same time.

[00:25:09]Every Scottish island faced disruption.

[00:25:12]They are overdue serious compensation and I hope the First Minister will finally extend that to the coastal communities affected, too. Now, those businesses are looking towards the summer holidays and they are wondering what they will mean for them. Because last week, technology of the 19th century came to the rescue of passengers of the 21st when the Waverley paddle steamer stepped in for a stricken CalMac vessel. John Swinney must have winced with embarrassment at that reality. So, can I ask the First Minister, is Scotland's ferry fleet ready for the summer?

[00:25:48]First Minister I acknowledge that there have been acute challenges in the ferry network over the last few weeks and months and when I went to the Western Isles during the election campaign, I made clear and by the way, I went to the Western Isles by ferry and I came back by ferry. I didn't just fly in for a day trip. I went and I listened to people about the ferries issues and what I and what I confirmed and what I confirmed was that if the SNP government was reelected, we would put in place financial assistance to deal with the damage which I acknowledge was undertaken to many communities as a consequence of the disruption during the Easter holidays and I'm happy to confirm to Parliament today that such a fund will be made available by the Scottish government and we're now looking at the terms and the basis of that. I hear Mr. Cole-Hamilton's point about coastal communities and will reflect on that particular point. In relation to is the ferry network equipped for the summer?

[00:26:47]When I looked at the service strength this morning before I came down to to the chamber. Um on most routes, the ferry service is operating appropriately this morning, and um that's been the case for a number of days. I look at this on a regular basis cuz I am keen to make sure that island communities are well served by the ferry network, and I will continue to do so, as will the cabinet secretary for transport, who's engaging on all of these questions. So, I do think the ferry network is um is going to be uh ready for the summer. Um it'll have to be because the First Minister's going to be using it to go on his summer holidays.

[00:27:25]>> Alex Cole-Hamilton.

[00:27:27]I'm grateful for that reply, but no wonder the people of the Western Isles sent the First Minister and his party packing. And lots of coastal communities and island communities are turning away from the SNP because of this. Remember, the New York Times told its readers that while our Scottish islands are beautiful, in their words, Presiding Officer, good luck getting on or off them. Scotland's islands are a great option for a summer getaway. They are beautiful, but only if we can get holiday makers over to their hotels, to their cafes, and to their distilleries. Presiding Officer, the ferry fleet is more prone than ever before to break down and disruption. It is not resilient. Everyone who lives there knows that all too well. So, has the First Minister picked up the phone to ferry operators and governments elsewhere in the UK and in Europe to find extra vessels to keep those routes operational and our island communities profitable?

[00:28:26]>> First Minister.

[00:28:27]>> Of of of of course we've done that because we've been using the MV Alfred on the Troon to Brodick route uh with which the Presiding Officer may well be familiar. Um we've also um purchased the Loch Frisa, which services the Oban to Craignure uh route on the Isle of Mull.

[00:28:45]And of course, we have now in service the MV Isle of Iona, which is uh servicing the route to Islay.

[00:28:52]The Glen Sannox is servicing the route to Castlebay at the present moment. We have another vessel coming from the Charmery yard in the summer, another one in the autumn, another one in the spring. The Glen Rosa is to join service, so there's more vessels coming into the fleet. The SNP government has already put nine new vessels into the fleet, and we've got 11 more coming into the fleet. So, I assure Mr. Cole-Hamilton that CalMac and Northlink Ferries are always working to make sure that we have in place the connections. And I think there's an important message that our islands are open for business. That when I was in the Western Isles in the election campaign, I heard frustration from local businesses, yes, about the ferry network, but also about some of the the amplification of these issues, which indicated it was ever more difficult for people to get to the islands, which is damaging to the island communities.

[00:29:46]And the last thing while I'm on my feet, and I and I and I and I really can't resist the temptation of this, is that Mr. Cole-Hamilton said that island communities were turning their backs on the SNP. And obviously, I I grieve the loss of my dear friend Dr. Alasdair Allan in the Western Isles, an absolutely outstanding parliamentarian.

[00:30:04]And I very much regret the fact that we were unable to hold onto Kate Forbes and and Ross and and and Skye, Lochaber, and Badenoch.

