This dialogue strips the Silicon Valley gloss to show that high-status "optimization" is no shield against the raw, leveling reality of the opioid crisis. It reframes the grueling work of sobriety as the ultimate executive turnaround, proving that the hardest system to debug is the human soul.
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A Decade Long Addiction to Opioids | How I Broke the Chains and Got Clean & Sober
Added:I was 60.
tablets in a bottle.
Sat there, one behind the other I ate them all by myself, I ate them. I probably took three a quarter of a bottle, maybe 40 pieces.
Billy, thank you for that.
came. This summer in You will be 9 years old.
Nine years in June.
June.
June 17.
This is in two months, dude. Congratulations. I wanted to postpone a little interview so that it got to mine nine years old, but I decided that I wanted to do it now. And I was delighted.
In fact, maybe go out. No, no, no. So until the moment of release I will be around 30-35.
episodes in stock.
So until yours comes out the episode will take place a few months, yes which may coincide.
That's how it should be. Yes and It must be, brother.
Class of 2017, right?
No, I was uh senior graduate schools.
No, no, no. Sorry. Of sobriety.
Sobriety. Yes.
Yes. You are the class of 2017.
, I never said that I thought. Yes, 2017 edition year for sobriety.
I can't believe it's 2017 was 9 years ago.
This is amazing.
I want to praise you.
by Thank you.
such a long time maintenance.
Uh, 9 years is a long time.
long. 9 days—that's it too long.
Considering what we said, similar choice of drugs.
Given that we used. 9 days—that's very long 9 years— it especially when you count days, you count the hours, days, then weeks, then months. Eventually when you start to count the years, all this somehow merges into one.
You know, like I said, I I sit and think about these nine years.
God, what am I anyway?
did you work? This is almost as much as I was addicted.
Yes.
And those years seemed much longer than years of sobriety. Yes.
Do you understand what I mean?
Years of sobriety fly by instantly. AND years of use, as it seemed to me, dragged endlessly. Yes.
Do you understand what I mean?
Therefore, so you're from Rhode Island.
Yes, I am.
born and raised there.
Born and raised.
Before we move on to your childhood, I I would like to hear a brief description of what how was it at the end your last day use.
What state were you in?
How was it and what was it?
your choice. If you could have told me that, That would be great.
Yes. So, my the last day, officially the last day of use, was 16 June. Moved to 17- because it was already after midnight. So I I say June 17, but 16- hey...i took a week vacation, because my mental state was terrible, I was so disturbing and depressed, that hard to imagine. I was not my own. I distanced himself from everyone. I literally came home from work home, locked himself in bedroom and didn't leave until the next day.
That's how it was. A 15- On June 16th and 16th I just sitting in room with drugs, played video games, watched movies, listened to music and just crying, remembered his father, which he lost in early age. IN My head was spinning, everything that happened with me for the last 20 years something years of life.
Yes.
I thought about my mother, her health, about brother and about what we don't communicate—in general about everything in the world. My the head just went a whirlwind of thoughts. I continued to use, but never did injections, none intravenous. I always just sniffed.
But I was making a path every hour, so that, probably, support this state. But on the night of the 16th, or more precisely on the 15th, I felt completely bad. That's when I felt full mental breakdown. I sat down.
Took a huge dose— one that would have me to cut down But not knocked out. I was sitting on bed, took a notebook and wrote two notes.
One to my brother, and the other— to mom. Explained, What I'm going through, in What condition am I in, and apologized for all that the [ __ ] he did to them for 10 years of use.
Just asking.
sorry for everything did. I planned to die that night. I was exhausted. I was ready to give up. I didn't see any then recovery option. Not saw the possibilities live soberly. I didn't even know how it was make. I don't have there were resources. Not there was support. My family, at that time Mom knew that I indulged in pills, but didn't know about true scale problems right up to the end. So, I'm all this wrote down in notes, Do you understand? And sat there.
I had a bottle.
Advil PM. I just bought it.
, because at that time I even I didn't sleep. That is, to me literally had to drink Nyquil, or Advil PM, everything I could to get to sleep.
I had to accept them.
every night, just to get at least a few hours of sleep hours. So, in a bottle there were 60 tablets.
I sat there and one by one swallowed them all at once, swallowed. I accepted, probably three quarters bottles, maybe pieces 40. And while I, you know, added a note to moms, not even finished it. I fainted. It was around 9-10 pm. So I left.
notes on the bed and locked himself in a room.
Nobody knows me.
checked. As I already said they didn't even knew how much mine has gone too far use. And they literally lived for 3 meters from me. They didn't have any the idea that it is strange, but they do nothing knew. So, waiting to death, I accepted all these pills. Not expected that I will wake up.
Woke up the next morning, as if out of his mind. some shocked. All bed in vomit.
I guess I got bored.
in a dream. Majority pills that I accepted, went out outside. Therefore, vomiting was all over the bed, all over floor. It was possible to see small blue pills in vomit directly on me. Yes. So I, uh, shook himself, you know, changed clothes and went to the shower. Mom was in the living room. Mom has disability, therefore she is home 24 hours a day per day. So I passed.
past her. I had pants in vomit. I took off his shirt. Went to shower. Came out of the shower and just passed by her again. She tried talk to me.
What are you doing? What happened? Whatever.
I don't at all.
reacted to the fact that she is to me appeals. Passed past. Returned to your room and just put on headphones. On That time was probably 10-11 am. So the whole that day, it was already The 16th number. All day I just sat there. I was wearing headphones.
I was lying in bed. And in I was not there.
dope. I don't have there was nothing somewhere three days before that. IN I don't really there was nothing that I believed. So, I'm coming in.
to your room, I turn off the TV, complete darkness, just I put in my headphones and for some reason, I don't know if can be called performers, you... Say what you want.
But I was listening to Adele.
Yes.
Now, I'll explain later.
why, but I... Do you want me to were made fun of for being you Do you listen to Adele? No.
Adele is just a beast.
No, she...she's wonderful.
She is just a beast.
But yes, Adele listened, and her songs—they're like... very sad if sit down and figure it out text and all that. So Why am I doing this to myself?
I don't know, but I did just drove myself into an even deeper hole, in yet deeper depression, listening to this [ __ ].
But... that's where my mind was.
I just...I was full.
This is up to my neck, man.
So I listened to her, I listened a couple more songs, that's all depressing [ __ ] dude. I just wanted to get out of your head, focus on this [ __ ]. And here I am literally sat there there all day, somewhere from 10-11 am to 7-8 pm, lying in bed and staring at the ceiling.
At that moment I painted mine room in black. So like an abyss, a ceiling, The walls, everything was black.
Painted everything room in black.
So, I'm looking at I'm thinking about myself: how the hell am I not died last night? It was the main idea in my head: how am I accepted so much [ __ ] pills and didn't die? Somewhere, probably about 40 Advil PM, and I survived. None [ __ ] idea, Why. So I begin.
to say: "Okay, I'm all I'm going for it anyway.
plan. I want die. I no longer I want to be here. I am not I want to live like this. I am not I want my life to be was like this". On that I didn't have the time.
friends, except those in Who did I buy?
drugs. I have actually there was no connection with family. People at work saw in unavailable to me person, because if I don't I used it at work.
was unavailable, as [ __ ]. Frankly speaking.
No one is with me.
wanted to talk. So in the big picture I was lonely. I was...I felt lonely, like never before.
So I begin.
to consider another plan and started googling ways, type of ways to die, you know?
I watched that show, It seems, "A Thousand" "ways to die" or something like that.
Yes, of course. So I like this: "Okay, I have "There's an extension cord there." IN I have a hanger that hang on the door for shirts and more.
Yes.
OK. I will do it.
All the things I have were, were lying in spare bedroom in the next room.
So, my family sat down to eat dinner. I I'm leaving my house.
rooms, I'm going to I'll take the spare one.
extension cord, I'll take that one a small hanger.
Now they are all looking at me: " What the hell?
What is he building?
Yes. Like, why is he... What the hell is he doing?
I was in a trance, man, in zombie mode. Can I was looking at eyes—there is no one there was at home.
One thing I learned under own time recovery: impossible deal with it alone, and not need. I know this from own experience. I was hospitalized treatment in centers Karen, and that changed the course of my life. Therefore, I am with I am proud to announce about your partnership with Karen. Almost 70 years they help people and families do not just to get rid of from addiction, and actually heal and change your life. They collaborate with all the main ones insurance companies, and it is possible hospitalization in day of application. So if you or someone from your loved ones suffers, not delay.
Call Karen at number 855-35213. It 855-35213. Help starts with the first step. I guess I just disconnected.
It was as if I wasn't there.
Yes.
So, I'm going to my room. I put mine...I had them old Apple headphones, those on the wire, not wireless. It was It's 2017, so I don't know, were there then wireless headphones. I didn't have them.
Yes. Yes.
It was around 7-8 pm.
I put in my headphones. I found one song Adele, which I listened to on repeat. I listened to this a song for two hours, this was the same song, from with which I associated myself, she touched me at this level, which I cannot explain what I felt...it was simply.
She was teasing you. It It felt like it was coming straight here.
Yes. For some reason, although I never heard before this song, until found her that day.
So, I made this the thing on the door, clothes hanger on the door.
Mmm.
I hung up.
electric cord. On I had headphones.
Well, I had headphones, and they were wrapped around my neck. IN I had mine in my pocket.
small iPod touch, I wrapped the cord around neck, leaned back and just seemed to fall.
Just like weight went out from under my feet. She disappeared. It seemed eternity, but, maybe it's just passed a few seconds while I hung on the door without balance. And at that moment, because of the way I wrapped a cord around my neck, my The headphones fell out. AND when my headphones fell out, something in me My brain clicked, and I damn desperately stood up, and the weight of my body torn apart electrical cord, and I fell to the floor. AND when I fell on the floor, my back hit the door.
Boom. My mother, my stepfather, my brother for They ate at the table. They heard this. My mother comes in. They are trying push the door, but I rely on them.
They don't know why.
cannot enter. So my stepfather, who larger in stature, as if pushed away me and the door aside. AND Here I am on the floor, I'm just lying down.
extension cord wrapped around the neck, and just tears, tears. Like, and I looked at mine mother. I'm like: "I damage. I'm sorry.
I need help. I no longer I know what to do.
like this: "I need help". And she looked at me.
My brother looked at me. My stepfather looked at me with with the expression: "What the hell is going on?"
"What's wrong with you?" I said, "I don't know. I I don't know." I said: " But I don't want to anymore.
live".
