Christian & Muslim Discuss The Trinity & The Bible Who Really Follows Jesus | Speakers Corner

[00:00:00]The NIV sets out to express the best example of the Bible referring to the Greek manuscripts. There are 30,000 of those. He is forgiving. He is loving. He is almighty. He's all powerful. But what he is not is human.

[00:00:16]This is why we need Jesus because Jesus gives us humanity.

[00:00:19]>> Do you believe that the father can die?

[00:00:21]>> Do I believe that the father can die?

[00:00:23]No. No, I don't.

[00:00:24]>> Do you believe the Holy Spirit can die?

[00:00:27]>> I have no idea. I'm not forcing you and cajoling you into, oh no, now you're this. I'm not putting you in a box. I'm just getting you to think broadly prophecies that it makes, historical evidence, the philosophical claims it makes that the prophet made, the rational claims and how it makes sense.

[00:00:43]It's practical and how it's in line with what the previous prophets teach.

[00:00:47]>> Someone who gave you a moral law, someone who gave you a things to teach.

[00:00:52]>> I'm getting there.

[00:01:03]The NIV sets out to express the best example of the Bible referring to the Greek manuscripts. There are 30,000 of those. And apparently they don't contradict, which is pretty amazing.

[00:01:17]>> According to who?

[00:01:18]>> According to my friend, >> according to Bruce Meza, they do.

[00:01:22]>> I have to study him.

[00:01:23]>> Yeah. And the King James, which I still stand by, sets out to give a clear example of the gospel. I have the King James with me. I can tell you what it's I can read what it says.

[00:01:34]>> But before we look at the actual verses of the King James, let's let's look at how the King James was actually compiled. I'm guessing from the previous time you did research into the how many manuscripts KJV uses, right?

[00:01:46]>> Yes.

[00:01:48]spiritually trying to get to. You want maybe to say it openly because otherwise I'm going to be sort of going around and not really know what you mean, you know.

[00:01:54]>> No, you're saying that the NIV refers to in your words at least a thousand manuscripts. You said >> it refer Well, it's it's based upon >> 30,000 manuscripts. Yes.

[00:02:04]>> And KJV tell me sorry the KJV tell me your understanding about how it was compiled.

[00:02:09]>> KJ right I'm getting to that.

[00:02:11]>> You're just going to read the preface.

[00:02:13]They don't mention everything in the preface.

[00:02:15]>> I had read it somewhere. So did you go to school to study these things or what did you >> I have been to school. Yeah.

[00:02:21]>> What did you study?

[00:02:22]>> I've studied a wide range of things.

[00:02:24]>> All right. This is not the wrong I think. Anyway, I'm I can't The format of the New King James Version is designed to enhance the vividness and devotional quality of the holy scriptures.

[00:02:35]Subject headings assist the reader to identify topics of transitions in the biblical context.

[00:02:42]words or phrases in italics indicate expressions in the original language which require clarification.

[00:02:47]>> I'm looking more along the history and how it's formed. Yeah. In terms of which manuscripts from from >> so it's not designed to just copy the the old Hebrew script the Greek scriptures. It's designed to give a a clear and good understanding of what the scriptures say. And these 80 parts that you found which are missing in this book they do not contradict you haven't given any examples where they contradict. So it does nothing to diminish the historicity of either book. Just to reiterate my question. My question was how was the KJV formed in terms of manuscripts and in terms of its foundation.

[00:03:26]>> You're telling me about internal contradictions which is another subject and we'll get on to that. Tell me about the NIV. I want to see if you know about the KJV and I want to see if you know the differences. If you don't, say I don't and I will tell you and then you can check it up. Like like I told you last time, I'm not here to trip you up.

[00:03:42]If there's something you don't know, I'll tell you. You're more than welcome to go check it up and then come back to me again.

[00:03:47]>> Well, please enlighten me because I don't know the difference.

[00:03:49]>> So, the KJV is based upon the works of Arasmus which looks at only 6 to 12 manuscripts, no more than 12 manuscripts. And the manuscripts that it looks at about 1,500 years after Jesus, they're the Bisantine manuscripts. So they're the very old ones, not the early ones at all. In fact, I I'm not sure if you're aware, the KJV that you're reading today has 66 books. Correct?

[00:04:16]>> Yes.

