Special: Holly Madison’s 'Lethally Blonde' | Jesse Weber Live Full Show

Added: 2026-06-01

[00:00:07]Hey everybody and welcome to our special Crime Con edition of Jesse Weber Live.

[00:00:11]That's right, we're coming to you live once again from Las Vegas. This is the site of this year's convention of all things true crime. It's the place where those who follow these cases, they can meet the journalists and the investigators and the attorneys who are trying to solve some of the biggest questions in these stories. And right now, where are we? We're back. We're sitting on the famous pirate ship at the Treasure Island Hotel. We love the pirate ship. We love the pirate ship.

[00:00:36]Now, it's actually kind of hard to describe what Crime Con is like unless you've been here. I would say basically you have thousands of crime enthusiasts who are joining us here on the Las Vegas strip who know these stories and cases better than anybody. And we actually got a chance to talk to some of these amazing people, the Crime Con speakers about why they wanted to be here. Take a look.

[00:00:58]I love Crime Con. I went to my first one in 2017 in Orlando. And the case that I can't stop obsessing about is Nancy Guthrie because we're from Arizona.

[00:01:07]>> I found that my mother had been murdered 33 years ago last summer. I found that out for the first time. And here I am to try to get her killer captured and also be with my true crime people.

[00:01:20]>> The reason I'm here is because we're National Center Mission Exploited Children. We have a booth and we're here to help find missing children across the country. We are excited to see the Well, John Douglas.

[00:01:29]>> Yeah.

[00:01:30]>> Yeah. Beth has a crush on John Douglas.

[00:01:33]>> And one of my favorite uh YouTubers would be Jesse Weber. I think he is very intelligent and very good looking.

[00:01:45]>> It's a shame we uh paid her to say that, but it's fine nonetheless. Okay, so bottom line is great people here doing great work, and we have a jam-packed Crime Con show for you tonight. So, first up, Holly Madison. Okay, you remember her as a Playboy model, girlfriend of Hugh Hefner, reality star.

[00:02:00]Well, now she's hosting a new series.

[00:02:03]It's called Lethally Blonde. It's a great title. Great title. And she's going to tell you what that show's all about. Plus, our friend, celebrity attorney Mark Gargo, is going to join me live right here on the pirate ship. One of his most famous clients, Scott Peterson. Okay, Mark is going to be with me. Give us a sneak peek at this new documentary, Scott Peterson, the new evidence. What is the new evidence?

[00:02:24]Also, I had a chance to talk with Crime Kong megastar FBI profiler John Douglas.

[00:02:30]So, we also have an all-star legal panel going to join us live. You'll recognize the names. We're going to do this game where we say, "Would you take the case?"

[00:02:37]kind of legal roulette. Would you take the case? All that ahead, but we got to start with this first. So, let's uh let's get to it right now. It is no secret that Las Vegas is known for being home to some of the more scandalous and sensational industries out there, right?

[00:02:52]It's all about beauty. It's about ambition. And let's be honest, it's the type that young women chasing dreams of money and modeling and entertainment, they might turn to without quite realizing the ugly underbelly that makes those seductive worlds go round and round. And I will tell you, sometimes there are deadly consequences. Holly Madison. Holly Madison's rise to fame came as a Playboy model and star of the reality show The Girls Next Door, which documented her life at the Playboy Mansion with Hugh Hefner. So, Holly understands that allure of that dream and the dark side of it, and that is what she focuses on as the new host and executive producer of Investigation Discovery's new series, Lethally Blonde.

[00:03:36]Take a look.

[00:03:38]Beauty can get you attention and it can make you rich, but if you're not careful, it can destroy you.

[00:03:47]>> No matter where Brooke went, she would have succeeded.

[00:03:50]>> She chooses to go where the big money was, the Moonlight Bunny Branch.

[00:03:54]>> Mary Anne Oliver Snow was a popular Tik Tocker.

[00:03:57]>> Snow had over 1.6 million followers. And when you reach that level of a following, it can become dangerous.

[00:04:07]Okay, so Holly is here at Crime Con and my excellent colleague, NewsNation senior correspondent Laura Engel had a chance to catch up with her earlier today.

[00:04:17]>> So tell me about this new project. Well, it's not new. It's in your second season, right?

[00:04:21]>> Yes, we're in our second season. We started off on ID with a show called The Playboy Murders that covered murders that had to do with people in the Playboy world. And Lethally Blonde is kind of an expansion of that. They're not Playboy specific cases, of course, but they're cases that involve people that come from really interesting worlds. A lot of people who are in sex work, on the fringes of sex work, on the fringes of the entertainment industry.

[00:04:41]So, each episode is super fascinating because you get to kind of dive into an interesting world on top of seeing a fascinating case.

[00:04:48]>> Yeah. What do you say to people? People go, "Okay, we know about, you know, the life that you had before. Now you're talking about true crime." And it does intermix because there's a a dark side that had happened all those years ago.

