Day 809 - Saudi prince tells ToI Israel needs to start being 'normal'

[00:00:01][music] Welcome to the Times of Israel's daily briefing. Today is Tuesday, December 23rd. I'm Amanda Borchel Dan here with our US Bureau Chief Jacob Magged. Jacob, thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:00:16]>> Hi Amanda, always good to be with you.

[00:00:18]>> Such a pleasure. And yesterday you published a really interesting interview, very rare interview I should add, with Saudi Arabia's former intelligence chief Prince Turkey al Fasile. So we're going to hear all about that and we're also going to speak about an almost maybe equally rare meetup between US Ambassador Mike Huckabe and some Palestinian Authority officials. To end off with, we'll discuss again a little bit about US Vice President JD Vance's comments on anti-semitism, but some fresh ones this time. So, all of this and more when we're back.

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[00:01:51][music] And we're back. I'm Amanda Borcel Dan here with our US bureau chief, Jacob Maggod. Jacob, how does a normal country act? And I think that's the question that we all took away from your piece in which you interviewed Saudi Arabia's former intelligence officer, Prince Turkey alisel, who told you on Sunday that Riot is currently not entertaining the idea of normalization with Israel until the country begins to act like a normal country. So, I thought that was fascinating as well all of our readers. So, let's just wind it back a little bit and talk about well essentially how did you land this interview, Jacob?

[00:02:39]>> It definitely took some time um and building connections with people around Prince Turkey because Saudi Arabia officially has a policy of not really engaging with Israeli journalists.

[00:02:50]something that's been quite frustrating to deal with. Um especially given that it seems like in a lot of ways the region is changing and even countries like Qatar that don't have formal relationships with Israel, they do um have contact with Israeli journalists, Saudi Arabia has been adamant about not really breaking that policy, at least on the official level. Um and I guess maybe because he's a former. On the other hand, he's a member of the royal family.

[00:03:15]He's the grandson of the founding king and and also the nephew of the the current king. Um so definitely someone who has stature um but I think has been more willing to talk about this issue specifically and actually has done one interview with an Israeli media outlet several years ago. I think dip times were a little bit different then. Um and I approached him through other people again and and he ended up being willing to to answer a series of questions about about this issue. I think he obviously has his own agenda and it's interesting.

[00:03:44]I'm not sure, but I would imagine given how sensitive this this topic is that there's maybe likely some okay that he got from the the official dumb in Riad to to agree to speak with me um on this topic.

[00:03:58]>> Oh, I would imagine that he 100% needed to get some kind of okay and that the message was fully vetted and delivered as a desire, shall we say? But let's talk a little bit more about who he is and you sat down together someplace.

[00:04:16]Where was that?

[00:04:17]>> Uh, no, we spoke virtually. Um, because I wasn't able to fly to Riad for this interview. Maybe maybe if they're happy with it, they'll they'll agree to host me again. I was able to be in Jedha.

[00:04:27]That's what's kind of interesting is that during Biden's first term, uh, he had that that historic visit where he went from Israel directly to Saudi Arabia and he brought with him journalists and I was among there were I think one or two other journalists from Israeli outlets who were able to join.

[00:04:42]So you felt like this was in a we were heading in a direction of if they're willing to engage Israeli journalists then maybe not speaking to them on the record but at least hosting them in Saudi Arabia that this that we were moving towards maybe a normalization agreement. Um things obviously changed since October 7th, but that was one of many indications that that we were moving in that direction.

[00:05:02]>> Right. Okay. And were you speaking in English to each other or was there some kind of translation? Because one of the quotes that you have in the story is almost poetry and I'm just going to read it out just before you answer that question. Saudi Arabia is not considering a normalization deal with Israel. Should Israel become a normal country with normal acceptance of international law, then Saudi Arabia will consider normalization. And it just rolls off the tongue. It's just beautiful. So, what language were you speaking?

[00:05:33]>> Uh, so English, my Arabic is not probably good enough to hold these interviews fully uh in in that language.

