Codependent Victims of Narcissistic Abuse ((Skopje Seminar, Day 3, Lecture 2)

Ajouté : 2026-05-28

[00:00:19]Okay, clearly you're all physicists and you have heard of the time dilation in relativity theory. When you move in the speed of light, intellectually time dilates.

[00:00:31]12:25.

[00:00:33]Okay, I'm going to start anyhow.

[00:00:42]So, um, okay, I will I will keep the announcements for later. Let's continue because I have two I have two announcements. I'll keep them for later when everyone rejoins us.

[00:00:56]We are still we are still in the checklist checklist for healing and and um recovery.

[00:01:04]And the next criterion is when you stop using when you stop using uh us and we and instead you begin using I.

[00:01:17]So not us only I.

[00:01:23]When you when you use the plural gender pronouns, it's an indication of merger or fusion and meshment, engulfment.

[00:01:35]So when you were with a narcissist, you always said we we are going to do this or it's it's us against the world. There was a sense of cult. There was a sense of there was a defensive sense of a fortress and there was this enshment and this merger and fusion. You became one.

[00:01:56]This is known this is known in early psychoanalytic in late in early object relation schools. This was known as the symbiotic the symbiotic phase. in the work of Mala um she described a symbiotic phase in the relationship between a child and his mother. So there is this merger when you're with a narcissist and this the transition from a language of plural plural genders to a language of singular gender gender pronouns plural gender pronouns to singular gender pronouns is an indication of healing. When you start to talk about me me I this is healthy narcissism and meshment merger fusion change your language they alter your language as you become as you immerse yourself as you drown deeper and deeper into the narcissist shared shared fantasy then you begin to use a different type of language a language that reflects your symbiosis This you are one organism. One organism with two heads kind of and everyone outside the remmit or the ambit of the shared fantasy is a potential enemy.

[00:03:19]It's a potential enemy because they can challenge the shared fantasy. They can destroy it somehow. So there is this defensive posture. your the monitoring your language is very telling because your language reflects your internal experience. As your internal experience changes, your language changes.

[00:03:42]Us versus them is what we call a cult mind.

[00:03:47]It's a clinical term. In in cults, people do people change. Their minds change. They're affected by the cult.

[00:03:55]They develop a shared mind, a hive mind.

[00:04:00]The cult has a mind of its own. Cult has a mind of its own. You know, a propo cult and a mind of its own. People few people realize that when when individuals collaborate on something, that something acquires a life of its own. That something becomes an entity.

[00:04:24]When you are married to someone, there is you, there is your spouse. Where is my spouse? There is you, there is your spouse, and there is the marriage.

[00:04:37]It's a third entity.

[00:04:39]When you go to couples therapy, the reason couples therapy fails, there's a huge rate of failure in couples therapy is because the couple therapies does not treat the individuals.

[00:04:53]The couple therapist treats the marriage or the couple.

[00:04:59]The couple therapist is focused on this joint entity, on this third entity, which is the marriage of the couple, not on the individuals involved. Similarly, when you're in a cult, the cult is an entity. It has its own mind.

[00:05:18]There are cognitive processes associated not with the with individuals that comprise the cult but with the cult itself.

[00:05:27]And so this has been observed for decades that when you're in a mob, when you're in a mob, you lose your mind. You adopt the mind of the mob. There are numerous studies on on this especially after the rise of mass movements like Nazism and and so on. People ask themselves how come totally decent, honest, normal, healthy people became mass murderers. And how did this happen? Well, it's because they have substituted the mob mind, the mind of that entity for their own. They gave up on their own mind and they adopted the mind of this third entity. When you were in a relation, by the way, those of you who want to read more about this, you should buy you should read the book by Goldhagen. Oops. Goldhagen.

[00:06:32]Goldhagen has written a book. The title is Hitler's Willing Executioners. It's a psychological portrait of what happens to people when they succumb, when they give in and they're infected by a a third collective entity.

[00:06:52]collective entity. Could be a cult, could be a marriage, could be a mob, could be a political party and so on.

[00:06:57]What happens then is that the individual vanishes and becomes a total extension of this third entity. When you're in a relationship with a narcissist, the narcissist instantaneously creates a cult.

[00:07:10]This cult is a third entity. It's not you. It's not the narcissist. It's a third partner. You're having a threesome finally. It's a third partner in the and and the cult has the cult of the narcissist has a mind of its own and you give up on your own mind and you're infected with the mind of the cult. And when you are out of the relationship with the narcissist, when you have finally exited, then you need to deprogram yourself. You need to remove the cult mind. Once you have removed the cult mind, your authentic original mind reemerges and the main indicator of this process is the use of language. Main indicator. So you should be aware of what language you're using because it will tell you a lot about your internal state.

[00:08:02]Next indicator for healing, are you trying to mind readad? Are you trying to read the minds of people?

[00:08:11]When you are with a narcissist, the narcissist fully expects you to read his mind to anticipate his wishes and expectations. And there is there is an implicit assumption by the narcissist that you have an obligation. It's incumbent upon you.

[00:08:30]You're absolutely obliged to cater to the narcissist's needs in advance in in anticipation without any communication.

[00:08:41]And when you fail, the narcissist gets really aggressive and angry that you have failed to anticipate his needs. You failed to read his mind. So you get used when you are in a narcissistic relationship, you get used to anticipating. You get used to guessing.

[00:08:57]You get used to um constructing the narcissist mind in your own mind. You get used to kind of uh mind readading.

[00:09:07]You develop the skill of mind readading.

[00:09:11]Now when you're out of the relationship with the narcissist, this continues and you are you attempt to read the minds of people to anticipate their needs, their thoughts, the cognitions, their emotions. You become you become a mini mini compulsive diagnostician of of people. That is an that is unhealthy.

[00:09:32]That is unhealthy. This kind of mind readading is a strong indicator of pathology.

[00:09:38]A mother would tell you, I can read the minds of my children. I can anticipate their needs. I know exactly what they're thinking. I'm there for them. I'm always available to cater to their needs and so on. That is a very unhealthy mother.

[00:09:54]It's a bad mother.

[00:09:58]The role of communication is crucial and any assumption that you can read the minds of people is not only counterfactual and superstitious and and worse but delusional but also pathologizes the relationship and the interactions with people. When you superimpose your ideas of what people need, your ideas of what they want, when you anticipate the next moves and their next thoughts and the next speech acts, when you're doing this, you're being controlling.

[00:10:34]The reason we try, the reason the victims of narcissistic abuse try to anticipate the narcissist to read the narcissist's mind is because they're terrified of the narcissist and they're trying to reestablish mastery and control to reintroduce certainty by deluding themselves. So the the victim says, "Uh, I'm terrified of the narcissist, but it's not that bad because I can read the narcissist's mind and having read the narcissist's mind, I can anticipate his moves and I can protect myself. I can somehow protect myself." So it's a kind of self deceit, selfdeceit or self-d delus delusion, selfdeception that is intended to restore a sense of control in order to reduce anxiety. So it's anxolytic, it's an anxolytic uh thing.

