Case In Point | Is South Africa backtracking on human rights? | Usindiso fire update

追加: 2026-06-05

[00:00:25]Good evening and welcome. Lovely to be with you again. I'm Joan Joseph. This is Case in Point. Coming up on the program, South Africa's Constitution enshrines human rights for all within its borders.

[00:00:37]But can the country fulfill its obligations to migrants as ordinary South Africans battle for access to resources?

[00:00:58]And nearly three years on, one man may take the fall for a fire that killed 76 and left survivors in deplorable circumstances. We ask whether other implicated parties will ever face justice.

[00:01:14]So our top story, tensions around migration are rising at unprecedented levels since the start of democracy. The human sciences research council says its South African social attitude survey shows that in 20 2003 rather just over a third of South Africans would welcome all immigrants. In 2021 that dropped to just over a quarter who'd accept migrants. Last year that number further halved to just 15%. Organizations like Operation Dudulla and March and March have taken a strong stance against the presence of migrants in South Africa despite South Africa's constitution extending its protections, equality, dignity, and justice not just to citizens but to everyone within its borders. 30 years on, Yulis Jamela asks, has the country met its constitutional obligations towards migrants in the past three decades?

[00:02:10]I will continue to entertain the hope that there has emerged a cater of leaders in my own country and region on my continent and in the world which will not allow that any should be denied their freedom as we were.

[00:02:31]That any should be turned into refugees as we were.

[00:02:38]Outlining its agenda as part of the world of nations, South Africa set out to build a society founded on human dignity, equality, and freedom. At the dawn of its democracy, the country ratified many international human rights and other protocols, including those protecting refugees, asylum seekers, and migrants.

[00:03:01]Its new constitution extended fundamental rights not only to citizens but to everyone living within its borders and the courts asserted these rights through precedent setting cases in favor of migrants.

[00:03:17]Those included labor rights, their children's rights to basic education, the rights of undocumented migrants not to be detained for prolonged periods, and the rights to seek asylum.

[00:03:35]Post aarted South Africa started experiencing anti-migrant sentiments from 1994 from the Bule Kaya youth protests in Alexandra Township. the 1998 anti-forigner rally that saw three migrants being thrown out of a moving train to the 2008 nationwide xenophobic riots that resulted in over 60 deaths.

[00:04:01]The country continues to experience intermittent protests, particularly against undocumented migrants in recent times.

[00:04:15]The growing pressure on public services and high unemployment have fueled debates about who should benefit from the limited resources.

[00:04:24]>> It's a genuine complaint that is being raised about high levels of unemployment is correct. It's genuine issues that are being raised about high levels of crime. That's correct. That's genuine.

[00:04:38]What is not genuine, what is not correct is to say the reason we have high levels of unemployment in South Africa is because of foreign nationals.

[00:04:46]>> In 2023, the then Home Affairs Minister Aron Mutuali gazetted the white paper on citizenship, immigration, and refugee protection to restructure what he said was the country's fragmented migration system and stem systematic abuse by some undocumented migrants.

[00:05:06]The Department of Home Affairs has no idea as to how many illegal immigrants are in South Africa. However, immigration services between deport between 15,000 and 20,000 illegal foreigners every year and at a huge cost.

[00:05:24]The number is on the increase. The policy initially proposed the country's withdrawal from the 1951 United Nations Refugees Convention, but was criticized for reversing compliance with international human rights law. Its 2026 revision overturns the decision, but still draws criticism for allegedly using migrants as political scapegoats.

[00:05:50]Yuliss Jamea, case in point.

[00:06:21]So what are South Africa's obligations from an international standpoint. United Nations special rauta on the human rights of migrants gad madi joins us online to reflect on this. Mr. Maldi, good evening to you and thank you for your time. South Africa we know has signed some important documents including the 1951 UN con convention relating to the status of refugees, the 1969 organization of African unity convention governing the specific aspects of refugee problems in Africa among others. What obligations does the country have to migrants based on these two agreements?

