Book Discussion on "Islam, Authoritarianism and Underdevelopment" authored by Ahmet T. Kuru

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[00:00:00]7 7 a.m.

[00:00:01]>> Ah, so good evening for us.

[00:00:05]>> Good morning for you. [clears throat] >> Live a [clears throat] uh hello asalam alaikum adab and good evening to uh everyone. And uh uh now we have uh professor Amati Kuru uh he's joining us uh from San Diego State University. The author of the book uh is with us. Uh uh he was there in the release of uh Hindi edition of his book uh uh last year during the world uh book fair in New Delhi. And uh uh now we have Dr. Shantanu Mukharji sir also is one of the director of Husuro Foundation and he is uh security analysist and former uh NSA national security advisor to prime minister of Maicius and uh we have with us uh professor uh Muhammad Utbmudin chairperson center of Arabic and African studies Javahal al- Neu University uh and we have professor Mujibur Rahman a senior professor of center of Arabic and African studies, Javahal Nehu University, New Delhi. Uh we have with us Dr. Vis Mazari. He is a renowned uh author and uh Islamic scholar, assistant professor from uh Hamar, the University Department of Islamic Studies, New Delhi. And we have with us uh uh a young uh uh research scholar uh Mr. Habib Bilal. Uh he is a doctoral fellow from uh Baba Gulam Sha Basha University Rajori uh Kashmir. And we have with us professor Rizbanu Rahman Sab. He is also senior professor uh from center of Arabic and African Studies Javahal Neu University. And this program is going to be organized uh in collaboration with center of Arabic and African studies Javahal lalu university one of the prominent uh institute of uh India and perhaps uh in the world uh and professor Koro is uh uh you know we have uh uh renowned Islamic scholars, authors and researchers and we have good viewers uh those are from mothers and universities both.

[00:02:51]So, professor, chairperson of center of Arabic and African studies university collaboration online discussion.

[00:03:21]special request, Professor Kuru Kasad and he was so happy and he was so kind uh kindly agreed to accept uh our request uh uh to be with us uh uh at this evening.

[00:03:39]So on behalf of Foundation, I welcome uh one and all uh in this uh meaningful discussion.

[00:03:58]Alami or Udu translation Islam authoritarianism and under development uh uh and historical and uh compression uh a global and historical compression just Professor few back near about 14 languages worldwide translate including French translation last year award 200 above more than 200 reviews worldwide in 24 languages.

[00:04:55]After the 10 years of deep research and hard work of professor Puru this book Islamic history basically professor Kuru is the professor of uh uh political sciences in San Diego State University is my political sciences dimensions.

[00:05:33]Excuse me. Screen.

[00:05:39]So is political dimension political sciences dimensions history golden period scientific Islamic worldwide 11th century [clears throat] Authoritarianism, [clears throat] heritage, scientific wisdom, online join.

[00:07:07]Foundation Facebook page foundation foundation YouTube foundation handle contact number or postal addresses comiopially copy 600 or 440 pages compliment.

[00:08:03]view.

[00:08:13]Let's begin with the welcome address of professor Muhammadin. He is a very good uh uh not only teacher and researcher and he is a very good uh translator also. He translated several books from uh Egyptian literature uh from Egyptian writers uh to Indian languages Udu and Hindi and he is a product of Nadwat Lama also and then he studies in Jamalia Islamia and Javal al- Nehu University and he is the chairperson of center of Arabic and African studies. So everyone is free to speak either in Hindustani language mix in Udu, Hindi and Angrai or Angrai because uh professor Kuru is very smart and he has a special arrangement. he can understand even uh our udu discussion also through the AI because he uh I saw when we release his book uh uh he was very rightly to understand each and every talk about the book uh we did in our Indian languages even so I welcome uh professor Mohammed collaboration discussion welcome is start now over to you.

[00:09:42]>> Yeah, thank you. Thank you Dr. Hafis Raman Sahab for giving me this opportunity. [clears throat] A very good evening everyone.

[00:09:52]Distinguished panelists, respected faculty members, dear students and valued part participants on behalf of the center of Arabic and African studies, Javar Lu University and Kosu Foundation, New Delhi. It gives me immense pleasure to welcome you all to today's book discussion program organized by Tusu Foundation in collaboration with center of Arabic and African studies Javalar Nehu University New Delhi.

[00:10:33]Your presence has truly added grace and significance to this academic and literary gathering.

[00:10:42]Ladies and gentlemen, books are not merely collections of pages. They are carriers of ideas, experiences, history, and wisdom. A book discussion provides us with an opportunity not only to understand the text itself but also to exchange perspectives, encourage critical thinking and strengthen our intellectual culture. In an age dominated by fast information and digital distraction, gatherings like this remind us of the enduring value of reading, reflection, and meaningful dialogue.

[00:11:31]Today's event is especially important because it brings together scholars, teachers, authors, students, and readers on one platform to engage with knowledge in a thoughtful and constructive manner.

[00:11:49]Such discussions enrich our academic environment and inspire young minds to cultivate the habit of reading and analytical thinking.

[00:12:02]On this occasion, I congratulate Professor Kuru for writing such an important book and I also would like to express my heartfelt gratitude to our esteemed collaborator Posu Foundation for their in inc uh for for their generous cooperation and support in organizing this program jointly with our center. Its academic partnership, encouragement and commitment have played a vital role in making this event possible. Collaborative efforts like these strengthen institutional relationships and create value valuable opportunities for intellectual and cultural exchange.

[00:12:55]We sincerely appreciate its contribution and look forward to continuation such meaningful collaboration with Hosu Foundation in future as well.