[00:11:32]So, um, and if you continue to do this after the relationship is over, if you continue to do this with other people, then it's a sign that you're still stuck in the cult. You haven't been deprogrammed and debriefed appropriately. You're still there.

[00:11:58]Next are a family of three behaviors.

[00:12:01]family of three behaviors that are indicative of being stuck, not healing, not progressing.

[00:12:10]And the three behaviors are self-sacrifice or sacrificial instincts.

[00:12:15]Self-sacrificial instincts, impulses, I'm sorry, not instincts, self-sacrificial impulses, people pleasing, and emotional blackmail or control from the bottom. The clinical term is control from the bottom.

[00:12:31]So people who have been in relationships with virulent narcissists, relationships with narcissists, narcissistic abuse, they tend to develop a variety of strategies to cope with the inferno with the nightmare that the relationship had become, inevitably becomes.

[00:12:52]And so they revert from dreaming to lucid dreaming. I don't know those of you who have experienced lucid dreaming, not many, but in lucid dreaming, you are dreaming, but you can control the dream.

[00:13:07]You can direct the dream. You can also wake yourself up in lucid dreaming. It's a technique. You can learn how to do that. It's fascinating, by the way, because you can direct the dream. It's interesting. Anyhow, the victim of narcissistic abuse tries to revert from dreaming where she is not in control.

[00:13:26]And the dream can become a nightmare at any minute. She tries to revert from this intermittent reinforcement kind of nightmare to lucid dreaming where she would still be dreaming. She would still be embedded in the fantasy, but she could direct the dream. She could control the dream and she could wake herself up from the dream. Totally delusional. Of course, you can you cannot do that. But it's a comforting delusion. It's a form of self soothing.

[00:13:56]In attempting to establish a situation of lucid dreaming, people usually victims usually develop three strategies. The first strategy is people pleasing. Whatever the narcissist says, of course, this that people pleasing is one strategy. Second strategy is self-sacrifice.

[00:14:15]Sacrificing one's essential needs, essential interests and and so on.

[00:14:21]denying one's emotions, self-denial, self- betrayal, self-sacrifice in order to conform to the narcissist expectations and not to contradict or challenge or undermine the internal object that represents you in the narcissist's mind because if you do, you're penalized. You're punished. So, it's a form of operant conditioning.

[00:14:43]Narcissist uses unknowingly operant conditioning. Ironically, the narcissist in the shirt fantasy is a very very accomplished psychologist because he uses a variety of techniques borrowed from multiple fields which indicate intimate acquaintance with with psychology with the field of psychology but he is doing this unconsciously.

[00:15:08]So one of the things a narcissist does is operant conditioning. It's conditioning you to salivate when he gives the cue. And um people pleasing is an adaptation. Say I'm going to please the narcissist in order to avoid. I'm going to sacrifice myself in order to avoid um punitive behaviors.

[00:15:31]These are impulses. These are impulses.

[00:15:33]Impulse is something that you can either control or not control. And in the shared fantasy, these impulses become compulsive. They are not controllable impulses. So we could say that what the narcissist does to you in a shared fantasy, he impairs your impulse control. He impairs your impulse control. You become impulsive.

[00:15:55]But the impulses all have to do with avoiding punishment.

[00:16:02]It's a form of evading the punitive aspects of the relationship. and evading the punitive aspects of the relationship by not being by self-denial, self- betrayal, self-negation, disappearance, by vanishing.

[00:16:22]And this is of course the negating aspect of narcissistic abuse. That's what that's why I coined the phrase narcissistic abuse to set it apart from all other forms of abuse. Only in narcissistic abuse, the main thrust of the abuse, the main purpose of the abuse is to make you be no longer, to unbecome you, to undo you, to take away your being, your existence. It's an existential threat to negate you, to fishiate you. only in narcissistic abuse because as a being, as an entity, as an external object with personal autonomy and independence and so on, you are threatening the internal object. You're threatening the narcissist in inherent equilibrium, peace of mind and so on.

[00:17:14]You create anxiety in the narcissist.

[00:17:16]So, he needs you to die metaphorically and you collude and collaborate with this. You sacrifice yourself. If you remember the human sacrifice in narcissist as a primitive religion, in narcissism as a primitive religion, you collaborate with this primitive religion and you sacrifice yourself. This is the next human sacrifice. The first human sacrifice was the child. The child who sacrificed itself to the false self. The true self was sacrificed to the false self. And now the narcissist is looking for new human sacrifices. And you are one of them. Having sacrificed yourself to the false self, you give up on all agency, self-efficacy, personal autonomy, independence, life in effect.

[00:18:08]You constrict your life to the point that you're nothing but truly an extension of the narcissist there to fulfill his expectations, wishes, dreams, and so on. So if you still have these self-sacrificial in impulses, if you still try to please people, then it's an indication that you have not healed.

[00:18:29]Some victims adopt a third strategy.

[00:18:32]It's more rare and common mostly among people with dependent personality disorder, codependence.

[00:18:39]And this third this third uh strategy is control from the bottom. Emotional blackmail, neediness, clinginess, elevating the narcissist's grandiosity, catering to the narcissist grandiosity, telling the narcissist how indispensable he is, how needed is, how, you know, so it this kind of victim would tell the narcissist, I can't live without you.

[00:19:05]You are my world. I I I I can I can do things only when you are present. You bring out my creativity. You're my life.

[00:19:16]I'm alive when I'm next to you and so on. Which is a form of emotional blackmail because the flip side of these sentences is if I'm alive next to you, I am dead when I'm not with you. It's a form of emotional blackmail. So this is called control from the bottom.

[00:19:34]Codependents are actually control freaks. are highly manipulative and in this sense codependents are very very close. They have close affinity to to narcissists. Of course codependents don't like to hear that because they have this self-imputed angelic impeccable image, immaculate image. They are, you know, the quintessential victims, but they're not. They're highly manipulative.

[00:19:59]But codependents manipulate you via their neediness. It is their neediness that manipulates you because in the case of the narcissist, it caters to the narcissist inflated fantastic unrealistic self-image.

[00:20:16]If someone comes to the narcissist and says, I can't live without you. That's great narcissistic supply. You know, I can't function without you. You're my world. You're my life. I can't create without you. I'm going to dedicate my life to you from now on and so on so forth. All these sentences are narcissistic supply. high-grade narcissistic supply. So what narcissist could resist this? However, it's machavelian.

[00:20:40]It's manipulative, especially since Moscow dependents know that it's not true. They claim to experience these things, but we know from behavioral studies, observational studies that codependents are absolutely manipulative and they know what they're doing.

