The Spymaster, The Zondo Commission and The Phala Phala Saga

Added: 2026-05-24

[00:00:02]He he then states uh to me that you know um he's getting pressure from the DA >> to fire you >> to fire me >> and he's the president of the ANC and the country.

[00:00:16]>> We chose Pala Pala amongst the stuff that I have. So Palapala >> is one of the amongst >> is my one of of others. I spoke about the torture.

[00:00:26]>> Yes. The torture.

[00:00:28]>> Yeah. I spoke about the bribery.

[00:00:30]>> Yes.

[00:00:30]>> Now remember the bribery when they pay these people it's not in dollars it's in rand but the money that was stolen was in dollars.

[00:00:38]>> Dollars.

[00:01:00]So now you're out of the the agents that the agents ministered security then later you go back. How did that come about that you end up going back and now in a senior senior as a DG?

[00:01:15]Um you you see at around 2014 I think the elections was 2014.

[00:01:23]>> So just after the elections >> Mhm.

[00:01:26]Um, as I was observing what was happening with all of these dynamics, I I wrote the document >> and he said, "No, man. Here's something wrong." And I think the powers that be need to know.

[00:01:43]>> Mhm.

[00:01:44]>> And the least I can do is tell them if they don't take it take them away. Yes.

[00:01:49]Yes. Yes.

[00:01:51]But I write this document to to indicate that I can see regime change and I point out how the indicators and what they're seeing >> and that document states that in 2017 to 2029 there will be uh there'll be a movement towards regime But that regime change will be concluded >> as what >> on the 20 in 2029 and I show actors involved in it and all of that.

[00:02:35]I then uh get this fellow that took me to Jay in 2011.

[00:02:42]>> I said but just get me to the president.

[00:02:46]I think he needs to know this this >> we he can decide what he wants to do.

[00:02:52]>> I think Jayz was struggling with poisoning already by that time.

[00:02:58]>> So I go and brief him.

[00:03:01]Um and uh he then tells me, you know, I've appointed Matlobo in charge of minister >> and um uh I think you you must find brief him, but I'll get him to call you.

[00:03:24]After a while, Matlobo reaches out to me.

[00:03:28]I go and see Mlobo.

[00:03:31]Uh but I see him at a venue, somebody else's venue. I'm not going to go into I see him at this venue. I do the presentation to him.

[00:03:44]Finds it interesting and say he will revert.

[00:03:52]Don't hear from Moba. I think the Yeah. Don't hear.

[00:04:00]Then in 2016 I I get a call from this fellow again to say >> president wants to see you.

[00:04:10]>> Mhm.

[00:04:11]>> Uh will you go? So I said no I will do that. I go to him. Now just remember I I'm supposed to be a Zuma man. I can't find myself to >> But you don't have a direct line to him.

[00:04:24]Yeah. So uh I go to see him.

[00:04:29]He then tells me comrade Arthur you know uh I have a problem. I thought my legacy of what I do will be shown in the security sector.

[00:04:41]>> Mhm.

[00:04:42]>> But my comrades are disappointing. In actual fact I I don't understand them anymore.

[00:04:48]>> Mhm. So, I I need you uh I need people to fix the machinery.

[00:04:58]Uh would you be interested in going back to the farm >> to to run the show?

[00:05:07]>> Of course, I was surprised, but I told him, "Look, I'll have to think about that, but I'll be interesting interested, but on condition."

[00:05:16]>> And what were those conditions?

[00:05:19]I didn't want political interference.

[00:05:21]>> Okay.

[00:05:22]>> You know, and when I'm saying political interference, to direct on what we work on, >> one and two, telling me who to appoint.

[00:05:33]>> Okay.

[00:05:33]>> Because that is the quickest way >> to just Yeah. you know and and and he then uh told me that look you um I'll come back to you and then they came back to me just before I mean at the beginning of September they asked me to submit my forms for vetting blah blah blah 2016 >> 16 okay >> I report to the to the agency >> and now as a DG >> as a DG >> yes Yeah.

[00:06:09]Um, which was a a daunting task. Um, but not insurmountable because at least I had grown through the agency.

[00:06:20]>> So, and I think in my career I've learned that bureaucracy is based on systems. So, you must set systems, checks and balances and the like.

[00:06:33]Um, yeah. And that's what I embarked on immediately I got there, you know. And so my first observation when I get there is I realized that the agency structure is inconsistent with the governing legislation and I ask people but how is that the legislation I think it's 20 2013 promuggated how do we find ourselves here and then compile a a team in October and I give them four months to go to every unit.

[00:07:14]Phenomenal team.

[00:07:17]There's capable people on that farm.

[00:07:19]>> They just not used very capable people.

[00:07:24]They they in they went to every operational unit.

[00:07:30]They did scenario planning because I told them they must plan beyond the NDP the national development planning uh what's it national development plan >> yes >> so I told them let's cast our outlook to 20 35 so that as we fix the agency now we must understand what the needs of the agency will be future 5 10 15 years down the line >> so That's what we they do and they execute it and we streamline the agency.

[00:08:06]But by now we we have a more functional agency.

[00:08:11]I believe I also make sure that we we we fix the optics of the firm >> so that we look at the terrain and that that is there. We also get people to remove shredded flags and ensure that they put a regime in place where you hoist and dehoist flags.

[00:08:33]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:08:35]>> We actually uh before the intelligence I reinstate intelligence services day that Linda >> it hadn't taken place for 10 years. So I reintroduced that it it hasn't taken place again >> from the time that 2017 reint and why is it important because it's about the pride and dignity of intelligence officers >> and the only time they can celebrate achievement for themselves but it also >> allows competition >> amongst that's the point you know every human being want to show that they add meaning to their lives, >> you know. So, we reinstate that. We develop a emblem.

[00:09:28]We develop a flag signed off by herit heritage council with our intelligent services. They we launch these things. So, we've got that emblem all of the things. We also state that if a member of the agency passes on anywhere that flag must be half mass so that anybody coming to their offices >> they'll see >> they'll see and know. So they must have an interest in who has passed on.

[00:10:05]>> Oh yes.

[00:10:05]>> You know >> so it was symbolic things that we were putting in place.

[00:10:14]Um, when they chase me off the farm, I'm I'm I'm just jumping forward.

[00:10:20]>> They pull down everything. They made as if that emblem never existed.

[00:10:26]>> So, let's go there. So, you are you are there at the farm.

[00:10:31]>> You get told that you're being there under investigation.

[00:10:35]you must move to correctional service for at least time to allow the investigation to take place.

[00:10:43]>> You um Yeah. You know what? Maybe it's Mr. Rewind.

[00:10:48]>> Okay.

[00:10:48]>> You know Jack Po's book come out.

[00:10:50]>> Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

[00:10:52]>> In October.

[00:10:53]>> Yes.

[00:10:54]>> 2017.

[00:10:55]>> Yes. Just before the Naz conference. And you can see all of these things, the state capture thing and all of these things are organized in and around the same time.

[00:11:06]>> Yes, we active civil society all of those things.

[00:11:14]>> But uh before Jack Po's book comes out, I discover a problem with our inspector general.

[00:11:24]>> Yes. who was the inspector general at the time.

[00:11:27]>> Um, his surname was Dinte.

[00:11:29]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:11:31]>> So, Dwe, Dr. Dwe was the inspector general and I I mean we had a cordial relationship.

[00:11:42]uh there were instances where he where my people didn't provide the documents on time and he would raise it and I would make sure that we >> correct it. So we even put a specific mechanism in place.

[00:12:00]But one day one of my chief directors come to me to say we're sitting at the logistics officer, a clerk's office.

[00:12:12]I said, "But what's he doing there?"

[00:12:14]>> Where in in your in the farm?

[00:12:16]>> At the agency's head office. Sure.

[00:12:18]>> He's sitting with a clerk in our office.

[00:12:21]I said, "What's he doing?"

[00:12:22]>> Mhm. They said no, he had an accident with his car and they to take the car, they must repair the car.

[00:12:31]The estimated damages on the car is 280 I think 21 odd thousand.

[00:12:39]>> Yes.

[00:12:39]>> I said but what happened?

[00:12:42]>> Because as a agency we pro provide protectors.

[00:12:46]>> Yes.

[00:12:46]>> To the driving that car >> that's >> and the person who was driving the car is supposed to >> they should report to something had happened.

[00:12:53]>> Yes.

[00:12:55]>> And then um asked this chief director, please bring me the report >> because he should have filled in the report >> uh what happened, you know, >> and I want to I want internal security to check with his protectors >> what happened, >> what happened.

[00:13:15]>> When I get the statement, I get her to bring me a statement. She then tells me uh you know Di this is not the first accident there were two other incidents >> before this one >> before this one >> I said but why are you people not reporting I mean firstly you must inform me but also it's a courtesy that the >> IG will tell you so that you at least know if he >> if there's a risk to his life or something >> something yes >> I then see that in his statement he says is that there was an explosion in the tire.

[00:13:52]>> Okay.

[00:13:53]>> And that the tire explode while he was driving.

[00:13:56]>> He was himself.

[00:13:57]>> He was driving and that he lost control.

[00:14:01]>> Where was the protector?

[00:14:02]>> That's the point. So now it raises because now must communicate.

[00:14:06]>> Yes.

[00:14:07]>> To find out what's happened. But again the explosion of the it's a concern.