[00:13:09]I would like to extend my warm welcome to our respected speakers and panelists who have kindly agreed to share their insights and views and reflections on the book under discussion. Your expertise and thoughtful observations will undoubtedly make this session enlightening and inspiring for all of us.

[00:13:36]A special word of appreciation goes to the organizing team especially Dr. Dr. Hafis Rahman who has been a strong source of link between center of Arabic and African studies and husu foundation and our faculty members, researchers, researcher scholars and students whose hard work and dedication have ensured the the successful arrangement of this program. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope this discussion will encourage all of us to think deeply, ask questions freely and engage in healthy academic conversation.

[00:14:24]Let us use this opport discuss a book but also to celebrate the culture of learning, dialogue, discussion and mutual respect. Once again I welcome all of you and thank you for joining us today. I wish the program great success and hope hope you very much Jahind.

[00:14:55]>> Thank you so much Professor Putin Sa for your uh insightful uh remark about the book and about this discussion. Uh now we have with us uh uh the gentleman none other than the author of the book and uh uh uh uh he's a great author. He's a very uh good orator speaker and uh we were pleased to have him uh uh with us last year during the uh release of uh Hindi edition in uh world book fair and uh since we are continue uh uh continue in discussion and in coordination with him and uh he is guiding and he supporting in term of uh uh literature So uh professor uh Emma Kuru is a very prominent uh personality who born uh uh and grown up in Turkey and uh he is the uh professor in uh center of political studies in San Diego State University and he is also uh [snorts] uh director of the center for Islamic and Arab studies.

[00:16:16]uh professor Kuru has uh won several award for his uh book and for uh other books and his uh writings also. Uh and he critically examined the uh global and historical uh compression in his book Islam authoritarianism and under development. uh this book is really eyeopener and so insightful for the uh researchers for the scholars and for the students of especially Islamic studies and also the uh political uh studies as well. So now we are fortunate to have professor uh kuru with us and he is kindly agreed even it's early morning in US but his uh woke up early and join us.

[00:17:11]So most welcome and now over to you professor amatiguru your your voice he understand >> right now.

[00:17:46]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:17:47]>> Good.

[00:17:47]>> Yes.

[00:17:48]>> Alhamdulillah. [clears throat] >> Thank you Dr. Rahman Salam allayikum ma'am. Hi to everybody. Thanks for being with us in this panel and organizing. I am very honored and pleased to have another address. Two great friends in India and about a year ago I was in Delhi book fair met people and we had a very good event and discussion.

[00:18:14]So I will keep it short and I will also have to leave because I'm making an exam at 8:00 a.m. Now it is 7:25 and for this early meeting I'm also thankful to my wife because every morning I am driving the kids to school and this morning she has to drive because I came here to participate with you which is better for me.

[00:18:39]>> So thank you.

[00:18:40]>> This book has just been translated into Turkey.

[00:18:44]And there people question me saying that at a time where American >> the the voice is fine right?

[00:18:55]>> Okay. So the question in the US in Turkey elsewhere people ask to me at a time when United States and Israel are bombing Middle Eastern countries why are you questioning Muslim societies? And I have two answers to them. Maybe I should start with that too. First of all, I'm writing a new book uh about Donald Trump, populism, religion, clergy, state alliance including some other cases. So that's why uh I am not arguing that Muslim societies has a particular problem especially on the state lines.

[00:19:36]Instead, it's a worldwide global problem.

[00:19:40]I've wrote about the Muslim societies.

[00:19:43]Now I'm writing about United States, France, Israel, other societies.

[00:19:48]How populism, religion, nationalism can come together to establish an authoritarian system which eventually lead to underdevelopment because my argument is that in both Muslim and non-Muslim societies, separation between four classes are very important. And these four classes are state, religious authority, clergy, amma, mola, you name them or the Catholic and Protestant and Jewish authorities.

[00:20:24]Then the economic class, we call them bourgeoisi, corporations, business people. And the intellectual class, we are now the professors, center leaders, journalists, intellectuals.

[00:20:39]If there is an autonomy and separation between the two, then the society is likely to be more just, less corrupt, more dynamic.

[00:20:52]In Delhi, a year ago when I gave this presentation and emphasize my argument that there should be a separation between religious, political, economic and academic authorities and spheres.

[00:21:06]I give the example of Donald Trump and Elon Musk and say the two come together which is bad for American economy and politics they should be separated then an Indian newspaper nicely say how is state alliance is linked to Donald Trump and Elon Musk that's the professor gave a talk about so that's one thing I want to emphasize there is nothing particularly wrong with Muslim societies blaming Islam all Muslim societies for violence, authoritarianism, the development is wrong. We call it essentialism, orientalism or Islamophobia in America, which was after 911 was very influential unfortunately in America. I'm hearing some voices.

[00:21:55]Everything okay?

[00:21:59]>> Okay.

[00:22:01]I go okay. Maybe someone is uh someone opened his uh live maybe it's better listening.

[00:22:11]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:22:12]>> So now >> so please mute your >> everyone can mute uh his mic.

