Daniel Dunga - From Broke to Billions? Wealth & Financial Freedom | EP 040 | Face2Face Podcast.

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-13

[00:00:05]Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Face to Face podcast.

[00:00:10]Thank you for sticking with us all the way till today and beyond hopefully. My name is Nicole Kamwendo and I am your host. And in this episode we are going to be talking about a subject that has now become of great importance and trending I should say. Money, discipline, wealth and all of the things that come with it. Joining me on this episode is Mr. Daniel Dunga himself.

[00:00:31]Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you, Nicole. You know, so for the viewers who maybe have never seen you before, they just heard the name. Who is Daniel Dunga?

[00:00:41]Well, Daniel Dunga is Daniel Dunga.

[00:00:47]That's [laughter] not saying much.

[00:00:50]Well, officially I serve as the CEO of Nico Asset Managers. So, there we manage people's money. Mhm. Personal money, private wealth money, pension funds. Mhm.

[00:01:04]In my personal capacity, I I'm just a person that believes in empowering other people Mhm. to achieve their full potential. Okay. It could be financially, it could be career-wise. I like talking to young people and helping them see what's possible. Mhm. So, I feel like my job, my official day job and what I'm passionate about as a person. Mhm. It ties in together. Ties in together.

[00:01:34]>> Okay. I'm always telling people In fact, I'm telling you that >> [laughter] >> Uh-huh.

[00:01:41]that where you are now Yeah.

[00:01:43]is a fraction of what you potentially can become. Okay. Could be money-wise, it could be professional-wise, it could be your career, it could be your your impact in the world. Mhm. So, I think I give you a balance of who I am, what I do officially and what I am as a person.

[00:02:03]Okay. Inspirational speaker on the side from what it sounds like.

[00:02:05]>> Yes. So, maybe let me let me just start off by asking you this question. Have you ever been broke?

[00:02:10]Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was born very, very poor. Okay. We grew up poor in Bangwe. There I went to Bangwe Primary School.

[00:02:19]I I've been at the bottom really for a long, long time. Mhm.

[00:02:24]So, yeah. I And I I I started off broke. Mhm. Properly broke. Mhm.

[00:02:33]So, >> I I still I'm not where I want to be, but I'm not what I used to be. Mhm. I like that. I like that. I like how you This is going to be such an interesting conversation. This is so interesting.

[00:02:42]Okay, so what early experiences shaped your relationship with money and discipline?

[00:02:48]So, like I said, you know, I was raised in Bangwe, Bangwe there. Mhm. And there I thought I was okay because I had shoes.

[00:02:59]My colleagues didn't have shoes. Mhm. Uh and I think my father really tried hard to to kind of provide what we needed. Mhm.

[00:03:09]Until I was selected to Kamuzu Academy.

[00:03:11]Okay.

[00:03:12]And I met proper rich people. Mhm.

[00:03:16]And I knew I was broke.

[00:03:18]>> [laughter] >> I was poor.

[00:03:20]Okay. Immediately and I was young. Okay.

[00:03:23]Immediately I knew that's what I want to be. Mhm.

[00:03:28]So, my relationship with money became clear at Kamuzu Academy when I saw what I didn't have. Mhm. And what other people had. Mhm. And immediately I knew Mhm. what I wanted to get. So, [snorts] how did that period influence how you started looking at money, the way you look at it today especially?

[00:03:49]I started studying people who had what I wanted. Okay.

[00:03:53]Which I didn't have. Mhm.

[00:03:55]And I started studying how did they get there? Mhm.

[00:04:00]And when I was introduced to a world of books Okay.

[00:04:05]I I I went in. I just took You soaked it all up. Yeah. Mhm. You see I would like to say to you now and maybe to your listeners as well. Mhm.

[00:04:19]When you are inside those two covers of a book and you read about successful people Mhm.

[00:04:28]you begin to live the life of what you're reading. Okay. And your imagination opens up. And immediately I knew if the world has this to offer to anyone that dares to dream Mhm. then I must go for it. But we have a lot of dreamers. We have we I do think there are a lot of people who read books and read these amazing stories, but don't do anything about it. So, how did you cross that bridge of wanting to believing you could do it, aspiring to be it and actually walking the path?

[00:04:59]That's actually that's where I started from. When I started studying people Mhm. I was studying what did they do Mhm.

[00:05:09]to get to where they got to. Mhm. And I discovered that it's small simple things that people did.

[00:05:16]Small businesses. Mhm. But the biggest thing that I discovered was to to to study how money works. Mhm.

[00:05:25]Money works in a certain way. Okay.

[00:05:27]Money works by certain principles. Mhm.

[00:05:30]And once you understand how money works simple things like consistently putting money aside, small amounts, but in a consistent manner over a long time Mhm.

[00:05:44]money grows. Okay.

[00:05:45]>> Money does grow. Mhm.

[00:05:47]But it's the discipline of being able to you know, in the religious circles people call it seed money. Mhm. Where you you you're putting it aside for purposes of allowing it to grow. And you ignore it and you pretend it's not there.

[00:06:01]You have to pretend that it's not there.

[00:06:03]>> Mhm. Because if you plant maize I'm I'm assuming you've ever planted maize. Yes.

[00:06:08]If you plant maize Mhm. and tomorrow you go and check it out to see what's doing.

[00:06:13]And then oh And then the next day you go check it out again. Mhm. No, you have to commit it to the ground. You have to believe that nature and the universe will do its part Mhm. this thing will transform right before your eyes to become something bigger than what you planted.

[00:06:30]>> [snorts] >> Now, from that discipline that you then grew, now you find yourself in a leadership position. From the outside looking in, leadership mostly looks like control. So, what does responsibility actually feel like when you're at your level of leadership, the CEO of this massive company?

[00:06:49]It actually feels the same way uh by the way you know, we we imagine things feel in a different way when we don't have them. True. When you are actually there That's so true.

[00:07:02]>> it's so normal.

[00:07:03]>> [laughter] >> Yeah. It's so normal. Mhm. Uh but you have to understand the responsibilities that are on your shoulders. Okay. You're at certain levels you're responsible just for you. Mhm. At a certain point you're responsible for another person. If you get married, you're now responsible for you. And your family.

[00:07:21]>> And your family and your children. And when you are in a leadership position, for example, at Nico Asset Managers on one side you know, I look after just over 80 people. And these are people with dreams Yeah. with ambitions.

[00:07:37]So, I have to understand Mhm.

[00:07:39]my role in people that look up to me.

[00:07:41]Mhm. And beyond that clients. We manage thousands of clients.

[00:07:46]Mhm. And beyond that, the pension funds that we manage that's money for for a whole nation.

[00:07:52]Mhm. So, you once you begin to understand the responsibilities that are on your shoulders Mhm. the people that look up to you then you begin to behave differently.

[00:08:03]Okay. So, it's not it's not your normal carefree feeling. Mhm. It's always a weight of responsibility Yeah.

