Why We Argue: The Brain’s Certainty Trap with Chris Niebauer

追加: 2026-05-27

[00:00:00]When we look at how the left brain works, I think the left brain plays a trick and it's that the left brain plays this trick where and you see this really in politics quite a bit where my suffering would end if you could only see that I'm right.

[00:00:13]>> [laughter] >> And you see that from that everyone plays that game.

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[00:01:55]Conversations [music] on the leading edge of knowledge and discovery with psychologist [music] Jeffrey Mishlove.

[00:02:08]Hi, I'm Leanne Whitney, depth psychologist and guest host working alongside long-time host and producer Jeffrey Mishlove and my other colleagues here at New Thinking Allowed. Today, I'm excited to welcome Chris Niebauer back to the show.

[00:02:25]Chris earned his PhD in cognitive neuropsychology at the University of Toledo specializing in the differences between the left and right sides of the human brain.

[00:02:36]He is the author of the best-selling book No Self, No Problem: How Neuropsychology Is Catching Up to Buddhism and the No Self, No Problem Workbook: Exercises and Practices from Neuropsychology and Buddhism to Help You Lose Your Mind. He was a professor at a state university in Pennsylvania for 22 years where he taught courses on consciousness, mindfulness, left and right brain differences, and artificial intelligence.

[00:03:04]In this conversation, Chris and I explore how meaning lives in direct conscious experience rather than in the abstractions our left brain constructs like money, status, identity, even the self itself. We look at why the left hemisphere's storytelling certainty fuels so much of our political polarization and why the right brain's openness, gratitude, and maybe stance is the antidote.

[00:03:31]Along the way, we touch on AI's challenge to human identity as the planet's best thinkers and the role of empathy and uncertainty in healthy dialogue.

[00:03:41]Chris is joining me remotely from his home in Pennsylvania and now I will switch over to the internet interview.

[00:03:49]Hello, Chris. Welcome back. Nice to be with you. Oh, great to be here.

[00:03:54]We talked before about uh meaning.

[00:03:59]Uh and you we went in depth into your specialty on the right and left hemispheres of the brain, what they each specialize in. The left being more text, language, linguistic, linear. The right more the context, the wholeness.

[00:04:15]Um I'm wondering if you could go more into the ideas of of mean deeper into the ideas of meaning and value.

[00:04:24]Uh because there is a sense when we do the deconstruction, which again is a is a part of the path.

[00:04:34]Um People can through concept get lo- feel that there is no meaning. It's very nihilistic.

[00:04:44]Um I know for you a meaning is in life.

[00:04:46]It's inherent in life, I believe. Uh but yeah, if you can kind of take it from there. That not the nihilistic take, but this idea is more tantric actually.

[00:04:56]Um of of the joy of eating the peach or being alive because the meaning is right here, right now. So we've been >> [gasps and sighs] >> and bar- most of this comes from our culture. They were taught to be successful. And to be successful is to be a problem solver.

[00:05:13]And to uh always be in the mode of improvement.

[00:05:21]It's looking at the next best thing. And it's interesting when you look how how again, I I I started looking at I think it was Marvel or one of the um movies.

[00:05:31]And And you start looking at that something like one of these superheroes.

[00:05:34]Like whether it's Superman or the Hulk.

[00:05:35]And It's It's just It's amazing to see how much bigger and like everything is improving. Our our stories get bigger and bolder. The movies are you know, everything um uh >> [laughter] >> It's just you wonder if there's ever an end point.

[00:05:51]Now, if you tie your meaning into that, "Can I create a more successful me?"

[00:05:57]Uh, you can, uh, but it's always on culture's terms.

[00:06:03]When we define success as money, >> [snorts] >> and and which is a strange, strange, bizarre thing to do, because money doesn't even exist.

[00:06:12]And uh, you know, we've got an an incredible amount of what I call left-brain abstractions.

[00:06:19]And when you live in this left-brain abstract world, all you get are more abstractions. So, you work at a business which doesn't exist. You know, it's just a name.

[00:06:31]You're really just going into a building.

[00:06:33]And you make these products that people buy.

[00:06:40]And then somehow it ends up as more money. But in the money, there's a wonderful thing from sociology. It said, uh, "Uh, beliefs believed to be true are true in their consequences."

[00:06:51]So, the fact that we all believe in money gives it a collective power. It like brings a ghost alive. And so, we're all chasing money, and the only reason it works is because we all believe in it. If the whole belief in money ended tomorrow, if this paper stuff was valueless, everything would change.

[00:07:11]>> [snorts] >> And so, what I'm trying to get to is we have put our meaning into this abstract world.

[00:07:19]But it's like a ghost. There's there's no substance to it.