[00:22:18]>> The first thing I want to emphasize this one that there is nothing that's called Muslim exceptionalism. Every religion can be interpreted in a way it is authoritarian or more democratic pro-development or not. Another thing I want to emphasize is that this critique is mostly about majorities because in Turkey, in Pakistan, in Egypt, elsewhere, Muslim majority societies, they have the problem of authoritarianism and underdevelopment similar to as I said other countries on earth. And then this problem is very interesting because Muslims had a golden age as Dr. Rahman also briefly mentioned in the introduction. Muslims had a golden age from 8 to 12 centuries in terms of science and philosophy. How come they end up with less developed, less democratic than many other countries on earth today? And when I deal with this problem, it's mostly as I said about majority Muslim societies like Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia. When it comes to minorities, this argument and my book should not be used to blame Muslims because I am a minority in America as a Muslim and I don't want to be blamed because of my identity as if I am linked to authoritarianism and underdevelopment.

[00:23:52]No, it has nothing to do like that.

[00:23:54]Minorities should be protected everywhere. Minorities everywhere either Muslim minorities in non-Muslim countries or Christian Jewish zorastrian other minorities in Muslim majority countries should be given full citizenship.

[00:24:10]Everything should be equal citizenship based. So as a minority in America I made my contributions and I should be given in exchange full citizenship right without discriminating with my religion.

[00:24:25]So after emphasizing these two things that there is nothing exception about Islam and we should not use nobody should use my book to criticize minorities. Now very briefly what is the puzzle the research question it is about the comparison of how Muslims establish a golden age and why they are no longer that productive today. What was the golden age? It was a time of philosophical and economic productivity.

[00:24:58]Economically today many institutions in European system or global system they are based on Arab Muslim merchants. For example, the check we use in banking transactions is based on Persian word check or in science. Most of the word in English starting a l coming from Arabic like algorithm algebra and camera we use now for this event is first produced by an Arab in a dark room camera obscura the numbers Muslim learn from India then they develop and taught to Europeans that's why they are now called Indo-Arabic numbers philosophy Aristotleian and Platonic philosophy were very much understood and explained by Arab philosophers. Then Europeans recovered Aristotalian philosophy after the 12th century by the translations of Iben Rush, Iben Cena, Farabi. All of them were great scholars and they were together with great ulama like Ibuhanifa which was the founder of the Hanfi school where I was grow up in Turkey the mostly Hanfi and also some Shafi uh people there in Turkey uh Imam Malik, Imam Shavei, Ahmed bin Hal or Shia imams like Jaffir.

[00:26:35]These people in the 7 8 9 10 centuries they were together with philosophers and polymats and they said not to receive money from the government and certain separation between the ama and the state make philosophical and economic dynamism very much vibrant in Muslim societies.

[00:27:01]Instead of receiving money from government, they receive money from commerce. They were either traders like Abu Hanifa was a milk silk merchant or Ahmed bin Hambal work in textile factory or their families were merchant families and this amma saying no to public government money and positions were the majority. We have number of about 4,000 from 8 to mid1th century only 9% except to be like Abu Yu a student of Abu Hanifh but he was a minority the majority 91% were mostly linked to commerce say no to government when government try to use them to justify oppression justify corruption and they paid the price. We know the anecdot of Imam Bhari was put in exile because he didn't serve the government.

[00:28:05]Im Ahmed bin Hal, Abu Hanifh, they were all charged with certain punishments because of their principal distance. But their principal distance give the idea that Islam should be about morality, ethics and against corruption and oppression. But this change after the 11th century for various reasons I analyze in the book economic transformations political rise of nomadic Turkish warriors my ancestors seruks Ottomans they made more emphasis on military rather than economy. Economy became more state control militarybased merchant class was marginalized. Then started to get money from the government and great scholars like Imam Gazali or later on Iben Tia interpret Islam state relations in a more uh closer in a much closer way and they refer to two things. One is a sassani maxim a king of Iran Ardashir 300 years before prophet Muhammad said religion and state are twins religion is the foundation state is the guardian that without foundation collapses that without guardian guardian perishes although this h was a pre-Islamic proverb nothing to do with Islam after the 11 12th centuries is when the need to justify their partnership with the government they use this Iranian maxim as if it is a hadith of the prophet which is not. Another interpretation was Ibia in the 13th century Egypt and Damascus. He said the phrase in the Quran basically asking Muslims to obey the those who have authority and knowledge and expertise means omra and means state and basically amma state alliance and since that time Muslim were preaching dictated that it's an Islamic order to obey state but When we analyze Islam, Islamic history, we see there's no such thing.

[00:30:34]Yes, the prophetisam was both a religious and political leader, but he is an exception because he was receiving according to Muslim belief receiving wahi revelation from God. There is no one among us today with such a religious authority. No one is getting revelation. That's why his example cannot be repeated.

[00:30:58]400 years, 500 years, the main Ulma leaders like Abu Hanifh refused to obey the state and then this amate partnership emerge after the 11 12th centuries became more consolidated to a lesser extent in the Mughal Empire stronger extent Sunni virgin in Safavi sorry Shia version in Safavi Sunni version Ottoman Empire that's how Muslims started to become colonized. So in this regard colonization is a problem but it is mostly the effect rather than the cause because once Muslim stop appreciating intellectuals and economic class stop being dynamic philosophically and economically they became weaker when Europeans get stronger by Renaissance Reformation, printing revolution, enlightenment, scientific revolution, industrial revolution.

[00:32:00]They use three Chinese instruments, printing press, nautical compass and gunpowder. The Muslim empires, Mugal, Ottoman, and Safabi, they only use gunpowder. They didn't get printing press. The first Muslim printing press was established in Istanul 300 years after Europeans.

[00:32:22]This is unacceptable. What is the result? The result is that once Muslims had great libraries, hundreds of thousands of books, some say millions in Cairo, Cortuba, Ba, Damascus.

