Sames’ "matrix pharmacology" marks a necessary departure from reductionist drug design, acknowledging that complex brain disorders require a systemic rather than a surgical approach. It is a bold fusion of rigorous chemistry and visionary insight that could redefine our understanding of addiction and neural recovery.
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Meet The Greatest Ibogaine Psychedelic Scientist You’ve Never Heard Of
Added:One of my major goals was to probe the the theory with eyeball game to take 10 milligs per kilogram. So that's a flat dose. It's a pretty big dose and I had 36 hours visionary experience. And all of a sudden that sphere gets focused.
Threedimensional grid appears and a full 3D molecular structure of ibugget appears. Oh my god, >> that's the most insane thing I've ever heard.
>> It rotates and I look at it and I'm like, "Yep, you got it correctly." And I was I'm telling you, I was doing high five with I was like, "You, >> oh my god." Dalabore Samish is a psychedelic chemist who's spent decades editing nature's most insane psychoactive compounds ibeane trying to keep the medicine and delete the risk. He created a version of ibeane that appears to erase heroin addiction in a single dose without the heartstoppping danger. After 20 years studying this truly bizarre drug, he hit a roadblock. finally took the leap, flew to Mexico, and tried Iberane for himself. This experience shattered his reality of the world, and he's still testing ideas in the science lab that I told him during the psychedelic experience. Get ready for truly one of the most remarkable trip reports I have ever heard. If you don't yet fully have an appreciation for how weird Ibe, then listen to this full episode. You will not regret it. One of the hallmarks of Ian experience is reorienting your relationships of your relationship to your social group and to your society and to potentially to your whole planet.
A lot of people leave like I want to fix my relationships. I finally fell asleep.
It kept going in my dreams and in my lucid dreaming. It was I showed me so many different forms of consciousness.
The one that was unexpected or unplanned was that you know four maybe five days a week I would have a drink with dinner and I just lost interest in in in alcohol. It's so bizarre. It it seems to be almost an insult to call Ian a drug because it's so complex and so sophisticated.
Dalabore Samish, for the listener at home who might not be familiar with you or your scientific work, what's the most important context for them to understand?
>> Hello, great to meet you. Um, yes, so I'm a scientist. I'm a chemist, organic chemist, medicinal chemist, neuropharmacologist, scientist, interested in a lot of different things. And um um through chemistry I've been always interested in understanding how this universe works at particular on the molecular level that I've discovered this this you know passion um early on and maybe even before high school. So this this lens of seeing things on a molecular level and understanding it. So, I come in from the chemistry um um background and I've always been interested in the big questions, right? what how does the brain work and how what's what about the consciousness and the brain and and the diseases and the cures and uh so I've been interested in philosophy and all these things and so coming bringing chemistry and neuroscience um together in my work is really fantastic because it's it's like you know doing all my hobbies and work at the same time so I come from the molecular end, but this this interest in this interface between neuroscience and and uh development of therapeutics and on a molecular level, that's that's how I that's how it all works for me.
>> Very cool. I'm excited to really dive into the molecular chemistry today and more so than in in in in other episodes just because you are such an expert in these things and I really want to pick your brain on a bunch of stuff. But I'm curious, how did you first get interested in Ibeane? This has been a fascination of mine now for a few months at least. This is a weird weird drug and you are an expert in it. Um, so I'm just curious how did you how did you get interested in Ibegan first?
>> Well, I'll try to make it brief.
It it comes it I discovered I gain uh or I joke sometimes that it found me. Um, through several lenses. So I have been interested in the idea of can we treat in uh various disorders of the nervous system, mental health disorders, neurological disorders and you know at that time when I was starting my own lab here in New York at Columbia University I that was the time when the longheld dogma that adult brain cannot change or cannot cannot heal itself was crumbling. So that was the time this was a dogma that really dates back to Rammonica how the the Spanish father of neuroscience right who discovered through chemistry too through staining brain tissue with uh basically using solutions from used to develop photographs. So there's an interesting link between photography and neuroscience. So these silver salts and mercury salts uh were used to make photographs and sooner or later you would have somebody would have the idea well let's take a piece of brain and dip it into a silver solution and that with having a microscope another important hardware piece that chemistry with the hardware piece revealed the cellular structure of the brain right all the beautiful details of the cells looking like roots and plants and all the glorious uh uh morphology of cells emerged and in this early studies in Spain he found having this new technique that that adult brain would not after injury would not heal or would not recover.
So and he was such a you know towering figure.
He was a giant in the field. He right he everybody would just take it and believe it. And then for it took hundred years to really overturn this. And so and it took many different experiments from different fields and different angles.
Um and so at that time late 1990s early 2000s it was really you know in the literature also in the popular scientific literature that this clearly is not true entirely that adult brain can adopt and can change and can can heal and all this. So the neuroplasticity idea was was emerging.
So that was very exciting and very hopeful uh that okay this is great. So adult brain can change and can recover.
And so I was thinking, can we do that pharmacologically? Can we do it with molecules? Can we do it with with uh pharmacological agents?
>> It is crazy to me that that's such a new idea. Sorry to like it's it's it's such a wild thing because my entire life, right, that was sort of accepted that the brain is constantly rewiring itself.
It's this incredible dynamic system. I went through college not knowing anything else or went through all of my education without knowing any other idea. So it's just hilarious to me that this this idea is like a few decades old. Like that's kind of wild.
>> That is that that's great that you point it out because I teach this in my classes too is how powerful the dogmas are.
>> Yes. So we right we create these paradigms and they're useful because they propel and and and and guide us in discovering new things but then they also limit us and they're very powerful and that's yeah before that it was the the silo was the the mindset was no adult once the adult brain is set it's set. So, so that was overturning. It was very hope helpful and there were all these popular books coming out you know and and um getting outside you know outside of the scientific community to the community in general to the society. So that was great. That was very very important. And another big idea was coming around at that time. So you know about 20 years a little more than 20 years ago was that synapses right these special formations these connections between between cells where most of communication takes place in the brain in the peripheral nervous system.
that synapses are really the common denominators of most if not all disorders of the nervous system. So that obviously includes neurodeenerative disorders that are defined by progressive degeneration or loss of function and then the loss of cells themselves.
But then also at that time you know there were there was data coming out that even in depression there's synaptic distrophe or loss of synapses in the cortex in depressed people in human brains. So it was like oh aha so this this is not just for neurology and neurodeenerative disorders like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease but this also is probably true for mental health disorder. Then there other data was coming out that in autism there is synaptic pruning deficit. So the opposite you form a lot of synapses that need to be pruned and if you cannot prune them that may be one of the one of the causes of autism. So then it was becoming clear that synapses are the critical functional atom of the brain and that most disorders are driven or correlate with function you know dysfunction of synapses or or loss of synapses. So then another idea uh big idea in the lab in my lab was what could we restore synaptic function?
Could we focus on synapses with uh with important with some molecules? And then the third idea was well why do we think my lab that we can develop drug-breaking therapeutics in the area of nervous system disorders where and mental health particularly where Fizer and Johnson and Johnson all these big companies have failed for decades and when you look at the history of discovery of antiscychotics anti-depressants it's basically all serendipitous.
So you know the first you know monamine oxidase inhibitors they were discovered as through anti-tuberculosis drugs uh you know antid-depressence tricyclic and then later SSRI and it's all comes back to serendipitous discoveries in clinical experimentation. So the idea of that that modern paradigm the modern paradigm being we will identify a gene and then that gene encodes a protein and we will find a molecule that modulates that protein to restore whatever uh the dysfunction of the gene and then if that works then you go to cells and when it's accessible in isolated cultured cells you go to animals. You have an animal model of the disease, then you do it in animals and then that works. Then you go to humans and test it and that's how we develop modern medicine. So this paradigm which sounds great and right and very scientific that basically has failed over and over in mental health therapeutics for decades. There was no true innovation.