[00:14:11]It's a security concern.

[00:14:13]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:14:14]>> For the you must be able to say.

[00:14:17]So I I direct my people uh to to go and get a forensic crash expert >> to look at the car >> to look at the car >> to see if there was a bomb planted.

[00:14:34]>> That's the thing.

[00:14:35]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:14:36]>> To to look at the car and do that.

[00:14:39]>> Um and I didn't want to find out about these other occasions, >> you know. And then when I find out, I find that on the other two occasions, the car was in unsavory areas.

[00:14:54]I'm just going to leave it there for now.

[00:14:56]>> I I know it's shabbin because I I remember I wrote a story about that that >> that he was involved in an accident when he was driving from a ship. I remember I wrote a story like that.

[00:15:08]>> Yo, you knew you know a lot.

[00:15:10]>> Yeah. So, so I I then in have this thing investigated and I then say look while we get the forensic I want to investigation report we then confront him also to say have you registered this accident at the police station >> because that's according to >> the law >> the law >> we hadn't >> and the previous ones >> nothing >> nothing So I I then I I then communicate and say look there's a problem here. I think he needs to respond. And I informed the minister to say look minister we have a problem around the inspector general.

[00:15:55]Um and I think it's something that you may need to to deal with. But now this then coincides with the launch of shak post >> and also my understand that there were also suspicious trip to foreign countries where he was driving.

[00:16:12]>> I won't I won't you won't go there >> I won't go there you know let me maybe I must finish this thing you see >> we we then as we investigate I then tell the IG that based on the investigation >> I think he is no longer security competent. Okay.

[00:16:32]>> Because when you lie under oath, it's a problem. So I then say, "Look, we are considered we want to reet you."

[00:16:41]>> So what did he lie about?

[00:16:44]>> No, the accidents.

[00:16:45]>> The accident how they happened.

[00:16:46]>> Oh, what happened?

[00:16:47]>> So he denied that he was driving from a shin and >> Yeah. And and then there was other things. So um I I but I think I explained that in some of that in my statement to the um to the SO commission. Okay.

[00:17:01]>> You know >> um so I report this thing to the chairperson of the JCI Charles at the time.

[00:17:11]>> Mhm.

[00:17:13]>> I reported to the minister.

[00:17:16]>> Who was the minister at the time?

[00:17:18]>> It was Bongo.

[00:17:19]>> Oh yeah. But >> Thomas Bong >> Lati Duba comes >> in February.

[00:17:26]>> And I reported to her also.

[00:17:28]>> Okay.

[00:17:30]>> But I go further because of other conduct of the AG >> I then told the minister that look before I withdraw his security clearance because he's no longer cooperating with uh the vetting officers.

[00:17:49]I think we request that we brief the president because he's a presidential appointment >> and that meeting is arranged to brief the president to brief the president.

[00:18:01]The president gets briefed. I give the dossier that well I took the went along with the minister the deputy minister the DJ and the president Lubis.

[00:18:12]>> Mhm.

[00:18:13]>> Stain speed was in that meeting.

[00:18:14]>> The advisor to the president. Yeah.

[00:18:16]>> Yeah. uh and the president >> and in that meeting the minister asked me to brief and I said I told the president you know as a caveat to say you know I'm I'm not supposed to do this because I may conflict the party this is my version and you need to hear the IG's version >> but I take him through >> yes >> and in concluding at brief I tell him that you know before he does anything I think it's appropriate that he gets the 80s version of this.

[00:18:48]>> Yes.

[00:18:51]>> And we have a very cordial meeting. We we agree we leave soon after I think it's soon after that.

[00:19:04]And I must tell you I uh the previous year I opened a criminal case against Jakpo.

[00:19:13]>> Yes. for the for the classified information that you used in the book.

[00:19:18]>> Yes.

[00:19:18]>> So it was a real report. It was Gibson's report. As flawed as it was, it was their report that you just put in the book.

[00:19:29]So I opened up a criminal case against him for access to classified information >> and the walks investigated. They even got affidavit from me. But to this day, we don't know what happened.

[00:19:43]just tells you what's happening in this country.

[00:19:46]>> Okay.

[00:19:46]>> Right. But what Jako does there was a I don't know if you you know the site the Huffington Post.

[00:19:56]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:19:58]>> They must closed it down now.

[00:19:59]>> Yes. It was been closed down. Yes.

[00:20:01]>> But it was just used up to Nazareth.

[00:20:04]Just after Nazareth they closed it down.

[00:20:07]So it was designed for specific purposes.

[00:20:11]So in the Aington Post, Zach for boast that he got two further reports. So this phrase is going on. He's got two further repo reports that he got from the inspector general of intelligence.

[00:20:28]>> Now that is the inspector general's own reports. He boasts that he's got it and he's citing it.

[00:20:36]my team that's investigating come to me and say look here >> the general that you investigated >> correct >> then because we were truthful we were intercepting Jack's phone >> because we wanted to see where are these characters that's giving feeding him with information now we find the inspector general calling Paul do you have a judge permission to >> always you know the issue with intelligence uh and and it's most probably uh the thing that's purposefully misunderstood we are so heavily regulated at least in my time we always comply there's no need not to comply with the law >> because if you are a risk to national security no judge is not going to give me a direction on you >> I don't need to All I need to motivate and I must be honest why you are a risk no churches can do so I had never had to fabricate things because I don't think we must use state the resources for frivolous things >> you know so we were on Jac >> the IG calling him to tell him that we have told them that he must investigate Jac All right.

[00:22:04]>> Mhm.

[00:22:05]>> Remember and to be frank, the IH's responsibility if classified information leaks from the agency, >> he should be holding us accountable.

[00:22:17]>> Mhm.

[00:22:17]>> So we told him, you should besides us investigating, you should >> also investigate. Yes. Yeah.

[00:22:24]>> So he tells no I they told me I must investigate. I'll never investigate you my brother.

[00:22:32]And he then tells him, but you know, can you fix a thing on the Aington postman because you've indicated there that I gave you the report >> on recording.

[00:22:43]I get that record.

[00:22:46]I go to the minister.

[00:22:48]>> Mhm. Let's actually do I said here you inspector general >> general with the journalist >> with the general with a target because we declare to you >> that we are being a target of ours.

[00:23:01]>> Yes.

[00:23:01]>> He he has access to everything. So we say yes now I'm not speculating. You can listen to it.

[00:23:09]I then tell her, "Minister, I am now obligated to withdraw this man.

[00:23:18]>> I can no longer wait because this empirical evidence I can't ship from there.

[00:23:25]>> But I want you to engage the president and inform him."

[00:23:29]>> So here's a USB. Please give it to the president. Let him listen to it. Here's your copy. Listen to it.

[00:23:36]>> This is on a Friday. I didn't know that the one of the reasons of the revoking that secretness was this phone call.

[00:23:44]Okay.

[00:23:45]>> Yeah. So >> Friday. Yeah.

[00:23:46]>> Yeah. So she takes her to to the president. The Monday she sees me.

[00:23:53]Uh she give me the heads up. The president say trying to withdraw his security clear.

[00:23:58]>> So we can go ahead and do that.

[00:23:59]>> Go ahead.

[00:24:00]>> Okay.

[00:24:02]I pull the trigger post consent from the minister >> and the president >> stating that the president told her.

[00:24:10]>> Yeah.

[00:24:11]>> So I do that goes to court.

[00:24:19]He takes classified information puts it in court papers. Another crime I oppose. Yes, >> this thing of his because he sites the president, the minister and me.

[00:24:41]Um, and it is that that the president say created a constitutional crisis >> by by revoking the >> the IG.

[00:24:54]He says that created a and then he says he was unable and this is in court papers to determine whose version to to believe. Now I can tell you up until the around the beginning of 2018 the I had never told me that he was investigating me. He never asked me a single question. And remember, if he's going to investigate me on the same matter that his predecessor did, he need to produce new evidence.

[00:25:29]>> Evidence. Yes. Yes.

[00:25:30]>> Because >> that case, as far as know, it was closed. It was closed.

[00:25:34]>> That's that's the thing.

[00:25:36]>> So I uh so I'm now told >> that you under investigation by the >> Well, I get I get to know that publicly.

[00:25:48]I don't get told that by the minister.

[00:25:50]Well, the minister tell Yeah. No, the minister did the minister uh tells me that um uh I'm trying to get the sequence right.

[00:26:02]The minister tells me that they need to transfer me. The president needs to transfer me somewhere >> while they investigation >> while they in but it's a temporary transfer >> while they investigate the IG invest completes his investigation against me >> but that the person my incumbent the acting person will will actually >> um >> be the bridge between you >> no review >> my my findings >> okay >> and then determine >> if the >> continues >> if they continue or not.

[00:26:37]>> You get told that the IG the one that you investigated wrote the report and reported him to the president and the minister is investigating you.

[00:26:46]>> Yeah.

[00:26:46]>> Without even informing you.

[00:26:48]>> Yeah.

[00:26:48]>> But you had a case of informing him to answer questions on the accident.

[00:26:53]>> Correct.

[00:26:54]>> Then what happens after that?

[00:26:57]>> Look, it's it's remember I indicated that I withdrew his security clearance.

[00:27:01]>> Security clearance. Yes.

[00:27:02]>> He went to court.

[00:27:03]>> Yes.

