Rajdeep Sardesai Hosts Gymkhana Roundtable: Govt Takeover Justified Or Gymkhana Soft Target?

追加: 2026-05-31

[00:00:09]In Delhi, Jim Kana club faces a takeover in Mumbai. BJP wants review leases to clubs.

[00:00:32]Crackdown on colonial era clubs and Jim Khanas.

[00:00:40]Justified move or weapon of mass destruction.

[00:00:51]Symbols of elite privilege or a cherished legacy club culture crackdown roundt.

[00:01:05]Hello and welcome once again to the weekly roundtable. This week, the Narendra Modi government has opened another front when the center served an eviction notice to the high-profile Delhi Jim Khana in the heart of the national capital. The Modi government calls it a step in the interest of national security and public good. The Jim Kana supporters and members see it as an example of state power and a potential land grab. There is also a parallel narrative running. Is this an attempt by the Modi government to dismantle a bastion of the Englishspeaking Latians elite and build their vision of a new India or some would say a new elite or is it a weapon of mass distraction from the more pressing concerns of our times? Are we going to see the end of an elite club culture not just in Delhi but across India next? Those are some of the issues that we'll be discussing on a on our big Jim Kana debate. Joining us now special guest Tablene Singh, author and columnist joins me. Also joined by Pavan WHMA, author and former diplomat. And I'm joined by Rakkesh SA, former Raja Sabha BJPMP. We'll be joined by more guests as the show goes on. But I want to start with you Tabin Singh because the two big questions I want to raise initially. Is the Narendra Modi government justified in taking over the Delhi Jim Khana serving it an eviction notice or is a colonial legacy club a soft target? Your response?

[00:02:45]I think both things could be true because ever since Narendra Modi became prime minister, he's made it clear that all traces of India's colonial past must be erased. So we had parliament erased and a new one created. You know, I think the ministries have all been moved. The ministries is a good thing to do because those offices that were built were really awful. The the ones that they they've changed from is a good thing.

[00:03:13]But the Jim Khana club is part of Delhi's history. It's it's the sort of club where you know I mean since the British left it wasn't the elite Raji the elite go to the Belvadier club in the in the Oberoy and the Chambers club in the Taj and they go to other fancy new clubs like the Soho club that are very very expensive clubs. The Korang Club, the the Jim Khana Club is a relic of the past. It's a beautiful old building in very shabby condition. And most of the people that go there are not rich people. They are retired people who go there because the food is cheaper and it's good and the the booze is cheaper and it's good and you can meet other people, you know. I mean, someone like me, I've been playing squash there since I was a young girl.

[00:04:09]you know, it's it really is part of the life of Delhi in many ways. And but the other thing that I want to make clear right away is if they're paying only a,000 rupees a year, that's ridiculous.

[00:04:23]They should pay full market rent, they it's a very, you know, fancy building, etc., so they can afford to pay more.

[00:04:31]>> Can I can I just push you though on one point before I go to the others? You seem to suggest that the elite should be defined therefore by wealth not necessarily by the fact that they are members of the Delhi Jim Khana which could be retired generals, retired bureaucrats, retired diplomats and dare I say even their children who seem to get automatic membership and many question that privilege as well. Do you believe elite is defined now in India by wealth? the ability that they can go to an expensive five-star hotel exclusive club, not so much the Delhi Jim Khanas and the old clubs of the country.

[00:05:07]>> The the people that I meet at the Jim Khana club are don't really constitute the elite except for some bureaucrats.

[00:05:14]And I have been, you know, I' I'm not a member. I I've just sort of, you know, I'm on a list of uh dependent members that dependents that could one day become members. But I'm defining elite by political power and by money power because that is what makes up an elite.

[00:05:34]The political elite in Delhi is a new elite in the past 12 years. The old elite has been kicked out into the garbage bin of history. There is a new elite there and they behave just like the old elite. You know, Orwell was completely right about this because they also now have the fancy cars and the Cartier uh watches and the glasses that are two or three lakhs. Some of the ministers, just look at their faces.

[00:06:04]They're wearing glasses that are worth two or three lakhs. The people that you will meet in the Jim Khana club could not afford that kind of luxury. So, it's a it's political and and money power that makes up an elite. Very interesting. Political and money power in your view makes up the elite and that necessarily does not reside in the Jim Khanas anymore. Resides more in these five-star exclusive clubs. Uh Pavan Varma your take. Do you believe the Modi government is justified in taking over uh the Delhi Jim Kana and or do you believe that a elite legacy club or a colonial legacy club is a soft target?

[00:06:48]Well, Rajep uh the government has the powers uh as uh the unquestionable landlord >> of all lee's land.

[00:07:00]It can resume that land if it wishes and can state the purposes for which it is doing so. So I think legally uh the government is within its bounds to take over the club. I think what the plea of the members of the club and for a lot of other people is that could there be a little more transparency on the reasons stated? If it's security and public good as you put it then the question arises is Jim Khana club the only place where you need it for these purposes.

[00:07:38]The question also arises why now for a club that was established in 1913 and which has been in existence in free and independent India since 1947.

