Senzo Meyiwa Trial: Adv Mnisi Pushes Back as Judge Ratha Questions His Argument

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[00:00:00]question clarification questions based on the questions that you've been taken through by my learned colleague. Now, >> now you were asked to describe the cells at the holding cells at Valyria SAPS and its fixes what it contains. Remember that?

[00:00:40]Are there electrical plugs and electrical sockets within the cell holding cell itself?

[00:00:50]No.

[00:00:56]Are there any conceal are there any spaces within the cells where an object like a cell phone may be concealed for no?

[00:01:22]No.

[00:01:32]And regarding are there are there plumbing features basins and toilets in within the subs?

[00:01:49]And describe those will they have spaces, nooks and crannies where an item like a cell phone will be concealed in the basin or in the toilet itself.

[00:02:11]Oh no.

[00:02:19]Now you were also asked about the cell searches. Remember that?

[00:02:26]>> Yes.

[00:02:27]>> How often in your experience are the cell searches conducted?

[00:02:40]It depends.

[00:02:46]It depends when we when there's a hand over it can be said. Okay, let's search the cells.

[00:03:08]within the four five months that Mr. Antanzi was held in detention at Vera would a cell search have been conducted within that period.

[00:03:29]I cannot remember Now let's move to a different aspect. It was put to you that Sergeant Muani says he found a cell phone within the cell that was holding the stanza. Remember that?

[00:04:02]Yes.

[00:04:10]>> Now I must be fair to you ma'am your station commander left tenant cola captain Meni who was the relief commander on the day on the 7th of February 2021. They've testified in these courts and they have both told this honorable court that as high ranking officials within that station they did not receive any report from any member at the Valeria police station that on that day the 7th of February 2021 a cell phone was found or casani >> [clears throat] >> number two.

[00:05:07]Okay.

[00:05:09]Okay. Okay.

[00:05:25]Okay.

[00:05:26]>> And regarding self searches, inspections and visits, you were asked of the items that are normally usually prohibited.

[00:05:34]You check for cigarettes. Remember that?

[00:05:57]And items for example ma'am like weapons, knives, nailers, cell phones, will they also be considered contraband or prohibited items within the cells?

[00:06:32]Let's move to a different aspect.

[00:06:35]It was put to you that Sergeant Muan says that when he he found a cell phone on the person of Unanzi on the property of Unanzi which are the blankets allocated by the state he stated that he did not enter that cell phone in the registers. Remember that?

[00:07:10]I remember that.

[00:07:24]Now ma'am, is it permissible under standing orders, directives and regulations for a police officer to seize an item of evidence from a suspect at the holding cells and not enter it into the official registers at the police station where it is allegedly obtained.

[00:08:02]No, highly improbable.

[00:08:18]And ma'am, if such a an object or item is seized and obtained without being entered into the relevant official registers at the SAPS.

[00:08:34]uh what consequences does that have on the chain of custody of that item as a piece of evidence?

[00:08:42]You know my lord these issues did not come out as a result of cross examination my lord and I do not recall asking the witness about chain of custody even the earlier question wherein I said it was m did not enter the exhibit into the I did not touch those aspects let me respond to the latter one and I'll withdraw this one of chain of custody message the the the one whether Moane said I did not enter the phone into the register I wrote it even in my contemporarious notes it was the question that was posed but ma'am let's not waste time these are matters of argument now let me come to this side now when Muani and Mana as police officers that are investigating they are not based at Valeria SAP PS visitanzi individually or collectively. Is there anywhere at Valyria where they sign to show that they have visited number.

[00:10:13]Yes.

[00:10:25]Where would they make the entries?

[00:10:29]visiting book.

[00:10:31]>> There's a visiting book.

[00:10:40]>> And would that be a general public visiting book or a separate visiting book for police officers?

[00:11:00]is for for every anybody. But after they finish whatever they came there for, they must fill in the OB.

[00:11:22]Thank you ma'am. Those are the issues that I wanted to clarify with you as the courtes.

[00:11:28]>> Yeah.

[00:11:30]I do have few questions that I would also love to clarify informed earlier on prior to the commencement of her testimony that she could be down with some she could be >> she's she's a flu.