[00:05:40]Um, I think that Prince Turkey is someone who's become known, at least in recent years, to to adopt this harsher tone regarding Israel. um it's actually goes further than what you see from the official dumb in Saudi Arabia be it the foreign minister um who does comment on this these issues pretty regularly um or that or NBS himself who is actually if you listen to what he's saying even days before October 7th that that there was a normalization deal in the offing that we were getting closer every day is what he actually said um in September of 2023 um Prince Turkey has a different take on that and he and he shares that in the interview um But what I would say is that even if the tone is harsher than what um is likely something you would hear from the the the people at the top of the government and people still in government um because he's a former intelligence chief. Um I think it's still within the bounds of what you would expect the messaging to be that he's not going to stray completely off of it even if I think he's more uncomfortable with this Israeli government than maybe NBS is. Now, the other quote that jumped out at me was very philosophical, I would say, in a way, and I'll read this one out to you as well. The irony is that while the Arab world has shifted its stance from not recognizing Israel, Israel has shifted its stance from accepting the two-state solution. So hand in hand, this idea of the two-state solution and normalization have to progress in terms of uh the stance from Saudi Arabia that we're understanding. And obviously in Israel, the idea of a two-state solution is pretty much dead right now, aside from some very very much in the peace camp, which are very few in in many ways at this point in time. So So Jacob, let's break it down. What were the main messages from this interview? I think it's something that Saudi officials have said before. Um, this notion of having a pathway towards a Palestinian state in order to agree for for them to agree to a normalization deal. I don't think that was particularly new. I think what was new is that he's willing to speak it to an Israeli uh publication. So, I do think there is desire from Riad to get this message through to an Israeli audience, especially now when things don't seem like we're completely on track. It's interesting. It comes just several weeks where after NBS was in the White House meeting President Trump and President Trump says how he'd like to see Saudi Arabia join the nor the Abraham Accords and NBS says we'd also like to do that. We want to see um be part of a broader peace process but we feel that there needs to be a pathway.

[00:08:14]Um, and I tried to ask a little bit in terms of specifically what that looks like. And I think he talked about having uh Prince Turkey talked about having a process to getting there. Um, and and moving into that moving in the direction of some sort of two-state solution um, based on what what the Saudis want to be the pre-1967 borders. So that's not something that that the Israeli government or most of the public is is in a place to agree to that. There is some polling that suggests if it's framed in a way that it's part of a broader um regional um effort with Saudi Arabia normalizing ties with Israel and broader Israeli acceptance in the region that there is some public opinion that does sway in favor of making compromises. But I think once uh politicians I think on on the right are framing or trying to campaign against it. I'm sure those numbers will go back down as I think there's a lot of maybe not fear-mongering but it definitely an effective argument against it in Israel after October 7th. Um the idea of rec seeding from territory is not something that's very popular. Um on the other hand I think as Israel gets in increasingly isolated in the international community maybe some of these arguments in favor of some of these compromises are will start to resonate. Now, one of the things you pointed out in your piece is the fact that before all of the Abraham Accords were finalized, there was some kind of leverage and in the uh issue of annexation, right? Netanyahu was able to pull back annexation, which was really the buzz of the moment in order to solidify these Abraham Accords. And then you also point out in your piece that well perhaps there's been kind of a workaround around around annexation and do you feel like that is the the driving philosophy of what how the Arab world is seeing what's happening in terms of the settlement movement right now under this current Netanyahu government.