[00:07:23]Meaning, when it gets moved from an abstraction to the only So, in my world, the only thing that has any reality to it is our conscious experience. Conscious is fundamental. Consciousness can't be explained because there's nothing more fundamental that would be able to explain it.

[00:07:44]And it's And it's And we have it backwards. I'm going to get a little strange here, but most we were taught the story that first there's the material world, and somehow this material world created complex brains that gave rise to consciousness.

[00:08:00]That story is questionable for a lot of reasons.

[00:08:04]One, we've never found out how in the how matter creates consciousness. We don't even have a a clue.

[00:08:11]But the main flaw in it is that it's very possible that the exact opposite story could be true. It could be that consciousness is creating what we interpret to be the material world.

[00:08:23]And so when you when you put it that way, then the most fundamental aspect of human existence, of the universe, is our conscious experiences.

[00:08:35]And the strangest thing I just did a video on this yesterday. The strangest thing about our conscious experiences is that they don't seem strange at all.

[00:08:42]We can uh you know, taste food, and and we can hear music.

[00:08:49]And this should send us running down the street unbelievably joyful that we're able to have these experiences. It's the greatest gift that you just explode with gratitude at every moment.

[00:09:01]And the strangest thing that we've done is that we've Well, there's even some humans that believe consciousness is an illusion, which I find hysterical.

[00:09:10]>> [laughter] >> Consciousness thinking itself, I mean, that's got to be a cosmic-level joke.

[00:09:18]So So we've traded the beauty of our exper- direct experiences that have historically brought our ancestors amazing sense of joy. And all the other species in the world feel this joy.

[00:09:32]Uh they're they're they're in it.

[00:09:35]They're That's the baseline of their existence. So, we look at other animals and we think well, they're not quite intelligent uh because they don't have the language skills that we do and that is a really it's a it's a trick that leads us down a strange path [clears throat] because I would guess we live in a universe that is uh the foundation is unbounded joy.

[00:09:58]And they all the these animals on the planet that the the joy that they experience is their is their normal existence.

[00:10:06]But we impose our thinking mind on their existence because we think well, you know, we're quite intelligent. Humans are dominating the earth and yeah, in a way in many ways we do control the earth. We change the earth in a lot of ways, but I would never say that we are the wisest species on the planet.

[00:10:27]And and and I would say that because uh we've we've we've trivialized the greatest source of not just our joy, but our absolute meaning. When you can experience the world through direct conscious experiences and make that normal. Make that normal. Not thinking.

[00:10:51]Thinking isn't normal. Thinking is a strange thing that just popped up recently. It's an odd state of consciousness.

[00:10:58]But our natural state of consciousness is you know, sipping your coffee in the morning. You know, I mean, I had a uh I had an interesting experience getting some pizzas the other day and and it was just you know, and again, it's not that you don't know you one bite is is is is is just amazing that we can experience it and and actually I'll uh I'll challenge your listeners to to prove that consciousness is the ultimate source of meaning.

[00:11:29]And it's something I used to uh challenge my students with and I'd say, "Look, here's a wager.

[00:11:36]You can have all the fame, all the money, and all the power you want, unlimited.

[00:11:42]All you must trade is your consciousness.

[00:11:46]So, you will be famous, wealthy, powerful, but you'll be a zombie.

[00:11:50]You will no longer get those direct experiences."

[00:11:53]In 20 years, no one ever took the deal.

[00:11:58]Because fundamentally we know that's it.

[00:12:02]That is it. That is the meaning. You well, so so knowledge and consciousness are they meet each other. The knowing and the consciousness, not the thinking.

[00:12:15]The the knowing, not the thinking knowing. Just there's a it's like the an inherent knowing. There's a marriage right there.

[00:12:23]And when the if the thinking tries to grab it and uh represent it or represent it now where I mean, we're in this reflective process.

[00:12:36]Um and I think that's part of you know, what the hemispheres do. I mean, they certainly communicate to each other, the right and left hemisphere.

[00:12:44]Again, your your specialty, understanding what these two hemispheres do.

[00:12:50]Um but is it is it possible that that's something that the left hemisphere does?

[00:12:54]It tries to represent.

[00:12:56]It tries to own consciousness, own the story, represent the the totality or even just uh a partial aspect uh as its own. It likes to grasp and take ownership of. Yeah, it's all absolutely on on uh the exact uh point because the left hemisphere, think of what the main thing that one of the main things the left hemisphere does is language. Language is one of the representational tricks of the species.

[00:13:27]That we And here's thing [clears throat] is we could use it as a representational tool, but we're always reminded and in in the Zen tradition, they had to they knew very well that a finger pointed to the moon isn't the moon.

