MACV-SOG M.I.A special

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-24

[00:00:01]All righty, good afternoon everybody.

[00:00:03]Didn't realize the uh showtime clock had gone down like it did, but thank you for bearing with us here. Um we uh gosh, I can't even remember uh how long it's been since we did one of these. We did two right off the bat when the channel first started. I think we did another one a much later on and this might be the fourth installment. I need to check and see, but uh I know it's been quite a while. Although we we did do a uh a random uh MIA special not too long ago or a few months ago. So, but uh we're going to be continuing our SOA Mac V Sawg particular list here of missing in action and uh this will be we've got this show and then we've got one more with the list that we have and uh actually we're probably I think we're going to start picking out some cases to actually cover. I think that would be pretty interesting to do. So, um we're going to we're going to get started here. Let me put my phone up.

[00:01:04]It's messing with my microphone. All righty, uh and sorry I did not uh even even mention here. I'm used to jumping on alone. We've got Brandon with us uh who those of y'all that have been around, y'all should remember Brandon.

[00:01:17]Like I said, we had we we've done shows multiple times. We did shows at the very beginning of this channel. In fact, I think you might have actually been the technical first guest on the channel before Ed Walkoff.

[00:01:31]>> Yeah, yeah.

[00:01:32]Um all righty, so like I said, we've got our list ready here and we're going to jump into this and start covering some of the uh remaining men on this uh unfortunate uh list that that we're covering today.

[00:01:47]Um and and number one today that we are going to be covering is Mr. Leo E.

[00:01:53]Seymour of uh Spike Team Texas. He actually had combat, um, experience before he ended up at FOB 2. This is still '67, so it's not technically CCC at the time. Um, he was on a tour with just the a regular fifth group A team, A-234 and Lack, and then, uh, I believe Yeah, he ended up going over to A-237 at Lang Song and, uh, actually volunteered at A-237, it looks like, for Mag We Song and was sent to FOB FOB 2 to Spike Team Texas. And, I think Yeah, he took the 1-1 and his 1-0 is the legendary, uh, Lloyd Adams. I don't know, uh, of course, at this time they did not have Lang Song, so I'm not quite familiar on if he had any prior, uh, shall we say, or or any, uh, any 1-0, uh, or Recon work. Um, I'm not quite sure on that, but, uh, Lloyd Adams was his 1-0 first and that snake, uh, the the world-famous Snake Adams, he actually ended up, uh, FOB 2. And then, if you've read Nick Brokhausen's book, he was at FOB 2 in '67 and then he was back at CCN {slash} Task Force 1, uh, with Nick Brokhausen. He was mentioned in, uh, Nick's book, so, uh, as I remember of Marty Tabu. But, uh, Leo Seymour, uh, ended up with Spike Team Texas and he was on the team for a bit and ended up running the team running with the team long enough, um, that he ended up taking the team leader position in, uh, July of 1967.

[00:03:44]He would be going on the mission that, uh, he would have unfortunately lose his life and then would go missing in action on.

[00:03:52]Um, the mission began on July 1st of '67 with Seamores the 1-0. They are They don't know, I'm sure if we dig a little bit we might can get some names, but on my thing right here they don't know who is 1-1 or is 1-2 or so unfortunately that's not known.

[00:04:12]They went into Charlie 7 which was in Laos. Team was on the ground for 2 days observing the Doc Zoo River. I'm not sure what exactly they I'm sure probably looking for sampans not quite sure other than that or maybe troop movements across said river. Um, but according to interviews Spike Team Texas had left the river watch and was placing out leaflets along one of the trail offshoots of the Ho Chi Minh Trail when a company of North Vietnamese soldiers heading down into South Vietnam encountered the propaganda leaflets. The NVA immediately began a sweep searching the area and searching for the Spike Team. Contact was made an overwhelming number of enemy hit the team and the team immediately became split and their immediate action drills which is terrible and after that they were all on the run. They shot they all shot again into three different parts of the team and people were picked up at three different locations over the next 2 days with absolute no sign of Leo Seamore. So, unfortunately that's all they have. We do have coordinates of his last radio known position shall we say and they do have his radio >> [clears throat] >> um, broadcast back where they can say that they're they're seeing full on straight up main line NVA, khaki uniforms, pith helmets, rucksacks, AKs, the whole megillah.

[00:05:52]Um Uh one Vietnamese team member was recovered on the 4th of July. Two other Vietnamese team members were recovered on the 5th of July, and one of the other special forces remains MIA. Um Before extraction, one team member found approximately 50 shallow one-man foxholes. Okay, so they were up against a lot of people.

[00:06:16]Um And evidently, one of the Americans uh Yeah, it's uh it actually says one of the Americans got picked up with one of the Vietnamese. So, I think that was a mess up on earlier when I said that uh all the Americans died. They did not, but um Very sad. Um I've I've seen him covered a lot. He pops up on Facebook. I'll show a picture right here. Um and as a matter of fact, in uh '99, uh there's a there's a big write-up in one of Jason Hardy's books. Let me see what number that is. I think it's volume three.

[00:06:56]Um they're in uh the Adopo province in Laos, and they're looking for uh Leo Seymour and I believe in a pilot that went down uh in '68 in around the same area.

[00:07:11]Um they ended up finding remains of bomb craters, uh chi uh AK-47 chest rigs and such, but no no signs of any human remains, unfortunately. Um which seems to to happen a lot, which we were literally just talking about uh before we got online here. Um Very sad case. Um and and especially they they it seems like other than the general area, if you will, they they don't have a an idea of where he would be because the team off shot then split again and ran. So, who you know, who in the hell knows where he could be unfortunately. But, it is good to know they at least have been on the ground searching. Um do you know anything if they've been back on this particular case looking for Mr. Seymour?

[00:08:02]I I haven't heard anything. Not to my knowledge. I was kind of wondering the same thing as you were talking. You know, do the biographies that were discussing with these gentlemen, do they have any you know, like you said with the 99 uh field uh excavations. Um I didn't know if they had any updates on all of them as we go through them, but I haven't heard uh I have not heard a lot about any any uh Ooh, did we lose Brandon?

[00:08:43]He froze up a little bit.

[00:08:46]Um >> [clears throat] >> Let's see here.

[00:08:58]Brandon, you froze on us, my man.

[00:09:01]Um I'll take over until he pops back in.

[00:09:07]Um and I'm checking out now um as y'all can see on the screen. Um no other personnel is listed as missing in action.

[00:09:22]Wow, he actually spent 4 years in the Marine Corps before joining the Army. Um 10 miles inside Laos in the Adipose.

[00:09:30]See, they Okay, they at least have a uh a general area, if you will.

[00:09:36]1974 report indicated Seymour's last known location was in the vicinity of well, coordinates hostile threat in the area laws precluded any ongoing inspections. Oh.

[00:09:49]Okay. Wow. So, danger is on the ground for the for the searchers it sounds like at that point in time and this and still in the 70s.

[00:09:58]Um, Thanks Drew. I appreciate you man. I hope you're doing well. We've got to do our D.B. Cooper show here soon.