Oh my God.
So, sorry.
Sorry. Uh, yes.
Thank you for sharing.
hereby. hmm we are getting to I will become, when we become no matter, we don't we see values in life and existence and, uh, I appreciate that you became vulnerable and shared this, so that there are many people who going through this, and you know, you know that the craziest there are so many, percentage of people who unsuccessful, like in yours case this is a small percentage Yes to find out what percentage of people who have succeeded in this no longer here to talk about it.
No, but you are talking about it is now because there is people, and it's terrible, but there are people who potentially will do this is in the future.
Yes, one hundred percent.
That's why I'm here.
That's why you're here.
Yes.
With nine years sobriety.
Yes.
Although I shouldn't be.
And very quickly, this the perfect moment to remember what you have now there is a two-year-old baby. Yes.
You are engaged and Are you going to get married?
.
Yes, that's true.
Bro, you came in and... with a smile on your face from the moment I arrived here.
Yes. Yes.
And you told me, you know, you offered...I don't know, Can I say that?
through your company, but... You were offered various positions with moving around the country, to earn more money, in general, all opportunities, and you built it beautiful life.
Yes.
That's why we do what we do.
what are we doing here, in this podcasts so that people knew that anything was possible to be different. No, it's not.
necessarily. And you don't must choose that way. There are many ways that can be to choose. There are resources, if you think so, that you can't have them find. Now in Everyone has a smartphone. IN everyone has now laptop, tablet.
Literally everything that you need to google it: you can google it addiction, you can google suicide, anything, and it will lead you to the resource. Yes.
Then.
And I know that some people are so captivity of its own addictions, they are so stuck in life and, you know, in that they are used. It seems wrong.
so that they don't want to get help, they just don't know as. So every day.
People say, and this famous phrase among dependent, which one are you, You probably know: this is mine.
last time Oh my God.
Famous quote about dependence.
This is my last time.
That's all. This will be last.
That's all. This is mine...this is mine the last pill. It my last dose. What would it wasn't, you know, it was always the last time until next time.
Do you understand what I mean? AND then the next one will be last, Yes?
And for me that week, when I was just losing I was out of my mind.
, with suicidal in thoughts, you know, if in I had a gun, I wouldn't be here.
Yes.
Do you understand what I mean? For simply not.
I would use it, and That's all there is to it.
It's over. But, as I said, as I...you know, we talked before. I as if he felt that in that moment it was divine intervention, because I I listened to that song twice.
hours on repeat, and I was like hypnotized by her, and not even I remember step by step.
step by step, what I was doing. I was, as I said, hypnotized song, music, by their state of mind.
Yes. So when I was there, with a rope around his neck, leaning against the door, I I don't even remember.
these steps in your head. Everything I am I remember—this is a song, words.
That's why at that moment, when headphones dropped out due to weight everything that It happened, I feel like came out of the trance, as if he had woken up.
It took you out of of that state.
Yes. And I thought that I know how much everything is badly.
I know I'm in the [ __ ].
The situation and we'll talk a little later about why I was in such a in a difficult situation.
Um, were certain legal matters, in which I was involved in, some criminal things.
Um, and I was expecting that in my the door will break down damn FBI or police state. So there was also a lot of paranoia.
But I was just...here Where was my mind? I I thought that the easiest way get out of this situations— it's just disappearing. AND when those headphones dropped out and trance It's over, I'm like woke up and thought: "Okay, I need to apply for help and to deal with this [ __ ], because I have the big goal in this world".
Yes, there is something I have.
make. I accepted pills. I am not dead.
Tried to hang himself. I am not dead. Okay, this is it.
two attempts already.
Yes, maybe God has another, larger one plan for me. Therefore, come on let's do this, you know. Come on, come on.
to become sober.
No, we use drugs. We drink, to dull the pain from trauma, emotions, or anything else.
Usually there are some mental health problems health. You said, that was very tense because legal problems, who force someone use and, perhaps, even want, well, to commit suicide.
Yes. So were there any you are hidden mental health problems health, with which you also had a case? We we'll find out later about this, when already Let's be sober. Yes.
Were there any others?
things that happened in parallel?
Yes. So, as soon as I got to the center detoxification, I...well, I'll be back in a bit.
back. How did I get there?
for detoxification. That one nights, you know, mother found me on on the floor, or somewhere else.
That's her then.
I was scared. Started to call everyone [ __ ] center detoxification in within a 50 mile radius to arrange for me at least somewhere. I was lying on floor, I was completely not with you. Didn't know What am I doing and where?
I am. So this is she was calling everyone. My brother was sitting with me, made sure that I nothing more did. He was very frightened. I was afraid.
even leave me himself.
Eventually, the mother found institution called Butler, and all who are with Rhode Island, know Butler Hospital. It best medical center in state, definitely.
Level of care and treatment is out there competition. If you stay on treatment in Rod- Island, Butler—this what is needed. Yes. AND Butler saved me life. Everyone who asks where I was and what did, I answer direct: Butler saved me life. The doctors there, nurses, clinicians, psychiatrists—they saved my life.
So, the mother was able get me a job at 30 day hospital program that I was definitely needed. AND when are you there you get caught, you're like... Sorry, you seem you lose touch with all over the world. None phones, nothing. You just staying there, working on themselves, they give the medicine that I had needed, to get off drugs. But yes, I am spent 30 days there. AND while I was at Butler, I started...Before that moment at my age I never applied.
to a psychotherapist. IN I was a child.
trauma. What am I talking about?
I'm sure we still Let's talk when.
we will remember mine childhood. But I have there was an injury, and, you know, looking back, maybe I should it would be—or mine mothers—to contact to some specialist from mental health; Well, to a psychologist, or to someone you can talk to would be to talk about what I went through in childhood. But yes, I sat there for 30 days, with Monday to Friday. Twice a day at my place there were sessions with psychotherapist Well, twice a day, two-hour sessions, I I think it's just me and her.
, face to face. A third I was still in groups at the time.
, but it was twice on day, such a level I was in need of care.
needed mentally.
so that I can recover, you know, it was necessary, twice a day, two hours from Monday to Friday within 30 days that I was there. So as you can imagine, Mentally I was pretty broken.
Excuse my expression, but I was... I mean, we all such.
Yes. So... you are in good company, friend.
I thought so, you know.
So, uh, well, yeah. They they gave me diagnosis after the first week of talks with them when they did their own medical matters.
They diagnosed in I am bipolar.
type 1 disorder.
M-hm.
Er, borderline disorder personality—this is still one who, on their I had an opinion. And I I think they are.
decided because I am like that a person who can...me I can join anywhere.
whatever.
Yes.
I am a chameleon.
Similarly.
You can throw me in tribe in Africa, and I I will become a member of the tribe.
Throw me in the hall.
meetings with leaders, I will dress suit and I will to control this damn thing hall.
Of course.
I'm just that kind of guy.
And that's why I was able to to succeed at in my work, wherever I am was not. I was climbing.
career ladder.
Wherever it is was.
So they thought about borderline disorder, about your ability to be one person for one, then the other for others. So they have been thinking about for some time schizophrenia, because I heard voices.
M-hm. I think it has become It's really bad when I started eating answer. Apparently, that's when they said, "Oh, yes, maybe this schizophrenia". So, well yes, bipolar disorder and all that.
They set me up.
for the entire pharmacy pills while I was on detox.
Yes.
Uh, they started give me methadone, when I first arrived.
To wean you, to wean me.
But from methadone I it became...I never felt like this sick, neither before nor now.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
This crap just pisses me off.
killed. And I accepted It's only about three days old.
I hate methadone.
Oh, man. It was worst.
Oh, that was the worst.
Never in my life. If someone is looking at you have a choice between methadone or suboxone. I know that to get off suboxone— This is real hell, and I I'll tell you how I deal with this.
I managed, that was it.
not easy.
But accept suboxone. Methadone is, damn it, no kidding.
Under the supervision of a doctor.
Under the supervision of a doctor.
Don't try it yourself.
No. Talk to doctor.
Talk to your doctor.
Do it under under the supervision of a doctor.
Choose legal ones, choose the right ones ways.
Suboxone plan— this is a rapid decline doses.
Fast. Not Don't sit on this one.
nonsense.
No, I went through this.
Yes.
I have friends who sitting on this 10, 15 years.
No.
Like, Well, no.
Firstly, for me it is not sobriety.
No, I agree.
Because you're still on something.
You are sitting.
If you accept it and you have a plan on how to get off, doctor's appointment plan —this is sobriety.
Yes.
100%. But if you you are just abusing you continue to take, if you just you stay on it just for the sake of remain, just to be on it is not sobriety. And this also dangerous, because if you decide to jump off on one's own from this, Yes.
This is death.
Yes.
This is, like, terrible. Yes.
Do you understand what I mean?
So So they give you cocktail of drugs for mental health.
Yes.
And you come out of hospital.
Aha. While I was there, they were just watching, how I react, they They picked up my medicine.
all the time to find the right one a mixture that will help my brain to earn money as need.
Yes. Well, 30 days of that.
And while I was at detox, I was like zombie. Like, you know, as if no one was home no. I was not at all Come on, dude. The only one What I did was listened to music in headphones and painted.
I colored the whole thing, in damn, coloring.
The whole time I was there detox. I had my pencils. Were gel pens. That's all, What was I doing? Listened music, although his own I didn't have an iPod back then.
. I had a phone with all the music, but The phone was taken away.
So my mom gave me an iPod, which I bought her a pair of years ago.
AT.
So I had all my mother's music on my device, while I was in detox.
So I was kind of like... Well, I was born in the 80s.
So I'm not against music.
80s, but there was music of the 60s, 70s and, you know, damn Britney Spears, and all this nonsense, which I was forced to listen while I was there.
But hey, this distracted me brain, so I'm not very weighed.
But let's get back to this cocktail. So yes, they are tried a bunch various things. Um, when I went out, they finally invented, or what was considered good mixture medicine for bipolar disorder, schizophrenia medication.
Um, I had it then extraordinary anxiety, therefore they put me on hmm, something like that lorazepam. I used a bunch of different things, dude. I probably accepted from 8 to 10 tablets per day.
Go crazy.
Yes. Around 8–10, inclusive with the fact that they also they gave me two suboxone strips on the day I was at outpatient treatment.
8-milligram strips, that is 16 milligrams per day.
They gave me two strips per day.
What?
Yes. One morning, and another one somewhere in the middle day.
You seemed...you felt it first? Yes.
Yes. Then you...you You get used to it.