[00:30:13]But after 75 years of liberal representation, the people of Shetland did an absolutely wonderful thing, and they sent Hannah Bardell here for the SNP. And we're delighted to welcome her here in the Scottish Parliament.

[00:30:28]>> [applause] >> Now, we now move to backbench questions.

[00:30:38]Leaders' questions have taken some 30 minutes, so I think now folk will appreciate I've got a backbenchers question session on Tuesday. Uh what I'll say to members now is that please ensure you press your buttons because we already have a host of people who are keen to speak, but there are those who sent in very interesting questions I'm quite keen to take, but some of you have not pressed your buttons. So, without further ado, I call Jackie Dunbar.

[00:31:02]>> Thank you, presiding officer. This week there was an announcement uh that the energy cap was going to increase by 13% which is going to have an estimated uh bill rise of £221.

[00:31:16]So, uh can I ask what assessment has been made on the impact that this will have on poverty and child poverty in Scotland?

[00:31:26]>> First Minister.

[00:31:27]>> First Minister, obviously the news about the energy price cap is a very serious blow to families around the country because people already wrestling with the cost of living challenges. We all heard that during the election campaign.

[00:31:39]And of course the 13% increase in the energy price cap just makes that situation ever more challenging for individuals and families around the country. Uh the Scottish government will take all the action we can take through some of the measures I set out during the election around for example the affordability of travel, the affordability of the food shop. But of course what we need is the action from the United Kingdom government who promised to reduce fuel bills, energy bills by £300, but energy bills are going to be higher than when the Labour government came to office. Just another example of the failure of the Labour government at Westminster. And it's now a strong and compelling argument for what we'll debate and discuss this afternoon, for the energy importance of making sure that the energy generating potential of Scotland is in Scotland's hands so that people can benefit from the strength of Scottish energy.

[00:32:35]>> Maggie Chapman.

[00:32:36]>> Thank you, presiding officer. The First Minister will remember the publication of the Gillies report last year that contained recommendations about university governance and financial management, including on issues of transparency and staff engagement.

[00:32:48]Today, Aberdeen University Court discusses restructuring, job cuts, increasing staff workload, and more. And yet, staff haven't been properly engaged, unions haven't received information required about fair work and and other questions, and Senate has not been properly consulted. Can I ask the First Minister what his view is of how the Gillies recommendations are being understood and implemented by institutions, how public money is being used in ways that will have significant negative impacts on staff and students in Aberdeen and elsewhere, and will he agree to meet with the campus unions as soon as possible?

[00:33:23]>> First Minister Well, sir, the issues that Maggie Chapman raises are very important because, as the Gillies report found, there were significant issues that it looked into, the issues at the University of Dundee, which were of an exceptional character. But, the process that is being undertaken by the University of Aberdeen to ensure that it is able to sustain its activities has to be undertaken in line with the principles that the government expects and um are contained within the Gillies report. Of course, the University of Aberdeen operates as an arms-length independent institution, so it is responsible for its own governance. But, ministers would expect the University of Aberdeen and any university to pay due account to the uh requirements that were the issues that were set out in the Gillies review, and also the terms of the availability of funding through the Scottish Funding Council. So, I would simply encourage the University of Aberdeen to engage constructively with all interested parties to ensure that that is the case. In relation to a meeting with the trade unions, uh I know that the Minister for tertiary education, Jamie Hepburn, would be very happy to meet with the trade unions, and uh we will make arrangements for that to take place.

[00:34:35]>> Laura Mitchell >> Thank you presiding officer. This week the CBI revealed that 105,000 renewable jobs are contributing over 10 billion pounds to the Scottish economy. Reform would end that industry tomorrow and the Tories inflicted the tax on Scotland's energy that is costing 1,000 jobs per month. The First Minister knows Scotland needs oil and gas supply chains and skills to deliver these renewable jobs.

[00:35:02]So can I ask the First Minister what action his government is taking to support our offshore industry and the renewables industry to drive forward Scotland's economy?