[00:10:04]Um, oh dang Brandon's gone. Uh, looks like he lost internet. Um, jeez that sucks. Um, well, we'll keep going. I I hate that.

[00:10:20]Um, we've still got another show to do. So, we'll we'll get it ironed out and make sure Brandon can join us. Maybe he can hop back on intermittently and if his internet gets back on.

[00:10:32]Um, >> [clears throat] >> but let's see here on number two on the list is uh, Jerry Shriver of course just done a show on Jerry.

[00:10:46]Um, and uh, April 24th, 1969.

[00:10:51]He's on on the ground looking for the Co Svin headquarters which is the main uh, Communist NBA headquarters down the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Cambodia.

[00:11:06]He's sent in with a It's technically labeled as a hatchet force or a CCS exploitation company but it it really wasn't the full one it may it was a small group. Um, it should have been a lot bigger now that we know, you know, I'm not going to break it all down again. We we literally just did a did a Jerry show, but um they they landed in a hornet's nest and it it it was bad. Um everybody was pretty much torn up.

[00:11:43]Um There there were survivors that we've uh I've spoken with one um uh captain um he uh he he he seems pretty sure from on the ground and seeing stuff happening um that he saw Jerry he saw Jerry hit and he's pretty sure he saw Jerry hit and die. So, there there's people that uh and then you know, it it's not a bad thing. I'm not saying, you know, these people shouldn't do this, but you know, you've got the people out there that are uh you know, that still say, "Oh, you know, he's he's alive. He uh I've heard rumors uh on one of these sites that said that he survived and uh was so wanting to stay in the war no matter what at what side that he was actually leading uh an NVA squad um in in North Vietnam.

[00:12:38]That that's that's crazy. Um From from everything I've heard from both personally talking to a man there um I'm pretty positive in my point of view that Jerry died that day on the ground um and was not alive for the NVA to either capture or execute. They may have desecrated his body, but then again after the the battle that went on, the the gunships that came in, I ended I believe they ended up finally uh dropping some bombs and stuff.

[00:13:18]I don't think they would have been able to uh to know it was Jerry if they got there and came back. So, the whole thing about Hanoi Hannah having his ears and all that, I don't believe that either. I believe Jerry died in in [clears throat] the field of battle and he's still somewhere around that field of battle.

[00:13:38]Unless they knew, again, unless they knew it was a solid team and ended up bring up his Brandon and and and knowing and bringing him back and just because it was an American SF member. I I fully believe he's died and they didn't capture him. He didn't get get turned over to anybody. His body might have, but I don't believe that personally. There are rumors of it, but I believe Jerry died that day and he is still somewhere in Cambodia or as we've heard now from one of our previous guests who works at the Asymmetrical Warfare Accounting Group, AMAG, um that the borders after the war have have drifted east east a little bit and where Jerry fought could technically be in Vietnam.

[00:14:31]So, there's also that that that little tidbit. What do What do you think, Brandon? I I I think that I guess in some way we could almost label him as an urban legend at this point because there's so much there's so much out there. There's well, as a whole, there's so many conspiracy theories with this entire issue to begin with. But, uh the thing that gets me I I don't know I don't know if the Vietnamese during the war just said, "Hey, we we got him in their in their radio broadcast which we know of just to pump up propaganda for their for their citizens [clears throat] or whether maybe maybe that was true. I mean, it it's hard to say, but I think he was the type of personality within SOG and the other projects that if he had a way, he would he would have broken off and ran and hid somewhere and well, fought to the death, I think because Oh, yeah. he I when you look at him, I I never when I see pictures of him, I I never really see any like fear in in him. I mean, it's like you know, if anything, I see like, man, I'd be intimidated by this guy cuz Oh, he's always got the look. He and he's one person there's there's several people in the SOG realm when you talk to guys that uh that ran recon uh quite a bit and were around a lot of a lot of guys. Um Mr. Tim Shaub talked about it, you know, Bob Howard, Fred Zabitosky, Jerry, you know, some of Pat Watkins. Some of these guys just had that look. You didn't have to know them, you could just like like Mr. Tim said, you could smell it. You could feel it around them when you when you got around them. I'd also heard too sometimes that some of the SOG guys had said, you know, man, he needs to he needs to like find a different position within SOG. He needs to be out of the field cuz he you know, you can only you can only play your luck so many times before something's going to happen, but um I do believe that it honestly, I I believe his remains are out there.

[00:16:51]I and you know, he's the kind he's the kind of guy that I that I think of like the World War II soldiers that they found in uh the Japanese guy that they found in '74 still thinking the war was going on.

[00:17:06]He's the type of guy that I that I would almost like go, wow, he just walked out of the jungle after, you know, how well, 57 years after the engagement that supposedly killed him and/or made him missing. So, I mean, I don't know, but I I do think his remains are out there.

[00:17:29]And do that find him? Absolutely. Does our government? I'm not so sure.

[00:17:39]Yeah, at at this point I I I don't know.

[00:17:44]I'm beginning to question our our uh not the individuals in the organization, shall shall we say, but the organizations as a whole led by the government, said by the government. I'm I'm really uh beginning to get wary on on some of these stories I'm hearing and everything. It just uh And here's one case that, you know, like you said earlier, he he's such an urban legend at this point in time. You got people that literally don't know about SOG, will see his picture. Uh you know, he's almost like he he tilts getting on that ground of being shared so much, but Jerry people know Jerry that don't know anything about SOG, you know. He he's that much of a character. So, it it would seem like with as much interest as there is and many private organizations now something would have would have percolated.

[00:18:42]>> I think that's what it's going to take to get some of these recoveries is private private uh organizations like AMARG and some other ones that you know, they just get their funding people just donate. They just they you know, and they have the resources, the scientific tools, they they hire the scientists and the and the anthropologists and everybody else and they just go out there and do it and, you know, Oh, yeah. The not just because they're not with the government doesn't mean they're going in half-cocked. I mean, they have got everything and then some. I mean, they they like you all seen it that that's all some of the guests we've had. We've had Mike on from Maymag and and shared photos. I mean, they get it going and and put it all into it. And as a matter of fact, he's overseas right now, I think in uh the Philippines. Is it the Okay. In uh Mindanao trying to find those three Americans that were executed during World War II. Jeez. I mean, he's he's such an interesting guy that cases that he's done and uh and been on when and he's been he's he's looked for Jerry as a matter of fact once before and uh that's that's who I've been talking to. There's people out there, I'm not going to mention any names. He might actually be watching uh that that gets on there and uh I've even heard a personally said that he's given false information just to throw people off and and mess with people. And I was like, "Dude, that is the most disgusting thing I've ever heard in my life and I would hope you would not tell anybody else that because that makes me want to vomit." But um it it's there's there's so much going on that we don't know about uh with with Vietnam uh and like we were talking offline, it it it's all of all of these cases. It's not just SOG. SOG is one in particular because the border situation Laos, Vietnam, North Vietnam, Cambodia. But all of our veterans it it it's uh it's rife with just uh issues.

