Arturo Galansino interviews Christopher Rothko and Elena Geuna – Rothko in Florence

追加: 2026-05-12

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[00:00:32]Good morning and welcome everybody to Palatostia to the exhibition Rotco in Florence. One of the most important show ever devoted to one of the greatest artist of modern times Mark Roto. Today I'm here with the curators of the show Christopher Roco and Elena Juna and uh with a group of student of the institut Marangoni Florence from the art department who wrote the questions that now I I will ask you Christopher and Elena let's go directly at the heart of this long pro project that required many years of preparation we are talking about five years of preparation Christopher please would you like to share how the idea a to bring Marotco back to Florence came about.

[00:01:21]>> I think the evolution really began when I edited my father's book of philosophical writings uh in 2004.

[00:01:30]Uh we'd had some awareness that this manuscript existed in uh incomplete form for some time. And when I say we, by the way, that is in parenthesis me and my sister Kate, who is always at least my silent partner, sometimes my very public partner in these projects. Uh, and uh, going through this manuscript to prepare it for publication. It's not complete, but we were able to make something that is is readable and uh I think comprehensible by the public with uh you know rare to have the philosophical thoughts of an artist laid out in this fashion. But he spends much of the book speaking about uh speaking about uh his love of uh Italian art, his love of uh the Renaissance and also how much he's looking at Renaissance artists uh as models for how to think through uh the questions that face an artist, how you make a painting believable, how you um create uh a space within the painting that uh isn't dead but is alive from front to back, how you balance perspective with what he called tactility, something that really feels uh like you can touch it and is believable in the room. Uh so seeing all these ideas, I understood how important it would be for him to bring uh his artwork here to to Florence, the the heart of the Italian Renaissance. Uh we also knew specifically from some interviews that he had mentioned the convent of San Marco as a particularly large influence on uh his thinking about space about uh creating uh spiritual spaces about having uh solitary moments with artwork and also the vestibule of the Lenton Library where Michelangelo creates this hermetically sealed space where you really can only deal with the world that he creates. He uses this model when he goes on to make uh his own mural series for the serum building and later for um Harvard University and we can see sketches of of some of those works uh in the small galleries uh here at Palatto Stratzy. So we are here in one of the rooms of the exhibition. Can you tell us something about the pathway of this show? What the visitor will see here at Palato Stratzy? What the visitor will see is what when u Christopher and I started working at this project five years ago, we thought that um after having visited the architecture, the Renaissance architecture of the space, we thought to create a more intimate and emotional uh exhibition. Starting though with the early works from the 30s where the artist was already um confronting himself with European painting and mostly with the quatroento of Italian origins and then going through the new surrealist phase of the early 40s still in the first room and then the passage via the multiform moving into abstraction and then coming realizing in 1949 what is going to be the most important way to communicate his feelings to the spectator to the viewer um via abstract rectangles. In 1949, he had a very famous um exhibition in 1950, a Bettin Parson's gallery where a few of the paintings in the in the room number three are presented and um the rectangle becomes then the most important uh form. the justaposed rectangles, they're allowing him to let the painting breathe and transpire and uh communicate his feelings of tragedy and ecstasy to the viewer. in the 50s. Then we're moving through a room that is um of very colorful yellow and red and white of the early 50s. uh where the exhibition uh is really uh addressing the early classic works and where the artist is already evolving into what becomes Lifra, the most important part of his work for what he will be known and that is after his first trip in Italy in 1950 with his wife Mel. And going back to what Christopher was saying in 1950 he visited the conventto de San Marco and the vestibule. So those influence are starting to appear in his work already more even more than they were in the early works. So the narrative continues through the other rooms more intimate with the green and blues and then via two rooms in which we are presenting sketches for the series in which the artists work in 58 and 62 for the serum murals inspired by the vestibule and the Harvard murals of 62 inspired maybe by his second trip to Italy in Pompei where or peston where he saw saw the Greek temples to conclude with the room where we are of the late 50s and early 60s in where the colors vision and suggestion of the color red will allow us to have different experience and understand how the painting vibrates in different ways depending of the colors and the layers.

[00:07:20]But the light will always transpires through these different layers.

