Why Hasn’t the ICC Charged Netanyahu with Genocide?

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:00:00]Let's talk about what's important. Let's talk about Gaza. Almost two years ago, you quite controversially submitted these applications for arrest warrants against not only three leaders of Hamas, but also for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and then Israeli Defense Minister Yov Gallant. You specifically accused them of willful killing, intentionally targeting civilians, extermination, using starvation as a method of warfare, as well as several other war crimes and crimes against humanity. What in your view briefly is the main evidence for those crimes? Well, I can't discuss the evidence because these were secret applications. Uh, the evidence was looked at by me. It was gathered by the team. It was subjected to forensic scrutiny by >> Is this different to what we've seen on our TV screens and what we've seen reported in by human rights groups.

[00:00:45]You're saying you have other levels of evidence.

[00:00:46]>> Well, we have we speak to we don't rely only upon what's uh recorded in the media uh open source information. We have people that we speak to that have suffered uh the harms or that have seen the the harms or the alleged crimes and we subject it to analysis to make sure it's authentic, it's reliable and that it's capable of belief. And when I combine that with the higher standard that we apply, a standard I don't have to apply for applications which is being satisfied that there's a real realistic prospect of conviction. Uh we uh made that finding it was endorsed by the panel of experts. But much more important than this prosecutor's word is the fact that three independent judges, highly experienced judges of the International Criminal Court, the pre-trial chamber, pre-trial chamber, they reviewed uh that evidence and they issued warrants for >> and they took their time too. They gave it later in the year. Um, you and the court received a lot of praise for requesting these arrest warrants, but many would argue there was already enough evidence uh of Israeli crimes well into the first few months of this war. They point to Israel's complete siege of Gaza from October the 8th, the multiple strikes on apartment buildings and refugee camps in October of 2023 when you said you went out there, the genocidal rhetoric from Israeli officials from day one, we are fighting human animals, etc. Um, at what point did you look at Israel's actions in Gaza and decide, yes, in my view, they are committing specific war crimes beyond a reasonable doubt with a realistic prospect of conviction. Because while Israel's defenders say you rushed these arrest warrants to distract from sexual misconduct allegations, you know that a lot of Palestinians say you took too long. You want to talk about PhDs? Why did it take, they say, why did it take you six months of an active genocide before you asked for arrest warrants?

[00:02:39]>> Because um one can't simply get a roll and B-roll and combine them into a nice package with a purple ribble ribbon and say, "Here's an application for a warrant."

[00:02:50]We have to be satisfied um that the evidence that we collect is reliable and it's authentic. we must be satisfied that it's uh it will withstand scrutiny and there are legal elements um that have to be established these technical requirements in terms of say starvation as a method of war uh internal or international armed conflict or non- international armed conflict. So the fact that both sides criticize us, I remember Richard Goldston once saying, of course it's it's crude, it's limited in many respects, but he said when you're criticized by everybody, you know you're doing the right job. Um, for victims, I understand around the world, not just in Palestine, everywhere, a day is a lifetime. If you don't know if you're going to wake up with your children next to you alive or dead, if you're going to have food, if you are listening to a baby crying because of malnutrition, they have every right to say justice delayed is justice denied. And thousands of people um you know die groups, >> I've seen them and Palestinian activists have said that you were dragging your feet on this. They think you were talking earlier about politics versus, you know, the legal. They think that and the great irony is that the United States and Israel were actually quite supportive uh of your election as ICC chief prosecutor. And so your critics on the left, your critics in the Palestinian community say he dragged his feet. He went to yes, he went to the Rafa crossing, but he wasn't able to get into Gaza. He didn't he didn't criticize Israel in the same way that he talked about October the 7th. They think you were dragged to these arrests. What do you say to them?