[00:20:49]Issues, shall we say?

[00:20:51]Um number three is um and I should say Jerry was still listed as MIA um PFD presumptive uh finding of death. It and again it should be it should have been KIA BNR body not recovered.

[00:21:14]And our our number three on our list is Mr. Ronald Eugene Smith from Kontum. He was killed in action body not recovered while on mission in Laos 28th November 1970 a sergeant first class.

[00:21:29]He was with RT Kentucky attacked and he was immediately shot. Um and killed pretty much instantly with a shot in the head and the chest unfortunately.

[00:21:42]And the it said he sought cover from one of the the the the the men that survived. I That is crazy to think he took that many shots from an AK-47 but then a B-40 rocket struck where he had taken cover and he was killed there presume they they presumed because the rest of the team had to break contact and left his body when they did not get a response. And unfortunately from what I can see right here and uh Oh, actually I can update this. It said there was no look due to his due to hostiles in the area but right here thanks to Jason Hardy because of enemy activity in the area a bright light team could not be inserted and the two RT Kentucky members were listed as killed in action. So it was Mr. Ron and uh >> [sighs] >> one of the teams Indoch were KIA. They they actually died together and that's strange we were just talking about that trying to to locate Indoch that worked with SOG and and how they are found if they are being looked for if if any have been found how many went missing actually would be a good thing that Brandon spoke about. Um and uh what got this all kicked off is RT Kentucky inserted um to locate a water pipeline. And uh there's pictures of some of the some of the things like uh they use this literally like a trough running through the the through the triple canopy jungle and crazy. And uh team members thought about not doing it uh but decided to go ahead and do it and place C4 on it and blew up the area. Uh blew up the uh the the the water uh pipeline and immediately, almost like they were probably being watched from the sounds of uh some of the interviews given, they were immediately shot on from multiples multiple positions with RPGs. So bad. It almost sounds like they were uh lured into a trap with uh a a great target and or either they had been tracked to that location and be set up on them while they were debating should we blow this pipe or not. And uh when they blew it, they said, "We got them."

[00:24:13]And and hit the target. It is my only presumption of that. And he was also in the the Adepo area. So that area of uh Laos in the 7 69 and 70, um there's quite a few men uh in the Adepo province of of Laos that are only missing in action list. I just noticed that looking at this, to be honest. Um jeez. I can't even imagine what that's like. There you are snooping and pooping. Y'all find out of the middle of nowhere a pipeline and uh the one zero is debating should we blow this thing or not. And everybody comes to a consensus, yes, we're going to blow it and immediately get the heck out of here.

[00:24:56]And you blow it and boom B40s just start coming in.

[00:25:04]There's Mr. Ron at 10 school right there. That's uh I know people are going to nitpick the yes, that is a AI enhanced photo. Um car 15 is updated and it's got stuff that would probably not be era authentic. I've had people point that out, but uh the the the photo that is online was old and this one had just popped up on one of our group pages, so I used it. Um Yeah.

[00:25:31]Uh But do they do do these cases indicate what their status is within well, depending how old the information is like with uh DPAA or uh JPRC do like active pursuit or unreliable or Leo Seymour as of right now. That's why I asked you a minute ago. Um as of right now his is his status was non-active.

[00:25:59]Um Okay, so so it didn't say like active pursuit or >> No. No. No. And Jerry's um I believe Jerry's >> of it. Yeah. It's still active. Last time I looked it was still active pursuit on the DPAA page. And I they some some pages have been sharing some stuff on Mr. Smith uh the past month or so and I need to try and check and see, but um I've not uh I've not heard anything as to the uh the status on his case either. And that's that's interesting that he was with a um an Indige because like I said this week or maybe tonight, I'm going to put that in the group page and ask the guys do they know um about the Indige situation um because I I not even thought about that till you brought that up, um, to be quite frank.

[00:26:56]Um, do you, uh, do you want to cover number, uh, four here on the list? Sure. I don't have the list in front of me, but Oh, it's, uh, Mr. Willy Stark. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah. Yes.

[00:27:09]Willy Stark, uh, Special Forces Project Delta, uh, December 2nd, 1966, and he was with another American, Russell Bott, and they were in an engagement, and supposedly, uh, heavily wounded and captured, uh, according to US intelligence.

[00:27:37]And throughout the years, there have been, uh, many live sighting reports of both of them.

[00:27:46]Um, one of the reports that I have read, uh, I believe in the Library of Congress, they have a lot of POW/MIA files in there, uh, is that I think it's Willy Stark, but I I can't 100% say for sure, was living with a Vietnamese, uh, villager, and was also missing a leg, I think, from that incident, and I don't remember the year. I want to say it was just before 1990.

[00:28:24]So, again, uh, I'll I'll make this point while I'm thinking of it. I encourage everybody that wants to learn more about these cases or the the issue as a whole, to also go to the Facebook page of the Secret War in Laos, Mhm. because [clears throat] the administrator moderator post old newspaper articles on the issue, and after reading these, I I mean, I'm I've been fired up for years, but after reading these, it just makes me even more angry and want to do want to just keep this issue alive.

[00:28:59]And there's so many articles that he's posted and you just read them and and you you finish reading them and go well, we had this information at this time.

[00:29:12]Why didn't we do something?

[00:29:15]And we wonder why the this issue is still unresolved. And again, we're not going to resolve them all. We have to accept that.

[00:29:25]But there's just too much media out there from the past and the present that tells a very dark disturbing story on this issue as to what happened to a lot of these men.

[00:29:43]And as a matter of fact uh yesterday or the day before, he posted an article from my uh newspaper, the Arizona Republic and I had that exact same article plastered on my bedroom wall when it first came out. Wow.

[00:30:01]And I kept it I kept notebooks. I I have them somewhere of every newspaper article that came out on the issue from like 1987 till I till I can't remember, but uh That's crazy.

[00:30:17]It's it's just shocking how much intelligence we have and what we could still get even in 2026 to at least try to close these cases. I mean I've I've said it on every podcast. I still believe there could be five or six guys still hanging on.

[00:30:41]But I not to jump in on you here, but I'm bringing up one of the the pages on Mr. Star. Well, I thought I had it. Um No, let me bring this up. Mr. Norm Doney, who was very very heavily involved at the end of his life, but even while he was still CCC before he got out, he was the op sergeant at this time at Kason.

[00:31:13]And he overheard the intel sergeants at at the B-52 desk talking about Bot, and they said there had been sightings of Bot um being walked through a village, was alive and in relatively good health, and then I believe even a a sighting of of Dyre uh uh the other American that that was with with them, I believe.

[00:31:47]You know, I'll bring this up while you're looking at information. I mean, there's a gentleman I'm trying to think of his name now.

[00:31:56]Uh Frank Anton who wrote the book Why Didn't You Get Me Out? And they had satellite imagery or photos some one of the two, probably photos more likely but of him being escorted down the Ho Chi Minh Trail during the war.

[00:32:17]Jeez.