[00:06:57]>> Well, thank you very much for having me on your program. Well, first of all, all countries are party to those conventions and protocols. They are obliged to provide protection to migrant and refugees to facilitate the pathways to the country. This is an international obligation where supposedly no country can escape from.

[00:07:26]It is an important issue all around the world. Well, there's some countries that respect international law. others as we are witnessing uh through the time being some countries do not respect international law and I think you know which country I mean but South Africa as party to those convention it has an obligation to protect migrant and refugee to facilitate their life to provide facilities uh to them it is very important for a country like South Africa which is supposed to be a leading country in the continent to give a good example about how the country is dealing and protecting migrants and refugees. This is an important issue and I'm sure the country and the government of the country is very much conscious about that.

[00:08:34]What are your views on the situation facing migrants in South Africa right now?

[00:08:40]>> Well, in any country, there is nothing called 100% protection.

[00:08:46]There are several issues. But if we are talking about the situation in particular about irregular migrants who exist in South Africa, those migrant are human beings and they have rights as well and South Africa is party to the global compact for migration and it has approved all regulations of the global compact for migration and I'm sure the government is expectedly to do its best in order to protect those migrants.

[00:09:25]There are so much talk about xenophobia, about hate speech, uh about migrant and so on in many countries in the world with regard to the rise of the right-wing parties. And this is the very serious issue that I have addressed in my several reports. But it is the media responsibility to highlight the contributions of of migrant in host countries. They are contributing economically, socially and even politically as well. This is a very important issue that ought to be highlighted by the media in order to address the issue of xenophobia and hate speech against migrants.

[00:10:15]>> Mr. Madi, you know, it's a difficult situation because the media certainly tries to to to maintain that balance, but but we're we're hearing from ordinary South Africans who speak to us on the ground, that their complaints are being ignored, that they have genuine concerns in terms of competition for resources on the ground. Many would argue this is because South Africa's government has not delivered and that non-delivery has led to a situation where the the ordinary South African has turned his anger on the migrants in this country.

[00:10:48]Well, it's this is a very serious issue and I think the government should take note of what's happening and of course it is a responsibility first of all of the government as well as the NOS's and civil society and the society at large.

[00:11:10]Look how many migrants are in South Africa and now have been turned to be entrepreneurs. How many of them are paying taxes? How many of them are employing South African people? This issue ought to be highlighted in order for the public at large to better understand the situation. Of course, we cannot generalize any individual acts by migrants and generalize it like some migrants. Yes, they are committing crimes. It it it is a well-known fact but there are laws there are courts and there are decisions in this respect and those issue ought not to be generalized in order to address it to all migrants particularly I'm talking about even irregular migrants I'm not calling them illegitimate as I have heard or illegal as I have heard in the news they are irregular And they ought to be treated as such, not to be expelled, not to be badly treated.

[00:12:27]They have to have their individual assessment thoroughly assessed before any action taken against them.

[00:12:39]>> Mr. Mavi, can the rights contained in the UN agreements which which South Africa has agreed to um either you know in writing or orally be harmonized with the South African government's new white paper on immigration? I'm not sure if you have seen that paper.

[00:12:56]>> Yes. Well, first of all, human rights laws are universal.

[00:13:04]Even for countries who are not party to some of the human rights law, they ought to respect the principles set forth in those human rights convention. This is an important issue. Now human rights law, you United Nations human rights law are becoming customary international law.

[00:13:28]No country should evade any of them. Yes, South Africa is party to many and I I would add South Africa is giving a good example in the African continent for being party to many human rights uh convention and it ought to give an example to other country. Our continent is suffering from so many several conflict, several issues whether politically uh uh uh economically or even armed conflict.

[00:14:08]There ought to be a good example that gives some light to other countries and I think South Africa ought to be on the lead in this respect. M >> Mr. Madi, have you engaged South Africa on the current developments or do you intend to engage South Africa in the near future?