[00:21:01]It's not that they the manipulation is kind of unconscious. They know exactly what they're doing. So that's the third strategy. If you find yourself sacrificing, self-sacrificial, if you find that you're people pleasing, if you find that you're controlling people via your neediness and clinging and emotional blackmail, you're not healed.

[00:21:23]You're not healed yet. potentially you will never heal because maybe you've always been a people pleaser or a codependent long before the relationship. So then you need to work on yourself regardless of the relationship. If you find these kind of strategies um self-defeating because some people find these kind of strategies very useful, some codependents find these strategies very useful.

[00:21:50]Again, there's nothing right or wrong in psychology. There's nothing bad or good in psychology. If it works for you, it works for you. If you're happy with it, you're happy with it. There are only two tests. Are you happy? And are are you functional in a variety of settings? If you're happy and you're functional in a variety of settings, you're okay. Go home. No need for treatment.

[00:22:13]So, it's up to you.

[00:22:17]The next checkbox in the list is infantile defenses.

[00:22:22]Are you being an infant? So I'll give you an example of infantile defense.

[00:22:27]Splitting. Splitting is an infantile defense. So if you divide everyone into all good and all bad, all right and all wrong, all black and all white, this is called domous thinking. If you have dichotoous thinking, this this is an infantile defense and it is it is proof or indication that the narcissist has regressed you to infancy has infantilized you and you're still there.

[00:22:55]You're still an infant, you know. So when I see people online, self-styled, self-styled, self-proclaimed empaths and they say narcissists are demonic and we are nice and kind and empathic and amazing and and so on so forth. That is of course splitting. It's a splitting defense. Narcissists are all bad. We are all good. It's a splitting defense and a powerful indicator that these people are stuck. They're actually stuck. They're stuck in infancy. They are stuck in the regressive phase that the narcissist pushed them to and they're not healed far from it.

[00:23:36]So infantile defenses, there are other infantile defenses. You know what are infantile defenses? These are psychological defense mechanisms that infants use. People up to age 2 years old, they use these defenses. So we have splitting, we have projection, that's an infantile defense. We have projective identification which is an infantile defense although it's a borderline infantile defense.

[00:24:01]Uh we rationalization is infantile defense. So we have a variety of infantile defenses. If you engage in these infantile defenses, you're still stuck in the infancy phase that the narcissist push you to. If you project onto people what you hate in yourself, things in yourself that you reject, that you don't accept and you project them onto people. For example, you're aggressive.

[00:24:25]You hate it that you're aggressive. You don't want to be aggressive. And so you blame other people of being aggressive.

[00:24:31]You're envious. You're stingy. And you hate the fact that you're envious or stingy. And you project it onto people.

[00:24:38]Say, "I'm not envious. They envy me. I don't envy them. They envy me." or you say, "I'm not stingy. They're stingy."

[00:24:45]So, this is projection. This is what babies do. Children do this. Um, rationalization is when you explain misbehavior or misconduct or things you're ashamed of, you're ego egodistonic with. When you explain these things using a narrative, a narrative that is self-justifying and appears to be rational.

[00:25:09]So this is an um a defense. When you talk to children 2 years old, 3 years old, they will have excellent reasons why they destroy the television set.

[00:25:18]Yeah. And they will give you these reasons and it will be very structured and make a lot of sense and will tempt you to destroy the another television yourself because it makes so much sense.

[00:25:29]So this is rationalization. When you use all when you use these defenses, you're stuck in an infantile phase and you are not healed.

[00:25:38]I'll take a break here just to make um an announcement.

[00:25:42]Tomorrow at around 12:00 or maybe 12:30 uh German radio television will be here.

[00:25:50]They're making a documentary about my work later on. The days following the seminar. It's one of many documentaries and hopefully this one will be positive.

[00:26:00]All the previous one have been super negative.

[00:26:03]Um, in other words, I hope that this particular documentary will be embedded in fantasy, not in reality.

[00:26:12]And um, uh, they would like to talk to a few of you. Those of you who do not want to talk to them, you just tell them, "I don't want to talk." And they will make sure that you're kept out of the picture, literally, like out of the out of the camera. Those of you who who agreed to talk and say bad things about me and horrible things about the seminar and so on, I mean, feel free.

[00:26:36]You can talk to them. I'm not censoring anyone. Of course, I will know who said bad things and there will be a price to pay.

[00:26:44]But um so this is an alert. You you see strange people coming and and they will try to talk to you. So don't be don't be alarmed. They are German, but they're nice people. So Yeah, this is Buen by the way. Buenolin Buen wrote an amazing book on uh Nichi, analyzing Nichi as a narcissist.

[00:27:13]Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:18]It's a book I've read in one go.

[00:27:21]Literally, I started and and finished in one go. It's extremely well written. I mean, I like the way it's written. And um it makes a convincing case that Nichi might have been a narcissist.

[00:27:31]A pretty convincing case. I think there's a lot of depth and erudition there. Of course, Buan is paying me a commission to promote his book. And no, I'm kidding. It's really a good book. I mean, I have to destroy everything. Okay.

[00:27:51]Poor lady. Okay, we continue. We're close to the end of the list. Yay.

[00:28:02]So, the next the next check box is whether you idealize yourself and or devalue yourself. And definitely if you switch between self idealization and self-devaluation that represents um a problem that that's an indicator that you are still in a pathological phase. You are still not healed and not recovered.

[00:28:27]The inability to introspect the inability to create a realistic representation of yourself known as self-concept.

[00:28:36]The inability to create a realistic self-concept.

[00:28:40]the fluctuation, the volatility, the liability between self- idealization, I'm great, I'm angelic, I'm blameless, I'm, you know, perfect, I'm I'm this or that, and self-devaluation, I suck. I always fail, I'm actually ugly, I'm stupid. When you when you oscillate when you pendulate between these two poles it's an indication that you are really really deep in the pathology that you're very far from healing. You need to create a realistic view of yourself realistic self-concept via introspection and self-awareness and so on. When you idealize yourself and of course when you devalue yourself, you're not being self-aware because people sometimes say, "I'm so honest about myself, you know, I'm honest about myself. I know my limitations. I know I'm stupid. I know I'm When you devalue yourself, that is not introspection. That is not a realistic self assessment. There's nothing to be proud of. This is an indication of pathology."

[00:29:43]And so sometimes we glamorize and glorify self-devaluation and or and andor self. So we say we we are modest. We're humble. Narcissists are humble. Very often this is known as pseudo humility. The clinical term is pseudo humility. Narcissists pretend to be modest and humble. But actually it's a way to obtain supply to solicit supply to elicit to provoke people to provide supply. So narcissist would say I know that I'm ugly. Stop. And the expectation is people to say you're not ugly at all.

[00:30:22]You're actually quite handsome.

[00:30:25]That's your cue. No. No.

[00:30:29]Okay. You know what I mean? So this is called pseudo humility.