[00:04:16]>> But the Apocrypha were actually included in the early KJV. Are you aware of this?

[00:04:22]>> Yes, >> you do know. So in the 1611 the apocrypha sorry >> the the prophets and things >> second makabes Judith Srirach I >> I think there's contention about these books >> no that's why I'm saying there's contention about them today that's why the protestant version of the Bible has 66 books the Catholic has 73 books and the additional books the Protestants claim that they are apocrypha you're a Protestant right >> arguably I I I believe in faith through Christ >> right so the earliest KJV that you're supposed to believe is divinely he had the holy spirit in him king James and it's the most accurate version of the bible that you have the first printing of it in 1611 actually had the apocrypha in it was only removed in the 19th century and that was because of catholic influence and because there was too much printing so they just wanted to reduce it you can check all this up that's the first thing so 6 to 12 manuscripts only when the NIV according to you looks to 30,000. Secondly, it includes or it mentions the later manuscripts. It does not take into consideration the earliest complete manuscript. Are you aware of the earliest complete manuscript that you guys have?

[00:05:37]>> Is it the set?

[00:05:38]>> No.

[00:05:38]>> No. The sinaticus.

[00:05:40]>> Okay. Yes.

[00:05:40]>> So, the scaticus, the Vaticanis, those are the earliest ones that you have. KJV doesn't take those into consideration.

[00:05:48]That's what we're going to get into. And >> does Arasmus take them into consideration?

[00:05:51]>> He doesn't know. He only took the ones that were available to his locality. He took the inductive method. You can look into this because unless there's somebody that knows this that's looked into it, it's just going to be me speaking to myself in other words, isn't it? So again, you've got all of these cameras here. You can check this all yourself. And later manuscripts that don't take this into consideration. And even if you look at the Old Testament, it takes into account the Maseratic text, not the Lenengrad, which is the updated text. And it doesn't take into account the Dead Sea Scrolls. So when you take all of these things into consideration, that's why I'll come across certain people when I mention the KJV, they look at me in disgust and go, "Oh, no, no." We follow the NIV that takes into consideration the newest manuscripts. That is the backdrop behind the KJV. Bearing that in mind, the codec sinaticus, the earliest manuscript does not mention the clearest verse of the trinity that you have, which is 1 John 5:7. Anything other than that is up to debate, speculation, it's interpretation.

[00:07:01]But the clearest scriptures >> you will and you'll be proving my case which is that you'll have to interpret and you'll have to do an IC Jesus uh based upon the scholars that you have because the Bible itself clearly and explicitly does not say the concept of the trinity that you have today. Now I don't want to straw man you so just tell me your standing your concept of the trinity as extensively >> a beautiful question.

[00:07:28]>> Yes of course thank you. Oh my. Well, thank God.

[00:07:31]>> I'm so glad you said that.

[00:07:32]>> I know that's what you've been researching after last time.

[00:07:35]>> Oh man, >> I'm I'm well aware of that.

[00:07:37]>> Right. So So let me get So your Islamic, you believe in one God.

[00:07:42]>> Try to do the trinity based upon your beliefs. Yeah. Leave me out of it.

[00:07:47]Christianity doesn't need Islam to justify it.

[00:07:49]>> Understanding. You believe in one God.

[00:07:51]You believe in a a god outside of this world, outside a creator of the universe, someone who gave you a moral law, someone who gave you a things to teach.

[00:08:00]>> What's trinity?

[00:08:02]>> I'm getting there. Let me let me speak.

[00:08:04]So, >> I'm letting you speak, but you're talking about my beliefs. If you want to know my beliefs, I'll tell you my beliefs, but I want to know your belief.

[00:08:10]I >> I I need to say this to give you context. It's important.

[00:08:12]>> I know the context of my belief, Josh.

[00:08:14]>> Maybe you don't know that.

[00:08:15]>> But you're just telling me my belief.

[00:08:17]>> Good. Well, that means we're mut mutual understanding. So >> go ahead John.

[00:08:21]>> God is the same as this Islamic God to an extent. We we believe he is outside of the universe. He created the universe. He is forgiving. He is loving.

[00:08:31]He is almighty. He's all powerful. But what he is not is human.

[00:08:36]This is why we need Jesus because Jesus gives us humanity.

[00:08:39]Jesus died on the cross for our sins, forgave us of our sins.