[00:13:40]You know, they knew as the one line again, I wish I could give credit to the person who came up with it. They said, you know, uh I know how to use language, but it's never going to fool me.

[00:13:51]Which is to say I'm never going to take it seriously.

[00:13:55]And and recognize that you can never drink the word water.

[00:14:00]>> [clears throat] >> And so Zen had a wonderful insight into uh the nature of overthinking and and they were quite anti-intellectual and that sounds kind of negative, but I think what they were trying to get out get at is just our overthinking. And the level of discernment. So, here we are in our last election if not our last two um stories, fabrications, now with the rise of AI.

[00:14:27]Um Yeah, falsifications. Um that capacity to discern is also something that's really important, maybe especially in a democracy if a democracy could ultimately fail. Again, not that we want to hang on to anything. Uh but this idea of being able to navigate the territory. So, if if the right brain is the uh the whole picture um and it includes our feelings and our sensations and then the the left hemisphere has language, uh logic, linear thinking uh but it can really bind and create stories and create stories that aren't true, right? They're not just like a soft, hey, we're humans on the earth.

[00:15:18]Like categories that help us and they guide us, but if we bind too hard on them, uh if we contract too much around them, we begin to suffer. But how do we how do we navigate that level of discernment in any way in your view? Well, so maybe I come back to the AI question because I think that that's a very interesting We're at a really interesting time with AI because I for the first time on the planet, we've been the best thinkers on the planet. And for the first time in history, some machine out-thinks us.

[00:15:50]It's a very humbling experience and but it's also one that's going to push us back into pondering the qualities of humanity that are truly valuable beyond thinking.

[00:16:09]Because that's the only way the machine the machines have one up on us. They out-think us. And there's we're we're not going to win that battle.

[00:16:17]And so we're no longer the primary thinkers on the planet.

[00:16:21]Certainly not the fastest thinkers.

[00:16:24]And but that's okay because there's more to human human existence than just thinking. If all we were were thinking machines just like an AI program, then it is all over.

[00:16:36]Because we're no longer the best thinkers and you know, you know, who knows what AI has planned for us, but you know, we would have nothing to compete with them.

[00:16:46]And so I used to teach a class on AI AI and I would um uh describe, you know, look, we we need to find our unique human curiosity, our unique human creativity.

[00:17:00]You know, the wonderful thing about human existence, just like other species, but you know, we've got this ability to connect to higher intelligence that helps us create. And and and and people have wondered, well, you know, does AI have that?

[00:17:16]But thinking is just a very small part of the picture.

[00:17:20]And but anyway, the the other question, uh, sorry, I sort of got off on that.

[00:17:26]Wanted to save it, but I couldn't help myself. But, uh, the other question about, um, discernment and and and and what's happening culturally, politically right now, and stories and and how the news could be so effective.

[00:17:40]And um, so if you look, there's there's two really amazing things about the left brain, and it shows up both with split-brain patients, but also also with patients who have right brain damage.

[00:17:51]So, the left brain is more left to do its deeds without anyone checking on it.

[00:17:57]And that is the capacity to not just create stories, cuz stories in and of themselves are pretty harmless. But, there's one interesting quality the left brain gives to stories. And that is the absolute conviction that they're not stories at all. That they're absolute truth.

[00:18:14]And that I'm right. And so, when you look at split brains, these are people who had their two sides of the brain surgically severed for medical reasons, and which were successful in reducing their epilepsy, but um, they were able to take them in the lab and look to see what the isolated left brain does. And And if you send messages to the right brain, uh, these patients would comply in different ways and do things like raise their hand or get up and go for a walk. The left brain's clueless. It has no idea why it just got up and started going for a walk.

[00:18:45]But, the left brain was inventive, interpretive. It looked at the data and said, "Well, I must be thirsty. Oh, I'm going to get you know, I'm getting a drink."

[00:18:53]And the interesting thing There are two interesting things about that. One is how effortlessly the story was created.

[00:18:59]And it was kind of plausible. You know, maybe I do need to get a drink. That that makes sense. But, it was also certain about it.

[00:19:06]There was no questioning.

[00:19:08]And so, we see this reflected in a different set of patients.

[00:19:12]where uh, the right brain, the entire right brain was offline due to stroke.

[00:19:17]And because the right brain and the body's cross-wired, so the right side of the brain controls the left half of the body, left brain controls the right half of the body. So if you have a massive right brain stroke, your left your left body is paralyzed.

[00:19:31]And their left hand would be sitting on a table completely paralyzed.

[00:19:35]But remember, the left brain now is totally free cuz cuz one way people look at the left and right brain is say, you know, the left brain is a storyteller, but the right brain keeps the left in check. It's kind of a reality check. And it's like, you know, if you go too far out of line, I'm going to bring you back to reality. But now that reality check is offline.

