Full Scottish - 17/05/2026

追加: 2026-05-23

[00:00:24]Good afternoon and welcome to Broadcasting Scotland and this week's full Scottish. My name is Isla Barker.

[00:00:30]On the program this week, we are delighted to be joined by Maureen Watt.

[00:00:33]Good afternoon, Maureen.

[00:00:35]Good afternoon, Isla. Nice to be with you. Nice to see you again. And we are also delighted to welcome William Duguid. Well, good afternoon, William.

[00:00:44]Hi, nice to be back. Indeed.

[00:00:47]To start, we will we'll begin with our Ukraine update. More than 500 Ukrainian drones attacked Russia overnight on Sunday. Russia's Defense Ministry said that air defenses shot down 556 drones in more than a dozen regions, including Moscow.

[00:01:00]The attack came after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy vowed on Friday to launch more retaliatory strikes because of an earlier Russian attack on Kyiv that killed 24 people.

[00:01:11]Russia resumed its attacks following a prisoner swap on the expiration of a three-day truce on Tuesday. On Saturday, the Trump administration allowed the Russian oil sanctions waiver to lapse.

[00:01:20]It had previously allowed countries, including India, to buy Russian seaborn oil aimed at easing oil supply shortages and high prices following the US and Israeli war in Iran, which resulted in the closure of the Strait of Hormuz.

[00:01:32]On Friday, Democratic US Senators Jeanne Shaheen and Elizabeth Warren had urged the Trump administration against renewing the waiver because it was providing revenue to Russia to aid its war in Ukraine and said there is no evidence it was bringing down fuel costs for American consumers.

[00:01:48]An unexploded projectile was discovered on a property in southeastern Romania and near the EU and NATO members' border with Ukraine on Saturday. Romania shares a 650 km or 400 mile land border with Ukraine.

[00:02:01]Russian drones attacking Ukraine's ports on the Danube River have repeatedly breached Romanian airspace and fragmented fragments have sometimes fallen on its territory.

[00:02:11]As Ukrainian forces shoot them down, the leaders of NATO's 14 Eastern flank regions this week said Russia's repeated violations of their airspace underlined the urgent need to consolidate the alliance's air defenses against missiles and drones.

[00:02:23]Several Russian and Ukrainian drones have crashed in Latvia since Russia invaded Ukraine stirring public disquiet in the small former Soviet Republic that is now a member of NATO and the EU.

[00:02:33]On Saturday, Latvian President Edgars Rinkevics proposed opposition politician Andris Šķēle as the next Prime Minister after Evika Siliņa resigned. Siliņa stepped down triggering the collapse of her coalition after she dismissed Defense Minister Andris Sprūds because of because Ukrainian drones strayed into Latvia and exploded at an oil facility. In response, his Progressive Party withdrew support from Siliņa's government on Wednesday leaving her without a parliamentary majority and exposed a no-confidence vote.

[00:03:04]Now moving on to our Middle East update.

[00:03:06]871 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since the start of the October 2025 ceasefire bringing the total number of Palestinians killed in Gaza since October 7, 2023 72,757.

[00:03:19]As the UN calls for an investigation into torture of Palestinian prisoners by Israel this weekend, thousands marched across the UK and US to mark the 70th 78th anniversary of the Nakba.

[00:03:30]Film The Monuments Men returned to TV screens this week as as a question returns, have any Palestinians ever been compensated for or had property seized by Israel restored since 1948? So, we'll start with Maureen. What if there is an investigation as called by the U- the United Nations, what consequences do you think it could have and what findings do you think can come from it?

[00:03:56]I think that's a very difficult question for me to answer.

[00:04:00]Um not being um on top of everything and clearly, you know, if the UN um does have an investigation, uh then you know, all sorts of people could be brought forward um for war crimes. So, um I think if there is an investigation, I mean, hopefully there is an investigation onto this war and this ongoing war um because clearly there are violations uh of the ceasefire perhaps even um on both sides and Israel or Netanyahu clearly don't think that they have finished all that they need to do uh in the Mid- Middle East, hence uh the continuing um uh war in in Iran, although there is a ceasefire there. So, uh it's very difficult to know what is happening about um the Middle East in general. One of the things that I think strikes me about uh our our broadcast today is that Trump is totally unable to keep more than one ball in the air at a time and this week it's China um and uh it's not we don't know what his latest thinking uh is on Iran and the Middle East or even Ukraine. So, um I think it's very difficult, but clearly no one should get away with what has happened uh in the Middle East and uh against the Palestinians.

[00:05:27]Thank you. And William, if there is an investigation, what do you think could come from it?

[00:05:33]Um I I don't even know if there's going to be a proper investigation because so often Israel is able seemingly to sidestep what the UN and others say.

[00:05:44]Um but I would hope that some form of sanction would come out of any investigation. I think the UN has verified the deaths in detention of at least 90 Palestinian detainees since the 7th of October 2023. There may be many others, although it's it's difficult to verify.

[00:06:04]And that should also absolutely be held to account.

[00:06:09]I confess to a certain amount of pessimism though about whether there is really the will to make Israel accountable for for its crimes. And indeed others in this war to be accountable for theirs.

[00:06:23]It's one of the things about the UN that you do get a lot of resolutions. I mean you talked to there about the [clears throat] restoration of of property to Palestinians. And of course there have been UN resolutions about that.