[00:14:30]>> Yes, I did. I did. As a matter of fact, I I sent several uh letter to the government. Even though over two years ago I have sent a letter to the government requesting an official visit to South Africa in order to assess the whole situation with regard to migrant and refugees.

[00:14:54]>> Has the government agreed to that?

[00:14:56]>> Unfortunately, I didn't receive a reply up till now from the government.

[00:15:03]>> That that is rather unfortunate. I mean, will you be engaging the rest of the continent on ways to to resolve the the socioeconomic issues, the political issues that perhaps influence migration into South Africa?

[00:15:17]>> Yeah. Yes. And I I think now there is a serious issue in Africa now with regard to all all of us will know with regard to the US flight transfer of migrant to some African countries. This is a very serious issue where those migrants are being detained when they are to African countries and no one would know about their fate. Their families do not know where they are and those who are being transferred are mainly not national of the country they are transferred to.

[00:15:55]This is a very serious issue. I'm engaging all the country who received a a migrant from the US and I usually send many letters. As a matter of fact, I have sent hundreds of letters to many African countries in this respect in order to respect the right of those migrants and not to deport them to their own countries where they may face persecution.

[00:16:26]This is an important issue and unfortunately I would say unfortunately that Africa many countries of Africa now are involved in this agreement with the United States. United States started with Latin America then turn it now to Africa. This is an extremely serious issue and I understand my mandate. My mandate is to promote and protect migrant. I'm not here to criticize any country. I'm here to facilitate the implementation of international obligation of every and each countries.

[00:17:07]I'm here to highlight the gap existing and provide solution through my recommendations to states. And I did visit an African countries last year was Moritania. And I also sent several letters to African countries asking for visits, official visits in order to assess the whole situation of migrants in Africa. And many African countries now are not only uh uh countries of origin, they are countries of transit and they are countries of destination. as well. Mind you, over 85% of migrants around the world are being hosted by third world countries, including African countries, of course.

[00:18:00]>> All right, we'll leave it there. Thank you so much for making the time to speak to us this evening. That was, of course, Gihad Madi. He is the United Nations special reporter on the human rights of migrants. Still to come, we ask lawyers for human rights and the Home Affairs Portfolio Committee to weigh in on migration in this country. Stay right where you are.

[00:18:42]We continue with the discussion now where party MP who sits on the department of home affairs portfolio committee in parliament sle nuban is with us and we are also joined in the studio by cen lung from lawyers for human rights refugee and migrant rights program. Uh Mr. Nubani I'm going to start with you this evening. I mean, we were warned 30 years ago that our borders were porous and that people were going to come pouring into our country as soon as we became an official constitutional democracy and that was exactly what happened. Is it clear to you why government did not take note of that warning?

[00:19:23]Yeah, thank you very much uh Joan and uh good morning, good good evening and good evening to your viewers at home and to the your guest there. Yeah, it it looked like Joan for for that 30 years that the government was warned and told that there is this a a bomb uh that is going to come and and and in fact affect the country. H it looked like the government never made any attempt to try and be proactive in solving these issues that we are in today. So we having issue today where the the the the challenges of immigration, citizenship and refugee management in the country has collapsed.

[00:20:09]Uh the system struggles to balance the national interest with intentional uh obligations leading to inconsistent application h and challenges ineffective enforcement against h irregular h migrant what the the gentleman called irregular in migrant according to me anything that is irregular in law becomes illegal. So that's that's where we are currently. The there's a whole lot of failures in the systems of home affairs. Uh Joan, it's failures in uh in poorest borders. It's failures in once people are inside to document them. It's failures in classification of uh who which person uh when you give them a visa must receive a a study visa must receive a work visa must receive a a a lowerass employment visa even must receive a visitor visa you know you know John there are people here in South Africa who have visitors visa but they've stayed for over 2 years and there's a syndicate in in home affairs where people that are inside Home Affairs, they take those visitor visa and keep on going to the to the borders just to get a stamp of renewal for that visitor visa. If you come to them, these people have been here for over 2 years, but they are under a a visitor visa. And if I I come to asylum seekers, the data for government is now it's unable to be classified. You can't classify that person is an asylum seeker, this person is a refugee, this person is a student, this person is a is coming to employed.