[00:11:50]>> So I don't sound unkind to her. I know.

[00:11:56]>> What time is it now?

[00:12:02]>> 16 minutes past 3:00.

[00:12:07]>> Are you still comfortable, man?

[00:12:09]>> Was that all right?

[00:12:10]>> Yes.

[00:12:11]>> Yes, I am. My lord, >> can you last another 15 minutes?

[00:12:17]>> Yes, I can.

[00:12:18]>> Yes.

[00:12:19]>> Yeah, we got a fit lady.

[00:12:22]Yeah, she says she can last another 15 minutes.

[00:12:25]>> I'm going to beond.

[00:12:28]>> I'm saying I go beyond 15 minutes.

[00:12:31]>> Just go for 15 minutes because that's what she says she's capable of sustaining.

[00:12:36]>> Okay.

[00:12:37]>> Yeah.

[00:12:48]Thank you, ma'am. [clears throat] Thank you ma'am. This is not a cross examination but just clarification questions. Do you understand?

[00:13:05]>> Okay.

[00:13:06]>> Yes.

[00:13:06]>> Thank you. Now you told the court that um there would be searches in the cells.

[00:13:20]in order to determine whether there no contraband or substances or items that are not wanted in the sense not so why Did this happen >> to check whether a suspect is not in possession of such items?

[00:14:08]>> Yes. The reason why should they not have this man? Very short. Why are there why are the tenants allowed to not allowed to have those items that you mentioning amongst them the the the secret the nail keepers and all those items which are are not allowed in the cells.

[00:14:31]>> They may injure each other by using those items.

[00:14:43]Thank you.

[00:14:44]Now when investigating officers or whoever brings a person and in terms of the law that person is supposed to be detained in your cells.

[00:15:00]We're talking now about What do you do before that detain gets locked up in the cells?

[00:15:23]>> The police will come there office and book the the suspect in our in our books. Yes.

[00:15:39]Yes.

[00:15:41]One of the CSC member or two of the members to the cells.

[00:15:46]>> Then they [clears throat] will accomp be accompanied by one of the CSC members to the cell. One or two of the members.

[00:16:09]When they arrive at the cells, the suspect is searched.

[00:16:18]Members of the church office members of of the church office will then hand over blankets and mattresses and show them the place to sleep.

[00:16:44]Thank you ma'am. You say the suspect before it is taken to get locked in the cells that suspect gets searched. That's all.

[00:17:04]This court has this many times that um in circumstances where that search that you're referring to now happens and the suspect gets to be and some items which is not a desirable item in the cell gets found in his possession or a possession that gets confisticated. Is that what you also know or do?

[00:17:38]Yes.

[00:17:51]No. I said this court has had many a times that where a person is to be locked in the cells that person get searched first before they get detained. And if there item that are found in his or her position that gets confiscated.

[00:18:26]So yes now is that what should be happening?

[00:18:54]happening in terms of the standing orders that we've been referring that have been referred to by the state.

[00:19:03]Yes.

[00:19:15]And many times this court has heard that those confisticated items get recorded either in the SAP 13 if it will eventually be used in ex as an exhibit.

[00:19:45]Yes, if it's an exhibit, yes, it's noted in the SAP 13.

[00:20:00]Now if the item that is found in the possession of that detainee or the suspect is not something that will later on be used then as as an exhibit then that gets registered in SAP22 which is referred to as a prisoner's properties register.

[00:20:32]SAP22.

[00:20:53]But beyond that there is this book that is is called SAP 10 which is an occurrence book. All that that I've mentioned gets recorded in that OB book in that occurrence book which is almost like a master plan like like like the nucleus of everything that is happening in the police station.

[00:21:27]Yes, they must be noted.

[00:21:36]>> Thank you ma'am.

[00:21:39]Now the states in their cross examination to you they say Moane and Mena after having received information that a choose number two had a phone with him in the cells. They rushed there and they were able to find it.

[00:22:13]number two.

[00:22:19]Okay. Yes.

[00:22:34]Thank you, ma'am.

[00:22:35]Um now against the background that you also confirm being the process that gets followed before a detainee get placed in in in in in the cells.

[00:23:00]the the the what what are probabilities?