[00:04:22]Well, unfortunately, and you can see me, I'm not special forces. Um, I went to Rafa. Um, they wouldn't allow me in because I think uh even the an Egyptian tank had been hit uh the day before, but I was there in October and I tried to get in. Um, I went in. I was the first prosecutor to get into um Israel and Palestine. And that's really because of the victim's family, the Israeli victim's family who called on me to be allowed in and to visit the kabutsim and then to and then to go into Ramala. But um we moved at pace. I tried to be consistent with Ukraine and with other situations that I moved forward in my mandate moving at the speed of relevance um to make sure the case that we put together wasn't something that would be a sound bite with a round of applause and then we get what we saw in the ICC's history six out of six lost in uh in Kenya. It should be capable of not only um allowing warrants to be issued but to be confirmed and to >> you're saying you wanted the case to be bulletproof before you went. It has to be uh ethically and legally it should be strong and fit for purpose.

[00:05:33]>> After October the 7th, again, just on this topic before we move on, many Palestinians did begin to see you as biased towards Israel. They said so. I saw them saying so, especially after you accepted this Israeli invitation to visit kibbutums after October the 7th and you declined an invitation apparently from Palestinians to visit Israeli illegal settlements and refugee camps in the West Bank. When you did meet with Palestinians later that year, it was reported in the media that your team was only going to give Palestinian victims 10 minutes to share their stories until the attendees objected to that. In hindsight, were you actually giving Gaza, the West Bank, Palestinians the attention that they deserved at that time?

[00:06:12]>> I believe so. I I believe so.

[00:06:17]Look, one can't um and it'd be very dangerous of a prosecutor to try to win popularity contests whether people like it or loathe it. The truth of the matter is and the tragedy of humanity is that there's no monopoly of suffering.

[00:06:32]Israelis babies like Kafir Bibbas who are 10 months old should not have been taken. Uh Holocaust survivors should not have been taken. Women and children should not have been taken hostages. uh people should not have been killed and mowed down uh in their kabutsim. Um we call that out. We investigated that. Um and the same applies to Palestinians always. I would say I said it in Rafa. I said it in Israel. I said it in New York uh at the Assembly of State parties.

[00:07:00]There are thousands of innocent Israelis and thousands of innocent Palestinians whose lives have been snuff snuffed out because of blind power of vengeance. And it's not wrong to acknowledging the suffering of the other. The fact that one acknowledges the suffering of the other does not make you um complicit or failing to recognize the sorrow or the suffering of the other side. So in terms of Palestine, um I went to Israel and I was given strict um conditions about where I could go in Palestine, uh who I could meet.

[00:07:36]>> Yeah.

[00:07:37]>> Uh I complied with that because I hoped it would lead to other engagements and other opportunities, for example, to uh visit other parts of Palestine, including the West Bank. But on the West Bank specifically, the ICC opened an investigation into war crimes in Gaza and the West Bank in 2021. Your predecessor Fatu Ben Suda opened that.

[00:07:59]And when you submitted your application for arrest warrants in May of 2024, there was no mention of war crimes in the West Bank, even though 500 Palestinians, we checked, had been killed in the occupied West Bank since October 7th. at that point by May 2024.

[00:08:15]Um the violence in the West Bank is so bad now that former Israeli Prime Minister Udma is calling on the ICC to intervene against his own country. Why didn't you include the West Bank in your arrest warrant application?

[00:08:26]>> Well, the uh arrest warrants are based upon evidence, but it's not correct to say I didn't mention the West Bank. Not only did I mention it in the application of the 20th of of uh of May, even before that, I expressed alarm and grave concern at the burgeoning attacks by Israeli settlers on Palestinians. I said it repeatedly. Look at my Twitter account. Look at the ICC's Twitter account. I did it repeatedly because one uh has to note with alarm what is happening in the West Bank because the lives of the people in the West Bank are no less precious than the life of uh those Palestinians in Gaza or those Israelis in in Israel. And so it's all a function of resources and um the evidence, the available evidence and dealing with matters um as wisely as possible um with the resources we've got.