[00:05:00]and continues to happen in this industry, >> right? There's definitely crossover in the entertainment industry for sure. And one thing about these cases is I feel like even though people come from different worlds, you can watch the cases and really relate to the victims and realize that this kind of thing could happen to anybody. That's what I really love to do with this show is get into who the victims were more than just that one flashy profession they had at one point in their life that might define who they are in a headline. and get to know them as much as I can through the research and tell their story the way I feel like I would want it to be told if I were them. And hopefully the viewer can walk away with empathy and feeling a connection with the victim and a connection with their world.

[00:05:40]>> Yeah. Let's talk about some of the stories that you talk about in your book and how it relates to what you're doing now and the crossover. Is there something that has really stayed with you that has transpired into this new project? Um, not for Lethal Blonde specifically, but for the Playboy murders, we brought a couple cases to the table that I heard about while I was living at the mansion because maybe they affected people who lived there right before I did. Maybe they were involved in some way, and they were cases that I didn't see get covered a lot in the media, but things I thought were fascinating. I would hear people talk about at the dinner table, and they're like, "You couldn't write this stuff."

[00:06:14]So, that's how some of those cases even got brought to the table in the first place.

[00:06:18]>> Yeah. And do a lot of people talk to you about your time at the mansion? Can you talk to us about that? I mean, and how it correlates to what you're doing now.

[00:06:26]Obviously, it's a big part of your history, and people have to ask you about it. And I feel like I want to ask you about some of the memories that you might want to share as you go into this next stage of your career. Yeah, it was all over the place. You know, you saw the fun parts on TV. You saw the girls trips. You saw a little bit of shopping and like the photo shoots and the glamorous part, but it wasn't that glamorous, especially like in the first four years I lived there before we had a show. It was a lot of, you know, backstabbing and women being competitive with one another and a lot of manipulation and toxic relationship things, which if you get into a case that has to do with domestic violence, a lot of those same themes erupt. So I can speak to a lot of those things even though maybe I don't match up exactly with every case. You know, you can bring those to the table and empathize with the victim >> in times like that, >> right? What do you want people to take away from watching uh this new series, Lethally Blonde? What is it that you know, you want people to watch it, you want people to take part in uh being a part of the story in terms of following it. What do you want people to take away from it? I think anytime we watch true crime, I think some of the appeal is maybe we can learn something, a way to better protect ourselves and also just empathy for the victims and a feeling for who they were and hopefully walk away knowing more about the victim than they would have otherwise. What stories are you here to listen to? I mean, everybody in the whole true crime world is here uh talking about cases. You know, we get a chance to talk to forensic experts, DNA, all that kind of stuff. So, is there anything that you want to learn being here?

[00:08:00]>> Oh, you know what? I was interviewing people for my podcast, people who are out here for it. I interviewed Michael Arurburn. He shared, he's a former police officer, retired police officer, and he shares so many like safety tips online. So, I was talking to him about that side of it. I was interviewing Alexis Linkletter who does a true crime podcast, and she does Unraveled, and she was talking about a lot of cases today.

[00:08:19]So, I'm just here to learn anything new, a new case I may never have heard of, and different people's expertise. That's what I find so fascinating about conventions like this is you have people from all sides of it, whether it's law enforcement, whether it's journalism, whether it's somebody who was involved in a case in some way. You talked to Alexis Linkletter, which she covers the Long Island serial killer. I cover that as well. And one of the things that we've talked about is the idea of Rex Hurerman, who had a time share here, possibly being responsible for there's a lot of sex workers that have gone missing in this area. You live in Las Vegas. Talk to me about the crime and about the concerns about sex trafficking and sex work here.

[00:08:54]>> I'm extremely concerned about sex work and sex trafficking. I wouldn't mind it if sex work was legalized and regulated to protect the people participating. I'm completely anti- pimps. I'm completely anti- anything like that, anti-trafficking. So, I'm extremely concerned about that.

[00:09:14]>> All right. My thanks again to Holly Madison for that. Uh Laura Engel is actually going to be on the show a little bit later on. So, Lethally Blonde premieres on Monday, June 1st at 10:9 Central, Investigation Discovery with episodes available stream on HBO Max.

[00:09:27]Okay, so now I want to move on to something else. I'm really excited to bring him on. If you watch Jesse Weber live, you know the name Mark Aragos, the legendary trial attorney who's represented some of the biggest stars and some of the most high-profile court cases in recent history. You know what I'm talking about, right? Michael Jackson, Chris Brown, Winona Ryder, they've all been clients of Garagos. One of his most well-known clients had nothing to do with Hollywood. Scott Peterson. Scott Peterson was a salesman who hailed from Modesto, California.

[00:09:54]When his wife Lacy and their unborn son went missing on Christmas Eve uh 2002 to 2002, it set off a media firestorm that intensified when Lacy's body was discovered in the San Francisco Bay over 3 months later. Now, Peterson was arrested soon after Lacy's body was discovered. And during his over fivemonth trial, Gyaragos repeatedly pointed to the fact that the prosecution relied on circumstantial, not direct evidence to make their case. But despite that, despite Mr. Garos's best efforts, a jury found Peterson guilty of two counts of murder in November of 2020 2004, and he was later sentenced to death. Now, that sentence was overturned in 2020 due to improperly dismissed jurors, and Peterson, now sentenced to life, has been sitting in prison ever since. However, there's been a glimmer of hope for Peterson in recent days.

