The Billion-Dollar Organizations Paying Zero Income Tax - Tom Wheelwright and Scott Hodge

本站添加: 2026-05-31

[00:00:00]So, I can't tell you how many times a client comes to me or an investor comes to me and says, "Hey, should I form a foundation or should I form a nonprofit?

[00:00:10]Because, hey, all these rich people, they have all this money in charities and they don't pay any tax." And so, today we're actually going to talk about tax-exempt status. Who gets it? Why they get it? Is it abused?

[00:00:26]Um or uh and and should something be done about the more more importantly, where does it lie in in our life? Okay?

[00:00:36]What's the importance in our life to all of these taxes tax-exempt um I wanted to call it a company.

[00:00:45]Tax-exempt organizations that are for-profit very clearly for-profit companies, but they're tax-exempt. And today we actually have the expert on this. This is what Scott does. Scott Hodge, who used to be in charge of the Tax Foundation, one of my favorite think tanks, and is now at a different uh uh think tank, really, is what you're doing. And uh but you're actually you're actually working for a charity now. So, I think this is a perfect topic for you, Scott. Um give us give us a little more of your background if you would. Yeah, thanks very much. Great to be back with you, Tom. Uh yes, uh again, I was uh president and CEO of the Tax Foundation for over 20 years and stepped away from that to write a book on tax policy, which I'd always wanted to do.

[00:01:36]Uh and then last year I came over to Arnold Ventures, which actually is not a charity. It's an LLC. So, we'll keep that between you and me. Interesting.

[00:01:46]Interesting. John and Laura Laura Arnold, who are the philanthropists that started Arnold Ventures, uh do have other types of philanthropies. They have a foundation, they have a donor advised fund, and they have other things and they're not they're not secretive about that.

[00:02:02]But actually John Arnold in particular has been very critical of the non-profit sector and things like donor advised funds in which people can put their money into and then it can stay there forever.

[00:02:15]And they never have to pay it out and it could build interest to and and earn profits by sitting in there and he doesn't think that that's quite fair.

[00:02:24]>> that on my radar but I'm going oh we should definitely talk about that because that's really the practical side of it for the average person, right?

[00:02:32]Would be a donor advised fund as opposed to you know going through the whole private foundation all that kind of stuff.

[00:02:40]But you've been very critical Scott and about how big companies and they are big companies >> [clears throat] >> don't pay taxes and because they're tax exempt. They're they're not It's not like they're really a non-profit You don't think of a credit union as a non-profit organization and yet it's a tax exempt organization. You don't I don't think anybody anymore thinks about Harvard as a non-profit organization but it's certainly a tax exempt organization. So First of all, what do you think the status is right now of tax exempt organizations and do you think that and and then we'll talk about do you think it could actually change? I mean we we actually had a bill in Congress last year we from the house and the Senate killed it.

[00:03:34]So where would have taxed the profits of non-profit but that that got killed. So so where are we right now in your opinion? Yeah, let me give you a little bit of the landscape. You know, over the last couple of decades we've seen a massive growth in the non-profit or untaxed sector And we actually have, I think, a a large loophole in the tax code that allows some of the biggest companies, the biggest brands in the United States, to avoid paying tax on their business income. And it amounts to about $2.8 trillion worth of business income that's earned by these non-profit or tax-exempt organizations. And again, we are talking about some of the biggest brands in America. Kaiser Permanente, for instance, is the largest non-profit in the United States with over $127 billion worth of revenues last year. And they didn't pay tax on about $9 billion worth of net income or or profits.

[00:04:34]The healthcare sector is the largest component of this, and they receive somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.3 trillion in total revenues that's all considered tax-exempt. And then, as you mentioned, we have credit unions.

[00:04:49]Some of these credit unions are getting so big, Tom, that they are now buying commercial banks in order to expand their business reach into commercial lending and some other things. We have insurance companies.

[00:05:04]We have brokerage firms, utilities.

[00:05:07]As you mentioned, the universities, many of these have become really big businesses. And then, speaking of big businesses in athletics, we have the NCAA, which gets over a billion dollars a year in TV revenues and ticket sales, pays zero income tax on those profits. Okay, but let let's talk about this. Okay, so they don't have shareholders getting distributions. Right.

[00:05:32]>> Right? The um nobody can sell it. So you know, the only money that can come out really is through wages, and that does get taxed. So Yeah.

[00:05:45]>> What is What is the What's What's the upside?

[00:05:53]But you know, I I'm looking at this.

[00:05:55]What's the upside for the tax exempt that I mean, they get to use money, but they have to use it for their purpose.

[00:06:04]So, what is the upside for them?