[00:09:13]>> So we did look at the application for arrest warrants and I listed some of the crimes that you accused the Israelis of and obviously Hamas also committed many crimes. I think there some people were upset that there were three Hamas commanders and two Israelis. But put that to one side. When you submitted the application for arrest warrants, you recommended charging Netanyahu and Gallant with war crimes and crimes against humanity. Big charges, big crimes, but not genocide, despite your own predecessor, former ICC chief prosecutor Luis Moreno Okampo, having already said at that point that the siege of Gaza itself is a form of genocide and article 5 of the ICC's Rome Statute uh saying you do have the jurisdiction to prosecute the crime of genocide. So why did you give Netanyahu a pass on what pretty much every expert now says is a genocide in Gaza?

[00:09:58]>> Medie, nobody's got a pass. The law applies for all. There's no statutory of limitations uh for war crimes or international crimes. That's one of the Nuremberg principles. Um, one can wait and finish an investigation and then move. Or one can do what I've tried to do in Ukraine. Uh, and what I uh, you know, we're doing in in Palestine and other situations is try to move at the speed of relevance to show victims they're not invisible, that their suffering is not meaningless. It is noted and their lives are precious. And you collect the evidence that you can get that shows um, wrongdoing. And you apply for warrants and you keep going.

[00:10:32]In in the Ukraine in the Ukraine situation for example, we applied for warrants uh of uh deportation and transfer of children for Putin, President Putin and Madame Lova Bloova, but then subsequently we applied for warrants that are public in relation to tax on the infrastructure.

[00:10:48]>> So you're not ruling out that there could be a warrant in the future?

[00:10:50]>> Everything is a function of evidence. I will not move. It would be a reckless and infor hasn't been evidence of genocide in Gaza. it would be a reckless prosecutor to move simply because of clamor. You move based upon evidence. And if you read that 20th of May uh application and if you also read the panel report, they also talk about ongoing investigations and applications. And more than that I simply can't say but um the suffering in that situation is immense. The investigation is not closed and it continues and the court the men and women of the office continue to work and we will not blink uh or be >> joc is not off limits. You haven't ruled out >> no crime is off limits if the evidence is there.

[00:11:34]>> Many would say the evidence is there.

[00:11:35]Let me put to you what the Israeli criticism is. You mentioned earlier you get criticized from all sides. I mentioned the Palestinian criticisms um about the West Bank about genocide. The Israelis of course think that you are equating them to Hamas by putting these arrest warrants out. Yo Gallant, who was defense minister at the time, accused you at the time of drawing a quote despicable parallel between Israel and Hamas, saying that the request for him and Netanyahu's arrest was an attempt to deny Israel's right to self-defense. A phrase I'm sure you've heard many times.

[00:12:04]What do you say to that argument from the Israelis?

[00:12:09]Well, I I don't get it. the argu the way it was couched repeatedly in many sections of the media including in Israel is that it's of course a false equivalence and uh I don't create the evidence. The evidence is collected and it's authenticated and it's relied upon uh if it's uh if it's truthful by experienced investigators and lawyers. Those that raise that argument in fact they don't want any action at all. Uh the evidence showed that uh these three individuals that were Hamas members engaged in conduct that was within the parameters of the Rome statute. In other words, it engaged criminal responsibility. We applied for those warrants, they were granted. The same token, the evidence showed that uh Prime Minister Netanyahu and Yov Galant uh were engaged in criminal conduct. We applied for the warrants and they were granted. The fact that they were both uh applications were at the same time is not a function of equivalence or it's a function of evidence. And if we had moved forward for applications for individuals that were members of Hamas, of course, people would say um what kind of stooges are you? You're applying for warrants for Hamas. You're too scared. You're in the pocket of this country or that country.

[00:13:25]You're not applying for warrants uh against Israeli all those thousands of Palestinian babies and women. They they mean nothing to you. what an improper person you are to be sitting in this chair. And if you uh did the converse, if you said, "Okay, you apply for warrants uh for the Israelis." People say, "Well, what beasts you are uh who took all these hostages? Who took uh who killed these people that were in their bed? Uh how terrible. You don't give uh any respect or regard for that." The truth of the matter is the evidence, the way we structured things was to investigate. The evidence matured. We gathered the evidence. We analyzed the evidence. It showed in our assessment that crimes within the court's jurisdiction had been committed. That the individuals that were subject to the application were responsible. We gave it to independent judges and they agreed with us.