[00:32:18]>> So, if they had that information then, and of course he came out alive, thank God, but if they had that availability then, who else did they have information on if they had this these pictures of these Americans what being escorted down the trail to North Vietnam. So, pictures is that that's that's hard evidence to to refute right there.

[00:32:47]>> even showed him those photos when he was uh released. They said, "We knew about We knew about your capture and where you were going when, you know, the before you were released. So, if they had information then of that caliber, what else do they have or what else do we still have that could that could pinpoint locations of recoveries or best case scenario, somebody I mean, alive.

[00:33:16]So, Now, with them being Delta, I mean, I'm looking at this to see they should have been um Wow, okay, they should have been in in Vietnam, not actually crossing the border, but it looks like they're a mile and a half into Laos, west of the DMZ.

[00:33:40]They're they're up north north of Khe San running operations at this time. So, it it Wow, yeah, it's quite easy to see where they could have disappeared very easily with them being so close already to North Vietnam, even on the Laos and South Vietnam side of things. I mean, jeez.

[00:34:01]Again, there's so many there's so many theories out there and I will go to my grave believing that A, guys were left behind, obviously, and B, left be or left behind alive, and I believe any that are that were alive and left behind after all this time uh until their death if that's happened, they probably assimilated into the culture. I I really think and probably realize, "Well, they're not coming to They're not coming to get me.

[00:34:32]So, I might as make I might as well make a life you know, the best of it. And uh I just it's there's too much information out there and too much technology especially now to just put this on a shelf somewhere and go you know, uh to put it one way and I mean no I mean no disrespect to the World War II and Korean families at all because they deserve the same. Mhm. But they're disinterring remains from both of those conflicts because as one POW/MIA researcher has said it's called low-hanging fruit.

[00:35:14]They they disinter them. They have the better technology to identify them and it helps with the DPAA budget for the next fiscal year. So, the easier the recovery, the more funds you're going to get. Whereas with Southeast Asia, you've got so many roadblocks you've got a you've got to get by to even start a field excavation of a site of a site.

[00:35:40]Just getting on the ground is is is an issue of almost it sounds like the way they're making it out insurmountable uh odds. I mean, >> [sighs and snorts] >> Jeez. I see it this way too. If if if both sides, the US and the Laotians, the Cambodians, and the Vietnamese, if we just all sat down and said look, the war's over, you know, I think what it is is that the governments of Southeast Asia want us to concede and say look, you guys lost you guys lost the war.

[00:36:16]And we we achieved victory. You lost.

[00:36:21]And maybe if we if we swallowed our pride and said that, we might make more progress. I don't know. I mean uh it it it's hard to say, but I just don't it it's just very sad that we can't just all sit down and say it's over.

[00:36:38]You know, can we just And we can help both sides. I'm not against I'm not against helping find the remains of of the Vietnamese or the Laotians or whomever. I mean if it's going to help the issue and help both sides heal, I I don't have a problem with that.

[00:36:57]And it's if they would just do that, I think there would be a lot more progress.

[00:37:04]I I would I this point tell them to to at least try to try anything. I mean, these fam- like you said, some of these families have been waiting uh I mean The earliest >> decades decades. The earliest known MIA case is 1961 for the United States in Southeast Asia, to my knowledge, an Air Force uh master sergeant. I believe his last name was Benkowski.

[00:37:33]So, he's been missing what? 60 5 years now?

[00:37:39]Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know. I and again, we have to accept we're not going to find them all.

[00:37:47]And what we do find may be just like a piece of bone or a tooth or, you know, but it's it also boils down to, I think there's a lot of old war wounds from the Vietnamese side because promises were broken by the United States. So, you know, we promised them $3.25 billion in April of '73.

[00:38:14]And it wasn't wasn't going to get approved by Congress, so they they decided, "Well, if you're not going to do that, then we're going to you know, we're going to hold all these remains or or live POWs until you start doing so.

[00:38:30]And I I truly believe that's the case.

[00:38:32]As we were discussing offline, I I think there is warehouses in Hanoi with not all of them, obviously, but probably several hundred maybe.

[00:38:44]And just sitting in uh in a in a coffin or something and with a name on it and just waiting to say, "Okay, you give us this much money, you can have two of them."

[00:38:57]Or three of them.

[00:39:00]Or maybe there's a chart, you know, you you you hand over this much, we'll give you five. You hand over this much, we'll give you 10.

[00:39:07]So, >> Shakedown in its purest form right there, actually.

[00:39:12]And it's it's nothing new. They did it to the French. So, I don't Yeah, I mean, hell, that's uh I mean, as we've learned, I mean, North Korea did it has been doing it for for for years. I mean, uh I Yeah, it's >> It's a It's a political and and economic game is what it is. And until one side gets all that it wants, it it's going to be piecemeal. I mean, I honestly believe that the DPAA doesn't do enough field excavations in Southeast Asia each year.

[00:39:50]I mean, uh the numbers I've heard is at a max maybe six to eight total.

[00:39:59]Uh in Vietnam and Laos, I have not heard a lot about Cambodia in a very long time.

[00:40:05]So, I don't know what any status is there. I mean, there's still 80 three Americans still missing there. So, Mhm.

[00:40:15]>> [clears throat] >> And some of those are SOG guys, too.

[00:40:18]Jeez. Mhm.

[00:40:21]Um let's see here. As a matter of fact, everybody except for Jerry on the list today uh is is in Laos. Uh well, I take that back. Uh Madison Strohlein was South Vietnam. But uh next on the list is uh and I'm we're not going to cover all that much on next for two reasons. One, you can listen to Lynn Black and uh read about Till writing about it. Um but it's uh the killed in action uh but again, body not recovered from Laos, the October 5th, 1968 mission with uh Lynn Black and uh RT Alabama when uh Mr. Strie took over the team from Tim Shoffner, who we actually had on and he discussed this whole situation and how how bad it was. Um Hell of a hell of a gun battle. Um bad all the way around in uh Oscar 8. Um if it wasn't bad enough just running a SOG mission there in Oscar 8 doing it. Got a base camp. Um immediate ambush and uh they're they're fighting. Pointman's killed um along with Mr. Strie and Mr. Lynn and Mr. Steve Engle key have to make the terrible decision once they regroup uh and declare a cove a free fire emergency that they've got to leave the area, which means leave um Mr. Strie's body. But uh Hell of a fight because uh actually uh two more King Bees were shot down. Um there's some some photos floating around out there of of uh the King Bees burning and two Jolly Greens um actually are are in on the the uh the pickup, but one comes in and saves Alabama. Jolly Green 10, flown by Major Albert Wester, and Senior Airman Greg Lawrence were actually killed in the uh in the shoot down of one of the Jolly Green Giants. So, all around ridiculous gun battle. Sad story because as you've heard or if you've read Mr. Lynn's book, the tailgunner stays behind and tells Mr. Lynn keep going. I stay, I die. And about the time Mr. Lynn turns his back and gets to walking, he hears gunshots going off and overcome with grief, charges back, fights, should have probably been killed himself as he would say, kills two more NBA, and gets the hell out of dodge.