[00:06:07]Well, this is one of the inherent problems with nonprofits is because you they don't have to pay to the taxman. They don't have to pay to shareholders. So, where do those residual profits go?

[00:06:20]Well, they tend to go to a couple different places.

[00:06:23]Higher executive salaries, especially in things like hospitals. We have some of these hospital CEOs making anywhere between 10 and 15 million dollars a year.

[00:06:33]In credit unions, they're becoming more expansive. So, they're buying commercial banks. And you see this in other areas where their administrative costs tend to be much higher than than we see in the private sector who have to be much more cost conscious and and are trying to deliver a better price better product at a lower price. And they don't have to worry about such things. And especially in hospitals, one of the research there's a new research study that's coming out showing that a lot of this these residual profits go into empire building. So, these CEOs are spending more on facilities. They're expanding.

[00:07:14]They're they're buying up private practices for instance. And so, we see this sort of mission creep in these organizations where they're not behaving like nonprofits. They're behaving like commercial businesses and expanding as much as they possibly can. And here's the kicker.

[00:07:32]The prices are no less because they're no nonprofits than they we see in the for-profit world. And so, even consumers are not getting a better deal by dealing with nonprofit hospitals or credit unions or anything else.

[00:07:47]So, um Okay, let let's break this down to the two different issues. One is the taxes the government isn't collecting, but I want to talk about that separately. But, let's start with the the competition. So, basically you have credit unions competing with bank you know, banks that have to pay taxes.

[00:08:07]Your non-taxable credit unions competing with taxable banks. You're You've got non-taxable health care hospitals competing with taxable hospitals. You've got non-taxable Harvard is a good example is they do they build a lot of products and they get a lot of revenue. It tends to be royalties.

[00:08:29]Keeps it nonprofit, right? Keeps it tax-exempt and yet they're competing against entrepreneurs. So, let's start with that and talk about how you think that disrupts the competitive landscape.

[00:08:42]It does a lot and this is actually been a concern since 1909 when the first corporate income tax was enacted. And there was I've read the Senate debate over enacting the the the the first corporate income tax and there were a lot of members of Congress who were worried that by expanding this this universe of nonprofit organizations, we were going to see them compete directly with for-profit firms. And we've seen this again periodically throughout over the last 100 years as members of Congress have held hearings and occasionally they've actually removed the tax exemption for certain types of organizations like savings banks or savings and loans and building and loans and things like that where they felt that they were encroaching on the private sector and so they've removed the tax exemption for those organizations. Sadly, we haven't seen that recently. The last time we saw that was about 1997 when TIAA-CREF had its tax exemption removed and some of the Blue Cross Blue Shields also as well. But as you as we've been talking about, we have this massive expansion of large businesses competing directly with their for-profit competitors. And I think that that's really bad for our free enterprise system. You can't have a system that's truly free enterprise when half of a sector is nonprofit and doesn't pay tax and the other half of the sector does have to pay tax and has to meet its obligations as to shareholders. That's just simply not fair. And I think the only way to do this to to level the playing field is to remove the tax exemption for these big businesses and make them compete fairly and equitably with those in the in the true private sector. Okay. Now I'm I'm going to take another side of this if that's okay, Scott.

[00:10:44]Well, because um particularly with 2025 Act tax bill, um if a business reinvests its profits, it doesn't pay tax on those profits.

[00:10:56]Right. The the the the biggest the biggest challenge No, it doesn't. Oh I mean eventually it comes out to the shareholders as capital gains, but does not come out to the business as capital gains. Okay, so because that's the difference. We don't have shareholders in the nonprofits. We do, so there's nobody getting personally financially enriched through tax-exempt money in the nonprofit. I mean if if there is, hold that thought and let's talk about that.

[00:11:27]>> yeah. Well, but how so? I mean they get paid on don't they have to pay tax on their wages?

[00:11:35]Yeah, but do you want a non-profit making its CEO a millionaire?

[00:11:39]It seems that seems unseemly. But that's not my question. I I get I get that.

[00:11:43]That's that's a different policy question. Okay, my question is if if we've gone in the US to a largely um consumption based income tax. In other words, if you consume it, okay, if you consume the money or if you um uh cuz you're spending on personal stuff or if you just save it, put it aside, you get taxed on it. But if you reinvest it, even an even an average person can reinvest their earnings into real estate, oil and gas, etc. and not pay tax on that income. Okay, so a business certainly reinvests because now we've got 100% bonus depreciation, unlimited.