[00:06:39]But it's very very rare if indeed it ever happens at all. So it does look very much like one rule for Israel and perhaps [clears throat] other powerful nations and another rule for the rest.

[00:06:51]So I'll try to get a bit more optimistic as the program goes on but I'm not optimistic on this one.

[00:06:58]Thank you. And then so with these marches it does seem that public opinion does support Palestine and wants to hold Israel accountable. So do you think this will for example Maureen, will this push the UK and by extension the Scottish government to further support Palestine and its efforts for say self-determination or regaining some of its stolen property and homes?

[00:07:25]Well, in terms of the UK government I think they got it completely wrong at the beginning of this conflict and didn't understand that the British population was by and large in favor of Palestine and what they have had to endure even before the the invasion into Gaza.

[00:07:45]Um and so I think the the British government has been on the back back foot on this. And the fact that demonstrations continue to be held over Palestine is a testament to that.

[00:08:02]Um I think in terms of reparations, I mean that is just such a long going issue on so in so many fronts. Um and the Middle East conflict since or the situation in the Middle East since 1948 has always looked like a kind of temporary solution and um you know, reparations kind of come to the fore and then back again, fall off the agenda again. I think they're very difficult actually. I think looking back is not the answer, it's looking forward and seeing how we can help peoples um uh secure their their land and their territories in the future rather than looking back and you know, helping through various ways like economically, politically, getting stable governments is more the kind of type that I would take rather than constantly looking back to reparations. I think um you know, the culture that everybody else is to blame um is not the really the answer.

[00:09:08]You've got to take control and take responsibility and move forward.

[00:09:14]Thank you. And then William, have you become more optimistic in thinking that this could push the UK government or the Scottish government to support Palestine further?

[00:09:24]I would I would have some hopes of the Scottish government, the new Scottish government perhaps.

[00:09:29]Um I think the UK government as things stand will be dragged kicking and screaming if if if they're sort of pushed towards any sort of sanctions or or or or reparation demands against Israel, it it was a good thing to see that there was such a great turnout at the Nakba March in in in London yesterday. Um numbers number estimates do vary, but but it certainly it seems to be a large crowd that that that gathered. Um anything between 30,000 which the police expected up to a quarter of a million which the organizers claimed. And and that actually I think does show that by and large public opinion is running ahead of the government. And that eventually eventually becomes important, but it does take a bit of time.

[00:10:22]The the big problem we always seem to have is that distaste for what the state of Israel is up to is constantly being conflated with general hatred against Jewish people which is um just in my view not the case. I think hatred against Jewish people exists and should absolutely and utterly be condemned where it where it does exist.

[00:10:44]But but to conflate the two is not the answer. I mean it's quite clear that a large section of the Jewish population in the UK is against what's going on in Gaza right now. And hopefully they will continue to have their voices heard and not be drowned out. But in the end I do hope that public you know public sentiment if if expressed forcefully and in large numbers does have an effect.

[00:11:11]Thank you. And moving on to the talks with Trump and China. After talking to Putin, Trump cut support for Ukraine and undermined NATO and Europe in what seemed to be a coincidence. Now in another coincidence, Trump met with China's President Xi Jinping and then refused to confirm US arms sales to to Taiwan calling it a very small island despite its 23 million population.

[00:11:34]So, Maureen, so could the US end arm sales and general support towards Taiwan or do you think it's too early or unclear to say?

[00:11:45]My understanding is that under laws that the US have passed that they can't stop um arms aid to Taiwan. Um I'm sure Trump would have to take it to the legislatures in order for that to happen and I doubt that would um pass Well, I don't think I hope it would pass uh like the legislation. So, I know he's stopped or paused arms sales, but I think um William might be able to correct me on this. I think that by law he has to continue sales uh to Taiwan. Um it was just what I was saying earlier about how really Trump wants to be everybody's friend and particularly um people like uh Xi Jinping, you know, who powerful who run powerful countries. Um he wants to be up there um with them. I mean, he does To my mind, he doesn't need to compete. He should feel that the US is there anyway. Um but he as I say, he likes to be everybody's friends. He thinks he can uh you know, sort of gloss over everything and make peace um everywhere in the world. And unfortunately, that is rather uh a naive view and you have to dig much deeper and really get to the bottom of why people are in conflict um rather than try uh as I say, to gloss over everything.

[00:13:14]Thank you. And then, William, what do you think come of these talks? Um so, Maureen mentioned that it is potentially illegal for President Trump to stop sales to Taiwan, but what else do you you could happen outside of defense or um weapons?

[00:13:31]Um maybe not very much, really. I mean, the the the Trump visit seemed to be more about stabilization of relationships rather than any sort of of breakthrough. I know that um all the CEOs that accompanied him would would have wanted to get a lot out of it in terms of uh deals and lots of trade going on between China and the the US. And there are several strategic aspects to that as well. Um but um I'm not convinced they got what they wanted. What they got were a lot of uh reasonably woolly um not commitments, but um assertions that things might happen which would need further negotiation. So, um as much as anything else, I think it was to a certain extent Trump just showing off. Um he doesn't necessarily like to be everybody's friend. I would I would slightly disagree with Maureen there. He wants to be the friend of the powerful.

[00:14:23]And he wants to show that he too is powerful and to mix with the powerful people. And he certainly um got a wee chance to do that. Perhaps not as much as he has um when visiting other places.

[00:14:35]There did seem to be some management of him going on that I haven't perceived in other visits. Um he wasn't allowed to shoot his mouth off all the time when who knows what's going to happen next.