[00:35:12]>> First Minister >> I thank Laura Mitchell for her question and welcome her to her place in Parliament as the member from from Murray and look forward to her contribution. The issues that she raises of course in relation to renewable energy and oil and gas are central to the economic interests of her constituency and I know that she will champion them effectively in this Parliament. In relation to the CBI report, I welcome very much the CBI report and I had the opportunity to reflect at the CBI's annual Scottish lunch last Friday with the cabinet secretary for the economy on the importance of a collaboration between government, business, our renewable energy and oil and gas companies, our universities and other players within our economy, our local authorities and I had the opportunity to reinforce this message when I opened the new offshore renewable energy the renewable energy engineering center for Hitachi UK yesterday in the city of Glasgow on the importance of creating a sense of common purpose within our economy to make sure that we are all taking measures that will support the oil and gas sector, support renewables and make sure that we accelerate the transition to net zero.

[00:36:23]Now what we need to see is practical measures taken to strengthen the financial viability of oil and gas activity, which comes through the removal of the energy profits levy, which is long overdue, and the acceleration of the steps to consenting around the grid, which is necessary on renewable energy developments. And that will help to realize the ambitions of that Laura Mitchell has set out today.

[00:36:46]And I give her the assurance that the Scottish government will argue for all of these provisions.

[00:36:52]>> Backbenchers have been very well behaved with short, sharp questions. I would like short shorter and sharper responses to allow more to come in. Uh Claire Baker.

[00:37:01]>> Um thank you, Presiding Officer. The learning review into the case of family C in Glasgow has been published in recent days. Commonly known as the Bisti House, this report evidences the multitude of institutional failures that resulted in children enduring a decade of degrading, violent, and sexual abuse at the hand of adults who were supposed to be caring for them.

[00:37:22]The heinous crimes committed are truly awful and heartbreaking. That this was able to happen in modern Scotland, where we have a multitude of children's policies and strategies that are supposed to protect children, recognize their rights, is a disgrace.

[00:37:36]I recognize that the First Minister has given an apology to a scrum of journalists, but that is not equivalent to giving a statement to Parliament. I can ask the First Minister what he has to say to victims and to Parliament about these serious failings.

[00:37:51]>> I I I'm I'm grateful to Claire Baker for raising this important issue, and I agree with her conclusions and her assessment of this report. It is absolutely terrible reading that what has been disclosed. I want to pay tribute at the outset to the children who, in from my reading of the report, have demonstrated extraordinal extraordinary strength and tenacity in being able to convey the suffering that they have experienced. And I express an unreserved apology to each of those children involved. It is clear from my reading of the report that there were serial serious institutional failures in understanding and connecting all of the information that was available. And it is I find I find it difficult to comprehend how that could be the case because the information was so obvious and so compelling. But it demonstrates what has been an issue which has occurred any number of cases on different occasions of the failure of institutions to make connections between information that comes together to therefore necessity action and intervention.

[00:39:00]And that is just one of the key points of learning that must come out of this report. The cabinet secretary for education will be meeting with the city of Glasgow Council to consider this issue and I and it was discussed at cabinet on Tuesday and I want to make sure that the lessons identified in this report are the source of challenge to all child protection committees in the country because I agree fundamentally with the point that Claire Baker makes that it is simply beyond comprehension that such experiences could take place in 21st century Scotland with the policy framework that we have in place. We have to honestly face up to the institutional failure that is involved and I give her the commitment that the government will do so.

[00:39:43]>> Liam Kerr.

[00:39:45]>> Thank you, presiding officer. After releasing more than 1,400 prisoners early, cutting the automatic early release point to less than a third of the sentence, bringing in a presumption against short sentences and all but stopping under 25s from going to prison, Scotland's prison population is nevertheless still at record levels. So, does the First Minister accept that the knee-jerk ham-fisted early release has failed and can he confirm that his government will not bring forward yet another early release scheme to cover up its failure to tackle Scotland's prison capacity crisis.

[00:40:17]>> Yousaf.

[00:40:18]>> First Minister.

[00:40:19]>> The the the the the issues that Liam Kerr raises are serious issues because the prison population is at a very very high level and it's the the level of incarceration is very high at the present moment. Part of that is because of the success of the criminal justice authorities in prosecuting individuals for historic crime and the length of sentences that have been applied. It gives It gives rise to significant issues about prison capacity and that issue is being addressed very directly. The Justice Secretary and I met to discuss this issue yesterday and will be the source of very focused work amongst partners to make sure that we take all the action that is necessary to ensure the prison population can be stabilized and our prisons can operate safely for all concerned.