[00:08:43]>> Josh, you're giving me detail that we need to discuss later on. First, I need a rudimentary definition of trinity from you. So, I don't straw man you. I just need a rudimentary >> describing the three aspects of the trinity.

[00:08:54]>> Try to do them briefly. I just want definition. Then we I'll give you plenty of time to expand upon it and then we'll go back and forth. That's later on. We need to get the definitions out the way first.

[00:09:03]>> My words when it comes to this because it's important.

[00:09:06]>> I'm not asking you to Sorry, what do you say?

[00:09:08]>> I won't limit what I have to say because what I have to say is important.

[00:09:11]>> I'm not asking you to limit what you're saying. I'm just saying be specific. be particular because if you give me a long explanation, I won't be able to respond to that and there's more chance of me misrepresenting what you're saying. If you are concise, sorry, >> I think I'm being clear.

[00:09:27]>> I'm not saying you're not being clear.

[00:09:28]I'm saying be concise. There's a difference between being clear and concise.

[00:09:33]>> One is the amount, one is a selection of words. I'm telling you to lower your amount so I don't misrepresent you. If you go on, most likely you're going to get offended later on. I'm just warning you before. God is the creator. Jesus gives us humanity. The Holy Spirit is intercedes between the two. The Holy Spirit, God gives us, but the Holy Spirit, he's like an encourager. He comes. He is like the He's almost like the mercy that God brings.

[00:09:59]>> I don't want to know what he's like.

[00:10:00]Tell me what he is.

[00:10:02]>> I don't know any fundamental truths.

[00:10:04]>> Well, surely you need Trinity to attain salvation.

[00:10:07]>> So, if you don't know any fundamental truths, I'm speaking to >> Trinity doesn't isn't salvation. Jesus is salvation. But to Jesus's concept and Jesus's role within the Trinity has to be accepted for you to go into the kingdom of God. Correct.

[00:10:21]>> The answer is yes, Josh.

[00:10:22]>> The trinity describes >> that's why you label people like totally and origin as heretics because they use concepts like subordinism and they misrepresented the trinity which you guys don't agree with. That's why we want things to be clear. I want to know what sort of trinitarian you are. Are you a subordinist? Are you somebody that believes in co-equality? You need to make that clear before we continue.

[00:10:43]>> I don't I don't even know what these words mean. I'm sorry.

[00:10:45]>> Let me help you out then. Do you believe that the three persons of the Trinity are co-equal?

[00:10:51]>> Yes.

[00:10:51]>> Do you believe they're co-eternal?

[00:10:54]>> Yes.

[00:10:54]>> Do you believe they are three separate persons?

[00:10:58]>> Yes.

[00:10:59]>> That's what I wanted. I wanted to see if your view of the Trinity aligns with the typical view today and then we can jump into how you evidence that from the Bible. Otherwise, you'd be mentioning something else, subordinism, which a few people have. So, can you prove from the Bible that the father, the son, and the holy spirit, the three are one, but three persons, which you've just >> I pro three are one. I'm going to try Philippians 2.

[00:11:26]>> You're going to fail miserably. You can look, but I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. I didn't discourage you. Your church fathers did because No, no. The church fathers, it took them 300 years to come together in the council of Nika and to formulate what the trinity actually is because it's not found in the Bible. Why on earth would they be coming together if it was found in the Bible?

[00:11:48]>> The very weather is very unpredictable today. It was nice and sunny. I had my sunglasses on. Now the clouds are I look like a mug. He knows that's not good enough for the Trinity.

[00:11:57]>> Well, tell me about was it John 6 that you I can use first John. Oh, it's going to be one of those days. Josh, you were supposed to have done your homework before coming to >> I don't think.

[00:12:07]>> No problem. No, it's fine. Remember last time I >> tell me about Islam. I want to know about Islam.

[00:12:12]>> So, our definition, that's why I told you to keep it concise because I'm going to keep it concise as well. Yeah.

[00:12:16]Chapter 112 of the Quran gives us a very fundamental and rudimentary definition of God. Say he is God the one independent does not begget nor is he begotten and there's none like him.

[00:12:29]That's all it is. That's our very simple rudimentary fundamental definition of God. We don't believe that God can be three Josh. Yeah. Reason being because when you say he's co-equal, all three are co-equal, co-eternal, it leads to contradictions. You cannot believe in the trinity >> contradictions.