[00:21:50]The data as well is mixed. So we have a challenge in in the country of it's actually a home affairs that has collapsed in terms of managing immigration citizenship, refugee and asylum seekers system. That's why you've seen the the minister having a a new draft that has been advertised for all the people to have input on it. The mess we are seeing is because of those >> I I want to bring in M Miss Lung here because I think this issue of the the revised uh draft white paper is going to be a huge one going forward. Do you see it as a solution to the mess that Home Affairs has made allegedly according to Mr. Nuban?

[00:22:29]>> Sure. Thanks um for your question Joan.

[00:22:32]And one thing I I can agree with Mr. Unobani in excuse me uh one thing I can agree with Mr. Unobani is that the home affairs system has failed >> um and it is in crisis mode within the white paper. I think there are good novel ideas that the department of home affairs is proposing. I won't acknowledge that the state is taking steps to try recreate or create an effective system that actually is functional.

[00:23:01]>> But within the context of that and looking at um the laws that we have to adhere to the existing not only international conventions but the constitution it in itself. We have concerns about specific uh reforms that they're proposing which would in essence undo and count a lot of the international obligations and domestic obligations that we have towards um migration.

[00:23:26]>> I I do also want to acknowledge that the system and I think what what where we might deviate uh in views with Mr. in GBA is whilst there is an influx or it seems that there is an issue with the high numbers within the home affairs system. It is not due to just high numbers of people coming into the country. I think a lot of it has been over a span of a decade 15 years been caught in a system where they're unable to process and progress. So in in essence there should be a timeless application process but we've had situations and many actually almost around 98% of immediate rejection. So when we interrogate these decisions of the the state um adjudicating these process and applications, they are not applying the law in incorrectly and so that creates a backlog in appeals and reviews processes which should not have been necessary to begin with.

[00:24:26]>> Excuse me. So we must interrogate why um the system has been broken to begin with. And it's not just within home affairs. I mean we have to acknowledge 30 years into democracy our government systems have have failed not only migrants but citizens and and I think the point is is valid. How do we actually look at the the more systemic structural problems which is not actually about migration and that is the false narrative that removing migrants will solve the issues around access to healthare, access to education, unemployment or or um issues around corruption. I think we need to be addressing those systemic issues at the core. I >> I want to ask you about a couple of things in this white paper. For example, the the the f first country uh principle where you know when a migrant is fleeing, whichever country they land in first is the one in which they must stay. How do you feel about that? So um as lawyers for human rights and we we adhere to the international principles around refugee protection we don't agree with that principle and and there are a number of reasons for that. Firstly practically speaking there are complexities around people seeking um legitimate protection in certain countries. So once you arrive there you may find that you're actually because of your your individual individualized claim you're actually not able to seek legitimate protection in that state. And by applying this principle, you're automatically excluding people without ex um assessing their substantive claim on on individual basis, which is required of our refugees legislation. A question about all the court cases that have been brought by asylum seekers or refugees against the government. I mean, I I understand you've been involved in quite a few of those. Are they winnable >> by and large? So I think um historically speaking I think there has been a number of court cases and juristprudence that has been successful around advancing protection um not only of migrants but citizens as well and and we have seen by and large they have been successful in the courts and and I do want to acknowledge the courts are grappling with balancing of rights as as is in the constitution. However what we're seeing is a lack of implementation. So where we are advancing wins and victories in law and court judgments juristprudence what we're seeing is a failure to implement and and that is linked to the government not you know working towards building efficient systems across the board and not only within department of home affairs is is home affairs completely overshooting with this paper as a means of trying to cover up for for the mess they seem to have made in the last 30 years. Like I said, I think there are some really good ideas within the white paper, but there are also very problematic ideas, not only from a legal arguments perspective, but the practical implications of some of the um the the proposals that they'd like to make, such as the the the roaming courts um and just moving our refugee centers to to the borders. um that in our view will actually automatically create an opportunity for people to be excluded outright without doing following due process which is a a core tenant and and composition of of how we approach matters um within the constitution and our laws. Uh Mr. and Gumani let me bring you back in here and perhaps this will be my last question. and it's about constitutional review that we do this on a yearly basis as a country and and many of the the members of the public that I speak to via the media keep saying to me it's the constitution that needs to be changed to accommodate for the rights of South Africans first and the rights of migrants second. Do you feel that or do you feel we need to remain committed to our international obligations as as a country with one of the most advanced human rights constitutions in the world?