[00:08:14]Uh so, you're overseeing one of the like you've like you've highlighted the largest asset portfolios in the country.

[00:08:20]How do you then now internalize the that weight that's on your shoulders of the decisions that affect people's savings and their pensions? Like you are responsible for people's futures, some would say.

[00:08:33]Yeah. So, I like to tell myself and I like to tell my colleagues at the office Mhm. that any big thing you see in the world, if you see big companies, if you see big airplanes flying Mhm.

[00:08:47]>> these things were built by people. Mhm.

[00:08:50]People like us. Mhm. The moment I know that there are thousands and thousands of people that have done bigger things than what I'm actually responsible for now Mhm. and then I tell myself I'm Okay. I can do anything. It's been done before already. So, it feels like it's a big thing, but it can be done.

[00:09:09]Only that your mindset should be do your best Mhm. your very best and do it every day. If you do your best, your very best every day you'll come out right. Mhm. Okay. I like that. You see I said inspirational >> [laughter] >> inspirational speaker on the side. Now, you are one of I like to think of it as the silent successful people in the country. Like you're not very vocal about your success and how far you've come. But for someone to manage capital at your level, people naturally assume a certain level of personal success. So, how does it feel? Just This is between you and me. Forget that there are cameras. How does it feel to see billions in your account?

[00:09:50]Oh, actually >> [laughter] >> uh there are two answers to that.

[00:09:57]>> Okay. So, the first answer is that it it actually feels normal. Because what happens is that >> you don't move from zero to a billion.

[00:10:05]Mhm. You grow to a billion. Okay. So, from one to two it feels normal. From two to four it feels normal. From four to six it feels normal. Mhm. So, by the time you get to a billion, you've been walking the journey. True. So, it feels normal. It It doesn't shock you if you if if you've seen it grow. Mhm. It's like if you plant a tree, there's no day that it shocks a big tree. Mhm. Because you you've seen it, but you really haven't seen it. But it's been growing right before your eyes, so it doesn't shock you.

[00:10:34]>> But the other side of it, when you actually see it, >> Mhm.

[00:10:39]>> [laughter] >> is that I'm sure you are on 322. That's the NBS app.

[00:10:48]>> Okay. Or more 626, the National Bank one. You know, when you receive that trans ID, Yes. Yes, that feeling. Mhm.

[00:10:55]And you know, you we rush to the end to see whether it's DR or CR.

[00:10:58]>> Mhm. Yeah. When it's CR, it means it's money coming. Do you know that rush that Yeah. It just makes you feel warm. The world is a good place.

[00:11:07]>> [laughter] >> Ah, the problems that people are complaining about don't affect me. So, that moment when you know, it doesn't matter how much it is. Your trans ID you know, Mhm.

[00:11:20]10,000, 20,000. But it just gives you a good feeling. So, imagine having that feeling Mhm.

[00:11:25]>> you know, 24/7.

[00:11:26]>> Mhm. Like all the time.

[00:11:28]>> [laughter] >> Ah, one day is one day. What? So, my point is I'm trying to make you see that, and I'm trying to say, "Hey, go for it."

[00:11:37]>> Yes. That does sound beautiful. Yeah. I like that the the picture that you've painted, that it's not something that just happens overnight. It's something that can actually be grown into reality.

[00:11:48]I like that. Now, from your perspective, what is or what does financial freedom actually mean? Cuz a lot of people I think when we think of financial freedom, we think it's just having all the zeros in the account. We think it's numbers. To you, what is financial freedom? So, financial freedom is just the feeling of I've got it under control. Whatever comes, I can deal with it. Okay. And the next level of financial freedom is whatever I want, I can do. Mhm.

[00:12:20]By the way, it's not it's not excess Okay. or living excessively.

[00:12:26]>> Mhm. That's not what financial freedom is. But financial freedom is the absence of fear that something can shock you.

[00:12:32]Mhm.

[00:12:33]>> can't deal with it. Okay. It is the It is the feeling that if it comes, I can deal with it. Mhm.

[00:12:40]And it's also the feeling that if I really want, Mhm. I can do it. Mhm. So, it's a mindset. It's not really as a matter of fact, obviously, uh, you know, you can't just believe yourself into financial freedom.

[00:12:53]It has to be backed up.

[00:12:54]>> [laughter] >> Mhm.

[00:12:55]>> It has to be backed up by availability.

[00:12:58]>> Mhm. But just that feeling of being in control, Okay. it releases your mind to actually you know, think more clearly. Mhm. So, financial freedom is is is is the space Mhm. that money can give you for you to dream even bigger and for you to to to think clearly.

[00:13:18]>> Mhm. Because there are many things you can do, Mhm. but the thing that blocks your mind is it I cannot do it because I cannot afford.

[00:13:25]Mhm. So, you can't do anything. Uh-huh.

[00:13:27]So, even if it's something that you could have done, Mhm. your mind block tells you you can't do it. Because you're thinking, "I don't have the money." Mhm. There are people that have done things when they didn't have the money, simply because they they gave themselves the freedom to to think.

[00:13:43]>> Mhm. Yeah. So, in your experience, [snorts] how much financial success is actually driven by behavior rather than knowledge?

[00:13:52]Well, I I like to work with numbers.

[00:13:54]Okay.

[00:13:59]B- ab- above 50%, 50 to 60%. Is knowledge driven? No, it's behavior.

[00:14:04]>> Is it? Okay. Explain.

[00:14:07]>> Explain.

[00:14:08]You see, people do things even before they fully grasp what it is they are doing, but their gut feeling tells them, "I'm doing the right thing." Mhm. They will only discover I've got a lot of clients today Mhm.

[00:14:23]who [snorts] say "When I looked at the value of what I have, Mhm.

[00:14:29]compared to the actions that I took years ago, I didn't realize what I was doing would create this big thing." Mhm.

[00:14:37]>> Meaning they were investing not really knowing what the outcome would be.

[00:14:42]>> Okay. [snorts] But they still had a consistent behavior. Mhm. So, knowledge is good. You need to know how money works. Mhm. But not everyone can see the future. So, you you don't always know what's going to come. Okay.

[00:14:57]You don't always know how it is going to work.

[00:14:59]>> Mhm. So, kno- knowledge is a good part of it, Mhm. but it's not a big part of it. The big part of it is behaving in the right way around what it is you want to do. If you were talking about money, Mhm.

[00:15:12]the discipline of staying consistent, the discipline of avoiding excesses, Mhm. the discipline of staying within your financial plan or your budget even when you don't know. Okay.

[00:15:27]What's going to happen?

[00:15:28]>> What's going to happen.

[00:15:28]>> Yeah. But knowledge is also powerful.

[00:15:30]Mhm. But if you have a lot of knowledge, but you don't behave >> Mhm. with the knowledge you have, >> Mhm.

[00:15:38]as a matter of fact, if you behave without knowing, Mhm.

[00:15:42]>> you can achieve bigger things. Okay.

[00:15:44]>> If you don't behave even when you know, Mhm.