[00:12:49]>> That's why I mentioned last time I can reiterate it. If you believe Jesus is man, then you accept that his power is limited and his knowledge is limited.

[00:13:00]But if you believe Jesus is God as well, then God's power is unlimited and God's knowledge is unlimited. So to believe that Jesus is all powerful and limited in power is a contradiction. To believe he's all limited in knowledge is a contradiction. So you cannot believe in trinity without accepting contradiction.

[00:13:22]>> It's a contradiction based on what you assumption.

[00:13:26]>> Logic is not assumption. Josh, logic is an objective. Logic is >> You assume that because he's a man, he is not all powerful. That isn't logic.

[00:13:35]That's your assumption.

[00:13:36]>> Let me expound upon what I said.

[00:13:38]Whenever somebody studies logic, there are three fundamental laws that are extremely important. You cannot neglect them. One is the law of non-contradiction. One is the law of identity. And one is the law of excluded middle. The trinity. What I just said violates not one, not two, but all three of those fundamental rudimentary laws of logic. These are laws of logic, Josh.

[00:14:05]They are not something that I picked out of my pocket. The law of non-contradiction is something we have to accept and acknowledge for us to live in our daily life. No one can.

[00:14:14]>> How does Jesus being God and man have no contradictions?

[00:14:19]>> That's your claim that it has no contradictions. My claim is it does have contradictions, >> right? How so?

[00:14:23]>> Because of the reason that I just said that if >> you need to give me examples of how it contradicts.

[00:14:27]>> I just did. I didn't. I'll give it again. You believe Jesus is limited in knowledge and power. Correct?

[00:14:34]>> No.

[00:14:34]>> So you believe Jesus is all knowledgeable and all powerful.

[00:14:37]>> Yes.

[00:14:38]>> So when Jesus says no one knows the hour but the father, then Jesus is lying.

[00:14:43]>> And Jesus when he says not my will but the will of my father, I can't do nothing but through him, he's lying.

[00:14:49]No one knows the hour but the father.

[00:14:51]>> Yes, not the angels in heaven and the word only the father. The Greek is very clear. And if you look at the commentaries, Athanasius and Irenaeus make this explicitly clear.

[00:15:03]>> He's not lying. He's referring to himself as well.

[00:15:06]>> I know Jesus is talking about himself that he doesn't know the hour. He does not.

[00:15:10]>> I don't know the hour. He's saying no one knows the hour but the father. And he refers to himself as the father.

[00:15:15]>> Only the father, not the son. He's the son, right? Which scripture is this then?

[00:15:19]>> Send Gospel of Mark.

[00:15:21]>> Oh, I can't.

[00:15:22]>> Just whip it out. No problem. I'll I'll read it out to you. Burbbitum. I'm going to read this out to you. Yeah.

[00:15:28]>> What's going on with the internet? I'll read from the uh KJV. Yeah.

[00:15:32]>> I thought you didn't like your KJV.

[00:15:33]>> I don't. But I have to respect my interlocator here.

[00:15:36]>> Fair enough.

[00:15:37]>> Just because I don't like something I don't like polytheism, but you do. So, >> I don't like polytheism.

[00:15:43]>> Well, we'll come to that. KJV. Yeah, no problem. But of that day, that hour, knoweth no man, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son, but the father.

[00:15:54]>> So this is Matthew 13:32.

[00:15:57]>> Yes. Yes. I'll give you Luke afterwards, which Jesus says is growing in wisdom as well.

[00:16:02]>> You should see the new Trump Bible. I saw in Texas like >> Trump Bible 69 >> 69.99. At least it's not 70. 69 people are buying it.

[00:16:10]>> That's obviously a joke.

[00:16:14]Bible just signed it. You know >> business must be a different >> Mark 13:3. You've got it.

[00:16:25]>> I don't think I'm awake today.

[00:16:27]>> You are on Mark. Let me help you find it. I'll help you find it. Mark 13:32.

[00:16:30]Say it. Say it. Mark. I like Mark. Mark 13:32.

[00:16:36]13.

[00:16:37]>> And you think people >> So, how do you feel about works and faith? 13.

[00:16:44]>> 13. Yeah.

[00:16:46]>> Right at the bottom over here. Yeah. You got it.