[00:43:05]Very sad story.

[00:43:07]As I've heard, the Stroud family is still around. They don't much like talking about the incident as you can well imagine.

[00:43:15]Would not want to either. So, we're going to do the Stroud family a bit of justice and mention the incident, honor him, and move on. So, we're not going to be covering much on Mr. Mr. Stroud today.

[00:43:28]Um but this our our next soldier we're honoring we will discuss a little bit about because very well known in the military world and especially the SOG world. He's declared at the moment still MIA.

[00:43:45]They've found presumptive death.

[00:43:48]By all accounts, talking to some of the guys on the ground, he was probably killed on the ground. Some say he was captured.

[00:43:57]It looks like he might have been captured, but talking to one of the men that was on the Bright Light, Nick Brokhausen actually one of them, it looks like uh that Madison may have fought, shot, and and actually died before he got out of the the tree because he died on the third Halo mission led by Billy Waugh and unfortunately as we've heard with a lot of the saw guys and a lot of the the missions went bad team separated and Madison in particular landed badly. He landed in a tree. I've heard definitely broke one of his arms been told it was on both arms. I've been told it was an arm and a leg either way he was bombed up. I believe there's radio contact saying he's got two bum wings.

[00:44:46]So all around very very sad great guy spoken to a lot of gentlemen that served with him just a just an outstanding young dude that you'd like to hang out with drink a beer with hang out just really good dude really good recon man.

[00:45:05]Wouldn't have been chosen to to do the recon mission with Billy Waugh if he or the the Halo if he wouldn't have been but this case very interesting because there's also conflicting reports by men not only on the ground but at the compound listening to the radio saying that Madison radioed he was okay alive busted wings and then some say they heard on the earth 10 a firefight and then when Mr. Nick and some of the other people I have some documentation I wish I had it out but I wasn't going to cover all that much because there's a ton of information to read about this that he got up there and it looked like there'd been a gun battle on both sides car 15 ammo AK ammo and Madison went out fighting on his shield so to speak but he's another one you know just because he was shot we can't presume or at that point you you kind of would presume he he'd probably die from infection from something because NVA not known for taking care of guys. Um they they might would have knowing he was something special jumping. Uh but I still would like to think he probably died. But the question I have is did they get his body and did they still have it?

[00:46:26]Yeah and if they did uh and he did die in their custody or whatever or or after the gun battle, did where where did they bury him? If If they buried Yeah if they if they buried him and if they did, is there anybody alive that can say I I know where? Because what I'm finding from research is again it's about money.

[00:46:51]You know they'll the researchers that go there for these for these excavations will say, "Hey, you know, we're offering such and such amount if you can help find the coordinates or the supposed location of this place." And sometimes the location is is miles off from where the report had said.

[00:47:12]But hey, you know, if you are someone living in a country, you know, like Cambodia or well especially Laos, I mean our money is going to carry a lot more weight and help a villager or whatever because they don't they don't see that kind of money.

[00:47:30]So sometimes they're going to they're going to say whatever they can say to get to get the money whether there's success with with the information or not. So Um And you do have cases we've spoken to Mike that time to where they were looking for um I believe an aviator uh saw related and the gentleman said, "Oh yeah, we we saw him right here, you know, he he crashed, parachute, uh and I think they even had a piece of a parachute or whatnot, but they managed to get on the ground, started digging, started finding remains, and it ended up being a totally different airman. They were looking for an Air Force veteran, I think it was a Navy A-4 or something like that. So, you can have gentlemen or or folks, villagers in Vietnam say, "Oh, yeah, yeah." And they may not, like you said, it may not be your case. They're doing what they can to get money, but you're still going to happen on something or get another lead to something. Uh, it it's it's it's Sounds like it's the Wild West, to be quite frank with you.

[00:48:40]Yeah, it Yeah, that I've heard that uh described that way, too. Um, you know, and a country like Laos compared to Vietnam now is still so desolate and and uh, they're not They're their country is not is is not as advanced with infrastructure like Vietnam is now. If you If unless you're in the city, you know, it it's still like it was Not to the extent, but like it was back then. I mean, unless you're in Laos in particular, uh, and Cambodia for that matter, but unless you were in the the the bigger cities, it there's not going to be, like you said, roads out to all of these villages. Uh, you're You may have to build your own road. You're going to be doing a lot of cutting. Uh, but but yeah, I mean, it there's just >> And not not to mention, especially in Laos, the most heavily bombed country in the world, uh, the danger of the unexploded ordnance is is just insane. Yeah, I don't think that's spoken or thought about as much. Uh, people getting over there and and not thinking the dangers that that these guys and gals are are doing to to to while they're searching.

[00:49:57]That's another admirable trait. They are literally putting themselves in danger.

[00:50:04]I think actually one of uh Gosh, was it Mr. Jim? I think it was Mr. Jim. They ended up getting set upon by uh by bandits, you know, you can get in Cambodia uh and and you know, get get robbed, uh get shook down. I mean, all kinds of stuff going on when they see wealthy, not only Americans, but just wealthy people there, you know.

[00:50:30]It it's uh yeah, I've heard some some crazy stories of of of people going back and and working and stuff both from Mike and from veterans, but uh Mhm. Um Our uh our next um that we're we're we're honoring is uh another missing in action um presumptive finding of death. Um this one I I know the name and I'm a little bit familiar with, but not all that familiar with the mission and and where exactly uh he was, but it was Mr. William Wentworth Stubbs, um 20th October 1969 in Laos. He was with RT California and last time uh he was seen he was shot several times in an ambush uh enemy ambush of his team and seen slumped forward and was presumed dead.

[00:51:22]And of course, again, due to enemy activity, team was unable to retrieve his body. A bright light the next day found no sign of him, his equipment, or the battle that had taken place. So, the NVA clearly got him and police the area like crazy. So, >> here's another here's another comment to that very thought. Uh North Vietnamese soldiers were rewarded very well A for killing an American. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:51:52]>> And B, especially if they could produce a body.

[00:51:56]They I mean they would get medals, they would get money. So again, they could have dragged off his body and shown it to their commander, taken a picture, and then they get their what what they're what they're awarded with, and then they did then they just say, "Okay, bury him there."

[00:52:12]Because again, what you mentioned is critical. You mentioned like cities.

[00:52:17]Um because I I've seen film footage uh from the war where Americans were buried, and you can actually see like the cross or the marker, and it has their name on it. But again, that's like in Hanoi and places like that, not along the the >> The trail and such. trail or or some other cities, but so we know that they they buried bodies.

[00:52:42]It's just a matter of where, and are there people alive still that can show and point out, "Well, yeah, that's where that guy was buried."

[00:52:52]So I mean because they Wow. They uh I just saw this, and this was last updated in 20 uh 2002 by RT California member Mr. Bob Patch Mose. Um they were very deep into Laos, almost into Thailand. They were east of Nakhon Phanom.