[00:10:40]Why? This is thanks to a habious petition that was filed by the LA Innocence Project. And the petition claims that new evidence from a burglary across the street from the Petersons that day, the day that Lacy disappeared, maybe could provide an alternative theory of what happened. And though a California judge denied that petition earlier this month, the LA Innocence Project says it plans to appeal. And despite the judge's decision, that petition has raised some big questions about this case, which is why there is a new documentary that is hoping to answer those questions. It's called Scott Peterson, The New Evidence. It's set to air July 16th and 17th on A&E. This two-part documentary special is diving into some of that new evidence, presenting a fresh perspective on a case that so many have already made up their minds about. Maybe if you look at this, you'll look at it differently. Now, the doc promises new evidence analysis.

[00:11:31]never before heard witness testimony, insights from those closest to the case, including Mark Gyaragos. And so now we have a lot of questions and I want to bring on acclaimed attorney Mark Geragos. Okay. He is the host of two podcasts in case you don't know.

[00:11:45]Reasonable doubt, two angry men. You can find it wherever you get your podcast.

[00:11:48]And Mark Garagos joins me on the the pirate ship. I'm on the pirate ship.

[00:11:51]You're on the pirate ship.

[00:11:53]>> A hat tip to Adam Corolla who always talks about the pattern. It was nice to have you here. Um, how'd you get involved in the documentary?

[00:12:01]>> Well, they they approached me. I thought that the last documentary that was all done for the first time in a number of years actually got people to reassess what they thought. this case of all the cases I've been connected to and not just me but we did studies we did venue studies you know we successfully changed venue because the prejudgment rate that people had on this case of guilt was off the charts Joel and Demetrius said she'd never see anything like it she had just come off of OJ and thought that was kind of polarizing this was even more so >> but I guess the question is why would it be important is it the idea of, hey, if he gets a new trial, people will look at this with fresh eyes, a fresh set of jurors, because I also do wonder, and I I'll ask you more about the documentary.

[00:12:51]Let's say he were to get a new trial. I actually don't know how many people know the Scott Peterson case. Like, I wonder if you had a jury, they won't be, you know, affect they won't know about it, won't be affected by it.

[00:13:00]>> It's one of the great things on one side about the American public is that they have a short attention span.

[00:13:07]>> The one exception to that may be Scott Peterson. I still see people who 20 23 years later still talk about it. One of the things that was particularly ironic, if you can talk about irony, the day he was convicted, the prosecutor handed me a report. The report had a um a tip from a lieutenant at Chino, which is a prison in California. It said he overheard an inmate talking about the burglary across the street with his brother. That report had not been turned over to us. They knew my you saw in some of the setup piece pictures of Pat Harris. Pat Harris, who I tried the case with, was fixated on the van across the street and the burglary across the street. They had never told us that. And Modesto PD had cleared the burglary, said it happened two days before uh or two days after, and that wasn't true. It was clearly not true. In fact, if you talk to any of the media, there was a media scrum out there the day after Christmas. There's no way the burglary happened then.

[00:14:09]>> So, so taking it back for if we talk about the documentary, we talk about the appeal. This never before heard witness testimony. I know you might be limited in what it can be. But if you're talking about an appeal, would would it be fair to say this is somebody or people that you didn't know about, could not find at the time of the trial, or these are people that their testimony was hidden from you?

[00:14:28]>> Both. And in fact, one of the things that started or jumpstarted the Innocence Project was an analyst from the Department of Justice, California State Department of Justice. He who had retired said, "Hey, there was a van that was burned out the day after uh she went was reported missing and there was a mattress and it had what appeared to be bodily fluids on it or blood. They deepixed that. They never gave that to us even though they knew that's what we were looking for.

[00:15:00]>> One of the other things is this new scientific analysis and this can be you know a big portion of why cases can be overturned years later. Fetal biometric studies. What is that? Is it the idea if you can prove that Connor her their unborn son was alive after December 24th there's no way Peterson could have committed the crimes? I mean that's exactly what is it exactly? And we had in the we we tried to show that Connor was born and that he was outside of the womb and there was tape. You also in the setup piece he had tape around the neck.

[00:15:34]We we thought that was compelling. The prosecution put on evidence with an expert. That ex expert has been debunked mightily ever since then. And now there is new science that shows that in fact given all of the ultrasounds and everything else that was done that in fact he probably was born and was alive for a period of time.

[00:15:57]>> So that's a portion of what we also hear in title pattern data also in the San Francisco Bay will be interesting as well. While I have you because we are running out of time. I got to ask you about there's a development in the Justin Baldoni Blake Lively lost. I which by the way I thought it was over.