[00:16:47]>> Yeah.

[00:16:48]>> But on that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the father. Yep. I accept that one.

[00:16:56]>> So Jesus is >> limited in knowledge.

[00:16:58]>> And he is not limited in power as well.

[00:17:00]You accept that as well? So if he's limited in knowledge and power and God is unlimited in knowledge and power, this is contradiction.

[00:17:06]>> If he is limited in knowledge and power, God is unlimited in knowledge and power.

[00:17:10]It's a contradiction that they aren't the same, that they aren't one.

[00:17:13]>> They're the polar opposites.

[00:17:16]>> Well, they are polar opposites, but >> they are. One is all knowledgeable. One is limited in knowledge.

[00:17:22]>> It's not all knowledgeable. All knowledgeable. Even in authority, God has authority. Jesus says, "I get my authority through him."

[00:17:31]>> Take that.

[00:17:31]>> Yep. And >> to study the trinity in my doubts. We accept that. So when it comes to the trinity, even if you then expound upon the fundamentals of Christianity, do you believe that the father can die?

[00:17:43]>> Do I believe that the father can die?

[00:17:45]No. No, I don't.

[00:17:46]>> You believe the holy spirit can die?

[00:17:49]>> I have no idea. I would hesitate to guess.

[00:17:52]>> So no for the father, no for the holy spirit. Can the son die?

[00:17:56]>> He can, but he didn't die in the spirit.

[00:17:57]He died in the flesh.

[00:17:59]>> He died in spirit but not in flesh.

[00:18:01]>> No, he died not in spirit.

[00:18:03]>> Oh, he died in flesh but not the spirit.

[00:18:04]Yeah.

[00:18:05]>> So just as a human being, he died, >> I think.

[00:18:08]>> So there's two Jesuses.

[00:18:10]>> How how did you get to that?

[00:18:11]>> So So you're saying the flesh is separate to the divine.

[00:18:15]>> Oh, certainly.

[00:18:16]>> Cuz he's one person.

[00:18:17]>> But your spirit is different from your your body.

[00:18:20]>> You can help him if you want.

[00:18:22]>> You can help him.

[00:18:23]>> So Jesus exists in hyp.

[00:18:24]>> But don't take over though. You can help him with that particular point. I need >> exists in hypoatic union. Perfect God, perfect man. Hypothetic union. So the flesh, as you quite rightly said, the flesh dies, the spirit doesn't die.

[00:18:36]Spirit always exists. That's why that's what we believe.

[00:18:39]>> Heaven is a spiritual realm, is it? It's not a place of flesh.

[00:18:42]>> So what do you believe about Jesus? That he is both God and man.

[00:18:45]>> Yeah, I think so. But the Bible would say, >> would you then say Jesus had a God? Cuz he's God himself, right?

[00:18:53]>> There was the father God. It wasn't really Jesus's God.

[00:18:55]>> But Jesus prayed. Jesus is saying, "I'm going to the mountains. I had to pray to my God." So Jesus has a god, >> but he he wasn't saved by that god.

[00:19:03]>> But Jesus has a god. Yeah.

[00:19:05]>> No, he doesn't have a god >> because he's one person. And if Jesus is saying that I'm praying to my god and your god, how can you say he doesn't have a god?

[00:19:15]>> Because he wasn't saved by that god.

[00:19:17]>> It doesn't matter if he was saved by him or not. My question is does he have a god?

[00:19:21]>> Not if he was saved by him. That's a different question.

[00:19:23]>> No, it isn't.

[00:19:24]>> Let's just stick with this. Does he have a god? Jesus.

[00:19:27]>> No, >> he doesn't have a god. What if I show you from the Bible that he's referring to the father as as God?

[00:19:33]>> If it would make you pleased.

[00:19:34]>> No. Do you require it? I'm not just going to search it for the sake of it.

[00:19:37]>> That's true.

[00:19:38]>> No problem.

[00:19:39]>> Do you know of it? Any any person in the trinity? Any one person refer to the other person of the trinity as God. You got Amos 4:11. This is Yahweh speaking the Lord. It says, "I overthrew some of you as when God overthrew Sodom Gomorrah. You was a brand plucked out the burning yet you did not return to me, declares Yahweh." So any one person of the trinity can refer to the trinity as god. So Jesus is a person of the trinity. He refers to the rest of the trinity as god.