[00:19:56]And so the brain is free to invent and believe in anything it wants. And so here's a paralyzed hand sitting on the table and if the physician would say something simple like, can you move your hand? And the patient would say, of course I can. In some cases they would even hallucinate that they move their hand to be consistent with the story.

[00:20:15]So there was never any doubt about this. I mean, these patients had absolute confidence. Of course I could move my hand. And sometimes they even had some interesting Freudian versions of this where the reaction formation where not only could they move their hand, but if they wanted to, they could lift a desk, you know, into the air if they wanted to.

[00:20:35]But they didn't want to, but they could.

[00:20:38]And so you see some really remarkable qualities of the left brain in all this.

[00:20:42]The left brain's storytelling, its interpretation ability, which is it's interpreting based on the data, so it may not be right, but it may uh but it may be wrong.

[00:20:55]It may be right, but it also may be wrong.

[00:20:58]But you also see uh the confidence in the left brain. And there's a certain survival function here. Because when you go to say your physician and and the physician came out and the physician said, "Look, maybe you've got this disease. Maybe it's this you know, I don't really it could be anything."

[00:21:15]That wouldn't work very well. We want a physician to come out and say, "Look, that you know, I know exactly they want we want false confidence at in places where people say, "Look, here's what's happening."

[00:21:25]And [snorts] you have this and you know, take this and everything will be fine.

[00:21:29]So it seems to be very functional.

[00:21:32]But the problem is now particularly with social media. What What is social media? But a bunch of storytelling machines.

[00:21:41]Every Look at your post.

[00:21:43]Flip through Facebook, whatever you want now any social they're all stories.

[00:21:47]They're all stories interpreting reality.

[00:21:52]And they all suffer from that same fundament fundamental problem that every story [clears throat] believes that it's absolutely right.

[00:22:00]And so um it puts us in a really tough position.

[00:22:05]Because you know how do you remain ambiguous to all How do you recognize that these are all stories?

[00:22:14]You know, none of it's app we don't know. None of it's absolute and that's the wisdom of the right brain. The right brain will come in and be like, "Maybe."

[00:22:23]You know, you know, this that uh wonderful story I always love um you know, the Chinese farmer story. I think I got totally updated it which I always love his updated version where you know, someone uh wins a car and everyone just say, "Oh, that's you're so lucky." You know, and he just said, "Maybe."

[00:22:40]And then um gets into a car accident ends up in hospital. Oh, "Oh, how is it so dreadful?" And he just like, "Maybe."

[00:22:46]And it goes on. And that's the way the right brain loves uncertainty. The right brain never nails anything down. It's always open that maybe this is true maybe it doesn't want to put a label on reality. It's like, "Look, reality is alive. Living things change and move.

[00:23:04]The left brain wants to close all that into a closed system of this is true and then go with it. I'm I'm wondering if then so when it comes to these stories and in particular stories right now in election year in the United States um is it more qualities that we would or could look for in a leader like curiosity and openness or flexibility and adaptability or something that's the hallmark of integration. So instead of looking for um a double down on a a particular tribe or a particular story um because in some ways we could say that the left in in the country wants more of we more community and there's a more individuality perhaps on the right but we do need a mix of both. Again it's differentiation and linkage. We want we want to see the parts and but we want to also see how the parts all work together in the whole. Uh so would it be qualities then?

[00:24:13]What what advice would you give for let's say you know the United States population and in election year and if not to double down on stories what would be what would be great to see in our leaders?

[00:24:30]Well uh what we seek in our leaders is the qualities that we value ourselves and because we value thinking so much we we expect to have a leader who is intellectually you know that that's their uh that's their talent to figure out these incredibly complex problems that involve thousands of variables and uh are probably beyond any person's thinking mind uh but that's what we expect And so it it is an interesting time because um bringing in that So even in this question, like what what do we want in a leader? Why do we need leaders?

[00:25:11]Do we even need I mean you know, why have leaders at all? And and when you get into like the whole hierarchical structure of any government is based on this idea that some people have more decision-making cap ability than others, which is an interesting potentially useful fiction, too.

[00:25:31]You know, countries don't exist. I mean this this goes along with a lot of the strange beliefs that I've been pondering. So I'm writing My new book is actually about that there's this abstract left brain world and it's filled with things like government. Government is an abstraction. You say, well, how do you know?

[00:25:48]You know, why why is the self an abstraction?

[00:25:51]Well, because you can't consciously experience it.

[00:25:54]And you can go to DC and you can see the buildings, but you can't see or you can't consciously experience the government because it's a it's a it's a fiction.

[00:26:03]Then the question gets shifted a little bit. Well, what parts of this fiction are useful? Because it very well could be parts of it are very very useful.