[00:30:35]And so pseudo humility can disguise or mask a lack of introspection, the need to obtain information and feedback and input from the environment in order to regulate internally.

[00:30:50]So it's an indication of exposure to narcissism. Exposure to narcissism that infected you in effect with narcissism.

[00:31:00]Narcissists have this. Narcissists oscillate between self-devaluation and self idealization. Although in narcissism self idealization can last many years, but at some point the narcissist always self devalues.

[00:31:19]For example, when the narcissist is exposed to narcissistic motification or narcissistic injury, severe narcissistic injury, when there is an ego threat, it's called an ego threat. When there is an ego threat, when there's a failure to obtain supply, collapse, narcissistic collapse. When there's a failure to self-enhance, when the narcissist cannot self-enhance, in all these situations of failure and defeat, the narcissist self devalues.

[00:31:45]So this fluctuation between self idealization and self-devaluation is a narcissistic thing. You may have picked it up from the narcissist or you may have entered the relationship with this propensity to fluctuate but it's been enhanced by the narcissist increased amplified by interacting with the narcissist. And so if you're still doing this then you're infected. You're still infected. Think of it as an infection.

[00:32:11]You know if you still have temperature, still a fever, you're infected.

[00:32:16]Okay.

[00:32:19]The next uh test is objective. It's an objective test.

[00:32:23]Is your functioning restored? In other words, are you functional?

[00:32:28]And people make the mistake of saying, I'm functioning. You see, I'm going to work. I'm accomplishing things at work.

[00:32:36]I I've been commended by my superior and and so on so forth. But at the same time, the family relationships have deteriorated to the point of a divorce.

[00:32:46]So when we talk about proper functioning or restored functioning we are talking about restored functioning in all settings in all settings you cannot isolate one setting and say you see I'm functional but you need to function in all settings that means the workplace socially family friendships you need to to be able to empathize with people you need to be able to maintain relationships invest in um be committed etc etc. You need to accomplish of things of course you need to be efficacious or self-efficacious.

[00:33:22]So restored functioning is is a critical test of of healing.

[00:33:29]The next test is emoting vicariously or emoting by proxy. It it means that normally you cannot express emotions or you don't express emotions. We say we we we found out in studies that victims of abuse and especially victims of narcissistic abuse they have lost their capacity to express emotions.

[00:33:53]They have lost the capacity to experience emotions. This is known as emotional numbing and they have also lost the capacity to express emotions.

[00:34:02]This is known as reduced reduced effect display.

[00:34:07]So this reduction in emotivity, this reduction in emotionality or the ability to affectivity, clinical term is effectivity. This reduction in affectivity is an indication of of um of pathology, indication of a problem. And if you are not able to express emotions or you're not able to experience emotions, you feel numb, you feel dull, you feel dead. Many victims describe feeling dead inside. Say I'm dead inside. When you have all this, it's indic indications of pathology. But there is another phenomenon which is emoting by proxy or vicarious emoting.

[00:34:48]It's when you cannot express emotions and then there's a piece of music wafting through the air and you start to cry.

[00:34:57]Start to cry or you watch a movie, you start to cry or you so this you emote via the movie.

[00:35:04]You emote via the music. You blame the movie. It's such a sad movie. You blame the music. The This music reminded me of someone, you know. So, you displace you displace the emotion. It's like they made me emote. I'm not emoting. These things made me emote. And this vicarious emoting is is a strong indicator of pathology again because healthy people emote. They emote spontaneously. They emote autonomously.

[00:35:33]They Normal people experience emotions and normal people express emotions.

[00:35:37]Sometimes they express emotions non-verbbally effect has many many forms of expression but but they always express emotions. If you unable to do these things and yet you cry when you hear listen to music and you cry when you see a movie or you cry when you when someone tells you a sad story all these are indications that something is wrong with your emotional regulation.

[00:36:01]And so you need to work on it. It's a sign of pathology.

[00:36:07]Um, indicators of continuing pathology or continuing problem is is uh aversion to trusting people. Inability to trust people. Inability to trust people could be the outcome of catastrophizing. If I trust people, it it's going to end badly and I'm going to suffer. So, I'm not going to trust people.

[00:36:31]That's one one aspect or one dimension of it. But you could also not trust people or refuse to to trust people because you have developed the perception that trusting people is naive and weak is a vulnerability. You have adopted the narcissist point of view in effect because narcissists regard trust, emotions, empathy as weaknesses, shortcomings, vulnerabilities, um axis for penetration.

[00:37:05]So having been exposed to the narcissist, you may develop the same worldview and internalize it and begin to believe that if you trust people, you're stupid. If you trust people, you're weak. So there's aversion to trust and sometimes you believe that if you trust people they're going to hurt you. So there's another type of aversion to trust. This leads to fear of intimacy.

[00:37:28]So there is a phobia and we are not talking about people who don't like intimacy. You've all heard of attachment styles and we have insecure attachment styles. We have several of them, three of them. Insecure attachment styles. And in insecure attachment styles, people don't like intimacy. They run away from intimacy. They feel insecure with intimacy. They feel a bit threatened with intimacy and so on. So these are attachment styles. These are not mental illnesses, not mental health disorders.

[00:37:57]We're not talking about this and not talking about um about an attitude to intimacy of um kind of reserve that you're reserved about intimacy. I'm talking about phobia. I'm talking about terror of intimacy. Complete fe complete terror. Fear. Finding intimacy seriously threatening. I like the music, but could you?

[00:38:26]>> Sorry, it's outside still. Can you turn it off?

[00:38:32]Narcissists do not make a distinction between internal and external. Don't tell them.

[00:38:45]I keep telling you and you don't believe me. You don't seem to believe me.

[00:38:50]Okay.

[00:38:52]So, trust aversion for a variety of reasons and terror of intimacy. When intimacy encroaches, when there's a prospect for intimacy, you feel suffocated. There are there is a panic reaction. Absolute panic reaction.

[00:39:09]literally physical panic reaction takia this and that. So I'm talking about this and finally victimhood. We will discuss victimhood tomorrow. But v if you still feel that you're a victim, there's a victim stunt or you have a victim mentality.

[00:39:29]If you believe that victimhood represents who you are, explains your life, makes sense of what has happened, imbuss everything with meaning. When victimhood becomes the organizing principle of your life and the hermeneutic principle, the the principle that explains everything. Hermeneutic means interpretatory interpretation explanation. Yeah. But hermeneutic sounds sounds better because very few people know the world the word and it makes me feel superior. So I'm using hermeneutic. Okay, I'm kidding. But if if uh I'm not kidding. If uh yes, if uh uh victimhood becomes your automatic automatic uh reaction like why this is happening? I'm a victim. How to explain what I'm feeling right now? I'm a victim. Uh what's going to happen tomorrow? Let's see. I'm a victim. So this is going to happen tomorrow. So when when victimhood organizes your internal and external life then it's a sign a sign of pathology and it also means it also means what's happening you're just walking away with strangers like that.