>> So we were thinking >> simple. Sorry if only it were so simple.
If if only it was so straightforward.
Exactly. And then you we we you discover that each that each transition right when you go up in complexity from protein to a cell, from cell to an organism, living organism, from an animal to a human clinical trials that each in that each step you will lose many different molecules that look look promising.
So So we thought we thought well this is not going to work. Uh so let's go backwards and that today we refer to it as reverse translation or I refer to it as the classical paradigm. You look at plants and natural substances that already have some profound clinical effect. This is how right humanity that's how we've discovered medicines classically in this reverse paradigm that you actually in nature gives you a molecule a substance that already has effects in humans. So we were thinking well let's do that. Let's go back let's go back to the future and let's look for molecules in the natural realm or otherwise that would have ability to restore synaptic function and that so those are the three major lenses and then of course let's find something that we don't know the mechanism so we can discover new science. So that were the kind of three major lenses. I found out something pretty interesting recently. One of my big goals has been to build muscle over the last few months. I'm not even that interested in all of the well-known health benefits. I'm genuinely just curious about what it is like to be jacked. Like, what would the human experience of being Evan, being me, be jacked? So, I've been training big. I've been eating well and I've been hitting the gym consistently and I have been growing muscle but not really at the rate that I would like. The thing that I discovered was that I wasn't eating remotely enough protein for my body weight and my activity levels. I would need roughly 200 g of protein per day at the higher end to be ensure that I'm making the most gains that I can. Not everyone needs that. This is for me and my standard levels of activity. But I realized that I was only eating 70 g of protein. So I wasn't just off by like a little bit. I was off by a factor of three. When I learned this, it kind of blew me away. And the only reason I discovered this was cuz I started tracking my nutrition using this app called Macroactor. Macroofactor was developed by a science-based YouTuber called Jeff Nippard, who I've personally followed and been a huge fan of for a really long time because of how science-based and researchoriented he is. The feature that I love the most is that it makes nutrition tracking not feel like a chore. You just take a picture of your food. I usually voice record a few things about the ingredients and it gives you a really good macronutrient breakdown of what you're consuming. Proteins, carbs, fat, calories, all the different nutrients you need to be aware of. So importantly, this is not just for protein. It matches you exactly with what your goals are on a nutritional basis. Studies show that a staggering 95% of Americans are deficient in vitamin D and almost half are deficient in calcium, magnesium, and vitamin C. Most people are walking around and they just have no idea that these gaps exist. Every week, the macroactor coach checks in with you to ensure you are hitting your goals, to see what progress you're making, and then it adjusts that macronutrient breakdown based on your own targets. So, it meets you exactly where you are.
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>> And through this framework, one day I was picked up a journal and there was, you know, a beautiful photograph of an indigenous person right in Africa and painted face.
and Ian uh in the Ibugan ceremony and there the article discussed the results of Deborah Mash in the Caribbean treating volunteers with dependence and opioids and cocaine and you know seeing these amazing results and of course Howard lots of and the discovery in New York City right serendipitous discovery again.
>> Yeah speak next week. Oh, excellent.
Excellent.
>> Yeah.
>> And excellent. So, and then this paper 2005, there was a scientific paper that came out that showed that in rats, when you treat them with iberan, drinking rats, it was a drinking rats, alcohol drinking rats, it's a model of alcohol use disorder that Ian induces in the brain. this particular neurotrphic factor which is abbreviated GDNF and that stands for glyc cell derived neurotrophic factor and that turns out to be a natural endogenous protein molecule that's critical for uh development of nervous system particularly dopamineergic system dopamine neurons and then maintenance of of uh dopamine neurons in adulthood So that was um to me first I was thinking this is not possible when you have these people actively using and heavily dependent on opioids and cocaine turns out and later of course alcohol and other substances that within few hours that's what these reports were telling within a few hours the dependence is gone basically it's gone completely insane, isn't it?
>> Completely wild.
>> Insane. And Deborah Mash's results then were so important because she published it in the scientific literature. Before that, we were just depending on all these anecdotes. Oh, you heard about this? Oh, you heard about this clinic.
And so for a young scientist like myself and my lab, that was really critical that they published and others too published it. So there was actual body of a small but body of literatur. So we thought, well, there you have it.
And there's a molecular hypothesis why these effects might not only be rapid but why they may last long because this neurotrphic factor is induced and it may induce this autoc catalytic cycle. So it kind of propagates itself and so there was this hypothesis. So, it was a it was it was a moment when it was it was one of those aha moments when I read this and the lights went on and I you know goosebump and I was like oh my this is this is it. And then when you think it through for a chemist this was a perfect perfect project. The molecule is well to me molecular aesthetics is very beautiful. So we could talk about that but it's complex.
>> It's complex enough. So it's interesting for chemists. It's not boring, right?
It's not a very simple molecule. There are challenges and how to make it together. And you know we're chemists.
We play Legos, right? We play Lego games with you know with the molecules. So we put them together and we change them and all. So that was that. It has this >> I'll put it on the screen by the way. So if you speak of any groups I'll put up diagrams on the screen. So feel free to use functional groups, go into the the organic chemistry, whatever you want, and then I can put up diagrams to kind of talk through as as you go.
>> Super. So it's complex. It's interesting chemically. It has this, you know, purported remarkable effect.
And there's a cardio issue which also was already known in the time, you know, 20 25 years ago. So there were things to fix. It's perfect.
>> It's like, okay, let's go after it. So that was that was really how it all started and very cool. I was very surprised that it was very difficult to find people to work on it, you know, students or postocs. It was baffling to me why I just why would you not want to work on something so so exciting? It was just again talking about paradigms. I do not know why people would not want to work on the psychedelics. It was a totally different time. It was too weird. It was too underground, you know, and I was probably terrible at pitching the idea. So, >> awesome story. Really cool. I'm I'm really keen to get into all of the dense chemistry, but an area I'm really interested in with psychedelics and drugs in general is phenomenology is experience. And something that I really respect about you when I was reading about this was that you went and felt the need to try I began yourself. So I almost I wanted to start with your experience and then we can build the chemistry out of it. So if you would I'm fascinated by this and again I've spoken to so many researchers of psychedelics who have spent decades you know sticking people in MRIs and giving them LSD that have never tried the substances themselves and I understand but I it also blows me away ju simply from the perspective of curiosity >> how can you not be so much more curious in the experience there's one aspect of like it actually helping you with your work and understanding the substance and understanding the experience you're giving to people somewhat, but just simply on a curiosity basis, why is it that we're not more interested in experience? So, I'm I I I tip my hat to you. I think it's amazing that you went and tried it. Talk about that experience. What led up to it? Why did you want to try it yourself? Just dive into that. Awesome. Awesome. Yes. So again I if I would distill down what is that you know that fire that I have that that fascination that interest it is one of the things is that relationship between the molecular structure and all the way the effect on the brain the psychology the the experiential subjective effects like the spirituality the these profound own experiences, these extreme experiences. How is that how does how does that molecule encode that information? Yeah.
>> Right. So I really see molecules as information codes like this I gain is so packed so packed evolution or creator whatever you explanatory frameworks are right packed with information and that is unlocked when it interfaces with with our living system. So and again as scientists we built so many different layers in between molecular and subjective the molecular cellular right or organels and organs and physiology and all this but in practice you know when you swallow a pill of this it within few minutes it's changing your complete complete world >> yes >> so that is just fascinating >> and so I want to as understand as much as as possible. And yeah, scientists, you know, scientists are trained and they grow up in, you know, in this scientific paradigm where you want to be objective and scientific enterprise spend centuries trying to separate subjectivity so that we have objective experiments and measurements and all this. And so what's so interesting and useful about psychedelics that they're really forcing us to go full circle back >> yes >> to this subjectivity and bring the scientific method and stretch the scientific method and grow it and challenge it with this very difficult right um how do you study how do you subjective experiences and it turns out that these subjective experiences are very important there are meaning making Um when I speak with my friends who are psychotherapists and psychiatrists, they very often say those who work with severe trauma they say that the spiritual domain is in the severe cases is the most effective domain where treatment and healing can occur.