[00:20:07]>> So that's in Amos in the old testament.

[00:20:10]So it's quite legitimate for Jesus to refer to the father and the spirit as god. So I pray to my god. I pray to the father and the spirit. Thank you sir.

[00:20:18]>> One obvious one is of course when he was on the cross and he said my god why has thou forsaken me?

[00:20:22]>> That's the obvious one. Yes.

[00:20:24]>> The question was >> does Jesus have a god? Does Jesus >> So if he's saying, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

[00:20:30]>> Pretty obvious.

[00:20:30]>> Fair enough. Fair enough. I agree.

[00:20:31]>> So Jesus has a god. Yeah. Does the father have a god?

[00:20:35]>> I would assume not.

[00:20:36]>> Does the holy spirit have a god?

[00:20:38]>> No.

[00:20:39]>> So they're not all co-equal then. Then the trinity breaks down.

[00:20:42]>> Perhaps what we should do is make a distinction between Jesus as a man and Jesus as spirit and what he came to pursue.

[00:20:50]>> What does that mean?

[00:20:51]>> Maybe maybe >> Jesus as a spirit. Well, like the holy spirit. We're all spir spiritual beings.

[00:20:56]We all have a spirit. Right.

[00:20:58]>> Right. So Jesus was like us, a human like us and a spirit also like us.

[00:21:04]>> Yes.

[00:21:04]>> So then where's the divine aspect?

[00:21:06]>> Well, perhaps it was in the spirit that Jesus >> not perhaps.

[00:21:10]>> I don't I don't have the answers. So it is perhaps.

[00:21:12]>> I'll tell you why that doesn't make sense. Because the more we go into this, the more you're going to realize you cannot accept the trinity without accepting that contradictions are normal. They're fine when it comes to the fundamental nature of God. When it comes to Islam, things are very simple, Josh. Things are very clear. We only believe in one God. God didn't need to come down as a man.

[00:21:33]>> Simple things are always the most complicated.

[00:21:35]>> Give me an example.

[00:21:36]>> No, I don't think I need to.

[00:21:38]>> Well, this a very big claim, John.

[00:21:40]Sorry, Josh. If you're making a claim, I'd like you to give me an example. Just like when I said that Jesus said that he didn't know the hour, you asked me for evidence. I gave you evidence. I didn't respond by saying I don't think you need to know that, Josh. Let's extend that courtesy both ways. Yeah.

[00:21:54]>> Why why are simple things always complicated?

[00:21:57]>> That's because that's a absurd uh absurd notion to >> I suppose if you go by words >> because the whole definition of something simple is that it's not complicated >> to assure well because I think generally >> it's because Josh you have to accept that for trinity to make sense. That's the bottom line. Let's be honest.

[00:22:16]>> Every everything has sin within it. So those things that claim that they are perfect are always >> Did Jesus have sin?

[00:22:22]>> No.

[00:22:22]>> Well, then everything doesn't have sin, does it?

[00:22:24]>> I don't think today has been my day.

[00:22:26]>> The thing is you're seeing it as today not being my day. I don't want you to see it like that, Josh. Just like last time. I just want you to take it as a learning experience.

[00:22:36]I'm not forcing you and cajoling you into, oh no, now you're this. I'm not putting you in a box. I'm just getting you to think broadly. Just like there's an individual over here. He's helping you. He's mentioning certain things.

[00:22:47]It's fine. We can do that. But my point is this. I just want you to think differently. I want you to challenge your notions. Just like I challenge my notions. We come to the park and my da my claim is Islam makes sense. Islam evidentially can back that up.

[00:23:05]Christianity cannot. It's riddled with contradictions. It struggles to get across fundamental things. Jesus himself, we call him a blessing.

[00:23:16]However, in the Bible, he's referred to as a curse. That's right. In Galatians, >> I think there's probably some context needed for that.

[00:23:24]>> Let's let's read the context.

[00:23:26]>> I don't have the context.

[00:23:27]>> No, we've got the whole Bible in front of you.

[00:23:29]>> I'll tell you the verse and you can tell me. So, this is in Galatians 3:13.

[00:23:34]>> You can look it up, sir. We just We can look it up.

[00:23:37]>> Jesus becomes a curse for agree. Am I miss am I giving a contextless thing?