[00:07:50]So I believe some degree of transparency even some process of discussion prior to such a fiat ferman saying that we are just taking over the club because in our view we need it for security and public good. Now as far as the question you asked about elites, I do agree with what Tavlin said that what constitutes now the elite in real terms but all elites are basically probably uh those institutions which have a barrier on entry which put on the gates rights of admission reserve. Now the Jim Khana club is a sought after membership and there are people who qualify and there are people who don't who are still on the waiting list. Now in such a situation the perception grows that what must be those those who are members >> Mhm.

[00:08:44]>> are perhaps the elite and they are living on rather expense they are part of a club on very expensive land. uh uh and I think uh they are certainly an elite class to begin with because they were largely as bureaucrats, armed forces and some others who joined the beneficiaries of the outgoing colonial regime. They were the English-speaking elite and they had more or less a smooth and safe entry into some of the havens that the British left behind. Is that the situation today? Now I think it has changed and it took time to change in the in Kolkata. The Bengal club created by the British believe it or not until 1959 did not have an Indian president and it was always a Britisher and did not allow Indians also until in seven years later you had an elected Indian president. There was a mo very prestigious club in Mumbai which many till many years after independence had on its entrance dogs and Indians not allowed. Even the Jim Khana club if I may just quickly give you a personal example in the early 1990s I was going to the club in the evening and I was stopped. I was wearing a silk korta and pajama closed pishavi sandals and the guard who knew me said that sab you need a javar jacket with it which I agreed to immediately and I asked my wife to bring it but then I found people in jeans and uh t-shirts and gola shoes being allowed to go in and someone in the Indian cultural millu formally dressed like you can wear a vehi and a white t-shirt with and be very formally addressed a country of India satorial diversity you cannot prescribe membership or entry on these grounds because that reinforces the perception of the club being elitist and all that has changed in fact when I protested strongly Admiralani who was the president of the club himself said you're right we need to change the club rules and other clubs have changed perhaps the pace of change has been slow but they have changed now as far As public good is concerned, I want to ask you Rajib, if you're looking for public good on this very prized 27 acres, then you must proceed to do it in the whole of Latians Delhi where sometimes there is a one family living in 3 to 5 acres of a Latin's bungalow and all of Latians Delhi is exactly that bungalow servant quarter. Bungalow seven quarter and four or five acres surrounding it of lush gardens maintained at public money. So if you have to redevelop it in a city where officially 50% of the population has been designated as a slum let's you have the whole of Latians daily to do it. So again the question comes why the Jim Khana club.

[00:11:53]>> So it comes back to the soft target.

[00:11:55]You're you're suggesting point is that >> you're suggesting that if it is the Delhi Jim Khana today then why not the ministerial bungalows why not for example maybe tomorrow the constitution club which is exclusively for MPs and former MPs the list could go on and on it could be the RD golf club the Delhi golf >> am I Rajib >> yes >> I just want to make a point that the constitution club which is some of the poshest facilities is only open to MPs and exMPP piece in the heart of Latians Delhi on Rafimar.

[00:12:28]>> Yeah. Yeah. But the the difference is the Delhi Jim Khan. No, sir. The difference is difference is and I'll widen this. The difference is that the children of the members automatically get membership in many of these clubs.

[00:12:39]So it is inheritance at one level. We cannot deny that Mr. Pavan. Therefore the comparison doesn't always work. Why should the children of of the privilege get easy access to a club? Do you agree with that? Why should they get it?

[00:12:53]Good point. Good. Yeah. Very good. Good point. Rajib, there was a certain tradition where dependent members had a a fast track to membership by getting in the first instance a dependent card. If you have a problem with that, it's your management committee. You've taken over the clubs committee. Change it. But do you need to throw the baby out with the bath water? Do you need to say, "No, I we need to take over the entire club."

[00:13:22]>> Okay. I take that's what I'm questioning. I I take your point. Let me >> that's a bit of discussion.

[00:13:28]>> Okay. Let let me bring in the others.

[00:13:29]Remember the club was taken over. Delhi gym was taken over by the government through an administrator. There were allegations of corruption and mismanagement. But Rakkesh SA you've heard these opening remarks. You've been you've been a supporter of the fact that these clubs need to be taken over.

[00:13:43]Respond to what you're hearing. There is a new elite already. The new elite which as tablin Singh says wears watches worth lacks of rupees, specs worth lacks of rupees. I mean who is the elite? Define for me Rakkesh Sina who you believe is the real elite that this government is taking on. No Raz we are not against elites or non- elites. We don't want any battle between the elites and non- elites. The debate has something else that is the public good and I think that Narendra Modi government is rationalizing the club culture. It is a question of rationalization. It is not a question of socialism and capitalism.

[00:14:21]You know after decolonization the Indianization all these debates are going on but here as the club is concerned in India there are 60,000 clubs. There are many exclusive clubs.