[00:26:12]But again, that first thing is just reminding ourselves that it's a story that we're talking about and then we have stories about that story.

[00:26:21]And so I think what we could a place to start would be focusing on Well, what do we want? Like what are we as you know, ordinary citizens, what are we expecting from a leader?

[00:26:33]You know, in in the East they have a saying that, you know, people get the leaders they deserve.

[00:26:39]And so, you know, [laughter] it's it's a it's it's a way of taking a little deeper and and just saying, you know, instead of getting from the I'm right, you know, the tribalism that you were describing And and just maybe pondering like like what do we expect? What do we want?

[00:26:58]How how much am I, you know, the classic, am I looking outward or looking inward?

[00:27:03]Uh am I looking for, you know, a leader uh to to define some, you know, that's it's the identity problem again.

[00:27:13]And so, um you know, you could see how quickly our stories and and again, I love keeping my uh social media open to all positions because it's really interesting to see how the left brain on both and all sides cuz again, the left brain, you could see we say both sides because that's the way the left brain categorizes it, you know, in an us versus them and um So, that's a great example of left brain categorization because of course, there's not two sides. There's an infinite amount of There's all kinds of sides. But, you know, getting to this question of and I like the way you put that, you know, kind of like uh collective versus individualism and like how do we how do we how do we find that uh um that integration?

[00:27:59]And and and and that's just that's another way of rephrasing the question, how do we get to the integration of the left and right brain?

[00:28:08]And um you know, uh >> [sighs and gasps] >> recognizing rec- first recognizing stories as stories, I think will go a long way. And and and and that comes with the notion that we could be wrong. And I used to spend time with the students and and it would almost and you could see their poor left brain struggling with this.

[00:28:31]Like, you know, how long have you been around?

[00:28:34]And you know, 17, 19 years, something like that. And I'd be like, well, you know, how often have you been right?

[00:28:41]And I said, people just like writing, writing, writing all this stuff. I go, okay, okay, stop. And and how How many times have you been wrong?" And you just see everyone ponders and they're looking and they're like, "Hmm."

[00:28:52]And then I say, "Well, do you think maybe we have a system that's a little biased to you know, believe our stories are right?" Which makes sense because you know, if you just give up with this I mean, that's the way the brain's working. It's It's trying to convince you, "No, this is real reality. It's not just a version of it."

[00:29:10]And And then how biased we are. But it >> [laughter] >> it's it it's probably one of the left brain can't do it. The left brain simply cannot admit that it's ever wrong, ever.

[00:29:24]Because that's not its job. The left brain's job was to tell a story and be convincing. You know, it's it's a it's like a lawyer in a courtroom and it's like, you know, it's it's it's going to do everything it can do to convince the jury like, "Look, this is the way it is."

[00:29:40]And it And it almost always wins.

[00:29:42]But when we define ourselves as more than just a story, you know, notice how I put it like, "Am Am I right?"

[00:29:52]And then again, it connects it with the story of the self.

[00:29:56]And of course, the self is always right because, you know, that's that that's the programming of the left brain to create an idea of who we think we are.

[00:30:05]And who we think we are is always right.

[00:30:08]And And of course, that's why when we all get together and [snorts] we start dialogue, it's only going to go somewhere. We're only going to be able to sit back down all together and start talking again when we recognize that we are more than these stories.

[00:30:26]When When When When the human existence goes beyond the storytelling capacity of the left brain.

[00:30:33]And when we do that, and look at the Look at the left brain does. The left brain There's a special place at the temporal parietal junction in in the right brain that it's all it's all function is a taking the place of another person. It's called, you know, theory of mind where you take the perspective of another individual.

[00:30:52]And that's a really important part of the process.

[00:30:56]And so many practices involve in fact even in the workbook that came out, I put a special section in there consider that you may be wrong.

[00:31:06]And this is it is funny cuz even after all the work I've done and reflection and neuro sign, it's still you could when you're identified with the left brain it's you're going to feel the sense that I'm right.

[00:31:20]And so the only way you get over that is to go beyond the storytelling capacities of the left brain. There's there's no I don't see any other way around it. Yeah, is it can you feel it though? Like can you feel the left brain bind? Is it in other words, are there, you know, somatic and emotional cues also?

[00:31:41]And because the the rigidity around story, around identity typically also leads to suffering. So there's some form of cue that either within my own system or within my environment that suffering is is being perpetuated. Is there is there a way for us to uh yeah, be mirrored back or or reflect on it from that perspective? Well, when we look at how the left brain works, I think the left brain plays a trick and it's that the left brain plays a trick where and you see this really in politics quite a bit where my suffering would end if you could only see that I'm right.