[00:16:10]I thought they settled but now there's a fight over money right. What's going on?

[00:16:13]Yeah, I know you have some information when there was it just as we were getting on air today, the judge in the case filed an order and it basically said here it was I want a response on a couple of discreet issues. You'll remember uh after the judge gutted Lively's case. They then instantly settled. One of the reasons they instantly settled is because if you read the judge's order, the lawyers for Lively had committed egregious, I think in my opinion, errors that the judge pointed out, wrong jurisdiction, things like that. They instantly went to mediation, tried to insulate themselves from malpractice. They came back and said, "Well, this wasn't really settled.

[00:16:54]We he still has the ability, he being the judge, to file a or give us attorney's fees." Well, the order that he just filed, Judge Lyman did today, really calls into question what the attorneys have been for Lively have been saying and whether or not they misled their their client into settling this case.

[00:17:14]>> So, in other words, there could be a situation where she cannot recover attorneys fees from it's actually the production company, right? It's from Baldon's production company. So, she would have to foot the bill. Is that what you're saying?

[00:17:25]>> I I think that he's going to rule if I had to guess reading the tea leaves.

[00:17:30]Yeah.

[00:17:31]>> Doesn't look to me like he's going to triple damage. Doesn't need look to be punitive damages. He may give a nominal amount of attorney's fees. It'll be a percentage of what she spent and some insurance company will pick it up.

[00:17:42]>> Okay. Well, this story is not going away anytime soon. Um, you're going to stay with me because we're going to play that game later. Would you take the case? I don't know. I think you'd pick every case. So, stay with me.

[00:17:51]>> I was going to say I don't know.

[00:17:53]>> Here. I I tell you. I'm going to make a deal with you right now. I'm going to say with every case, you know what they are. I think you're going to take every one of the cases. But mark my words, don't say tight. He's going to take every one of the cases. All right, we're going to talk about it. Nearly 30 years after Tupac trip was gunned down on the Las Vegas strip right behind me. We could finally get some answers because the only man ever charged, he's headed to trial. The question is, did investigators miss something at the scene? We're going to take you to the exact spot where Tupac was shot with a top investigator who has worked on this case with Tupac's mother to help find these answers. what she says happened that night. It may change how you see this case. That's next.

[00:18:48]All right. So, tonight we're coming to you live from Crime Con right here in Las Vegas. again aboard the ships's I should say the Las Vegas Strip's iconic pirate ship. Again, big thank you to Treasure Island for letting us shoot here for the past two nights. Now, Las Vegas is a city that is built on the bright lights, the big risks, and I will also tell you some very dark mysteries nearly 30 years ago. 30 years ago, one of Sin City's most infamous murder mysteries, it still haunts us today. The unsolved murder of hip hop icon Tupac Shakur. September 7th, 1996, just hours after a Mike Tyson fight at the MGM Grand, Tupac was riding through Las Vegas with Death Row Records co-founder Suge Knight. And that is when a white Cadillac pulled up beside their car, a red light near the strip, and gunfire erupted. Tupac was hit multiple times and he died 6 days later. He's just 25 years old. And for years, there were rumors, there were theories, there was fingerpointing. It's all swirled. Was this an East Coast, West Coast beef? Was it a gang retaliation? was a professional mob hit. You know, the man long believed to be the shooter, Orlando Baby Lane Anderson, he was never charged and he himself was killed in an unrelated gang shooting back in 1998.

[00:19:58]But now, there is some movement in this case. What do I mean? Anderson's uncle, former gang leader Dwayne Kephy D.

[00:20:06]Davis, is accused of orchestrating the hit. He's been charged with murder. He's expected to go to trial on August 10th right here in Las Vegas. And prosecutors say it's Davis's own words that helped build the case against him. And Tupac's family, they are also now pursuing a new wrongful death lawsuit, claiming that others may have been involved. So joining me now on the ship, two people who know a lot about this case. News Nation anchor Laura Engel tracking the case from the ground in Las Vegas as this city is preparing for a trial that could maybe answer the questions that we have. and also investigator Cheryl McColl, crime scene investigator who worked with Tupac's mother to investigate investigate the case. She's also the host of the podcast Zone 7 and the author of the book Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer. Great to have you both here on my pirate ship. Good to see you.

[00:20:52]Thank you.

[00:20:53]>> Um Cheryl, I want to start with you. I mean, it's amazing the thing. It's kind of crazy 30 years still don't have a lot of these answers. Um now you were working with Tupac's mother on this. I also want to get into also the idea of the hitman. But first, I understand today you went with Michael Frances.

[00:21:07]Okay. Who former Columbbo crime capital.

[00:21:09]We had him on the show to the actual spot where Tupac was shot. I want to play that and we'll talk about the other side.

[00:21:14]>> Okay y'all, we're here at the famous intersection of Flamingo and Koval. This is where Tupac Shakur was murdered. He was literally shot and killed in this lane right here.