[00:40:49]This is non nonautonomous behavior.

[00:40:52]>> Nonautonomous behavior. I have a casual wife. Yeah.

[00:40:59]So in all in all these cases the assumption of of this identity the assumption of the victimhood identity fulfills basically two roles. The first role when you can make sense of the world and when you can make sense of your life it gives you a sense of control. It's like you're in control. It restores mastery. You are again the master of what has happened to you. It's more or less like a profession you know you become a lawyer you become a professor of psychology or whatever you become something and then it gives you a it organizes your life and it gives you a sense of control and mastery victimhood is the same it's like a profession so that's one thing and second thing victimhood victimhood allows you to deny your own responsibility your own contribution to your condition it allows you to abrogate your accountability. You say, "I am not responsible for what has happened to me because I'm a victim. I have done nothing to deserve this because as you see, I'm a victim." What's going on?

[00:42:09]>> Okay.

[00:42:12]So, when you say I'm a victim, it is anxolytic. It reduces anxiety. It restores equilibrium. It has a self soothing. It's a self soothing behavior.

[00:42:24]You say, "I am not responsible for what has happened to me. I've been a victim and therefore I should not be held accountable for anything I do because I'm a victim." It absolves you. It's redemption. It's almost religious. It's like going to confession. If you're Catholic, you know, it's it's redemption. So victimhood, many people assume the mantle and the identity of victimhood because it caters to many psychological needs. And it's an indicator of pathology of course because the number one thing any clinician will tell you there are few here they can attest to this. The number one thing is to assume responsibility for your life and to acknowledge that something may be wrong and you need help. That's the number one thing. It's the number one precondition for healing. I and only I am responsible for my life internal locus of control and I and only I can help myself if necessary by seeking help.

[00:43:29]These are the preconditions. If you say I am not responsible because I've been victimized or I'm a victim. I'm not responsible and nothing's wrong with me.

[00:43:39]Nothing's wrong with me. I've been a victim. then obviously this is a pathology and and it's not gone away and that's why I am as I told you shocked and furious at the online scene where victimhood is the currency everyone is trading victimhood everyone is competing it's called competi competitive victimhood you go online to these forums and say your abuser is nothing you should have seen my abuser You're a victim. Please, let me tell you what happened to me. And there's victimhood signaling. And there's victimhood rights that impose obligations on other people. And victims, when you try to even hint at a shadow of a possibility that maybe they had something to do with what has happened to them, they become super aggressive. They externalize aggression.

[00:44:37]So these are not good signs. And the people who who the people who maintain the victims in the victimhood state are unscrupulous people. And I don't care if they have a PhD in psychology.

[00:44:52]They are charlatans and con artists.

[00:44:55]They're criminals for doing this because exiting victimhood is the first step on the road to healing.

[00:45:06]The first step. First and foremost, accept responsibility for what has happened to you and then seek help.

[00:45:14]And these people, these YouTubers and so on, they keep the victims in a state of victimhood because it pays. They are laughing all the way to the bank. They make money selling seminars and and if you see the their videos, for example, they they're videos that basically go along the lines, you have done nothing wrong. Poor you. You're an angel and you're also superior and kind and nice and it is the demonic horrible evil narcissist who has done everything to you. You were a passive object.

[00:45:45]The victimhood renders you passive.

[00:45:49]You're a recipient. You're a receptacle.

[00:45:52]You couldn't have done anything. You you're just an object. It is the most objectifying philosophy there is.

[00:46:00]Because if you come to someone, you say you have been a victim. You're objectifying that person. And so I resent and reject also concepts like n magnet.

[00:46:10]Magnets are objects. They're passive.

[00:46:14]Magnets can't do anything about being magnets.

[00:46:17]So if you're an nm magnet, you're doomed. You're just doomed because you attract mag narcissist all the time. N is narcissist. Yes.

[00:46:26]Not what you're thinking. The n word is narcissist. So if you're end magnet then you attract ends ends all the time.

[00:46:34]There's nothing you can do about it.

[00:46:36]This helplessness it's learned helplessness.

[00:46:40]You tell someone you're a victim you're inculcating in them learned helplessness. As a victim you're helpless.

[00:46:49]Continue to be helpless because it's good for business. Please you know these people tell you continue to be victims because it's good for business. And also as long as you're victims, you don't need need to feel bad about yourselves and you don't need to do any work. As long as you're a victim, you know, the minute you admit that maybe you had something to do with what has happened to you, you need to work on yourself.

[00:47:13]You need to work on yourself and you need to admit responsibility. Accept responsibility and you need to be accountable. And who likes that? No one likes that. So everyone and his dog of course wants want to be a victim.

[00:47:27]And because you know it's the comfortable the convenient position that applies by the way not only to victims of narcissistic abuse that applies to victimhood movements. You know blacks are definitely mistreated by the police. Statistically speaking there's no question about it. But are they completely not responsible for their predicament and conditions? Slavery ended to the best of my knowledge like 160 years ago. Are they completely absolved?

[00:47:59]Should we not inquire where what is the contribution of the black population to their condition?

[00:48:05]That is a permanent victimhood state.

[00:48:09]And I'm not exempting the Jews of course the quintessential victims.

[00:48:15]So it applies to collectives to collectives not only to individuals. We have this tendency to say I'm a victim.

[00:48:23]I'm a victim as an individual and I'm a victim as a member of a collective you know as a member of a collective and therefore I I'm not blamew worthy I didn't do anything I contributed nothing and you know I should passively enjoy the benefits of victimhood because I have special rights and so on that applies to women in the me too movement that applies to blacks that applies to Jews with the Holocaust that applies to anyone and everyone who have chosen victimhood as an organizing and hermeneutic oh I love the word principle okay having this was my uh daily politically incorrect dose of political incorrectness there's more to come hopefully um shortly I will let you go and and eat but before that are there any questions regarding regarding ing the checklist regarding the checklist not you know about the general state of the world and so on if the yeah let's yeah >> informing yourself about narcissism and trying to heal is it like a lifelong process or is there a point where by doing this all the time are you like staying in this state of victimhood there are people that say don't you have enough information. You're not a victim.

[00:49:54]Just stop informing yourself. You know enough about narcissism.

[00:50:01]>> One of the things in uh in narcissistic abuse is that as I said, it's addictive for a variety of reasons. You're developing as a victim, you are developing an addiction to the narcissist.

[00:50:13]And many many victims are trying to find ways to stay in touch with the narcissist even as they pretend that they don't want to stay in touch with the narcissist. So for example, litigation, frivolous litigation. It's a way of staying in touch with the narcissist while pretending that you're not in touch with the narcissist. You know, there are many excuses being made. I have to be in touch with the narcissist because we have, I don't know, common children or because it's my mother or because my son or whatever. We need to stay in touch with narcissist, an addiction. The narcissist is the fix.