>> Right?
>> So so it's not just pure philosophy, right? It is of practical value and of meaning and so it's extremely important.
So, so I am very interested in that and studying applying the scientific method to the subject of experience and that's we we're doing this in our lab too. We're collecting reports and um >> very cool. I'd love to go to that later.
>> Hundreds of hundreds of reports trying to see what are the unique features, what are the common features and all that.
>> Oh, extremely cool.
>> So, I've been always interested in that.
Um and but I had not really come around doing ibo gain one. I was concerned about the cardiac effect cardiac potential cardiac side effects. Um things were really busy and at the 20 years ago it was pretty wild out there.
So you know with the exception of some of the clinics like Deborah Mashes there were a lot of different providers who were you know to put it mildly questionable and many of them were this is also very common in the aban field that you would have a person who would be basically on the brink of death right whether it was addiction or suicidality or whatever it is and they would take ibain somewhere and it would save their lives And in that experience, they would also have this this important message like I I cannot just have it for myself. I have to provide it for others, >> right?
>> And so with good intentions, people who were not experts at all, they would set up their own little shop, you know, on the beach somewhere. And and >> and it was legal to do that 20 years ago or sort of gray area frowned upon or just not legal at all?
illegal in the United States and gray area in Mexico and Costa Rica and all that. Yeah.
>> And that's I think that some of the tragic, you know, um deaths occurred in this kind of context. The people just didn't know and then they would treat people and they would go away and they would be alone for a few hours and that, you know, so there are all these all these things that one has to monitor.
So, so it just seemed too, you know, I it didn't seem safe, >> right? So and that idea I did cultivate a little bit of that objectivity maybe I need to uh but then more we get involved with ibo gain and studying it and ebogga alkaloids and studying it and going deeper and collecting reports it was just it's just really is testing the limits right of like can we well and that's with students like we're on the edge here is this snake oil and just stories that people exaggerate or is this a true molecular technology breakthrough and hearing reports there just more coming right at at that time was mostly addiction but then as you know what happened there and then people go treat addictions but there were you know there was uh veterans with other conditions right so drinking was just part of this complex cluster of PTSD and TBI and then you know those to to two special operation forces veterans. That was a big news in this kind of eyeball gain small ION world and PTSD. Now we have TBI and then you know this I call the trail of discovery these stories now Parkinson disease you know you keep hearing about these individuals or two people that that really had a remarkable response.
So and then the subjective reports equally fascinating. Yes. And then just one cannot ignore that. So we just kept going. And when we get to the mechanism part, we had stops and starts because we realized that Iberin doesn't fit into classical pharmacological categories. So we would there were times we were just I don't know how to do that. You know how do you study something that just doesn't really act like other drugs. So we we'll get to that get to that point.
>> Yeah.
>> So then it was just time. It was time to try it for me and um so the time was right. Uh I also got to know this the the owners and the found founders of this clinic. So I I I did it at Beyond which is a a Iain clinic in in Mexico.
And so the time was right to really do it. And sorry for taking such a long time to explain this but but the time was right because couple years ago we I believe we made a conceptual breakthrough. So quickly sum up ibog just didn't fit. it doesn't seem to engage the GPCR receptors, the G-proin coupled receptors that are in the nervous system to detect neurotransmitters. Right? So the basic framework of neurochemistry is that we have endogenous mediators and neurotransmitters. There are molecules that are released by the nerve endings and by the cells which itself was a revolutionary idea 100 years ago.
And these recep these neurotransmitters these molecules are detected by these spec specific receptors and that's the basic framework and even other psychedelics like LSD or DMT they essentially work through engaging that same framework that are binding and turning on these serotonin for example serotonin receptors largely seems to be not doing that.
So when we looked at you know 50 plus GPCRs these these receptors this screen it just came back negative all negative no no engagement so that we're thinking what's going on is it snake oil is the snake oil um and another classical paradigm in pharmarmacology is that the drugs neurotransmitters themselves and then the drugs are very potent. So selectivity and potency are the two hallmarks of the classical pharmacological paradigm and that guides discovery and development of new therapeutics as well. You want to have a molecule that's very potent. That means that it engages the receptor at very low concentrations which may translate to very low dose and it's selective. So it engages one receptor or a few. And there's a reason for this kind of molecular precision approach. Biology is so complex. So you want to have uh precise interventions in this larger comp complex information processing system.
>> Yes. But so you potency and selectivity that's what we teach and that's what for decades right the industry is following that paradigm and LSD is a good example that it's very potent right it's one of the most potent substances there and engages these receptors even though it engages several not just one seems just not following that it doesn't really with some exceptions it doesn't really engage these receptors s very much uh it's it's rather engaging the signaling pathways that these receptors are triggering or it's modulating the distribution of neurotransmitters.
>> So it's almost orthogonal to this endogenous system. So it's tweaking that system.
>> So it's it's not selective in this sense and it's not potent at all. It's actually quite weak. The interactions are very weak. So the opposite to what what we normally do, >> right?
>> All of these are paradoxical findings that kind of put the pharmarmacology textbook under a lens like how does this work? How does this how does this jive with the experience with the reports exactly? And the paradox is the good word because that's what we're finding.
So just in a in a summary is it looks like that I gain is engaging the living system and multiple many different interactions that are weak in nature. So it's I visualize it as kind of brushing brushing through and we can get into details of that but we named that so it's a it's a new paradigm so it needs a new term so we made it we named it IOA matrix pharmarmacology to capture that that idea that it's going through the entire living matrix. So that happened and that was we published a paper. We could talk about it too. Um in the specific context of serotonin neurotransmission and but that that what we are showing in this paper is this specific serotonin synapse and how it interacts with multiple players in the syninnapse.
And the theory the the way I think about it that this is just a small piece of a larger interaction you know in a space of interactions that I believe is >> and hence the matrix and then as a scientist right we accumulate data we interpret the data we have hypothesis but of course we imagine too imagination and intuition is part of it and So you right you're kind of marching through these different parts and then we get into imagine and then this intui I had this very strong strong intuition. It's like oh my god this is just a tiny little window. We just peeled a little window and that we're seeing the complexity but this is not the whole thing. There's >> I didn't realize that was the matrix.
That just clicked for me there because I read matrix pharmarmacology so much and I kind of just read that as um you know like linear algebra matrices or something. I did but I I didn't cop the movie reference like there's so much more here. There's another world here going on that that we that we can't perceive that we don't see. We don't have access to. Very cool. I like the naming a lot more now. that that's the theory and I need to explain it better but it's step by step right at I I also want to back it up a little bit but but this this is the the now intuition space where we're going from data interpretation extrapolation and now intuition so the intuition is and hence the theory right so that's a theory that guides us that this is this is a completely different technology and that's a reason why I call it molecular technology more and more not a drug. It seems to be almost uh an insult to call ION a drug because >> it's so complex and so sophisticated.
So, so if so that's the theory that's the matrix theory >> very >> and then the question is okay how are we going to study this this complexity and again for some viewers who are who are who don't uh study science or don't do science you know we we I experiment with these analogies so I have this analogy of a traffic jam in Manhattan and so you imagine the island of Manhattan and the grid of streets and traffic happens every day. And so imagine that you or the molecule is tasked with the with the goal of relieving that traffic, right? The analogy of in our world. So the classical paradigm, classical pharmacology paradigm would teach us to look for the hub, look for the busiest, most congested hub and relieve traffic there by for example opening new lanes, opening streets and if you do that then that should propagate and ripple through the whole grid, the whole island and relieve the traffic.