[00:14:31]There nothing wrong. You can have your own rules, your own regulation, your own traditions, your own membership criteria. But in democracy, you have to go by the prime of the constitution that liberty, equality and justice. You cannot impose hereditary things in the club. Next thing 70 76 acres of 27,000 crores cost of the land and here almost 750 JJ cluster juggi jaguar cluster almost 30% delights are the slum dwellers so the >> no but you're not going to put you're not going to put slum dwellers where where the Delhi Jim Ghana exists 27 acres of land is not going to be given to slum dwellers. No no no no no no no it is deep is not a black and white if you are analyzing this Muslim rulers will go and leave it's a question of I am just asking the question what it has it done for the common good of the people except enjoying the exclusive luxury exclusivity of the is the core of this club and that who are it members is not a concern whether they are elites or non- elite where they are wealthy people of the retire bureaucrats question of they are enjoying the 76 acres land >> 27 27 acres land but that is true of all clubs sir sir that is true of all clubs tomorrow you'll stop Kolkata club you'll stop Bombay gym khana you'll stop all the clubs because they are all exclusive >> razib razib allow me to speak you know since 1991 to 2011 there's a one deficit in this country that all informal public spaces during the marmahan singing regime have eroded the eurosion Informal public spaces must be remembering that in Delhi University or Javar University and other universities particularly in in Jadapur University or Kolkata informal spaces where people used to sit deliberate contemplate they're good people they're wealthy people non-wealthy people students teachers and common man all these spaces have been commercialized since 1991 to 2011 so we have no public space and in that era where the 80% people lack the space and there is a ial inequality you have imposed in this country you are enjoying this 76 acres land so public good requires that is rest like so so what would you use it for no no sir you have may use the word public good four time what would you use the place for you are using prime property what will you use it for to set up another defense headquarters is that public good there are enough bhavs across the country >> no it's is no no in fact certain private individuals are enjoying something and something is done for the larger public public interest whether is a security headqu security agencies or or the or some library or something else it depends on the government but definitely it is for the larger benefit of the people and the larger space would be in the larger interest of the people. Second important point here is you see Razi when we go to to to clubs it it it has certain uh for the individuals who are members it is also some some larger utility. What is the larger utility except the 26 green tennis clubs and and and other things in the club? What what is the larger larger utility? Certain people are enjoying this the maximum facilities without any responsibility. So you have you own the responsibility. I know many clubs who are doing the great job. Have you done anything for the slum dealers? 8 to 9 cr rupees per per year. This benefit is is profit. It has 76 crores operational cost. 43 cr comes from the tea and other other things is snacks. So this club cannot be allowed to function as exclusive super India within the India.

[00:18:21]>> Okay. I've got the government. I heard you patiently just just I'm just I'm summarizing the Narendra Modi government's social philosophy that social philosophy is based on that everything should be done in the interest of the 140 cror people there should not be segmentization of the people certain people who are enjoying since the colonial era a kind of tradition that we are elite we we are monopolizing the things the government is not going to tolerate >> okay that's the social philos sir I so I've listened to you now patiently I've listened patiently You have said it social philosophy is to cater to the public good. Even though some believe what we have created in recent times is a billionaire raj where 1% of the population owns 40% of the national wealth. But I'll come back to that. I want to bring in Yogesh Prasad Major Yogesh Prasad is someone who's been a club member managing committee member.

[00:19:12]You're listening the you're listening to the opponent saying that what public good does a club or a gym khana serve?

[00:19:18]simply playing tennis playing playing squash these are recreational activities for an exclusive group of people they don't serve a larger public good says Rakkesh SA Raj at the outset I would like to say that this word elite I don't know from where it has come it is the the club's constitution clearly states that only half the membership of the club at any point of time will be from the officers of the armed forces of India and the civil servants the balance of 50% is open to everybody. Now the question about the children there is a specific clause in the articles of association that a child who has used the club as a dependent in the age group of 13 to 21 on reaching the age of 21 if he or she wishes to continue to use the club must apply for membership >> and a nomure has been given and it is called green card. Now if people have objection about the children using the club, I mean we are quite prepared to make changes according to uh the wishes of of the government. But how can on with a stroke of and you can say that the government takes over the club for this >> because the club the club does not the club does not pay market rents. the club is in prime property land close to the prime minister's residence. There's a belief that this could be put to a better public good rather than simply recreation. They'll give you some alternative place.

[00:21:00]>> In any case, in any case, the prime minister's residence is moving away from there. Anyway, >> in the last 70 years, no threat has emerged from the Delhi Jim Khana club and and Jim Khana club has very responsible uh members. So there is no threat to security. I'm afraid I'm not prepared to buy that. As far as look at look at the kind of contribution this club has made. Whenever Davis Cup matches are held, it is the preferred preference of our players is grass. We have the best grass outside Wimbledon, maybe the best in the world.

[00:21:40]We have excellent squash facilities. We have produced champions there. uh if you take if you go back to the history Mr. Sumat Bisra Mr. Nared Rat Mr. Prem pandi our uh another playing member at the moment is playing for Indian Davis Cup team in squash we have produced champions we have got uh >> so you don't you don't accept we had >> I've heard you sir I I've heard you >> it's not that jhana club is only for pleasure okay it is it is this elitism it is something which has uh you know >> so you don't see yourself as an elite you don't see yourself major sab as an elite.

[00:22:22]>> Sorry, say again.

[00:22:23]>> Do you see yourself as an elite? Do you see yourself as part of the elite?

[00:22:27]>> I don't think I am an elite. I am a normal retired government servant. How am I elite? Am I educated? And because I have served the government, I'm elite.