[00:15:48]you >> One can survive without the other, the other cannot survive without the other.

[00:15:51]>> Exactly.

[00:15:52]>> So, what what are the most common behavioral mistakes that you've seen investors make?

[00:15:58]Investors?

[00:15:59]>> Yes, investors, especially your Okay, maybe we can't say your clients, otherwise >> [laughter] >> But what in general? Okay, you see why I said investors is because there's people, which is all of us, Yeah. No, but I mean investors specifically.

[00:16:16]Mistakes that investors make.

[00:16:18]>> Mhm.

[00:16:20]Number one is to to be in a hurry. Mhm. What do you mean by that?

[00:16:29]You you These things work with time. Mhm. Time is the greatest resource in investing.

[00:16:36]Give yourself time. So, for example, if you plant a tree, Mhm.

[00:16:41]an baobab tree, which matures over 25 years, but you want to use it in the next 5 years. You are in a hurry. It's not going to work.

[00:16:49]Okay. So, that's what I mean. You are trying to achieve something that is achievable in 5 years in 1 year.

[00:16:57]So, you you move from one place to another place, and you when you hear, "Oh, but it's growing faster there," then you try to move to you try to chase growth, and you're in a hurry. That's a big mistake.

[00:17:08]>> Yeah. Secondly, a lot of people they do not execute.

[00:17:14]They create a plan. Mhm.

[00:17:16]It's a beautiful plan. I should be guilty of that.

[00:17:19]>> [laughter] >> I'm so guilty of it. Ex- execution.

[00:17:22]The discipline to execute their plan.

[00:17:26]>> A lot A lot of people, including investors, >> Mhm.

[00:17:29]they don't have it. This is why maybe I shouldn't go there. But I can give you an example. Mhm. Uh, the way tax works or the way pension works Mhm.

[00:17:40]is that the law has created a system where they will take money from you Mhm.

[00:17:44]and put it into an investment, or they will take money from you and give it to MRA as tax. Because they don't trust you that you >> [laughter] >> Could you actually going to do something productive with your money? Exactly.

[00:17:54]>> Mhm. If the law said, "Guys, 5% of your money must go into your pension. But when we put it in your account, take 5% and go and give it to Nico Asai." We're not going to do that. We're not going to do that.

[00:18:07]>> going to do that. If the law said, "Hey, 30% of this is tax. Mhm. So, when you get paid, take 30% and go to MRA."

[00:18:15]We're not going to do that. Exactly. No.

[00:18:18]So, the law recognizes our weakness Mhm.

[00:18:20]that we don't have the discipline to execute. So, they they they create the discipline in the system. Mhm. But if you are able, if you are able to discipline yourself in that way, Mhm. you are in the 2% bracket of people that will Mhm. succeed in the world.

[00:18:40]>> Mhm. We have a three-year three-year plan. When year three, we haven't done anything >> [laughter] >> from the plan No, so so so the discipline to execute even when the vision is clear, but the discipline to do what you need to do today, Mhm.

[00:18:56]a lot of people don't have it. They could I could give you a lot of examples, but I think these two I've found that they are very very fundamental. Yeah.

[00:19:03]>> Yeah. Yeah, and they they're very relatable as well. So, now coming to your your formal role, the Nico Group has delivered really strong financial performance in recent years. So, and this is even despite what we think is standard news that the alliance are facing dire conditions and everything.

[00:19:20]So, how do you reflect on that contrast, where on one hand, Nico Group is doing so well, on the other hand, we believe that Balawi I I hear that contrast >> Mhm. where a lot of people feel the economy is hard.

[00:19:40]>> Yeah.

[00:19:41]>> tough. And then companies are posting big numbers in profits.

[00:19:50]>> It goes down to understanding.

[00:19:52]Understanding what do those guys do to make the money they are making?

[00:19:59]And the the ones that are not making money, whether it's individuals or whether it's it's other companies, what are they doing? Because we're not all doing the same thing. That's true.

[00:20:09]We are doing different things. Secondly, if you look at Nico, I mean, we've been in this business for close to 70 years.

[00:20:17]Mhm. If you look at National Bank, 100 years plus. Mhm. You know, there's a value to time. There's a value to doing something consistently.

[00:20:25]>> well ties in with that. There's value to doing something consistently over a period of 70 years. Mhm. In there, you had years where you had losses. In there, you had years where you thought this thing would close. In there, you had years where you thought this thing would collapse. In there, you had decisions to make that that only bore fruit 15 20 years later. When you put it all together, I actually think that our companies are not making the kind of money they're supposed to make. Making >> with the Oh, yeah. If you compare with the sacrifice, Mhm.

[00:20:59]>> the time, the responsibilities, the regulations that they have to comply with. Mhm. So, there's a lot that goes into producing the numbers you see. Mhm.

[00:21:10]So, understanding what it is they do, I think it's if if everybody understood Mhm.

[00:21:17]exactly what the other person is doing, we would not sit in the judgment seat saying that guy is making too much money or he doesn't deserve that money or he shouldn't buy that car. Mhm. Because you don't understand what they do. You don't know what they do.

[00:21:34]The the In any economy, even in the even in the biggest economy in the world, Mhm. America, you'll find homeless people. That's true.

[00:21:43]>> Yeah. So, you can't say because there are homeless people in America, therefore America doesn't deserve Mhm.

[00:21:49]Mhm. the economic status that it has.

[00:21:52]It it's there's always contrast, but it comes down to understanding what creates the numbers that we're seeing. Okay. So, now, do you then think that financial institutions, like yourselves for example, do you um owe it to the to the broader economy to make sure that that growth that you're experiencing translates into the rest of the economy?

[00:22:12]>> Yes, absolutely. And how so?

[00:22:15]Okay. So, talking about the the business that I do, Yes.

[00:22:21]we manage people's money. Mhm.

[00:22:24]And we are a a tightly regulated industry. Mhm.

[00:22:29]So, understanding that you need to deliver to your clients first before you deliver to yourself. You need to manage the interests of your clients and your own interest. If you check the clients of our business or even at Nico Group level, Mhm.

[00:22:52]I'll just give you an example. If you check the returns that have been delivered to clients in a year that the company has also made a lot of money, you find that those returns are uh um massive. Okay. Yes, this year returns that will be delivered to to [clears throat] Nico's clients over 200%. Wow. Two weeks ago, Nico Life paid an additional bonus, I think a six six to 12 months additional bonus to its annuitants Mhm. by saying, "Oh, we've invested well. The returns are good. Let's look again." Mhm.

[00:23:28]>> So, you let's look again to to our clients and give them an additional bonus. If you look at the services that we provide, whether it's funeral, whether it's a life insurance, whether it's pension, whether it's investment management, and then before you look at the money that we've made, look at the value that we've delivered to our clients.

[00:23:48]>> Mhm. You'll find that there's a there's a very very good balance.

[00:23:53]The thing is that the the the observers, the people who will complain are not always clients.