[00:41:11]>> Keith Brown.

[00:41:14]The First Minister may be aware that 60 families so far in my constituency have had to be evacuated at very short notice from their homes due to underground movement in the former mining community of Coal Norton.

[00:41:27]The distress and uncertainty caused to my constituents, including their children, cannot be overestimated.

[00:41:32]Can the First Minister assure me that the national resilience framework and his government generally will spare no effort in assisting my constituents and in ensuring that the mining remediation agency and the relevant insurance companies fully and quickly discharge their responsibilities and and provide serious support for my constituents as they experience the profound distress of being moved from their homes at short notice?

[00:41:57]>> First Minister.

[00:41:58]>> I I I'm very concerned about the issues that Mr. Brown raises. I'm familiar with the points and I provide him with the assurance that the government's resilience network is actively supporting Coal Manager Council on this question. The mining remediation Agency are actively engaged with the partnership in taking forward the support that is required. I acknowledge the distress and the inconvenience and the anxiety that this causes to Mr. Brown's constituents, and I provide them with the assurance that the government will do all that it can to support the residents concerned and Clackmannanshire Council. And if there are any specific areas in which Mr. Brown would um require assistance from the government, uh he he knows that the government will respond uh very swiftly to any request that he makes of us.

[00:42:44]>> Graham Simpson.

[00:42:46]Thank you. Um when John Swinney was voted in as First Minister last week, he said, "All too often in parliaments, I've watched members celebrate when bold proposals are blocked seemingly for political expediency rather than for any substantial concerns." And he offered to work across party lines because that's what people expect. The last parliament rejected my proposals to introduce a recall system to this place. That was a missed opportunity.

[00:43:18]The First Minister backs recall in principle. So, can I ask if if he would agree to consider how we can best look at this again either by me bringing my proposals back or forming a committee to look at it or some other option.

[00:43:37]>> First Minister.

[00:43:38]>> as Mr. Simpson indicates, I am in principle in support of a recall provision. I think it's necessary for there to be a recall provision in place.

[00:43:47]And I'm open to what is the mechanism by which that is undertaken. Um I think it's um I I I generally consider this to be a rather invidious issue for the government to bring forward because it affects the status of members of parliament.

[00:44:01]Uh so, therefore, I I I think I would rather see this emerge through parliamentary um discussions as opposed to at the initiative of a government bill, for example. But, I am prepared and maybe an issue uh presiding officer that the corporate body may wish to provide some advice about, but essentially, I give Mr. Simpson the assurance that the government would be uh supportive of developing such a proposition if we can agree what is the most appropriate mechanism for doing that. And I I say that simply to respect the fact that I don't think the government should be passing judgment about the role of members of Parliament.

[00:44:34]I don't think that's constitutionally appropriate. But, if that would is if Parliament wished us to consider that, I'd be happy to do so.

[00:44:42]>> And Karen Adam.

[00:44:44]>> Thank you, presiding officer. First Minister, a few weeks ago you visited the Vinery in Banff with me, and you saw the difference that it makes offering a welcome place where people can build confidence, learn new skills, improve well-being, and sometimes find a route into work. With their UK Shared Prosperity funding lost, it now faces closure in a matter of days. And that would be devastating for hundreds of local people and families. Can I ask the First Minister what steps his government can take to engage with the center and help safeguard the services that it provides?

[00:45:18]>> First Minister, as well as the Karen Adam is absolutely right. I had a a lovely visit to the Vinery with her in Banff, and I saw at first hand the tremendous positive impact it has on the lives of individuals tackling social isolation and overcoming some of the challenges of mental well-being that individuals are wrestling with. Um I'd be very happy to explore with Ms. Adam the steps the government could take to try to intervene. The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice would be able to engage on this question, and we'll explore what possibilities there are to safeguard the support that's available through the Vinery.

[00:45:53]>> Thank you, and with apologies to all those members I was unable to take today. That concludes the First Minister's Questions. I suspend the meeting until 2:30.