[00:12:29]So, a business can go build uh you know, manufacturing company can even go build a built new building right now and not pay tax and Tax Foundation has actually been very positive about >> um bonus depreciation because what it does is it frees up that money, which is what you're saying. Is that the tax-exempt organization has their money freed up by definition. They don't have to reinvest it and they don't have to reinvest it that year and it seems to me that it's more than anything a timing issue because the business has to reinvest their money in the same fiscal year or they pay tax on it. If they if they but if they did reinvest it in the same fiscal year, they wouldn't pay tax on it because it would be deductible. So, they'd get a deduction for most even most capital expenditures are deductible. Okay, so it it it seems like it's a timing issue um because from a non-profit you know, they they they can hold their money for years and not pay tax on it.

[00:13:31]Whereas a a business, they have to reinvest it right now.

[00:13:36]Um so, what other what are the other tax benefits, other than a timing issue, really, do we have in the non-profit sector that we don't have in the business sector?

[00:13:48]Well, hospitals, for instance, and universities, uh don't have to pay property taxes. So, it's not just the federal fisc that we're talking about. State and local governments are also at a loss here. And in some cases, it can be staggering. There've been a number of cases in which you've seen non-profit hospitals will purchase a for-profit hospital in a community and take that off the property tax rolls. And as a result, that poor community is out millions of dollars in property taxes.

[00:14:17]>> where where we've seen that in Arizona is with Arizona State University, now the largest university in the world.

[00:14:22]Yeah.

[00:14:22]>> And you you look around and like all all these buildings are now university property, and you're saying, "Hey, they're not paying property tax, which means that tax burden falls on the uh on on the on the local business."

[00:14:38]Because most taxes most property taxes don't fall on homeowners cuz they get a a big exemption, whereas they they do fall on the on on the businesses. Okay, so property tax, that's that's that's a good point. But let's go back to income tax. So, where in the income tax realm do you see the big disadvantage outside I The timing issue is significant, don't get me wrong. I think timing of you know, do I have to reinvest it right now? Because if I reinvest it in a new building, I'm not going to deduct that building for 39 years. So, that's a major timing issue. That's a major capital expenditure, which is why somebody like a Walgreens will build their building, sell it to a an investor and lease it back, right?

[00:15:22]Because they don't want their capital uh um held up, but they're still going to have to pay tax on, you know, on the income that they earned in order to be able to buy that building. So, um but other than that timing, what do you see as the as the competitive disadvantage?

[00:15:39]Well, again, getting back to hospitals and and um and universities, they're able to use tax-free municipal bonds to do the kind of expansion that uh a Walgreens or a big company would have to borrow in in the for-profit >> costs. And that can be huge. And what we're seeing what we're seeing that is most troubling is a lot of arbitrage of these interest rates. So, Harvard or any other big uh university is making 10 to 15% on its endowments. However, what we see from the data is that they're only paying out about 5%. So, they're making a spread there. Then they go into Then they go into the capital market and say or they go to their their state government and say, "We need some municipal bonds." And they get to borrow at 5%. And yet they're making 10% on on their their investments.

[00:16:29]>> Interesting. That's wrong.

[00:16:31]>> [laughter] >> Well, so you're saying that you end up with a market distortion.

[00:16:35]Oh, yeah, absolutely. And they're taking advantage of this because, "Hey, we're nonprofits. We have, you know, we can't pay those exorbitant interest rates. And so we get to take advantage of these tax-free municipal bonds." And that's just I think it's just simply wrong to be able to arbitrage that. And especially when they're not paying out on behalf of their students like they claim they are.

[00:16:57]Yeah, it's interesting. We have We have minor league baseball. They pay tax. But um minor league football does not because minor league football is called college football. Oh, oh, oh, no, but the athletes have to pay income tax on their on their IRA their their uh their earnings, but the university and the NCAA doesn't have to pay tax on its billion dollars worth of earnings. So, there's an an equity here. And why is it that the athletes have to pay tax on their income, but the the universities or the athletic departments or these big conferences, they don't pay tax either.

[00:17:39]So, the whole system is off kilter here and I think that the playing field has to be leveled or we're going to continue to see this level of inequity.

[00:17:49]>> Interesting.

[00:17:50]Um okay, it it it's it's interesting.

[00:17:53]I'm I'm looking at both sides here because I'm going, "Okay, on the one hand though, the athletes are spending their money.

[00:18:00]They're not reinvesting that money, whereas the university is reinvesting the money. So, it's it's it it is a is it a question it's I mean, because what that would then say is, "Well, it's unfair." And and by the way, this is a big argument going on right now, "It's unfair that rich people can reinvest their money and not pay tax on that money, where you know, the the the poor or the middle class, they're spending all their money, so they're paying tax on it." Okay, so that that would be that same argument.