[00:32:36]Later on, after Europeans established printing presses, they established great libraries and Muslims had low literacy rate, less books, less intellectual life. and Ulamas state alliance prohibited printing press in Istanul when it was first o opened they say you can only print non-religious books and Turks had to wait the republic of 1924 to have a single copy of the translation of the Quran into Turkish with a printing press but early Muslims let me conclude by repeating this early Muslims were much more open-minded. Ibu Hanifh said you can use non-Arabic language even in prayer if the some say you don't know Arabic others say no you can use your language because the meaning important and m there was agreement that translation between the lines was possible today in museums we have 10 11 12th century translation of the Quran in Turkish and Persian but later on it became a taboo So what is the lesson for today? Because yes I am a director of center Islamic Arabic studies but also political scientists. Today the young generation in Iran in Turkey many are leaving Islam. They are became becoming deists if not atheist. They are becoming less practical observing Muslim. Why? because they see an incompatibility between what is Islam, Sharia, Islamic law and everything and the modern life. The gap was obvious even at the time of ShhatiB 15th century and scholar who said I'm emphasizing makas the Sharia the high objectives of Islamic law because the old interpretation of Islamic law are not answering our question today. So if Shhatibbe said in the 15th century what about 21st century 21st century India America Turkey. So my book suggests that we need an open dialogue should not impose us apostasy blasphemy laws restrictions with partnership with the state. Bulma should not discriminate and marginalize intellectuals and state should not marginalize bourgeoisian business class. The separation between the four will be a new time both for Muslim minority and Muslim majorities to have a vibrant economy, vibrant intellectual life. And let me conclude by saying that I'm not imposing a western agenda here.

[00:35:32]Yes, I teach in the United States. I've been here for quarter of century. But most of my sources when you look at the beautiful translation Dr. Raman and Husra foundation achieve in both Hindi and Udu. You see that my sources are Islamic historian Arabic sources referring to Abuhanif referring to Iben Iban Kardun and the problem of stagnation is very much repeated again and again in Kaldun's or Khalifi the greatest Ottoman intellectuals and historian he said that we are in decline or meduses are excluding philosophy and science We cannot catch up with Europe if we keep that way. So in this regard, it's really a call to rethink Islamic history. Muslim may have a renaissance, a rethinking of economy by looking their own history from a different angle. This is not westernization or imitating western model. No, it is a truly authentic Islamic goal to have an open society, collaboration with non-Muslims, learning from them, teaching them and appreciating intellectuals and the bourgeoa class. So this call resonate in many countries. Next month I'm going to Brazil.

[00:37:03]A friend asked me where did you find Muslims in Brazil to translate the book.

[00:37:08]I say no one in Brazil translating my book, editing, organizing talk is Muslim.

[00:37:16]But they are non-Muslims who are understanding the importance of Islam, the importance of Islamic history, how Islam was a great civilization and they are trying to learn from this discussion. That's why this book gets an attention from both Muslim and non-Muslim audiences and I'm happy to have this discussion here in India online and thank you for organizing.

[00:37:46]Thank you very much indeed uh professor Kuru for your uh insightful uh uh address about the book and uh it's always uh great to have you and uh uh hear from you or uh learn about you and your writings and we are continue in touch with each others and uh uh on behalf of Hosuru Foundation and behalf of center of Arabic and African studies JNU uh those are our collaborator. So uh we are so thankful uh to you for your uh valuable uh time professor Kuru. Uh now I would like to request uh uh on a spontaneous remark after professor Kuru uh to my uh director honorable director of the Kosro Foundation uh Dr. Shantanu Mukharji sir. Uh so uh sir now over to you.

[00:38:49]>> Uh thank you so much. I'm leaving in five minutes. I just >> I maybe listen few minutes then I leave.

[00:38:58]Many thanks.

[00:38:59]>> Thank you.

[00:38:59]>> Thank you very much Dr. Raman. I am indeed grateful to Kuzro Foundation as well as JNU's Center for Arabic and African Studies for hosting this and most importantly to include me into this very crucial and very significant discussion for which I remain indebted to all of you. Having heard Dr. Kuru whom I had met in January 2024.

[00:39:29]I was educated to a very large degree [clears throat] and being a non-Muslim not from the religious point of view and a non-scolar like you all I am highly benefited in the presence of you and your utterances.

[00:39:49]Whatever Dr. Guru spoke just now every bit is absolutely worth comprehending and it is very relevant today.

[00:40:01]I did not have the original but I I read the book very carefully and very briefly because I wouldn't like to take away others time and as Dr. Kuru himself I mean I was very confused whether he's a historian whether he's a political scientist whether he's a theologist the book is so comprehensive and I would recommend all the viewers here to get it from Guzro Foundation read it because it is very timely and very relevant and it is translated into two languages and very recently I saw Dr. Kuru's one of the books being translated into Portuguese also. So we can know how full of wealth this book is. This is primarily as he says a book of political science not history. It analyzes contemporary problems and explores history to understand their origins.

[00:41:04]That is why it begins with chapters on contemporary issues and then moves to historical chapter. Now you see Dr. Puruin is a speech also said about 911 and all. So it is lot of history into it lot of politics into it. I mean the political state craft and what is the alienation of between the was and the state and everything very comprehensively dealt and addressed and most of the scholars would understand I'll feel out of place and he has used Arabic names also to make it very uh very readable I would say very readable and then few of the things uh in the book which are very this thing which I would like to say and I endorse it as a uh as a member of the general public not as a scholar because I feel very out of place in the presence of the galaxy of intellectuals who are present here. Islam is not responsible for Muslims problem but certain quylamic theories are. The author says certain posy Islamic theories are throughout this book.