[00:23:42]>> Jesus takes on the curse for us.

[00:23:44]>> So, Jesus is a curse. So he takes into sin.

[00:23:46]>> When God takes on our benefit, it's like when you said about him not knowing the hour.

[00:23:50]>> But I'm not misrepresenting that though, am I?

[00:23:52]>> Jesus isn't a curse. It's he takes on our curse.

[00:23:55]>> He picked So who cursed him?

[00:23:56]>> Well, very much I I I think >> God God tests us and uses us. He He gives us character.

[00:24:03]>> Josh, who cursed Jesus?

[00:24:05]>> No. What do you win by setting up these things?

[00:24:09]>> You're seeing as a win lose. I'm not seeing as a win lose, Josh. I'm saying I'm merely showing you the the differences between how you and I view Jesus through our holy scriptures. I can give you a reference in the Quran. We see Jesus as a blessing. We see Satan as the occursed one. Are you listening Josh?

[00:24:28]>> I am.

[00:24:29]>> Yeah. However, the Bible says that the god of the world, who's the god of the world?

[00:24:34]>> Himself.

[00:24:35]>> No. Satan. Satan is the god of the world. Am I correct? Yes. So, the god of the world is Satan. Jesus became a curse. I'm merely showing you the Christian view of Jesus, the Islamic view of Jesus, and showing that we respect and rever Jesus more than you.

[00:24:53]>> It's not about win or lose, Josh. Don't come with the win or lose. Sorry, >> you don't even serve Jesus.

[00:24:58]>> I'll give you an example. Yeah. When you say we don't serve, Jesus would in at the end of Gospel of John, numerous places, he says be unto you, peace to you. Peace to you. What do Muslims say when we greet each other? Which means peace be unto you. I've never been approached by a Christian in the park that says peace be unto you.

[00:25:19]>> No, but you didn't say peace unto you.

[00:25:21]The words of Jesus.

[00:25:23]>> We take the words of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. Jesus put his head on the ground. Abraham put his head on the ground. Moses put his head on the ground. Muhammad, peace be upon him, put his head on the ground. Muslims put their head on the ground. So >> how did you become a Muslim?

[00:25:41]>> By looking at all the options of the other religions, looking at the evidences that were brought forward. Of course, I was born a Muslim. However, that wasn't enough for me to stay a Muslim. So I had to look being in the UK, a lot of people saying different things. I looked at the evidences. I measured it by philosophical reasoning, rational reasoning, scriptural evidence, historical evidence, etc. And I saw Islam is head and shoulders above the rest. And my conclusion was Islam must be true. And I've been coming to the park hasn't been very long. But logically, rationally, Islam can hold true to itself. Whilst Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism cannot. But coming back to this point, you're saying we don't hold to to Jesus. I'm saying we hold to Jesus more than you. No, >> Jesus like Jesus and the prophets they grew their beards. So we grow our beards as we call it the sunnah, right?

[00:26:38]>> Just one second just has a long beard.

[00:26:40]>> No, I'm giving you a list of things but that's one of the list.

[00:26:43]>> Yeah. What did what did I mention before that >> you said you were telling about your greetings some >> Do you want me to mention in in order of importance?

[00:26:51]>> I'll mention in order. Well, if you're going to get me at one thing in a list, let me start with order of importance.

[00:26:58]Jesus actually says the declaration of faith that the Muslims say in John 17:3 when he says that the only God is the father. The only true God is the father.

[00:27:11]And then he distinguishes himself as someone sent by him. That's our declaration of faith. I testify there's none worthy of worship besides Allah.

[00:27:20]And I testify that Muhammad is a messenger of God. That Isa is a messenger of God. That Moses is a messenger of God. So that's the declaration of faith that mirrors exactly what we say. We say Jesus submitted his will to God. Very clear.

[00:27:35]John 17:3. When it comes to even Jesus's belief, he says, "Look, why do you say that I'm good? The only one good is the father." That's exactly what the prophets would say that they are not the ones that are doing the miracles. The miracles are only being done through the permission of God. Even if you look at the appearance of Jesus, how he conducted himself, all of that is co is reminiscent of Muslims. If Jesus was to come back today, he looks at the Christians. They go church once a week.

[00:28:08]They sing hymns. They're sitting on altars in their suits and their ties.