[00:10:09]>> Yeah, absolutely. I think um what he argues is that there was a commitment um to regarding the Abraham Accords in terms of not changing facts on the ground. My understanding is he was referring to this annexation pledge to take that off the table, which is what Israel did um after their pledges to kind of move forward with that within months before the Abraham Accords came about. Um but then what we're seeing on the ground is there's still uh an expansion of Israel's footprint in the West Bank. Um be it through the different outposts that have sprung up, dozens of them over the past couple years since October 7th, but also just the legalization of outposts that we've saw even in the past couple days with the government um approving. I think there was 19 communities that were given full-fledged settlement status. The vast majority of them are outposts that were once considered illegal under intern under Israeli law that Israel is now saying actually that we're going to put a kosher stamp on them um even if we didn't necessarily approve the way that they were made. We do agree with the broader effort to maintain control of area C to prevent that being uh transferred to is to the Palestinians under any sort of peace deal. Um and and I think the the Arab world is responding in kind by saying if that's going to be the approach, at least Saudi Arabia for now is not going to be talking about normalization. And I think um Prince Turkey was one of the people I think who said in recent years that even if if the UAE that was their prize for getting uh for normaliz or their demand for normalizing which was to to shove at least the dur annexation then the the Saudi Arabia which is seen as the leader of the Arab and Muslim world and a protector of the holy sites um then they have to get something much bigger than that. Um, so it's not just going to have to be it's going to have to be something maybe related to these outposts that have been uh given de facto legalization or or any of the steps that the government has been taking. Um, but but I think we're not there at the we were there maybe and that's a little bit what I've reported about is that we were there in terms of having some of these conversations of what that Palestinian component would be, what that pathway would look like. I think we're we've taken a few steps back. Um, but once we get back to those conversations, hopefully those are the kinds of conversations we'll be having.

[00:12:14]>> And the final point that I found really interesting from this interview is the idea of US pressure on Saudi Arabia. And he seemed to flatly deny that there is any kind of US pressure. And he said very uh candidly that Saudi Arabia looks out for Saudi Arabia's interests alone.

[00:12:34]I thought that was really interesting, especially in light of some Israeli reporting that uh that took place after the previous meetup between Saudi Arabia and uh the US. So, what do you think about this?

[00:12:46]>> Yeah, I don't think it's too surprising that a a Saudi official, former official are not going to co on the record and say, "Yeah, we're going to succumb to US pressure." Um but he tried to do it in a way that suggested that there that the two sides are in line because uh what happened in the public meeting was the NBS said, "I just need a pathway." and President Trump didn't say anything publicly to say, "Oh, wait. I'm not happy about that. You should just get on board regardless of whether or not there's a pathway to a Palestinian state." Um, the reporting is that privately President Trump pushed back a little bit um and did express some frustration, but that hasn't been confirmed publicly. So, as long as that's the case, then Saudis are in a good position to say, "Hey, look, President Trump understands where we're coming from and recognizes that we do need to have progress on the Palestinian issue before we get to a place where Saudi Arabia can be expected to to normalize relations with Israel."

[00:13:34]>> All right, let's go to a short break.

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[00:14:06][music] And we're back. I'm Amanda Bashcal Dan here with our US bureau chief Jacob Magged. US Ambassador Mike Huckabe has had a very busy week as usual and even yesterday he seemed to warn Iran that this summer's war was only part one of a broader issue. He said these statements in an interview at the Institute for National Security Studies, a conference.

[00:14:34]And last week, more interestingly, Hakabe held a rare meeting with Palestinian Authority Vice President Hussein al-She in Ramla. This is really rare. I think it's only the second that's taken place in this current Trump administration. And if I'm not mistaken, in the first Trump administration, there was almost no contact with the Palestinians. So, Jacob fill in and and explain to us how rare this actually is.

[00:15:03]>> Yeah. Um so in the first administration there was it started with there's the the existence of what was called the US consulate in Jerusalem which was the de facto mission that represented the Palestinians and there was a head the council general that would be in respon would be in charge of kind of maintaining these these contacts with the PA leadership be it President Abbas or someone like one of his top aids like Hussein a um but that that mission was shuttered under the first ter during the first term. There was a feeling that it could be simply moved under the Israeli embassy, the US embassy in Jerusalem, that they could be basically downgraded to a file within the Israeli US relationship and that the previous consulate was acting too independently.