[00:27:04]Um and in my submission to Zondo, >> yes, >> I indicate that the minister told me that in his urgent application that the president had spoken to the judge president of High Court.

[00:27:22]>> Uh that will be Judge Denim Mumbo.

[00:27:26]>> Okay. Okay. that he had spoken to the judge of the the high court and they were going to manage this urgency but that the president has now decided that he'll have to transfer me in the interim.

[00:27:40]>> Okay.

[00:27:40]>> Until these things are settled.

[00:27:42]>> Okay.

[00:27:45]>> And uh they they offered me a different uh head of department post to to act and said can go there. I then agreed >> to go to correctional service.

[00:27:56]>> Go to correctional services.

[00:27:57]>> Why correctional service?

[00:27:59]>> No, you know I maybe I must state you know the the the first offer was to arts and culture.

[00:28:07]>> Oh, okay. Now I get it.

[00:28:08]>> Yeah. So I said but you know my skill set >> this is intelligence.

[00:28:12]>> Security intelligence and security. So >> you know you give me anything in security I'm prepared. I can assist >> in this interim. Okay.

[00:28:23]>> For them it was never interim. It was actually part of a plan.

[00:28:26]>> Yes.

[00:28:27]>> You know um and uh I was then summarily uh released and transferred and then given the the undertaking that these investigations will conclude and then >> you go back to your position.

[00:28:40]>> Yeah.

[00:28:41]>> Okay.

[00:28:41]>> All right.

[00:28:44]being at corrections.

[00:28:46]I think I was there at corrections by the third week, second or third week.

[00:28:52]I get summoned by the DJ in the presidency, >> Mr. William Lubisi.

[00:28:58]>> Yeah.

[00:28:59]>> Yes.

[00:28:59]>> A person I highly respect.

[00:29:01]>> Yes. Because we worked well together.

[00:29:04]>> And he then engages me um and then says that the president has asked that he gets me to resign from government because there's too much noise around me. Uh and I was quite I mean because I knew him I think I actually was emotional to say but >> so this is 2 weeks after you told that you're just being moved while you're being investigated after everything is done correct >> you're coming back.

[00:29:34]>> Yeah.

[00:29:35]>> Now you're told he must resign.

[00:29:36]>> Yeah. Plus minus two weeks. Yeah.

[00:29:38]>> Okay.

[00:29:38]>> So I I tell him but what's going on? And I and I state to him, you know, I say, "Do you understand DJ that if I resign because of this noise, Sha Po has indicated that I gave my mother 10 million rand?"

[00:29:53]>> Yes.

[00:29:54]>> You know, it means that I'm putting throwing my mother under the bus.

[00:29:57]>> Mhm.

[00:29:58]>> You know, and I told him that's not that's not going to be not possible.

[00:30:02]>> Yes.

[00:30:02]>> You know, so that's why I'm saying I was emotional around that thing.

[00:30:06]And then he he he said and I then told him I said you know DJ the president has access to a report that vindicates me.

[00:30:16]>> So I don't understand why he's asking me to resign when he knows >> the truth >> the truth. So what what what is going on?

[00:30:25]>> He then said look I I don't know about this report. I don't have access to it.

[00:30:30]I I think let me withdraw. I will speak to the president and advise him what you've said.

[00:30:37]>> So I leave and I know he indicated that the president on that day was on his way to Bumalanga.

[00:30:45]>> Okay.

[00:30:48]I mean 10 minutes after I had left his office 10 15 minutes he calls me back.

[00:30:53]The DJ >> the DJ.

[00:30:56]He says the president has indicated that uh he'd like to see you tomorrow evening when he's back >> from Bumalan.

[00:31:04]>> From Pumalang. Yeah. So he's indicated that if you can be at his house at 7:00 at night.

[00:31:10]>> Okay.

[00:31:12]>> Said no problem.

[00:31:13]>> Okay.

[00:31:14]>> But of course as I go back to the office I now realize that the 3 months is now three weeks. Three weeks probably. Yes.

[00:31:22]>> You know.

[00:31:23]>> Mhm. So, and and and and I mean it's awkward because now you're working with staff, you're interacting with people, but you know >> that they don't >> that this they don't know that you actually don't really know what is going to happen.

[00:31:39]>> I I go home next Saturday. It's a Saturday.

[00:31:46]I I go to the president's house. I'm there. As you would have realized today, I'm punctual about time.

[00:31:55]>> No, I know. I know. I know. I know.

[00:31:57]>> On time.

[00:31:57]>> I know. I know that. Yeah.

[00:31:59]>> So, I get there at 7:00 and uh as we walking in uh he greets me cordially. But before we sitting, he says, "You you know, Commissioner, I want to start with the DJ ended yesterday."

[00:32:17]>> Mhm. And I realized, oh, you know, this president, he at least you have the decency >> to sit me down >> to sit and take me through the whole >> Mhm.

[00:32:30]>> So he says, "No, you know, um I'm under pressure. I need you to resign and that's what I'm here to ask you." So I I asked him I firstly said, you know, I can't uh resign. I told him, "No, I said, "Let me go back where I ended with the DG yesterday."

[00:32:53]>> Mhm.

[00:32:53]>> I told the DJ, "You got You've got access to report that vindicates me."

[00:32:58]>> Yes.

[00:32:59]>> So, you and me know that this matter is not what it is.

[00:33:06]>> Yes. It's just been twisted.

[00:33:08]>> Yeah. And I understand it's politics.

[00:33:11]>> At least we understand the truth. So I don't think I can deal with the noise.

[00:33:16]Continue. I can deal with the noise.

[00:33:19]He he then states uh to me that you know um uh he's getting pressure from the DA >> to fire you >> to fire me >> and he's the president of the ANC and the country.

[00:33:34]>> You must know what he says after this.

[00:33:35]>> Okay, I'm listening.

[00:33:36]>> So he says he's under pressure from the DA. I said I understand that's political noise, Mr. President. He says, "No, but you are liability to the ANC commissioner."

[00:33:47]Hey, >> liability now.

[00:33:49]>> Liability >> in what way?

[00:33:51]>> That's the first time that I mean, let alone a president of the ANC. It's the first time somebody say I'm a liability to government.

[00:34:02]>> He says, "You're liability to the ANC.

[00:34:05]You are liability government. You're a liability to me." And I look at this myc president and I say and I then say so Mr. isn't is this how deep factionalism has gone in the NC >> because remember I don't see myself >> as a factional I'm I'm there as this public servant >> deployed by a movement at at least so I I I say you so this is how DP says yes >> so I admit that it was done based on fictionalism not on you being really a liability so to speak.

[00:34:47]>> Yeah. So I I then tell him but you know Mr. President he said but you helped in his head at Nazareth >> 2017.

[00:34:57]>> Yes.

[00:34:58]>> So I told him Mr. President do you think you'd be president if I helped >> and desert at Nazareth? Because I don't think so.

[00:35:08]And there was a pause silence pause silence because then I realized that I'm dealing here with something completely not that I'm surprised but I just realize we at that point and I then told him I now understand what I must do Mr. President and I placed my hand on my my chest >> you know and I then told him that look Mr. President, I can't give I'm not going to give you an answer today. Um, so he said, "Look, Commissioner, I want an answer. I'm now off to G20.

[00:35:43]When I get back, I want I want an answer from you."

[00:35:48]>> Okay. Said, "No, fine. I would have consulted with my family. I'm fine."

[00:35:54]>> Did they at least offer you coffee or tea?

[00:35:57]>> I don't even think that time there wasn't time for coffee and tea. This was arrived.

[00:36:01]>> Okay. All right. Right. It it was just a rush, you know.

[00:36:06]>> Uh >> how long will that did that whole thing last perhaps?

[00:36:10]>> Not even a half an hour. I mean, it's part of what we were just discussing now. Yes.

[00:36:15]>> Wasn't more than that.

[00:36:17]>> But I told him when I left, I said, you see, Mr. President, when you come back from G20, >> I want you to call me to instruct me to resign. I'm not going to accept any proxy on your behalf.

[00:36:31]>> Yes. So just accept that any proxy approach me I'm not going to entertain that >> everything must come direct from you okay >> not heard back on that matter >> so okay so it's still at G20 as far as concerned okay >> but remember I'm supposed to be in my 3 months only >> the correctional service yes >> so I then go back to the office more uncertain because now I know I may just have an extra week >> yes or extra day or >> that's it So you you having to say you just keep yourself busy, make sure that officials don't realize >> that. Yeah.

[00:37:08]>> Yeah. But you must you must still you still pro must provide leadership.

[00:37:12]>> Yes.

[00:37:13]>> And uh the president didn't come back to me after G20 >> but then he did something else. That's when he appointed the high panel review committee team >> to >> correct.

[00:37:28]>> And what do you make of that? Do you think he appointed that team to finish what he started because they realized that we're not going to resign or something else?

[00:37:40]>> No, I believe it's that. But you see, you know what's what's happening in the country is interesting.

[00:37:48]>> And this happened for a while. You will see that old apartate oper operatives have become emboldened.

[00:38:00]So what do they do? They they believe that they can openly state what the intentions are and where they believe the times go.

[00:38:11]>> Okay.

[00:38:12]>> Right.

[00:38:13]>> So there's a range of books that's coming now written by which will actually show you they're actually exposing some of the people that had worked with him. Now there there's this guy Nel Dr. Nel Mar.