[00:07:25]archaeological paint that the artist uses to conclude with the last two room of 69 um the black and gray series in which he was um working. It was a departure after he was quite ill in 1968 very ill and depressed you were telling me. Um so the black and gray are a new departure. Uh very simpler uh just two level black and underneath gray or brown or blue but the poetry of the artist is still there. The first time where a white border appears around to conclude in the final room um with works on paper that are actually considered real paintings by the artist and they are reminding us they're presented in an octagonal form and they're reminding us of the terraena and the light blue colors of the Italian quatrochento.

[00:08:28]At the beginning of the path as Elena say just said we have this big selection of early works which for many visitor could look a little bit more unexpected in the roco imagery.

[00:08:45]What do you think these paintings reveal about his further developments of his career and how do you connect them with the more famous abstract style of Rotkco? Well, I will just note when you I'll start with the the unexpected piece. It's it's remarkable to me his his classic style. These these paintings are so iconic that people will come to a retrospective. They will see the early work. They will be surprised and often really love the early work and they will come to me and say, "I've never seen these before." And I said, "But I know you were at the retrospective seven years ago in Washington or New York or what." And I said, "And we had two rooms of those works." but they forget this this for them is Rothkco. So I'm always always working to remind people about the full arc of the career. And part of the reason I do that is because it's not like these early works are divorced from what happens later. Um I really think from the beginning to the end he has the same ideas in mind. He's trying to speak to us in the same way and he's simply developing a clearer, more direct language over time and through experience of speaking to us uh in on almost a preverbal level. He's he's eliminated narrative. He is just speaking to the inside of us in a way that um I think many people like find extremely powerful. The early work however has its own magic. We can see as Elellena mentioned a strong European influences in in particularly in the paintings that we have selected. But if you look at the the figures in these paintings, they're all figurative on some level. Uh but many of these figures don't really have faces. You can barely see the faces. These are not personality studies. These are not portraits that we delve into the the be, you know, the the essence of this person. Instead, they're representatives of us as humans. uh and he's speaking to their situation, to their place, to what it feels like to be uh a human being in the world. Uh for instance, he paints many paintings in the New York subway, which uh today is not so beautiful. Then it was in some ways worse. It was really crowded, cold, damp spaces uh and people just pressed together and you to some degree lost your humanity there. And so many of these figures are very slender. they become almost part of the architecture and he really is speaking to a type of dehuman dehumanization that happens there. So again, not that particular person. There's a woman in a striking red jacket. I think we all would like that jacket in our wardrobe, but it's not about the jacket and it's not about her. It's about her as almost becoming a support for the ceiling. And uh he's really much more interested in the space in that tunnel that that seems to move uh beyond us out of out of the painting.

[00:11:39]So we can see already him beginning to talk to us about what it means to be human, what it means to be alive, uh what's our experience in the world. And and he's doing the same same thing in this room. He's just learned how to to bypass the world of the everyday and go straight to the heart of of experience.

[00:11:59]Marotco created a very special pictorial language.

[00:12:04]A pictorial language that communicates universally and he did it just relying on colors, proportion and special special presence, right? So, how in your opinion, how does this shift from representation to pure perception can change the way viewers engage with paintings?

[00:12:31]As Christopher was saying, um, Rosco was trying to communicate with people from the beginning of his career and with the classic painting, with the colorfield painting, he found his own special way to communicate. Uh space and form are paramount to the composition and the color field becomes an addition and the narrative is obliterated and it's leaving space to an immersive experience for the viewer to approach the painting and to experience almost was the painter himself was experiencing when he was trying to paint it. And uh as we go through the exhibition, we see and we feel different, at least that's what we try to propose to the viewer, different experiences, more intimate room, different colors like the second room, the green and the blues are more intimate, more introvers. It was in the mid50s when Rothkco was wondering whether his earlier classic had been considered a little bit too decorative.

[00:13:52]So he decided to shift the palette and it became a little bit more introverse and they're becoming they're demanding more time from the viewer, more meditative. And so they're requesting more attention and getting closer and being um completely immersed in the experience.

[00:14:15]Um I think that that is the most important of the evolution of of the 50s and the classic painting on how the it has evolved.

[00:14:29]Christopher as we said at the beginning the questions were written by the great students of the art department of the institute of Marangoni Florence and they are an international crowd of people they come from all over the world one of them come from Latia >> ah >> actually from dogpills which is the previously known vinsk so let's speak about identity roots you know today Many of us build our own identity across different cultures and countries.