[00:24:00]>> Mhm. They are Of course not. [laughter] Of course not.

[00:24:03]>> They are uh with all due respect.

[00:24:06]>> Innocent bystanders.

[00:24:07]>> Uh they're innocent bystanders. Even if we say now we're we're we're donating things to our clients, it will not reach to them. Mhm. Mhm. So, they won't feel the impact. [laughter] So, if even where action has been taken, it may not reach you Mhm. because it depends on how connected you are.

[00:24:25]But yes, we have we owe it. So, that's why companies then come come in with a various corporate social responsibility initiatives to say, "Even if you're not our client, but if we build a school, have you Do you see the school block that Nico We did. Yes, I did. I hope you guys did. But yes, we saw it. Two-story building.

[00:24:43]>> Mhm. Byani. Byani. Mhm. First of its kind for a public school.

[00:24:49]>> school in Blantyre City by numbers. The biggest school in Blantyre City by [clears throat] numbers.

[00:24:54]Look, that's spreading wealth. Mhm. The people that will be educated there, if you meet them in 15 years' time, their lives would have changed. That's spreading wealth. Okay. Okay. I like that. And there are many examples, but I I I can tell that you you're limited in terms of time. If you have a lot of time, I can give you many examples.

[00:25:13]>> [laughter] >> Okay, fine. Fine. In the interest of time, we'll say that's a very good example to give. But then, how should institutions then balance profitability and long-term societal impact?

[00:25:27]Not just yourselves, but in in general. Mhm. So, number one, I think institutions need to do business responsibly. Okay. And I believe that, especially in the financial services sector, responsible business is the is the norm.

[00:25:43]Mhm. Is the is the order of the day. I'm sure you realize that financial services are tightly regulated >> Mhm. by the regulator. Mhm.

[00:25:54]>> In Malawi, that's the Reserve Bank of Malawi.

[00:25:56]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:25:58]And Reserve Bank of Malawi as a regulator represents the interests of the public.

[00:26:04]Mhm.

[00:26:05]>> So, just by just by working in that sector, already necessarily, Mhm. your interests are already balanced. We get inspected by the Reserve Bank on an ongoing basis.

[00:26:19]Our books are open.

[00:26:21]The regulator can see what we do, can walk in anytime. Mhm.

[00:26:26]Our license can be withdrawn. So, that alone Mhm.

[00:26:32]I'll it compels us Mhm.

[00:26:36]>> in a certain way, to make sure that our work is in a what we call fiduciary capacity.

[00:26:43]We are we are working for the people.

[00:26:45]Mhm. By the time we make the profit, we make the profit by serving people. Mhm.

[00:26:51]I mean, it is people's money. It is our money.

[00:26:54]>> [laughter] >> The profit is the is the money that the clients have paid us >> Mhm. And trust in your investments.

[00:27:01]Yeah. Okay.

[00:27:02]>> Does that make sense?

[00:27:03]>> Yes, it does.

[00:27:04]>> So, the profit is a result.

[00:27:06]If there are certain ways where But I really doubt where you you behave irresponsibly and you remain profitable.

[00:27:14]True. [snorts] You can't be rewarded for bad behavior.

[00:27:16]>> no. I think that's even how it works.

[00:27:17]>> I think people should be assured that the results that you see are a reward for a great job that these companies do.

[00:27:26]Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Okay. Now, coming back to the conversation about investment, right now, recent reports, based on recent reports that we've we've analyzed, but the Malawi Stock Exchange seems to be one of the best-performing markets in the world, surprisingly. But at the same time, we are the economy that's called what? The third most poor in the world at the same time. So, how do we reconcile these two realities? How does it make sense? Because to people who hear these two different reports, it's conflicting, to say the least, and it's confusing as well. So, are we seeing genuine market strength or is it just an inflated bubble?

[00:28:07]Yes, so you know, these things are deeply technical and uh one needs to understand because what you're reporting are the results. Mhm.

[00:28:18]You know, what we're seeing as the end product. But what's gone in? Mhm. Uh people need to take time to understand what has brought out this result. Okay.

[00:28:28]But I can just give you an example.

[00:28:31]I don't know, you know, it's it's a math, so we need to do some math.

[00:28:35]>> Okay. Okay. I'm not great at math, so I rely [laughter] on you.

[00:28:39]So, if you got if you're at school Mhm. and [clears throat] you you in the first term, you got 20%. Mhm.

[00:28:51]Right. The other person got 30%. Mhm.

[00:28:55]20, 30. Okay. At the next exam, you both get 50. Mhm.

[00:29:02]You realize that the other one has improved more than the other one. Yes.

[00:29:06]You do? One has improved by 30%, the one who was at 20. The other one has improved by 20%, the one who was at 30.

[00:29:11]It depends on where you're starting from. If you're starting from a low base, Aha. Okay, I see.

[00:29:16]>> you look like you've achieved more.

[00:29:18]I see. I see. So, what you're saying is our Malawi Stock Exchange looks like it's doing so well because we're coming >> from a low base. Okay. The How many Let me ask you. It's a theoretical question.

[00:29:31]>> Mhm.

[00:29:34]Okay, let's start from my good question.

[00:29:36]The population of Malawi.

[00:29:37]How many people are there in Malawi?

[00:29:39]>> We're sitting at about what, 22 million?

[00:29:40]>> 22 million.

[00:29:41]>> Yeah. Average. Out of 22 million people, how many of those people do you think actually invest on the Malawi Stock Exchange?

[00:29:48]Listen, 500,000.

[00:29:53]Listen, 100,000.

[00:29:55]No.

[00:29:57]Sure.

[00:29:58]>> [laughter] >> Okay. Exactly.

[00:30:01]There was at one time, a few years ago, we were sitting at 50,000.

[00:30:05]So, it's not a lot of people.

[00:30:07]>> It's really not. It's less than 1%.

[00:30:09]>> Exactly. In other countries, Gee.

[00:30:12]>> everyone is an investor on the stock exchange.

[00:30:16]>> Mhm.

[00:30:17]So, now, if you move from 50,000 Mhm.

[00:30:24]to 200,000 people. Mhm.

[00:30:28]Yeah, it does look like such a stark difference. Whereas somebody else is moving from 1 million to 1.1 and it's like, mhm, it's a little bit. Exactly. I get what you mean.

[00:30:35]>> Yeah, so, the Malawi Stock Exchange, the big thing is that demand is now growing. There are more and more people who are becoming aware Mhm.

[00:30:46]>> and they're coming to participate in the market. Mhm. And because the market works with demand and supply. Okay.

[00:30:54]Okay. As demand grows, >> Mhm.

[00:30:57]the market responds. Mhm. There will come a time where out of 22 million people, 10 million people are investors on the stock exchange.

[00:31:10]>> That'll be amazing. That'll be [laughter] amazing if it did. Mhm.

[00:31:14]And if the market at that time, if the market then grows from 10 million to 10.5.

[00:31:20]Mhm. The demand hasn't grown so much such that the market will not respond Mhm. in the way that it's doing now.