[00:53:14]Um So not only did they launch out of NKP, but they were right I mean right there on the border with Thailand. I mean they are deep deep in enemy territory here.

[00:53:30]And oh Wow. Yes. See, now that's making me think if they're uh this close to Thailand, because I again we've heard uh if you've listened to um or read uh Mr. Help me out uh Brandon um RT Florida the CC CC the Yes, Mr. Dale. Um if you remember Mr. Dale's latest book, he talks about um Mr. DeLuca who goes missing in an in this area when he goes to look for uh POW/MIA's and it's actually from what I understood, it was Thai bandits that killed him and the lady that was helping / working with him and uh robbed him and uh left his body there to be discovered and they thank God got his body back, which is ridiculous to think he went AWOL and did all this and they were able to get him back, but I'm beginning to think and wonder on that.

[00:54:34]They're so close to Thailand, that's a whole 'nother issue. Uh if if it gets them to Thailand and then working with I mean, all of this as you get deeper, it's just a pardon the pun, a minefield of of issues.

[00:54:53]It's it it's a it's a it's a conspiracy theorist uh dream. Oh, absolutely.

[00:55:00]>> this this this whole issue. I mean, I could probably sit here for about an hour and just write things down and go, "Well, it could be this. It could be that."

[00:55:09]You know, or I mean John, you don't even I mean, if you want to really get into deep stuff also as we're moving along here because well, this will get me going, but John McCain and John Kerry uh what what they did um declaring it a non-issue and actually I'll go so far as to say and I've seen articles stating this to to to to to back me up, uh fought actively to say there was no MIA, uh, POW MIA issue from Vietnam or Southeast Asia. And when you hear not only two Vietnam veterans say that, but two sitting congressmen, uh, and and senators say that, it is, uh, bewildering, disgusting, uh, throw in the adjective, uh, or or or verb you'd like to uh, on that to to describe those two men. Uh, I respect both their service, but the more I learn about those two guys in particular, we won't get political here, but uh, just shows you. I mean, it is a snake's den, a a a ball of snakes trying to to trying to find our our our guys, our our best men.

[00:56:24]>> think it boils down to a phrase that the organization that is tasked with trying to find the remains, particularly for Southeast Asia, when they hold these family meetings every once in a while, they I think they're often they often tell the families what the families want to hear.

[00:56:46]As far as to to to keep them, uh, placated, to be quite frank.

[00:56:52]>> placated or or quiet or or, you know, To keep them from going to the press and making a, uh, >> they can say, "Well, we're looking for this guy." Well, show me some proof.

[00:57:02]Show me some some solid proof that you're you're you're doing this. You know, don't >> Show me some gas mileage to Asia on on the the DPA credit card.

[00:57:13]>> or show me some, you know, photos of what you found or, I mean, again, like we talked offline, I don't I don't know why they won't declassify every document there is.

[00:57:27]Because it the only thing I can think of again is is embarrassment of people that were involved in the issue that are still around. Mhm. Mhm. [clears throat] And embarrassment as a whole for the government that >> Absolutely. You know, we knew this guy was alive here. Here was the evidence.

[00:57:43]We could have gotten him and we chose not to. So, now And I'm I'm wondering and and I know like everything that we wanted classified on not like the Kennedy assassination or anything, but like uh incidences uh I'm I'm blanking on one, but they will say it will give away it will uh endanger or give away uh intelligence gathering methods. I would like to think uh I would know I would not like to think, but I would I I know that the government would use that card while saying this is why we can't give it out because there's people in Asia that were working with us before the war ended that are you know, maybe in positions of power or whatever. And it's like, you know, it it's 60 years later. If they're still in power, they're decrepit old people that, you know, are are like I I shouldn't say that, but like our vets, they're old, you know? And there's nothing more they can do.

[00:58:42]Embarrassed out of life, you know? It's And their and their memories are fading, no disrespect. I mean, that's another problem with the with the uh people that are interviewed in Southeast Asia. Their their their memories are fading. They're not going to be like, "Oh, yeah, I remember exactly where that happened and what, you know, I mean, Not with people in the heat of the war with all No, yeah, that Or they may just want to forget it all together. I mean, because it's such a bad memory on both sides. So, >> Absolutely.

[00:59:12]It's uh it mhm mhm mhm mhm it it is uh it is quite quite um quite the issue here. Um gosh, and again here um MIA presumptive finding of death for Mr. uh Randy Suber uh Laos 13 November 1969.

[00:59:34]1969 68 and 69 I keep hearing back and forth as the most dangerous year for SOG. Of course 68 death wise with the FOB attack at FOB 4, but man 69 is really bad on this list with with with SOG men being missing in action. Um Randy was C at CCN the RT Rattler 1-1. The team was attacked.

[01:00:01]God, his weapon jammed and he was shot, fell to the ground and was unresponsive when they began calling his name trying to reach him. The position was overrun by the enemy and the bodies were left behind. I don't have anything pulled up at the moment, but if I remember correctly he and Indige died with him as well. Um Very very sad. Let me see if I can pull some listings up for Mr. Suber.

[01:00:33]Um I can't.

[01:00:41]Um I could have sworn someone else with RT Rattler. There was another American on RT Rattler that went MIA or um No, that's Dennis Neill and um Gosh, I'm forgetting his name. Um >> Is it King? No.

[01:01:05]Ernest King?

[01:01:07]It could be. Oh, gosh, my brain got so much names floating around here.

[01:01:14]Let's see Randy Suber might be SOG.

[01:01:19]Let me to to that. That's a DPAA.

[01:01:23]It's got his listing. DPA assess individuals case to be in the analytical category of the active pursuit. So, what do you think the analytical category means of an active pursuit? Well, first of all, uh analytical I would say if they're even pursuing this case still to start with.

[01:01:48]Um they're probably still looking at data. The again, if that's if they're even I think my honest opinion, I don't think they're I don't think they're looking That's what makes me scratch my head every time I look at a case and see active pursuit.

[01:02:03]Well, okay, great. So, that means they're that they could hopefully still be found. That's great. But, what kind of active pursuit? Is it just a name on a file?

[01:02:14]Or or are they actually out there looking?

[01:02:18]And I think it's actually boils down to just a name on the file.

[01:02:23]That analytical um part uh key part of that uh immediately jumped out of me. If your category categorizing um the active category, shall we say, then we're splitting hair here. Like you just said, well, how active is the case?

[01:02:44]Analytical means are we sitting around thinking, is he here? Is he there? You know, you know, is anything going Like you said, is anything going I think a lot of these these a lot of these cases in that category have set have set on well, nowadays probably digital storage uh just sitting there because like I said, I think the numbers I've heard six to eight cases a year in in Southeast Asia. That's unacceptable.

[01:03:11]That is unacceptable.