[00:22:38]>> Okay, let me bring in let me bring in let me bring in at this moment Satya Jen and the question that I carry on. Is the Latians elite a real or imaginary enemy of the government? Should all government lands be only used for limited public purposes? Your response, Satipal Jen, former your additional solister general.

[00:22:57]Do you believe?

[00:22:58]>> I >> Yeah, go ahead.

[00:23:00]>> I personally feel as rightly pointed out by one of the panelists. The question is not not of the elite or non- elite, rich or poor. I have all regard for those members who have run this uh institute for a very long time. They might have contributed their best to the country when they were in service. Maybe civil service, maybe defense and all that, but they should also realize one thing that there is a an end to everything. They have enjoyed this I will use the word privilege for more than 100 years at the cost of the state tax exeer by having this so-called socializing meeting place club where they sit together discuss and all that.

[00:23:40]In the country where the privilege has been given to these people for 100 years, I feel personally feel with some responsibility when the government decided to terminate the tenency the lease did. They should have themselves come forward and they have said they should have said look here we have enjoyed this privilege for 100 years. We hand over the possession to the government and in case they want some other institute some other place they could have requested the government because they have run the government for years together. Having said that I will say two things. The rights are the rights which are recognized by the society at a particular time. There are no fundamental inheritor rights.

[00:24:18]Previous persons of the Raja Maharajas were abolished. Land reforms came. Those who were having hundreds and hundreds acres of land was taken away reduced to 30 acres of land. So therefore rights are not the permanent rights. My will be member, my son will member, my daughter will be member, my grandson will be member. 37 years people have been waiting for the membership. NCT dissolved their managing committee. It was NCT which is a judicial tribunal which appointed the administrator government of administrators. So I personally feel that they should themselves come forward hand over the position to the government of India. And what is the government of India saying that we are we have >> you know >> look at there are three ways of transferring the property. One the sale the purchaser become the owner. Second is the rent the tenant and rent landlord governed by the rent loss. Lease is only a concession. There is a lease given which comes to an end. You have to hand over the possession. Third sir, third sir I'm saying though there is no definite definition of elite and all that KL marks use the word bourgeoisi the middle bourjuazi that was the word used by kal marks all those people who are having influence in the society who are having their living standard above much much higher than the common man they and have the power they have been in power occupying serious powerful officers By and large they are known to be the elite otherwise you can't have a definite definition of the elite word. I feel time has come once again I will repeat. So whereas the merits of the case are concerned the case has gone to the high court. The government government is being represented by the highest legal officer very competent lawyer Mr. Tushar Ma their lawyers also Mr. Kapil Cibil Abhishek Manu Singhi very prominent lawyers well-known lawyers marriage will be decided by the court. We will not like to as a lawyer to discuss those merits and demmerits will be open but I feel hand over the possession I will advise them I've heard you satyal j you want the property to be handed over you're even likening it to privy purposes tabl singh interesting here is an additional solicister general saying this is like what Indra Gandhi did in ' 69 with the raja maharajas It's time to end this sort of colonial relic.

[00:26:44]Effectively, he didn't use the word colonial relic, but when he used the reference to privy purses, you almost feel as if this is a a 1969 moment for Narendra Modi. I'm going to teach the old Naruvian elite which monopolize these clubs a lesson, the English-sp speakaking elites.

[00:27:01]>> Okay. Do you know I agree with him? I think that the privileges that the privileged people should give up their privileges. I think it is outrageous that Indian ministers and MPs live on land that is worth 150 crores an acre and they haven't been able to provide urban affordable housing. It is outrageous. That is privilege. Okay.

[00:27:26]Security. Talk about security.

[00:27:27]Rashtraati Bhavan sits on 300 acres. Why can't all the ministerial bungalows if you want to give it to them? It doesn't happen in other democracies. In other democracies in in America, I think it's only the president and the vice president. I'm not even sure the vice president is given government uh accommodation. In what we copied was China and the Soviet Union, you know, where the the officials lived in the Kremlin and in in the in Jungan High etc. and everybody else lived. You know, why why are we paying why are tax what I'm saying to you is let's start a movement against all this all the guys that are living in privilege at taxpayers expense. They should give it up. Why is there why why should it only be the Jim Khana club? Why not move every MP into the Akbar hotel or if you want to give them accommodation?

[00:28:27]Why do we have all this? The whole of Latians Delhi is leold and it on it sit government officers and ministers and MPs and some of them are so happy with that accommodation that when they want to keep the house they deliberately bring in one of their children or their wives to take to you know become MPs.

[00:28:53]So, you know what about the privilege of Parliament being a a little diner's club? How many people can get into Parliament if you're not related to a political family? Let's let's open the box. It's a huge Pandora's box that we're going to open up. And I actually am very disappointed with Modi for not having thrown these people out of Latin Delhi long ago.