[00:15:05]And in this sense, Rokco is very contemporary because he left Russian Russian Empire at the time. He became American and later an international figure of the artwork. How much do you think this experience of migration and cultural layering playing a formative role in his artistic vision?

[00:15:28]That's a complicated question. I will do my best to uh to uh unpack this. Um and the easy answer is that it I think it was complicated for him and at different points he had different attitudes. Uh we can see this reflected in in his name which changed over time.

[00:15:47]He it began as Rokovich, son of a redhead. Uh a Russian version of probably an earlier ger like centuries earlier German name. Um, and when he came to uh when he came to America, it was changed to Rothkco Witz, which is the Polish version of that name. His brothers shortened it to Roth, and my father eventually shortened it to Rothco. You actually see in the late 1930s, early 1940s, he goes back and forth. He doesn't sign many paintings, but if a painting is going to an exhibition, he will sign it. Sometimes it's Rothkco, sometimes it's Rothkcoitz.

[00:16:21]He doesn't officially change it to Rothkco until 1950. But the family, the story in the family is that he changed it. They did not like Rothkcoitz because they felt um they weren't Polish. They were Russian/Lafian. And my and my sister tells a story. My sister's um uh quite a few years older than I am that sometime when she's nine or 10, he pulled out a map and showed her where he was from. And he said, "We we were Russian." He said, "Well, actually, we this is Latafia." So of course that part of the world changed multiple times during his lifetime. Uh in many ways America gave him freedom to paint more what he wanted. Um there was uh less tradition that he had to uh connect to or had to follow. Um and yet I think in many ways he always felt more European.

[00:17:14]He said he never felt 100% uh American even though he claimed not to speak any other other languages that's then other than English which is simply can't be true because he left uh Latafia 10 probably not speaking Latvia in his region at Latgalia was really Russian speaking but speaking Russian and Yiddish and uh at least learning Hebrew in school and apparently French in in at university uh and I I certainly never heard him speak that but in any case um I I think that European sensibility rather than running away from it. Espec again especially as you see in that first gallery, he is looking very much at European models and we know from his travel here and he longed so for many many years until he could afford in 1950 at almost the age of 50 years old to come to to Italy. He was longing to come here and and live amongst the masters that he was studying uh in in New York as best he could through through the museums there and also just through through books. So it's it's it's both.

[00:18:13]It's a America gives him a frontier, an open frontier on which to uh create his artwork, but he's also always feeling connected to that European tradition.

[00:18:23]>> Let's go back to Rosco's uh practice. We know that he was incredibly meticulous about every details in displaying his works. You know, the distance, you have to observe them, the height to hang them. And about this exhibition uh which curatorial and display choices were introduced in this project to control the experience of the visitors and how does a curator confront the legacy of an artist awareness on his of his public uh displays.

[00:19:02]Um, I learned a lot from Christopher because he obviously has been hanging many, many Rosco shows. Um, we knew that Rosco was very meticulous as you said, um, from the beginning how we wanted his painting to be presented. And we read that in his first solo exhibition in 1954 at the art institute of Chicago there was there is a long um conversation in writing exchange of letters with Katherine Ku the chief curator there and Rosco explain in very meticulous details and I've seen plan of that exhibition how he wants his painting to be presented And when we started hanging, I then learned with Christopher, you know, the height from the floor for the large painting should be really kept, you know, to 35 40 cm. We were really careful of the way we chose the walls we wanted to present them. And uh the light also is extremely important because Rosco wanted his painting to be experienced to be an immersive experience where the visitor would walk in and be drawn toward the painting. So the light should be really sused and um not to reflect the painting and the paint too much. So we were really careful on how we were doing the walls. The walls around the painting should be slightly darker. The floor sometimes is lit sometimes is kept dark as an experience in in the last room. So we respected obviously all the wishes of the artist because the role of a curator is bringing the utmost respect to the understanding of the philosophy of the artist of how he wanted his art to be uh presented to the visitor. And Christopher was telling me the other day that his father would have loved this show because of the intimacy of this room and the architecture, the Renaissance architecture. So we um really decided to have a different rhythm from one room to the other to bring different emotion uh to the viewer.

[00:21:38]Let's speak about being an artist because you know among the students of the institute of Marangoni many of them in the future they will be artists they are studying for being an artist and they often face the challenge that's very tough of explaining and justifying their works at the beginning could be very very difficult. We know very well that your father he didn't like to write and speak about a lot about his art. Of course he wrote something but he prefer to paint let's say that no and he he believed and that his work was explaining itself very well. Uh what can a young artist learned from Rokco's aversion to writings and explanation about his art and research?