[01:03:12]>> can't you can't tell me I mean I think it would be better to say, you know, because I don't see them update them like yearly, like say, "Okay, well, it was active pursuit." or like changing it to maybe actively pursued, which would be a whole different ballgame. That tells me if it's actively pursued, that means they're they're out there and looking. Mhm. Mhm. But I don't think the 1,500 plus cases that they have uh still that they're that they're still looking for in all three well, four countries, actually. Uh I don't think that they're they're actively pursuing them except for the eight a year because they don't have the personnel and they don't have the budget and, you know, they I would say they also might look at percentages, like, "Well, there's an 80% chance we might find something." or 70.

[01:04:18]And they're not going to If I said, "Well, there's only about a 38% chance that we're going to find a tooth or a bone or whatever to identify this guy."

[01:04:27]they're not going to waste the resources and the money I was just fixing to say.

[01:04:32]that particular case. They want something that they can actually They want to clear clear the number. Clear the number.

[01:04:40]>> get them off the list. Get them off the list because uh There there were recent recoveries at Lima site uh 85 last year, which is great. Mhm. But what shocked me was I don't know the exact month, but I think they recovered the the remains in I want to say May of 25.

[01:05:05]And they had the guy identified by like probably August.

[01:05:12]Which is like super quick.

[01:05:15]You know, like so either they knew some previous information that was that was going to make this a find and a quick recovery or there was so much left of that particular person's remains or whatever that they could do it that quick because what I've found is with these Southeast Asia cases, I think they take longer than World War II in Korea, the ones that they're the the ones that they're able to actually pull up a body or or or actual remains of someone. Mhm. So I don't know how they were able to do it so quick.

[01:05:52]I mean, it's usually 2 to 3 years after a recovery. If you if you research the cases of the ones that have been recovered, it'll give you a whole timeline and it'll tell you, "Okay, this is where he This is when he went missing. This is when we started looking. This is when we found remains.

[01:06:06]This is when we brought him back. This is when they were identified. This is when we notified the family." And it's not it's not like a 6-month window or or even a year. It's 2 or 3 or 4 years before you know, they have a positive identity on on a case. So I don't know. It's it's strange how they can just find one set identify them very quickly like that and release it but yet I I I also believe this.

[01:06:37]There are remains that have been brought back from Southeast Asia, not only recently, but from years and years and years ago probably, that are still in the the the forensic laboratory still waiting to be Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

[01:06:52]>> identified. I'm pretty sure of that. Oh, yeah.

[01:06:56]I would be willing to bet money on it.

[01:06:59]>> They're going to prioritize cases that they can identify the quickest. That's that's my opinion.

[01:07:06]You know. I I agree. I I agree wholeheartedly with that as well.

[01:07:12]Absolutely.

[01:07:13]>> because I know I know of at least three cases this year three cases of remains coming back from Vietnam and Laos that hopefully we're going to get a answer as to who hopefully I mean and that's the other thing just because they find evidence like say they find some bone fragments and such well sadly sometimes what they've found is yeah they're bone fragments but after they do all the testing and they realize well they weren't human.

[01:07:44]It was a it was a dog or a or a monkey or you know so it it's just sad.

[01:07:53]And you know, I just think of the families.

[01:07:56]I mean, a lot of these families have have accepted, you know, look he's gone.

[01:08:02]They're you know and he's he died wherever you know, wherever it was and we're we're going to move on with our lives.

[01:08:10]And that that's fine. That's you know, if you're able to do that but there there are some families out there that still wonder, you know, what happened and they they refuse to give up.

[01:08:23]They refuse to just accept an answer oh they were killed they're gone. You know, that's not good enough for them and that's the way it should be Mhm. for these [clears throat] families.

[01:08:33]They should have they should have closure.

[01:08:37]And I I I think another stumbling block as crazy as it sounds but is this was such an unpopular war to begin with that a lot of people just want to shelve it and just be like we don't want to deal with you know, the the resulting aftermath of you know, not only the POW/MIA issue but other issues too. Agent Orange and all that and you know and just but there are there are families there are families out there that will not will not let this die if you will. They will not you know just say okay whatever I'm going to move on. You know they they you take the barren 52 case in Laos.

[01:09:24]I don't know if you've studied that a lot but or not the one about the EC-47 that went down in February of 73 and there's a whole there's a whole another we could do a whole another show on just that case because you know it was after the peace accords were signed in Vietnam and the plane went down and and the government said well they're all they're all dead yet there's evidence that you know four or five of the crewmen were marched off the you know by the Pathet Lao to to the North Vietnamese or whatever but um the the thing is the good thing is that there are individuals and families that will not just give up on this you know um I've mentioned every I think every show I've done with you I I hope in my lifetime that you know one day I'll wake up and I'll read somewhere that my missing individual will his remains are found you know and here's another case too that you know we could do an individual show on really with all the with all the intelligence and live sighting reports that I've seen and for this one individual and but there's so many there's so many things that could be done to hopefully expedite the entire process of identifying individuals and the whole issue is itself uh, itself because I think it would benefit both countries if we just, like I said earlier, just, you know, let's work together.

[01:11:07]Or we could do, you know, we could do the tit-for-tat. Hey, you helped us find our guy, we're going to help you find one. Oh, we found one for you, now help us find another one of ours, and then we'll do the same thing, you know, for you.

[01:11:17]Because I don't know. I mean, it's it's a sad it's a sad issue that I wouldn't say that it's lost steam, if you will, but it's lost its interest compared to what it was in the '80s and the early '90s.

[01:11:36]Mhm. Because in the in the '80s it was a hotbed issue. I mean, and then in the '90s when they when they started having more live sightings, and then they did the congressional hearings, and, you know, and they were showing photos of people, and uh, people were actually interested and were paying attention.

[01:11:57]And realizing, hey, you know, maybe this maybe this person is still alive or whatever.

[01:12:03]But now it's I mean, I don't know.

[01:12:07]It's >> Yeah, it's, uh, unfortunately now with the Yeah, it's all overloaded with stuff on Twitter and all that. It's it's such a >> People are people are interested in so many other things. I mean, Yeah, it's a non-issue now, unfortunately.

[01:12:21]>> mention the you mention the word Saugus or somebody, or somebody asked him, and someone's asked asked me the other day, "Well, what is that?"

[01:12:27]Yeah.

[01:12:28]>> and I had to give him a little dissertation, you know, like, "Oh, this is which is great cuz I like when people do that." But it's but it's not like it's a, you know, if it were like an NFL thing or something, people would be jumping at the bit to learn more or being more involved and and, you know, uh, but you have you have to hats off have to go to people like Carol Hardlicka, you know?

[01:12:55]Her husband's been been missing, gosh, uh 61 years this year.

[01:13:04]And she's she's still she's a firebrand of the issue. She still refuses to to let it go.

[01:13:14]Yeah, it's uh you meet some amazing people in the community. I've uh interviewed a a few uh family members and they absolutely are amazing strong people. Uh it is it's uh Yeah, um And you know, it just it it just I mean I wasn't even live during the war, you weren't either. I mean, but it just it just boils my blood. It makes me angry.

[01:13:41]Yeah, I know.

[01:13:42]And we've uh let's see. We've got uh one more name here on our list today, um out of Laos, again, unfortunately, in 1967, July 12th, um he was killed in action and uh known to be killed in action uh out of FOB 1 with ST Georgia.