So right you want you have precision you want to go to a specific hub and relieve that. So you can think about most drugs including psilocybin or DMT probably work like that. I game doesn't do that.
I game you can imagine comes in and tweaks throughout the grid of streets throughout the system of streets. Gentle it is. It's certainly focusing on the hub, but it's doing multiple sites at the hub, but it's also modulating streets that are miles away.
>> Some some sort of a global systems like systems uh uh catalyst.
>> Yes. And so if this is if this is directionally correct that means that compounds somehow have to and the right that would be the intervention very complex intervention and if the output is coherent relieving of traffic removing dependence of opioids that means that the eboga compounds somehow read the entire system.
M >> if you if you're manipulating throughout the system and the output is coherent that means that it knows right it has to know the entire system to be able to >> interesting >> manipulate. So that's an interesting logical uh kind of a use of logic that there must be some sort of a molecular intelligence and then some sort of holistic bird's eyee view of what's going on >> leaping into over into subjective experiences. This is what people very often describe is this sensation I'm being scanned.
Some, you know, something is scanning me. There's a presence of something that's scanning me and then reorganization starts. And people have visuals and various other perceptions to have that have that um experience. Some people have described seeing their cell phone even though their cell phone is away in a completely different room. So they have a simulation of their cell phone and their cell phone is showing them it's basically scanning. They're being, you know, they're being scanned that the little wheel is spinning.
Bizarre, isn't it?
>> Yeah. Very, very bizarre. So, but that's the model. That's the theory that it is a systems molecular technology that somehow it reads through and then manipulates at multiple junctions at the same time or at a very specific uh temporal sequence. So, so through our scientific work running into the wall many times realizing this is not a classical pharmacology situation.
This is what we come up with as as a new theory. It's it's wild. It's intellectually very challenging and it's very exciting.
>> Yes.
>> And then there are all these practical question. Well, how do you do drug discovery with such a complex system?
Because one of the goals that we focused on is can we generate molecules inspired by ibugane that mitigate the cardiac risk and other risks but maintain as much of the matrix pharmacology as possible. That's one of our major goals >> and we can talk about why we want to do that.
>> Okay. So how do you then do that? That's complicated. How do you then every time every time we change little bit piece of the molecule there are surprises and so that's the challenge and the the excitement about how to actually do this work. I want to tell you really quick about the one item that I have incorporated into my life over the past 2 years and it is a genuine gamecher and that is the Manta sleep mask. People radically underestimate how much impact even a small amount of light in your sleeping environment has on your sleep.
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Back to the episode. But at the same time, you asked about subjective experience.
>> And there's this okay, what is the next experiment?
So, let's assume let's just assume that the matrix theory is directionally correct.
If that's true, that means that we have on our hands something completely novel that we have not seen before. novel molecular technology then and this technology appears to be so far clinical signals right we don't have conclusive clinical trials that's coming but so far what we have this anecdotal observational evidence which is yes it's observational but it is is mounting what we have is that the clinical signal is also remarkable and unprecedented so we have this unique mechanism that we don't understand. That would be my answer right. How does it work? I have no idea. Well, I have an idea. I have a theory, but we really don't know.
>> Yeah.
>> And it's doing all these things.
So then I would argue, okay, we have this molecular advanced technology, then we need a project on the scale of human genome project.
I interest you to decode how it really works and more. We can discuss that. So that's one experiment which will be very expensive.
We will need very heavy computational component.
Why? I mean fashionable at the moment.
Right. Iberane's getting money. I is getting grant funding. I got the largest government psychedelic grant in history.
Is that right? Recently. I don't know how recently.
Um >> well the the the Texas initiative grant if that's what you it's a 50 million >> I believe that's the largest I I guess it's not a classical psychedelic but the the headline that that I read and I'm recalling now that you know it said largest psychedelic grant and people will have an issue with it maybe not being a psychedelic but ridiculously large good size money for for this kind of funding. So Ibegan is is is it's in fashion.
>> It's it's after decades of complete neglect and being a curiosity. That's a fascinating flip too, you know, in the societal terms. So yes, one experiment is to build this major research effort that should be national international because of the complexity and the potential but that's expensive. They will take time and that's really my mission of doing that. The other experiment is well let's then push the limits of the science and bring in the the classical mystic mystical approaches right so this experience subjective experience let's take the scientist the Iberan scientist will take I ask I gain how it works love it love it sign me up I'm ready to ask a tree all the secrets of the universe So that was the experiment that I have undertaken.
>> I'm so curious for you to tell me more details about this.
>> Study again for 20 plus years and the time has come and so I did it.
Uh it was I really decided to do it in a responsible way. I went to beyond clinic. Uh it's a place where modern medicine meets ibo. So it's really built around I gain I feel very safe you know emergency doctor ER doctors and nurses are there so it's very safe environment and coaching and all this and preparations and safety so so so that was great and and I went into it and I followed their protocol with preparation and all that so I wanted to experience it as as a client as a patient And of course, you know, I would I met all these other people who would go there with very severe conditions.
And that was that was part of the experience which was so amazing to really face to face to be with these people to have breakfast, lunch, dinner with them, right? All day >> and you stay at least a week. And and that's what that's what those reports that we've been collecting. I saw them there in in flesh and and and real people, you know, the veterans with suicidality and TBI and love drinking their lives away and um all sorts of trauma. There was a cohort of athletes which was fascinating. So you know rugby rugby player from UK and boxers and you know people with TBI that they acquired through their through their athletic careers and all these different kinds of conditions and and really um people at the end of the the rope and hope right and so see that and be being with them and then seeing the transformation within a few days was was really overwhelming.
And so for me, I had certain goals uh along, you know, some healing that I needed to do as well. But one of my major goals was to to probe the the theory with ibo gain.
And the experience was uh I took 10 milligrams per kilogram. So that's a flood dose. It's a pretty big dose. Um, and I had 36 hours more than 36 hours. 36 hours of visionary experience.
>> It was crazy.
>> Do you sleep? You're sleeping in the like you are sleeping. No, 36 hours straight.
>> Can't sleep.
>> And you would think 36 hours it must be terrible. It must be It was not boring at all. It was just >> boring is not the word I was going to use. There's no of all of the vocab that he's just bored or the bottom >> boring you insane chaotic just bizarre. Not boring.
>> Yeah. Right. That's true. That's true.
So it was 36 hours. I say plus because when I finally fell asleep, it kept going in my dreams and in my lucid dreaming. It was I showed me so many different forms of consciousness. It's it's incredible.
And uh but there were these chapters >> there these chapters that would arrive.
So not everyone has visual simulations or hallucinations. It's very different.
It it is more varied than LSD or psilocybin.
And some people are very disappointed that they take a large dose and there's very little if any visual or auditory in all this. Some people have highly sophisticated visual uh I call them simulations or other type of experiences. For me it was very visual and auditory. It it was I felt like I was welcomed and it was to me it was a scientific pilgrimage to be to be in the right to be with Ibukane.
So it was very emotional. Uh it was very exciting. And then from the very >> 20 years, right? Like you're you're you're studying for 20 years and you're finally experiencing what you've dedicated two decades to. It's it's it's insane. That's >> it was it was an incredible moment. And then as it as the come as the effect is coming on, I felt that I was being welcomed and this is it's almost felt like we'll finally met.
>> Well, you earned this, right? He's definitely earned it. If anyone has ever earned an experience, that's it. Like earned it. Now, let me show you what I can do.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It was It really was showing the visual and auditory and it, you know, little trick before it got serious. It showed me all these tricks like um it create a second voice, my voice. It would be me, but it would be talking faster and it would be cracking jokes and it was just quipping. It was just and it was I was like, "That's me. That's not me. I'm not that funny." And it was just And at the same times there are visual.