[00:31:27]Mhm. But these are legitimate These are legitimate results. This is actual growth. Maybe you can help us understand this because I think for a lot of people, the Malawi Stock Exchange is confusing. Like how it works is confusing because there's the impression that, okay, maybe we think of it like a regular market. It could be a Nankani Capital Tossy. Zitha.

[00:31:48]>> [gasps] [laughter] >> Is there enough supply to sustain the demand that's there? Like if I, my uncles, and everybody, and Tom, Dick, and Harry all want to invest.

[00:31:58]>> Uh and I think that's what the market needs. The market needs So, imagine Limbe Market. I'm sure you go to Limbe. Yes. Yeah.

[00:32:06]If all of us think, ah, Nankani Capital Tossy ku Limbe kuja.

[00:32:09]Zitha ku debt service. Mhm. You find the sellers have no one to buy. Okay. But the day everyone decides, oh, let's just go.

[00:32:18]Mhm. All of a sudden, the sellers have got options. They can sell to you. They can sell to that one. They All of a sudden, their prices become better. Mhm.

[00:32:27]Let's all go to the market. Mhm.

[00:32:29]>> I'm telling you today, let's all go to the market. Is there enough supply to sustain the demand? Because like how many companies are even listed? That's the other worry. Like are there enough companies listed on the stock exchange?

[00:32:40]>> So, here is the answer.

[00:32:43]When there's enough demand, and other companies can begin to see, oh, if we list >> Yeah. If we list, there's money. Mhm.

[00:32:52]The listings will be more and more. So, that's how the market grows. Mhm.

[00:32:57]So, between demand and the market, really the the thing that should grow first is the demand. Mhm.

[00:33:04]Otherwise, if we all wait for for the market to grow first, how will it grow if there's no demand?

[00:33:10]>> Okay. So, we should all go.

[00:33:12]We should all, you know, gain understanding. Mhm. And our market will become Imagine the day that our market has 50 companies. Ooh.

[00:33:22]What a beautiful day that would be.

[00:33:23]Mhm.

[00:33:24]What a beautiful day that would be.

[00:33:25]Yeah. So, I mean, for a first-time investor, let's say like myself, okay, I will I will be a first-time investor.

[00:33:30]Let's put it this way. And I want to now put my money into shares on the stock exchange.

[00:33:34]>> Mhm. What would you say is the most important thing I need to understand? Or the first thing I need to understand?

[00:33:40]The way things are now, I would say you really don't have to understand anything.

[00:33:47]Okay.

[00:33:48]>> You just have to understand that there are professionals that are out there to help you invest wisely.

[00:33:57]Mhm.

[00:33:58]And you just have to understand where you need to go. Okay. If you go to So, like the first step, if you you're a first-time investor on the Malawi Stock Exchange, you go to a broker Okay. with your money. Mhm. And just tell the broker, here's my money. I'd like to invest. They'll ask you questions. Where do you want to invest? What do you want to invest in? Why? If you're honest with them to say, you know what, actually, I don't know. I don't know. Can you just do it for me? Mhm.

[00:34:25]They'll make you sign a paper which says you've given us mandate Mhm.

[00:34:30]to invest for you. Mhm.

[00:34:32]They will invest for you profitably.

[00:34:33]They will shock you with the results they will give you.

[00:34:36]And you will not know You will not understand where the money came from.

[00:34:39]Mhm. But they've done it for you. That's why they are there. Okay.

[00:34:43]Second step is for you to now say, uh but you How do you achieve these results? I also want to know. Mhm. So that maybe I can I can get more. Mhm. Then you begin to develop knowledge, but you develop the knowledge because you're already in there. Okay.

[00:34:57]>> So, don't try to get as much knowledge as you would like to get when you're outside. So, behavior than knowledge.

[00:35:04]Uh-huh. Exactly. So, the behavior here is go to a professional and say, I don't know anything. But I've heard, does this thing really work? Is it legitimate?

[00:35:15]Are you sure I will not be arrested? I will When you are assured by a licensed firm that this thing is okay, trust them with your money and behave in a consistent manner. And let's see what they will do for you in a year, in two years' time, without you knowing.

[00:35:33]Then you can decide, okay, I want to know.

[00:35:36]You've shown me I've moved from here to here. But I now I want to know how so that if I can do more, I should. Okay.

[00:35:44]What I'm trying to tell you here is don't have a mind block of saying, I don't understand it, therefore I won't go. Okay.

[00:35:50]>> There are people who understand it, who can do it for you. Mhm. Yeah. But then I guess the other fear that we have about that approach of going to a fund manager is the worry that maybe the fund manager is making more money than I am now. Like I've given this person my money and now they're driving a fancy car. May you're telling me wait for 5 years, but you you're not driving a fancy car.

[00:36:08]>> [gasps] >> How do you respond to that? Like do you think that there's there's that problem with the the alignment between the lifestyles that we see our fund managers living versus the clients that are being told to wait 5 years for their returns?

[00:36:21]You know why I'm laughing? It's because I heard this from a from you know, someone who's supposed to know, Mhm.

[00:36:30]telling a colleague of mine to say, you know, I don't like fund managers who dress well.

[00:36:34]>> [laughter] >> Because I get it though. I get it. I get where they're coming from. Exactly. Like she said, you know, I saw I saw my fund manager at Vincent's eating lunch and I felt, hey, that's my pension money.

[00:36:48]>> They're driving a Toyota Cross when it's just released, the newly released one, and you're like, but me you told me I must wait.

[00:36:54]>> [laughter] >> Uh look, we we Maybe the best answer I can give is that we are regulated institutions and we cannot misbehave with people's money because the license that we've been given Mhm.

[00:37:10]is we are doing this work on behalf of the Reserve Bank. That's why That's what a license means. Okay. The Reserve Bank could have done this alone, but they have licensed us to say, do a good job Mhm. on behalf of the people. Mhm.

[00:37:23]If you ever felt that there's something questionable about your investment, you can always you can always go to to the complaints section at the Reserve Bank and say, can you explain to me has my fund manager done Mhm.

[00:37:39]>> thing because I gave them this. Do we have the right to do that?

[00:37:41]>> Yes, yes, yes. Any day. Okay. I gave them this. Actually, I'll go a bit legal and technical. So, we operate under what we call the Securities Act. Okay. In that Securities Act, it says clearly that we as fund managers or brokers, whatever decision we make, we must be able to demonstrate that we did it in the best interest of the client. Mhm. We must buy at the best price. Mhm. We must give the best return. Mhm. So, if anyone ever felt that Mhm.

[00:38:13]>> I did not receive the very best, Mhm. they can go to the Reserve Bank and the Reserve Bank will will look into that issue. Mhm. So, because we are aware of that, Okay. I will not take your money and and buy a suit. I can assure you that if you think my jacket is nice, Mhm. it's not anybody's money.

[00:38:30]>> [laughter] >> Okay. We have to make sure.