[00:38:27]>> Yes. Dr. Nel Mar. Yes. He writes a lot for Daily Maverick.

[00:38:30]>> Yes.

[00:38:32]>> Opinion. Yes.

[00:38:33]>> Yeah. But you see he if you if I can just frame now he he comes from N.

[00:38:43]Neil Barner took him with him from N to constitutional development.

[00:38:48]>> Okay.

[00:38:49]>> After when Neil Barard went to the Western Cape he went back to SAS.

[00:38:54]>> Okay.

[00:38:54]>> All right.

[00:38:56]He ultimately resigned from SUS and there's there's indications why people say why he resigned.

[00:39:03]>> Okay.

[00:39:04]>> All right. And it had to do with darker complexion people.

[00:39:08]>> Okay.

[00:39:08]>> If I can put it that way.

[00:39:11]>> But now Mar writes an article in February in >> I think it was the 5th of February.

[00:39:18]>> 5th of February.

[00:39:19]>> Yes. Yes. He writes an article where he basically tells the president what to do with the agency >> and who must be fired.

[00:39:33]>> That's it. But you know it's interesting.

[00:39:37]He firstly frames Jayz as part of and entrenched in exile politics. I think and he goes on to say Ramapora doesn't have that baggage. In actual fact, Ramapza might have been investigated by this because they could have thought that he's part of the counterrevolutionary forces. That's interesting for me to say that.

[00:40:09]>> And then he indicates that they must get rid of Bongo and Fraser. That's security. That's state security. But he goes further. He says, you know, you must you you mustn't just get rid of them. You must actually get rid of that entire top tier leadership. Now, you're talking about competent at that point competent uh operatives within the environment. I think some of the most competent I would believe in my time in intelligence.

[00:40:42]>> You say you must get rid of all of them.

[00:40:45]But he he celebrates three of of former DS operatives and he says they were world class DGs.

[00:40:59]He identifies Moshe, he identifies Gibson and Chen and he identifies uh Barry Gilda.

[00:41:14]You can make up your own opinion.

[00:41:16]>> Yeah. I I was busy thinking about it as well. Yeah.

[00:41:19]>> Right.

[00:41:21]>> Because what's significant about these three players, Barry Gilder gets Oh, and and before I get there, he goes further to say that the agency is politicized. It's all about factionalism.

[00:41:41]And in actual fact that intelligence has become a blunt tool for the ruling party.

[00:41:48]>> Okay.

[00:41:48]>> But then he celebrates these ones.

[00:41:50]>> Okay.

[00:41:51]>> All right.

[00:41:51]>> And then he doesn't acknowledge that also Gibson is also a former MK operative. He's an a gilder. You see >> mohe as well.

[00:42:02]>> You see? So the rest of us are not world class >> unless probably they belong to the right faction.

[00:42:09]>> I I don't Yeah. They are wedge driver. I mean the old guard is about wedge driving. So that may be I don't know because remember Gibson assisted Juma when he was fired from government.

[00:42:23]>> Yes.

[00:42:23]>> He pro he was part of Zuma security at the time.

[00:42:26]>> Yes. Yes. I remember that you know.

[00:42:28]>> Yes.

[00:42:28]>> And he took Neil Ber then to to work with him.

[00:42:33]>> Yes.

[00:42:34]>> So >> to protect former president. Yes. Yes.

[00:42:37]So you you can so I'm just saying but and he he so he asks that um the president must have a sort of review of intelligence.

[00:42:50]>> His characterization of the agency is some of the outcomes in the high level review panel.

[00:42:57]>> I mean Dr. Mar's characterization. Yeah, he's got it.

[00:43:01]>> Okay.

[00:43:02]>> Is exactly what the outcomes is. That the agency is politicized factionalism that that ANC comrades can't be trusted. They have no integrity um and that they're not competent, you know. So that panel gets set up. I must indicate that the panel at least invited me >> to come and ask >> come and do to come and talk to them.

[00:43:31]>> They didn't they didn't prepare me for the interview and I think they tried to hijack me in the interview. But be that as it may, >> I did a presentation entire day. The second day was dedicated to them posing questions >> questions to me >> and I think when we finish with the high level review I must say what Sydney's last Sydney Mafamadi's last comments are >> that actually is very instructive and illustrative of who he is and what the intention of that exercise was you know um so yeah I I think Now what what for me was problematic about the report maybe I must firstly indicate this was I think one of the first reports that got redacted and published and I think it was part of a a a attempt >> got campaign >> campaign to tarnish me further >> right um because it also indicate stated that the pan investigation must be reopened.

[00:44:50]>> Okay.

[00:44:51]>> And they must pursue they must they must do forensic and they must pursue criminal charges for Arthur.

[00:44:57]>> Okay.

[00:44:58]>> And others. Now this when this panel knew that the IG had already concluded investigation >> and there was a report to that.

[00:45:11]>> There was a report.

[00:45:12]>> Mhm. So what they did is they recreated a report ignoring >> a report from a higher authority.

[00:45:22]>> All right. So >> because they didn't it didn't come to the outcome that they they desired.

[00:45:26]Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:27]>> You see? So that's the one thing.

[00:45:29]>> Um uh I think that they ignore other things that had gone wrong at the farm. You know, one of it was there was a whole scandal around Belinda Walters.

[00:45:46]>> Yes.

[00:45:46]>> And Yuan Loenburg.

[00:45:48]>> Yes. Belinda Waters operating in a pan-like structure for Gibson and them.

[00:45:54]And these were this was public information and the fallout that happened and the the implic.

[00:46:06]that exposed what was happening in SARS.

[00:46:10]This this panel never thought that that had sufficient gravitas to be considered.

[00:46:18]There were documents uh that leaked in 2015 I think the Alazer spy cables.

[00:46:27]>> Yes. Yes. by Ethe >> those those documents leaked and those were leison documents between different foreign services and ourselves they didn't consider that it required to be to be reviewed also this is 2015 they go back to pans 2006 so the scope was initially during during Zuma's term, but they felt that to trap me, they had to go back to 2006.

[00:47:03]>> But they ignored these tapes. And the interesting part of these tapes is they know who had leaked the tapes to feal and they know that it was uh through a former nurse operative, but that it was ignored.

[00:47:23]>> Ignored. And the person that actually leaked it no longer worked for the agency. He actually stole the information from somebody to leak it.

[00:47:35]No, no, no concerns. So I'm saying there are there are problems that they should have confronted but they didn't.

[00:47:45]>> It's like basically their targets.

[00:47:47]>> So they have to look at a issue surrounding their targets. If you're not part of the target, they will just try to ignore whatever allegations are are made against you.

[00:47:58]>> Correct. The other thing that they say they they couldn't uh they couldn't give an opinion on is the IG.

[00:48:07]I mean, surely what I've shared with you now, I've shared with them and I directed them to where the evidence is.

[00:48:17]They never considered it, never even reported it as a finding from their side. So it was clearly a witch hunt directed at me.

[00:48:29]>> Why do you think they were targeting you?

[00:48:31]>> I'm again saying, you know, I'm a inconvenient person for those that want to execute counter revolution in this country.

[00:48:41]That's that's the only conclusion I can arrive at. Okay, >> that's that's that's my my take on that.

[00:48:49]So then the panel release its report >> and then and that report even after you spend the whole day explaining yourself it's only I think two paragraph or two lines >> I two lines >> two lines about two two lines that I said they just so it's dismissive I mean no regard but most probably who is Arthur >> but they still gunning for you but they disregard what you told them about you >> so they've achieved their target reopen the invest investigation and all of that. I think what was sad because at the same time that report I think is given to the president around December I discover and it's in on public record Charles my comrade he he goes in in December and write his annual report and he states uh in the report that the pan and investigation must be reopened when he was there when the IG presented and they endorsed >> endorsed us.

[00:50:01]>> So you sit and you say but you know here are other players now that you didn't expect and you don't actually know really why they are getting trapped in this thing. I think what's what what is more in March 2018 I'm told by by people that Charles marched the entire JSCI with opposition parties to the president. So fact I can tell you the president confirmed this voluntary to me. He said, "You know, uh, why did Charles come and bring the old JCI to tell me that they must I must reinvest I must reopen the pan investigation against you."

[00:50:53]And I when I got this, I thought, but this is a comrade that I had to risk my life to give arms to >> and also trying to make sure he's safe, not get arrested.

[00:51:03]>> Yeah, my lord.

[00:51:04]>> So, because for me, that's what is interesting in this. It's like 2017 Jack Po's book comes out >> you sue Jack Po >> M >> for defamation correct and the president sign an affidavit supporting you >> correct >> so that's what I don't get it I don't get because here's the man who's supporting your vision >> that you're being defamed that the issues are being dealt with >> but on the other hand he uses the same information in Japo's book >> to transfer you and also force you to resign Um, no that's true. That's true.

[00:51:40]My defamation with Zak Po happens in 2019.

[00:51:43]>> Yes. But the book was came up in >> came out 2017. You're right. Very right.

[00:51:47]>> Yes.

[00:51:48]>> Yeah.

[00:51:48]>> And the president supported in your in the lawsuit. He submitted an affidavit.

[00:51:52]>> Correct. You know there's something else that happened in 2010. And I know I'm now confusing your your timeline, >> but you see when Gibson them came in in 2010 when I left to go on special in January already when I told him that Bob can run.