Probably the first few months I felt this, especially the first one in the morning. But because it's been a few months I don't care anyway.
did not work. Ahem, so yeah, the first few months after hospital, um, at that time I worked in non-profit organizations for adults with disability, and they had no idea what was going on It's happening to me. I just took vacation before went into detox. I took week off for work, simply because, who had accumulated vacation. I am nothing.
didn't tell them about it What's going on? I am not told them that I, you know, dependent. I didn't say.
I'm going on a detox. I just damn it disappeared 30 days. I had return to work in a week after the start detox, and probably they tried call me.
My mother turned off my phone at that time, because when she returned home, she took mine phone and looked through all my contacts. And at that time the only people in my phone had dealers or people I have bought pills, such intermediaries.
Well, my family, of course, but these were the only contacts I have had.
people from work, for example, my boss and a couple more of mine leaders. Therefore, she deleted all my contacts, well in general all. I have before near everyone I'm with had a case, was smiley face pills, I was a stupid teenager. But she deleted everything, and then just completely turned off my phone. put put it in a drawer or something like that. So my boss call me, write me emails. I then worked as a manager at home. I was in charge.
own house, group home. IN there were four of us customers and about 16 employees in subordination.
So for me it's just disappear, they don't care without saying. They panicked: "What the hell take away, "What's going on?" They have at that time mine contact number for emergency cases was number my ex girls. We a few more have gone months ago. I am so did not change the contact person. So they don't have was number two.
You called.
So they just are.
Without a clue what happened.
Now yours is involved.
ex-girlfriend AND here, she is not answering the phone. She doesn't care.
Billy disappeared.
Billy disappeared. That's all.
And that's besides my family, who knew where I was. No one, no one knew where I was was.
Yes.
No one.
So, I finally I'm coming out of detox.
I'm calling mine.
to the boss at the time, and He is yelling at me.
Where the hell are you?
was? At home, just chaos.
Yes, the house falling apart. None a manager who could would manage all of this.
The reports are not ready.
Banks. Where is it taking you?
Where have you been?
And I said, "Can I I'll come, well, let's talk, at least I will explain that happening?" Even don't try. You liberated. We sent to you last salary. Not I know if you got it.
, but it's all over.
Thanks, but no. OK, how can you imagine, I still quite vulnerable. I just after detox.
This is another blow, mentally: "Damn, now "I am unemployed."
although at that job I was doing what for me sooner or later should have been caught. I knew that sooner or later everything the secret will become manifest. I I was waiting for something to happen.
something will happen bad, and me too they will be released anyway, when they find out what I am and more several colleagues were engaged. So, by Honestly, I'm not very good at it.
calculated to return to that work in perspective.
But I didn't expect that I will be fired soon.
Yes. Do you understand what it's about?
I? I wanted to come to boss, sit down and talk to him: "Hey, that's what happened.
I will resign if you want. I am fine.
I understand. You know, I used at work". I I apologized because I felt sick from cancellations, and I didn't want to to show people in in this condition. So the last few months at that job, I'm actually not there.
was. I was terrible.
boss. I was terrible employee.
And I didn't expect that I will work there.
after leaving detox. Besides, this it wasn't the best a place for me mental health.
Yes, of course.
That's right.
So, God made for you what you had do it for yourself.
What I had necessary. Yes. IN in a general sense, I that's right I'm watching. Mind, so when this happened, I said to my mom, "Hey, Listen, I lost.
work".
Aha.
I'll take some.
time. Now I don't care.
I am undergoing outpatient treatment.
treatment.
Ugh.
Because I thought that in I have a job, I said to Butler, "Hey, I can walk on program only two days a week in the evenings, because I work "in the afternoon". Yes.
So when I released, I called back.
Butler.
Now you can walk.
for the whole program day.
That's right. I called his to the therapist. I said: " Hey, we were discussing my outpatient clinic program before I left. Everything has changed.
I will receive help with unemployment certain time. Can we enroll me in that one the program you recommended?" She advised me intensive course: with Monday to Friday, eight hours a day.
It was intense.
outpatient program.
Yes, I went through it too.
like this.
Yes. She said: " Okay, great. When are you "Can you start?" I replied: "Tomorrow."
Literally tomorrow.
Yes. Well, actually, yes.
started the next day.
She is everything organized. It was from Monday to Friday, from 8:00 am until 4:00 p.m., at Butler campus. It It was almost like school: you come in the morning, having breakfast, group class, after it individual therapy, and then— classes and various activities with groups.
This took all day.
This should have been six-week program. My insurance at that time covered exactly six weeks and I was still insured through work because they continued to pay I think it's three.
months after mine release.
Got it.
By medical indicators, yes.
So they said: " Okay, six weeks program, start here".
It was wonderful.
program, and I have a lot What did he take away from it? How am I?
I already said, Butler.
saved my life.
The people I see there met—others addicts, therapists— everyone was incredible.
That was exactly what I need it. I was among their own, among people who are first time I was understood.
I have never before talked about his addiction or about What am I going through?
psychologically, with someone who really I would understand, up to at this moment. So I find this incredible.
liked it. I was in program. I was there.
star.
I was there from the very beginning.
a.m. I was brewing.
coffee. I was arranging cakes, cupcakes and other miscellaneous things. I was as if president of this damn program. Yes, I was on the rise.
6 weeks turned into 12.
Somehow, at the end of the sixth Last week I met with your therapist, and she asked: "How are you?"
"How are you feeling?" And I am all not yet worked. I planned to take vacation, something for kind of creative breaks to just to put one's self in order mental health and to return to oneself, because through use I I didn't even know, Who am I? M-hm.
So I still need was to understand who I am as a person, as partner, like a son, like brother. So she said: "Okay, we we can continue program. Do you want more?
four weeks or so six?" I replied: " Let's go for another six.
I like it here.
I get a lot.
benefit. She said: "Okay, I'll write you down again.
"six weeks." Here I am already 12 weeks in program. Passing by this second course, six weeks. The same [ __ ]. Went there every day, doing his own thing. On I didn't have that time.
cars, because of my addiction priority was drugs.
Of course, just me and worried. I am not paid the bills. I did not serve his car. So she was killed.
Yes.
I don't...She literally stood on the lawn near home and just grew into the ground.
Yes.
So, there was no car.
And Butler was somewhere behind four or five miles from my house then. I I walked every day.
Oho.
Went there, went there home, well, I was looking for way, you know? It was before Uber, Lyft and similar became popular.
Yes.
Could it have been on on the bus, but I prefer walking. I am not against. So I walked.
back and forth, did everything to get there.
So, second, second term. It's 12 o'clock.
weeks, I meet with therapist. How is everything? AND I say that I still have it, still not good.
Do you understand what I mean? I I still don't know who I am.
such. I still have it.
from time to time thoughts arise about suicide. Like I... although I do everything work, and I pass steps, and I work for program, and every day here, talking to people, with you, but I still...I still lost. I still haven't I know who I am. I think I need more.
time. She says: I I won't even ask.
. We'll arrange something for you.
six weeks. I replied: okay. Good.
Let's do this. So I finally spent more six weeks on this program.
Total 18. Yes.
18 weeks on the program that originally calculated only for six.
You pass six. You free.
Then outpatient procedure, well, outpatient program. This is still a hospital.
Oh, not a hospital, this is intensive outpatient program (IOP).
Yes. This...yes.
So I served 18, 18 weeks, and finally, at the end 18 weeks, I already knew everyone who was on territory.
Yes.
I see gardeners. As How are you, Billy? How are you?
At that moment I everyone already knew. So I I thought: okay, I think I'm done.
Yes, I think that's all.
You switched to this one.
partial outpatient program, right?
Aha. So I gradually got out of it. Now I'm just passing by.
at this stage I just visiting therapy with your therapists, three times a week by hour on day.
Um, what about a couple?
weeks is decreasing up to two days, and then in a few weeks—to one.
Ahem.
Meanwhile, I still I take all the medications that I was assigned. And I I think that's partly it.
is the cause of thoughts that I had, because of the medication I'm on was. I probably put incorrect diagnosis, or something like that, because I did something dangerous. And I never to anyone I advise you to do this. I started on my own to stop taking mental health medication health without approval or doctor's advice.
I did it.
Yes.
No, not good.
Completely. Completely. Very, I really don't recommend it to anyone.
to do so.
We laugh because we can understand this.
That's why we laugh.
By the way, This is no joke.
This is not good.
A very serious matter. Not try this do. This is dangerous.
.
Dude, I'm sorry. I will give you continue. I almost went crazy, trying stop taking them.
Continue. So, that what did they give me from bipolar disorder, was because I had manic episodes in the past, that is, in I was maniacal when I'm literally two- I was out for three days.
reality and did crazy things that not at all inherent my character. When I started on my own.
abandon medicine, which I did, because they make me feel terrible was gaining weight. I am not slept through them. They caused me trembling. It was many reasons why I began gradually to give up on them.
Hmm, what in the end, how do I I already said it was wrong way to act. I went on a weekly basis drink after completely stopped taking all medications for mental health.
So, I was still taking suboxin, but was without mental health medication health. Doctors do not knew, therapists didn't knew. About a week I went to two or three therapy every day. I am without medicines. Damn, I'm not myself.
your. Like, I'm not at all unglued. I am making up.
stories in your head that I believe to be true, and I tell them to my to the therapist, and she looks at me like this: "We just talked a few days ago, and this is some kind of fateful story, which you haven't heard about before said."
Mhm.
What is happening? And I I say, "No, it's true."
is happening. Believe me". As if someone trying to break in to my house. As if I I see him outside the window.
As if I know what he is there. I don't sleep all night.
and just stare at windows. I'm watching too.
like a paranoid person.
Paranoid. Frantic paranoid because I am alone stopped taking medication, what me reassured, and now when I didn't drink them, it was full of [ __ ].
Paranoid, literally paranoid.
Yes.
So the doctors again They put me in hospital, because I am alone left them. I finally confessed to the therapist: "Hey, listen, Sorry, but I'm the one who made them.
left. I, I am more I can't accept them.
This is too much. Um, I'm in danger. Me evil. I need be here, otherwise I I'll hurt myself, but I don't want this.
do". So I am again lay down in Butler at 48 hours, just for mental health assessments health. Doctors began to put pressure on me, falling asleep questions out of a hundred different sides, Of course.
Why did you do this?