[00:50:48]The narcissist is a drug. The narcissist is a dose. And as some of you may know, junkies are great at finding ways of perpetuating the addiction and totally justifying it and rationalizing and so on. So, initially, of course, it's good to do some basic research. What is a narcissist? What has happened to me? and what are my chances my prognosis and what should I do about it and so on. If you are extremely slow and intoxicated, this should take a month. Like if you're very slow and intoxicated. If you're a normal person, this should take a week.

[00:51:22]In today's environment, should take a week because you have YouTube channels, you have books, you have a week. Okay?

[00:51:28]So, you dedicate a week. You found out you find out that the narcissist is an exaggerated form of a-hole. You found that the narcissist victimized you. You find that you find out how the narcissist has damaged you and you decide then whether you want to heal all by yourself or you need help and you seek help and that's the end of the story. It would take a week if you are as I said very slow if you continue to watch narcissism videos and and come to seminars and I don't know what for for years this is not uncommon for years then this has nothing to do with healing or recovery this is a form of rumination about rumination this is a form of rumination and it's a way to stay in touch with the narcissist vicariously.

[00:52:22]It's a way to never let go of the narcissist. So these are not healthy.

[00:52:27]Absolutely not healthy. I'm not talking about clinicians and so on, but you know and regrettably the vast majority I mean like 99 probably.9% of of uh people who have been victimized by narcissists develop this addiction and this rumination and and so on and are trapped in a loop. They're trapped in this fantasy land in this They're trapped in this narcissist Disneyland where they watch this video and and then that video and they go from this channel to that channel and everyone tells them contradictory things and then they have to sit to watch a third channel to resolve the contradiction and and it continues and continues and continues and throughout this period of course you're in touch with your narcissist.

[00:53:11]Even if your narcissist had physically literally died and you're still studying narcissism, you're in touch with your narcissist.

[00:53:20]That's how I see it. And it's a form of rumination because you're not focused on solutions. You're focused on the problem. You're studying the problem deeper and deeper and deeper. Where do you think you're going to get? It's a rabbit hole. Where do you think you're going to get? This is wonderland.

[00:53:37]This is wonderland. And you're not even Ellis.

[00:53:41]Where where are you going? Where are you going? Where where do where are people going with this? They're sinking deeper and deeper. They're becoming more pathized, less healthy, less able to help themselves the more they're exposed. If you watch videos about narcissistic abuse, you're exposed to narcissistic abuse. Because if you watch videos about atrocities in some place, you're exposed to the atrocities. You can even acquire PTSD by watching movies, videos about atrocities. By the way, people think that you have to experience the atrocity. You have to witness the atrocity. No. Even by watching videos about atrocities, you can develop full-fledged PTSD. So, you're watching videos about narcissistic abuse. You're reading.

[00:54:30]You're going to seminars. You're talking. You're arguing. You're joining forums. You're this. You're that. And all the time your life is poisoned by narcissistic abuse one way or another.

[00:54:42]You're exposed. You're exposing yourself all the time. What for? What's the idea here? And why is it so important? If your ex has narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, comorbidity of n I I'm getting questions.

[00:55:01]I'm getting questions that you won't believe. It's am I getting like a small book 40 50 pages and then uh based on this do you think he has the following narcissistic narcissistic with borderline psychop why is it important?

[00:55:16]I don't understand unless you're a clinician. Yes.

[00:55:21]Yeah, but these people are not asking about Erdogan Putin and Netanyahu. They are asking about their exes.

[00:55:28]>> They're not doing this because they're interested in Erdogan. I'm sorry.

[00:55:33]>> No, no, no. You're not asking about your ex because you're interested in Erdogan.

[00:55:37]This is completely I'm sorry off the charts. You're asking about your ex because you're interested in your ex.

[00:55:44]But why is it important if your what kind of a-hole your your ex is? Why is it important? I get I get emails and I get inquiries regarding politics. I even give interviews about politics. I was among the first to make a video about Erdogan. It was 15 years ago saying that he's a narcissist. Among the first. Of course, there's a place to study narcissism as a phenomena in politics or in show business or in various industries or in technology. There's a lot of narcissism in high technology. There's a a lot of mental illness in high technology and so on. There is a place for this. But the people who write to me about their exes, I don't believe that they're actually they're interested in a dugan, but they're asking about their ex. They're asking about their ex. And why this why this need to classify and to >> I don't I don't I don't think we'll discuss closure by the way uh shortly but I don't see how diagnosing your ex would give you closure. It's not about giving you closure. It's about giving you absolution and redemption. You say, "Now I know that he's a narcissist and I had nothing to do with it." Actually, you you want to diagnose your your ex as a narcissist. To absolve yourself to say actually I was a victim. I suffered because I came across a force of nature called the narcissist. So, it's very important for me to define whether my ex was a narcissist, psychopath, borderline, or just an a-hole jerk. But I don't encourage this. I think your focus should be on you, not on your ex.

[00:57:37]Your ex hopefully is an ex. Bye-bye.

[00:57:42]Bye-bye physically. Bye-bye emotionally.

[00:57:45]Bye-bye psychologically.

[00:57:50]>> We'll discuss kids in in a minute.

[00:57:53]But but I think most of the interest in diagnosing exes and lover ex-lovers and expouses and so on so forth is not at all about the expouses and the ex-lovers or Erdogan. It's about self-justification. It's about saying now I have proof that I've been victimized.

[00:58:15]Now I know that I have little or nothing to do with it. Now I can say that I um have been a passive recipient of evil.

[00:58:27]So and this is the main motivation. Of course you can find the rare exceptions of people who are doing it for other but I think that's absolutely the main motivation and I do not encourage this motivation at all. I do not encourage this motivation. Only clinicians have a legitimate interest in the diagnosis of people. End of story. layman do not have a legitimate interest in diagnosing other people.

[00:58:53]>> Period.

[00:58:55]Period.

[00:58:56]>> I've got a question.

[00:58:57]>> Yeah.

[00:58:58]>> This this side this side.

[00:59:02]>> Where?

[00:59:03]>> Yeah.

[00:59:04]>> I was going to ask a question about the uh current in um blame culture. Whenever we got a problem, we blame we tend to blame on the other side whether it's the our manager, colleagues, wives, anyone, friends. Um so the question is you know as not as a clinician but as an you know as we all have come across uh you know people who are complain about their marriages. Okay. So if you listen to the the people we will always blame their other side and then I mean in our blame mind we we we tend to call the other side the narcissist as if you're a clinician.

[00:59:48]So essentially from what I have heard from you that let's say the in order to the first step is uh to taking the ownership of your own life.

[00:59:58]So is the the blame rather than taking ownership is the main source of the problem we have both in the narcissist because he he he can be wrong as well as the victim.