[00:14:48]And I think um President Xi pretty much had the whole thing under control. Um it'll be interesting to see if anything else comes out now he's back home and and ready to talk about just about anything and to post anything he likes on Truth Social because that's where you really get to know what Well, you may not be able to quite define what Trump is about except a succession of scattershot nonsense, but nevertheless, to get to get some sort of feedback about it. So, I I don't think um much really will um happen going forward. And on the Taiwan arms, well, we will see. It's It's a big package, 14 billion, and that's a lot of money.

[00:15:30]And of course, Trump will be wanting to say, yes, I can make a determination soon on this because that's what Trump will always say. But if that's the reality, who knows? Um just the slight idea now that maybe things in the US are just beginning to go against Trump a little bit. Obviously, there'll be a backlash, but between here and the midterm, it's going to be interesting to watch how the the the Republicans particularly, apart from gerrymandering all the voting districts, of course, how they position themselves so as not to have the catastrophic defeat that right now it looks like they'd otherwise be set up to have.

[00:16:10]But is Trump not underestimating the importance of Taiwan to the West in terms of a lot of its manufacturing and uh I think it's things like chips and things that are important to the West and you know, he just thinks it's a little island off China that China might well have. But I mean, its population of 23 million in terms of a world trade is really very important.

[00:16:36]And Taiwan recognizes that. I mean, it comes You know, I've seen Taiwan come with There's quite a lot of people, MPs, who in the past I know have gone to Taiwan after invitations from there and they come to party conferences in the UK as well. So, they're they're very good in terms of diplomatic relations.

[00:16:59]Oh, I certainly agree that Trump is underestimating what Taiwan is all about. No doubt about that. I mean, Trump's grip on what's really going on in the world is fairly fairly weak at the best of times and and certainly here.

[00:17:14]And yes, to to write off Taiwan effectively as a small island with 23.4 million is is a nonsense. Um and uh it is a worry what will happen with Chinese influence in Taiwan and actually more needs to be done to restrain that if indeed that's even possible. Um so it's one to watch for sure and I'd rather that it wasn't Trump's hand on the tiller as far as that was concerned, but that may be some way away yet.

[00:17:41]And do you think that the with President Trump pulling support well, military support from Ukraine and potentially Taiwan, do you think he is doing this to scale up any um presence or attacks in Iran with Israel, Maureen?

[00:18:00]Sorry, say that again in terms of >> So in So President Trump has withdrawn support from Ukraine and potentially Taiwan. Do you think he is doing this to impact the United States presence and attacks in Iran?

[00:18:18]No, I don't think he thinks that strategically to be honest. Um but I think you know, he's made it clear that you know, Europe should stop step up in terms of its NATO commitments and therefore in terms of what's going on in Europe and take over there. And we we should recognize um that in the Far East Australia and other countries in that area are stepping up. I mean, Albanese is kind of um I don't know if he's leading on it, but he's certainly um well versed in in what they need to do in the Far East in terms of defense commitments. So um what Trump you know, does anybody know whether Trump has an overarching view of what he wants to see in the world?

[00:19:07]I don't think so.

[00:19:10]And And William, what do you think of the potential increase in presence or impact in Iran from the United States?

[00:19:20]I'm I I I'm I'm not sure about it either, to be honest. Um it's it's difficult to know exactly what's going to happen with Iran in the near future, and that's still a very chaotic situation. But what is clear is um the damage it's doing to the world economy, and for American consumers, what it's doing to gas prices, which I know in the bigger scheme of things is is just one part. Uh but nevertheless, is significant in electoral terms. Um I I'm just wondering to what extent now the puppet masters are beginning to move in on Trump a little bit, and just to to try and not rein him in exactly, but try to manage who he is and what actually goes on as opposed to what he says. I don't think he has any great strategic grasp of anything. And uh he tends to react to things because of short-term perhaps circumstances, or or the latest thing that's been whispered in his ear.

[00:20:15]Um and I I think they do have a lot of management of him to go on in the next 6 months or so before we get to the midterms, and I suspect we might see more of that as time goes on.

[00:20:29]But but but we're in a in terms of history, we're in a position in the world where we've got two or three men as megalomaniacs uh running uh Russia, uh the US, and China. I mean, to certain extent, Xi Jinping seems to be the most kind of reasonable of of the three.

[00:20:52]Um and you know, we're seeing with Putin actually, I was just thinking about it when you know, doing some background reading for for today's program, that Putin seems to be a bit shaky. And as you're saying, William, you know, Trump has not got the backing of his electorate that he had when he won the election and is worried about the midterms and is worried, as you say, about the global effect of the war on Iran and on US citizens with the price of oil cuz the price of oil is just so so important to the American people. You know, they And he's sent on it and they go mad about it because you know, they run their big Chevys and whatever.

[00:21:38]But to be serious, I think Putin looks to me, I don't know he I don't know if you noticed that he walks with a limp now. I don't know whether it's he's in pain.

[00:21:48]He's apparently, you know, worried about his security and things and, you know, living all over the place in in Russia.

[00:21:55]So You know, there are chinks chinks in their armors, I think.

[00:22:01]And and that's a bit worrying cuz you never know which way megalomaniacs are going to go.

[00:22:07]Uncertainty is always worrying and and megalomaniacs always have a backlash of some sort that'll come out. And Trump is particularly unpredictable. I think you're right about Putin. I haven't noticed the limp, to be honest, but I was aware that he was getting a bit more paranoid about his security and being seen less often in public. And certainly, I think Xi Jinping has >> [clears throat] >> probably a different view of how things should be managed in the long term.