[00:21:28]And you know, being here, walking the scene, understanding how much activity is here, how many people, how many cameras, you know, there's only one more thing left to do, and for me, that's going to the source. I have a special guest that's going to join me here, right at this intersection, and talk to us whether or not this was a professional hit or revenge. I am so happy you're here with me to get your take. Tupac was where that silver car is, >> right? and he was flirting with some girls that were where that burgundy car is and the shooter came right up where that truck is. So the shooter came right up on the passenger side.

[00:22:08]The shooter was in the back seat on the driver's side, >> right?

[00:22:12]>> And shot in three different areas. So he shot before he got to the car, straight on at the car, and then one more time as he passed the car.

[00:22:24]Well, Cheryl, I can tell you that was a random hit. Absolutely. There was it was not well organized or well planned. You never do something like this. You know, anytime something happened with us, uh, you never found a body, number one, unless we wanted you to find the body.

[00:22:39]We always had a crash car in case anything would happen. We didn't do drivebys, you know. We didn't do driveby shootings. That's just kind of amateur stuff.

[00:22:47]>> And this is the reason it is so critical to me to go to the source.

[00:22:52]>> Mhm. You know, a mob hit. You know, a professional hit. This to me not only looked disorganized, it started 20 minutes before the shooting.

[00:23:03]>> Yeah.

[00:23:03]>> Why in the world would you follow somebody for 15 minutes who had a security detail behind them?

[00:23:08]>> Yeah. No, you you would never do that.

[00:23:10]It was absolutely everything. As soon as I I heard the facts of it, I knew I said this was a random hit, >> right?

[00:23:16]>> And we all agree.

[00:23:16]>> All these witnesses and cameras and >> everywhere.

[00:23:19]>> Everywhere.

[00:23:20]>> Yeah. And we saw what happened later on with the uh the actual guy who said he was a shooter anyhow.

[00:23:25]>> And he even said I gave him the gun inside the car. We did it. And that to me made the most sense. If you're looking at a professional hit, it's quick. It's easy. It's clean. They would have done it when he first got in the car.

[00:23:38]>> Yeah. And just so you know, I spoke to Suge Knight while he was in prison and we talked about all of this and he believed it came from Diddy. He said, but not that it was planned that night.

[00:23:47]people that wanted to impress themselves, you know, Ford Diddy just said, "Hey, we have a shot. Let's take it." That was it. So, >> and that's another reason Orlando Anderson came onto our radar because number one at the MGM, they whooped his ass that night. Yes.

[00:24:02]>> I mean, that's the reason you're going to go after him immediately.

[00:24:05]>> 100%.

[00:24:08]>> So, so great reporting by the way. You have a career as a reporter. I can tell.

[00:24:13]So the I there's senses of this that doesn't seem professional, but I also understand you spoke to a hitman.

[00:24:18]>> Oh, absolutely. So I spoke with Frank Colo here in Vegas when he was still alive and Frank was, I'm off hit. So I wanted again to go to the source to get his tape. Again, if you're a professional hitman, it's quick, it's clean, you're in, you're out. You don't follow somebody for 20 minutes. You don't have to shoot them nine times.

[00:24:41]That 40 caliber hit that vehicle nine times. Not a pro. And from the back seat. None of that seems clean, professional, in and out.

[00:24:51]>> I'll get to KPD in one second, but what do you think the motive was then? What do you think the theory of the case?

[00:24:55]>> Revenge. If you look at what happened at the MGM, Orlando Anderson was beat. He was stalked. When he goes back to tell his uncle, "Hey, this is what they did to me." his uncle, I'm sure, said, "Hey, you've got to take care of this tonight.

[00:25:10]You can't let this go or you're just a punk and they're going to keep coming after you."

[00:25:15]>> So, let's talk about Kei D for a second.

[00:25:17]Now, to be clear, he's innocent until proven guilty. He's been charged as the planner of this, not the shooter. But it's his own words. For people who don't know, why is that the That's like the key of the whole case, right?

[00:25:27]>> It's the key of the whole right now.

[00:25:29]There's no murder weapon. There's no DNA. There's not the traditional things that we would talk about. It's his own words. KPD has been giving interview after interview, writing books, doing a memoir, saying that he was in the car and that he was the one who wanted to have this hit happen. And you know, so it's his own words. That's what the prosecution is going to do with his words, but the defense is going to probably say, listen, he's just making tall tales. He's trying to sell books.

[00:25:56]He's he's fabricating.

[00:25:58]>> Has he been caught in lies in the past?

[00:25:59]>> He has been caught in lies. I mean, people have called him on it in terms of getting into court. you know, we're gonna have to wait to get there.

[00:26:05]>> So, let me ask you this. You talk about how there some of not the key components that you would need in a prosecution.

[00:26:10]Um, but they clearly think they have enough to go after him. I I guess the question becomes with respect to this, it's like how strong do you think the case is against him? Because I also understand, can they place him in Las Vegas? Can they aren't there certain hotel records that might be coming up as well? Like what's the other evidence they have to contradict whatever he may say at trial? Well, we certainly don't know all of it, right? They're they're going to bring him up to trial on August 10th right here in Las Vegas. So, you've got the hotel records that they will look into. There was some back and forth about where he was. At first, he said he wasn't here. Then he was here, but he has said, "I was in the car. I was in the front seat of that white Cadillac."