[00:22:29]uh my my father was more willing to talk about his work earlier in his career and his as his work became more abstract and more explicitly experiential. I think he found that the more often that he said things he either generated confusion or that he took attention away from the paintings themselves. uh and because his uh artwork did not have an explicit message, you know, this is not about this ideology. It is not about this situation. It's more universal. He really wanted to not get in the way of anything that between the viewer and the painting. Even to the point of the titles, if you see a title on a painting here, you can be relatively convinced that my father did not create it.

[00:23:16]whether it was a number or a a color description. He would not do this. The the dealers did his uh his his dealers did this because they needed some way to identify the works and and these titles have have have stayed with us. But he wanted nothing to color, no pun intended, nothing to color your experience and the ideas you come to with this uh come to the um that you bring to the work. He wants you to bring yourself honestly. Uh and uh I I think from his side he is trying to be as direct and forthright and honest as possible. And I think if you if to sort of start with the earlier part to go back to the earlier part of your question, what what does an artist do? I think the to the greater degree that you can be honest uh in what you present to your public. That's that's the best message you can give. That is the clearest explanation is uh being honest in in the artwork itself. We mentioned our previous show about Frangelico where the public had this incredible opportunity to observe the the magnificent details of these of these paintings alterpieces etc. And uh Roco he experienced uh you know these paintings in Florence and many bygo many other artists he learned by observing. This is something he said. And how much do you think the impact of Renaissance art can be connected to the development development of his artistic research?

[00:24:49]>> I'm basing my my answer on his book of philosophical writings which is written early in his career at n we know that it started as early as 1936. We know that he was still writing in 1941 and probably the bulk in 194041. He he actually stops painting for a year to uh read philosophy, Greek tragedy, Shakespeare, but also I think to work on this book. And it's important to know that he um does not talk about his own artwork in the book. He never even acknowledges that he's an artist. He is writing as if almost as if he's an art historian, but of course he's not trained as an art historian. Um he's not a writer. So you're really getting a sense of his experience of artwork and what he finds moving uh in artwork. For him a a lot of it is about what what is the role of the artists in the world and what do the examples of the past tell us about how a painting is is convincing and what what is what is the artist bringing to that experience at particularly Renaissance masters. Now, in some ways, um, this is not fair because he does not finish the book. Uh, and he's written a lot about the Italian Renaissance and a little bit about French romanticism and a lot of things missing in between before and after. But clearly the the the Renaissance is is central to his ideas of how a painting works. And it's for him, you can see that he's having a conversation with these painters who are painting 500 years before him. Um, looking at how they're trying to solve pictorial problems. How does he make characters actually interact with each other rather than just staring at the audience? How does he make the space believable in a painting? How does he make sure that color is vibrant? How does he bring light to the painting? And he's looking at Leonardo and Raphael and Frangelico and and and seeing how each of them are answering that question. Of course, that's an evolving answer for them, too, right? They're developing as artists. he sees that uh and sometimes I think it's conscious in terms of what he likes and what he does not like and others it's simply those those the qualities of that of those artists I think we particularly he he focuses onto um come through in his own work in that in terms of that very immediate uh very palpable uh experience of the artwork we already mentioned the two satellite section of the Muza Marco and in the biote Tea Laorenciana Saloreno um from your perspective which were the main curatorial challenges to present Rokco's war works alongside the fresco of Angelico and inside the vestibule by Michelangelo in San Lauren.

[00:27:36]Um, I guess you've all been to see the museum of San Marco and you have experienced this very very uh spiritual place, meditative space where you walk up to the cells and each fresco is in one little cell with a little window.

[00:27:58]So, it's a personal uh spiritual and meditative experience.

[00:28:03]Um and we had to be respectful to that.

[00:28:08]That was the most important thing and that was the most important thing that had affected Roku's visit in the 1950.

[00:28:16]So when we were discussing we it was clear that the dialogue the conversation had to be very delicate and very soft and that the painting of Rodco um had to be respectful of the fresco of Frangelico and the space was very limited. So we had been faced with technical problem how to hang these paintings. first the size of the paintings. Um how to let the viewer experience the painting next to the fresco and the solution came slowly through the years uh via experience with obviously a lot of help of Palato Stratzi. And then at the end, Christopher had a suggestion, a discussion with the architect to try to recreate um a softer version of the walls so that we would be less intrusive.