[00:22:36]China has always looked to the long term and he will probably have been thinking along the lines of, well, we'll just let these others sort of collapse in on themselves and and we'll just continue the way we were going.

[00:22:52]It certainly looks the most reasonable of the three, but of course, when if you're Taiwanese, it wouldn't seem particularly reasonable at all. And it it is a form of megalomania just the same and it's a very volatile situation for the world to be in and yeah, one to watch.

[00:23:11]But even he's got economic troubles in so far as you know, people's buying habits are perhaps changing or seems to be you know, a a section of the population who are buying less but better produced and that's not the stuff that's coming from China and then they've got the real push on uh pretty shoddy goods from Shein and Temu and things like that and companies like that. So it's not all roses in in China either.

[00:23:41]Oh no, I don't I don't I don't think I don't think she is a sort of things that is sort of roses guy. Sorry Willie, if we could just move on there. Sorry.

[00:23:48]So on to the far-right march in London.

[00:23:52]If people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, do people in 1.4 million-pound houses get to do as they like? With while their acolytes march through London draped in the St. George and Union flags calling for the deportation of migrants, what kind of flags might they be waving under a Reform UK government? So there have Now despite these protests of thousands of people potentially hundreds of thousands of people protesting against immigration and such, you know, unite the kingdom and everything with the far-right, there have been counter-protests as well. Do you think these counter-protests are as popular or as powerful as these far-right protests or is there an imbalance Maureen?

[00:24:33]Oh, you're always coming to me first.

[00:24:34]Well, I think I mean it's very unfortunate that um the Reform march is seen as against the the march um pro-Palestinian march. You know, the two shouldn't be conflated at all. I don't think they're they're very very separate. Um I don't know why it Reform and Tommy Robinson are are marching other than to stir up hatred and division and chaos in the United Kingdom. Well, it wasn't Reform. It was just far right in general.

[00:25:08]Yes, okay. It was yeah. Well, okay, sorry for completely misrepresenting it.

[00:25:12]But, that's not unreasonable I don't think.

[00:25:17]You know, to say that Reform would be against this march would be stretching it a bit, I think.

[00:25:23]Um So, it's it's it's it's a far-right agenda, if you like, um to stir up hatred and division um against immigrants. A situation, by the way, which Reform have engineered to their advantage because of Brexit. It all comes back to Brexit. And they're probably slightly clever cleverer than people realize because they've got the backing of huge uh conglomerates and hugely wealthy people um who you know, perhaps have got a vision that they're not sharing with the rest of us.

[00:26:10]Um but, I think this is all designed to bolster the prospect of a Reform government by dividing the country. And we've got a very weak in the UK government opposition to them at the moment.

[00:26:27]Um and that is why they're getting well, the coverage and and the support because the populace are fed up and skunnered by the results of you know, going way back to 2008, the financial crash, um COVID.

[00:26:45]Um and and so on. So, um that's not getting any better and it's not going to get any better soon under the current regimes, and that's why the far right are um uh you know, having these huge marches um and using scapegoats of migrants, which is absolutely abhorrent.

[00:27:08]And then, William, what do you think of these marches? Are the counter protests stronger or as strong as the far right marches?

[00:27:18]Well, yesterday's counter protest which was a counter protest in its way um which was was the Nakba Day march uh was I think a certainly a a strong strong counterpart to the far right one, and the of course the concern for the police was to keep the two apart. Um and I I think you're seeing the people feeling a need for change is reflected in in the one case in support for reform and for the sort of rallies that the United Kingdom rally was that on the one hand, and on the other hand in England and Wales at least uh for support for the Greens, which is seen as as the left-wing um alternative uh to what's going on now, which certainly can't be described as as left-wing. So, there are these two poles of opinion, and they are quite strongly represented in in in both cases. Um and to some extent for for people to have an outlet is a good thing, but clearly uh the rallies of the United Kingdom sort are not what we want to be seeing because they are pure hate, pure scapegoating, and uh yes, they can be the the popular feeling can be used to stir up people's political ambitions, and that undoubtedly has has been um done with Reform. Um I get the impression that yesterday's United Kingdom rally was a bit less numerous than its predecessor last year. That may have been something to do with 11 international activists having been blocked from coming to the UK.

[00:28:53]So, it may also be down to the fact that with reform having done so well in the English elections in particular, the council elections, that maybe they're starting to become part of the mainstream and therefore not a vehicle for protest in quite the same way because the people think maybe it'll start to get taken care of now. But certainly, it's a debate we absolutely need to have all over to to basically convince people that where change is needed, this is not the sort of change. This gets us nowhere. Jeremy Corbyn did a an nice little speech at the Nat by day rally which said, "Your hatred can succeed in dividing people, but it won't build you one council house. It won't improve one hospital, and it won't teach one child, and it won't end somebody's homeless life on the streets." And that's what we've got to be looking for the change in. And I hope that we're at a high water mark, shall we say, as far as reform and the far right are concerned. I suspect there's a long way to go, but I think the fight back is very definitely on, and I would I would encourage people to participate for the good side of this debate, and let's see where we can get to make it actually a better world instead of a more polarized world.