[00:23:08]What are probabilities that after that process that we've just mentioned now has been followed that a prisoner that a detain could still be found with a cell in their possession? [clears throat] My lord, my colleague is inviting the witness to speculate.

[00:23:30]This is not a speculation mad. This is >> talking about probability.

[00:23:34]>> Yes.

[00:23:35]>> Yeah. So probability encapsulates speculative answers.

[00:23:44]Let me put it in a in a in a different way.

[00:23:51]The process that we have sketched to make sure that a person does not take into the cells something that is not allowed in the cells has been followed.

[00:24:12]Yes.

[00:24:22]Now that is if that process is followed to the latter of the law.

[00:24:45]Yes.

[00:24:46]>> Would a person still be found with a cell phone in the cells?

[00:24:54]Furthermore, the witness testified she does not know what time was the cell phone or the search was conducted. She was only there for hours probably the state does not understand.

[00:25:11]>> I understand >> and that is by design. The fact that they they they pretend not to understand is by design. The evidence before this court mal is that nanza has been in that custody has been at feria for more than five months four to five months.

[00:25:28]So what about that?

[00:25:31]>> That is the basis of the question that I'm asking.

[00:25:33]>> I'm just saying.

[00:25:34]>> Yes. So the misunderstanding is by design >> is it?

[00:25:40]>> Yes.

[00:25:42]But nonetheless, thank you ma'am.

[00:25:45]The state is saying that is speculation.

[00:25:47]But are you trying to make a proposition that contraband can be smuggled into the police station?

[00:25:59]>> No. No. No.

[00:26:00]>> Because it can be. Everybody knows that it can be.

[00:26:03]>> No, I do not know.

[00:26:05]>> I'm not.

[00:26:06]>> Okay. Let me tell you about something you may know. Nelson Mandela >> smuggled >> Long Walk to Freedom.

[00:26:13]>> Yes.

[00:26:13]>> It's about 800 pages.

[00:26:15]>> Yes. using Maharaj. Yes.

[00:26:18]>> At Robin Island.

[00:26:20]>> Yes.

[00:26:21]>> Doesn't that tell you something?

[00:26:24]>> I'm I'm I'm hearing that for the first time.

[00:26:26]>> For the first time. Okay. Get get educated.

[00:26:29]>> So, it it is possible to smuggle.

[00:26:31]>> No.

[00:26:31]>> People wait. People smuggle contraband at the police station.

[00:26:36]>> Yes.

[00:26:37]>> Putting by eating it. Swallowing Mandre tablets.

[00:26:40]>> Yes.

[00:26:41]>> Inside their >> Hello. Just just stand up ma'am.

[00:26:44]>> Okay.

[00:26:46]Just I want to see it. Haven't you heard about that?

[00:26:53]>> I call them people. People swallowing contraband meaning tablets or other forms of tablets in in a in a duct of a of a lung of a of a rubber and selling it. We've never I've heard about this.

[00:27:22]We all know about it. We read about it in the press.

[00:27:27]So, it is possible. That's why the Department of Justice Department of Correctional Services conducts periodic searches, surprise periodic searches.

[00:27:36]And I'm told and advised that people also smuggle television sets into the cells. This is job television set into the cells. You have never heard of it.

[00:27:52]>> TV whatever.

[00:27:57]>> I did not hear about TV.

[00:28:03]Okay. 19 tomorrow.

[00:28:06]>> I'm not done.

[00:28:08]>> Wait, what's the time?

[00:28:12]>> What?

[00:28:13]>> 1532.

[00:28:14]>> That's it. I said 50 minutes. I said 15 minutes. That's what I said.

[00:28:20]>> Yeah. Yeah. He knows she's an intelligent lady.

[00:28:23]Tomorrow >> again.

[00:28:26]>> Okay.

[00:28:27]You know what? This is worrying me. Your brother. Do you have a brother?

[00:28:33]>> Yeah. You don't have >> You don't have >> I have >> Liuru who went to you don't have to answer anything. He was amongst the first inas in the 50s >> to leave the countries. That's not a guy. Is that that's a guy?

[00:28:50]>> Yeah. Yes, of course.

[00:28:53]Right. Okay.