[00:42:25]Professor Kuru has demonstrated that the theory and practice of the MMA state alliance thema state alliance which was inspired by the Cassenian notion of religion state brotherhood has been a source of Muslims multiple crisis. Now there's so much of reasoning given here, so rationale and it is very convincing sir. I hope the author is present now.

[00:42:55]He hasn't left. Today Muslims need new perspectives on politics and government.

[00:43:02]This is a very good tip. The security the securities in the 20th century and the reformist predecessors in the 19th century accepted this necessity. Now see how beautifully he has woven political science and history into it. He talks about the 11th century Islam in this book where I noticed the advancement of the technology about science and everything and which is absolutely it's a treasure of ideas. I'm sure you will agree and because I I I did not struggle to read it was very easy. The language is good. The and the flow is very good.

[00:43:44]And for a common man like me, my background is not academics as you all know. But I found that this is absolutely flowing like music, flowing like absolutely that you understand the religion and which is not my mother religion still. I got very gripped into it. got very magnetically attracted towards Shin and Edit and that is why whatever I remember and my own notes I'm telling and he further the author says the Islamic actors by contrast by contrast what he means have largely continued to expect solutions from political theories 1,00 to5 1500 AD I would say by perceiving them as based on Islam's sacred and timeless principles. Now don't miss I I I stress this point whatever the author however he challenges this view is historically inaccurate. It requires a bold author like Dr. Guru to delve so deep into it and come out with his thoughts.

[00:45:05]Guru has further analyzed the views of you would all know I would not know till I read it. Mawardi Gazali and Taia authors of the most influential books on the theory of the caliphate and Sharia politics which is very relevant and it is contested also at times. More than two centuries later made further compromises from the ideal one-man rule by prescribing joint governors by the rulers and the basically I wouldn't like to go on and on and on the book is uh because I'm addressing this not only to the panel not only to the discussions but also to the public at large the viewers here who are listening or the Facebook live or on any other channels that it would be of interest if I at this age with no academic background on religion or politics found it interesting. You would definitely find this publication very good. And last before I wind up is that there is a prescription also in the book in the present day which is very important. I think youngsters youngsters may agree with professor disagree with professor kuru but they must read this and try to understand and then with logical arguments can contradict it what is the prescription in order to solve the problems of violence and authoritarianism why I am stressing on authorism because the book's title carries this word Islamic authoritarianism and underdevelopment velment the name of the book which is under discussion now and under development as well as catch up to western levels of development. So this is very significant. Muslims should establish competitive Muslims should establish competitive and meritocratic systems.

[00:47:16]How wonderfully written. I'm again saying you may disagree with it but read these will require substantial socioeconomic and political reform with ideological and institutional dimension for such a reform to take place.

[00:47:36]What is the other point he's making?

[00:47:38]Muslims need creative intellectuals, creative intellectuals and an independent bourgeoisi who can balance the power of the state authorities. There is a clear-cut recommendation of the MMA and the state authorities division. That is what the author says. I may have urred in my flawed in my interpretation as I said that I am inadequate in knowledge in these subjects but I this is what I understood it once again I thank the JNU center for Arabic and African studies all these scholars who are present Dr. Havesur Raman of the Kuzro Foundation the dynamo behind this discussion and all the viewers for accommodating me.

[00:48:26]Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[00:48:31]>> Thank you so much sir. Thank you very much indeed for your uh insightful remark about the uh book uh uh and you went so uh deeply about the book. uh no one can believe that you didn't uh read the complete book because uh uh your speech uh uh have shown the essence of the book how you uh gave insights in few words about the book.

[00:49:00][snorts] Now we have with us uh S Arabic senior professor Alim Arabic scholar uh center of Arabic and African studies Jahal Nehu University uh who has traveled to many countries and who have uh written uh many research articles and uh who has command over the uh uh several uh lang languages and uh he is known for his the quality of uh interpretation in uh Arabic uh and uh uh English at uh high level when uh especially two countries uh uh meet together. Uh so we have with us uh professor Mujibur Rahman Sa one of the senior professor of uh uh center of Arabic and African studies. uh so I would like uh to request him to uh speak about the book and uh uh give us uh his insights. Uh please now over to you professor Mujibur Rammana.

[00:50:12]>> Uh good evening everyone. Peace and happiness uh uh be upon you all. Uh I thank Foundation especially Dr. Rafi Raman uh for this wonderful opportunity.

[00:50:28]Am I audible?

[00:50:30]>> Yes sir.

[00:50:31]>> Uh so for this uh wonderful opportunity to speak uh on a truly thoughtprovoking book. Uh it's a pleasure to be here discussing the udu translation of uh professor uh tame kuru's 2019 work Islam authoritarianism and under development a global and historical comparison.

[00:50:55]Initially I was provided with the udu translation but uh I requested Dr. Rafi Rahman to provide me the original one because these ideas are better understood in English uh than Udu although the Udu translation is very good and I recommend that those who want to read in Udu must read this book and we already heard from the horse's mouth the author was here and also Dr. Shantan who spoke so brilliantly about the book leaving very little for us to comment on it. Anyway, we have uh come here together to uh discuss this book. So, I'll just give you uh my impression about this book, how I understood it and what are the positives and negatives of the book. Uh, of course, there is nothing perfect in this world. So, uh I'd like to also give uh some other perspectives also uh which you will hear from me in uh 10 minutes time.