[00:29:21]And on these walls we then chose smalls size painting so that the conversation would be existing uh would be there but would be subdued and respectful.

[00:29:38]Anything else I >> No, I think that's I think that beautifully summarizes and in some ways these uh little Rothkco take the place of the window. We actually block the windows in these cells but uh you have a little Rothco window in in the room.

[00:29:51]Oh, sorry. And the Laurentian Library. I forgot. Yeah, forgot.

[00:29:54]>> I forgot. Going back to the Laurentian library. That was uh another challenge.

[00:30:00]It was a great honor first um to have the opportunity to hang in the vestibule of Michelangelo. Um, it is the first time that a modern work or any work of art, please correct me, has been exhibited within the vestibule of the Laurentian library as you, I'm sure, might have visited it. It is very constrictive, very small, but very intense. So the architecture had a clear impact on the series of 1958 of the serum murals and so we went to visit it and we thought immediately that that would be the right work to present. Um at the beginning we were looking at the wall at the bottom of the staircase.

[00:30:55]Then there were three walls and we thought maybe three watercolor three early studies would work. Then we discovered that we actually can only use the central wall. Um still grateful but a little bit concerned we thought okay then we should come down to a choice of two. So we had a choice of two vertical watercolor that actually have the power of a painting and there are the studies.

[00:31:25]The impact is extraordinary.

[00:31:29]The architect has been able to be very little invasive and have a dialogue with the existing architecture and let the chromatic power of the two uh painting resonate within the vestibule.

[00:31:49]Yeah, I think you explained very well how the architecture, the very intimate spaces of San Marco and the claustrophobic architecture of San Lorenzo, uh, you know, dialogue engaged this conversation with with Rokco's work today and inspire him in the past when he saw it during his visits to Italy and Florence in the 50s and in 1966.

[00:32:15]Let's stay a little bit more on this topic about architecture because I see there were many questions around uh this topic. Christopher, can you tell us more about the relationship between your father and architecture because we know that this is a you know it's a long story, right?

[00:32:33]>> It is a long story and and honestly every single painting is a different answer to that. But um you know people are very tempted to look at my father's paintings especially in a room like this and focus on the color. The color is dynamic and engaging and and saturated and it gets inside you. But uh he's really um he begins each painting uh you know using his his familiar style but it's not like okay I have my formula and I'm just going to plug in colors.

[00:33:06]Every painting starts he's starting over and imagining what is how he's going to build the structure of this painting. If you go into the small uh small rooms you will see studies for uh for the classic paintings. They're not studies of actual paintings. He doesn't actually paint at any of those studies. Um they're all just ideas of how he forms a believable uh a believable structure for these paintings and they're all in black and white. So he's trying to build spaces.

[00:33:35]He's trying to build almost if you'll say edififices, right? Almost like each think of each of these paintings as as as a building that is uh is is held up on a structural way. But of course, any great building shouldn't feel just piled on top of it each other, the stones.

[00:33:52]They have to somehow expand to something greater than their own materials. And I I think that's really what he's trying to do in these paintings. Create spaces that we can, if not literally enter, metaphysically enter. and uh ones that are inspiring. He spent so much of his time particularly in Italy in sacred spaces seeing uh beautiful beautiful churches that uh that sometimes they're intimate but they feel like they feel expansive. Sometimes they're enormous but fresco in a small chapel will focus your attention there. He's always making this play between something that leads us out to the beyond and something that keeps us very intimate in here. uh and he's uh again we we we've noted the spaces that he actually writes about, but we know we know from my sister who accompanied him on his 1959 trip at the age of eight and tells me from dawn until dusk they went from church to monastery to museum to crypt to I mean constantly hours and hours every day and he was just absorbing all of this. Uh and again not just the artwork but how it was framed by the architecture around it. Another questions about your work, you know, about u your activity about preserving and studying the heritage of Mark Rock that has been going on for decades now, Christopher.

[00:35:18]And how this project fits in this uh work that you have been doing so far so far about your father.