[00:30:15]Thank you. And moving on to the situation of the Labour Party. Labour has been tearing itself apart after the May 7 elections after a weakened Keir Starmer failed to inspire his party after his speech on Monday. And by Wednesday's King's speech, it was clear Andy Burnham was coming back when when and if he wins a Westminster seat.

[00:30:33]Then the sitting Labour MP for Makerfield said he would step aside to let Andy Burnham stand in a seat that had swung heavily behind Reform in the council elections, giving the people of the constituency the power to choose the future of the UK Prime Minister.

[00:30:46]Of the UK government, I mean. So, William, out of the speculated candidates for the new Labour Party leader, and by extension the new Prime Minister, who do you think has the best chances?

[00:31:00]That's difficult to tell at this stage because if he were to be elected, you would expect that Andy Burnham would have a very, very good chance of beating Keir Starmer, who will stand in any election.

[00:31:14]Um and uh thereby become Prime Minister.

[00:31:19]I I I think that's that's where a lot of the sentiment would lie, but it's very dubious that it's going to be an easy ride for him in Makerfield. He could well not get elected, and then where will we be? Uh we might be looking at something like Wes Streeting and/or Angela Rayner versus Keir Starmer. And um I I suspect that Keir Starmer might be able to see off Wes Streeting, um strangely enough. Wes Streeting is tainted with a lot of the the things that perhaps Keir Starmer was not, least a relationship with Peter Mandelson. Uh somebody like Angela Rayner, or really going back a bit, Ed Miliband, well, possibly they could see off Starmer, but um it's very difficult to see what will happen in Makerfield because since um the 5,000 uh majority that Josh Simons, the MP who stood down, got in 2024, things have moved on a wee bit, and in the council elections, Reform swept the board. Makerfield is um one of the uh slightly not doing so well areas of the sort of wider Manchester area. And uh it's the same old story of people looking for change and thinking this is change, and going for Reform. Reform also say, of course, they're going throw the kitchen sink at the by-election in June the 18th. And I suspect if there's a deal done, for example, with the Tories where they stand aside, that could be um very useful for Reform. And on the side of Labour, the Greens show no inclination to stand aside, and they'll possibly have a fairly heavy vote vote as well. So, Andy Burnham is perhaps the favorite, but circumstances could work against him. And if he doesn't get his position, then anything could happen, and Keir Starmer, I suspect, might even hold on.

[00:33:10]I'm somebody who said just a few days ago in the election results broadcast that he was a dead man walking. I still think he is, but there might be some animation going on there that might assist him to survive a wee bit longer than I had anticipated.

[00:33:27]Thank you. And Marine, who do you think has the best chances?

[00:33:33]Well, again, we're looking at the very big egos with a lot of these men. And again, shame on the Labour Party for not thinking that it's time for a woman leader in their ranks with shamefully never had one.

[00:33:52]I agree with William that taking the electric firm of Macclesfield for granted is a very, very dangerous strategy.

[00:34:03]William's right that Reform got something like 23 out of 24 of the seats in the council election. That's a huge, huge majority for for Reform.

[00:34:19]So, you know, Andy Andy Burnham is not a shoo-in in Macclesfield.

[00:34:26]But if he were and and Keir and Andy and Wes and we're in the leadership then I just don't know with the Labour Party how the votes would fall.

[00:34:39]But how on earth did we get here? We expected latterly this behavior from the Tories and I don't think anybody who voted for a Labour landslide in 2024 expected this from Labour and you know the international community who are talking about what on earth is happening and in the UK at the moment are just they're very right to think what on earth is happening and to the UK and and I think that all of the cabinet members need to take some responsibility.

[00:35:13]And yes and Kier Starmer is at the top of the tree, but why have they and cabinet members not been doing their jobs to make sure that in their portfolio things are moving forward and for the Westminster government. Okay, Kier does like to be you know at the center of world events and center stage and at these things. And and yes he they made fundamental area errors in terms of the two-child gap and the pensioners winter and fuel payment right at the beginning so it's been very difficult and to claw things back. And has Kier got a real wake-up call and got a strategy to come out of this and still stay on top.

[00:36:01]And I tend to agree with William that he's probably and a dead man walking, but the idea of having Wes Streeting just horrifies me. And you know Andy Burnham's hyped up by the media to such an extent. But I'm old enough to remember what it was like before and he wasn't that good.

[00:36:22]Then what what is wrong with Wes Streeting and Andy Burnham for the younger viewers of this broadcast.

[00:36:30]I just I Well, it's egos.

[00:36:33]You know, their ego is driving everything. And you know, okay, you know, they they tried yesterday to to begin to set out a strategy. But for most of these people, it's the I want the power rather than what I'm going to do with the power. And I think if they concentrated on what I'm going to do with the power, then, you know, for all three of them, then and we had a plan of for how we're going to revitalize the UK economy and and set sort out the debt and everything. I mean, maybe I'm missing it, but I've not seen any of them set out what their manifesto would be. And I don't just mean their manifesto.

[00:37:16]I mean, their vision for the future in this country.

[00:37:22]And they're not doing that.

[00:37:26]Hey, thank you.

[00:37:26]>> I I agree with that pretty well. Our vision is the same and it's lacking. And I'd also vision of what the Labour Party used to be. Um and looked like it might be going back to with Jeremy Corbyn and and ever since that experience they've gone completely against it. And it does tend to be um the center right bit of the Labour Party that seems to have have the upper hand.