Why did you do that? What What's wrong with the medicine? I I say: "Listen, I understand what it is.
bipolar. She is in to my family from both sides sides. I know what this is, you know, genetic. I I understand that. And this it is logical that I bipolar. One happy moments, the next one is sad, well, constant fluctuations."
But, people, schizophrenia?
How is that? This is because I told you when was in a drug addiction psychosis, what did you hear, like your father speaks to me, and I answered him. AND it only lasted short period. You give me a diagnosis "damn schizophrenia".
I just talked to dad.
That's all. Like, you know, his urn stands on the corner of the shelf in my bedroom, and I I look at him and I'm talking to him.
Yes.
This is not schizophrenia. Well, maybe a little coo-coo, but don't bet on me diagnosis and stuff these crazy people medicine.
Mhm.
So they, well, took it off.
me from them. They seem to said: "Okay, you bipolar. It, clinically it is that, you know, we diagnose, and with to others... We're like, okay, with "You're fine."
Yes.
So they prescribed I need medicine.
bipolar disorder.
I took them for a while.
time. Um, did they help me?
Yes, but still mentally not so much.
Yes.
Do you understand what I mean? I, I had some time with They have problems. I accepted them, perhaps, a little less than two years.
Um, and after that, You know, I'm already on that one.
time is out programs. I go to therapy, but not anymore I attend group class or something like that.
I just somehow I am working on myself. I I'm working again. AND It's been two years already.
mine, well, mine sobriety. In two years I'm still on suboxone. I accept these medicines. Um, and finally I just feel: I I want to feel again.
yourself normally. And with I can't take these medications anymore.
and the superstar that was before.
I'm not like that anymore.
energetic as before. I'm not like that anymore, you know, a chameleon. I as if in zombie mode.
Yes. I feel like turtle, as if in shells, and only the head is peeking out outside.
I was at this point.
So, we agreed with my doctors stop taking these medication, and I want to start gradually abandon suboxone too. I I say: I want to That was the end of it.
Like, I want to tie the knot.
One can say thing very quickly?
Yes.
You, I praise you, because what did you just go through my first two years sobriety and, um... although not recommended to stop on your own taking medication.
Yes. No. In addition, the sincerity that you have was because I can't to list, how many times have I became sober and not was honest about the condition your mental health. I always manipulated something or, you know, I returned everything just like me to screw up the system so that could I use it?
to break down, or something.
I have always built schemes. Yes. When and The woman sat you down and said: "Okay, you just finished six weeks. Do you want "Yes?"
Do you want six more?
weeks? Yes.
Here's what's happening.
I don't feel well.
You said you had potentially were thoughts about suicide. Yes.
At one point, you were the best honest all this time.
We were just talking.
about this. People on suboxone likes him, they want to be on it forever.
Forever. Forever. AND the craziest thing is, what doctors allow it. Yes, the doctors will allow it 100%.
That's not what he's for.
was developed.
This is not this is not how it should be right use suboxone.
These doctors, who prescribe suboxone, almost new pill dealers.
Mhm.
Because earlier, in the days oxycodone, vicodin, Percocet, type they kept you on them forever because, you know, scary companies earn money, pharmacies earn, doctors earn. So they indifferently. Yes, they I don't care about you.
Or do they see in you like this unstable, very sensitive case. We we don't want to, damn it, to bother this person.
Let's just keep giving him suboxin. He Holds up well. He Holds up well. He Holds up well.
But you are not spiritually you achieve that the maximum at which capable if you accept suboxin daily to end of life One hundred percent.
And very important again emphasize, How honest are you?
was. And how much is it it took courage because you are leaving comfort zones, getting off suboxone.
You are so old.
used opiates, and I would said that two years— this is also a long term.
But you got to the point where it all ends past. You were honest.
with the doctors and said: "Listen, I need "get out of this."
And during these two I was also years old.
everything is enough unstable with suboxin. It was, probably five or six months when I moved from two strips for one, and then—oh, one The strip does not work. You have still these feelings cancellations. Let's give You are one and a half.
Or then: "Okay, this "doesn't help."
Let's do it again Let's return two. AND then: "Oh, you "feel good."
You want to quit because I like this: "I want to get off "from this [ __ ]." I am not I want to sit on it.
forever.
So after two or three months for two I'm back in the stripes.
to the doctor and ask: " Hey, can we do it again?
reduce the dose? Like, Is it possible to gradually abolish? Can return to one and a half or one?
So I worked with by their doctors during those two years, so that little by little to get off.
Yes.
Sometimes it didn't work.
, sometimes yes.
In life, things happened things when I two were needed, but then I felt so good that one was enough. So Those two years were very unstable in dosage plan and everything else. But finally, in the end those two years, I decided for myself. I like this: "I don't "I feel like myself." I not in himself.
I want with this to finish.
Yes.
I guess I didn't take it.
opiates.
I didn't use drugs.
. I didn't use cocaine.
or mushrooms. I tried, Damn, that's it, dude.
I'll be honest. I I tried everything.
I tried everything.
Except for crack.
Never tried crack.
Crack is stupid.
And I tried. It evil.
Yes. No, I heard good things.
reviews, but nothing like this.
No, that's not good.
But, uh yes, after those two years I accepted decision. I want, I I want to tie. What do we need?
need to do?
Let's put target. So after those I sat down with him for two years.
their doctors, therapists, and we established six-month period.
After six months I started with two plates per day.
By the end of these six I wanted months to quit completely.
So it was aggressive period refusals from 16 milligrams.
That was my goal.
But you did it.
That was my goal.
OK. I would like to so that you can tell me now us about the first day a sharp rejection of " "Suboxone." And I want to for you to explain, because this hot topic, and many who is faced with this.
Tell me about the first one.
a day without "Suboxone" and what was this detox like.
I did it the same way.
said—for six-month period. So, I started 6 months ago out of two records. After, it seems two I reduced the months dose of two to one and a half. After two months and a half, I switched to one record. And then in last month, it seems, somewhere the last two weeks, I accepted only half plates per day.
During the first two weeks, or rather those the last two weeks, I took half a record, that's four milligrams.
On the last day, when I had a record.
"Suboxone", I have was like this symbolic moment: me as if he sat down with himself by yourself and simply talked. I said to myself: "Okay, I watched everything YouTube video. I looked at the forums on Reddit. I was watching, you know, podcasts. I spent research. I received literature from their therapists.
I know what to expect. So I thought that nothing read or not reviewed will prepare you for the first four days after you You completely give up.
The first two days were just hell. Although I gradually decreased dose so that I don't have should have been serious symptoms abstinence, but complete rejection... The first day has passed.
normally. I took vacation at work.
At that moment I worked at Dollar Tree. So I told the boss that I it takes four days- five weekends. I have family problems arose affairs. And they gave me this time. On the first day I just stayed.
at home, knowing what wait. I understood that I won't feel very well.
good. That I don't care will not want to do. But physically I I felt fine.
Psychologically—too was ok. But on the second "My day started" break it, dude.
Literally the whole body itching. I am constantly itchy. I was throwing up.
in heat and cold, I was in in such a state that called the doctor, to your therapist. I called her. Said: "Hey, I need come. Do you have window today?
I need to talk". She asked: "Okay, how are you?"
How are you feeling?" I replied: "Me evil. Can I?
come?" She freed up an hour in the afternoon. I came, and just now crossed her threshold office, she immediately everything is clear my face. You are in in terrible condition. She asks: "Do you want "go back?"
No, I don't want to.
turn. I, damn it, I can handle this [ __ ]. I I will lock myself in my bedroom, wrap myself in blanket and I'll get through this.
I just didn't think so.
the next day will be so bad.
She was able to me calm down a little.
She gave me something.
I don't remember exactly what exactly. It seems Tramadol or something like that, from the pain that I felt. Some a weak opiate, something in of this kind. Definitely not.
I remember the name. But she calmed me down conversation. My therapist...I hope, my girlfriend is not to get angry because of What will I say? My The therapist was very attractive. She was a beautiful woman, and my doctor. She knew how to put me down opposite and appease. "Everything will be fine."
good. You won't die.
I promise." Because I told her: "I will die. If I to continue to feel this way, I'm going to die." And she: "No, You won't die. It normal feelings.
You are brave. I I am proud of you.
Do you want to go through this?
alone". Everything will be good. She even asked if I wanted to to go to the hospital, to pass this in clinics clinically.
So yes. So that I could be there safe environment on in case something happens will happen.
I said, "No, I want to be at home. Um, I I appreciate you being everything to me.
explained, but thank you."
I'm like: "I already better". I'm like: "I "I'm going home." So, I went home. Third the day was a little worse for the second. I still don't I know what it is, but You seem to be following.
for hours. I am constantly looked at the clock.
Yes.
As if counting down time when I can go to bed sleep and count more one day.
That was strange. Every 30 I looked at it for a few minutes.
clock and thought: "Oh "Damn, okay, it's 2:30 already."
8 more hours until bedtime. Okay, 3:30. 7 more hours until bedtime.
So I just sat in room, looked movies all day, drinking bottled water, washed the body, went to the toilet a lot. And, um, pain...in me there were still aches and pain and all that. Ahem, as if my knees hurt, back, all that. On the fourth day I started to feel okay, body, thoughts, I could be on something concentrate. Ahem, the fourth day was good for you.
The fourth day was good. Fourth day. I remembered because It was Friday.
The fourth day was my worst day.
Yes. The worst day for me it was the second one day. It was the worst day for me.
On the fourth day I felt a little better. I could normally function. I got up. In my the [ __ ] bedroom was mess. So I'm all cleaned. I, you know, helped mother with some things. So I did some little things around the house.
Restlessness, right?
Couldn't sit on it.
place. Yes.
Couldn't sit on it.
place. Had to do something do. I went out on street. I remember because in At that time I still had and the car, full junk. But I got out.
outside. I took it off.
all her wheels and started selling out in parts. So I took off all the tires, put them on Craigslist and started making small housework, and I didn't feel it coming.
nine o'clock in the evening. I like this: "Oh my god, I lived to see another one day. As if I lived to next day. AND then came the fifth day, and he was too a little strange, because in I was started again.
those thoughts appear.
That night, I remember, I dreamed drugs that are very often happens during sobriety, especially in the early stages.
You see or the past experience, or just a wish use it, or you are sitting in bed and get an injection, or sniffing dope—those dreams about drugs.
Aha.
So from the fourth night I woke up at five.
every 20 minutes, because it seemed like again I see a dream, and they were intense, bro.
As if You're lost, right?
Yes. In my head I It seems to have broken down, it it was, damn it, it was amazingly. I can't do this.
explain, but I was all in sweat, and I remember wiping nose and checked whether there's no powder there, well type This is just madness.