[00:28:18]Look, look, I I think South Africa went attempted to play in a first world global stage too early while it's at while it's at maturing level. Uh for example, they're trying to balance the international obligation and national obligation. South Africa has tried to treat themselves in the same class as the as as the as as the first world countries while it is a third that third world country on its own. For example, the the proposal that many people have proposed on that constitutional era that line that says South Africa belongs to all who live in it. Yes.

[00:28:57]>> United in diversity. And a lot of people are criticizing that that when you do that in a country that has many errors in in in infrastructure for example borderless borders then you are creating a dilemma in constitution.

[00:29:13]I'm just quoting one Joan as as a as an example of a dilemma in constitution.

[00:29:18]There are many other dilemma. The moment you you have a borderless borders and then a person go in into borders without being traced and just step in into the other country into South Africa without through the wrong route through the res there's a river or through where there's no border that person's right now are protected in South Africa because there's a constitutional error that says South Africa belongs to all who live in it now even this person now starts to have all was right. Remember this person came into the country unknown h not even documented and and hence people are putting that constitutional review. So there's a whole lot of things that causes people propose h that that that those proposals on on constitutional uh review. I think that there's been a lot what what is interesting this time around on constitutional proposal is that people of South Africa now have have have matured in in educating themselves and knowing their rights more than they didn't know them in 94 when this constitution was was formed.

[00:30:28]Remember a population of South Africa they never played a role in this formulation of constitution and they were never given a rights to have inputs or to vote for it. It was just a click of leaders of certain organizations that met somewhere in in in in Kemp Park and drafted the constitution for all these South Africans. Now what is nice is that South Africans are now much more aware and they are much more have woken up about what is their rights, what is wrong with this constitution, where are fixes needs to be. The proposals that have been submitted on on this white paper is mountaneous and I doubt even home affairs will be able to cope with it with it and and some of the proposal are so mindblowing. They prioritize South African rights more than they prioritize rights of even refugees of immigrants of a lot of things that were a loophole all along. So it's an interesting days for this constitutional review that's going to happen because it's pil it's piling up. There's even there's even an organization I think it's called the constitutional review NPO that just focus on specifically on constitutional review because they've picked up that this constitutional was very much badly badly badly crafted join.

[00:31:47]>> All right, we're going to leave it there. Thank you so much for speaking to us this evening. Cia Gan there. He is uh from the home affairs portfolio committee and the reason he made himself available to speak to us is because we opened that invitation to home affairs and they declined to come onto the program to answer the questions we had for them. Thank you very much from lawyers for human rights for joining us on the show. Coming up after the break, does the law favor some while holding others to account? We look into the Usindis of Fire almost 3 years later to see who exactly is facing the music.

[00:32:20]Stay with us.

[00:32:30]Welcome back. This week, the USO building arson case that's dragged on for some time in the South Ken High Court was postponed to next month. It centers on the devastating fire at a hijacked building in the Johannesburg CBD. in which several people died and others were injured. There's just one man, Stimiso Lawrence Malo, standing in the dock for the crime, although other city entities were implicated. Seblesi revisited the site of the inferno that became the subject of an extensive inquiry after the tragedy.