[00:37:50]And as as Maureen says, yes, it is largely men and male egos. Although I do think Angela Rayner might want to think about what she might do um just to try and bust that up a bit, but whether she would get anywhere, I don't know.

[00:38:06]But I I I also think there's because people are so frustrated, there's this polarization of politics. The center ground is kind of collapsing in on itself. You know, that's it's happened to the Tories already. Is it happening to the Labour Party, too? And we're going to get the Greens, cuz the Greens, if they're not standing down, might do very well in the by-election. So, that as I said, the outcome isn't certain.

[00:38:32]And we've seen the rise of the Greens both in Scotland and and in England, and I think night none of the centrist parties in the UK scenario have thought about what the future should look like. And that's why people are polarizing to the left and the right.

[00:38:55]So, then William, do you think Starmer Kier Starmer might still have hope for leading the Labour Party? Is there any chance?

[00:39:04]Yes, there is, because he's he's just recorded Well, I don't know what the number of ultimately went up to, but when the sort of 81 votes were being gathered or not gathered by when he was treating he was getting support from over 100 of his MPs.

[00:39:25]Whether that's reflected in the wider party, which must be very very frustrated with the way things have gone since 2024, I don't know, but it means he has a chance, because I can see circumstances in which he could be perceived by the party as the least bad option. And at least at least if not a safe pair of hands, a pair of hands that will keep things going for a while. And they know they're in trouble when it comes to the next UK election as things stand.

[00:39:56]And they need to work on alleviating that problem, because we're all going to be in trouble, I think, if Reform UK get in in 2029 or whenever it is. It may be sooner than that.

[00:40:08]But he's got a chance. [clears throat] It's just that every time he tries to relaunch himself, it just falls flat.

[00:40:14]And that can't be having much of an impression on the Labour membership, really. So, um I I I think ultimately he will go. Um I suspect that Burnham will probably sneak through and make her feel, but it's by no means nailed on. And I wouldn't really think that any of the others is is a viable contender right now.

[00:40:35]Somebody else may emerge, but I don't think anybody else currently is looking like it.

[00:40:42]Thank you.

[00:40:42]>> I think you're In fact, sorry. I think you're very right, because I mean, Keir Starmer has not um you know, to the extent that he could have said, "Look, I got in with a stonking majority in 2024. The electorate put their trust in me. Yes, I've made a few mistakes, but, you know, they did put their trust in me."

[00:41:04]Somebody who comes in will not have the mandate. It's I think the mandate I think Johnson he was saying that in an interview um earlier this week that having the mandate yourself is really important, especially to them, and I think it is to the electorate as well. And people are sick and tired of an of elections. Um you know, they are not going to come out every year to vote uh when it should be every four or every five years that that that are coming out to vote. Uh you know, not including the council elections. So, um people are just wanting politicians to get on with it and get on with governing them so that they can feel better that hard work is paying off um and that they can, you know, maybe just relax a bit, because everybody's on tenterhooks. And they're, you know, a large large section are really worried about reform, but they're not seeing another party that's in a position to stand up to them at the moment. And that is really scary.

[00:42:09]I can't disagree with that. Yeah.

[00:42:12]So, then in the next few weeks, what do you think could happen to the Labour government in not just in terms of the leadership race anything? Yes, and West Streeting said that the UK should return to the EU, which has undermined what Burnham has said. So, then what what do you think could come of that, William?

[00:42:32]Um I don't think anything will happen quickly on that. And there is a danger that um not much will move forward at all while the leadership is in question.

[00:42:41]Um and and that that that that's part of the another problem from as soon as you've got one problem and you add to it, then your problems just proliferate.

[00:42:49]Um in terms of uh coming back to the EU, um I thought for a moment when Keir Starmer was doing his little um relaunch speech, so to speak, that he was about to pull a flanker and say, "We're going back into the EU at the earliest opportunity." But he then immediately watered it down into sort of better relations and all that sort of thing. Um I I do think um that it would be a very interesting uh debate um if we went I think we're thinking in terms of going back into the the EU right now. Um I think it would personally, I think it would do us a lot of good. Um I would I would be a bit worried about what it did to um what I'm currently arguing in the Scottish independence campaign, but certainly um I think it it it it would probably do the UK a lot of good and indirectly and actually Scotland.

[00:43:35]Um but I don't see it at the moment. I don't I I Wes Streeting I don't think has got the main channel of opinion within the Labour Party right now. Although it's hard to grasp who actually does, perhaps. Um and I'm not sure actually what Andy Burnham's view on it would be if if he were to get in. So, um maybe in the future. Maybe in the future and and uh I'm I'm hearing in my ear he may be pretty pro-EU, but I don't think it would be an immediate thing, personally.

[00:44:05]Mhm.

[00:44:06]Thank you. And Maureen, what are your thoughts on this? Could the UK join rejoin the EU or could the debate at least reopen?

[00:44:13]And what would it do to the independence campaign as William mentioned?

[00:44:18]Well, I I see um where William's coming on this, but can we not just turn around and say, "Well, who was right then?"

[00:44:27]>> [laughter] >> The SNP all along and the Scottish people actually who didn't want to come out of the EU in the first place. So, hopefully it would strengthen um the SNP government's hand saying that we were right all along, the Scottish people were right all along.

[00:44:44]And while they mess about down in Westminster, can we just get on with getting into uh the EU ourselves? But maybe I'm being a bit flippant um but it just I mean, this whole conversation has just highlighted just how weak Westminster is and I mean, you know, most of the parties in in Westminster and that they're they're just playing around with us and that is not government um and you know, why internationally we are our reputation is really um crashing.