It was...Honestly, the next day, when I woke up, I called his to the therapist and said: " Hey, I think I "I broke down," and she like this: “What? Now 7 a.m. What are you talking about?
at all?" "Go lie down sleep".
Aha. I say, "I think "that I used again." I am not I know. I say, I feel.
, as if I used it, I...I have as if there was a feeling high, you understand, and she asks: "What happened? So I I explained to her that I I dreamed of four or five dreams where I am a boat with a bunch of people and I use it, then I in the club, then in the car, then here, then there, and in every dream I I'm sniffing dope or, you know, I swallow a pill.
She says: "This is called dreams about drugs. We are talked about it.
They will be for you.
dream. Everything will be fine.
good. How are you?
"How are you feeling?" "Well, shocked, but mostly "It's okay, you know."
Aha.
So yeah, that was the fifth one.
day, and after that I started trying return to normal life.
Aha.
You know, I tried.
to look for a better job, was looking for something to do, and, as I said, worked at Dollar then Tree, received the minimum salary. Worked only 20 hours per week. It was third shift, night shift, so I don't at all earned money. Yes.
As if nothing happened. My stepfather worked foreman at a factory in Potkety, for those who lives in Rhode Island.
He was a master. My brother and our common friend were in his brigade, and I literally came to him into the room and begged to take me on work. My father was a master- plumber. So this is in It's in my blood.
Plumbing, you know, as an engineering matter.
It's like what I had engage in.
But I begged him.
Literally from with tears in his eyes: " Dude, please "Hire me." And there, where this factory—and me I understand his point.
vision, not the best area. This is not the best.
part of Rhode Island.
There are lots of people there who are lying around, bowed down.
This is Potket, approximately.
10 minutes from Providence.
Of course.
It's very close, but very bad area. They believed me weak. They they said they didn't want to hire me in this area, because there is a risk to break down or again to take up the old. And I said: "Dude, listen. Me, damn it Take it, I tied it. I never again in life I will not take drugs.
Can I have a drink?
aspirin or motrin, but I gave up. This part of my life finished. She is in past. I left This is behind. Please, Give me a chance. Simply Give me a chance. That's all, "What am I asking for?"
So he reluctantly took me to work. Therefore, Wow.
Yes. Thank God.
OK. We immediately immersed in the topic use. What made you, well, what helped you become sober, and about the early years your sobriety.
I usually ask guests start with early childhood.
But your story was too good, to stop you and go back.
We could talk about this.
to remember.
So why don't we to do so? Let's Let's go back.
You mentioned that you were certain things, traumatic events in early childhood. I I assume that in adolescence also.
You want...So, you have there is a younger brother. You They said he was on eight years younger for you. You have a mother, father, stepfather.
Stepfather. How much do you need?
there were years when Did your father die?
I was 12. In two months before my 13th anniversary.
Of course.
Yes.
This should be very traumatic for 12- one-year-old child.
My father was alcoholic, very strongly. And in the end it is It killed him. He has had cirrhosis of the liver.
He died at the age of 44, which makes me to think about own mortality, because I'm 40, and all that's left four years before that the age at which he left.
But the days before his death—that's what I I consider it real.
the trauma of my youth.
He had cirrhosis.
He also had brain problems, which doctors never explained to the end no neither to me nor to my mother.
But last week his life was like in foggy, even for me. The last time I saw his father alive, when he was still walking, three days before He, according to my information, I went to the hospital myself.
I was with my cousins. We ran.
to the Dollar General store opposite the house my aunt, and my father lived about 10 minutes away from there. We came in.
buy candy, and I saw his father in pharmacy department, I approached him because at that time not seen and not heard about He's fine. It's over, probably three months or so four. I am not talked to his father and never met him. I I don't know what they were.
for him those months, because I couldn't talk to him at the end. When we approached him, I exclaimed: "Dad, Greetings!" He looked at me and I didn't recognize him. He looked at me like that, as if I asked: "Where are you was? I don't know anything about you.
I didn't hear. I thought you you will take me away, because At that time, my father took me to yourself weekend. They are with their mother.
They broke up a long time ago. So I always went to father for the weekend, and here we met him, I ran up to him.
I grabbed his leg.
I say, "Hello, Dad."
What? And he just looked, literally turned around, looked at me with this with an expression like: "I love you" "I know?" Turned around and went the other way. It was the last time, when I saw mine father. We were with him.
very close to that, how he got sick and died. Every weekend He was taking me away. We were engaged in all sorts of interesting things.
In fact, I spent Friday evenings always at the bar. He worked in a bar, so picked up on Friday me from my mother. We were walking.
straight to the bar, and I spent the whole day there evening and all day. IN Saturday the same. I spent the whole day there day and all night, just hanging around, playing billiards or something.
But you know, when he looked at me like that, and I saw this, and he didn't say a word, nothing at all said. He just looked at me with so confused appearance, turned around and went to the other side. And I am standing.
there with my two little cousins and even they shouted : "Uncle Willy, "Uncle Willy." He didn't even turn to us attention.
Turned around. He has There was something in his hands that he was going to buy.
He doesn't even paid for it. He just literally left the store, got into the truck and went away. When he I went out with my cousins.
ran after him, I shouted chasing him. He didn't even turn around.
Just sat down in truck and drove off.
I am 12 years old and I I think, "What the hell, I I don't understand at all.
what's going on."
Yes.
I don't understand at all, What is happening now? I perplexed. I am running.
back to the house aunts. I, of course, tears. I think: I just for the first time in three months saw father, and he even did not recognize me. Not didn't say a word to me.
Didn't even notice me. Didn't pay attention to my cousins. Just turned around and walked away. I left.
What the hell, is happening? And, as I said it was in about a week before we called, well, a message came from the hospital, that he himself turned there. Therefore, he himself came to reception department. And, yes, this history continues trauma. As I already said we were all in my grandmother's house.
Me, my mother, a few cousins, and here Aunt comes in.
My older sister Mother runs into the house confused. Willie died. Not my father.
I'm standing there. I know. I I know. She just runs away confused.
Willie died. He is in hospitals. He himself got there. Doctors they say that he, he dies. Him 20 left to live minutes. Like, with him It's all over. I will remind you.
, I'm 12. I [ __ ] don't I know. I am 12.
This is not enough.
I am 12. In short, my mother grabs aunt, literally throws it away to grandma's bedroom, slams the door, and I I hear a fight, screams.
Mother yells at aunt, aunt shouts at mother. Me and my mom we are standing in the room and we think: "What a piece of [ __ ] is happening? Where is mine?
dad? What's wrong? Have leaves the room.
It grabs me. Says:" Come on. You need to go to the hospital. I I say: "Okay. With dad Is everything okay? And she:" Let's go to the hospital."
Good. We are going, We are going to the hospital Rod- Island. In mine There was only one father.
sister, younger, but they did not communicate.
She no longer lived in this state. Both my grandparents by that time already died. My father never been married. They are from never been a mother married. He doesn't have were the closest relatives. It was just me.
I was his closest a living relative.
He and his sister don't have there was a relationship. Her It was a deep shame, What is happening to him? AND he didn't care what with her. So, let's go to hospital. Father always been strong physique. He had muscles. He was stocky guy.
A little bit of a belly, but muscular.
I weighed around 170-180.
pounds.
We arrive at hospital, we register. To us They say where he is.
We rise in ward. On the father's side, damn, all the tubes world. Kevin, he swelled to 250 pounds, all the liquid. He barely recognizable. I even didn't recognize him face, everything...Eyes, lips, his whole body retained water because The liver failed.
Kidneys failed.
So all the fluid in the body he kept to himself.
His legs were like that.
Everything was like this. He was literally on artificial intelligence apparatus breath. Not even could speak. Apparently, didn't even know that I there. He was sleeping. On that one the moment he was in drug-induced coma. I don't know how he does it.
did, but that day The father himself came to hospital. I don't know whether was he in such a condition, was it already swollen when driving.
I don't know how it is.
happened. I'm not there.
was. But all I I can say—this is what what I saw when we arrived at the hospital.
And as a 12-year-old boy, right in this one moment of your life I need a father. You it was necessary.
Yes.
You need someone, who will teach you to be husband. You know, everyone these little things. It's like what is possible to learn only from husband, from his Dad. That's why dad should be nearby. And this one of the reasons why I never wanted to have children, because I wouldn't want to, for my son to pass because of this, because of what I went through. So, we are in the hospital. IN At that time my mother started calling everyone, to call my house grandmothers. Everyone started to come together to hospitals. My aunts, cousins, grandmother, everyone from my mother's side. IN I'm not really there.
relatives on the father's side. So they are all in hospitals. Doctor asked my mother:" Who is his closest?
relative? You him next of kin? "— he asked his mother.
My parents never were married. So she looked at me and said: "Kim".
And I'm like, "Me? Tim? Him?"
sits next to Kim ". And now at the age of 12 The doctor is looking at me. He says: "Young man, I need to be with you.
to talk, and now only you can to make this decision."
Your father is suffering.
Your father will die.
But it's up to you.
, will he suffer further. We can, in in a certain sense, turn off the devices, disconnect it and allow him leave quietly, or we we can leave it connected while it is decides to fight, and eventually he will die. What do you want to do?
at 12? I have to make a decision—in in my eyes, kill your father or allow him to suffer from that so many beds, How long will this last?
So I was like numb at that moment. I am only 12 years old, I am trying this.
to comprehend. At 12 years old I I should have, damn it, to play in the mud, to chase the ball, not to accept such decision at 12 years old. So My mother took me away.
aside, and also mine aunt, younger sister the mother I was with closer, Aunt Patty, they got me, uh, to the room for visitors, and...They talked to me, they told me:" Listen. "They explained that what is happening to me father, from his liver and addiction, what am I talking about, tin, didn't have any idea. I knew that My father drank because I literally spent Fridays and Saturdays in bar. That's it. But I don't understood what it is cirrhosis. I am not understood how it works brain, and I didn't know. All What I saw is what my father became similar to a whale. He was 35 kilograms heavier than before. AND he looked like this, that it is not even recognized.
So they said, "No."
Let him suffer.
You have to go there and tell the doctor turn off the devices, and you have to be the one who "it will do." And I said: "Why don't you Can you? I don't want to to do this. I am not I want to kill myself.
father. Why do I have make this decision?
And what about yours?
next of kin?
So I went out, looked at the doctor and said: "Turn off devices, but give "I have a few minutes."