[00:35:28]>> I mean, this exhibition is extremely important to me. I've been trying to do it for well over a decade and I have to tell you having found Palatto Stratzi we have found the altered partner and also just the the perfect space to do it. Um, so the specificity of this and you can, you know, laugh a little bit about the specificity of something that's so abstract, but uh, this would have been incredibly meaningful for him and I and I hope the resonance of his work with this space and the city around it and the artistic history here does does come through. Um in terms of some of the specifics um uh as Elena mentioned you know through many many exhibitions and also just knowing from my father's example we we know some of uh some of the guidelines about how to create a convincing room that um is intimate uh and uh well you can experience the paintings both individually and as an ensemble. That ensemble is very important. It was very important to him.

[00:36:26]He did not like being shown with other artists. It's not that he didn't like other artists. He was looking at other artists constantly, but he felt there would be uh sort of a clash of voices.

[00:36:36]So long before he could really be in any position to insist on his own room, he was insisting on his own room. So we tried we tried to keep honoring that conversation that happens not just with the viewer but amongst the paintings. I will add just for on the preparation front um the last room of this exhibition which is incredibly special.

[00:36:58]I think the three of us all feel like it's a magical ending to this exhibition. These are all uh large-scale works on paper. Um he I I think Ellena mentioned no or maybe our tour mentioned that at the end of his life he was he was quite ill and he was restricted in what he was really allowed to do and at the end he just says I don't care and he starts painting on canvas again in very large scale works on paper but he presented them as paintings and this has been really a a 30 40-year project for my sister and me to find ways that we can present them so they have maximum impact so you really see them as paintings not bound by a frame not behind glass and yet things that will keep the paper safe. Uh papermounted on paper, papermounted with just uh the most delicate adhesives so that um they will not tear uh they will not uh take on the qualities of the support they have. Uh, and um, I have to say that walking through that room, which uh, I think is a very spiritual place, but I'm also there looking and and knowing that um, that we've come up with a solution that is making these paintings happy, not just in terms of how they look, but also in terms of them being preserved for years because we have attended to to their needs.

[00:38:14]>> Elena, what did you learn curating this show? What was something you didn't expect? something new, some new vision about the artist.

[00:38:24]>> Uh I think it was an exceptional experience working with Christopher and um learning so much about Roco that maybe I didn't know, I had not read and I had not experienced it personally.

[00:38:40]And here in Florence, I must say that the touching uh spiritual experience of seeing the roco installed in the San Marco uh it's beyond anything I thought it would be at the end achievable. It is a real conversation and it is so strong and so powerful and the fact that the whole exhibition is taking place in various location in the city I think it's bringing uh really what Christopher was saying before the message of Roco um back to the viewer uh you know let's look and meditate in front of my art. uh let's think of space when you go to the vestibule of the Laurentian library and uh let's learn how his human perception and his human experience has evolved through the years to become um via this different emotion in these rooms eventually something so touching for the public to conclude in what I can call an octagonal chapel again and an octagonal chapel that's mindful I guess you all study the Rosco Chapel in Houston which I visited many years ago and I'm planning to go again but it was an incredible experience and it was the last major um achievement of Rothkco at the end of his career. It took him many years from 64 to 67 he devoted himself to that. So as Christopher said the last room to me in Palatus Strazzi has really had a personal effect.

[00:40:49]And can you both give an advice to the visitors of this show >> going to this exhibition in each of the venues that last room here San Marco Lorenciana if you think you know what an artwork looks like because you've seen it on your screen or in a book the impact of seeing these in place in context uh these are historical contexts these are architectural contexts they're in the context of other Rothkco works it's it's it's not just It's better. It's It's a whole another level of experience.

[00:41:22]>> I would say look at the painting from far, but then get close. Let yourself be immersed by the painting. Discover the different layers, the luminosity, the vibration of the work. experience, for example, how the work behind me looks from far away, black and black, but then you get close and you discover that it's actually black and brown with a little blue. Roco was talking to us, was asking us to experience what he felt when he was painting it. And there is so much in each painting that is really asking you to get as involved as possible and as close as possible. Yeah. If I would say that in our you know times where we always run we are always in hurry roco ask us to take time to observe which today is is a privilege and is a difficult exercise I would say sometimes a difficult exercise. So thank you Elena, thank you Christopher and especially thanks to you the students of the Institute of Marangoni for your great questions. Thank you very much.

[00:42:33]>> Terrific questions. Thank you.

[00:42:35]>> Thank you. And applause to you.