[00:45:17]And to be honest, I don't I absolutely don't know how it's going to pan out because this idea that Andy Burnham might be the savior over the water is a very dangerous strategy.

[00:45:31]Thank you. And moving on to our Holyrood update. On Thursday, MSPs were sworn in and Kenny Gibson was elected to be presiding officer.

[00:45:41]>> [clears throat] >> Liam McArthur had been the favorite, but surprisingly he did not receive the backing of the pro-union parties he might have expected. Ahead of the election of the First Minister on Tuesday, the Lord Advocate Dorothy Bain QC announced her resignation. So, Reform gained no constituency seats, but they did gain some regional list seats.

[00:46:00]I believe they have 17. So, then what impact could the Reform MPs or pro-union MPs as well have what impact could they have on the selection of cabinets, William?

[00:46:14]Uh MSPs, you mean? Yeah, uh >> Sorry.

[00:46:18]Uh uh I think they will Reform will be entitled, if that's if that's the word, to uh seats on committees.

[00:46:26]Uh and uh I I I I fear they will be a fairly disruptive influence on those committees, but um they they will be a a certain level of entitlement that they've they've got where they will uh pretty well have to go on there. I don't think they can be kept off the committees. I know that the main parties are saying, "We will not um sort of have talks with them." Uh and and that's not just the SNP, but others.

[00:46:48]But um it'll be quite interesting to see exactly what goes on with uh with Reform and and whether they, you know, what strength they've got in the committees and and what what they can make of it, either good or ill. Um in in terms of the cabinet, I don't think it will uh change any of um what John Swinney is currently considering, and uh I presume that uh he will be elected First Minister on Tuesday, and uh then soon after we will see um I'll be quite interested who uh the Deputy First Minister will be, and uh and I'd like to see some of the the the the stronger people with experience who actually came into the Scottish Parliament for the first time. I'd like to see what they can make of of of of whatever opportunities there might be for them.

[00:47:35]And I'd also like to see who the the the the sort of upcoming potential stars will be of those who got in, and I'm thinking maybe it's a bit early yet, but I'm thinking of people like Hannah Mary Goodlad in in Shetland. So, we'll be watching that fairly closely over the next little while, and uh let's see what happens.

[00:47:54]Thank you. And then, Maureen, what do you think the cabinet could look like as William mentioned the new stars of Hollywood? Who do you think they could be?

[00:48:03]Oh, can I say for a start that the all the new intake need to learn how the Scottish Parliament works. It's very different from the Westminster Parliament. And especially those who have come from having served in Westminster will probably get a shock about how uh they have to be on committees, probably two committees because often the SNP um when they were in Westminster were not on committees. So, there's an awful lot that they have got to learn and I would have thought that uh immediately sending uh too many of them into cabinet could work out very badly. Um there's a lot of talent, yes, in the new intake, but I think you have to learn how the Scottish Parliament works um first of all before um you you think about wanting to to be a minister. And a lot of them again may well go think that they can swan into cabinet and be able to do this, that, and the next thing, but I think they'll get a shock because John Swinney will have quite a grip on on what is happening and how they perform if they do get a cabinet position. Um I think as William said, there are a lot of people like Hannah Mary, but I'm sure Hannah Mary herself would want to to find out exactly how Parliament works um and use her um status um as having had a Shetland manifesto to see if what she can get out of of the SNP government for Shetland and I'm sure she'll be quite successful um on that. Um So, yes, it's going to be very interesting reform. I understand are swaggering about in twos or threes.

[00:49:58]Apparently, they're on a charm offensive to show that they're not really that bad. I think they probably have the most to learn. Um, and I think they will be shocked that they have to um, give up probably give up the jobs that they do at the moment and have to be there uh, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And as William said, uh, serve on committees.

[00:50:25]Um, in terms of the um, presiding officer, yeah, there was a a real shock that um, um, that Liam didn't get it. I like William, I thought like William, I thought he was um, kind of destined for it. Um, I think that's a result of him having pioneered the um, um, the assisted dying bill. Um, some people still resent um, that. Um, I think um, I think there are disruptors now in the Scottish Parliament. Um, and I don't just put it all at Reform's door.

[00:51:06]Um, I think there are probably people who want not just to disrupt disrupt but destroy the Scottish Parliament. I think we should be watching uh, out for this and I think that's possibly why the lad, Kenny Gibson, got uh, elected as a presiding officer. But um, I think that he is um, very much committed to the Scottish Parliament. And although he has to give up his membership very much um, an SNP man.

[00:51:37]Um, and I think he will not stand for for any nonsense. Although he said he wants to make it more interesting, which is fine. So, um, and he's got two very competent women deputies, so um, we'll see how it pans out.

[00:51:54]So then the SNP likes to maintain a gender balance between the First Minister and the Deputy. So then who do you think has the best chances of being the Deputy, Maureen?

[00:52:06]Um, well, he has said he's wanted a gender-balanced uh, cabinet again. I think cabinet might be smaller or the whole ministerial team might be smaller.

[00:52:14]I think he has said that there needs to be uh, reform um, and um, uh, reshuffling in in the in the Scottish government civil servants servants, so and service, so there might be cut in departments there for a cut in ministerial uh, posts.

[00:52:34]Um, I'm not I don't know um, whether he will have a female deputy, but if he did, I'm sure it would be Maureen McAllan.

