Pastor testifies: Tanner Horner was ‘loved’ by church community

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[00:00:00]Who do you have next?

[00:00:02]>> Um, Gary B.

[00:00:05]>> There's a witness. Where is the witness?

[00:00:08]>> He's in the backyard.

[00:00:16]>> There he go.

[00:00:16]>> I got him.

[00:00:36]Good morning. Raise your right hand for me. So we swear our firm testimony given this cause be the truth of truth and nothing but the true self of God.

[00:00:43]>> Yes.

[00:00:44]>> Have a seat right here. First of all, hand me that document that's right there in front of you. Okay. There's a rule of evidence in effect that says you cannot be in court unless you're testifying.

[00:00:53]Once you have testified, don't discuss your testimony with anyone else except the lawyers. Okay.

[00:00:58]>> Okay. Yes.

[00:00:59]>> All right. Mr. Go.

[00:01:01]>> Thank you, honor.

[00:01:04]>> Good morning.

[00:01:04]>> Good morning.

[00:01:05]>> Steve Goal, one of Tanner's attorneys. I don't know if we've met. Um, but I need to make clear, we're just going to call you Gary for today. Is that right?

[00:01:14]>> Um, and were you subpoenaed to be here?

[00:01:17]>> Yes.

[00:01:17]>> And that was by us.

[00:01:19]>> Yes.

[00:01:24]>> How do you know Tanner Horner?

[00:01:26]Uh he was part of our church uh a number of years ago.

[00:01:30]>> And what's your role at the church?

[00:01:32]>> I'm the lead pastor.

[00:01:35]>> Do you remember um about how old he was when he started attending?

[00:01:42]>> I I don't recall exactly what age it was. No.

[00:01:46]>> Okay. What were your impressions of Tanner while he was attending the church?

[00:01:50]>> Uh he was like any other kid. Uh, I'd see him walking up and down the halls. He was part of our I think he started kind of in our our youth ministry from the beginning. I think junior high, maybe somewhere around there. I'm not sure. Uh, so, you know, he was a kid like everyone else.

[00:02:14]We were aware that, you know, he he had a form of autism a little bit.

[00:02:20]And so there were moments we dealt with that, but as far as being um loved by our church family and our our people, he was.

[00:02:32]>> And so you I assume he wasn't or you tell me was he disruptive or anything?

[00:02:37]Is that what you're saying?

[00:02:39]>> No, he wasn't disruptive. There would be times where uh something would happen that was out of the ordinary for him and he would get upset and but he wouldn't take it out on others. He took it out on himself. He would hit himself, you know, just that was kind of what he did.

[00:02:59]>> Now, as the pastor, were you able to have one-on-one conversations with him?

[00:03:04]>> Yeah. anytime you see a kid uh especially as he got into high school that is kind of becomes a loner um as a as a pastor you know even as a as a man you want to try to help someone like that. So we would have conversations and try to just try to speak into his life uh and help give some guidance and direction find out where he was at. Yeah. And did he participate at church?

[00:03:35]>> Yes.

[00:03:36]>> Um did you have programs with that he could be involved in and what would they they be?

[00:03:42]>> Uh so at the time uh one of the in our youth ministry we had what was called it's fine arts. It's a a big uh form of competition for teenagers of all ages from all over uh United States. And we had a stomp team uh that you know has drums and then different kinds of equipment and and so we we had won state and won nationals and Tanner you know he was kind of a loner trying to find his place being a little awkward at times. I don't think he knew where to fit in.

[00:04:26]But when uh he got on that team because he had to try out for that team. It wasn't just you didn't just get on it.

[00:04:32]Uh he made it and I think that gave him a sense of belonging. And then the the uh the senior students around him were strong Christians and um had known him and knew how to work with him and so yeah he became part of that team.

[00:04:50]>> So did that involve music?

[00:04:52]>> Yes it was music. Yes. And and did Tanner show any inclination towards music?

[00:04:57]>> Yeah, Tanner loved music. Yeah.

[00:05:03]>> Now, was there a point in these competitions where something went wrong and got him a little frazzled?

[00:05:10]>> Yeah. So, we uh won state and we made it to the national competition.

[00:05:16]Uh these competitions there's 12 to 15,000 students. Not all of them are competing but it's it's a large group uh ranging from doing vocal solos. I mean a number of but for our team uh they had practiced and it was time to go in. We went in and I can't remember if he forgot his stick or his stick broke. I can't you broke it.