[00:14:16]>> And these are major crimes.

[00:14:17]>> These are major crimes.

[00:14:18]>> Extermination, starvation, because people watching at home are going to say, well, he didn't charge them with genocide. Uh, which is obviously very controversial as you know, but you charge them, just remind us war crimes and crimes against humanity. The Israelis say by doing that they say you deprive them of their right to defend themselves. I'm sure you hear that all the time. What do you say to them?

[00:14:38]>> Well, it didn't deter certain actions from the Israelis because even after the application for warrants, um, many thousands of people died and even after the applications for warrants, hostages were being kept by Hamas individuals.

[00:14:54]So, um, I don't see the connection. The truth of the matter is whatever um the law is the law and there are elements and we have to test collect and test and analyze the evidence and we did that and the judges spoke and the judges are the ones not Kareem Khan the judges the independent judges of the ICC unanimously issued the warrants that they issued >> and for doing that they've been sanctioned by the United States you've been sanctioned by the United States not just Israel that's very upset with your warrants the United States under Joe Biden and now especially under Donald Trump are very upset with you. Um, what's interesting is that when the ICC and you uh applied for and issued arrest warrants for Vladimir Putin back in 2023, they were met with lots of praise from the US, including from US Senator Lindsey Graham, who called it quote action of an international evidence-based body that will stand the test of history. Yet just a year later, when the media began reporting that you were also preparing applications for arrest warrants against Israel, um Graham complained to you on a conference call and 12 other Republican senators threatened you in a letter writing, "Target Israel and we will target you."

[00:16:01]Were you surprised to see such a threatening bont contradictory behavior from US officials who were fine with the Putin warrants but super angry over the Netanyahu warrant?

[00:16:13]Medie, if we had a consistency of international relations, the world would not be the hell it is for so many victims and civilians that it, you know, it is at the moment. Um, unfortunately, that doesn't take me uh by surprise. Um, we see the contradictions of international politics and their approaches to situations for for decades. Um but regarding the sanctions or the you know warrants or convictions by the Russian Federation that have been entered against me and other judges um and of course not minimizing the experiences of individual they were meant to hurt these sanctions warrants were meant to threaten us and to chill but we need to focus on the victims because uh here I am in a nice studio uh people are are working at the office um if you're in Dao if If you're a Rohingya, if you're Palestinian, if you are people in so many conflicts around the world, you've got nothing. And we need to realize this isn't about us.

[00:17:12]It's about the people we're here to serve, which is to bring justice to those victims around the world.

[00:17:16]>> As you say, the great powers have their own inconsistencies. It's not just the US. Uh late last year, it was revealed that before you made the request uh for the Israeli arrest warrants, you had a call with a UK government official who threatened to defund the International Criminal Court and leave the Rome statute. This is the UK, not the US. if you moved forward with the Israeli arrest warrants, what did that moment say to you? You're a you're a Brit. What did that moment say to you about the UK government's commitment to international law, to the Rome Statute, to how the UK and other Western countries see your court?

[00:17:50]Now, I'm thinking because yes, it's been reported. Um, and it's true. So, um, I was sad.

[00:17:59]Actually, I wasn't angry. I was sad. I I'm not sure if it was UK government. It was Yes. a very senior state official representing the UK government.

[00:18:06]>> Some people say it was David Cameron, the then foreign secretary, former prime minister that's been reported also.

[00:18:10]>> Yes. So, it was it was disappointing. It was >> was it Cameron?

[00:18:13]>> It it it was David Cameron calls you and says, "We're going to defund the International Criminal Court if you go ahead with arrest warrants against Netanyahu and Gallant."