It's so the humor, right? People talk about the the humor. It's it's really interesting. when I was getting all serious and almost religious, it would just crack these jokes that were right on the edge of political incorrectness, you know, and pushing the limits.
>> You don't have to be that serious, you know.
>> That's amazing. That's so interesting.
Everything about this is so interesting to me.
>> Yeah. And then I started seeing things through the mask and then I took off the mask and it didn't matter this. So my consciousness was perfectly preserved. I could ask questions. I could talk to a nurse but at the same time there are these proceedings you know these visual visual simulations and then auditory and then there's this kind of you know non-verbal communication and and then the chapters would arrive these fully formed chapters that would theme a certain theme and there are certain visual aesthetics to it and they would arrive and then amazing and then it would stop there's a little break and then another chapter would come you know different aesthetics and any major questions and intentions I had it would answer it would you would it would be so clear to me that that was it was communicating and giving me answers.
>> Wow. So there was this chapter on first it was almost as and I felt the presence of ibogga of a you know entity by me and first chapter was treatment.
Okay I had this you know particular form of pain. So I was you know I was asking about whether what we could do with that and it was just first chapter treatment.
So that was fully visually showing the procedures and this is what we see this is seeing. We see this in reports that people describe various everybody has their own visual representation that one soldier that I met at the clinic serere TBI uh suicidality he was basically just planning how to die. He took Iugett and he saw these little creatures like changing the plumbing like these little tubes were being pulled off and plucked in. And then later on he saw textbook of biology and he saw picture of synapses like that that that was it. They were just fixing. So there were gosh various visual representations at what it's doing. I so you feel like you're being scanned and then >> wow >> then the diagnosis comes and then the treatment starts and there's this fully holographic representation of the treatment.
>> Wow. my case there are these timeless futuristic uh equipment kind of injection devices and things that are coming and just you know the procedure was it was it was wild and I completely submitted I just went okay I'm I'm going I'm going with what needs to be done do it and then the next chapter came which was about I realized ized several hours each chapter >> and I realized that this chapter was about design and it it showed me this massive arc of human creation and creativity and how do we create? How do we design?
And it showed me these ancient objects, artifacts. Showed me wasteful design of, you know, conveyor belts with garbage and plastic.
Then it showed me these plan these futuristic like timeless devices that are always planned and some novel materials. there all these novel beautiful materials that are compatible with the plants that are rooted in plants and just and then I realized oh this is about design creativity and it's like yeah we're designing molecules that are from a plant and we're and it was it was fascinating it was showing me objects as wellmade objects that I recognized somewhere completely futuristic I had no idea what's the function of the object but it Beautiful.
Fantastic.
>> It's just so It's just so bonkers what's inside our brain. I'm I'm kind of assuming your metaphysics and ontology a little bit here by assuming that this stuff is all inside your brain. Correct me if that assumption is wrong cuz I speak to a lot of people who who would say that that's not in your brain. But it is just wild that these sort of future technologies and like unfathomably poetic descriptions of like human creativity in this epic grandiose way >> that just sort of sits dormant in our brain and biology and then you take as you say a molecular technology and it just all comes out. I mean you're blowing me away here. Please keep going.
This is this is so deeply fascinating.
It is fascinating. And so there are these and then there these screen it looks like a screen like a like a TV screen but again these you know materials you've never seen and there are plans inside right so there's always this motif this this idea of you know plan-based plan inspired plan plan plan design. It it was incredible and then it went into a very spiritual chapter and and um that was also fascinating because I had the questions about so what's the origins and what's the underlying code and all this so it was it was answering so so it was fascinating hours on and and absolutely you know entertaining and and I would ask other questions that are globally relevant or personally relevant and there's always this little bit of a delay and all of a sudden >> the answer or me knows and then you're like yeah this is very interactive.
>> Are you thinking are youing these questions? Are you saying them out loud when they return to you? Is it your voice?
>> No, I usually come Yeah, you can ask verbally. You can ask in your thoughts.
Um, also the coaches encourage people to write them down before so you actually have intentions and questions. I had my notebook, right? It was so that was one thing that you constantly have to decide, do I take a break and write it down because I have to or I don't want to interrupt. So, you know, I would just write things down and then go right back in. And um, so it was incredible. And then I was asking after all this, this is now 12 hours and I was asking well could we now probe the theory and could we uh could we even draw molecules and but and that wouldn't come you know so I I tried to conjure conjure it into the into the visual field and but it wouldn't it wouldn't happen. So I was I was already so grateful for what was given to me and what the experience was. So I was like that's fine. And after 12 hours my heart was fine. They check it. All right. It's monitoring all this. So they sent me to this diff this was basically an ER room full right monitoring nurses you know IV line everything ready for safety but a very nice nice yeah room very comfortable you know it didn't feel like a kind of a sterile hospital at all.
That was my first my first thought there was like I don't want that. I I don't want to get prodded with needles. I'm trying to ask where the how the pyramids were made. Just leave me leave me al leave me alone over here. I'm trying to figure out where the you know last pal last Atlantis is.
>> Right. I I felt like I'm in a spaceship.
I really I would I would describe it as a spaceship.
>> So I embraced it that way and it just equipment was fine. Plus, as a scientist, I'm just, you know, it's just the geeky part. You know, >> the more you can gain, you know, from the experiment, the better.
>> So, anyway, my my heart was fine. Back back to basil, right? The QT prolongation is is of course there and it's being monitored. So, then they would send me to this waiting room where there's still a nurse on call, but you don't have the wires anymore and and you're basically by yourself with another person in the room. So, I go to this room and I felt sober. Uh, except for the atoxia that uh that's there. You know, I would not really know. I was talking to nurses asking for food and all that. And then I sit down on the bed and there's a little toy, little cosmonaut and it has a little control light on its, you know, head. And I'm looking at it without glasses, without glasses nearsighted.
It's that little green light becomes blurred and it's a sphere of life but light in in the space and I'm looking at it and all of a sudden that sphere gets focused three-dimensional grid appears and a full 3D molecular structure of IBAT appears.
>> Oh my god, that's the most insane thing I've ever heard. It rotates and I look at it and I'm like, "Yep, you got it correctly."
And I was I'm telling you, I was doing high-fi with IBO. I was like, "You >> Oh my god." And there was >> You can still see that image today like that like what you experienced in that moment. Can you can you still conjure that 3D depiction now?
>> Absolutely. And there's this and then all of a sudden I felt >> like I is here, the entity is here and we're two kids. There was this joy and this excitement and this playfulness was like we let's play. We're we're in this >> I love that so much. Kids in a sandbox.
Give me give me that shovel.
>> Yes. Kids are in in this like psychotech lab, right? and and then it starts showing me the analoges that we're making in the lab.
So, it's just showing like look, I'm serious. This is not just, you know, not just uh like I'm I'm putting some molecules together and then it gets into a creative mode and it's showing me all these different variations and I'm my notebook and I'm just going and this is absolutely fantastic.
And at the same time I am bi biology right I'm this is now 12 to 24 hours after the iOS. So I'm I am exhausted and I need to eat. So I keep bothering nurses to bring me food. I have to fuel this biology because I have this the psychotic experiment going here.
>> Yeah.
>> So it was hilarious too. Dude, I begging I was begging nurses and the kitchen was closed. So, this was going on, but it kept going and it was incredible. And then the nurse comes and she says, "You have to rest." And she turns up the cosmo. And >> this is my portal. This is >> just picturing a grown man like shouting at a woman for turning off their toy light. I'm like, why would you do that?
>> You're like a bad kid, you know, a naughty kid and just like, no, this is my toy.
And so I lay down exhausted on the bed.
So there's my bed. There's the curtain.
And I'm just laying down and there's a little bit of light coming from the next room. You know, the door is a little bit open. There's this little bit of light coming. And I'm I'm just looking at it.