[00:05:45]Yeah. U he broke his stick. So the routine had started and you got these judges sitting in front of you. It's pretty intimidating.

[00:05:54]>> Uh but they had prepared and his stick broke and when it did it just it put him into a panic. Uh I think a lot of it due to uh his autism a little bit but also just letting the team down. But uh the senior ones around him I think threw him a stick and then one of them used their hands. So they made it through the routine.

[00:06:23]But but for some reason that really impacted Tanner and uh soon as it was over he ran out of the room and u you could tell he was upset and angry, but he wasn't violent toward anybody. He was just really upset with himself.

[00:06:40]Yeah. But that's something that could have happened to anyone, right?

[00:06:44]>> Yeah.

[00:06:46]When you're in high pressure competition like that and you've won nationals before, Yeah. the pressure can get to anybody. But >> now, well, I mean, in terms of like the stick breaking on stage, >> the stick has no control over that, >> right?

[00:07:00]>> And he didn't see it that way.

[00:07:03]>> No. No. it for him. It was, you know, since it was not in the normal routine for him, that was he didn't know how to deal with that.

[00:07:15]>> Now, you talked about this this team was kind of competitive, you had to try out to get on. Did it require a lot of practice?

[00:07:21]>> Yes, sir. Lots of practice.

[00:07:23]>> So, they were there. How about how often during the week? Yeah.

[00:07:27]>> Um they would it depended on how in intense the competition was and then on the group. But that particular year we had some very strong drummers and musicians. So I would imagine they practice two to three times a week. Um that would probably be the average. And >> how long have you been at your church?

[00:07:52]>> 29 years. Wow.

[00:07:55]Do you remember who attended church with Tanner?

[00:07:58]>> Uh, it was Bill and Jackie Harbison.

[00:08:01]>> And who were they?

[00:08:02]>> His grandparents.

[00:08:06]>> Do you know who was raising Tanner when he was attending your church?

[00:08:10]>> Bill and Jackie. Yes.

[00:08:12]>> And what were your impressions of them?

[00:08:15]>> Bill and Jackie were really good people.

[00:08:18]Um, when they were attending our church.

[00:08:21]Yeah, they were very good people. Um we yeah they they were very connected in our our church family loved by our church family and just good solid people.

[00:08:38]>> Now just from your knowledge did you know why they were raising him?

[00:08:43]>> Yes. Tanner's mom was uh pretty much not present. She was in and out of his life. A lot of drugs. Uh, and she'd been in I think she'd been in prison or jail a few times. So, I didn't didn't get it to interact with Melissa very much, but was aware of her history.

[00:09:02]Yes.

[00:09:02]>> But you did meet her at some point.

[00:09:04]>> Yes.

[00:09:05]>> Just did did she not attend regularly like Jack and >> Tanner? No. If she was out of jail or would happen to be home, she might come on a Easter something like that, but there was no regular attendance and no no connection at all.

[00:09:20]Um, did any did Tanner sibling attend too?

[00:09:23]>> Yes.

[00:09:24]>> And so you remember him?

[00:09:27]>> Yes. Vaguely. I I didn't know him as well, but yes.

[00:09:30]>> Okay.

[00:09:33]>> Was there some point where um Bill's kind of attitude toward the church changed?

[00:09:40]>> Yes. So, Bill was up to that point, uh, he was a very loving, uh, we would laugh. I mean, he was just a really good guy. Uh, the VA changed his medication and he became a different person. Like, it was noticeable. He became angry, agitated when he choked to church. It just wasn't the same. Bill tried to have conversations with him. He didn't want to have a conversation. Uh and so he just behaved in in a way that wasn't wasn't normal. Yeah.

[00:10:22]>> Um was there a specific incident that kind of ended that relationship?

[00:10:28]>> Yeah. So we tried to talk to him, but there was a he started bringing a bag to church. just you carry a bag and at some point, you know, you have to figure out what what's in the bag. So, our our board uh at that time our security team was a little bit different and they're a lot more intense now, but they finally had to talk to Bill and and he had been the sack had knives and stuff in it and to him, I don't know why he thought it was just normal. So when he was told he couldn't bring those to church anymore, uh that just he was already upset, but that that kind of sat on the edge.

[00:11:14]>> Did um Jackie stop attending when Bill did?

[00:11:18]>> You know, I I can't answer that. I >> Yeah.

[00:11:26]>> Well, let me put it another way. Did Did you have some interaction with Jackie after Bill coming.