[00:15:46]That was kind of the the view of that Trump administration. Um and while the ambassador at the time, David Freeman, expressed interest in um engaging with the Palestinian Authority, even though he was very critical of them, um the PA at that point took a much harder line against the US and eventually just cut off ties completely. But even before that, um were not willing to engage with someone who they even called the settler. um David Freeman um I guess given his ties to Bet Belle um one of the settlements in and and his uh lots of philanthropy in terms of in support of that project. Um so there was no contact there. enter Mike Huckabe who replaces uh David Freeman or at least is the new ambassador under Trump's term and he actually I guess the approach by the Palestinians has been to be more willing to compromise and willing to work with this administration even if they feel that they're not necessarily getting a lot in return. They felt like the the approach of of really coming on hard and and simply boycotting did not really end up benefiting the Palestinian Authority. Um, so they've slowly over time uh adapted the approach and we've seen there was it's there's been a a phone call between President Trump and President Abbas before President Trump entered office and since then pretty limited actually engagement from the US because I think the US has looked at the Palestinian issue strictly through a Gaza lens. Um, and that's kind of how they saw it and therefore there was no need to address the Palestinian Authority. Um, there was very little engagement early on. that's shifted since the ceasefire where there was a recognition that the PA would play an integral role in trying to get the Arab world on board with Trump's 20point Gaza plan and actually the PA was crucial in lobbying some of the Arab states at the UN to back the resolution that saw this kind of the enshrining of Trump's plan in uh last month and after that resolution passed we actually saw a phone call which I reported about also um between Jared Kushner and Hussein a we saw the establishment of a high level communication channel. So against that backdrop, I think there's continued understanding in in in Washington that that the PA can play somewhat of an effective role even if they're some they're also frustrated with the PA's handling of um the recognitions of a Palestinian state that they've been encouraging countries to take those steps. Um but still I think they they the Washington wants to open this communication channel. So there was one meeting that Mike Kakabe held with Hussein several months ago during the summer and a second one now. Um and this one I was told um was about it wasn't publicized. So I I there's seems to be at least on the US side but also on the Palestinian side a way to maybe preference to try to keep this quiet. Um but what I found out about it um we we did write about it and the US embassy was willing to confirm that it took place. Um but basically there was to discuss three issues. uh the first being the issue of the Palestinian tax revenues these in that basically clearance revenue clearance revenues that Israel collects on the PA's behalf they haven't been transferring for many months now and that's causing a major financial crisis for the PA so the US so the PA raised this issue to try to urge the US to maybe convince Tatalismich the finance minister who's in charge of signing off on these payments to do so um I don't think there was a lot of success on this issue yet there's still going to be talks that will have to take place. Um, but that was the top the main topic that came up. Another one was the issue of trying to gain to grant access to Palestinian Christians to be able to pray at Jerusalem and Bethlehem holy sites. Jerusalem being under Israeli control, Bethlehem under Palestinian authority. However, um, with the rise of Israeli checkpoints um, due to the security situation in the West Bank there, it's been very difficult for Palestinians to travel between cities in the West Bank. So, Hussein raised this issue of trying to ease some of this travel um this freedom of movement for Palestinians specifically for um Christians who are trying to reach Bethlehem on um on Christmas. So, that was the the second issue. And then the third was settler violence which has also been something that actually Huckabe has weighed in on a little bit.

[00:19:43]Um it hasn't led his involvement hasn't seen led to any major shift. Um, but I think the U, the Palestinians hope that further US engagement on this issue will maybe convince the Israeli government to start taking it a little bit more seriously. But those were the three main topics. I wouldn't say that we saw a major breakthrough uh or commitment from the US to act or to change its policies or convince Israel to change its policies, but I think having this line of communication opened or starting to become more frequent um is something that both sides see benefit to. The previous time that Hecabe spoke out against settler extremism was during the summer as I recall and that was when there were the uh blazes next to ancient churches and that actually did push uh the government to condemn it. So it's quite possible that we're not yet seeing the fruits of this especially since it was kept on the down low aside from your reporting Jacob. But uh as I understand it, this meeting was meant to be the first of a series, meaning it's now meant to be a monthly meeting. Correct.

[00:20:45]>> I don't know about monthly, but yes, they are supposed to have their teams, their aids are going to meet up again in January to discuss some of these issues, which I think uh both sides are pretty happy about maintaining this line of communication.