And all of a sudden, that light moves on the curtain. That source of light sealed the three-dimensional ball reappears and we're back in business.
>> Oh my god, it found a way. It came back to you.
>> Second problem was solved. So, we're we're fist bumping now, right, with Ebo.
You're like, Ebo, it's amazing. He's got it's like you can solve problems. It's important insight. And there he goes.
So, I lay I lay down and I just put up my knee as I'm laying down and the light moves on my knee. So, I have my own personal portal.
>> Oh my god, >> it was amazing. And then I was writing down all these ideas and that took me weeks and I'm still coming up with interpretations of those structures and you know very molecular but then it start asking me questions. Do you want to know this? Do you know I want that?
And then it uses then all of a sudden it puts me in this hypnotic state and it uses the whole curtain or the whole bed as a projection screen. No. And and then I'm s and it's like yes matrix pharmacology the first step on the right direction but then that that leads to this that leads to that that leads to that and it's basically showing me how it's working >> and And my words that I wrote down were Ian at that mo at the in the moment. Ian is an endomputational therapeutic and psychosspiritual technology.
>> End. What is endocmputational?
>> Yeah. It basically kept showing me that it sets up a novel computational state in the mind and that is what then proceeds to scan the system, diagnose the system and initiate treatment.
So it's basically a computational technology.
So that's crazy theory. That's the vision, right? I mean, let's make sure we know what we're talking about. But that was what I received. And it showed details. It showed me details how it algorithmically goes through the connections in neural networks and edits and scans and edits, re re-edits, scan.
It's And I think that it set set and I was in that in that computational state for hours on hours.
It was incredible. I was I also received other messages that it gave me you know but the the the conclusion or the report from this from this experiment would be that it's an endomp meaning endo meaning inside right endogenous uh that it sets up uh it uses our hardware word wet wear uh and through that unusual pharmacology it just sets up a completely different uh state and And it was it's so interesting how it communicates like this is a novel computational state.
It's not quantum computing. It's like immediately like a footnote. It's not quantum computing. It's a novel thing.
It's a novel state.
>> Wow.
>> So it give you any insights or any genuine hard chemistry or science that you have validated since then in in its action?
like did it reveal any truths to you that you've been able to experimentally confirm in any way?
>> Yes, excellent question. That's ongoing.
>> All right.
>> So, those specific specific >> specific structural features we it's they're drawn. They will be synthesized.
We will we will explore those. Yeah.
>> But they're plausible still. Like it's not just that it said, you know, electrons jump over here and it didn't even make any chemical sense. There was a thing >> right?
>> Wow.
>> They were both phase that's plausible.
was just just absolutely coherent uh communication about structures and then it went into this overdrive when it goes into symbol symbolic representation and again there were structures and plants together and that is more like on a kind of scientific artistic fusion and it was more symbolic and more creative and that I'm decoding or interpreting still you know and and uh like there's this example of this beautiful fusion of kind of plan morphology and chemical structures and then later weeks later I realized that it's showing me how to look at the molecule from a different angle that I haven't looked at yet and saw the video it incredible.
Yeah. and you've only taken Ibegan once like you had this experience and it didn't make you want to go back and do it next year and the year after like you were you know talk about that cuz I'm so curious >> I will I will do it again and but uh I wanted to see so just to finish you know then again they check on your heart and blood and everything's fine so that they send me to my room to my my own room and in the meantime I would go and meet the other people there and we would have lunch and you know I still wouldn't hadn't slept right 24 plus hours this is now 30 plus hours and you have a normal conversation and you're you know you're seeing your new friends there and then after the food I thought finally I can sleep because at this point you're getting very exhausted when I get to I get to my room close the door draw the curtains lay down thinking finally I'm going to sleep but new chapter.
>> What? It's so interesting that it dips in and out and you can kind of >> constrain it or channel it to be like a coherent human being having food at people and you know be kind of I don't want to say sober but like almost bordering on it and then you just you go to yourself again it blows up again.
I've never really heard any sort of drug experience like that.
>> No, it's very unique. It's unique and that's why I call it simulations more than hallucinations because they're certainly in the peak exper and the peak of the experience.
it, you know, it feels like it's pretty intense and uh lots of images and, you know, fascinating creativity and but it's like, okay, it's psychedelic, but really when it slows down a little bit, it keeps going and it's just so it's slow down and I have these objects and they rotate around. You have this virtual holographic simulations and you just can enjoy and look at it and just you know and then it moves on and another it's like it's just so so sophisticated and then yeah you go to bathroom or you know you have a meal you come back and keeps going so so the next chapter I thought I thought I was done but no I asked big questions you know and so I received fully formed answers in chapters. But at this point, I come to my room and I close my eyes and all of a sudden the next chapter comes and that quality of the visuals is so good, so incredible that at this point I'm starting to panic like I've been hacked.
It's like this is so so pre the so precise the reality.
>> And what is that reality? described.
>> All of a sudden, I'm in I'm in people's living rooms and in the city and I'm seeing the life and all of a sudden I get into this massive sweat shop and there are young people sitting in front of the computer screens. Beautiful young people, hundreds of them, you know, just endless row of people sitting just kind of zombie like in front of their screens.
code machine >> and I w and I have to watch this for hours and then you hear the voice global addiction global addiction globally like okay now I understand what this is about and then I can help I can help I can help so that was a beautiful message and then it kept going again this wasteful design and these conveyor belts they're just rusty and coal and plastic and garbage and I have to watch wasteful and planet destruction. I have to watch that for hours. It was very serious and painful. And then it got into what I later understood just I was in these living rooms with people. I was there's the family having dinner and it's so so real.
And then I go into another one and then I walk in the street and then I realize these people are people but that other family were AI.
>> Whoa.
>> And all of a sudden it's showing me real AI, real AI. And all of a sudden it gets close closer and then you're like in this world when you're like no idea what. Yes.
>> That's insane.
It's it's literally fortunetelling mode.
This is so hauntingly terrifying. And were these people you knew? Were these faces familiar to you?
>> No.
>> So it was just a feeling that one of them was artificial in some sense and it was a >> again it's just like you know these are people I'm and so perfectly reality you know it's like you're in the living room with people. I'm like what am I doing here? But okay I'm observing life. I I got it. I got it. Let me I'm observing and and then you there's a very good sense that they are, you know, biological people. And then you go to another place, another and then I realized, wait a minute, there's, you know, like the kind of the Matrix movie, you realize there's a little bit and then there's this sense like, yeah, this is a simulation. This is kind of AI. And then it's just getting closer and closer and closer.
you know this this is for hours. This is wow. You're in it. And so there's a moment when you panic and I panicked and I was like, okay, so now I'm permanently altered. And because the like you open your eyes, you're in your room, you close your eyes and there's this perfect rendition of reality.
It's the simulation path. If there's one thing again I would say in addition to Iberian being endocmputational therapeutic is that it enhances the simulation power of our mind by orders of magnitude. It's incredible technology that enhances the simulation power. I closed my eyes this fully rendered so realistic that I thought >> would you consider do you think you have um vivid mental imagery in wakeful state? I'm curious what your sort of mod sensory modality profile would be. I would I would think so. Yeah, I think so.
>> Very interesting.
>> Yeah.
>> So, this keeps going. Um and so I again it made me through made me work it through. So, right there's this is now 36 hours on. So, at this point you're thinking, okay, now I'm permanently altered. So, then you have to work through that which I thought I felt later on. And it's like it's one of those things that I does and you see it in reports with people who are dependent on substances that sometimes it send them sends them back into those decisions that they made the bad decisions in their lives, right? And shows them and they go through this loop of making mistakes and then they see parallel life, simulated life. This is your life without drugs and this is your life with drugs.
against simulation power. That's what people report is incredible. So I I certainly had a taste for that. And then finally I was falling asleep and I thought it would be over but it wasn't.