[00:52:11]>> Yes.

[00:52:12]>> They contracted senior aparted operatives to come and work on the farm.

[00:52:18]So there's something >> obsession with aarted operative.

[00:52:22]>> Big obsession. big obsession.

[00:52:25]>> Is it what do you think? Do you think it's because maybe those aparted operative has got files on them and they're using those files to blackmail them to keep on >> I think they coexist at the moment. They for time not at the moment over years you can see that they've been coexisting and that the relationship is deeper than what we know.

[00:52:46]And that's why I believe that we must declassify those records on the farm.

[00:52:54]Those are parted records on the farm at at crime intelligence at defense. We must declassify it so that we look each other in the eye and we know who we are.

[00:53:05]But let let me just go back to I think it was 19 when Patricia Dil stood in parliament.

[00:53:15]He said, "I've got a list of all senior ANC members. Some of them are in this parliament who are collaborators with a part and she was told to shut up."

[00:53:26]>> Yeah. But she she knows where she got it and who gave it to her.

[00:53:31]>> Who?

[00:53:32]>> No, that Patricia must tell you >> because I understand there were 33 members of senior members of ANC in that whole list.

[00:53:42]>> Yeah. No, look, there's there's our our movement was deeply compromised. Deeply compromised. That's why uh there's a lot of avoidance and that's why we persecute each other >> to cover up for our sins.

[00:53:57]>> Correct.

[00:53:59]>> You know, it's it's sometimes it's not necessary to to deal with people, but we've lost comrades.

[00:54:07]>> I know.

[00:54:07]>> And we need people to be to account.

[00:54:11]>> Yeah. You know, we can't just allow these things to to pass by. And the fact that these people are instrumental in destroying our current democracy >> and also and also destroying comrades whom they know that these ones were on the right side.

[00:54:26]>> So because to cover up for their tracks, they need to paint you in a in a Yeah.

[00:54:31]So >> the review panel you you respond to to that after you realize that they only gave you two lines in the whole report.

[00:54:39]>> You respond to it. What did they do with your response?

[00:54:42]>> You know, um I I submitted the response directly to the president's house.

[00:54:48]>> Yes.

[00:54:49]>> And I delivered it there and I sought I told the private sector of the president that the president must be aware that I'm going to release my response publicly as he had released the report publicly. Yes. But I want to give him two hours >> to read it.

[00:55:12]>> To read it so that he's able to >> answer questions. Yes. Yes.

[00:55:19]>> He never responded. I released it.

[00:55:22]>> Mhm.

[00:55:23]>> But the fourth estate suffocated.

[00:55:27]And this is where I think I've told you on an occasion that the fourth estate in itself is complicit in where we find ourselves in this country. who was a member of the fourth estates. What are you saying about me?

[00:55:39]>> Yeah, I know I'm I'm talking to >> I except but you can it's easy. You just need to do Google search and you can see which elements within the fourth estate is actually driving these things you know. So our problem is across the board. It's not isolated. It's not a few people here. It's actually more frustrated thing.

[00:56:05]>> Okay. you know and it's supported from outside the country and that's been part of my submission to the zono commission.

[00:56:14]So then you your response go public about and then the ZNO commission comes in >> before we go to Zondo. Yes. You know I think it's >> the president has celebrated this high level review report.

[00:56:30]>> Mhm. even though I know he has read the my response and he therefore knows that it's a deeply flawed report because I was very specific in responding to all the allegations >> to the allegations because I would say this is the allegation this is an alternative response >> so he from that he could see that it's flawed although it's flawed he had still taken the recommendations to split the agency from being a unitary agency >> to splitting into two. So this panel and and I'm really disappointed with Barry Gilder and Sukupa that they >> they grew up in the agency.

[00:57:19]>> They grew up in the agency.

[00:57:20]>> They understand how it works, >> you know, and that they could decide to recommend after seeing what we have submitted.

[00:57:29]They recommend that the agency must go back to pre pre 2K when we are in the internet of things and AI. So we're in a different world but they direct the present to take us back.

[00:57:50]>> Are you saying to me right now that our state security has lost it?

[00:57:56]>> I think they've lost it. They they they've lost it because they've got parliament. They even got parliament to endorse the new legislation to split.

[00:58:06]>> I'm telling you now they that agency intelligence won't recover for the next 10 years unless somebody does something urgent. And the president has apart from my response to the high level review. I know the president has another report that was an assess globe. It's an assessment of other agencies >> across the world >> across the world on design >> of intelligence for the most effectiveness.

[00:58:39]He has ignored both those reports.

[00:58:43]Now you know post 911 the USA has gone to fusion >> centers >> so that they integrate. No, we decide we begin to separate. Where are we going back? So I think it's it's criminal what has happened in intelligence and I know that as we speak they taking out the last remnants of senior staff.

[00:59:11]They deploying them abroad. So it's a it would be interesting to see who they bring in and it would be interesting to profile those individuals to understand which purpose they coming to serve. Do you think do we have intelligence agents right now or anyone any terrorists can come in walk in do whatever and leaves without any >> I think we have a challenge I don't want to I don't want to rubbish but I think we have a challenge >> okay >> in intelligence I wouldn't want to because it's not good for national security >> okay >> just to rubbish but I think there is obvious intelligence failures that has happened over the recent past >> I know >> you see there's obvious failures and I don't think it's going to improve when you are not because intelligence is not like any other department.

[01:00:03]The craft of intelligence is acquired over time and through experience >> that is what is being ignored here but it can only be for a specific purpose.

[01:00:16]>> Yes, I get you. And you see as a nation we are cowardous that we allow these things to happen in front of us when we should actually pull the plug on these things.

[01:00:26]>> But remember then if you are like ziligas like myself you raise those issues you get uh uh uh vilified get all sort of things said about you.

[01:00:40]Ah I know remember when he was at at grade one he stole a pencil you know. So all those things instead of them dealing with the issues that are being raised the character assassinate you.

[01:00:51]>> Yeah. But here's where I blame uh the they still ruling the ruling party.

[01:00:58]>> Yes.

[01:00:58]>> Because they've allowed themselves to get to this point politically >> and in terms of what's happening in government.

[01:01:05]>> Yes. you know, so I I I think they must do introspection and they must realize that what's going wrong in the country, they are complicit. But I thought they've done it over and over because they've realized these problems didn't start yesterday. They didn't start last day. They didn't start last week.

[01:01:25]They've been here for for years. If they've not done so, is there hope in hell that they can redeem themselves?

[01:01:35]But I think as black masses, we need to rise and deal with this thing because I don't think if if the political parties don't want to do it, we need to make sure that because at the end of the day, we're talking about our future, our children's future. The truth is I benefited from from from this democracy. So there's nothing more I should be getting. It's really the future generations that need to wake up and realize that if they don't take this thing serious, they will have a catastrophe on their hands. How do you tell someone who gets 350 sasa money every that rebel against the same the same the same government that is giving you 350 every month and you know once they reverse that 350 you have nothing to eat but I think that's the reason we we are complacent because the same middle class that's working in government are just accepting the salaries >> not delivering the service because they realize nobody is serious is about ensuring a functional capable state. So everybody are we just going to accept it's unless we accept that we'll wait till this thing grinds to a halt or it's hollowed out so far that there's nothing left to steal.

[01:03:02]>> That's okay. Let's come to the zono commission.

[01:03:07]>> So zono commission is set up to look at state capture. M your name is mentioned several times because of all the the books written the reports and the the politicians um gunning for your head >> and witnesses go to the commission accuse you of treason accuse you of treason not one a couple of them you write back to the first of all before they accuse of treason By law, you are supposed to be notified.

[01:03:42]>> Correct.

[01:03:42]>> The commissioner that uh that you're supposed to be notified if someone is going to implicate you, you you don't get that notice.

[01:03:50]>> Not in all instances.

[01:03:52]>> Not in all instances.

[01:03:53]>> You get some of the notice are sent into an number of your sister-in-law.

[01:03:57]>> No, my daughter-in-law.

[01:03:59]>> Your daughter-in-law, >> but maybe you know she's now my daughter-in-law >> at the time. She wasn't.

[01:04:04]>> Yeah. Because the phone is registered in her maiden surname.

[01:04:08]>> Yes. So yeah, if I can, do you want me to follow that?

[01:04:13]>> Yes.

[01:04:14]>> You see, >> because I it doesn't make sense to me.

[01:04:16]>> Yeah. No, this this this phone is registered in a maiden name when she secured the contract, right?

[01:04:27]So for the commission to send to her means that they must have collaborated with Gibson and them steam and chaft team at the farm. those guys that were investigating the pans and that they had actually not only monitored my communication but they communicated monitored my extended family and girlfriends. I mean can you imagine no judge in this country will give permission for a direction of that nature. That's why I raised it with my council to say no these guys must explain where did they get that number >> and Pritorius was arrogant to say no I will show when Fraser used this number previously >> it's not possible how would I use my my my son's girlfriend's phone >> can you say did you ever use that number at any >> not at one instance Never.

[01:05:31]>> And and also again they knew where to find you. You were at at at Hoshimur where you were commissioner and where you were housed by the state. So so the state house you know exactly where's your address but they tell them that they can't find it.

[01:05:46]>> It's even more than that.

[01:05:48]>> Okay.