[00:26:52]>> I don't get why it took so long to charge him then. I mean, you just laid it out. You went to the scene. You spoke to the right people. You say it looks it doesn't look professional. Why it takes so long to charge KVD? I mean again assuming these alg there were other witnesses in that car who was the driver but shockingly even Tupac security system nobody would talk nobody would come forward so you know nobody in the shooters car is coming forward >> this wrongful death lawsuit Cheryl do you think anybody else is going to be charged any other many other people involved any witnesses >> you know I think it's a good possibility I think once Kephy D starts talking he's going to keep on talking >> yeah question is if you can believe what he has to say right >> that's right yeah I and we're going to move forward with this and we've reached out to the prosecution's team here in Las Vegas as we're here. No comment, no call back. So, we'll be here to find out.

[00:27:38]>> I know both of you are going to be on top of the case. Thank you so much for being on my pirate trip. I really do appreciate it. All right, Laura Engel, Sharon McCollum, thank you so much.

[00:27:45]Okay, our special live coverage from Crime Con is going to continue in just a minute. What do we got next? He is the OG FBI profiler and he is here with us in Las Vegas. I'm talking about John Douglas, whose real life work inspired Mind Hunter, The Silence of the Lambs.

[00:28:01]Our conversation, including John's thoughts on the Nancy Guthrie case, that's next.

[00:28:17]All right, we're back now at Crime Con, coming to you live from the Treasure Island Pirate Ship on the Vegas Strip. I know I keep mentioning it. I have to.

[00:28:23]When's the next time I'm going to be hosting a show from a pirate ship? Now, what better place than Crime Con to talk about one of the greatest crime thrill thrillers of all time? Celebrating, by the way, its 35th anniversary this year.

[00:28:34]You know what I'm talking about? Silence of the Lambs.

[00:28:37]Reviewing all the serial killers now in custody for a psycho behavioral profile.

[00:28:44]>> Who's the subject?

[00:28:47]>> The psychiatrist Hannibal Lecter.

[00:28:53]Yeah, that mention of serial killer profiling. The real life FBI profiler whose work inspired that movie right here at Crime Con. No doubt I've heard of him. He's the OG profiler, John Douglas. Now Douglas has worked some of the most famous murder cases. Green River murders, John Ben Ramsey case, most recently the Amanda Knox case. And he has now become part of pop culture, too. Why? his book Mind Hunter. It was adapted into the Netflix series that's based on Douglas's life story and it's starring Jonathan Grath. Now, I caught up with John Douglas here at Crime Con today ahead of a panel that we did. Take a look.

[00:29:27]>> So, I'm here with John Douglas. We're about to go into our panel. I'm so excited to be interviewing. Thank you for having me do this for you. I It's amazing. Um, so I want one of the big questions that I wanted to take away from and a lot of people should know this. What your work is is not rehabilitate. It is part of the investigation, but you are interviewing people after they commit a horrific crime, after they commit a murder. What have you learned about their behavior, how they react after committing just atrocities like this?

[00:29:53]>> Very very uh nonchalant, very very uh normal about the crimes. They don't really Yeah. They're narcissistic. Most of these guys, self-centered, and the hardest part is to get them to relax afterwards in in an environment. Say if we had an environment where it's being filmed like this and the guy was here, it takes about 3 to 5 hours where they start forgetting about forgetting about the camera. And the other thing is uh is about them. What I try to do on the interview is go in with no no paperwork and I memorize the entire case and I I kind of act almost like a psychotherapist. But I but I'm dealing in behavior, pre-offense, post-defense behavior, victim selection, you know, all those uh kind of things. But rarely do they show remorse. If there's any any kind of crime, it's usually that their life is ruined, that they got to spend the rest of their life in prison or get the death penalty. I >> I read that you said you had at one point brought recorders in and then you said that was a big mistake. You don't bring them in anymore. And and and that's big because like you said, you're trying to build that relationship, which did make me wonder, did they ever feel like they had a friendship with you, like a social bond?

[00:30:58]>> Yes. Oh, very much so.

[00:30:59]>> Did you feel I mean, did you ever feel that this same way?

[00:31:02]>> I like with the temper. I really didn't uh I even said I like the guy. I like the guy. He was very personable, very introspective. You learned a lot from him. Not that I would let him out. You still and he may have had a horrific childhood, but he was able to make choices and the choice was to kill. And I'm really big on not no rehabilitation for for these people. You cannot change their thinking. You cannot rehabilitate people who never were habilitated uh to begin with but you do see a trend in the backgrounds you know of them and then based upon their experiences in life will they turn out to be Ted Kazinski the uni bomber or they be a David Burkowitz kind of an assassination style of killing uh this this Rex Yur now up in up in Long Island who by the way has read my books I don't know if you heard about that he's read he's read uh the mine mine hunter book and apparently I just heard They let him look at it again. He's made like like 200 different uh annotates anecdotes in the in the book that this really fits with me. This particular thing doesn't quite fit with me. And uh >> would you want the opportunity to speak then?