[00:32:24]>> [laughter] >> And you see that from that everyone plays that game.

[00:32:30]And so we're all playing that game and uh that puts it that puts it on the other person.

[00:32:38]And and then then you're you're giving up your autonomy to to another You're You're letting your emotions be defined by another person because you're saying, "Look, you know, until you see that I'm right about this, it's going to cause me frustration." And and and so, you know, so much of what's going on in politics um is is expecting peace and joy from someone else from someone else buying what you buying the stories of your own left brain. Like, your poor left brain's in there going, "These stories are right. I know they're right.

[00:33:17]Why can't you believe my left brain stories?"

[00:33:20]And the other person's going the same way. They're like, "My left brain stories are right. Why can't you believe my left brain stories?" And so, we've got all that creating quite a bit of conflict and it and it's creating uh a lack of dialogue.

[00:33:35]And and and and the the reason So, uh I'm really I enjoy uh debate and dialogue and the reason I'm so uh supportive of talking it out is because just from a cognitive viewpoint, we know that there are 300 documented errors of the mind.

[00:33:51]And and and a lot of these are tied in with what the left brain does. You know, left brain has a personal involvement with its hypothesis. So, confirmation bias is like rampant. It's like, you know, it's one of the main things we do as humans.

[00:34:05]But then, when we get into a room with other people with other minds, they have the possibility, if we're open to it, to point out that, you know, maybe this or that is wrong. Maybe that there maybe there's a Maybe there's a cuz what what what we're all doing here is creating thoughts.

[00:34:22]Which thoughts are most useful?

[00:34:25]And which thoughts will bring the most joy for a group of people? I mean, I hope that's what what we're really doing. It's interesting cuz what I'm also hearing you point towards is ideas of empowerment that we don't want to give our agency and our power away. In that agency and that power, in the way that you're defining it, seems to fall in the integration. You You don't want the left brain to be over empowered.

[00:34:54]You want it to work in harmony with the right brain. And likewise, person to person. So it's sort of this interconnectivity, again, this integration.

[00:35:07]But there is a point of empowerment.

[00:35:10]Uh you know, not expecting that somebody else is causing my suffering or has to be the healer of my suffering. That if I can work with my own system to a degree that I can master my system, discern, and see clearly.

[00:35:31]Um then, yeah, power is gained back. And that that's kind of what I'm was pointing to about the the suffering is the guardrail in a way. You know, it even if there's a finger pointing, you're causing the suffering. Who right?

[00:35:45]Whoever it is, it's the red flag that there's something going on.

[00:35:51]Uh in in some kind of story that's been uh too much uh too much binding, too much constriction, too too much grasping around whatever that identity is. And if we could use that as a guardrail, then and aim towards joy. So again, it's like a narrative of integration or a map towards, you know, these are the capacities we have for compassion, nurturing care, joyful play.

[00:36:23]How do we steer the species there?

[00:36:26]And I I think your body of work is so important to that because understanding how we work is clearly going to help us master the system and and aim us in that next direction. Well, so about 80 90% of the Earth's population, and this isn't cultural, is right-handed. Now, the interesting thing about that, again, the left brain controls the right hand.

[00:36:52]What does the right hand control?

[00:36:55]Everything. Everything that we've made and altered and created was mostly done by the right hand and all the symbolic processes, writing with That's why we write.

[00:37:05]But, the interesting thing about that all is that the left brain is controlling.

[00:37:10]And so, one of the qualities of the left brain, it loves to call the shots. It loves to be in charge.

[00:37:16]And then you go to the right brain and you find its exact complement. Do you find the exact opposite? What you find is gratitude and compassion.

[00:37:25]And so, instead of trying to change the world, you're grateful for how it is right now.

[00:37:30]And start instead of trying to change other people, you're compassionate in the sense that you come to empathize with their position and say, "Look, I disagree with you, but I can see how you might uh get to that point."

[00:37:44]And those And so, that slight shift from wanting to control each other's story to a right brain compassion and empathy perspective, I mean, that alone could solve the what we perceive as most of our conflict.

[00:38:00]And it's a wonderful thing to to um So, uh you know, I tell people who you know, Thanksgiving might be Let's say, Thanksgiving could be very interesting this year because families might get together and you know, talk politics. And and so, how do you how do you deal with that conflict because so many I mean [clears throat] relationships have been broken, friendships have been lost over stories and people's interpretations and their absolute certitude that their story is right. So, imagine what happens with that slight shift. And and so people always ask me the classic question, how do you get the right brain going? Cuz all this stuff sounds great.

[00:38:43]I love compassion. I love gratitude. You know, I know gratitude's good for me.

[00:38:47]It's like going to the gym. It's like but it's like a thousand times better for my body and soul. And but I just can't get it going.