[01:00:12]>> So I said um day before I I I discussed victimhood movements and I I I I said that today everyone wants to be a victim. Victimhood organizes our life.

[01:00:24]There is a victimhood organizing principle and victimhood victimhood makes sense of life and and I I I quoted the sociologist Campbell that we transitioned from age of dignity to age of victimhood and victimhood means that you blame other people victims victimhood is about blaming other people. Victimhood is an aloplastic defense and that's why victimhood is a form of narcissism.

[01:00:52]victimhood as an identity, not being a victim. Of course, people are victimized, but victimhood is as an identity is definitely a form of narcissism as now we are beginning to understand. And I mentioned the work by by Israeli psychologists in 2020, psychologists in British Columbia, psychologist in Taiwan and so on. We are beginning to understand that victimhood identity is a form of narcissism in effect. And all these victimhood movements are controlled and infested with narcissists and psychopaths by the way. So when you blame other people for anything for failure, for defeat, for victimhood, the minute you blame other people as a policy, not occasionally, but as a reflex, as an impulse, you blame other people all the time, then yes, it's narcissism. Absolutely. So I think move movements like Black Lives Matter and Me too and so on so forth are narcissistic in my view. Yeah.

[01:02:01]>> Um this microphone is coming because we're recording all this and we're going to use it against you later.

[01:02:11]So of course I don't know the motivation of others but um I think if somebody lives in a shared fantasy at least um I wanted to gain back the control you know of the of my life. So I watching these videos not because I want to feel myself victimized. I want to understand what happened to me. not because of the blaming of the narcissist but because to understand my story to understand why I needed this experience.

[01:02:43]So I don't know maybe a lot of other I don't know survivors uh do the same just to understand to to what happened and why happened you know not >> I don't I don't think these videos give you this >> 99% of these videos >> yeah but I think your videos your supply uh your videos do this and um the other question and I will be sure that uh you always talk about u about this charlatans about I'm sorry the charlatans or you know self um how you say selfyled experts >> yes and uh is it a big question to ask some names or with whom you of course you want >> this I will not do >> this I will not do because the seminar is limited to four days >> good man >> but I will I will answer what you your first uh question and I will also explain what I mean when I say self-styled experts. Okay? Because that's legitimate to ask what do I mean when I say this.

[01:03:50]Uh when when someone declares that they are an expert in something, we have ways of testing or checking uh whether this expertise is real or whether it's a con artist or charlatan.

[01:04:05]Yeah. So for example, one of the ways how many articles did you publish about the topic academically? I mean peer-reviewed articles. How many did you publish about the topic? There are people online with PhDs in psychology and so on who have never published a single article on the topic and they claim to be experts.

[01:04:25]You can ask me that that's fair. 23 in the past four years. That's fair.

[01:04:32]Similarly, someone participation in international conferences on the topic. There are people online with PhD. I'm limiting myself to people with PhDs in psychology. I'm not talking now of course about YouTubers who you know I'm talking about people with PhD in psychology. So how many international conferences did you participate and submitted of course a paper or presentation or something actively participated in in the past I think it's fair in the past 10 years on the topic before you you claim you're an expert no how many so there are people online with PhD in psychology who have participated who have not participated in a single conference not You can ask me this question 250.

[01:05:24]It's all available online. You can check my participation. I'm listed.

[01:05:30]Uh another question is this your expertise? Is this the topic you studied? I mean you have a PhD in psychology but psychology is a giant field.

[01:05:39]Did you study schizophrenia?

[01:05:41]Did you study I mean what is it that you study? Was narcissism your main field of study before you claim to be an expert?

[01:05:50]You know, so there is someone online who claims to be an expert and her field of study was vaccine hesitancy.

[01:05:58]I'm kidding you not. She has never published anything remotely that has to do with cluster B, let alone narcissism.

[01:06:07]And she did publish quite a few papers, like 20, 30 papers on vaccine hesitancy.

[01:06:14]And yet she is online and considered to be one of the leading experts on narcissism. She has never published anything on narcissism. Never participated in any conference on narcissism. Never contributed a chapter to any book on narcissism. Never was never quoted in serious academic books.

[01:06:34]Never quoted in never cited in academic articles by others and so on. And yet she is considered to be possibly the leading expert on narcissism. I mean online, not academically. You could ask me the same questions. It's completely legitimate. My work has been cited in 2360 academic articles. It's easy to verify.

[01:06:58]My my work has been cited in well over 3,000 books.

[01:07:03]So, if you ask me about schizophrenia or vaccine hesitancy or vaccine hesitancy, of course, I'm not an expert. And if I dare to go online tomorrow and make videos about about vaccine hesitancy, you could apply the same criteria to me and claim that I'm a charlatan and I would give you the full right to do this.

[01:07:24]So, these are self-styled experts. You understand?

[01:07:27]Regarding your first question, I make a clear distinction between clinicians, mental health practitioners, professionals, and professors of psychology and so on and lay men. I make a clear distinction. Lay men, lay lay persons, lay men, lay lay women. Lay woman doesn't sound good. It's a bit pornographic. So, um, lay persons.

[01:07:55]Yes.

[01:07:57]the imagery is killing me. So, um I think that the the test and I believe the only relevant test is whether the relationship worked for you or not. How did you feel in the relationship? If you felt bad in a relationship, you obviously have to exit the relationship.

[01:08:19]You can then use the services of professionals to try to recover and to heal.

[01:08:26]Understanding the intricacies of the shared fantasy I doubt if it will have any any meaningful or major contribution to your healing and recovery in some cases could trigger you actually and regress you.

[01:08:38]So I do not equate layman to to professionals. We live in an age, the age that I call malignant egalitarianism.

[01:08:50]Malignant egalitarianism.

[01:08:52]Anyone with a smartphone and access to Wikipedia is a self-proclaimed expert.

[01:08:57]So people argue with medical doctors as is they are on the same footing. You know, I see videos by people trashing medical doctors on medical issues, you know, and and so on. I disagree with this. I do think that professionals have an edge and an advantage and I do think that layman should not indulge themselves with certain types of materials that they are not qualified or able to properly understand.

[01:09:28]I'm sorry I'm an elitist in this sense.

[01:09:31]I'm an elitist. Absolutely.

[01:09:34]I think what's happening is that victims are enter this rabbit hole and most of the exposure is to videos that tell them that they've been victimized. They're victims and therefore they bear no responsibility.

[01:09:52]Videos that demonize the narcissist counterfactually. These videos are fantasies in effect. And so these videos create an alternative shared fantasy.

[01:10:01]the shared fantasy of the victims.

[01:10:04]Whereas the initial shared fantasy was with the narcissist, now you're making a shared fantasy with your fellow victims, with your like-minded victims. It's another fantasy. It's a perpetuation of the pathology.