[00:18:32]I'm going, "Yeah, but that reinvestment does it do good?" And I think that's part of the question here. The question is, "Okay, how good is it to make these universities massive or to make these hospitals systems massive or to make, you know, are is it really public good?

[00:18:51]And if it is, then maybe the tax bills should also be tax exempt, right? So, I think that's what I'm hearing from you is, "Hey, look, you know, make it the same. Whichever you're going to do, make it the same."

[00:19:03]But if we can't, let's shift for a second to the donor advised fund because you you comment attention on that Um, because I've used donor advised funds. I have clients that have used donor advised funds. Sure. First of all, explain what a donor advised fund is.

[00:19:20]Yeah, it's it's basically a collection of individuals or an organization that is set up a essentially a 501c3 not-for-profit. You get to donate to that.

[00:19:32]And you get the write-off immediately on your tax for that donation. But that money stays in that pool, gets to earn interest, and then you can go to that organization say, "I would like this amount, $100 from my fund to go to this particular charity." Now, those funds could stay in that donor advised fund for a very long time. And you know, there are a lot of big ones out there, Fidelity and so forth, all have some very very large donor advised funds, but then so do a lot of wealthy individuals.

[00:20:04]And the trouble or the the the reason that many people been critical of them is because there's no requirement to pay out from a donor advised fund as you would with a private foundation. Right, but Private foundations There are there are two differences. But where's the enrichment to the donor? I I don't see it. Yeah, no, there there isn't really because I mean, because if the donor let let's say for example, okay, so I know that one of the advantages of a donor advised fund is you can donate non-traditional assets. So you don't have to donate cash, you don't have to donate um, you [clears throat] know, stocks and bonds, things that are easily sold. You could actually donate an interest in a limited partnership. You could You could donate um, uh, uh, gold and silver bullion, which a lot of charities probably wouldn't take, okay?

[00:20:56]But there's a lot of things you donate.

[00:20:57]And let's say you donate an interest in in a limited partnership, you don't have to donate all of it, you can donate part of it, okay?

[00:21:04]But the IRS has been pretty clear that you don't get then to borrow from that donor advised fund. That That That's not okay. They've been very clear on that.

[00:21:14]So, I I'm trying to understand where's the enrichment to the donor? Yeah. Here.

[00:21:19]In that case, there isn't. And unlike foundations where we you know, with people have been critical about it foundations that they set up a million-dollar foundation. They're They They make their kids um employees of the foundation and then they pay their kids and enrich their kids with the foundation money.

[00:21:39]>> do that in a business. I mean, I can employ my kids in my business.

[00:21:42]>> but you first got the you first got the deduction for making the foundation. So, but with donor advised funds, there isn't any of that.

[00:21:49]There's no personal enurement that comes from putting your money in there and it just simply is a timing issue and I I get to get the the tax deduction now and make a decision later on where I'd like those funds to go.

[00:22:03]>> Which is which is what I like about them.

[00:22:05]Frankly. I mean, I'm going I'm going Let Let's say or maybe I want to split it.

[00:22:09]I'll I'll tell you one other advantage I see of the donor advised fund.

[00:22:13]It's very tough to give a large donation to a charity anonymously.

[00:22:18]Right. But with the donor advised fund, you can always be anonymous. Correct.

[00:22:21]Yes. Yeah. And if you don't want that that charity coming after you and calling you every day, it's best to do it anonymously, okay? They are relentless. Um so, >> As As someone who used to run a nonprofit, that's what I Right? for 11 Right, you know. I mean, you know, somebody donated all. If they donate it once, they'll donate again. It's not a business. If we can If we can get somebody to pay us $10, they might pay us $100, right?

[00:22:47]>> Right. Yes. That's That's That's normal commerce.

[00:22:50]Um so, what other issues are you seeing?

[00:22:54]Uh What What abuses do you see in the um tax-exempt area? Because there must be I mean, this is ripe for abuse because non-taxable where people are taking benefits. I mean for example, let's say the the foundation has a private plane and you go to Africa to you know to help you know needy children but you're there's no you're getting that right for free and you get to go to Africa, right? Or wherever you want to go. How much of that are you seeing?

[00:23:29]Well, not as much as you think or at least I haven't seen a lot of public exposés on those kind of things.

[00:23:39]Most of what we're seeing is in these big businesses especially in the hospital sector, universities, the abuse is there. The other thing I I do have to say though from a tax nerd's perspective, one of the troubling aspects of this is that much of this is what we call double non-tax income. And what does that mean?