[00:18:23]>> It's a very difficult conversation. Um I think he was quite upset. But the good news is I think um without being party political about it um the UK government uh after it changed there was a recommmitment by uh Richard Hurmer the attorney general and by the Labor government to try to respect international law more than may have been the case previously. I think it's very important for the national interest of the United Kingdom, not as prosecutor ICC, but as the UK is a permanent member of the council, if it stands for anything, it must stand for international law and rules and complying and doing the right thing. And uh if the UK does the right thing, it will be good for the UK and it'll be good for the international community.

[00:19:07]And if we don't, it'll be the kiss of death for the standing of this great country.

[00:19:13]>> Liking this video? And don't just watch, hit like, share, and subscribe. and tap the bell so you never miss a video or live show. But if you want early access to exclusive content, then you have to head to zateo.com and subscribe now.

[00:19:26]You'll be supporting fearless independent journalism. Are you worried that the kiss of death, not just for the UK, but for the ICC, will come from European countries, not just the UK, France, Poland, other countries said, "Yeah, we'll we'll still have Netanyahu.

[00:19:38]He can come to our country. We won't arrest him. We'll make an exception for him." That exception for the Israeli prime minister could destroy the credibility of your court. I think it's um states have international obligation, state parties to uh cooperate with the court and to do the right thing. It's not all doom and gloom.

[00:19:57]>> Yeah.

[00:19:57]>> Because people around the world >> Yeah.

[00:20:00]>> in the shadow of Ukraine are now seeing things more clearly.

[00:20:03]>> Yes.

[00:20:04]>> They see the selectivity. They see what they perceive to be double standards that one law for them >> and one law for us. And they're not accepting it. And they're not only accepting in the global south.

[00:20:13]>> Thousands in Europe. Thousands in America are saying, >> but if Netanyahu is able to get away with it, I mean, let me just put this before we move on. Do you know of any other person indicted by the ICC who got a get out of jail free card or a kind of a pass to visit countries that are ICC members except for Benjamin Netanyahu?

[00:20:30]Do you know of anyone else?

[00:20:31]>> I think uh you know there's been uh certain things that have been said.

[00:20:36]Certain states have been held not to be in you know have breached their obligations to cooperate. President Putin went to Mongolia for so on and so forth. But I think in the end um independent judiciaries um the reason they're there is that they don't necessarily follow the dictat of the executive and these are international obligations and international judges also uh sorry domestic judges will have a say as to whether a um guarantee of non-execution of an ICC warrant will be given effect to or not. But it would be clearly extremely dangerous to answer your question. Okay.

[00:21:11]>> If one standard is applied to a political foe.

[00:21:15]>> Yeah.

[00:21:15]>> And a completely different standard um to a political ally. Um because that's the opposite of due process.

[00:21:23]>> Well said. Uh before we run out of time, let's turn to some other big ICC cases on your watch. In January 2025, you officially requested arrest warrants against the Taliban senior leaders in Afghanistan for gender-based crimes. And while Amnesty International praised you for that request for these arrest warrants against the Taliban, they also called on you to re-evaluate your 2021 decision to depprioritize US crimes committed in Afghanistan. Did you give the US a pass to use that word again?

[00:21:51]Did you give the US impunity for its alleged crimes in Afghanistan?

[00:21:54]>> No. No, I didn't. You know, I didn't uh hibernate. It goes back to this independent expert report I I spoke about and he talked about resources that you have as a prosecutor, the staff, the resources to focus. You can't focus on everything all at once because you will will get nothing and you won't show any results for the victims around the world.

[00:22:13]>> I simply was decided to be transparent.

[00:22:16]>> I generally prefer using resources for ongoing crimes than historic crimes. All things being equal, it's crude. may be subject to some refinement but generally we saw in terms of the Taliban a whole generation of girls were deni were being suffocated and women >> from rights of equal participation in society in uh based upon a contorted and false version of Islam simply because of being born women I was prioritizing that I did not hibernate >> the situation my predecessor hibernated dur for some years I simply dep prioritized and said I will focus on the Taliban. We applied for warrants in relation to certain members of the Taliban. Those warrants now are public.