[00:29:17]>> You're saying you're saying get rid of all the ministerial bungalows. Get rid of all absolutely commercial. Make it all make it all commercial. I can tell you in the United States many of their many of their top representatives live in smaller in in regular apartments >> rent their own apartments you know they they don't make do you know that to live in Latians Delhi we have political families I don't want to name them who bring in their sons their daughters somebody's in the Raja Saba somebody's in the they're all there for the house I know movie stars who refuse to give up the house you know so why why don't we widen the debate debate. Let's talk about who the really >> that's an interesting way. Let's widen the debate. Satyal Jen, both you and Rakkesh Sin have been MPs. Satyapal, you want to go first? Then Tavlin is Singh is saying let's then open up the Pandora's box. Let's also get rid of all these large landscape garden bungalows of Delhi. Get rid of everything. You're using the Delhi Jim Khana. The prime minister himself is going to move into a large residence, prime minister's residence. Raashtraati Bhavan is 300 acres. Let's get rid of all of it.

[00:30:28]>> Sir, so far as the issue of all these is concerned, I personally feel let's make a start first. Let them hand over the Jim Khana club to the government of India or to Delhi government wherever it is. Let them start a moment. I am ready.

[00:30:39]>> Are you are you do YOU SUPPORT HER IDEA?

[00:30:42]DO YOU SUPPORT her idea that ministers also should not live in these large houses?

[00:30:45]>> Let there be a consensus among all the political parties about it. I'm with her. Let's have a discussion. You have a debate on the next day. All chief ministers, all leaders, all MPs involve all political parties. Come to a consensus. I'm with you. Okay. No problem.

[00:31:01]>> Okay. Ra consensus.

[00:31:03]>> Okay. Come to I take parties.

[00:31:05]>> Okay. Come to a consensus. Rakkesh. Will you support it? Why do you need these mantr and MPs in these large houses?

[00:31:13]>> Pay commercial rent. Tin Singh is unaware of the No. Tabin Singh is unaware of the latest developments.

[00:31:20]you go she should go and see Brahmutra Ganga Gumi so the Bangalows are being replaced by apartments and as far Indian member of parliament and ministers are concerned apart from any political across any political party where the Congress party's ruling or the BJP's ruling average member of parliament meets more than 100 people every day different kind of people some some want hospitalization some want reservation some want transfer some posting we serve the people anybody comes to be member of parliament mostly members of parliament they are well received served and we are less paid I am not playing that I am being a member of parliament I realize that one lakh salary and every day 50 people 60 people comes even I am XMPP more than 40 people come I can't say that I'm not a member of parliament so kindly don't degrade the democracy by comparing the member of parliament's residence with the club member of parliament is a public serve the common people serve the common people saying last Last last point last a complete last point. Razib. Yes. Raj this. Razib.

[00:32:25]Yes. You see see after Modi G came into power what was what has been his priority? 10 cr toilets. Tins should realize that being a woman how the women of the country suffered before preod people are getting foods. So you are making the common people the part of the republic. Republic is expens expanding the pad. It is going to the commoners.

[00:32:49]1% of India sir sir nobody doubts the welfare infrastructure sir sir we are mixing issues no one just a minute sir no one doubts the welfare infrastructure the government is trying to put in place inequalities continue to grow 1% of this country population has 40% of the wealth nothing has been done has stopped raj instead you have more companies coming up it ra it is not the 10 years which created 1% people it is In 10 years we have reached to the 10 cr toilets. 80 cr people are getting foods. Then you say the freebie 80 cr people who are needing the people. So the benefits of the republic must go to the common people.

[00:33:29]That is the philosophy of Narendra Modi.

[00:33:31]We are following by conviction not the communism. I show that philosophy of Narendra Modi.

[00:33:38]>> Okay. The philosophy of Modi. Yes. Major Prasad you want to respond that the that the attempt is being made to create a more egalitarian society. This is one step towards it. I I have nothing to say about the the political aspect of the things. I am only speaking for the club and would like to enlighten our audience here that this land was purchased by members of the club at the price of 5,460 rupees over a 100red years ago. The entire labor everything that the club is today was the contribution of members and a couple of >> the club be ready to pay market rent major today would you be ready to pay market rent commercial rent >> they have not purchased not purchased lease >> we purchased not purchase would you be able willing to pay would you be willing to pay market rent >> this land was purchased raised for 5,460 rupees. Please believe me because I have been a member of the management committee and I'm aware of this fact.

[00:34:48]And if you would like to see the receipt, do visit the club. I will show you the receipts.

[00:34:52]>> Yeah. But today in today's day, it cost several hundred crores. Sir, the land on which it is cost several hundred crores.

[00:34:58]Would the club be willing to see it as a pure commercial property? But I let me turn to another question. Are clubs Jim Khana's muchneeded social spaces and importantly is this the new elite replacing the old elite and you know that's a point which keeps coming up Pawan Bharma and you've written about it we are seeing a rotation of elites you've had the old elite which was English speaking grew up in the Nuvian era many believe their time is up now you've got a new elite emerging I keep calling them the billionaire Raj Tavlin Singh says they are the ones who now populate our five-star hotels is this should this be seen as a battle of one elite versus the other or Narendra Modi trying to teach let's say the Macolian English speaking put them in their place they are the ones who uh inhabit these clubs beat in Kolkata beat in Mumbai Madras these were all old colonial clubs the new elite is replacing the old one and the new elites rules are different to the old ones now Rajep in this country there have always existed parallel elites and somehow or the other at the cost of perhaps much greater benefit to the ordinary Indian citizen all of them have carved out spaces which are disproportionate to their actual contribution to society that's the truth of it and that's why I've written about it and I think there is an introspection that needs to be done by all elites including that of Jim Khan I want to make the point that if public good is the goal poll and there seems to be a consensus on this issue. Mr. Jans agreed to it. Let there be a movement. Let us see how many ministers who now live on Latians bangalows and I've been a member of parliament myself. I had a house on along allocated to me on Amita Shergil mark. I didn't shift to it but I had a house. Let us see how many ministers, members of parliament and others who belong to the privileged ruling class are willing to give up these facilities or to to reduce them. If you meet 40 members of your constituency, you need space. But 10 uh 10 uh uh where the prime British prime minister lives uh that would fit into the 1/4 portion of the house of a minister of state in the government of India.