[00:38:34]We have to make sure cuz it does I do get people I have heard this conversation I have this conversation with people before where they're like, mhm.

[00:38:44]Put money. So, if you if you if you if you speak to an auditor or if you speak to or if you speak to whoever who has the the the power and the mandate Mhm. to open our books and see where the money is sitting. Mhm.

[00:38:59]Client's money Okay.

[00:39:01]>> is sitting on a separate balance sheet.

[00:39:03]Okay. And our company money is sitting on a separate balance sheet and these funds are never mixed. It's by law.

[00:39:10]Okay. By law, the funds must sit separate. So, it's not when you bring your pension check, we then say, oh, go and bank it so we pay salaries. Mhm. It doesn't happen. That's not how it works.

[00:39:22]>> Client's funds are never mixed by company's money by law. Okay. So, you can be assured that if people are driving nice cars and they work for a bank, Mhm. they've not taken their client's money. Okay. Yeah. Just to make sure.

[00:39:34]So, now, what about if a Malawian who wanted to invest, let's say in the New York Stock Exchange or the United Kingdom Stock Exchange or even Baba Baba, the South African stock exchange.

[00:39:44]Is that actually something people can do? Is that a possibility? Yes, yes, that's a that's a that's a possibility. I wanted to say a big possibility, but I wanted to correct myself.

[00:39:53]>> Okay.

[00:39:56]There are there are ways to doing that.

[00:39:58]So, I can speak with confidence now because Nico Asset Managers Mhm.

[00:40:03]last year, 2025, Okay. we were the first fund manager to launch what we call an offshore investment window.

[00:40:11]Okay.

[00:40:12]>> Where our clients, through us and through the partnerships that we have with the Sanlam Global, Mhm. they can invest offshore. Mhm.

[00:40:21]>> you come through Nico Asset Managers, it's very, very possible. You can invest offshore on any market. Actually, we we we we we're calling this the the global investment window, where Malawians sitting in Malawi can invest >> with Malawi kwacha?

[00:40:37]Yes. Okay.

[00:40:39]We have a caveat. Okay.

[00:40:42]What you give us is Malawi kwacha. Then we go to the bank Mhm. to ask the bank to say we want to buy stocks on the New York Stock Exchange.

[00:40:52]So, the bank has to make forex available.

[00:40:54]>> Mhm. Okay. So, in a normal forex situation, Mhm.

[00:40:59]>> this question should not even arise because the dollars would be available.

[00:41:03]So, you give us kwacha, we convert the kwacha through the bank and buy for you.

[00:41:08]So, on the other side, they'll be receiving forex, of course, but what you've invested with us is kwacha. Okay.

[00:41:14]At the moment, I everybody understands the issue with forex.

[00:41:17]>> Yes. So, we kind of have to say, "Okay, is the forex available?" And that's the question that we're answering on case-by-case basis. But yes, our clients have given us Malawi kwacha Mhm. and we've bought stocks for them on the global markets using the path that I've just said. So, okay, other than forex, are there like other barriers to this? Is there like a certain threshold of amount of money that you need to be able to invest internationally? Like you have to be, you know, putting in a good 10 million as your seed money for you to do this.

[00:41:51]Yeah, I wouldn't call it a barrier, but anyway, there are conditions >> Okay, fine. Let's use that word, conditions. That's a nice way to put it.

[00:41:58][laughter] >> I like the way they say it in South Africa, Ts and Cs apply.

[00:42:03]>> Yes. Terms and conditions. Mhm. Don't look at them as barriers, but these are conditions that should be met because a barrier is something that stops you.

[00:42:11]Okay, fair enough.

[00:42:12]>> and condition is something that you just meet. Mhm.

[00:42:16]For our investment window, the the the amount is $50,000. Okay.

[00:42:24]How much is 50,000 in kwacha? Black market or bank rate?

[00:42:27]>> [laughter] >> Okay, let's start with bank rate.

[00:42:31]I told you math is not good. Wait, let me do the math.

[00:42:33]>> [laughter] >> $50,000. Uh-huh.

[00:42:36]It depends on who you are. Okay.

[00:42:38]>> It might be a lot of money. It might not be a lot of money. Mhm. The point I want to drive at is if you're a high net worth individual, Mhm. high net worth means you've invested in Malawi up to a point you now begin to feel I've exhausted it.

[00:42:55]I've ex- you know, let me see other things. By that time, $50,000 is 2% of your portfolio. Okay. Or 1% of your One day's one day. Yeah, one day's one day.

[00:43:05]>> [laughter] >> I like the faith. Mhm.

[00:43:08]You see, when we talk about when people talk about, "No, I was flying business class and whatnot." If you're in that zone, you know, it's like, "What are you talking about? This is not something to talk about." But if you're not in that zone, it's like, "Oh, did you fly business class?" Mhm.

[00:43:26]What I'm saying is at a certain point, some things become common. Yes, they do.

[00:43:30]>> [laughter] >> Yes, they do. So, if you are a high net worth individual Mhm. and you need to invest $50,000, Mhm.

[00:43:38]by that time, you know, this is is is a common decision.

[00:43:43]>> Okay. You you now want to test other markets.

[00:43:45]>> Okay. The Ts and Cs to you are just >> The Ts and Cs are just fine print at the bottom of the page. Yeah. Okay. And Nico, I would like I can feel that you know, MONEY AND YOU >> [laughter] >> ARE YOU NOW A PROPHET?

[00:44:02]CUZ THIS SOUNDS LIKE A PROPHECY. I receive.

[00:44:05]Please keep keep keep money and you The distance is just time.

[00:44:10]The distance is just time. So, after this, you know, I'll be watching you because I can I can see. Mhm. Because when I sit close to to potential, I can feel it.

[00:44:21]Okay. And that's that's what I'm feeling now. Prophet, [laughter] I receive. The distance is just time.

[00:44:26]But then okay, fine. I receive all of this, but now I want to know what's your personal investment philosophy today?

[00:44:35]Maybe maybe you need to expand a little bit what you mean philosophy. Is it the way I think about investing? Yes, the way you think about investments now. I mean, you've grown so much, you've been through so much. You're the high net worth individuals that I was talking about. Yeah, I was about to say like Mr. Chitungu himself.

[00:44:52]What is your philosophy now? Like how you could how you think about investment in general, personally?

[00:44:58]Yes, so there are many things that you think about when you are talking investments.

[00:45:04]Mhm.

[00:45:05]Uh we we will not have the time to be able to dissect the various things, but but in general, Mhm.

[00:45:14]my philosophy is that tomorrow is coming. Okay. And it must find me prepared. Mhm.

[00:45:24]Because today I can handle today. I've got food for today. I've got a car today. Mhm. Uh so, I I know about today. Yeah. I don't know about tomorrow. Mhm. And I must always be prepared Mhm. to face tomorrow. As a matter of fact, if I leave this to Nico Asset Managers, where I work, Mhm. our our motto is invest today for tomorrow.