I went in, sat with father for 5-10 minutes, said I love him, talked to him.
Sorry.
It's okay, man.
But, yes. I just told him everything that wanted, they turned it off devices, and it seems at 00:08 he died.
I'm very sorry.
I am grateful.
This should be it.
illegal for someone to under 18 years old accepted such a cursed decision.
You think so, right?
truth? You think so.
And that was back in 1998.
So even then everyone It was a no-brainer.
Yes.
They didn't care. They are going to mutilate a child for everything to injure a child all life.
Is a 12-year-old child should take decision to kill oneself father or sit and to watch him suffering?
Truth?
If I were an adult a person like my mother, and They are not with their father.
were close. On that one time they are just...mine mother was with father my brother. She is from my father barely talked. Although in I was one of them. So, they have there was a relationship, some kind their connection. Why she could not make this decision?
Or at least to say these words, they forced me, they made me do this make, that I have been going through for years therapy, trying to recover from this and understand all this 12- year-old mind. Like, I killed my father.
Even now this thought in my head. I killed his father. But yes, he was sick. Yes, he is dying, but who knows?
I'm constantly talking about this.
I think. Who knows? Maybe it was not necessary turn off the devices.
Maybe he somehow miraculously would return. Who knows?
But in my head, it's I told him turn off the device.
You are 12 years old. Thy the brain is not yet complete developed, completely.
And this is madness, because now, as adults, sitting here, you are the one That's how you remember it. AND at this very stage development was yours brain at that time.
Yes. So, it's like I'm me I'm just saying from you.
You didn't kill your own.
father, but No, I know. I know that you are in your head killed his father.
Yes.
And that's too much.
for a 12 year old child, to work this out.
Yes, you can do it to work out. How are you?
as I said, I I went to for years.
therapy because of this, and anyway I still don't worked it out like this it was necessary.
It seems to me, part of the problem were the words of the doctors.
I think they could to say it differently.
I think they could to say everything differently. If they explained I'm feeling better, maybe I could understand this a little better. But the way they they said this and how they They came to me, was absolutely right idiotic.
Absolutely. Well, no.
you can go up to 12- one-year-old child and literally in a couple sentences to say: "Your The father is suffering. He will die. That's what they are I was told. He will die. Whether now or tomorrow, he will die. He suffers. And or you you turn off the device, turn off the machines and you let him go in peace, or leave it on devices suffer another 24, 48 hours. Solve you. And the doctor left.
away. We tried sue the hospital, but nothing comes of it It worked. But even everyone in my family who I was there, they said: how is it?
they can, as they could they do that?
This is just zero.
compassion. Nothing no.
You are looking at a little boy, who at that time was 12 years old. I literally looked like seven. I am not was never was high, but then it was even lower. can you to imagine make me to accept this decision. It's simple.
Yes. It is always with me.
, and I think part of this forever will stay with me.
Yes.
Ahem even now, especially now when I am a father myself, and I never wanted to to have children I was with many girls throughout his life, and never saw myself with children with none of them, I just never I thought it was for me.
. And partly it's because what I experienced with by his father. Me was 12. I lost, well You know, I lost.
father in the most important period life when he was I need it.
And I have to give due to his mother, because my brother is finally lost his father in two or three years after I got mine, the same. My brother lost his father because overdose drugs, another terrible one case, another one terrible story and more one injury. So we are with We share this with our brothers, you know, the connection through injury.
But my mother passed because of all this. She worked for three works. She did everything I had to do, to be close to me and my brother and provide for us all necessary. You know, clothes, food on the table, a roof over your head. She was real fighter, and I always will be love her for it. Despite everything, she did that, what was must for our sake.
She is the strongest.
the woman I once... ever met.
Although she had her own problems, you know, with health, mental health and dependencies.
Both of her parents were dependent, so she I had to deal with this back in childhood. In mine Mom was terrible, hard life, but Yes, she was next to me and my brother when we she was needed.
Yes.
And she was ours.
father, even when shouldn't have been or not I knew what it was like. She did everything she could.
Yes.
And she did everything she could it was within her power.
And given where I am now in life, I would said that she managed well enough not bad.
Yes.
And for my brother too.
How are you?
brother?
Well, my brother and I now, I didn't speak with him a little more year.
We have never been very close, although lived for many years in one house.
But, you know, the difference is at the age of 8 years. When I was 18, he was 10. So I lived my life life, and he was still child. Therefore we have never been real close ones.
But, as far as I hear, He is fine. He has a job. He has A daughter was born. em, a year before in I have a son, or a year and a half before since he was born Liam. But he, you know, as far as I heard, in He is doing great.
You know, I would really like to, you know, sit down sometime with him and try to fix our relationships, because Life is short.
Life is short.
What I understood, especially about addiction—I have it there were friends who died from overdose. I have there were friends who They committed suicide.
I know that in life Anything happens, and it too short to to hold a grudge, isn't that right? So I would wanted to finally sit down with him, discuss everything and at least somehow to establish relationships.
My son, this is his.
Uncle, you understand, What am I talking about? And mine niece—I am her uncle, and I almost didn't I know my niece, and he hardly knows my son.
And I don't want us to be like this.
grew. You see, about What am I? So Yes.
Can you tell us, give me a little Let's hurry up. You talked about the incident, which happened right away before you became sober. T when, um, you tried to shorten one's life.
T you said you had there were problems, and, maybe he was preparing arrest or something like that kind.
Yes.
Now I assume that this was due to what you were doing at work.
Right.
Can you tell us?
this whole story from beginning? How are you doing?
got involved, what are you did, and what was the finale.
Well, yes. Now, you know, It's been almost 10 years.
years. Um, all of this is already in past. Legally Everything is already settled.
So I can talk about it.
tell me now. AND, Um, this is madness, just a note: I I tell my story.
history today, and people will be it listen. My family will listen to it. My friends will be this listen. Which never didn't hear this part my story or never heard of her fully. They are not They don't know [ __ ].
They only know a little.
This part of the story no one really knows, except my mother and my girlfriend.
Therefore, bride, bride, I just saved you.
from the beaten.
I just saved you.
from the beaten.
A lot has already passed.
time, dude. THERE ARE Hey, bride, he very high opinion about you. We just talked about it before beginning of the interview.
So, beautiful woman, wonderful mom. I love her.
to madness.
Saved you again.
No, I'm kidding.
Come on, come on.
So, um, how's everything?
started. I then worked in non-profit organization and wanted to leave from there. I managed his own program. Hmm, occupied quite a high position in the hierarchy of this companies. So a few my friends from this agencies were moving into another one who tried to assemble the best staff managers and all that. By that time I already managed to make myself name in this field in Rhode Island. Me people knew. They, you know, you knew that I a great manager, had good skills for everyone levels. So, when this another company hired my two friends, they said: "Hey, we heard about Billy Rich. You can contact him and to find out if he wants to "Will he come to us?"
They were, in fact, competitors companies where I worked, but they offered more money.
Hmm, I always wanted to to manage one's own program as its own house at that time. I hosted the daytime program, but wanted a stable one home, your staff, their customers. It was what I I wanted to then. More money, of course, salary. Um, so director from there called me.
We are fine for two hours.
talked, it was interview about mine goals, plans for home and what I I want to achieve. They hired me right away and said: "Let's go process design". On that one I was still enjoying the time.
Hmm, so I thought: " "Okay, great."
A girl who helped me get a job there, Her name was Carol. It's her.
told them: "Yes, he may be interested.
Call him."
So after talking to I am this director.
called back Carol and said, "Hey, I have a problem.
She asks: "What happened? And I am like this... At that time, Carol and her the guy was one of my main ones suppliers tablets. I came.
to them every day and bought Percocet 30.
They were mine.
main suppliers in the period when I was on pills.
If I couldn't get it drugs, I went to them, and they got I need pills. So I I say: "I have problems. And she: "What happened? Everything is gone.
not so. Like this, Dude? I'm like, "Oh no."
I got a job.
My job. Tomorrow I'm going to talk to Riley.
"Like, we're all good."
. She asks: "What is it?"
problem?" I say: "I I won't go to hell.
drug test". AND she: "Wait, what are you "What do you mean?" I said: "He wants to I will come tomorrow.
test". And she: "Okay, I will throw it to you.
link to address store. Go there, buy this drink, buy it two, drink them all take it out, go tomorrow and "Take the test." I do, as she said.
Thanks to God please I'm buying this drink, wash it all away, well, I drink it. That one I peed 50 times a night.
Cleansed the body, left the next day, Well, I passed that test.
I'm sitting there. It shakes me.
It's been 24 hours. I'm like: " Devil. “Okay. Good.
"Everything is fine." So In the end they gave me They are calling. They say: " Hey, everything is ready. We received yours information about no criminal record. Um, yours.
drug test clean". I'm like, "Oh.
Yes, damn it. Good, cool. They drove work". I was so excited.
But at that time I was still used. Like, but when I was using, I was just star.
Mhm.
I was real.
star.
Do you understand what I mean?
So, I'm starting this work. And now, a little let's fast forward, Everything is going well. I have There is a house. I am in charge.
program. Everything is going well.
perfectly. Now directors of these houses are provided to us access to bank accounts all customers. Like, we are the main ones there everything. We we control money, all the money. Being directors of houses, for whose position I was appointed hired, Carol was one more, well, er, one more one director. Its the guy was another one director. I have there were a few more friends with whom I worked before, which were also directors. They almost lured the best employees from my another agency to open this agency.
So, we are essentially knew each other. We everyone managed these houses. We were so young. We had, you know, somewhere under 20, well, about 30 years. Then one of my friends was addicted. I, you know, used to drink together with him on the weekend. We spent time together.
I went to him.
home. He came.
to me. He led another program, you know, right on that one the same streets, where the house he managed I. And somehow he came to me, and then to us paid once in two weeks, and I was getting only about 750 dollars every two weeks, which is the big picture nothing. It's nothing for two weeks, compared to with what I have now. It It's just funny when I remember.
And I was in a vice addictions, spending 200–300 dollars per day.
Dude, at the end I was completely without money.
Yes. Yes. you need more money.
I got paid on Thursday.
. Until Saturday or Sunday I have nothing.
remained. And me too had to wait longer a week and a half to to get again salary.
So I worked out.
various matters: sold things, stole from parents, took in one, took in another, did everything he could to to get money.
In short, I survived as could. So this guy came up to me and says, "Hey, I have idea". I replied: " Good". We were sitting in him, played Xbox, sniffed all sorts of abominations, swallowed pills. We were completely shattered.