[00:52:45]Okay, and then William, who do you think is the leading contender?

[00:52:51]Well, somewhat boringly for the purposes of this program, I agree with Maureen. I think Maureen McAllan is potentially the standout candidate to be Deputy Leader, and I think no, she is highly regarded within the party and uh, certainly has done an impressive job with her uh, portfolio so far. So, I would also think Maureen McAllan, if she wants it, um, would be the Deputy Leader, but let us see.

[00:53:14]Okay, thank you very much. And then, so with Kenny Gibson, y- y- Maureen, you said that you were hoping Liam McArthur would become the Presiding Officer, but with Kenny Gibson, what do you think Holyrood could look like under Kenny Gibson as the Presiding Officer?

[00:53:30]No, I said I thought that Liam would be a shoo-in, um, you know, um, because the SNP has such a majority, it didn't really matter. There are times when the SNP haven't put forward anyone for presiding officer because the arithmetic um was too tight in the parliament. So, we're not in that situation now, and that's probably why a lot of SNP members um put uh themselves forward. Um Sorry. Um so, the quick you know, how Kenny Gibson will um work? Well, you know, Kenny is You know, I I I like Kenny. He's got a colorful past, but um I was in Namibia with him once on a uh trip to um to help the newly uh newly elected members of the Namibian parliament get to grips with their new job. Um he's extremely well-read. Um I'm sure he will have some innovative ideas. Um but, we just have to to wait and see how that pans out.

[00:54:38]And then, William, what do you think Kenny Gibson as presiding officer could um create? Or what could it be like?

[00:54:47]Well, he he he certainly knows the parliament backwards. He was he's he's one of only four MSPs who was part of the the group elected in 1999. He hasn't had continuous membership of the parliament because he was out of parliament between 2003 and 2007. But, um he knows how the parliament works backwards. He is well-regarded within the parliament. He has said he wants to bring um backbenchers into things a wee bit more. And I'm I'm hoping that for the the new intake from all parties, quite a lot of new MSPs, um he would be a good guiding hand for them as to how things should operate. Um so, I I I I expect um I I don't know quite what he means by saying the era of the dull parliament is at an end, but I expect some of the films of what's going on at Hollywood to be a wee bit more um exciting than perhaps they were in the past. That's no criticism of previous presiding officers, of course. And uh I wish him well.

[00:55:43]Thank you. And just very quickly, we are moving on to Eurovision. Bulgaria won while five countries boycotted the contest. So, should it have gone ahead?

[00:55:52]Um William, do you think this could be a signal of new change for Eurovision?

[00:55:57]There were sev- several boycotts and potentially rigged [clears throat] voting systems with Israel coming in Oh, I see. Bless you, Murray.

[00:56:06]Um with Israel coming in second place for the second year running despite calls from several countries to um remove Israel from the competition.

[00:56:15]Should it have gone ahead?

[00:56:18]Um there were there were arguments for it going ahead and and and not going ahead.

[00:56:23]Um a lot of people wanted it to go ahead. I do know that. But also, um there should have been a big a big question mark, I think, about whether Israel should have participated.

[00:56:33]Not least because um Russia was put out of the competition when uh Ukraine um happened. And um you've got yourself a whacking great double standard there. Um so, I I I think some consideration should have been given to and and there should maybe be a general rule rather than making it look like you're you're sort of going against particular countries, but you I think there should have been a general rule that basically um if you're if you're at war, um you're not taking part in Eurovision.

[00:57:03]That might actually cut it down quite a bit, but nevertheless, that would be a more consistent standard.

[00:57:09]Um but I I think that everything is morally gray at the moment, and certainly there was a a lot of moral grayness about what went on yesterday. Um I'm not a Eurovision fan myself, so I didn't even watch it. But um it's it's a difficult one, just as everything seems to be difficult in the current world um with its many polarities.

[00:57:31]Yes. And Murray, do you think Eurovision should have gone on this year?

[00:57:36]You know, it's light entertainment. You know, it's not, you know, political debate or anything. Um it gets such a lot of coverage. It's quite unbelievable.

[00:57:47]I mean, it's as I say, it's an entertainment program. People, you know, really love it or really hate it. Um and like William, I don't watch it. Um but I remember doing it, watching it in >> [clears throat] >> when Katie Boyle was actually the the compere of it. Um and there was none of this carry on. Um it's got maybe too big now, and it's not Eurovision >> [clears throat] >> in the sense of it's only European countries uh participating in it. How on earth Australia got into it, I do not know, but we need to put this in perspective. It's light entertainment, and as William said, there ought to be some sort of policy about who has to do what before they're excluded or allowed in or whatever.

[00:58:34]Thank you.

[00:58:35]Well, that is it for this week's Full Scottish. Before I go, I just want to remind you that at Broadcasting Scotland, we depend we depend on the generosity of our supporters. To everyone who has donated and to everyone who has signed up to make a regular monthly payment, thank you very much. We can only exist with your support.

[00:58:52]Our programs will always be free to view. However, if you can afford £5 a month, please consider becoming a Broadcasting Scotland supporter, and please donate whatever you can afford.

[00:59:00]Thank you, and thank you again to our guest Maureen Watt Thank you.

[00:59:05]>> and William Duguid.

[00:59:08]Thank you.

[00:59:09]Goodbye, and thank you for watching.

[00:59:24]Call out.

[00:59:25]>> Oh.

[00:59:42]>> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Oh.