[00:45:47]Mhm.

[00:45:48]People and maybe your listeners should pick this point as well.

[00:45:55]There is tomorrow. Mhm.

[00:45:58]And people like to think, "Oh, tomorrow will take care of itself." Mhm. I'm here to tell you Blind faith.

[00:46:04]Yeah, I'm here to tell you that tomorrow will not take care of itself. Mhm. You have to take care of tomorrow.

[00:46:11]And that's my investment philosophy. I I I need to feel Mhm. that I'm ready for tomorrow. Mhm. And I I and I always make sure that whatever I'm doing, Mhm.

[00:46:23]>> I'm not just, you know, satisfying myself for today.

[00:46:28]Yeah.

[00:46:28]>> I don't do instant gratitude stuff. Mhm.

[00:46:31]Every decision I make, there's a big part of it that is dealing with tomorrow. Mhm. It sounds like you've got this ideology of how you balance your risk.

[00:46:43]Okay.

[00:46:43]>> Because with every with investments, there are the term like we talk about investments, but on the other hand, there's also the risk. So, has your approach to risk sort of evolved over time?

[00:46:52]Yes, it has. Okay. So, I can tell you that I I used to work in this role for the first time in another company. Mhm.

[00:47:04]2013. Mhm.

[00:47:07]2014, so that makes it Almost 12 years ago. Mhm. At that time, I knew because I had always known. Mhm. I had always known before even I joined this sector, when I was much, much younger. I had always known that I must put aside money for tomorrow. Mhm.

[00:47:28]But even when I was serving as a head of a portfolio management company, all my money was invested in what we call money market, where you know for sure that tomorrow I'll get 10% return. Okay.

[00:47:42]I never took any risk where like tomorrow >> guaranteed returns. Guaranteed returns.

[00:47:47]Okay. I only did guaranteed returns.

[00:47:49]Mhm. Until someone that reported to me, someone who was much younger than me, said, "But boss, do you know what you're missing out on?"

[00:47:58]Mhm. I said, "I don't want volatility. I don't want risk. I don't anything. I want to know that tomorrow money is coming. My my my the money that I invested, I can get it back." Mhm. He said, "No, no, take some risk because you're losing out." Mhm.

[00:48:13]So, he meant take some of your money to the stock market. Mhm.

[00:48:18]And I refused for about a year. Mhm.

[00:48:21]Until he he showed me his own portfolio to say, "Bwana, can you see?"

[00:48:26]Mhm. And that's your junior. That's my junior. Yeah.

[00:48:30]I said, "In this market?" Mhm. He said, "Yes."

[00:48:34]When I tried it, mhm I've never looked back.

[00:48:39]Okay.

[00:48:41]And this is why sometimes people get surprised. So, maybe I should take an opportunity to use your forum >> [snorts] [laughter] >> to answer this question.

[00:48:52]When people say, "Can I have some money?" And I say, "I don't have it." Mhm.

[00:48:58]They don't understand that I don't have money.

[00:49:01]The truth is that I don't have cash.

[00:49:03]Okay.

[00:49:04]Because I don't invest in cash positions. Mhm. I invest in in stock market positions. I invest in bonds. And this is not cash. These are investments, but they they they carry a higher risk. Mhm.

[00:49:20]But they also give you a much higher return. Mhm. And so, my philosophy as I said, I I take risk, obviously calculated risk. Mhm. But I take risk.

[00:49:29]But the second thing is that I've known I've studied markets in the world Mhm.

[00:49:33]over time, any market, even the most basic market, Mhm. over time. If you give any market 10 years, there's no market that will be below its its mark of 10 years ago. Mhm.

[00:49:46]There's no market anywhere in the world.

[00:49:49]>> Mhm. If including the Great Depression, the global financial crisis, the the Asian crisis, including all financial crises that have happened in the world Mhm. over 10 years stretch, there's no market that has underperformed its mark of 10 years ago.

[00:50:06]Mhm.

[00:50:07]>> Meaning if I'm giving myself a 10-year horizon, I always win. Mhm. Yeah. Okay, I like that. Now, speaking of looking ahead, as you look ahead, what gives you confidence about Malawi's economic future?

[00:50:20]Oh, Malawi's economic future. You have to study other markets Mhm. for you to know that Malawi is going upwards. It may not be going at the pace and the speed that we would like.

[00:50:34]Mhm.

[00:50:35]But it's going upwards. Mhm.

[00:50:39]Because this is how other countries have worked as well. So, I'll just give you an example. I don't know how old you are. I'm not supposed to ask you.

[00:50:45][laughter] I don't have to reveal my age on this podcast. I'm not saying today. Mhm. So, let me let me give you my example the example of myself. I told you that I grew up oh you know, in Blantyre here in the parliament.

[00:50:59]And last weekend, I went to a place called Namatapa. Okay. Uh so, that's just behind uh Mpingwe I don't know how well you know Blantyre cuz that's where we grew up. In those days, it was all bush. Mhm. And we never thought that that land was useful.

[00:51:20]Now there are mansions.

[00:51:21]>> Now there are mansions.

[00:51:22]>> There are mansions. It's like it just spread out. Namatapa has mansions.

[00:51:27]>> Mhm. Two stories, three stories.

[00:51:30]I was like I wish I knew. That time I could have gone to say this land is mine. No one was going to dispute because at that time, 20 years ago people really didn't really understand land. You could just go to a place where there was bush and claim it and say it's mine. Mhm. Do you know that would have been possible?

[00:51:48]>> Yeah, no. We had we had a similar issue with my family actually where we knew it was family land but somebody was claiming that it was theirs and luckily for us, we had a a savvy father who had kept a deed Uh-huh.

[00:52:01]>> that he had had done 30 years ago.

[00:52:02]>> There's been lots and lots [clears throat] of land in Malawi that is not papered. It doesn't have papers.

[00:52:06]People can just go in if there's no one working on it.

[00:52:09]>> it what? Custodial land? I think that's what it's called.

[00:52:12]>> I don't know but you you can call it yours. Today there are warehouses in those areas. There are factories in those Not Pemba. The way in Pemba has grown.

[00:52:21]>> Even in Lilongwe area 51.

[00:52:22]>> Exactly. Random places now.

[00:52:24]>> is that's not a country that's static.

[00:52:26]>> That's true. That's not a country that's not going upwards.

[00:52:29]>> Yeah. Just look at at how much construction is happening. Just look at the new roads. Namatapa has a tarmac. Mhm. When I I grew up there and I was like tarmac, yes.

[00:52:41]So I can tell you that I'm very very optimistic.

[00:52:45]>> Mhm. Why? Because human beings are resilient.

[00:52:48]>> Yeah.

[00:52:48]>> Human beings always fight their way up.

[00:52:51]That's true.

[00:52:51]>> Human beings don't accept that we are done. Mhm.

[00:52:56]Especially Malawians.

[00:52:57]>> Yeah. Human beings don't accept that we are done. Mhm.