[00:51:54]So this book addresses a question that puzzles nearly two billion Muslims worldwide and 800 or 8 billion people around the world. It's not only the Muslims who are puzzled but everybody is puzzled. Why do Muslim majority countries according to the terminology used by professor Guru MMC's Muslim majority countries today suffer from higher levels of authoritarianism, political violence and socioeconomic underdevelopment compared to global averages and this is a fact which no nobody can deny. Professor Kuru, whom we just heard speaking so eloquently about this book, avoids easy answers. He rejects both those who blame Islam's doctrines directly and those uh who blame everything on Western imperialism.

[00:52:50]Instead, he offers a powerful historical institutional explanation focused on the longstanding state alliance.

[00:53:02]Uh the book has two main parts. The present reality backed by data and a deep historical comparison. Professor Kuru shows us that between the 8th and 11th 12th centuries, Muslim societies led the world in science, philosophy, medicine and trade.

[00:53:24]Independent scholars and merchants enjoyed considerable freedom. Great minds like Al Farzami, Abnes, Al Farabi, uh Hisab, Alberoni and so many countless many emerged during this period and later influenced the European Renaissance which started 14th and 15th century onwards.

[00:53:49]uh according to professor Kuru a major shift happened around the 11th century with the rise of uh the military sultanates an alliance formed between orthodox religious scholars and state rulers. This alliance pushed aside merchants and independent thinkers.

[00:54:09]merchants. He calls them a bourgeoa class favoring patronage and conformity over innovation.

[00:54:20]Tak over taja.

[00:54:25]This pattern continued for centuries, stifling creativity, delaying printing and literacy and causing decline even before colonalism arrived in uh the Arab Muslim Muslim countries. In contrast, Europe benefited from healthy tensions between church, estate, merchants and intellectuals.

[00:54:50]In modern times, data shows that Muslim majority countries are lagging in democracy, economy and uh and also we find more violence in these areas.

[00:55:04]Uh according to professor Kuru, the oil wealth has produced rentier economies and rentier politics.

[00:55:12]While colonialism harmed these societies, Kuru argues that the roots of stagnation were already present.

[00:55:23]Importantly, he stresses that the MMA state alliance is not inherent to Islam. It's a historical development that can be changed and it is not peculiar to Islam also. He has referred in his recent speech just concluded his speech he also referred to that he calls for reforms that empower independent intellectuals, merchants, civil society uh along with passive secularism.

[00:55:54]Uh there are a couple of important points that uh deserve our attention.

[00:55:59]For example, Pruru argues that Ghazali was a primary intellectual force in a broader structural shift that saw the marginalization of rationalists philosophers by traditionalist that is theological orthodoxy in his book philosopher ultimately stifling independent critical thought and scientific development in the long term.

[00:56:29]Similarly, he cites the initial ban on the printing press in parts of the Muslim world, say for Turkey for example, as evidence of a broader resistance to rationalism. He has just referred that printing was allowed or brought in 300 years after it was invented in Germany.

[00:56:51]So uh as an evidence of a broader resistance to rationalism and intellectual openness arguing that such opposition reflected the dominance of uh conservative religious and political force over scientific and technological progress.

[00:57:12]uh I just want to give a perspective that it is not professor who spoke about this topic he's the first one uh to spoke about this uh in in the modern uh world in modern times some modern Muslim thinkers have also examined the causes of Muslim backwardness though from different perspectives for example one of the early pioneers of Arab Arab Islamic na Muhammad Abdu he attri contributed decline to intellectual stagnation and blind imitation tak advocating renewed ishiad and reconciliation between Islam and modern science.

[00:57:56]uh Sheikh Shakibar Salam emphasized moral weakness, political disunityity and loss of Islamic solidarity.

[00:58:05]While a towering Islamic intellectual and figure Malikbin Nabi from Algeria, he focused on a broader civilizational crisis and the concept of colonizability that is the Muslims being colonizable because of their uh stressing the rebuilding of product reproductive culture, productive culture and ideas that Muslims became Arabs became colonizable because of their inherent weakness.

[00:58:34]uh Muhammad Ahmed Al Jabarifa also analyzed the crisis epistemologically arguing that nonrational modes of thought overshadowed uh philosophical reasoning whereas Muhammad Aron criticized the closure of Islamic thought through rigid orthod orthodoxy and called for modern critical approaches to Islamic studies. Iranian philosopher Ali Shariati who is more closer to Kuru argued that Islam had been transformed into a conservative ideology serving political elites through religion state alliances.

[00:59:15]Overall these thinkers fall into three broad approaches. intellectual and religious stagnation, civilizational and cultural weakness and political institutional power structures. Kuru's distinctive contribution lies in linking intellectual decline to concrete institutional arrangements especially uh the longstanding state alliance.

[00:59:46]uh talking about the strengths of this book what I gathered from my reading of it uh first in Udo then in English version. This is a landmark study because it is rigorous, it is comparative, it is global and it is nuanced.

[01:00:06]Kuru bravely confronts uncomfortable realities without essentializing Islam or shifting all blame outward. His analysis is policy relevant and offers hope by pointing to the creativity spirit of early Muslim societies.

[01:00:25]The book's importance becomes even glaring when we face a painful reality.

[01:00:32]What is that? In the last 200 to 300 years, Muslim contribution to global knowledge production and breakthrough inventions have been shockingly limited or maybe near zero.

[01:00:50]most prominent Muslim scientists like Ahmed Zel of Egypt or Abdul Salam of Pakistan they achieved greatness while working in western institutions not in a Muslim country institution so this gap makes Kuru's explanation essential however while I wind up I would point out to certain limitations of this book some critics feel that Kuru has overemphasized the MMA state alliance and underplayed other factors like geography, tribal structures or external shocks.