[00:11:31]>> Yeah, Jackie would reach out uh right after that and and she understood something was wrong with Bill and but I don't remember how long she attended afterwards. Uh but we we'd have conversations trying to just help her deal with Bill as well as you know Tanner and his brother. Now, you said we've been talking about kind of junior high and high school for Tanner.

[00:12:00]>> Yes.

[00:12:00]>> Um, when did you last have contact with Tanner?

[00:12:05]>> Um, my last contact was after the incident that we're dealing with now, but uh when he got into high school.

[00:12:15]>> Yeah.

[00:12:16]>> Uh, and he was able to drive on his own.

[00:12:20]Uh, he didn't come all the time. He kind of had his own life and was developing that. But he would still come off and on. I think uh after graduation or right before graduation, we present a Bible to every senior and he was there the day we presented his Bible and that was a big moment. So I think as a pastor that was probably one of my last encounters with him that that I can remember. Yeah.

[00:12:53]And then you said you had an encounter with him after the incident.

[00:12:56]>> Yes, sir.

[00:12:57]>> Did he initiate that or you or how did that happen?

[00:13:01]>> I believe he initiated it. So I I received a call that he wanted to to visit with me. And so, you know, as a pastor, we don't always get to do the easy things we do while we're called to do.

[00:13:19]So, I met with him uh and just wanted to make sure he was okay and wanted to make sure he understood, you know, really what had happened.

[00:13:33]>> Mhm.

[00:13:33]>> Um because with with uh his autism and I don't know what range of the spectrum he was, but connecting things together was sometimes you had to really help him connect that.

[00:13:49]So I just felt like, all right, number one, I need to go pray with him, and then two, I want to make sure he understands fully what what went on. So we went and we had a good conversation, I felt >> um and talked about the reality that, you know, as far as his physical life, it was never going to be the same.

[00:14:15]Um, and so the only way that he was going to get through that is if his spiritual life, if if if he, you know, really uh really turned his life over to God, he was going to need God's strength to get through all that he was going to face.

[00:14:32]But his life was never going to be the same physically, but spiritually, I wanted to make sure that his that, you know, his heart, his soul was taken care of.

[00:14:45]>> And you said you did have the chance to pray with him.

[00:14:48]>> Yes. So, I talked to him. We prayed the sinner's prayer together, and then I believe he requested a specific Bible.

[00:14:57]Uh, I can't recall if if that Bible was actually delivered. I I I don't remember. I want to say we did, but I I can't remember.

[00:15:09]>> I understand. And that has that that's been a little bit of time you went in.

[00:15:14]>> Yeah.

[00:15:27]Yeah, I'll pass examination.

[00:15:33]>> Sir, I want to uh talk to you just a little bit about a couple of things. Um, you testified initially that uh Mr. Her was able to participate in this uh youth group, >> right?

[00:15:45]>> In this Yeah.

[00:15:46]>> And he was uh able to go to practice uh several times a week.

[00:15:51]>> Yes. and able to work within that group to perform for a common goal.

[00:15:56]>> Yes.

[00:15:57]>> Um and in fact did well enough that uh they were able to place and and do and do well on a big stage.

[00:16:04]>> Yes, sir.

[00:16:05]>> And he was and and how long does it take to to do that? Is that a couple of year process that you have to get kind of together and practice? You have to work with all these people.

[00:16:15]>> Well, each year uh there's a competition every two years. It's it's national. Uh it's national every year, but every two years it's it's really big because it's it's a convention where all the pastors from the United States as well as uh youth groups from all over the country meet, >> right?

[00:16:37]>> But so each year the team would be different according to it graduated who would come in um I don't remember how many years Tanner was on the team. Um but yeah, within within that structure, he was able to function within that that team framework, >> right? To be able to come to practice and work work with other people.

[00:16:59]>> Yes.

[00:16:59]>> Uh take criticism on whether or not he's doing correct or not.

[00:17:02]>> Yes.

[00:17:03]>> And he was able to do that um throughout the time that you remember.

[00:17:08]>> Yes. If there would have been an incident uh that we felt would have been uh unsafe for then Tanner would have never been allowed to go. Yes.

[00:17:19]>> Right. And you didn't you didn't feel like that?

[00:17:21]>> No.

[00:17:22]And um it sounds like that um you guys at the at the church um were ready, able, and willing to provide Tanner and his family with whatever support they needed.