[00:22:59]They were issued and um it's not closed.

[00:23:02]Those legal obligations continue.

[00:23:04]>> You mentioned Darur. Okay. So, let's talk about the civil war in Sudan that has turned into one of the world's worst humanitarian crises. Just last October, up to 10,000 people were massacred in Alfasia with another 40,000 still unaccounted for. The ICC deputy prosecutor said in January that war crimes and crimes against humanity were committed in Sudan. um which you also warned about last year before you took your voluntary leave from your post. Do you think the ICC should have issued arrest warrants for the RSF militia that is accused of being behind most of these war crimes by now? And do you think it's possible that the RSF's crimes may amount to a genocide as many people believe that they do?

[00:23:37]>> I think the situation in Darur should break any person's heart that has humanity in it. It's awful. It is sustained and it is um a nightmare revisited from the people of Dur that suffered so much uh earlier by Omar al-Bashir and the Janjuid. Um we've got to do better. I'm not going to label uh crimes at the moment, but we need to do more for the victims. They should not be forgotten. And the reality is I my first mission in September 2021 my first international travel was to Sudan because that was the severity that was the concern I had over the Sudan situation. I met Hamok and General Burhan, Prime Minister Hamdok then in in the transitional phrase and General Burhan who's the head of the Sudin armed forces and General Hmeti who's the head of the RSF and uh I said comply with law. I said ICC will step out if you step up whether it's under the Juba peace agreement whether it's African solutions to African problems. What we need to do is deal with the egregious violations that have been inflicted on the Darur race. And I think we've got to make sure that there's not a a blind spot, a law-free zone that is carved out in Sudan or in Darur. We have jurisdiction in Darur and we need to make sure that the victims see and feel justice uh without more delay. You mentioned African solutions for African problems. Some of your critics say that there is a bias from the ICC, but it's not against Israel. It's against countries in Africa. In fact, in 2016 when you were defending now Kenyan President William RTO after the ICC accused him of orchestrating ethnic violence. You yourself suggested that the ICC case was politically motivated.

[00:25:19]And I should add before the arrest war once against Israel and Hamas uh over 80% of the individuals indicted by the ICC had been African leaders. So a clear anti-Africa bias it seems from the ICC.

[00:25:32]>> Well, you're right. Before I was uh elected and I commenced my responsibility, no warrant had been issued outside the continent of Africa.

[00:25:41]And uh >> you did Putin and Netanyahu.

[00:25:44]>> Not just that. I mean we I applied for warrants in Georgia, in Ukraine, in Afghanistan, in Myanmar, uh Philippines, and of course Palestine and and Israel.

[00:25:54]Open situation an anti-Africa bias.

[00:25:57]>> Well, what I'll say is that the law needs to be seen to be of equal application everywhere.

[00:26:03]And of course, it irked many that the court seemed to be a playground for international prosecutors and lawyers in Africa as if the rest of the world was utopia. Unfortunately, our planet is not filled with wonderful leaders. There are egregious violations in many locations and we have to make sure we use our resources to value equal uh human life equally everywhere. And I think we need to both engage under complimentarity in the way that uh we've tried to do. I close situations of Georgia. we close for example Uganda opening complimentarity you know for example in in Colombia or with Guinea but also using the uh tools we've got of um accountability more fairly around the world and I think Africans deserve justice and we're engaging with African partners to ensure that there's no impunity but we're doing so in other parts of the world as well >> just on this note of Africa and the court is it true that US Senator Lindsey Graham said to you on a conference call on May the 1st 2024 quote this court, the ICC is for Africans.

[00:27:07]>> You have good, in fact, he went further.

[00:27:09]He said, uh, this court is, uh, for Africa and thugs like Putin. It is not for democracies like Israel and the United States of America.

[00:27:19]>> What did you say?