[00:33:05]On the 31st of August 2023, flames tore through Johannesburg's US building in what would become one of South Africa's deadliest urban fires. Initially an apartate era government pass office, it was transformed into a postapartate woman's shelter, but it later became a hijacked crimeridden building. During the 2023 fire, 76 people lost their lives. For survivors like Daniel Boza, the memories are impossible to forget.

[00:34:05]Daniel had lived in the building since 2019 when the fire broke out. Escaping meant risking his life.

[00:34:34]As families buried their loved ones, investigators searched for answers.

[00:34:39]Government subsequently appointed the Campbee Commission of Inquiry to investigate the tragedy. Among its recommendation was that the building be demolished. Yet the burnt shell of us still stands.

[00:34:55]Sebisum Clao came forward and confessed to starting the fire. He was arrested, but he later withdrew that confession through his lawyer.

[00:35:06]The court dismissed the withdrawal and ruled that his confession remains fully admissible as evidence because it was made freely and voluntarily. Despite the Kepe Commission having fingered multiple entities and individuals, Maloce remains the only one publicly known to be held liable.

[00:35:26]Survivors like Hriala continue to bear the consequences.

[00:35:31]She along with many others was moved to this Denver temporary relocation area after the fire.

[00:36:06]Nearly 3 years later, says she feels government has failed them.

[00:36:23]selei.

[00:36:25]Case in point.

[00:36:28]>> Well, it appears it's not only the people who have forgotten. It was also the findings of Justice CCepe who led that commission of inquiry into the disaster. The commission also filed wrongdoing on the part of the city of Johannesburg and its entities including the Johannesburg property company. Let's get to the bottom of this with Joberg Mayor Dada Morero and senior communications and advocacy officer at the socioeconomic rights institute of South Africa Edward Moloi. Gentlemen, thank you both so much for your time on the program today. Mayor, >> thank you.

[00:36:57]>> The the judge said the city of Joberg bears partial responsibility for what happened because you didn't comply with your own bylaws. Uh the city and Jober Property Company owned that building which you'd seemingly abandoned by 2019.

[00:37:11]You broke fire safety, health, town planning and building control laws.

[00:37:15]That's a pretty damning finding from Judge Kepe.

[00:37:19]Well, thanks for the opportunity to once again uh talk to the report as produced by Kambia which has raised quite serious issues that the city might have not take implemented their bylaws which is a serious indictment on the city and we do note those challenges. However, the commission then said there are certain sets of action that the city must start implementing to ensure that we are not faced with this repeat and that's exactly what the city is doing and rolling out to implement those uh action points that uh the commission has recommended.

[00:37:59]>> All right.

[00:38:01]May I start with one of those please?

[00:38:03]You saw the visuals of that the shell of that building still standing. One of the recommendations was that you demolish the building and install a plaque on the site to remember the dead. Have you done that?

[00:38:13]>> Well, there are conversations that we are having currently or since the recommendations were put forward to the premier uh with the heritage because remember the building it's a heritage site. So there are conversation because the the commission's recommendations can also be not challenged as such but we can make federal recommendations to ease the work of the commission.

[00:38:40]>> So do you have a deadline for that?

[00:38:42]>> No, we're not going to demolish us yet.

[00:38:44]They are conversation to confirm for us to get to that stage >> cuz the heritage buildings you can't.

[00:38:50]>> The law says you can't.

[00:38:52]>> Does does it take 3 years to have these conversations? Remember the report was presented to the premier just towards the end of last year >> and we've been engaging with our legal representatives and the premier and in fact in February I had a full meeting where they gave me the full report and we then started saying okay there are following recommendations that we can do immediately which was issues around the MMC of public safety of human settlements we implemented those recommendations. So recommendations as we move along we are implementing them not only affecting uso but broadly around issues that are affecting the bad buildings. So there's quite a number of of recommendations but in terms of demolition is something that would not do until we finalized the discussion with the heritage.

[00:39:43]>> Okay that's that's understandable. I mean the commission also recommended disciplinary action against the accounting offices of JPC Joberg Waters city power and pick it up in instances where they failed to execute their duties. Is that in progress as well?