[00:37:28]It's not that they don't have constituents. So if there is a consensus today that let this become the beginning of an overall change towards how we view what is best for public good.

[00:37:39]>> No. So would you would you for example even say Rashtraati Bhan is no longer to be on 300 acres. Are you saying Rashtraati Bhan no longer on 300 acres for one occupant and his his or her family?

[00:37:54]>> Rajep I have been a press secretary to two presidents of India. The Rajpati ban stands for a certain ceremonial value which belongs to the Mahamim Rajputi.

[00:38:05]But if you are asking me if all those 300 acres are required for her to maintain the very legitimate sanctity and high placement of her office, I think there can be a debate on that also because it is the largest palace in the world.

[00:38:23]>> Mhm.

[00:38:25]And usually even ceremonial heads of state including that in the the United States of America live in smaller homes or or even if there are palaces not as big. So you can take a view in fact Mahatma Gandhi said that he would like after independence for Rajpati Bhavan to become a hospital but it did not. We had Dr. Rajend Prasad move in there and the second largest house in Delhi was the Flagstaff House where the prime minister of India moved in and we also have the habit of converting old prime ministerial residences into memorials which the current prime minister has put an end to but I don't know what happens in the future and we also have a situation where those who retire from those high posts for reasons of security are given type eight bungalows in Latians Delhi so as I said elites perpetuate themselves And there are parallel elites of politics of wealth of bureaucracy.

[00:39:25]Now if you are making a movement from uh inspired by the prime ministerial egalitarian vision right >> which I support which Rakkesh SA spoke about let's start a movement and if in that >> uh the beginning is the Jim Khana club so be it. But I'm afraid sometimes while the soft target is taken the rest is never done.

[00:39:47]>> Okay. And I don't want and therefore I appeal to the government to reconsider the decision because at least put a process of discussion greater transparency. I take your point. It can't be a firmman overnight. But you know interestingly Satyipal Jan you raised your finger. I just want to give an example in Bombay where I am a member of a particular club where the club just when its lease was about to expire uh the the concerned municipal officials threatened to not to renew the lease.

[00:40:17]What happened next? All the ISIPs officers ensured they got membership there and the club welcomed them and that's how it survived. Now my point is the ISIP officers the elite there in Maharashtra all wanted to be members of the club. Now in fact uh the previous the Shindai government in Maharashtra had opened up membership in the Willing club also. They want to give membership to ISIP officers. All of them want to be members of the club and at the same time you target the club. All ISIPS officers will line up if tomorrow a membership was opened for the Delhi gym. That's the reality.

[00:40:52]>> I'd like to make three submissions.

[00:40:54]Number one, let's not compare the Rashpati Bhawan Prahan Mantri etc with the Jim Khana club. The president of India represents the entire ethos of the country, the unity and integrity of the country. So we should not bring Rajaspati Bhan, Pradhan Nas etc into the controversy in the Jim Khana club.

[00:41:12]Secondly, after taking over in 2014, Shri Narendra Modi GI has made many reforms, has taken number of steps for the upliftment of the common man, woman, laborers, farmers and all that >> and this moment is going on.

[00:41:27]>> Third, >> you said now that is mis officers, IFS officers, they are trying to take the membership of the clubs and all that.

[00:41:36]>> May I ask you even this Jim Khana club, have they any soldier a member of the club? Have they any PN as a member of the club? Have any normal farmer as a member of the club? Has there any son of a shopkeeper a member of the club? They may be having is officers. But has there any driver, their gunman, their relatives be a member of the club? What else is elite? If you confine the membership only to the selected few that itself becomes the elite. Therefore I will once again request time has come when the elite of this country if there is a elite they should shun their rights and privileges of their own. They should understand and realize the gravity of the problem that a common man is facing.

[00:42:17]This le is being canceled. There is a human cry. Go to the colonies. Go to the slum areas where houses are demolished.

[00:42:23]The buildings were demolished. I heard the question of where was the question of socializing there.

[00:42:28]>> The 50% of Delhi is a slum. Let's do something.

[00:42:31]>> Start a national debate. I agree with Mr. Vman.

[00:42:35]Let there be a national debate on it.

[00:42:36]Okay. How many rights can be given to a section of the society at the cost of the common man, a poor man, a laborer?