[01:01:30]The book does not also adequately discuss how [snorts] western powers have sometimes blocked democratic growth in Muslim majority countries through uh their direct or indirect interventions and support for authoritarian regimes in the 20th and 21st centuries.

[01:01:51]And also the data about violence does not fully account for how the Israeli Palestinian conflict seen as a deep injustice by much of the Muslim world has failed radicalization and many violent incidents.

[01:02:12]In conclusion, I would say that this book uh is bold, datadriven, and historically rich. It explains the Muslim world's reversal of fortunes without excusing internal problems or demonizing the faith. By highlighting the Oli State Alliance, it creates a space for genuine reform and intellectual revival.

[01:02:41]uh in times full of slogans and blame games today. This book deserves serious engagement, it reminds us that facing history honestly is the first step toward a better future. The situation today is grim and it needs retrospection. If somebody points it out, we have to listen, you have to pause, we have to listen and we have to introspect. The book calls for introspection and honest introspection.

[01:03:09]We may not agree the reader may not agree with everything that has been said and no book is perfect but the broader argument or the thesis of the is that it is for self- introspection and as uh Dr. Shantanuji has pointed out in uh the recommendation part in order to for us uh to catch up with the west we have to do what is needed. Thank you.

[01:03:35]I look forward to your questions.

[01:03:38]>> Thank you so much sir. Thank you so much uh Dr. Professor Mojipur Rammanser for enlightening us about his uh wonderful uh relief and uh deep insights about the book.

[01:04:12]powers inventions societies or different countries.

[01:04:40]period.

[01:04:52]Or now we have how youth reflect about this book and how youth understand may youth agreed uh with the content of book or uh they differ with the content of book. So how a a young scholar, a young student of uh Islamic studies who all the way from the uh Jammu and Kashmir and the uh [snorts] doctor fellow and uh department of Islamic studies Baba Gulam Sha Basha University uh Rajori in Jammu and Kashmir. We have with us uh uh Mr. Habib Bilal. uh he participated in several national and international uh conferences uh regarding the Islam and Islamic civilization. He's very good uh uh scholar and uh uh uh very good researcher as I know and as I heard uh uh him several time and uh I went through uh some of his articles time to time. So now over to you and he will speak uh uh about the uh one of the aspect of this book sectarianism at as political strategy reviewing professor uh kuru's explanation of authoritarianism uh Islam authoritarianism and under development. So now over to you Mr. Habib Bilah. [clears throat] >> Thank you so much Dr. Rahman and good evening and asalam alaikum to everyone.

[01:06:31]So basically my uh area of interest and area of studies is sectarianism, sex and divisions and the intrafaith studies. It deals with intrafaith studies.

[01:06:44]So I find uh this particular book of professor guru very relevant and very interesting as it is uh you know uh very relevant to my subject.

[01:06:56]So I'm going to uh share my opinion on our thoughts uh under the title of sectarianism as political strategy reviewing Dr. Ahmed Kuru's explanation of authoritarianism in Muslim majority states.

[01:07:16]So uh what I have uh discovered that uh uh in his work Islam and authoritarianism and underdevelopment, professor Ahmed Guru explores uh the historical and structural origin of scholar Olma state alliances and its impact on the religious thought as well as the state authority. He argues that stagnation observed in the many Muslim majority societies is not rooted in Islam. Uh Islam is uh never to be blamed for the stagnation but uh it's a particular institutional transformation that emerged during the 11th century when Ola state alliance uh you know uh was emerged. Okay. Kuru situates sectarianism within a broader framework of authoritarianism, political authority and state control over religion emphasizing that sectarian conflict is historically constructed and politically uh motivated or instrumentalized rather than purely theological in its nature.

[01:08:37]The second thing is he argues that sectarian divisions between Sunnis and Shia and their subgroups uh became politically significant through process of state building and struggles for of power. In early Islamic history, theological disagreements existed. The disagreements or differences of opinion uh on the basis of theological understanding existed in early Islamic you know uh generations but they did not necessarily led to the systematical uh system systematic conflicts uh in the civilization.

[01:09:20]Over time however emerging political authorities used sectarian identities to consolidate their rule. rulers increasingly dependent on religious scholars to define orthodoxy and marginalize dissenting groups or we can say the minority groups authorities of one sect for instance whether it's Shia or Sunni or any other any sect often suppressed the other communities uh you know in minority uh where they are majority they suppress the minority communities thereby institutionalizing the sectarian boundaries and transforming doctrinal differences into enduring political divisions.

[01:10:08]As professor Kuru has discussed how these divisions and how and the you know state alliances uh declined the whole civilizational uh we can say the developmental process um in the golden period of Islam when Muslim societies experienced a remarkable intellectual uh uh diversity and scientific uh progress.

[01:10:38]Dr. Puru notes that the Ola and the merchant classes largely remained independent from political authorities at particularly at that time uh during that period. Such autonomy fostered rationalist theology, philosophy and scientific inquiry enabling Muslim civilization to flourish culturally and economically.

[01:11:06]Compared to many contemporary European societies where uh religious and military elites exercised centralized control, Muslim societies demonstrated greater pluralism and intellectual creativity.

[01:11:21]This era reflects a period before the consolidation of the rigid state sponsored orthodoxy.

[01:11:28]Another thing is that the the major turning point occurred in the 11th century as we have as professor Kuru has already discussed when Ola and the state alliance emerged as a we can say as a policy.