[01:05:49]>> The commission's investigators came to see me at the house at but now they said they can't find it.

[01:05:56]>> That's the point. They came to see me on the busasa matter and I gave them inputs on the busasa matter.

[01:06:06]How is it that they couldn't find me? So it just shows you again it's my complaint about and you see with all these commissions we see the evidence leaders and the panelists.

[01:06:19]We never see who's the investigators behind the scenes. That's what needs to become more transparent and visible because you see how they even appoint and recruit those people because at Jondo they recruited old G people and I think it was Dutton that was given free reign to appoint people there then they meet with the old coronies that's still in the structures and they they try and um siphon information that will will benefit their agendas.

[01:06:59]>> Yeah, I I I think that makes sense because at the zono commission there were certain abarted police were treated as heroes there and I don't want to mention it but everyone will know who I'm talking about. So, so do you think it was just deliberate to ignore you to so that they don't have to go to the commission and testify claiming that they can't find you? No, no. I think it was a deliberate ploy because you see when Jeff testified, >> you know, um we myself and my team, legal team, went to the commission after Jeff testimony >> and we then sat there for 3 days until we were able to get an audience with with the chair.

[01:07:46]>> Okay.

[01:07:47]just to tell him that you know this is unfair but since they've now allowed intelligence to be placed in open in an open forum we'd want to have access to that. So this thing of the chapen zundor saying that we didn't apply to testify.

[01:08:11]I mean it's just basic dishonesty.

[01:08:16]Yeah, because I know you applied because you your your you you had a big file that was submitted to the to the zono commission.

[01:08:25]>> There was a there was a statement.

[01:08:28]>> Yes.

[01:08:28]>> There was my response to the high level review panel >> and there were anious >> and there was that's it. Including seeking declassification >> of certain documents >> of lots of documents.

[01:08:39]>> Yes. You know, I even identified witnesses that will assist the commission to understand state capture as we see it. But for me, the other thing I think maybe they were worried about because in your I remember someone gave me the cop of the statement you submitted at the Zondo Commission, >> you wanted to go and expose certain judges of being on the payroll.

[01:09:06]No, you you see I I had indicated that >> there are presidents. I know of presidents.

[01:09:12]>> Yes.

[01:09:13]>> Uh that had done things.

[01:09:16]>> Okay.

[01:09:17]>> That feeds into this narrative where there's a corrupt relationship or manipulative relationship. I've also spoken about judges.

[01:09:26]>> Yes.

[01:09:26]>> And it also relates to money and external influences.

[01:09:31]>> Yes. you know, and but the documents I I shot was going to assist the commission to make a determination if what I what I was presenting would actually expose the actual rot we have in our in our system >> more especially the judicial.

[01:09:53]So if we've got at least six judges in a judiciary >> who are on the take, >> is it not worth?

[01:10:02]>> It has to be. It has to be. But it can only be some Zondo has to account why he was den knowing that >> who are these six judges >> when is when is the deputy chief justice >> and when you are saying I can come and help you. I've got the information that will identify the judges and how they getting paid but you get ignored or what what do you make of that?

[01:10:30]>> No, it's just what I'm saying. I just think Zondo got trapped in a project that he willingly complied with.

[01:10:39]>> Okay? You know, >> so now the commission goes on and on.

[01:10:42]you're not called to testify even though you have been you've been mentioned as a accused of all sort of things >> and you don't get to testify but then in that process >> you go and open a case against the president about the theft at his farm pala pala >> yeah can I go back just I just want to go back because I think >> the the issue of zonda Does this ingenuity >> Yes.

[01:11:14]>> must be clearly stated.

[01:11:16]>> Okay.

[01:11:17]>> You know, you know, apart from me trying to to to to documents declassified.

[01:11:26]>> Yes.

[01:11:27]>> Sundo argues that I didn't follow a process in the record of the commission.

[01:11:35]The commission approaches the president to declassify.

[01:11:41]The commission approached the ministry to declassify and the DG of SSA, the acting DJ at the time, Luis Aja and even Mang later writes a letter to every witness that came to the commission to say classification uh of anything of documents is not a reason not to present evidence. to the commission. So why is it just that Arthur didn't receive the same letter and that Arthur had to jump through loops? So there's inconsistency that he applies there on the issue of declassification.

[01:12:25]>> The second thing about the classific what sort of documents you wanted to be classified and what did you want to show in in those documents? I mean it's part of what you've touched on but you know the the point was it was to show what is really happening in this country. So I was asking for projects that had been concluded.

[01:12:49]>> Yes.

[01:12:50]>> So it wasn't live projects, it's projects that had been concluded. Look at what we've discovered >> and this is the findings of these things. you know, so he would then be able to have evidence before him that was pre prior year collected >> wasn't interested you know I I know that you know amongst the record I had also asked about the information that I saw in the agency >> around the president >> what about the president >> I'm not going to go into the details but I'd asked for the record I know about the record.

[01:13:30]>> Okay.

[01:13:31]>> You know, >> uh and I asked about him, his business associates and and and the like. So those are things that I thought that if a judge is serious, he he should be interested in those things.

[01:13:45]>> So you're telling me that there is a file or files at the farm state security about the president and his business associate that they not made?

[01:13:53]>> Remember Yeah. But remember, the farm only deals with with matters of national security.

[01:14:01]>> Okay, >> that's all I'm going to leave it at.

[01:14:03]>> Okay, I get you.

[01:14:04]>> I that's that's where I'm leaving it.

[01:14:07]>> Okay.

[01:14:08]>> Um so so I'm go back to Zondo. So Zondo's inconsistent.

[01:14:14]>> Yes.

[01:14:14]>> He doesn't declassify.

[01:14:16]>> Mhm.

[01:14:17]>> I apply to cross-examine my accusers.

[01:14:20]>> Yes.

[01:14:22]the commission. Instead, the the rule is they must write to to the individuals >> and inform them >> that you want to cross.

[01:14:32]>> That's it. And they must then respond if they are comfortable or not.

[01:14:37]>> All right. Not in this instance. The commission opposes opposes that I cross-examine them. I I understand in certain instances there were people that were told that you want to cross examinement and and you are not going to even crossexamine >> that I find in the record this is not even here I let me finish this one I'll come there you see >> so so um we so there's this this crossexamination that John gets the commission to oppose yes >> right irregular in my mind >> even from people who accused of terrorism That's it. You're right. He doesn't want you to cry with him in them. And Zondo in his papers in the review now that I'm challenging >> he he he states in under oath that you know when he made his order on my cross examination I had the right to review his decision you know and um and you know So I don't know how this man can be a judge because when he does the order on cross examination, it's December 2021.

[01:16:02]>> The commission has closed >> has closed August 2021.

[01:16:06]The president closed the commission August 21. He want the courts to believe that >> you didn't. I didn't uh apply myself and my legal team should have known that I could do this. So I'm just saying you've got somebody that's absolutely dishonest, you know, now to go to that point that you make when we look at the record because we ask for the rule 35 record.

[01:16:36]>> Mhm. And we then um so the rule 35 record is where we want him to provide or the commission and then it should actually be in my mind the presidency that should give us the record and then we must be able to contest but let let's leave that. So we get the record the first thing I realize post factor of the record that he doesn't give us the full record.

[01:17:05]Now I don't know if that is ethical or unethical but when we study the when I study the record I discover that the president the minister of state security and the judge president of Nambo >> responds to me wanting to cross-examine him >> and you never had any >> never asked I had no interest they don't claim anything. I had no interest. So it meant that the commission lied to people >> that you want to cross >> that want to cross-examine. So you see my only my my only conclusion >> conclusion is that you see Zondo was trying to peg his points his flags at the at the uh court uh by getting the JP agitated. So when I do a review there must be hostility.

[01:18:09]>> I get it. I get >> you see that is my conclusion. So I I really think if that is a conduct of a chief justice >> of a commission I >> it's where do we go? I think he has singlehandedly brought the judiciary into disrepute in my mind >> and you you have you have taken that his report into review >> review they're relying on section 30 47 which basically says you can't review you can't take civil action against the judge >> against the judges >> so that's what they hide behind >> okay so because the reason I'm asking about palapala because there's something that ties the Pala Pala invest your your complaint about Palapala and the Zonda commission.

[01:19:00]So on the 1st of June 2022, yeah, you walk into Rosben Police Station, correct? To open a case against a sitting president of South Africa, correct? Mr. Sama >> about a robbery that happened at his farm on the February the previous year.

[01:19:19]>> And uh that some money was stolen.

[01:19:25]>> Yeah. Two years before now.

[01:19:26]>> Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[01:19:27]>> Yeah. Then money was stolen. Yeah.

[01:19:29]>> So take us through that. How did you find out about it? Did you find out about it when you were still at the farm or after you no longer at the farm?

[01:19:38]>> No, I wasn't at the farm. Or you not at the farm?

[01:19:41]>> I wasn't at the farm.

[01:19:42]>> Because then if you were at the farm, it would be privileged information.

[01:19:45]>> Correct. You're wrong. It's ethical. So I wasn't at the farm.

[01:19:50]>> Okay.

[01:19:51]>> Um I wasn't at the farm. Yeah. Um I'm busy.

[01:20:00]But you see, because of my my history >> Yes.

[01:20:09]of of I think being bold.

[01:20:11]>> Yes.