[00:28:12]They're worshiping Mary. The Catholics, they worship Mary. On Sundays, they actually believe that they eat that the Eucharist is actually the body of Christ and the wine is actually the blood of Christ. Spiritual cannibalism. They say that's Jesus in my tongue. How is that respecting Jesus? I'm saying there's no way. And imagine if someone's got a mosa bread and it drops. Oh, Jesus has dropped. This is something that a Muslim would look at and go, "What is this?"

[00:28:42]And so for someone to come along and say, "No, you don't respect Jesus. We do. Id say Josh, with all due respect, with love and kindness, we >> you're about to say something really disrespectful.

[00:28:53]>> No, no, no. I was looking for a a synonym. Sometimes synonyms don't come.

[00:28:57]From our last discussion to our discussion today, I haven't been uh disrespectful, have I?

[00:29:02]>> No, not particularly.

[00:29:03]>> No, I haven't disrespected Jesus giving him insults and all this. And I don't intend to, neither the Bible. I merely intend to show you and give you the references. You can check them yourself and then you can come to your own informed decision. There's no compulsion in religion, Josh. But I'm merely showing you the dichotomy and the polar opposites of the view of Christianity and Islam. We don't believe that God has to come in the form of Jesus to be hung naked on the cross to be disgraced like that. We say that before he was disgraced like that he was raised and he shall return again and we will follow Jesus when he comes we will follow him we rever his mother Mary in fact there are three chapters in the Quran that are named after Jesus >> so what made you decide Islam was true >> the reasons that I said the fact that it's all of its claims are true that it makes in the Quran that there's no contradictions in the Quran the claims that the Quran makes, how the Quran holds true to the claims of the prophecies that it makes, historical evidence, the philosophical claims it makes that the prophet made, the rational claims, and how it makes sense, it's practical, and how it's in line with what the previous prophets teached and taught as well. So when you bear all of that in mind, Josh, to me and to the masses of people, in fact to there's a reason why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the UK and in the West. Why?

[00:30:34]Because people have become tired of this notion of trinity and being told that God is a man. No, but he's God.

[00:30:42]>> Atheists, not Christians.

[00:30:44]>> Sorry.

[00:30:45]>> People in the West are atheists and not Christians.

[00:30:47]>> No, but Islam is the fastest growing religion here in the West. According to Pew, >> they're converting a atheists.

[00:30:52]>> Sorry. We follow Jesus. He's your circumstances.

[00:30:56]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a very good point. Circumcision. We circumcise. But Josh, you're not circumcised. I'm guess I'm guessing.

[00:31:02]>> No.

[00:31:03]>> You follow Jesus.

[00:31:04]>> The Bible. When it comes to the Bible.

[00:31:06]>> I'm going to ask one more.

[00:31:07]>> Don't worry. I'm not asking to check.

[00:31:08]>> Tell me.

[00:31:09]>> Just ask you to tell me. I'll take your word for it.

[00:31:12]>> What What do you think God is? That's my last question.

[00:31:14]>> So God is the one, the independent, does not beget. No, he's a begotten. And there's none like him. That's who we believe God is. How does God save you?

[00:31:24]>> God saves us through his mercy. We do deeds ourselves, but ultimately it's not our deeds that help us, Josh. It's the mercy of God.

[00:31:33]>> And I know this is you. You guys believe different. You believe that Islam, no, it's about deeds. No, it's the mercy of God. But Christianity claims that, oh, God loves us and that no, God dying on the cross is not a mercy. It's not love.

[00:31:47]That's a payment. Go in your religion.

[00:31:49]You don't believe that you can be forgiven without blood.

[00:31:52]>> You do the kitten through Christ.

[00:31:54]>> You don't.

[00:31:55]>> It's the sacrifice of Jesus is the blood.

[00:31:57]>> That's the most integral part of your religion. And just like Paul said, he said that if you don't believe in the crucifixion, all your preaching is in vain. That's the fundamental core principle of your faith. Without that, your faith crumbles. So you have to So I'm not saying I've crumbled it for you, but I'm just saying that it's very important and is payment by blood.

[00:32:18]Without blood, it's problematic.

[00:32:21]>> We're saying you can be forgiven without blood.

[00:32:23]>> Will you do me a favor and talk to this man next?

[00:32:25]>> Can do. No problem if he wants to. I can speak to you next time, Josh.