[00:53:00]>> They will always find a way out. And as all of us, I mean, when I drive to Lilongwe or drive to Zomba 10 years ago, you know, you would drive if you leave a filling station in Limbe, the next one was in Zomba. Yeah, true.

[00:53:15]Now even Thyolo has a filling station.

[00:53:18]Namatapa has two filling stations.

[00:53:19]Thyolo has a filling station. That's development.

[00:53:23]But I'm not being you know, book economic here in terms of inflation is here and interest rates are here and economic growth is here. No, I'm just talking bushy economics. Mhm.

[00:53:34]People are buying >> What do we see with our eyes?

[00:53:36]>> with our eyes? Mhm. Well, there are more filling stations. There are more cars.

[00:53:40]More shopping malls.

[00:53:41]>> houses. Mhm.

[00:53:42]>> more shopping malls. It can only be better. So, I can tell you that I'm very very bullish and optimistic about what It may not be like other countries. Mhm.

[00:53:51]But in our own right, we're moving forward. I like that. I like that. Now, on a personal level, like beyond your current role, how do you think about your legacy and the long-term impact that you're having?

[00:54:03]Oh, so my legacy Mhm.

[00:54:09]Mhm. [laughter] I I like that question.

[00:54:12]But I I I used to speak to to a lot of young people in the universities Mhm.

[00:54:19]>> to just go there and say think big. You know the world is your oyster. Mhm. I I am an author. I wrote a book called Great. Mhm.

[00:54:31]It's a very good I think it's the best book in the world. Of course.

[00:54:34]>> [laughter] >> You wrote it. Why not?

[00:54:36]>> And you know what I did? Because I felt that university students could not afford and I was selling it at 8,000 kwacha at that time. Okay. Um that 2014.

[00:54:46]And I felt 20 8,000 kwacha a lot of student university students could not afford. I went to the American Embassy.

[00:54:52]Mhm. And I asked them fund the printing of this book. Mhm.

[00:54:56]Give me so much so I can print thousands and thousands of copies and let me donate these copies Mhm. to all university students. So, I went to Bunda, I went to Chancellor College, I went to College of Medicine, I went to Chancellor College, I went to Bunda.

[00:55:10]When I meet those students now Mhm.

[00:55:14]cuz this is now 10 years later. Some of them are middle managers.

[00:55:18]Some of them and they say that day Mhm.

[00:55:23]turned my fortunes around. That makes me feel good. Mhm. Where someone will say you told me I did it and now look.

[00:55:32]>> Mhm. That's my legacy where people's lives >> Actually changed.

[00:55:37]because they interacted with me. Mhm.

[00:55:40]Because my own life changed when I interacted with other people that affected my life. So, I just want to be someone that touched somebody's life in a positive way.

[00:55:50]And one of them Of course.

[00:55:52]You know, I can feel >> [laughter] >> It's going to happen. It's going to happen.

[00:55:57]>> can feel it but you have to believe it.

[00:55:59]Yes, I need to execute. Like what you said, that's my own that's the biggest thing I struggle with is execution. So, for me if I meet anyone any anyone whose life became better >> Mhm. because our paths crossed that's my biggest legacy. Okay, I like that. So, maybe a good way to close would be for let's say a young hard-working individual is watching this. They're trying to build financial stability.

[00:56:24]What mindset would you encourage them to adopt when it comes to money?

[00:56:31]So, let me give you a story a little bit.

[00:56:33]>> Yes, please.

[00:56:35]I told you I went to Kamuzu Academy at 1993.

[00:56:38]I was in form one. Mhm.

[00:56:41]And I saw rich people. Mhm. And I was poor.

[00:56:46]Mhm.

[00:56:48]But I refused to live like a poor man.

[00:56:51]Mhm.

[00:56:52]>> I lived the life of a rich man but wearing a poor person's clothes. Mhm.

[00:56:57]Cuz I didn't have clothes but I hung out with rich guys.

[00:57:00]I I So, the people that felt I was supposed to be working with them Mhm.

[00:57:08]and they saw me working with those guys.

[00:57:10]Mhm.

[00:57:11]Oh, they were angry and incensed and and they would talk and what and those that felt like they loved me, they came down.

[00:57:20]Hesh, maybe you don't know who you are.

[00:57:22]Mhm. Cuz why are you with those guys?

[00:57:25]Why are you >> [laughter] >> And I said I I know exactly who I am.

[00:57:31]But I refuse who I am. Mhm. I want to live the life of who I want to become.

[00:57:36]Mhm. I want to become rich.

[00:57:38]I will hang out with rich people now.

[00:57:40]Mhm.

[00:57:42]And that's what I would tell anyone.

[00:57:44]Okay. To not accept their circumstances Mhm. but to look [clears throat] at what they can become. Mhm. Whether they will become it or not Mhm.

[00:57:53]>> is a different question.

[00:57:55]But the mindset of accepting where you are as your reality and yet you know where you are is not where you want to be. Mhm.

[00:58:06]That's that's where That's where defeat starts. Mhm.

[00:58:10]Knowing that this is not a good place, knowing that I can be better than this but accepting if you are boss. Do you manage to do it or boss? I don't Even if you don't know how you will become a billionaire Mhm.

[00:58:20]>> just tell yourself that you are not poor. Mhm. And that one day you don't know how you don't know when but one day you will become it. It's a mindset of desiring better things. And it's a mindset of refusing Mhm. passionately Mhm. refuse to be defeated. Mhm.

[00:58:41]It sounds like oh, it's just just motivational talking. That's just >> No, but it actually sounds actionable. I I'm telling you my own story.

[00:58:49]>> Mhm. When I meet people uh especially the friends that told me but why are you there? You know, you should be with us here.

[00:59:00]Some of them say we saw it. And I said yeah, I also saw it. I refused. Mhm.

[00:59:06]I refused to accept that my current circumstances determine with the finality Mhm. that this is what I always be. Mhm.

[00:59:17]So whether you're broke whether you are at university and you have no food Mhm. whether you know, you are about to be chased out of and you do not do do not embrace despair. Mhm.

[00:59:30]Hope is the most powerful thing that you can hold.

[00:59:36]Mhm. It's bad today, but tomorrow will become better. I like that.

[00:59:40]>> Once you refuse it to accept your current reality as your final reality, you'll begin to take actions that will change your destiny. Mhm.

[00:59:50]Yeah. I like that. Mr. Dunga, thank you for joining us on this podcast to share your words of wisdom, mhm, inspiration, and actually your your honesty in answering the questions that we had for you.

[01:00:01]Well, hope to hopefully next time we're having this conversation we'll be as big as this.

[01:00:05]>> [laughter] >> I'm looking forward to What day is that day?

[01:00:08]>> it. Well, then thank you.

[01:00:10]Well, ladies and gentlemen, there you have it. I hope you've learned something from this conversation. Feel free to like, subscribe, and share this episode, and enjoy the rest of your day, and make sure you stay a Face to Face podcast subscriber. See you on the next one.