[00:27:21]Um I I listened uh to what he and some other distinguished members of the United States Senate had to say and um we were guided by the law uh in terms of what we had to do because uh all of that came in in terms of the context of him hearing that uh we may be imminently applying for warrants.

[00:27:43]The ICC also received a lot of attention back in 2023 when it issued arrest warrants for Russian President Vladimir Putin and his children rights commissioner for the war crimes of unlawful deportation, the transfer of Ukrainian children. Since then, Russia has continued to kill Ukrainian civilians and seize more of Ukrainian territory. Are there any other charges the court would consider indicting Russia on now that more than three years of war, more war has passed since those arrest warrants? A lot more crimes and mass killings carried out by Russia in that time. It's the same answer medi in relation to the answer I gave regarding Israel. We have core crimes that we can charge that we are mandated to investigate. Genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and the crime of aggression. Nobody has a free pass. The law has to be um vindicated. the rights of victims have to be vindicated and people need to see the consequences when the law is uh falls into disrepute. Uh 90 years ago, yesterday was the 90th anniversary of Gernika when Hitler at the request of Franco raised to the ground a quiet town in Basque, Spain.

[00:29:01]Nothing was left except a mighty oak tree that is still standing. And I think the test for us is to make sure that the law is not represented by an oak tree, a mighty oak tree that fills pages of text and beneath it is everything raised to the ground. We need to make sure that the oak tree of the law provides shelter to those that as we speak are terrified, are running for their lives. Yeah.

[00:29:30]>> are injured or mourning. And I think that's why we have an international criminal court and that's why we need states to support it.

[00:29:36]>> And it's an important court and the role that you play is an important role.

[00:29:39]There's a lot of pressure on you as we've discussed in this interview.

[00:29:42]Political pressure. We talked about Lindsey Graham and David Cameron and But when people look at the charges and they say, "Okay, war crimes." They look at Russia and they say, "You didn't charge him with genocide. You charged him with deportation and transfer of Ukrainian children." They look at Gaza and they say, "You say extermination, which means killing everyone, so why not charge them with genocide?" You must understand that, I believe, I checked this, correct me if I'm wrong, only one person in the history of the court has been charged with genocide, Omar Al Basher, about 15 years ago. Why are you so hesitant to apply the genocide charge? I'm not I I think people can get hung up on the legal characterization.

[00:30:21]No crime, particularly no core crime, genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, or aggression within the purview of the International Criminal Court are light. It's not speeding, you know, um down the Brmley Road or whatever.

[00:30:36]They're heavy crimes.

[00:30:37]>> Agree.

[00:30:37]>> Uh the major Nazi war criminals were charged with crimes against peace, crimes against humanity, and war crimes.

[00:30:45]Um we have the legal um uh provisions that we have the evidence that we collect um will determine what charges are preferred and those situations are active investigations and the story has not been finalized at the moment.

[00:31:05]>> A lot of people watching this around the world will roll their eyes and say it's great that he's done these warrants but what is the point of these warrants? Uh the court has Russians uh has warrants out for Russia's President Netanya Putin and Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu.

[00:31:18]Russia is still reportedly holding those Ukrainian children. The war there is not over. Israel is on track to take over Gaza, ethnically cleanse Gaza and the West Bank, annex the West Bank. What do these warrants do to stop any of that?

[00:31:31]What do they have aside from symbolic value? A lot of people, as you know, will be thinking that at home. It's not as if anyone watching this believes that you're ever going to get Vladimir Putin or Benjamin Net in the dock at the H.

[00:31:42]>> Until the court does until the court does. Nobody thought people thought it was a fool's errand when the special court for Sierra Leone uh charged uh Charles Gani Taylor when he was >> Charles Taylor Vladimir Putin too.

[00:31:55]>> People thought it was a fool's errand when a European individual like Mallosvich or Karate was charged. People thought it was a fool's errand when there was accountability in uh uh in in Rwanda or in in Cambodia. Yes, it's difficult in terms of the politics, but the law is more powerful than people think. And I always say it's not as strong as we want. Yes, I don't have we don't have an army. The law has to be enforced. The arrest warrants have to be enforced.