[00:32:08]>> Yeah, I may have a very good shot. I may have a really good shot. The BAU they're going to interview him. Uh then his show is going to interview him. Texas crew.

[00:32:16]But it looks like I may have a good check because I I spoke to him and he wants he wants to know why. He want he he wants to know and why he doesn't have these feelings after he kills him. He you know what you say what there's something wrong. Well, you just you just listen to him and and you just try you you take him through this is your life, Rex. You just take him back there. There there has to be something. It has to be a trigger that set him off. And here you got a guy 6'4. He weighs, you know, about 300 lb. You know, bullied. He was a bully and uh you expect this guy was bullied kind of like Ed Keer was the same kind of same kind of deal with him.

[00:32:50]>> I I know we have to walk soon and we'll do but I have to ask you real quick before we go. So we're at Crime Con.

[00:32:55]>> The number one case I get asked about.

[00:32:57]The number one that everybody's focusing on. They just put it in the promo.

[00:33:01]>> I got to get your thoughts on Guthrie. I mean it's one of the most strangest cases I've ever covered. I imagine you're the same. Do you have any thoughts on it from your perspective?

[00:33:08]But the only thing I'm going to say is is with that is the reasons why I wouldn't be doing the the interviews and the reason why and what's wrong with some of the people who are uh spouting off about the case without having the facts of the case because if you don't have the facts of the case, you could be wrong. You're not you're not going to be right on the case. But but when I was turning on television seeing these people one after another, you know, then one came came up recently. Well, there's four possibilities. four possibil I mean you got to hit on one of them you know and I'm just uh yeah it looks like the case was mishandled that's that's the other problem the biggest part of the >> that's that's a problem for us >> as you can see we have a lot to talk about so let's go to our panel John Douglas where we going now >> we love John Douglas thank you to him again for taking the time to talk with us okay up next got something different planned for all you so it's crime con everyone has an opinion about the biggest true crime cases in the country our next guest They don't just talk about the cases. They actually take them. They work them. They win them. So, what we're going to do, we're going to put three of crime's most high-profile headlines on trial, asking a panel of criminal defense attorneys and a true crime reporter one simple question.

[00:34:18]Would you take the case? That's next.

[00:34:35]All right, we're back at Crime Con Las Vegas where thousands of true crime fans have come to talk about the cases they cannot stop thinking about the mysteries, the motives, the pursuit of justice. We got a panel right now of guests who know this world better than most. Three of them are some of the sharpest criminal defense attorneys in the game. We got Mark Geros, Alexander Kazerian, Mark Iglash, and our fourth panelist, Lauren Conlin. Not an attorney, but we love her. Los Angeles magazine contributor reporter who's covered more crime stories than she can count. Tonight we're gonna play this game where I'm going to give you the stories and you tell me would you take the case. Everybody ready? Everybody ready? Okay. We're going to start. First one I want to go through is McKenzie Sharilla. Okay. So, she's the Ohio woman who at just 17 years old was convicted of murder after driving more than 100 miles an hour into a brick wall, killing her boyfriend, his friend as well.

[00:35:21]Prosecutors argue the crash was no accident. that Trola intentionally drove into the building as a way to get out of this what was described as a toxic relationship. They pointed to evidence showing the accelerator was pressed at 100% capacity. They claimed that Trilla drove the same route days earlier. She maintained that she had pots, that she blacked out. It was a bench trial. Judge found her guilty in all charges and she was sentenced to two concurrent terms of 15 years to life in prison. And now there's a new Netflix documentary about it. Mark, we get if this comes into a new trial, would you take the case? So, I'm going to do quick yes or no. Quick explanation. Mark Argular. Mark Mark Ericos.

[00:35:56]>> Yes, I would. I've tried these cases successfully. Uh I think there is a way to try this case successfully. Uh but they rob your soul because there is of all the murder cases you can do, these are the toughest, believe it or not.

[00:36:12]>> How is it?

[00:36:12]>> I He took the words out of my mouth.

[00:36:14]>> You don't have to agree because you guys are doing Well, you know the one case I probably wouldn't take I've got a conflict waiver with her husband. if he kills her that I can represent him.

[00:36:23]>> This took a very macob turn very quickly, but you would take the Sherlock case.

[00:36:27]>> Uh, I would, but I was going to say the same thing. It breaks your heart. It's a horrible case to take. It's a horrible kind of case to take, especially if you have kids because you know that kids do stupid, stupid things and ruin their lives and other people's lives. I mean, I would take it, but it would break my heart.

[00:36:41]>> Mark, would you take it? Would you go with a different defense?

[00:36:43]>> Heavily consider taking it. I wouldn't say outright. Working with her parents may prove to be challenging. working with her may prove to be challenging.