[00:17:41]>> We did our best. Yes. To help Bill and Jackie and >> um they're raising their grandkid, right?

[00:17:48]>> Yes. And uh I'm I'm going to speculate here a little bit, but that's probably not the only uh grandkid you've seen in the lately raised by grandparents. Nope.

[00:17:58]>> Happens quite often, unfortunately.

[00:18:00]>> It's unfortunate, but uh uh you're telling us today that he did have that support network with his grandparents.

[00:18:08]>> Yes. Bill and Jackie. Yes.

[00:18:10]>> And he also had it at his church family as well.

[00:18:13]>> Yes.

[00:18:14]Now, you talked a little bit about the last time that um that you saw the defendant Tener, correct?

[00:18:24]>> Yes.

[00:18:24]>> Do you remember what day that was?

[00:18:26]>> No, sir. I don't remember the day.

[00:18:30]>> And you said that u you talked to him and I think that you said um you wanted to understand what had happened.

[00:18:38]>> No, I I wanted to make sure he understood the severity of what happened. Okay.

[00:18:44]Well, let me just ask you in that conversation, what did he tell you happened in this case, >> sir? I I have no I can't remember. I I honestly don't remember.

[00:18:56]>> You don't remember him telling you what he did to Athena Strand?

[00:19:00]>> No, sir.

[00:19:01]>> Did you ask him?

[00:19:03]>> I don't believe I specifically asked that. No. I just I knew what happened and so I just want to make sure he understood what happened.

[00:19:16]>> Let me ask you this. You said you knew what happened.

[00:19:19]>> Yes.

[00:19:20]>> What did you know what happened? All I knew at that time was what had been out and that is he was driving for I think FedEx and had hit Athena, panicked and then did what he did. That's all I knew.

[00:19:37]>> Okay. And um that's what you discussed with him about what you knew had happened.

[00:19:44]>> Yeah. I I don't sorry I don't know if we got into specifics. I really don't. I just wanted him to understand the severity like look Tanner this is you know this is real and this is not going away and I wanted him to understand that.

[00:20:09]Do you know now that that's not what happened?

[00:20:13]>> Yes sir.

[00:20:23]you know, now that it's something dramatically different than that.

[00:20:27]>> Yes. I I haven't watched the case.

[00:20:30]>> Um when you talked to him initially, the last time you talked to him, you knew that initial version and that's what you were going in on him to talk about.

[00:20:41]>> Yes.

[00:20:42]>> But he didn't tell you the truth about what happened.

[00:20:47]No sir, I don't again I don't think we actually discussed the specifics. Again, my goal was simply to I wanted to look in his eyes and are you aware of the severity? Do do you do you fully grasp uh what you did? But we didn't talk about the specifics as I recall. I was >> based on his version of it.

[00:21:09]>> Yeah. Based Yeah.

[00:21:10]>> He knew what he did.

[00:21:11]>> Yes.

[00:21:12]>> Well, now you know that version is not true.

[00:21:15]Yes, sir.

[00:21:16]>> So, he lied to you.

[00:21:18]>> Yes, sir. Pastor Redirect.

[00:21:38]>> Now, at that time, you knew that Tanner had caused murder people. Yes.

[00:21:45]>> So, your conversation was based on that premise?

[00:21:48]>> Yes.

[00:21:50]>> And you're saying you did or did not discuss detail?

[00:21:53]>> I don't believe we discussed details. I don't My goal was just Tanner, do you understand the severity? Do you do you get uh what happened and that this is going to be life-changing and you can't undo that? And uh so I believe That was our conversation >> and that stemmed from the notion that that's a horrible >> Yes.

[00:22:21]>> sin crime. Yes. Murder.

[00:22:23]>> Yeah. He was aware. I knew. So I again I don't think the specifics was the goal.

[00:22:29]I It was just making him just aware that this was going to be lifealtering and it wasn't consequences.

[00:22:39]They're not going away.

[00:22:40]>> And you still counsel him?

[00:22:44]Yes.

[00:22:44]>> And you still prayed with him?

[00:22:46]>> Yes.

[00:22:46]>> And you still help him get the Bible?

[00:22:48]>> Yes.

[00:22:49]>> Yes.

[00:22:51]>> Mr. St. >> No further on.

[00:22:53]>> May this witness be finally excused?

[00:22:55]>> Yes, sir. Thank you.

[00:22:57]>> Thank you, sir.

[00:23:01]>> Let me stretch my legs. Okay. See you about 10:30.