[00:32:21]>> We don't have an army. Yes, we don't have a police force. Uh yes, there can be threats. But the law is more powerful because it speaks to a truth. It it it goes beyond pmics based upon something solid which is evidence that has been reviewed by judges that gives it legitimacy and gives it authority.

[00:32:39]There's no statute of limitations for war crimes. Um states have international obligations and states then um >> but you on this day this afternoon we're sitting here in London. Hand on heart you believe that you will see Benjamin Netanyahu and Vladimir Putin at the H at some point in your lifetime.

[00:32:56]>> What I will say is this. I don't believe it's a fool's errand. I think you have to speak up for victims. the comfort, the importance for people that are marginalized, that very often have been treated as invisible, whether that's the Yazidis in Iraq or whether that's the Rohingya or whether that's people of Palestine or whether that's any individual um is not to be underestimated that their lives matter that they are they see that people in a distant part of the world in the H the court's still too far from from people we should be closer to where crimes are being committed and where victims are that They lives their experiences count and that what has happened to them is not okay. What has happened to them is wrong. What has happened to them constitute international aberitions.

[00:33:44]They are crimes and judges have said so that means something and it testates.

[00:33:49]There's a famous saying that you know um judges try cases and cases try judges.

[00:33:55]is by the same token um these cases, the international warrants that are issued by the independent judges of the ICC test the international community.

[00:34:05]>> They do.

[00:34:05]>> It puts into very stark relief those that talk the talk and those that walk the walk. Those that actually mean that they want a rulesbased system, a world where is governed by laws.

[00:34:16]>> Yeah.

[00:34:16]>> Or it will show that's bluff and bluster. They don't want a world governed by laws. They want a world governed by laws for their foes. I think people around the world are mature enough in villages in Africa or in Latin America or in Asia or in the Europe to see beyond that. They expect more from their leaders and in the end that will act as some kind of constraint in them simply eviscerating the meaning of international justice. That's the hope and that's the prayer. Anyway, >> these cases also test you. Uh, my last question is this. Russia has put you on a wanted list because you went after Putin. President Trump has sanctioned you and your family because you went after Netanyahu. Uh, the former head of the MSAD went out of his way to threaten your predecessor and her family for investigating Israeli war crimes. What is it like to have three of the most ruthless leaders in the world with the deadliest of intelligence agencies at their command so set on intimidating you, threatening you, trying to silence you? Do you and your family feel safe?

[00:35:21]>> I'm very lucky with uh with my family and um in terms of Russia Federation, it's not just now warrants. There's a conviction 15 years imprisonment I was convicted to in my absence. Um and yes, the sanctions are there uh as well. But I think it's really important one takes these jobs in public service not for unrandisement or for comfort but really being blessed to realize people are suffering massively and without diminishing the consequences of what family or friends feel or other individuals that have been targeted, other elected officials that have been targeted or we really should focus on people that look in this triumph of hope over expectation. I still don't get it. Their remarkable courage that they still look in different parts of the world to the ICC in a belief that this institution with a statute with states promises can mean that there's going to be more justice in the future than there is today. And I think um we should focus on those individuals because they expect that these institutions and these officials and these judges and these states behind them preaching and proclaiming that these truths we believe to be self-evident that all people are created equal. They need to feel it. Um if they don't feel it, they will no longer buy what many countries are selling, which is democracy and the rule of law. If states realize that the stakes are high, we're in a very perilous moment. And if they don't cling to the law, they will cling to nothing because the abyss is close by. I think um that spirit of service is what will save uh international justice. And um remember those that are much much less fortunate and I think that's has to be in our mind and that certainly is in the minds of the men and women of the office that work in this environment to vindicate not their egos, not power um for themselves, not politics, intraoffice politics. They're really trying to work for people that have lost everything. And I think that is why I take my hat off to them.

[00:37:30]>> Karim Khan, International Criminal Court Chief Prosecutor. Thank you for your time.

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