[00:39:56]Well, there are instances where we have said okay for example uh we'll refer the matters to the boards that uh oversee those entities >> and the boards will then have a discussion on the matters of those that should be subjected to particular h disciplinary process and on the basis of what comes from the commission and the board will then have to discuss and make a call with JPC's matter it was part of the matters on the table and uh you'd know that the the head of the JPC herself also challenged uh the matter uh I think the matter is still somewhere in the courts uh to clear her name uh but unfortunately she has also left the system uh uh job water there were no adverse uh recommendations except that we need to attend to the following uh we must provide water to those buildings that are being hijacked or being occupied illegally or are referred to as bed buildings.

[00:41:02]uh now there's an issue about how do we deal with ESP which is our extended social package for for us to be able to provide water and services uh in those buildings and that's what we are doing because we are required to have registered on our ESP for us to be able to provide uh certain of the services and job court has made a commitment to continue to provide water tankers uh in those areas because the infrastructure there is unlikely uh because you'll to build. So who who are you going to build? So we are providing water tankers and static tankers in areas of bad buildings not only oindo now that oso is empty but the recommendations refer to uh the bad buildings around the inner city and we are doing that.

[00:41:50]>> All right. So Mr. Malope let me bring you into the conversation here. I I can see the mayor doesn't want to talk about the the reasons that this this fire took place in in the first place. So let me ask you this. The city did argue that that it was the resident's fault that this fire had occurred because they'd hijacked the building for starters. They chased city officials away when they tried to intervene. Uh there's also the matter of Cibis Leo who started the fire. Do you think the city of of Joberg was fairly or unfairly held to account in this inquiry?

[00:42:20]>> Um yeah, no, thank you for for having us. Um I mean I think the commission was quite thorough in the work that it did both in part A and part B of of the recommendations that it did it took the work seriously >> and the recommendations that it made it did not make them likely. So when it it found adverse when it when it found against um city officials it was because of the evidence that was brought before the commission. Um and so it was fair in that in that regard because all the parties concerned were able to make representations in regards to um what happened uh what caused the fire and what would have if if if the city was in charge of the building as they should have being the owners of the building.

[00:43:09]um the commission found that if they had discharged of their duties um they that that fire would not have claimed then the amount of lives that that it had and so it it's it's it's it's quite fair to to then say that the the responsibility they bear it in that way.

[00:43:27]>> Um and and I mean I think it it's it's it's also um we we spend quite a lot of money on these commissions as a country.

[00:43:36]>> Yes. And and so it's important that when findings are then made that those findings are then acted upon um instead of just being you know um taken as as as whether we can take them up or not. Um and and and I mean I think when when when the when the recommendation in part A says that um there needs to be disciplinary proceedings and hearings for um you know polic uh for for holders um office holders. Um we need to see that as a public >> because we have lives that were lost 76 lives that were lost including 12 children. um it it it can't simply just disappear um in in just a pro a process thing that no one is held responsible.

[00:44:26]So, so are you worried that I mean I I imagine that the city does have to have to jump through certain label law hoops in in regards to charging the the individuals concerned or is the commission's report enough basis to say well this you know the the research has been done the the judge has studied the findings and she or she has studied the circumstances she has come out with a finding and we need to immediately see people's heads roll >> well yeah I mean I think if if if a commission of inquiry sits and and and produces that kind of evidence. Um, of course, the city is um within their rights to institute processes that leads to a disciplinary hearing because the accused will also defend um against that. But what we need to see as a public is that um those disciplinary hearings um are taking place and heads are indeed trolling. Um, and this is one of the biggest tragedies that we have seen in a very long time and it it it simply can't be that um we we we're not seeing the same level of accountability that we would expect to see as the public.

[00:45:34]>> All right, so let's take a short break.