[00:20:57]>> Okay, let's turn to a subject that we will never be able to avoid, and that's anti-semitism.

[00:21:04]and uh your vice president JD Vance is giving us some good fodder here. So on Sunday he had an interview with a podcast called Unheard and he claimed in this podcast that almost no Americans are anti-Semitic. So case closed, let's all go home. We're all done. No more work. And ADL, I'm sorry, but you're all out of jobs from now on. But no, to be serious, uh, tell us a little bit more about, uh, what exactly JD Vance is trying to get out here.

[00:21:33]>> I guess it's a part of and it's it's an extension. He seems to really like to weigh in on this issue because, uh, we spoke about it last week where he said the big issue with anti-semitism, the main cause is is migration. You're having people with ethnic grievances move into this country or others, and they're bringing their um, ethnic grievances with them, and they're passing it down to the next generation.

[00:21:53]Um, and that is what's causing anti-semitism. That was then. Now he's saying that the it seems like the biggest issue is actually that we're not addressing the consensus views on Israel. Um, which I guess he's suggesting that there's this consensus that the US government should support Israel and that we're not willing to have tough conversations about um, whether or not that should be the case.

[00:22:16]And by not having those conversations or shutting out people who are offering critical analysis of that relationship that that's what's leading to um a rise in anti-semitism even if it's only um he says with 1% of the GOP and 3% of the Democrats at least he used the 99 and 97% numbers to say that most the vast majority are not anti-semitic. But in terms of the minority this is why maybe it was migration last week or maybe it's a combination of both migration and ignoring these tough conversations on Israel. But it's just if you're talking about the latter reason he gave and and the one he talks about in this interview. It's just interesting hearing it coming from a Republican. Um this notion that we something you hear a lot from Democrats to say it's not anti-Israel to be critical of the government or it's not anti-Semitic to be critical of the Israeli government.

[00:23:02]And now you're hearing someone like JD Vance talk about it um and say some of use some of the same lines that we're used to hearing from from the left. And I guess it demonstrates this maybe shift, this broader shift in the US regarding Israel. Um, but I I'm I'd be curious to know how indicative this is of a broader policy change because he's not the only person in this administration that does a lot of pontificating online. Um, you have someone like Tom Barack who's the US envoy on Syria who also does this kind of real long thought pieces on on X. Uh Vance did this in an interview, but uh I'm not sure how much when when Vance when when Barack says, "Oh, we don't even know uh Israel claims to be a democracy." Um was comments he made several weeks ago. Um and there wasn't a lot of follow-through of what that really meant. Was Israel was the US now saying that Israel might not be a democracy. There wasn't really follow through on that. And on Vance's comments as well, I'm not really sure if there's going to be therefore a shift in US policy on Israel. And if you listen to what President Trump said at the Hanukkah party last week when he's talking about I will never abandon Israel, one would suggest that these are just comments that might not necessarily have followup. And yet it is obviously interesting to hear how Vance thinks because of course he could be very well the future of the party. Um he's he's the best position to to be so. Um there's also Marco Rubio um this the secretary of state who is also seen as a likely contender possibly even against Vance. Um but definitely he makes up uh Vance does a large part of the party.

[00:24:29]Um, and this is possibly their thinking on Israel, which is that we need to be willing to have conversations that allow for more critical for that allow for more criticism of the Jewish state.

[00:24:40]>> Well, you know, we Jews are very open to Mah, right? Some, you know, we find agreement in the spaces in between, right, Jacob?

[00:24:49]>> Of course.

[00:24:50]>> Of course. All right, Jacob, thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:24:52]>> Thanks for thanks for having me, Amanda.

[00:24:54]>> Thanks for listening to the Times of Israel's daily briefing. Please check out another installment tomorrow. This episode was produced by the Podwaves. If you have any questions or comments about this or any other episode, please drop us an email to podcast timesofisrael.com.

[00:25:10]Until tomorrow, shalom.

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