[01:10:18]And yes, of course, you can watch some Vaknin videos and you can watch some Vaknin videos and you will maybe gain some understanding of the shared fantasy and so on. But no, it's not relevant to your recovery and healing. For example, if you go to a clinician, the clinician is extremely unlikely to discuss with you a shared fantasy. the concept of the shared fantasy extremely like super unlikely the clinician will discuss with you other issues self-regulation emotional regulation this that will teach you to control your impulses and so but no clinician will go into the theoretical superructure and hyperstructure and infrastructure of the narcissist narcissistic personality disorder shared fantasy it's all not only unnecessary sometimes damaging and this is my beef with these self-styled experts who are not experts.

[01:11:10]They're charlatans and con con artists.

[01:11:14]This is my beef with them because that's precisely what they do. They get you addicted to this rabbit hole. They afford you, they give you another shared fantasy and you get trapped in this shared fantasy.

[01:11:27]And in this sense, these self-styled experts are narcissists. In effect, they're narcissists.

[01:11:33]They're just the next narcissist.

[01:11:36]I discourage this completely. Now you're here in a seminar and that's a bit of entertainment. But if your belief or motivation is that you come to such a seminar and the added knowledge can somehow heal you or recover you and so you're in the wrong place. It's not going to heal you, not going to recover you. I'm here to teach you about healing and recovery to summarize for you the literature. This is called literature review. I'm here to give you literature review but nothing more. Definitely. I'm not pretending that any of this will create positive dynamics that would lead to healing and recovery.

[01:12:08]And so we have this phenomenon in in medicine. I've seen I've seen you we have this phenomenon in in medicine for example. People contract a disease. So they're diagnosed with I don't know breast cancer or whatever.

[01:12:23]So they go online. Of course, you should go online and you should read material that is for laymen about breast cancer.

[01:12:30]It's useful. It's it's recommended and and so on so forth up to a point. But then people transition to become experts on breast cancer. Not only experts but the world's leading experts on breast cancer. And they start to argue with their doctors.

[01:12:48]And they don't argue with the doctors about global things like that's my preference. I would I would prefer this to this which is legitimate of course but they start to argue with the doctors about matters of professional knowledge.

[01:13:02]This what is happening and it's a global phenomenon is bad. This is bad. There are experts and professionals and we are superior to you and you should accept our authority. End of story.

[01:13:19]So I don't I'm against malignant egalitarianism and I think it's being abused by people. So you have many people online who are making videos about cancer and these videos are bogus. They contain misinformation, dangerous disinformation, all kinds of junk and nonsense. But because people want to become medical doctors within six months or medical doctors within six weeks, they are victimized by these YouTubers.

[01:13:50]They are exposed to this misinformation and disinformation. Why? Because you don't have the tools to know what is true and what is not, what is real and what is not. You were not educated. You don't have the education.

[01:14:04]So it's very presumptuous. On the one hand, it's grandiose and it's also happens to be very dangerous. If you if you have been exposed to the concept of the shared fantasy and you think that by watching videos or even listening to this seminar, you have full grasp of it. You don't.

[01:14:25]You don't. And yet you may convince yourself that you do. And that would lead you astray and even to some dangers.

[01:14:34]It's bad. It's a bad situation.

[01:14:36]Generally speaking, yes, >> Sam, I just wanted to ask you about this. Um, I think many people I've spoken to here have talked about wanting to know, were they a narcissist personality or disordered and I wonder if some of the information that we all seek, I'm a clinician and a lay person that we are seeking a diagnosis. We're told we're not allowed to diagnose people, but equally the individuals often don't come for diagnosis because of their condition. And I wonder if what we're looking for in all this information is enough confirmation for us to feel I got an answer to what happened to me. That's what I find in my clinical practice and indeed myself.

[01:15:16]>> Yes, of course. This is a motivation, but it's delusional.

[01:15:22]It is a motivation. Fantasy is a motivation. Delusion is a motivation.

[01:15:26]Lying to yourself is often useful. I mean work works. Selfdeception is a motivation. If you convince yourself that you're qualified to diagnose and you're not, that is delusional. It's selfdeceptive.

[01:15:42]You're not qualified to di not you. I mean generally people are not qualified to diagnose. Never mind how many videos they watch.

[01:15:50]So when people say I want to know the diagnosis because it gives me comfort or I want to know the diagnosis because but you're not qualified to diagnose. You will never ever know the diagnosis because you're not qualified to diagnose. I think that's what I'm trying to say. Basically your goal is fantastic. Your goal is grandiose.

[01:16:13]Your goal is narcissistic.

[01:16:15]If you as a lay person go online and say, "I'm going to watch a 100 videos and then I'm going to decide if my ex is a narcissist, you're being narcissistic.

[01:16:25]You're being grandiose. You're deluding.

[01:16:28]You're being delusional."

[01:16:30]Because no amount of videos, if you're a layman, you're not trained. You're not No amount of videos would teach you how to diagnose a narcissist. Even clinicians find it extremely difficult to diagnose narcissism because narcissism is intertwined with a variety of co-orbidities and mood disorder. It's a bloody mess to diagnose narcissism.

[01:16:49]Even worse is autism. Even worse is autism. So mothers go online and they watch videos and they diagnose their children with autism. when experienced clinicians need months to diagnose autism and sometimes years to diagnose autism and everyone now has autistic children and autistic I don't know what and so on so forth because they have decided so and Elon Musk decided that he's he is autistic Musk has never been seen by a therapist he admits so in the in the in the biography isakson's biography Elon Musk has been interviewed several times in the biography and he says I never saw a therapist. So, how do you know you're autistic? I decided I I I read a lot. I watch videos. I decided that I'm So, he's self diagnosed as autistic. And now, everyone says he's autistic. Elon Musk is no more autistic than me. Elon Musk is a narcissist. Malignant narcissist, extreme form, totally psychopathic.

[01:17:46]And yet, he's self diagnosed as autistic because he watch videos. This is out of hand. The situation is completely out of hand, you know.

[01:17:54]So if you're not qualified to diagnose narcissism, why are you bothering? Don't bother. The question, the critical question, are you happy? You're not happy, get out. You're not happy, get out. And if you're still not happy, seek help and help and, you know, heal and recover. End of story.

[01:18:15]Expert testimony is legitimate. It's a clinician.

[01:18:21]Expert testimony is a clinician.

[01:18:28]>> Expert testimony involves a clinician.

[01:18:31]Expert testimony involves a clinician.

[01:18:34]So it's okay. I have nothing against this. But if you go to the court and say my husband is a narcissist, I am totally against this.

[01:18:43]Totally irredeemably against this. You have no qualification to diagnose your husband.

[01:18:50]>> You cannot do anything. You can list what has happened. You can make a list of what happened.

[01:18:56]>> You can list everything he has said. You can list everything he has done. You are not qualified to diagnose him with anything. Period.