[00:45:35]When we come back nearly three 3 years on, one man may take the fall for the fire that killed 76 and left survivors in deplorable circumstances. We ask whether other implicated parties will face justice as soon as possible. Stay with us and we're continuing with our discussion on the Isendo fire and the consequences of that 3 years later. Uh let me bring you back into the conversation now because Mr. Malupi made the point that that they want to see heads role because 76 people died and so many were injured.

[00:46:16]What sense of urgency is the city of Joberg investing in this?

[00:46:20]>> Well, the city of Jo has followed processes that needed to be followed in executing the recommendations part A and part B and that's exactly what we are doing in the city. Some issues that are raised by the commissions have serious constraints on the city which the city cannot afford. For example, it insists on temporary accommodation and we are clear it's unaffordable and it's not our mandate and we have responded to it in that manner. There are instances where the recommendation around filling of post and appointing people permanently.

[00:46:51]I don't think the commissions h is part of what they should have even uh discussed because it's within the city's processes to determine whether are we able to afford appointments of people permanently or not. And I think whether a person is acting it acts with full responsibilities and mandate are permanent or acting and therefore it shouldn't affect uh the work that needs to be executed by officials. uh instances where we must enter the buildings and remove uh waste when in fact the buildings are hostile and very hostile to our employees who unable to even enter. That's why we are looking at options.

[00:47:31]>> The hijacked buildings.

[00:47:32]>> Yes, the bad buildings.

[00:47:33]>> The buildings that that you allowed to be hijacked some of which you own.

[00:47:37]>> It will be wrong to say we have allowed because the process of hijacking requires you to give us sufficient time in this interview to explain to you how it happens. It's not something that the city just allows you.

[00:47:48]>> But you own those buildings.

[00:47:49]>> You find that some Yes, we own the buildings. We own and and part part of the reason this fire occurred is because you allowed a building.

[00:47:57]>> Now the question you must ask is how did SNDO end up being hijacked? Then that will give you the answer because the city officially leased the building to an NGO through a proper process of the city.

[00:48:10]>> So you did not abandon the building. No, the pro the building was given over to an NGO which later abandoned the building >> and you were not aware that the building point the building was then hijacked and the city has been interacting with the hijackers and remember the law says as you evacuate and evict people in a bad building we must find them temporary accommodation >> absolutely don't have the resources for that >> and and and Mr. Malopi, you see the conditions in which people are living.

[00:48:38]These conditions are awful. Some some would say inhumane. H how do you how do you think the city needs to deal with this?

[00:48:46]>> Well, I think it also goes back to another recommendation that comes from um the campa commission. Um it one of the things that it made was findings that it made was that um there isn't a desendable plan um a housing plan within the city currently. And so there is I think a plan that was um put on hold at some point which was um it's called IHIP um which is a city plan for for housing.

[00:49:13]It's a housing plan for the city and so it says that let's revisit that plan um and update it to current status and use that as as one of the so so I think one of the important things that we need within the inner city and one of the one of the contributing factors to what we are seeing is that there isn't affordable housing um in the inner city and so in order for us to mitigate such incidences we really need to be having a housing plan that speaks to the reality of the inner city and that's one of the conditions in which we'll be able to to work around these issues.

[00:49:52]>> All right. Thank you both so much for making the time to speak to us this evening. Dada Morero, the the mayor of Johannesburg and Edward Malopy. Um he is of course representing Siri this evening. Well, every week we bring you a new fact about the law. Did you know that the promotion of equality and prevention of unfair discrimination act 4 of 2000 also known as the equality act gives effect to the constitutional right to equality and prohibits both the government and private individuals and entities from unfairly discriminating against anyone. The act regulates against unfair racial discrimination, gender discrimination. It prohibits hate speech and harassment and disallows the dissemination and publication of information that unfairly discriminates against people.

[00:50:46]Before we wrap up our show tonight, if you're facing a legal or justice issue that you'd like us to explore, please email us on caseinpoint, one word, [email protected].

[00:50:59]And that is a wrap from us for tonight.

[00:51:01]We'll see you next Thursday at 8:00 p.m.

[00:51:03]Take care till then from the team and me. Bye-bye.