I was it kept going in my dreams and there's another mastery of I'm now I know I'm sleeping but it's a vivid dream. I know I'm dreaming and I'm not a very good vivid uh vivid dreamer uh lucid dreamer. So I was a lucid dream and I'm not a normal lucid dream dreamer. I was lucid dreaming. I knew I was dreaming but I also knew that the imagery was I kept going and now heavy symbolism right and there questionnaires I have to fill out you know it's incred and then then you transition into a dream. So then all of a sudden, oh, I am dreaming. This is my dream. Somehow I was distinguishable.
Incredible. And finally, I was out and then I woke up 7 hours later and it was gone.
The the the visionary experience. So your question, would I do it again at at the clinic? uh clients often do a booster or do second dose, a third dose.
Sometimes it's necessary to break their, you know, whatever their uh their condition is.
But I I was I was definitely not going to do another dose because this was very long and intense and I wanted to experience what is that process of day after, week after, month after. Right now I'm 6 months plus and as shown to me in the vision um that process is it starts a basically an algorithm and that keeps going you know that resetting restructuring modulation keeps going for for weeks and some people describe really about 6 to 12 months um so it's a long process so I didn't want to interrupt that >> and that booster would usually be directly after some of the other people that you were taking it with. They was go in again for another 36 hours. My god, they would take a day off, but they Oh, good.
>> Most people do not have 36 hours of visions. They have four to six hours, >> four to have intense experience. After 12 hours, they're back day off and then the following day, they would take a booster or another dose.
>> Wow. So, it's it's not typical to be in it for 36 or more hours, but there are certainly reports that people have had this. Um, but I received the full treatment. I'm so grateful.
The reason I ask about mental imagery, that's why I'm so curious. I I don't think we've really studied how psychedelic drugs interact with the unique sensory profiles that people live their normal wakeful reality in. You know, if you're a a heavy visualizer with very vivid imagery, what kind of psychedelic experience will you have?
You know, my sister has aphantasia, so it's black on black. You know, what kind of psychedelic experience will she have?
I think that that is just a whole other domain, not just one dimension we haven't looked at. There's like a hundred dimensions in that in that area of research I find super interesting.
>> Definitely. And that's right. And the people with this condition, what kind of experience would they have any visual experience?
And if they do, it would be fascinating for them, right? Because they cannot really have imagery. They cannot create their own imagery. So that would be very very bizarre experience for them. Yeah.
For I've got lots of anecdotes that they do that it's not a that they do that they can. Now they're just anecdotes. Um and I've also gotten anecdotes that they haven't. So some people have some people haven't but it seems certainly possible because part of that as you mentioned part of the aphantasia component is voluntary mental imagery and you know whatever the psychedelics are inducing is involuntary. So I guess there's you know there's interactions between the frontal lobe and the fusoform imagery node that seems to be the connectivity there seems to be an issue with aphantasia. Um, so psychedelics might be generating that imagery in sort of a different pathway since it's involuntary, but it's just we really just haven't studied it, which I find it it just seems so important that we we figure this out.
>> Very interesting. And this is so relevant for game because some people have none of this.
>> Some people describe the the void. They're for hours they're in this kind of void or this kind of vibrating field. Some people have mild meditative experiences. Some people have nothing. There are patients that sleep through it. They take a flood dose of iboggade which is so stimulating they sleep through it. So it's very very different and uh that's something that obviously we need to study and understand whether it's you know I >> is it for the person or is it for the state of that person is in is it that particular um mindset mind state that that I interacting and Um so so yeah it was it was a great experiment and >> sounds like it >> it um it really advanced the way I plan experiments think about the field um you know massive leap forward uh uh even if our theory is wrong which we we could be wrong of course uh I think it's very useful at this point to to plan experiments that way and to think about this this way it's it really doesn't >> Yeah.
>> Do you think there is anything to the idea that you earned the experience? I know it sounds very ascient but again we kind of have to throw out the textbook here a bit because nothing you described makes any sense under a typical neuropharmacology explanation. So we kind of have to throw out a textbook. Do you think that there is something to the fact that you spent 20 years studying this thing and then you took it and it just kind of gave you everything you possibly could have imagined and more?
But you in a real sense like you you earned it. And this is a common thing you hear about with DMT when people start getting, you know, all up on theelves about taking DMT and wanting to exploit it that they get blocked. They get DMT blocked. This is a thing that I find >> this is I've talked to many people about this. This is one of the strangest phenomena I think exists.
>> You think you think it's a verifiable phenomena.
>> So I was skeptical, but I talked to Andrew Gallomore. Um, so Andrew Gallomore is is an absolute expert on this stuff, and he just had it's so common. And David Luke has ran some really big field studies with DMT, has done a lot of really large surveys and and done really good published work on DMT entities. And he said it as well. He said he personally got blocked. He said that he was he said that he in his early years was experimenting a bit too much.
He was getting a bit cocky. He was getting a bit too using it for recreational purposes and he got punched in the in the back of the head by God and then he and then he >> and then and then for like a a few months he like tried to come back in and they were like no sorry. And then he had to be like come on guys please. Like I promise I won't do it again. And eventually he was able to get his way.
Like it's just that makes no sense. That makes absolutely no sense. I did there's no slide about that in my neuropharmacology lectures, you know, about how God can smack you in the back of the head and it stops you having some sort of chemical reaction. Like that's why you kind of have to throw out the textbook a little bit. Um and why I appreciate and respect what you did so much because our explanations don't even scratch that. They just don't even touch it.
>> No. Even even that even that bit right where I see a blurred light so my hardware you know my lenses are not working properly right I'm nearsighted so that I get a input of a blurred light to my visual cortex and that's used as a projection screen in a 3D to give an experience of a 3D molecular model and the information is being I That is that is an exceptional state of consciousness.
>> Yes, it is >> right.
And and you feel you feel normal basically. I mean, you really only retrospect you realize, oh, I was I was in the field. I was this was intense.
But you feel good and you feel as I said as a child being in the playroom.
Uh and that's just that little piece.
It's it it is it is really extraordinary. So on this topic okay um so I when I speak about this I always reaffirm that we're anchored within the scientific method right so and it's a good thing because once you get into psychedelics and these uh unusual states of consciousness experiences which of course there are tons of reports of those were being pulled and the scientific method is being stretched and and challenged and which is also very good but it's good to maintain that anchor so you have something to come back to there are facts there are verifiable facts there are measurable facts and then there are some that are not so easy to measure and then there are some >> yes >> so I just want to say that we're trying to maintain that but we're not afraid of going into the the interface right science spirituality that interfaces are where things happened, where the new things emerge and psychedelics are really bringing up to that bringing us to that interface, which is great. On this topic that you mentioned, throwing off the the textbook and just let's go free. Now, there's certainly been experiences on ibo game that I think purposefully did I deserve it? I did I you know uh it sounds like okay 20 years of work here I'm going to give you something really >> you absolutely earned it like >> but there's no doubt that it showed me things to just poke me and challenge the neurobiological explanatory framework.
Right? So it showed things that would that were just undeniably clear what that is and I would see it in the future. So it would just show me I'm not going to get into details here but it definitely challenged this whole notion of everything is in the linear timeline and all that and I think it was done very carefully and clearly to challenge the scientific paradigm.
So, so I we need to be aware of that these these experiences are for real and you know we need to consider the the fact that we're on the on the fringes we're on the interfaces.
What would you say is the largest shift in you six months on? Anything from a metaphysical position to a a skip in your step to, you know, anything like what is there any big noticeable change now 6 months on?