[01:14:03]Um They said mortally wounded in the attack. Uh the sole surviving team member was actually pulled out by Billy Waugh and uh bright light searches were sent in and uh much like our case earlier, um the entire area had been policed up and uh the other American uh Samuel God, this last name, I apologize, Almendarez. Um >> Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah.

[01:14:31]>> Yeah.

[01:14:31]He uh both of them were listed as KIA BNR and uh they that that group went back a day 2 days later and that's a lot of time, but still for it to be completely police as they are describing in the area of in in the in the report is is is crazy and that completely disappearing.

[01:14:57]Um Okay, I thought wow, here's an issue that's going to probably throw a kink in their plan.

[01:15:07]Um on on on finding uh these these MIA Um it looks like Oh no, that that's I'm sorry, that's the website talking about 10's changing.

[01:15:22]Um target coordinates. So they they were indicating making it sound like they changed a the complete target area like Hotel 9 going to Oscar and and I was about to say that's that's really going to throw a wrench in things, but that's not the case. I apologize about that.

[01:15:43]Um I am going to Wow, and there is a great great posting on the secret war the loud list.

[01:15:53]I don't know are you in that group as well?

[01:15:57]Um Brian?

[01:15:58]>> the loud list. I've never I've never heard of that one. Is that on Facebook?

[01:16:02]Yeah, yeah.

[01:16:03]>> I'd have to look that I'd have to look that up. I think that might be Uh although there are missing from there too the Air America cruise. There are.

[01:16:15]Uh I think that might be uh just about Air America cruise. I'm not sure, but but no, I'm I've I've not uh uh I've not I've not been on that one. Can you text me the Yeah, it's definitely a Air America site for sure.

[01:16:36]And again, they they're showing some MIA live sighting newspaper by Paul Brinkley newspaper articles and such. Um and I've actually got a Let me see here. I'll uh Let me save this before I lose this. That way I can share it not only to you, Brandon, but also the group page. Let me hyperlink this real quick. Uh it's a great breakdown because it's actually um interviews with um men on the ground and I think Billy Waugh might actually give um a little play by play on what he saw because uh as earlier it said he was a uh Covey writer or in a helicopter searching for survivors and ended up pulling some of the uh well, the sole surviving team member out.

[01:17:26]Um And that's the That's the other thing about Laos as a whole. I I describe it as the black hole of this issue because it's like Don't get me wrong, Vietnam has jungle, too, and stuff, but but it it's like they were just for that particular part of the secret war, that they were just swallowed up. Like >> Oh, yeah.

[01:17:48]Uh even even when killed, like where where did the bodies go? That's, you know, did they uh did did the enemy just pick them up and they could have thrown them in a river for all we know. We I mean, I don't know, but or buried them or dragged them somewhere. It's like It's like a giant black hole where they just are gone. There's no There's no sign of, you know, or what signs there are, there's no indication of, you know, like you said, they placed up the area and and everything's gone.

[01:18:25]>> Yeah, there's a lack of signs. There's There's not just no signs. There's uh a lack of anything.

[01:18:31]>> it's not like it's not like along the Ho Chi Minh Trail that they that they buried a body and put like a marker or a cross or whatever. Oh, this is whoever.

[01:18:41]You know, I'm not going to say they didn't put a marker, but I certainly don't think they they bothered to put a name. So, No, they're not going to know his name.

[01:18:51]There's not going to be any no no no ID cards, no no nothing.

[01:18:58]Uh where dog tags or carry ID to begin with. So, >> Yeah, there's Oh, unless they put American or what have you. They're Yeah.

[01:19:07]>> Right. It's uh They might have They might have put them in if they knew they were SOG, which is possible.

[01:19:13]They might have put like American SOG soldier or something like that.

[01:19:17]>> Yeah.

[01:19:18]Yeah.

[01:19:19]Um let me look here. Unfortunately, uh we are going to have to cut it short.

[01:19:25]Well, oh wow, we've gone almost an hour and a half. I didn't even realize we were on here. Um we do have uh a whole 'nother section of the list, which we probably knock out. I've We've got two interviews Monday and Tuesday, and we can probably knock them out uh end up doing another MIA show next week and finishing or uh next weekend, and then we can start um picking individual cases cuz several people in the chat have said they'd like to to hear uh some individual cases. So, um and I'll let you pick the first one, and that way you can give me one and I can start looking some stuff up. So, um and as we close out here, um Mr. Terry mentioned still have uh 50 SOG men, um mostly in Laos and uh several in Cambodia still missing. So, And not not to mention also the air the air crew and support personnel. Absolutely.

[01:20:21]Absolutely. the the OP 35 ground people, just the I mean the guys that provided support and on the helicopters and the A-1s and and the, you know, F-4s and and whatever other aircraft may have provided >> A-4s, F-4s, yeah. I mean, you got all kinds of stuff going in, especially Laos, like you said, being the most heavily bombed area, you had the armada of the American air power going in there, you know. Um it it's uh Yeah, doing these shows always bums me out, man. I'm glad we're honoring um the the the vets, but jeez, when you get into it, it is uh God, it's sad.

[01:21:05]>> I'm also glad we're kind of doing it today because next weekend is a memorial is Memorial Day weekend, and you know, I it's well, it's hard for both you and I for personal reasons, and and I also just I take time to pause and think, you know, think about you know, my adopted MIA, and and I always think in my mind, you know, how how long did this guy languish?

[01:21:30]Or is he still languishing? Or is he happily assimilated into the into the culture? I mean, he'll be he'll be uh 80 he turned 82 this month. So, you know, there's still I mean, if he's able to to to adapt to the culture and and where he's at and he could still, you know, be a lot you just I you it's that big question. You just don't know. Yeah.

[01:21:59][clears throat] Yeah, um well, we uh we will get into some more of these uh very sad, unfortunate, but need to share these stories next week. Uh we'll get into some more of them, and uh I appreciate all of you guys joining us. Um yep, we're going to I'm we're probably going to break down uh and and start covering some some MIAs uh from from each of the special projects.

[01:22:28]Yeah, and we'll be having Terry on sometime here soon.

[01:22:32]Um Yeah, all righty guys. Brandon, appreciate you joining us. I'm glad you got your internet working. I thought I was going to have to finish up alone there. I was like, oh no.

[01:22:41]>> Yeah, yeah, I'm glad it I'm glad it came back up, too. So Yeah. But yeah, whenever you're whenever you're ready, I'll I'll look up a case, too, and or you know, that there's a there's a whole bunch of them floating around in my >> So Oh, yeah.

[01:22:56]I'll I'll stay in touch with you and we'll get the the last seven names on the list next weekend and we'll go ahead and get a a a incident and start researching and getting the show ready for it for the first one non SOA list, shall we say. But all righty guys, we will see you guys later. Hope you all have a wonderful day. Brandon, thank you, brother. Hope you have a good day.

[01:23:22]>> Yep.