[00:42:43]>> Sir, I don't I is it one versus the other? You see, if the Delhi Jim Khana lands were being taken over any Jim Khan and then being handed over to the punes, the the guards, the jawans for their housing, I don't think many people would object at all. Major Prasad would you object if tomorrow where your >> I don't object what given housing okay I would like I would like to question let him respond if I hear >> yes >> that has any of this class of people ever applied for membership of this club >> no I know it >> s they cannot afford the type of people sitting there how can a PM sit with an is officer you won't allow him even to enter to have water on your table >> you can't have it both ways you apply FOR MEMBERSHIP. SO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GIVE THEM MEMBERSHIP. SIR, you're not going to give them membership. That is true there. Satyapal is right. But but my sir, just a minute. My my point Major Prasad Major Prasad if tomorrow the government says we are giving it for lowcost housing, will the club agree?

[00:43:44]>> We we are taking over the land for lowcost housing for the underprivileged.

[00:43:48]Would the club agree? If the government today decides to demolish the entire heritage of this uh Lton's city. Yes.

[00:43:59]Why not have why not have anybody have low cost housing society there? Why not?

[00:44:05]>> Okay. We cannot dictate the government to do what they have to do. OKAY.

[00:44:09]>> WE WILL TAKE A decision in the interest of the elected sir let's not have cross trying to avoid cross talk so everybody can be heard. Tin Singh you raised your hand.

[00:44:19]Go ahead.

[00:44:20]>> Yeah. I I am not comparing the Jim Khana club to Rashraati Bhavan.

[00:44:25]>> We're talking about privileged sir. One minute. Hang on. All right. Now the there is nobody more privileged than the politician and the bureaucrat in India.

[00:44:36]And look how they are living. Why how how dare they live the way they do when they can't when they can't give housing to the ordinary Indian. So please let's clarify what I said. I didn't say muhammed hang on >> the point is if we're talking about privilege that's what I'm saying that you know you've opened a Pandora's box now let's see let's give the Rakkesh s stop raising your finger and say this living in you know we need 20 we meet 20 people a day as Pavan pointed out the prime minister of Britain meets constitutes the American president why is it only in India that we have to pay taxpayers pay for politicians to live like princes and you can't afford to create enough lowcost housing in us.

[00:45:25]>> Give me 30 seconds.

[00:45:28]>> You know, it's not it's not the fault of the Jim Khana club that you haven't been able to do those things. It's the fault of the political leaders and there is a time to show leadership and this is the time instead of picking on a little club, show leadership. Give up your privileges.

[00:45:45]>> Okay. Interesting.

[00:45:47]that Rakkesh will you give will your fellow MPs or your you are an exMPP will your fellow MPs ever give up you know you're saying we have built Brahmaputra these are now apartments they are not the big bangalows the truth is a number of our uh uh judges and and bureaucrats and politicians live still ministers uh two-time MPs all live in bungalows are they willing to give it up and and say we'll have lowcost housing there that is the real revolution that will be the social philosophy I >> I'm really I am Razib really surprised Tablin Singh is a very enlightened journalist and intellectual she's unaware of that how the ministries have been consolidated in Kartabhan the prime minister officer so prime minister prime no let me sub let me let me let me I will let you complete if you keep to the subject in toilets and this that and the other he's not he's saying They have tried to rationalize government offices. Let me let me let me specific question was replacing ministerial bungalows. You want to strike at the elite. They are the real elite. The politicians, the bureaucrats are the real not a Jim Khana where people are playing tennis.

[00:47:02]>> You know no, you you can't compare the minister of Bangalore with the Jim Khanak. Ministers have so many responsibility. We say your wife is a member of parliament. We know the how we meet the people and our 24 hours.

[00:47:14]>> She hasn't taken a house at all.

[00:47:16]>> 8 n no it's not a question of she has not taken or I have taken. This is not the question is that our 24 hours is for the people at least in the Narendra Modi era. No member of parliament belonging to BJP is situated in Delhi. We have to run across the country. We have to organize the K maso. We have to organize different programs for the people. We are enlightening the people.

[00:47:39]of rupees that are being spent on renovate ministerial bungalows. You know better than how the kind I I saw ministerial bungalow where water is running right through the day in a country of water. I'm just telling you that the minister has built a fountain in the middle of his era of the and under Modi regime there is a sunset era of the colonial feudal legacies and the institution.

[00:48:01]>> There is a Modi minister who has a fountain running in the middle of his house >> in an old heritage building. Look, remodeling it, renovating it. That's okay.

[00:48:13]>> I'm telling you that member of parliament has a lot of work and public goods. We do public in the middle of the house.

[00:48:20]>> The people 24 hours 365 days are dedicated to the people, not our family.

[00:48:25]Exceptions are not the rules. Exceptions are not the rules. Exceptions are not dedicated to the common people and we work for the common people. Okay. You work for the people and the public. Can I go back? greatest number is the philosophy of Narendra Modi.

[00:48:38]>> Okay, you've said that but let me come to the final question. Therefore, club culture is it part of a macau mindset?