[01:20:13]>> I think people came to me, not one person, >> okay, >> came to me and told me that you know do you know our president is is doing involved in this thing and this is bad.

[01:20:29]And that person asked me to actually pull the trigger because we should not have a president.

[01:20:38]that was that is involved in the type of activities that they were involved in. What activities are you talking about? No, remember you see people always when they talk about pala pala, >> they talk about pala pala as if it's only the dollars. Yes. And you remember and I still maintain that the dollars were made of the 580,000 that they saved. How much are we talking about from from the >> also in my in my affidavit? Yes.

[01:21:09]>> I speak about I think 2 million plus >> because >> because the they were saying that the president and the kuru that was investigating didn't know how much was stolen.

[01:21:25]So it was it was that you know but it so it wasn't just the dollars it was the fact that people got kidnapped.

[01:21:34]>> Yes.

[01:21:35]>> That people were tortured.

[01:21:37]>> Yes. You look uh that state resources was used.

[01:21:41]>> Yes.

[01:21:42]>> Um >> by the time because it was not it was not an open investigation >> that people cross the borders. Yeah. You know, so all of these things happened and I know I then got labeled again a Zuma man, what what I assumed that all of those people had said that was probably believed that you mustn't report Kai.

[01:22:08]Uh I'm just putting that there.

[01:22:11]>> Mhm. you know, but so when I got this information, I then collided it over a period of time and I tested it because I didn't want to do something, >> okay, >> that that will actually backfire, okay, >> at me, >> you know, and I engaged with the legal team to say, look, >> you've got this, >> I've got this, but I'm also being persecuted.

[01:22:38]>> Yes.

[01:22:39]for and I I mean I didn't share everything that I've shared today >> with the team but I've indicated that you know I'm fed up. I think if if there's no sanity and just justice in our party, I am pulling this trigger.

[01:22:57]And council's advice was do make sure that what you do is a relates to a criminal offense that doesn't have a political >> enforces.

[01:23:12]>> Yeah. and and and that's why we chose palapala amongst the stuff that I so palapala >> is one of the among >> is m one of of others >> and palapala came after I was was was out of the farm >> and then did these guys that came to did they deliver files and files or they just give you recordings or how did you get all this information >> they for a period of time fed me. I mean while while things were happening they were feeding they had fred and gave me certain stuff later. Uh so it it happened over a period of time.

[01:23:55]>> So out of all the stuff that you received you said it was Palpal was among other why did you choose palapala not everything?

[01:24:02]>> No because it was straightforward criminality.

[01:24:05]>> Okay. What's >> and it was money laundering. So people will say what is criminality if the man has kept the money in his own house and it gets stolen he doesn't want to report it.

[01:24:15]>> Well it's a crime.

[01:24:17]>> Okay.

[01:24:17]>> It's a crime.

[01:24:18]>> All right.

[01:24:19]>> The the second thing is I spoke about the torture.

[01:24:22]>> Yes. The tortures.

[01:24:23]>> Yeah. I spoke about the bribery.

[01:24:25]>> Yes.

[01:24:26]>> Now remember the bribery when they pay these people >> it's not in dollars. It's in rand.

[01:24:32]>> It's in. But the money that was stolen was in dollars.

[01:24:34]>> Dollars. So it means that there's more money in rans that was available and that was now being given to people. So there's more money laundering taking place here. You mustn't be narrow on this things.

[01:24:49]You you follow what I'm saying >> because remember in my in my affidavit I state that they were paid 150,000 rand each. Yes.

[01:25:00]>> So where did that couldn't come out of Holly's Kitty? So then again you now they're saying that was only 580,000 stolen >> and we disputing that fact. What makes you sure that it was more than that?

[01:25:15]>> Well apart from the people that told me >> yes >> and then this separate investigation and people crossed the border.

[01:25:24]>> Yes.

[01:25:25]>> During co >> Yes. you know, >> so a multitude of crimes >> were committed with and the people that was party to this thing said it was with the knowledge and the consent of the president. I'm telling you what I'm to what I'm told.

[01:25:43]>> Yes. Yes.

[01:25:44]>> You know, um so for me it is problematic.

[01:25:50]>> But from the people that told you all this, how much money was stolen?

[01:25:54]Look, they said they nobody could put a finger on it. They knew it was in excess of $2 million and not $8 million.

[01:26:05]>> No, no, $2 million.

[01:26:07]>> Okay.

[01:26:08]>> Right. And when you listen to when they interviewed when they interviewed David, >> there's a recording.

[01:26:17]>> Yes. Yes.

[01:26:18]>> Right.

[01:26:19]>> Uh in that recording, he says, "No, we only took 800,000 dollars because uh the the the woman's told them you can't take everything. You must leave something so that the president don't see you've taken the money.

[01:26:36]>> So it means there was something left.

[01:26:38]>> Of course.

[01:26:39]>> Okay. So also again when you said mentioned the issue of assets again when you look at the assets they they tell a different story.

[01:26:48]>> Absolutely.

[01:26:50]And remember at one place they even stole the Rolex watches from them and that when they were raiding those people in the milit Yes.

[01:26:58]>> Yeah. Correct.

[01:27:01]>> So and then the money that they exchanged at the Chinese >> uh >> and kept out.

[01:27:07]>> Yes.

[01:27:10]So now there's this thing you report it.

[01:27:15]>> Mhm. And then how far is it from with the hawks?

[01:27:22]>> Well, you know, um >> because there are two people must not understand there are two Palopala case.

[01:27:28]There's the one that the former manager at Palopala open when David and them were arrested. That's not your case.

[01:27:37]>> Correct.

[01:27:37]>> Your case is against the president.

[01:27:39]>> Correct.

[01:27:39]>> And Wally and them.

[01:27:40]>> Correct.

[01:27:41]>> So how far is your case? Because you were the first one to open the case.

[01:27:45]They opened their case I think a year later.

[01:27:48]>> NBA closed that case.

[01:27:51]NBA they opened their case 3 months after.

[01:27:54]>> Yes.

[01:27:55]>> I had opened the case.

[01:27:56]>> Yes.

[01:27:57]>> The NBA has closed that case.

[01:28:00]>> Your case?

[01:28:01]>> Yeah. My case was closed. They said there was nothing. Uh they couldn't prosecute. And that decision was taken by the DPP Limpopo.

[01:28:11]>> Yes.

[01:28:12]>> Aena.

[01:28:13]>> Yes. And it's an interesting name because that name appears other places also.

[01:28:19]>> Yes. North Cape. I remember. I remember.

[01:28:21]Yes. So what do you make of that? That on your case there's no no one to prosecute but on their case there's some people to there are the trial is going on right now.

[01:28:30]>> The trial is going on but the IP report.

[01:28:33]>> Yes. The IP report.

[01:28:34]>> Just look at the IP report.

[01:28:35]>> They paint a bit a different picture.

[01:28:37]>> Absolutely. Then you have to ask but on what basis did they decide not to prosecute on my case that is it's not possible are you going to challenge it now that you you have seen the iPad the report is giving you information you you see uh I must I must decide my options you know at the moment you you must make ends meet that's so those are some of the things that one would consider. But >> so talking about end making ends meet, shortly after he opened the Palapala case, >> you were approached and offered a whole lot of money.

[01:29:20]>> That's true.

[01:29:21]>> It's about 50 million >> plus.

[01:29:24]>> 50 million plus.

[01:29:25]>> No, it was 50 million and there was additional >> to drop the case.

[01:29:30]>> Tell us about that. How did it happen?

[01:29:33]Okay. You know, um that happened on the 15th of June. Yes. 2022.

[01:29:40]>> Yes. It's just it's like 14 days after I opened the case.

[01:29:43]>> Correct.

[01:29:43]>> Yes.

[01:29:44]>> Uh when I a comrade of mine >> uh that that worked with in the Dora unit.

[01:29:52]>> Yes.

[01:29:52]>> He was actually the commasa of the Dora unit.

[01:29:55]>> Yes.

[01:29:57]>> He gets approached by Mark Lman. Yes.

[01:30:02]>> Get contacted by Mark Lifman and told that he needs to see him urgently.

[01:30:08]There's a matter they need to discuss.

[01:30:10]So he goes and discuss meets Mark Lman and Mark Liffman indicates to him that you know he's close to the advisor of the president Benani.

[01:30:26]Um and uh the fellow asked him so how what does this got to do with me? He says no man you know in actual fact before I tell you what I've been asked I want to explain to you how I know this fellow. So uh Benjani is living in the same flats where I'm living because he's currently renovating his house in height park. So we are interacting with each other.

[01:30:56]So he says okay. So he says no Benjani has approached him and I think Mark must have indicated that he knows this fellow and that this fellow is close to me so they can >> and he then says look Benjani had indicated that the president had asked him to make this matter go away and that he was offering me 50 million to to to yeah to collapse this case but apart from the 50 million >> yes >> I he indicated that I could choose any department I wanted in government they would give it to me >> including you're no longer liability now >> yeah including >> exactly >> including intelligence >> okay >> to that the investigation ations that is being run against me.

[01:32:00]They would stop that.

[01:32:03]But more than that, they would also stop the investigations being run against people associated to me.

[01:32:12]>> Okay?

[01:32:13]>> Now remember I spoke about Prince previously. So they always targeting people >> around.

[01:32:20]But the first one was the one that I thought not possible. fished >> too far.