[01:11:46]So we have many examples. Professor Kuru has given many examples of Sunni majorities and Shia majorities and ismiley majorities and Zadi majority states uh who who have you know uh endorsed their um such policies to control or to suppress the other uh communities and to uh legitimize political authority and enforced uh religious ious orthodoxy.

[01:12:21]So uh in short I would say that uh professor Kuru maintains uh that the historical alliance between religious scholars and political rulers created a long-term institutional legacy that continues to shape many Muslim majority states today. We have the example of Saudi. We have the example of Iran. We have the example of Turkey and many other states. Contemporary authority authoritarian regimes are there whether u it's u Turkey, Iran or Saudi or Katar or any any any other country.

[01:13:03]So uh in modern context like uh when when we see through the lens of you know uh sectarian um uh we can say uh the sectarian lens particularly to analyze the uh the authoritarian uh ship of these Muslim nations. uh we uh see that like Iraq and Syria uh there are sectarian divisions uh have been uh intensified and uh have been you know um intensified into state policies, foreign interventions are there and authoritarian governance is there and they have used these uh these sectarian divisions for their vested you know interests. So according to uh do professor Guru these conflicts cannot be explained solely through the theology rather they are rooted in political structures historical grieviances and weak democratic institutions.

[01:14:15]The absence of inclusive uh governance and equal citizenship allows sectarian identities to become central marker of political loyalty and conflict. So this was uh uh these these were my thoughts regarding professor Kuru's uh work. I would I would uh rather say something for the common masses because we have many people who are watching live uh this uh live stream. So I have something recently we have witnessed the Iran war. We have witnessed the Iran war and uh professor but he was discussing that how uh authority controls uh controls the population controls the communities by using religion as a tool. We have seen this recently. We have seen this uh whether I would I I would skip to you know name the nations but we have many examples. Somewhere mus Sunni Muslims are in majority somewhere Shia Muslims are in majority.

[01:15:35]One of my friend discussion he was you know sharing his opinion regarding this all war and all this situation that Iran Iran there there is Sunni population in minority right and uh they have been marginalized okay so he are saying this and this is not something we should related with theology. We should relate with the theological understanding or purely some kind of academic thing. This is not that view. Okay. We should rather understand this with a political approach of the states.

[01:16:32]Dominica condition 5 to 8% Sunnis key Iran condition 10 to 15% Shia Saudi may this is not something different so it has nothing to do with Shia Sunni divide or anything else it is something which is you know linked with the authoritarianship So it is not something only related with Shiism or Sunnism or anything else. Even if for example modern perspective modern times 100% populationist soism as a state ruler our people are maj majority of our people are capitalist in their approach or communist in their approach. So they will use that particular approach as a tool to control them.

[01:18:00]So states we should differentiate the religious understandings. We should religion because he professor kuru that there is there there are people who use scholars and their theories or and then they use for their agendas to control the population. So uh this was my uh remarks and opinion. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

[01:18:43]>> Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much Mr. Habib. And uh uh we have uh uh one more speaker and then a vote of thank by uh another speaker professor Rahman Saba who is also senior professor in uh center of Dr. Raman.

[01:19:00]>> Sorry to sorry to interrupt Dr. Sistinguish Professor I'm thankful to you sir Dr. If I'm please because you are the convener moderator also briefly Maybe he was referring to the USA influence the business and other than religion that is also interfering into dayto-day political state craft.

[01:20:22]Thank you Dr. to the next speaker. Carry on.

[01:20:26]>> Thank you, sir.

[01:20:48]professor reopening mindsently found.

[01:21:15]What is the reality of Motherarchindian subcontinent or West Now I would like to request Dr. Baris Mazari, assistant professor, department of Islamic studies, So, contact number Dr. Visar foundation.

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[01:37:55]Foundation congratulations Dr. Visi scholars times. Professor Rahman, Vote of Thanks, Center of Arabic and Afran Studies, Senior Professor and former Chairperson, Professor Ranu Rahmaniz.

[01:39:10]I hope and from the bottom of my heart and especially to Professor Mohammed Utbin.

[01:39:32]Professor examination.

[01:39:53]Sorry.

[01:40:12]Alhamdulillah. And we are blessed to have uh our mentor and guide and our honorable director Dr. Sir, PhD, Ph.D.

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[01:45:03]Yeah, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Dr. Raman.

[01:45:07]Yeah. Professor Raman is online. Yeah.

[01:45:10]Most welcome. Most welcome, sir.

[01:45:17]Center of Arabic and Afran studies. Java Lu University. senior professor, former uh chairperson or sorry student or scholars mentor professor vote of thanks Professor Vote of Network. problem.

[01:46:35]Okay.

[01:46:41]Okay.

[01:46:48]Professor Rahman foundation or center of Arabic and African studies university of directors my one of director is present backstage director Dr. Shantanu Mukharji Professor Mohammed Sab Chairperson Center of Arabic and African Studies Professor Risbanu Rahman Sa Dr. Vis Mazari Sahab Mr. Habib Balal Sahab and Professor Mati Kuru Sahab or all viewers Facebook or YouTube Facebook, YouTube or Twitter.

[01:48:34]most welcome and thank you very much indeed to all of you for being there and for viewing our program and uh uh with a great patience and thank you so much one and all. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[01:48:48]>> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, sir.

[01:48:52]Thank you, sir.

[01:49:10]Thank you everyone.

[01:49:13]Good night. Good evening. Thank you.

[01:49:16]Good night. Good night.

[01:49:22]Shukria. Shukria. Shukria.