He asks: "You have access to accounts, Yes?" He says: "Because I know, "What is there, because I have it too."
And on these accounts in any moment could be over 300, 400, 500 thousand dollars, because this is the annual budget, which the state allocates on customers. And still alone the house gets annual budget from state. So in any What time is it?
accounts could be 500 thousand, and sometimes more, depending on the size of the house, number of customers or something else, and we all of this was managed.
Leadership checked these bills only if was an auditor audit. And the audit was carried out if accounting noticed some inconsistencies or suspicious things, then they started to understand everything.
But if that's not the case it was, they didn't care.
Manage the house. Here you have money.
Use this as you consider necessary.
To clients, you know, need clothes. Them need food. Them need this. Them need that. House need vinyl siding. House plumbing is needed.
We controlled everything.
this nonsense. So they especially not checked. And he like this: "I'm going to do this verify". My friend says: "I "I'll go." We usually we work with three banks, I won't to name which ones, because I don't I want, well, that's... Mhm.
It's just three banks.
Let's say this.
The next day he says he will go and will try to withdraw a thousand.
When we came to bank, we filmed money. Every time, when we did it, we wrote on the form, on what are they, so that we have was in the archives on audit case. They could check and see. 1000 dollars was filmed for this. He went and did it, withdrew $1,000. Not I know he is there.
wrote as a reason, whatever.
The next day he came back and did the same. I told him, they say, I, I don't I trust this. I say, it looks like wrong. And he like this: "Dude, this "It doesn't matter." State this provides. There more than enough.
They never will notice that they are not there.
We don't steal 100 chi 200 thousand.
Well, okay. He says, "Dude, you have dope?" I replied: " No". He: “And the pills?
» I said, "No." He like this: "Well, I have, because I just took off a thousand from that account ". I said, “Okay.
Good. Damn it. Come on.
"Let's do it." After how he did it two or three times, I went to work. Took your folder. Went to the bank didn't even withdraw a thousand. I took it off.
I think it's around 200 dollars for the first time.
Of course.
Took these 200.
Bank The employee approached.
to me. Hey, Billy, what's up?
you need today? I replied: "Uh, 200 for a couch."
Good. Took cash, gave it to me. I wrote "sofa", entered this, came out of the building, I call the dealer: " "Hello, friend."
Sofa.
Sofa for 200 dollars, dude. so that, like, to justify that [ __ ], that I wrote in some of these reports.
I understand. Everything is fine.
Everything is fine. Yobana, yes, it was so you succeeded crank it out with 200 in dollars. Sorry.
So, yes. I'm leaving.
buildings, I call, I'm calling my boyfriend.
I say, "Hey, bring it."
I have four packages.
work". Meet with me at work. I gave him the address dormitory. Like, meet me here, well, somehow like that.
Hours pass. He arrives, we change.
Everything is fine. I waited.
a week, because I thought: although I got what no one, nothing didn't notice. I was good. I thought, "I I do this because if I will not accept these.
drugs, I can't work". So I do it justified to himself in my head, even though it sounds like crap, but I am like that.
justified.
Ugh.
A week passes, I have there were meetings with people, with the boss, with financial director. No one says nothing. Okay.
It's over. Time passes, I'm taking 500 off again.
I'm calling the dealer, that's it new. Now I stretched it a bit longer, because he knew that I will only do this once.
per week and I will withdraw a certain amount.
I would write it like this: "Yes, I need new stove. To us need a new one refrigerator. To us "I need this, that."
Note, I, of course, I didn't buy anything because spent money on dope, pills, or something there is more. So no There is no refrigerator.
No damn thing a couch from Craigslist too no. Like, just like you Did he justify it? So weekly, every On Fridays I went to the bank, withdrew money, wrote reasons...I won't tell sadness, because it is crazy, but as a result I paid for it compensation, and I still I will tell you about this. And so, it comes to this moment. It was, probably months later seven or eight before I started living sober, before I decided to leave. So, this is there were probably seven or eight months.
Wait, let me put it.
I have a question for you. You are not Do you want to name the amount?
It was less or over 50? My God.
More.
More than 50.
A little more. Yes.
OK.
Good. This, this is a no brainer money, dude.
Yes.
Got it. Six, seven months before your date sobriety. So, that's all.
was starting to shrink around you.
Yes. And keep in mind, All this time I was like a fool addict, raised from mind with anxiety. I I panicked, bro.
I guess I panicked.
every night, looking at windows. I was waiting for white fever. I have reached that, based on bank, I said to myself: I I'll sit in anyway.
prison. So to hell all. They me will be caught. I will sit in prison. What is another 500?
bucks? I will sit in prison. They me will be caught. I am not. They not stupid. Eventually, they guess. I knew that I will be caught. It's not in this. So, yes I am justified it under end. Like, who cares?
difference? I started to write nonsense, like [ __ ] frisbees.
Guys need Frisbee. Uh, this the guy needs jeans, and you know, that's why need a bunch a [ __ ] tomato soup. I wrote nonsense, because I...You became reckless.
Unwise. 100% reckless. And that, that they are not guessed then—this just not fits in mine head. AND the craziest part of this story in what I thought, as if they only did it me and my friend.
It turned out that after that, as I finally, you know, paid for his sins, they collected a bigger deal. Us there were 12 people in this companies, who is it did. Some—in much larger on a larger scale than me. So I thought it was just me and my friend did these are such small ones amounts compared to what others did. But there were people who were taken out in 10 thousand, 15 thousand each at a time at a time. For example, one guy took money to build garage near of your house. AND no one in finance department did not notice this until the very end when I got a puncture.
So because of mine disappearance if remember if we Let's remember how I disappeared, someone had to take that one house for yourself, while I was not there. So far I was not there, my the boss at the time temporarily took house under one's own control while they they won't find out what, in Damn it, with me.
happens, or not will find someone another. When he took self-control, the first thing he did— checked the finances and looked at what was there account. On this the account was maybe 1500 dollars. And we are just, we only in which one? We are in July. June. We are in June.
Yes. You don't even I would be happy to have a slipper.
year. Note that on June is on the bill only 1500 left dollars for the whole year.
I am in any It would be a joke, because How the hell am I?
I will live from June to December for 1500 bucks, having a house, food expenses and repair? So, the truth surfaced. This happened.
after I returned home.
Note, I disappeared when went to detox for that month. When I returned, it seems, in about two weeks after I came from detox, in There was a knock on my door.
two detectives. AND Kevin, I'll tell you, I never in my life felt like this relief. While I I was in detox, I didn't told this to his to the therapist. I didn't say.
clinicians, their doctors, groups support. Even mine The damn mother didn't know.
Nobody knew about it.
what I did at work.
No one. No one, except for those who were on work. Appearing two detectives. Have asks: "How can I help?" They: " "Is William home?"
Detective badges on them. She: "My son William? "Yes, he is in to your room. I "I'll call him now."
I heard the sirens approaching down the street. I knew they were They came for me. I already started to go out. IN my old apartment was so-so hallway. There were like two doors.
Alone to enter corridor, and others—to to enter the house. Mother and The cops were there.
hallways. I went out.
from your room.
I say: "Mom, go sit down."
. I'll figure it out myself. All good". They ask: "Are you William?" Me: "Yes, It's me. Come on, "Sit down, gentlemen."
They say, "Well, you Do you know why we are here?
Yes?" I say, "I know."
They say, "Well, he "Now everything will be easier."
I'm sitting at the kitchen table.
at the table, me and these two detectives, and I just, tin, cracked. I am in confessed everything. Without lawyer, who is now looking back, was probably bad solution, but that's exactly it it helped me, and I I'll explain why. Before this I have never in my life had problems with by law. I even no penalty for excess speed not received.
He was only in handcuffs.
once, when I was older school. We are with one other person.
a guy got into a fight the assembly hall, and I accidentally hit teacher. Teacher tried it to hold, that crouched down and I hit teacher in the face.
Both of us then arrested. You had no criminal record, anyway. You didn't have criminal records. None.
Of course. I was like ghost.
So I never had problems. Sat down with these two detectives, and this was the first thing that they started. They They said, "Your the best option— tell us everything.
Don't hide anything, because the judge, you know, with considering that you did and why, maybe to treat you indulgently. That's me.
sat there, laid out I dig everything: how did I start, why did I do that, that the fact that I just completed the 30-day program stationary treatment. Um, now just started outpatient program. I guess I'm still walking.
there every day. I do steps to become sober. I already sober, well, 30 days and fortnight. Like, I am here. I guess I'm doing something like What should I do?
The reason why I do this did—receive money for drugs, who could no longer bear to allow It was not in order to buy own a house or car. It was literally because I was a drug addict, a hardcore drug addict with a habit of 200–300 dollars per day, badge. How could I, how could I this will provide for 750 dollars twice weeks? Impossible, truth?
So I told the cops all. Notice, I'm crying.
. Like, I'm scared.
I don't want to sit down.
prison.
Of course.
What do you think, how would I Did you feel like you were in prison?
Well, because. You see, What am I talking about? Therefore, told the cops everything.
Without a lawyer nearby.
The cops tell me: " Okay, you know, we we appreciate your honesty, which throughout my entire life, well, travel to sobriety. I am not always been honest with someone. That's what I am opened in sobriety —this is honesty, because when I was a drug addict, I was a complete scumbag.
I could lie to anyone.
whom. Like, I made up stories.
I lied to to get what I want necessary. I never was honest. But how I just started living.
soberly, I thought: " This will be my new personality".
Do you like this or no, I'll be honest with you you.
Sometimes I am brutally honest.
So, I told detectives next day.
Um, they arrested Are you there?
No.
They didn't do it.
.
They didn't arrest.
me. No. They said me, that since I was so honest with them, did not send them under three damn things and didn't say that I will come tomorrow with lawyer. You literally sat down with us, talked without lawyer, and all that was recorded. They have there was a dictaphone. They recorded the entire conversation.
They said that tomorrow, if you want, you can take lawyer and come to withdrawal section fingerprints and another, for design. So I said: okay, I I will come tomorrow morning, first of all, and if If you want, I'll give up. Here then I thought, "Okay, I will 100% get to prisons".
Tomorrow morning, because detectives are not They arrested me.
Then I got full interrogation with with passion from his mother. What the hell are you?
did you do it?
My brother? What? Why?
Why at our house?
detectives? What?
How much money do you have?
stole? Like, and I had to tell them: listen, you don't know everything the depths of my addiction. My mother I thought I was just I take pills. Here and that's it.