[01:32:28]>> They they told me that um they would get the um the chairperson Zondo >> Yes.

[01:32:38]>> to amend his findings against me >> on the Zo Commission.

[01:32:42]>> On the Zondo Commission's report.

[01:32:44]>> Okay.

[01:32:45]>> Um and when this fellow gave me this feedback because he felt he couldn't talk telephonically, he came to see me.

[01:32:55]When he gave me this feedback, I told him, "Bro, this is no, this is not possible. This is practical." Yeah, I think this is a scheme. You know, I'm not going to By the way, Zondo is supposed to hand over his report today to the president.

[01:33:12]>> Mhm.

[01:33:14]>> And I left it. But I told him, tell them to to go to hell.

[01:33:19]>> Okay.

[01:33:21]and I left it there.

[01:33:24]I think the next day or two I see in a a a statement from the presidency stating that the Zondo's final report has been delayed and that it will be submitted at a later stage.

[01:33:44]I then realized, yo, this thing can't be coincidence.

[01:33:52]And I I called him and I say, "Hey, bro, I've seen this thing. Uh, so this thing that this fellow is telling you is true." He says, "Yeah, this fellow has asked me to to see me after the weekend."

[01:34:06]>> Mhm.

[01:34:07]>> Says, "Why?" He says, "No, he's got the update."

[01:34:10]>> Okay. So I I He goes to see Mark. Oh >> yes.

[01:34:16]>> And Mark tell him, "Look, the 15 50 million is off the table."

[01:34:21]>> Mhm.

[01:34:21]>> In actual fact, it's a blank script. You must just put the number >> how much you want >> and they'll deliver it with all the other things, >> the other conditions.

[01:34:31]>> And I told him, "No, man. I'm not interested. I've got no interest." Uh what what?

[01:34:37]And that was it. And subsequent to that meeting, Zundo hands over his report to the press.

[01:34:47]>> Subsequent to also my understanding, subsequent to that, you get hitmen on you.

[01:34:54]>> Oh, no. No, you're right. Sorry. That's sorry. Sorry. I forgot that.

[01:34:59]>> Yes.

[01:34:59]>> No. There was um when when he's meeting on the first meeting.

[01:35:06]>> Yes. where the 50 million is set. I forgot that. Thank you.

[01:35:12]>> Benjani calls Mark while they sitting >> engaging with my comrade.

[01:35:18]>> Okay.

[01:35:19]>> And Benjani and Mark puts Benjani on speaker phone.

[01:35:25]>> And as as Benjani asks Mark, "Have you met these people and what did they say?"

[01:35:32]>> Mark says, "No, I'm just meeting them."

[01:35:34]>> Okay.

[01:35:36]But I think Benjani doesn't realize on speaker phone.

[01:35:40]>> Okay.

[01:35:40]>> So he tells them please tell them that if they don't take this offer we have already spoken to a businessman.

[01:35:52]>> Mhm.

[01:35:53]>> And he will be getting us in kabi. So if they don't take this offer they will get the inabish to deal with us with me.

[01:36:00]>> Okay.

[01:36:02]Now this is what my comrade says he heard.

[01:36:06]>> Yes.

[01:36:06]>> So this wasn't conveyed by Mark. No, >> this is what he heard telephonically >> and and that is what he told me. I still told him to >> to to get lost.

[01:36:18]>> Okay.

[01:36:19]>> So So yeah, you you're absolutely right with with the >> and then you confirmed that the heat was all in true.

[01:36:27]>> I confirmed that was true. You guys had to go to >> Kazet.

[01:36:33]>> I won't mention where you went >> just to try and make sure that you guys don't get killed.

[01:36:38]>> But you would remember you called us.

[01:36:42]>> Yes.

[01:36:42]>> A few months later.

[01:36:44]>> Yes. Yes.

[01:36:44]>> To tell us that this heat that you're talking about.

[01:36:47]>> Yes.

[01:36:48]>> So that was the second heat.

[01:36:50]>> Yes. remember we >> yours was >> I picked up a heat and then you contact both of us to say hey you've got there's this heat on the three of us >> right >> and and that's when we >> decide that we need to engage >> understand is are these people serious what is it what is at stake here >> yes >> so that we engaged and confronted people on that matter >> and I understand one of Someone made a confession to you guys.

[01:37:22]>> Confirmed.

[01:37:23]>> Confirmed that everything >> that that was so and that money was exchanged >> to kill you.

[01:37:28]>> Yeah.

[01:37:30]>> Um and um I'm not sure whether you want to talk about but that the whole confession is recorded.

[01:37:37]>> Uh no uh at least myself and Sikatani was present.

[01:37:43]>> Okay. When they made >> when that's so I'm not going to go into the detail.

[01:37:46]>> Okay. Okay.

[01:37:48]>> Yeah.

[01:37:48]>> Okay. So now where to from here? Now you opened a case you believe that was bungled and was not properly investigated and no no I think it's criminal what has happened because it meant that the president has allowed uh a chapter 9 institution to actually breach their principle of office. I mean the issue of the reserve bank. Have you ever heard another case where the reserve bank can tell you there's a incomplete transaction? Have you ever heard that?

[01:38:28]>> So some people must be held accountable because you see we can't want to be a law-abiding uh country when we have certain laws for some and we have specific laws for others. And I think people that have compromised their oath of office must be held accountable on this thing. And I think there's a need that people actually step up. It mustn't be a person. It mustn't look as if it's a personal thing for me because it's now not just Arthur that has experienced this.

[01:39:07]All of us.

[01:39:08]>> But do you think people are brave enough?

[01:39:11]We must we must decide if we are principled enough.

[01:39:15]It's not about being if it's about being principled.

[01:39:19]>> If this is if we want to live our life based on principle in a country then we we must do that and I think SARS must account because SARS are similarly dropped the ball on this thing.

[01:39:34]>> So crime intelligence cuz their officers were used to do this investigation.

[01:39:39]>> Correct. The grabber was used to do to trace all this thing.

[01:39:43]>> Correct.

[01:39:44]>> So >> and the other people that assisted that was not part of the state.

[01:39:48]>> Yes.

[01:39:49]>> Those people must be otherwise we allowing people to get away with doing these things. And you see, so we can look at Madlanga, but if we can't get the state to have integrity and its leadership, how do we expect criminals to to comply uh with the uh the the rule of law?

[01:40:15]>> So where to from here I may ask you now all this thing have done this? I don't want to get in advocacy work because I think we need to build a strong civil civil society >> where we can hold people accountable without fear of favor and that we look look at the interest of the majority of the citizens in this country. But if then you get have hold people accountable but they get lod off by investigators like in your case the hawks close the case and uh then what's the what's the point?

[01:40:53]>> No but I think if we have a a platform that we able to use if we able to put a coherent platform together it's at the moment individually you won't be able to to succeed. I think you need to develop platforms that's going to build momentum and rebuild trust in this country.

[01:41:17]>> Do you have trust in our judiciary?

[01:41:20]>> I have indicated what I think Jeo has done to me.

[01:41:25]>> Okay. you know, and I think it it will take time to see if our judiciary is able to rise because I think the the impact that a former chief justice has committed in this country >> because the reason I'm asking this is not because for me it's not Zondo alone.

[01:41:46]You we're going to expose at least six judges >> if you're giving a platform at the Zondo commission but you never given that. So we don't know what those six judges are they working alone are they working with others is have they stopped doing whatever they were doing that you wanted to expose are they still continue for me that's that's where the issue is >> but you see if you have a functional intelligence >> yes >> you know so you the state has to change you need to make sure that you impact on that we need to we need to demand more and different what we currently have is not going to allow that to happen. I agree with you. But I think we can.

[01:42:30]>> You can if we think we can.

[01:42:32]>> Yeah.

[01:42:33]>> But we can if we can make it happen.

[01:42:35]>> Yeah. And if we allow people to have conscience and take become accountable and active citizens.

[01:42:42]>> But again I'm I said to you if you say someone who only rely on the government's 350 SAS grant >> I understand >> and he said to them just snitch on the same people that are giving you that 350. They look at okay if I snitch I lose the 350 I sleep with an empty stomach. But if I keep my mouth shut and my eyes closed, I get a 350 how much money they're getting. True.

[01:43:08]>> And then >> the road continues.

[01:43:12]>> And but the point of the end, at the end of the day, it's not them who are going to suffer. It's going to be our children, our grandchildren, and the future of this country. But you'd remember that this democracy didn't come because the majority had taken the robot. It was a small group.

[01:43:30]again.

[01:43:31]>> Yes, >> that actually spared it this democracy to realize it's just you need to most probably the problem is that that uh that contingent if I could say of activism has actually been consumed.

[01:43:50]>> Yes.

[01:43:51]>> Uh by the middle class. So they themselves have become passive. But we need that type of activism back.

[01:43:58]>> Is there future in this country?

[01:44:01]You have to hope you know because being hopeless is not the choice and disappointed.

[01:44:08]>> Mr. Fraser, I thank you very much for coming here and coming to open old wounds you know with me and try to take us into your confidence about things that you know things you wish to have been dealt with openly not behind closed door. Thank you very much for your time and uh for sharing this information with us.

[01:44:32]>> Thank you.

[01:44:36]>> Join us again for the next episode of Unpopular Opinion with our next guests and thank you very much for watching this Hey, hey, hey.