[00:38:56]And so, uh I In fact, at the very beginning of the workbook, I I have a section that's all about super I said call it like small steps, but I should have called it like super tiny small steps. Like the like small Don't don't don't think you're going to run a marathon. And so, if you're in a conversation and and you could feel your left brain cuz when when a person gets triggered, it's their left brain that's getting triggered. And so, when you feel that, like you know, someone says something, you scroll, you find a post, just don't think you're going to You're not going to change this machinery.

[00:39:32]But what you can do is just have a moment of empathy. Just just go for like 3 seconds.

[00:39:38]Feel it. It has to be a feeling cuz it's not an intellectual function. All the thinking That's not what the right brain's doing.

[00:39:46]It's it's it's a it's a reaching out and connecting and and feeling that we're beyond all the thinking mind. Every human and every species on the planet has a connection that transcends anything that we can think about.

[00:40:03]And when you get that feeling going, then you're like, "You know what?

[00:40:06]We're not that different. We're We're kind of mirrors of each other." In fact, we have a We're And that's the beauty of consciousness because there is only one consciousness, which is to say there are no others.

[00:40:20]And so once you get past the thinking, then we're like, "Oh, this is just another version of me. This This isn't the enemy. This isn't the enemy. This This is me.

[00:40:30]A reflection playing a game pretending to be someone different." Yeah, and it's really interesting cuz, you know, definitely the stories in the in the left brain, but also, you know, the brain stem, right? The reptilian brain stem. We go into fight, flight, freeze so quickly.

[00:40:49]And the basis and I you know, we talked about this before in our other conversation, uh developmental processes from womb on to 2 years old. I mean, the main uh function is is safety, you know, for parents, for primary caregivers, right?

[00:41:09]To see and to soothe. So, safety, security, and perhaps we're living amongst a culture where the trust, don't trust, safe, unsafe is gone haywire. Uh so, yes, it's stories, but it's also tied to something that's happening in the bodily development of of so many of us. Again, I'm I'm purely speculating there, uh but when you look at the numbers of attachment theory and insecure attachment, I don't think it's it's far off to say that a lot of people don't feel safe and I don't feel secure and in so the double down on the story comes almost twice as hard because people maybe don't want to feel their fear.

[00:41:57]They don't want to feel the Oh, I'm not trusting. I'm not feeling safe first in order to uh you know, be mindfully aware of their whole system.

[00:42:10]Um I don't know if you could speak to to that at all, but definitely that safe unsafe and lack of trust can create that uh egoic if you will or self-subversion of a particular story and a particular identity. Yeah, it's interesting it let's go a little deeper than the left and right brain and talk about like brain stem mechanisms where you know, if you burn me, I'm going to reflexively pull my hand back. And so we do have a very low level of basic survival reactions that happen. And those can get tied in with that left brain story. And so uh yeah, that's a very it could become very defensive. And and uh part of the way to do that part of our response is is sometimes just to shut down.

[00:42:53]Sometimes it's to walk away and sometimes it's to uh um feel a a deep sense of fear. Not And this is one of the ways the left brain creates fear because the left brain is prone to fear.

[00:43:07]Uh if you take a look at that particular emotion.

[00:43:10]And um and and the fear experience is experienced as again, it's a survival level, but it has transcended the basics and of the physical body. And and that's what the left brain does. It takes these foundational qualities, but it turns them into abstractions. So now it's not just you can't just burn my hand, but you can injure my sense of self.

[00:43:37]You can injure my stories.

[00:43:40]And when you when you take it to that level like my stor- like my stories this is the basic reason the fear of death. You know, we have a story and the greatest fear of all is that uh it won't exist one day.

[00:43:54]And so uh you know, battling and the the battling out of identities is uh all reflective of what the left brain does.

[00:44:05]And again, uh the way out of this is shifting the focus from like I know my position. Like it's a very strange thing, you know, where you say, "I know with certainty, like this is my beliefs." To just a more open, soft version of that. You know, like maybe this is true. Imagine a conversation shifted cuz then you then the the triggering doesn't happen as much. See, that triggering is a response to someone else who's saying with absolute certitude, "I know this and I know this to be certain." And then the other person it it feels that fear response because if that other person is certain, then I have to then my identity is hurt.

[00:44:45]And and but if the other person is responding with maybe, you know, possibly. And even if they don't respond, you still have the capacity to say, "Maybe you missed that opportunity." The other person is just that in their left brain ways, but if then that then you have this opportunity. And your opportunity is to greet it with openness, with possibilities, with with with the mystery. Like nothing is known. You know, the all the all you know, even the stuff that I talk about with the we don't know.