[00:48:43]The fact that we could go Pawan to Kolkata and go to the Kolkata club and and and have chicken sandwiches or the Bombay gym khana and we'll play a game of rugby and then have a drink afterwards. Is this part of the old colonial legacy that the Macaulay mindset still lives on and therefore the club culture becomes the soft target because it represents that old Macaulay mindset and does that need to change like tomorrow and can it change? Well, well, Rajep, I I'll be honest with you. I'll be honest with you. One of the consequences of colonial rule is not your physical subjugation. It is the colonization of your mind. And it happens to a lot of postcolonial societies that political freedom freedom comes first and cultural emancipation takes longer. the fact that we are I mean we this is an English-based program but for a long time there was a sense of inferiority complex attached to those who could not speak English with the flu accent and with that felicity and that is the truth of it uh a lot of people know nothing about our culture our origins and I'm not talking of being show chauvinist or or xenophobic the fact of the matter is our educational curriculums had no touch in reality with our own heritage, our own history and to that extent yes the Macaulay legacy still continued for a very long time and it's time I will say that for clubs also and I have given examples at to the last time I went I was stopped in a formal dress of a pajama ka uh uh uh with closed sandals just because it doesn't conform to what the British left as the rules for the club and in a country like ours there was The lady who came from the northeast who was thrown out of one of the clubs because her dress which was formal by her standards did not conform to the club's very narrow definitions of propriety. We need to change. We should change.

[00:50:54]>> But should we throw the baby out with the bath water is the question. And I I feel that there should be a dialogue with the clubs. I feel that to by saying that but tomorrow in 48 hours you cease to exist is not the answer. Societies evolve through dialogue.

[00:51:10]>> Okay.

[00:51:10]>> And let there be greater sense of dialogue.

[00:51:13]>> Are you ready? Are you ready to resolve this issue?

[00:51:15]>> Are you ready Major Prasad for a dialogue for change that the club culture of having a gin and tonic of playing a game of sport all you know? No I I am as I love sport. I believe sport should be played encouraged but at the same time do you believe some change is needed also in the club culture you can't wear sandal uh sandals to the bar all of that needs to change or not >> well look I say bar and all is this subsidiary the main focus for a sportsman is to go and play and I remember I could not afford to go to the bar every day because I had a very meager salary when I became a member of this club in 1972 So I played my tennis or I played my squash and sometimes played low very very low stake bridge and that's it and I came home for my dinner.

[00:52:06]>> So this business of saying that every goes to club for a drink and so you're saying you're saying that's caring the club that's stereotyping it. Let me tell you one thing. There is a football of just about uh uh on daily basis it's about 250 to 300 people who come there and play their game have a little wash or whatever or a shower, go to the bridge room or something and maybe go to the bar for a drink that come home. But it is it is the heritage. It is our lifeline. Our now large number of old members who come there in the morning they go to the library. We have a very welle equipped library. We have got sporting facilities. We have you know we offer so much to uh to me I've run out of time. You're saying I've run out of time. You're saying it's I take your point I take your point sir. You're saying it's part of heritage. You know Satyapal Jan are we throwing out with the baby with the bath water? At the end of the day, the clubs are part of a culture of a city. A city is also defined by social spaces across the world.

[00:53:17]>> You know, it seems that they are the it seems that there are resentments that the new guard is resentful that the old order has these clubs where they can go and play. Is there resentment and anger against these people? Let us say the resentment and anger among the common masses also. Indian constitution said, preamble said we have to ensure justice social and economic to all citizen. We the people of India some people thousands maybe two three four lakhs in the entire country cannot sit and enjoy privileges at the cost of the common man. Modias and if you have to uplift the common man you these people with all respect I'm saying full sense of responsibility we have to take over their rights surrender their rights and let there be a national debate on all these issues somewhere which is what we've we've tried to kick off that national debate Singh let me give you 30 seconds you actually believe Okay. Okay. Therefore, Singh, 30 seconds. Do you believe that that we are going to see this revolution?

[00:54:27]>> I am delighted that we've opened a Pandora's box. Let everybody give up their privileges for the common man, for the common good in the ministerial bungalows. Let's start making lowcost housing, affordable housing. What about that sir? What about retired judges etc living in Latians Delhi? I'm a child of Latians Delhi. So don't Rakkesh SA tell me that people are living in little apartments for a start they don't need.

[00:54:56]They should pay rent from their salaries and not expect taxpayers to pay for them to live. So that's my final point. Open the Pandora's box. Great.

[00:55:07]>> Okay. We've opened the Pandora's box on the show today. I'm glad that we've had 30 second. Okay. 22nd, not 30.

[00:55:15]>> Change the subject to toilets or something on the subject. Since 200 two, yes. Since 2014, the elitism has been eroded because you see the batiki 1700 colonial rules have been abolished.

[00:55:38]Egalitarian idea. Egalitarian idea.

[00:55:40]Egalitarian idea. And I egalitarian idea in a country which many has become a billionaire Raj. I'll leave it there.

[00:55:48]I've heard all the sides and it's good to have kickstarted this debate and maybe opened a bit of a Pandora's box.

[00:55:54]You the viewer need to decide. Do we need to do away with the club Jim Kana culture or do you believe it's an important part of our heritage? Do we need to do away with these uh privileges or do you believe they are an essential part of a country's and cities landscape? Let's leave it there. The old elite versus the newly elite and plenty more questions will continue to blow in the wind. Thanks for watching. Stay well. Stay safe. Jin. Namaskar.