[00:36:52]>> I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[00:36:54]As long as they won't stand in the way of me getting the best outcome for them, I would heavily consider it.

[00:37:00]>> Absolutely. Uh, everybody knows the way I've been covering this case. If they follow Los Angeles magazine, I am not a fan of this girl. I am not a fan of her parents, but there's a lot wrong with this trial. I mean, the fact that there wasn't even an accident reconstruction specialist for the defense blew my mind.

[00:37:16]So, if I'm a lawyer, I might have to take it. I hate to say that.

[00:37:19]>> And look, they also didn't call a uh medical expert to determine that she had >> the most the the biggest problem they waved jury.

[00:37:25]>> Yeah, I'm not doing a bench trial. I haven't doing pen trials and we can talk about that.

[00:37:29]>> Why are you attacking me?

[00:37:31]>> By the way, I disagree. I think the bench trial was the way to go. I think that a jury would have eviscerated her.

[00:37:36]I think that you had a chance of the judge buying this legal argument. It didn't work.

[00:37:41]>> What about the process? We'll have to We'll have to do another Well, I just want to get to that. I got to do a lightning round.

[00:37:49]The David case. David Anthony Burke.

[00:37:51]We've been covering it. Okay. Better known as David. 21-year-old singer accused of murdering 14-year-old Celeste Rivas Hernandez. Accused of dismembering her, hiding the remains in his Tesla. He has pled not guilty. Anybody who's been following the show knows all about it.

[00:38:03]Mark, would you take the case?

[00:38:04]>> I wouldn't. I think he's got a great defense lawyer. I wouldn't have said that.

[00:38:09]>> Okay.

[00:38:10]>> I would not want to take it, but >> the evidence is pretty bad. I think in the beginning it was a very compelling case. Now it's a horrible case, but I I I have a hard time saying no. I really do because I really like defending people against the government and I I like to be the person that is standing there with somebody who everybody hates and I want to challenge that evidence because I believe in the Constitution.

[00:38:35]>> Mark, would you take it? Do you see any holes?

[00:38:37]>> The answer is yes, I would take the case. Again, assuming the checklist is there and I have certain criteria, but it's about due process. It's about making sure that he gets a fair trial.

[00:38:48]That doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to walk. It's going to mean I'm going to do everything in my power to get him the outcome that I want to get for him. But guess what? We don't always win in the traditional sense. I always win because I do everything in my power to get them the outcome that I desire.

[00:39:02]>> Well, we reframe our wins.

[00:39:04]>> That's it.

[00:39:04]>> We a win is a different I can't control the jury. I can't control I can't control I'm a winner. I can control this. You know this case better than anybody.

[00:39:13]>> I do and and everybody is of course entitled to a defense, a fair trial, but we're talking about a child. I'm out.

[00:39:19]So, >> okay, final one. Got to get to it. Alec Murdoch. Okay. Alec Murdoch. We know one of the most infamous murder defendants in America. Convicted of killing his wife Maggie, son, Paul. Uh went to trial. Uh he was convicted, then it was overturned. Uh now we might because of uh you know, Becky Hill, the court clerk. Now he's looking at a new trial.

[00:39:37]I'm curious what his defense attorneys are going to do. Mark Aragos, would you take the case?

[00:39:41]>> In a heartbeat. His current lawyer is Dick Harput. And Dick called me up and said, "Do you want to try this with me?"

[00:39:46]I do it in a heartbeat.

[00:39:47]>> Oh. Cuz you like him so much.

[00:39:49]>> I love Harput. And I think this guy I think Murdoch got in in this sense. I talked to Harput the night that Alec was going with deciding whether he was going to take the stand. That was heart-wrenching. They put him on the stand to have that guy in the stand and have the court clerk go into the jury room and basically put her finger on the scales of justice. Outrageous. I love the case.

[00:40:14]>> What would you do? A little quick defense. I >> I love the evidence in the case for the defense. I think it is a very very interesting case. I think there is so much to argue there. I would love to argue that.

[00:40:24]>> No murder weapons.

[00:40:25]>> True. And and there's one big problem.

[00:40:27]You guys would roll all the tape of me saying how guilty he is and how, you know, the luckiest thing that ever happened to him was that clerk doing a horrible thing.

[00:40:36]>> You're so honest. I love it.

[00:40:38]>> All right.

[00:40:39]>> I mean, I'm I'm going to be the non- lawyer here and just say he seems like such an unlikable defendant. Or he is.

[00:40:44]And also, he seems like an annoying client. So, no.

[00:40:47]>> Interesting. Interesting. Okay. Well, I was wrong.

[00:40:49]>> Annoying. If annoying clients wouldn't I was wrong. You didn't take every case. I said you would take every case. I was wrong. I see I admit I admit things too.

[00:40:58]I admit things too. Mark Aragos, Alexander Kazerian, Mark Iglar, Lauren Con, thank you so much. Thank you everybody for joining us on this special crime cut edition from the ship. I'll see you back in New York on Monday. Have a great one everybody.