[00:45:14]You know, we don't we don't know uh uh you know, the physicists tell us that like all the stuff we think is matter mostly 99.99% empty space.

[00:45:25]And so, you know, uh this this notion that anything can be absolutely known with certitude should be put on you know, cuz we talk about paranormal beliefs and some people say, "Well, you know, that's a little out there." And well, to me that's a little out there. To believe something with absolute certitude, that to me is a far stranger belief than that we have some of these telepathic you know, that to me sounds far more reasonable than that we could know something with absolute certitude. I think what you're pointing to is the openness, the curiosity, the not doubling down Uh, we navigate through this moment on the planet where there's multiple wars raging everywhere where we're having, uh, you know, environmental, uh, crises or, um, at least confronting, uh, even many stories around what's happening in our environment. So, the ability to to stay open and compassionate and seated in the right hemisphere, if you will, or the middle way, seated in the middle way, um, perhaps we have a a shot of moving forward in a different paradigm in a new way than how we've been doing it for a few hundred years. And it's And there are techniques you can prove this stuff to yourself. I used to have my students keep a jour- a thought journal because part of what's happening with politics is everyone is, well, if this happens, this is going to happen. If this is going to then this is going to happen.

[00:46:53]And then just follow your thoughts.

[00:46:55]Write down 10 thoughts you might have every day and then your confidence of how confident you are they're going to come true. And the thing you'll be surprised, so I did this for semesters and some of my the numbers I would get were remarkable. I think the highest rate of accuracy was about 50%.

[00:47:13]So, one student actually like half of their thoughts of what they thought would come true did.

[00:47:17]Most of the ratings were far less than that. Most of them were like 5% of the time. And it was an epiphany to them. It was an absolute epiphany because they were so sure and so worried. This is the source of anxiety, not just having a thought, but the thought that comes along with it, that this thought is going to happen.

[00:47:37]And that was the source of my, you know, I was such a neurotic person in my 20s.

[00:47:42]I would really started this whole process over, uh, off on this path, but, um, it all started from taking that thought absolutely seriously and believing that it was somehow prophetic. That like this is this is definitely going to happen.

[00:47:58]Yes, and letting go. Letting go and letting the flow. Any final thoughts around a year of politics or again, anything else to add towards the AI? Um you know, when we're when we're really needing to be clear and to see, right? And I think that's part of also what maybe you're pointing to with your version of consciousness.

[00:48:23]It's like pure perception, pure seeing and we need to get the noise out of the way and when we can just sit and be, then that empathy and then that and feeling and the resonance, the accurate resonance can come forward in a different ways. Anything else to add along those lines? Just to not take your thoughts too seriously, but it goes a little bit deeper than that because one of the things that happens when you stop taking your thoughts very seriously is you stop taking the thoughts or at least what you think are the thoughts of other people seriously.

[00:48:58]And that's a really uh great way to to shift into into the right brain because we're not very good at knowing what other people think. Now, we actually are much better at knowing what other people feel and that was the original program is empathy and and that would and so uh when you when you when you go beyond thinking and and I'm actually considering this the title of my next book like waking up from the dream of thinking. What that that that would be the advice that like we need to wake up from the dream of abstract thought. Not just thinking that we know our own thoughts, but thinking that somehow I know your thoughts.

[00:49:40]Cuz maybe I don't.

[00:49:42]And uh you know, so you're in a store and you're just like oh, everyone's looking at me.

[00:49:46]Maybe may maybe no one's even noticed you.

[00:49:49]And so uh that that that So you're talking about openness and letting go. And and and and that helps because what we realize is is there is nothing to let go in the first place.

[00:50:02]And and and then we get to, you know, a really nice place of acceptance.

[00:50:08]And not just acceptance and not just faith. I think it's going a little bit beyond faith. Uh, it's it's an identity of consciousness that you come to see that isn't yours.

[00:50:19]It's just the foundation of reality.

[00:50:21]And then there's this comfort. Like everything's going to be okay. Like I would tell my students that all the time. Like, "Look, it's going I'm talking on cosmic terms, not on human terms. Uh, this 3D version, who knows?

[00:50:33]It's chaos and but in a cosmic sense, everything is going to be fine." Yes.

[00:50:40]And the flow, the fee- to feel each other and to sense each other.

[00:50:45]To go back to more, yeah, original programming, if you will. And let And let the left brain relax a little bit.

[00:50:53]Well, thank you so much, Chris, again for joining me and uh for offering all your wisdom around the left and the right brain and merging east and west.

[00:51:02]And it's a pleasure to be with you again. Oh, thank you so much. It was so fun and interesting and creative and wonderful vibing with you for this time.

[00:51:12]Great. And thank you for being with us.

[00:51:15]You're the reason that we're here in this community exploring our commonality.

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