Although, keep in mind, my family was mine the biggest...I love them unconscious, but they were my main henchmen throughout the 10 years my addiction. IN my mother multiple sclerosis.
She received painkillers, and when I was going to pick her up.
recipe, she was throwing I'll give you 10 pieces just for that I took it away.
My stepfather at the time also received pills. He threw them to him. My brother's there were friends who traded. My brother got them for me.
My aunts also gave them to me.
Type, main henchmen. So, I I love them without knowing and without I blame them for my addiction. It was me, my [ __ ].
But, but you know, you say about what they thought as if they know that I did, and they, damn it, didn't have no idea.
And everything was much worse than this.
Much worse.
Much worse than they could afford imagine.
Yes. Then I somehow confessed to his mother that used.
Mhm.
And she thought that was it just pills time from time to time.
Oh, but at that moment you were already "clean".
So you're like, "Well, yeah."
its. I'll just let you.
It has already happened.
This...yes, this is... I am clean now. I I am going through the program. I passed, you know, detox. Everything is with me.
good. I am now sober.
Here's what happened.
and that's why it happened.
And if I, you know, if I could stop by after receiving this work, this [ __ ] would never have happened. « But... Wait, you gave up yourself.
Did you hire a lawyer?
just went there...well, without anything?
No, without a lawyer.
My mother and I next day. The next morning.
You're tough, man.
Dude, at 8 am we got into the car, went to police officer Smithfield station.
They arrived there, went in.
, told them, "Hey, I William Rich. I am here to to surrender." And they... they were waiting for me.
They took me to the back room, removed fingerprints, did all this, you know, all checks that do during design. Yes.
They planted again me to the room for interrogations because they wanted record it on video.
So for the second time I I had to tell the whole story and reasons. So I spent there somewhere, you know, an hour- one and a half, two hours, somehow like that. I met with several various detectives and all that. AND In the end I am like: " "Okay." I did like this. I asked: "You Guys, pick me up.
now?" Like: “Oh, no.
Here is your court date.
Your presentation prosecution".
I looked at my mother.
I'm like, "Then I can "to go?" I didn't expect it.
I'm leaving.
Yes, of course.
I was like...I was looking at mother: "I can...I can "to go?" Really? They like this: "Yes, here is the date your meeting. Not "You're late." I said: "Can I ask you a question?"
—detective, to the chief detective, his name was Mike.
Great guy. Very helped."
I asked, "Why don't you "arresting?" I like this: "Because..." And they they said that. They said, "Billy, you "just the tip of a spear." I like this: "What?" He says: "You are just the tip of the spear. This spear is much longer than you even imagine, from what is happening in this agency." I am like this: " Okay, bye.
"See you guys."
So I just grabbed his things, sat down in truck, sitting in the car and simply, Damn, I was breathing, like... So, okay. So, you you are going to the presentation prosecution.
Yes.
What is happening under presentation time prosecution? Therefore, you are standing before judge.
AT, I assume that you pleaded guilty.
So at that moment in I had no money. I aground.
Yes.
You know, I don't have any.
money to hire private lawyer.
Yes.
But even if there were, no one in my family would not pay for a lawyer for me. Not because I [ __ ] addict.
You took the state defender?
I had to take public defender.
Yes. OK.
My first...I changed four for this whole process.
OK. My first public defender, some dude, typical public defender, looked like something from a TV show, came in, disheveled, you know, in [ __ ] fake costume.
Yes. One hundred percent Salt.
He's like, "Call me."
"Rudy." He is like this: " "Okay, Rudy, sit down." I like this: "I am William." He like this: “Hell, sure.
You are right. Good, "William, sit down." Like, The guy doesn't even know.
my [ __ ] name. I am in ass. I'm done. I disappeared. They will give me 50 years. It was my move.
thoughts. I'm done.
They will give it forever. So my first state the defender says...this was to be presented prosecution. He says, "Okay, here's what they offer.
They want to give 10 years, 5 years probation, 5 years test deadline, and you have to pay compensation." I am like this : "What?" He says, "Yes."
. He's like, "Oh, wait.
No, I'm still watching.
"Rudy's case." I am like this: "Dude, you want lead me to, [ __ ] heart attack. What are the real numbers? He says, "Oh, oh, I'm still waiting.
I'll get it from the judge."
OK. Like, good. After I...I sat with this.
the guy for five minutes.
I went to the office.
public defender at the court and asked another lawyer.
Yes.
I said: This guy me substitute.
I need someone.
another. Well, please.
I say I understand.
Competence. Yes.
Yes.
In the end, I got the second. Approximately that exactly. I was just name on the list.
So finally I got there.
to his last lawyer. Her name was Sarah. She really is looked indifferent. She genuinely cared about my interests. I met her, that was the first time with any by any of the defenders. We sat with her a few hours in day off. I came.
to her office and told everything as it is.
Keep in mind, the amount, which, according to them words, I stole, was another. It was much less than what I have accused.
Of course? When I worked in this house, I spent this money for the needs of the boys, I I didn't just steal them, I used them on other matters.
So when buying food, clothes or paying for repairs, I collected checks—I have there was a whole stack checks for real money, here it is thickness.
Yes.
So my mistake—and I admitted it—was in because I gave all these checks to the lawyer and said, "Look, the amount they called, for 30,000 bigger.
Good.
And I have the checks to do this.
prove. The night before I will meet her.
sat behind his at the table for five hours, reviewing each check and everything counting. And I withdrew the total amount.
That's how much, for in their words, I stole But how much am I actually stole. IN I have checks so that prove. So, I came to the meeting, sat down and gave her the checks.
Next week in I had a meeting.
court. We went with her.
to court. I am standing.
before a judge, and, You know, please stand up.
We stood up together with by her. The judge announces the amount that, according to their in words, I took, and, as I said, no I will call the number.
She was at 30,000 greater than that which was really.
And I, as I said, had all checks. She is so did not process these checks.
I gave her everything.
evidence. Only the devil knows what's wrong with them happened. But she is so and didn't fix this error. So on me hanged almost 30,000 more.
Well, it became yours.
punishment.
This was mine.
punishment. I said to myself: this is my karma.
Yes.
OK. I, I, I accepted blow to oneself. Let there be what, but I got up, and by that time in They were one thing. I almost certain that it still exists—it is called "court in "drugs cases."
Ugh.
This is when the judges are considering the case, if you are on drugs, and you took some steps. The court did not have to to force you to be treated. The courts do not it was necessary to force you to go to rehabilitation center if you are alone took steps, you know, recovered, became healthy, quit drugs, and you are already sober this moment.
I, I'm fine. This, this, apparently, a year or so ago after I already became sober, because it took so long.
Yes.
To undergo the procedure, to reach the presentation accusation, to final court hearing for sentencing.
So, as I said, It's probably been a year, a year and a half after of that fact.
So now I'm okay.
I am one and a half years old.
sober. I passed.
through detoxification. I still visiting intensive outpatient program. I have records from all this evidence.
I have a recommendation.
from my therapist, where it says that I I'm doing great. I did everything right.
I confessed.
detectives without presence of a lawyer, I answered for my behavior. I took myself in hands and answered for your actions. And the judge actually respected that more than you could imagine. Judge looked straight at me in the eyes and said: " William, I respect that.
What did you do? Such never happens in my courtroom. People come here and are trying to get away from sentence, roaring nonsense. I I respect what you are.
did. You did it.
right. You still clean. You still sober. I still have had to pass urine tests there, or Where else? So, in intensive outpatient program, so I have there were records about my sobriety. Judge says: "You never there were no problems with by law. I never seen, never. I have in the file on you There is nothing. That's what I am I will do it for you." And I I held my breath. I I think: "Okay, I I will get some term". I definitely I will get some term. He says: "I I will give you a reprieve.
execution of the sentence." « "Suspension of sentence."
Eric. OK. I am not I know what that means.
but okay.
Don't get into trouble.
.
He says, "I will give you five years probation deadline for you too will have to pay compensation for this "sum." He called I have a certain amount. AND when he voiced it, I like this: "Damn, looked at his lawyer, like, you "He set me up." Type, it should have been significantly Less.
Billy, you are amazing.
Yes. You are yourself.
substituted.
One hundred percent. Hundred percent. And remembering this, I think, is necessary was to make copies these receipts or something there is more.
Anyhow.
I'm not going to jail, I I will not go to jail.
Yes.
Hallelujah. I can get out of court today. So I got five years conditionally. From me collected compensation. Uh, well actually, this is everything I came up with.
They wanted me to finished at least one more year intensive care, to prove your stability. Uh, and during test deadline, because I was addicted then, I had to to meet with inspector once a month. I had to to take the test there urine. This lasted close, actually I was fired from supervision a year earlier. So about four years and one month.
Of course.
They fired me from -under supervision ahead of schedule because I was well done four years. None bad, none dirty analysis.
Never.
I uh, reported to the inspector on each, you know, intended meetings. I did your own business. Paid out compensation. I even overpaid his compensation for that moment. I had other work. I earned a little more money. So I paid everything he could. I wanted to close this matter. I wanted to with this finish because they said: if you will pay compensation —they gave me 5 years—but if If you pay earlier, we we will free you from supervision, and with suspension of sentence my story will be clean.
Yes.
They will remove it from my business.
Oh, wow.
So as I stand here today, this No criminal records, nothing. My biography flawless. I have There is nothing in the file.
Good, thank God.
One thing I want to say for the listeners and the audience: this podcast about sobriety and dependence.
Yes.
This is not legal.
advice.
Oh no. Certainly, in no case, but always consult with lawyer.
Always have it with you.
lawyer. I understand, in What state were you in?
but. It's like: I just started sober lifestyle. We are for it.
honesty, right?
Spiritual principles sobriety—this always do next correct step and be honest.
One hundred percent.
And I understand yours.
reasoning on that moment. I understand.
As I said before, That's when I started.
to keep sober lifestyle. It was my mantra. It was my new personality.
I was in your shoes.
Honesty above all else. AND when those detectives entered the door, I felt the moment epiphany. I thought: "To hell with everything." I will "just honest."
Yes. But I didn't even think about it.
lawyer.
Well, in your case looking back, It was probably worth it. That that you were honest, did all this and not They asked for a lawyer.
You know, when you ask lawyer, this is annoying cops, because they don't can with you speak. But in in your case it is clearly worked on your benefit.
100%.
In 99% of cases This doesn't work.
This doesn't work. You are the one the very 1%.
That's right.
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