Yeah, it's there's several and there are they appear subtle and I also hear this from uh in the reports of course there are these massive changes when somebody is totally suicidal and they right I've seen these people in the clinic they come and they they are thinking death >> and they're leaving and they're thinking life And one of the hallmarks of Ian experience is reorienting a relationships of your relationship to your social group and to your society and to potentially to your whole planet like showing the importance of the relationships and where you belong, where you are, what the rel what the relationships mean, right? Every like a lot of people leave like I want to fix my relationships. I really need to fix my relationships and from death to life that so there's d as dramatic as it gets changes but then also you hear and with people who go there with kind of more of a purpose you know optimization kind of goals spirituality goals and there are these very subtle they appear you know dece deceptively subtle changes but they're add up um so in my case I just um am experientially much more in it. I am now I understand this the depth of this this molecular information. I understood it intellectually which took me to the matrix theory and I'm so grateful that I'm on this path but I am it's not just intellectual now it's really experiential emotional kind of embodied almost spiritual spiritual experience you know when when I'm doing my work or just just being being in in life so I think that enhance that that being in touch with with the now and with the moment with my family with the work with with the with the humanity. So that's >> that's really beautiful.
>> Another one that >> another one that was unexpected or unplanned was that you know I used to like to have a glass of beer with dinner or a glass of wine and and I wasn't alcoholic but I would you know three four maybe five days a week I would have a drink with dinner and I just lost interest in it in alcohol. It's so bizarre. real or just lost interest.
>> And was that something that you did that come up during the experience? Like was alcohol even remotely at present? They what you from the future didn't emerge to you and say look you don't need that hinekin at dinner. It just didn't wow that's so interesting. It's just uh yeah, it tastes still good, but it's not interesting and further or something weird.
>> And it's I'm like, "Oh my, this really works when people describe, you know, all of a sudden it's just not and sometimes I get this almost as if I had smart goggles, you know, it's like, oh, you know, it's end of the day. It would be nice to have a drink, relax with dinner. And all of a sudden, as if this is, you know, this is kind of in your mind. It's like deck of cards. You take deck of cards and you spread the cards and each card has a component of the reinforcing cycle that could lead to addiction, right? The Q and then the the projected reward and then the executive function. what do you have to do to procure the drink and then the actual consumption then the re taste reinforcing effect you see all like all of a sudden you see all these components of why you used to drink and and it's just showing you like each each component is weakened and and that's that's the theory how why is it so effective in addiction uh area and that appears to really address or treat these key hallmarks of addiction, right? The components of fine addiction habits, right? Habitual. So you have you have Q Q triggers habits and even sub even subconsciously things are already happening often that lead to behavior that leads to then procuring the drink, getting the drink, drinking the drink. So it could be both conscious and subconscious. It's all happening and it kind of like spread it kind of shows these different components and I think that it's effective at treating these different components at the same time or in the sequence.
>> Wow. So it's the dependence itself which again that's where it all started in the west right in New York City right here.
Howard lot he discovered that serendipitously. There might have been some other cases before that, but that's the one that really brought it to to light here that you lose or you attenuate that dependence, the physical dependence, the withdrawal symptoms, the acute withdrawal symptoms.
>> Yeah, that's how it all started for me and for many people. And that's still amazing. But I think there's more than that. It then addresses the protracted withdrawal syndrome, which is the depression, anxiety, right?
uh all that and then you know potential trauma they might be associated with that and and so it's it's really this multifaceted uh systems approach to to treatment.
>> This has been so fascinating. I mean you've you've completely blown my mind.
I think we're going to need more conversations just because there I barely even asked you any questions that I had prepared. We just like I had so much more. I wanted to go to into capa opioid agonism and you know we we didn't even touch really on the addiction mechanisms as much as I'd like in the nuts and bolts but this has been so interesting. We we don't remotely have enough time for you to fully answer this out, but I have to ask, has your mindset, mental model about consciousness shifted at all? I'm going to assume that, you know, you you were a sort of a run-of-the-mill materialist beforehand. Correct me if that's wrong.
Please do.
How is h I don't know how you would experience what you just described for 36 hours and not have a shift in how you view consciousness and experience.
>> Yeah, very good question. Big question.
I so I really like and I think I was cultivating this this worldview even before I begin but I think it definitely changed after the worldview of there are different views and different ways to understand the world and the consciousness which is our that's our interface how we communicate right with the world with ourselves and and all this so yes I was very well you embedded in the neurobiological uh explanatory hypothesis and it has its merit but I wasn't completely close to >> right >> to you know kind of more spiritual uh spir spiritual ideas uh or non-materialistic consciousness but again the when you look at the parcychology literature and all that it was usually it just is not really confirmed in any major way or at least I thought so I was open but skeptical and I really like um Carl Jung's uh ideas that I you know I used to read him a lot and I still consult and he has this great book called synchronicity and he really goes and he really goes into this exact question because he as a as a doctor as a practitioner he had these reports he right they his patients would bring him these these experiences that are difficult to explain within uh classical scientific materialistic paradigms.
So he would be very open to it and he would study it and then he would look into some older literature of you know all sorts of things like reading cards across the continents and things like that. But he comes up his conclusion was that that um um under strong emotional experiences the time space shifts and is molded.
So kind of like quantum entanglement, you know, the the physics that that there there are these there are these uh experiences and moments where the the time and it's not not all linear and and as clear, you know, as materialistic as it seems. So this seemed to me really a reasonable way to think about it. And so I was open. But after this experience and after I begin slipping in few cases to challenge me, I'm definitely much more cautious and much more open, much more cautious about over interpreting and yes, we're overrelying on the strict materialistic uh hypotheses and ideas. Uh I it's hard to really dismiss that. It's like okay, so there might this might be this might be for real. you know that that the the timeline is much more flexible and uh not so linear than than we think. So it's definitely a deeper deeper experience and this it open these windows like well maybe you should think as a scientist you should think about it more. I love it more to dive into in round two I think. Um amazing it's so incredible. I mean thank you so much for sharing your experience in such vivid detail. It's truly remarkable and just absolutely mind-blowing and kind of makes me want to book a ticket to Mexico City. Um, you know, I think it will definitely happen in the future for me.
I want to do it right. Um, I want to do it in a safe way, in a responsible way and then tell story like you in a in a safe and responsible way. But >> damn, I mean that there's everything about that just sounds so fascinating.
Um, you've set the bar way too high though because no one can possibly live up that experience. You've just set the most impossibly difficult to achieve.
Like everything you possibly imagined and way more happened to you. And I don't want to go in with that expectation.
>> Although it's interesting even to think about what that version would be for me.
Um, you know, I think onetenth of what you experienced there. It sounds worth it for people. And damn, I mean, everyone has something big or small to figure out. And uh, >> that's right.
>> Absolutely incredible. I would just add that um right for people listening I I would not would not take it um trivially or easily this is a serious intervention >> yes you know to go through the flood dose of ibukane it's something that I would not do as just fun or some recreational thing it's something that you really want to prepare you want to make sure that your health, you know, cardiac health is, you know, you really need to go through all those checks and then there's almost a connectivity with with the molecular with the medicine that you need to feel this is a right time and this is right for me. So I wouldn't I wouldn't just do it frivolously or just just you know just curiosity. There needs to be kind of a substance um behind that behind that that trip.
Yes. Yeah. Well said Dabort. Thank you so much for the conversation. This has been such a pleasure and an amazing amazing story and I appreciate again.
Thank you so much for sharing it. Love to have around too and so many so much more to go into. Excited to see if any of these things that you learned on your trip are validated scientifically. I think that would be just one of the most remarkable things. But thank you so much. This has been awesome.
>> Great pleasure. Thank you for the invitation. Good meeting you. The giant shoulder mission is to explore radical ideas in biology, neuroscience, and consciousness and elevate those stories to the highest possible level while keeping them accessible to everyone. If this interests you and you want to support independent science, then please consider subscribing to the clips channel. Check out our 26 neuroscience book. Can download it for free.
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