[00:23:59]That means that if I give funds to a an endowment or to to a DAF then I get to deduct those funds from my taxes. Now, the endowment goes out and takes that tax deductible income, invests it and makes tax-free income. So that's two layers of of income that has gone untaxed. That's a problem from a public policy standpoint and from a a fiscal responsibility for the federal government. It also makes the the playing field even more unlevel. So you and I if if we put money in the stock market and even if we hold on to that for a long you know five years, we still have to pay a 20 21% capital gains tax on that but if Harvard does that, they pay zero. And that's just simply wrong.

[00:24:52]Now some of these foundations now do have to pay a small amount on their on their net income from those investments, like a private foundation has to do. Uh Congress was trying to do this with universities. Uh they did this in in 2017. They enacted a small tax on the largest of these uh university endowments. But, last year when they passed this what we call the OB3, um they watered that down. So, now instead of hitting the top 50 it uh university endowments, it's only hitting about 25 now. And and I think it ought to be universal on all of these big endowments because they're basically hedge funds.

[00:25:35]And they're getting away with investing tax-deductible uh money and making uh tax-free income from that. And I just think that that's wrong uh for both the tax and the >> to figure out who's responsible. I'm still trying to figure out who gets enriched by that.

[00:25:52]Well, the universities. I I mean individually?

[00:25:57]But, you know, um I And because it comes down to people, right? It always comes down to people.

[00:26:04]And and if it cuz if I if if we have a for-profit company who's getting rich? Well, the shareholders getting rich. That's really who's getting rich there. Okay? We don't have shareholders. So, so we don't have those people getting enriched in in the in the in the tax-exempt organization.

[00:26:23]Um from a capital growth, I you know, I would think the tax foundation, they're they're pretty they they've been pretty bold in saying, "Look, all capital invested should be deductible from from the standpoint that if I'm investing in new new property, I'm investing in new equipment." Doesn't matter what I'm investing in, not just equipment, but I had if I build a new building, that ought to be tax-deductible because otherwise there's a distortion. The distortion is in the depreciation, the length of the depreciation, not not in um that it's that income's not over a long period of time, it's not taxable, but there's a distortion in the timing of it. And so, what you end up is you end up with less capital in the market, which would be the tax-exempt organization's argument, "Look, we can build more hospitals. We can have more beds because we have that capital available to us." How do you how how do you What what's your argument about that? No, it's and and other academics have pointed out this.

[00:27:29]With now with full expensing for companies, we are closer to having these two entities being similar. The the the the the the the the problem is in the incentive structure and how what types of inves- as the those those profits go into, but also whether or not those investments have to actually lead to one, a better product at a lower price.

[00:27:52]And we don't see that in the nonprofit sector as much as we would think. And you would think again, if you don't have to pay the taxman, you don't have to pay shareholders, where is where are those savings going? You would think that they would go into a better product at a lower price. And we certainly don't see that.

[00:28:11]>> They they actually they actually create inefficiencies because if if if you don't have to pay that tax, you don't have you you don't have the same drive to efficiency, right? That you would in a taxable business.

[00:28:25]Um I I think that is a I think that's a fair comment. Yeah, and boards of directors of nonprofits don't tend to have the same level of oversight and scrutiny that we see boards of directors in private companies or public companies. And certainly with shareholders looking over your shoulder all the time, public CEOs are much more mindful of of dollars and cents and trying to get the most out of their their their business. And in the nonprofit world, it's it's not that big a deal, right? And so you do see a lot more overhead. You see a lot more administrative costs and it's just not the the market pressures are not there, so you don't get the same level of efficiencies. And it's it's nonprofit for a reason. It it seems to me like the biggest argument is it's you've just taken away the free market.

[00:29:17]Yes. Yes. To a large extent. You you you lose the pressure of the of the free market. I I I I I get. I get there there is a reduction in the pressure of the pressure of the uh of the free market. So if you were talking to, which you are right now, talking to business owners and investors, what are you telling them? I mean, I they're not going to change things in Congress. So what are you telling them that they ought to be doing?

[00:29:43]Well, no, we do we do need to have a change. Look, the US government's running a $2 a year deficit.

[00:29:51]And social security and Medicare are going to go bankrupt in about eight or nine years. So there is a lot of pressure for new revenues and and I think what's needed is to be able to expand the tax base to include all of this business income of the nonprofits. It's it's the smartest and most economically efficient way of raising as much as 50 to 60 billion dollars with the new revenues each year that can go toward deficit reduction or smarter tax policy without raising other people's taxes and it's simply broadening the tax base that's already there. So so are those the numbers that that you guys have run?

[00:30:31]It's it's in that 50 to 60 billion dollars Yeah, right. The last number I ran was 51 million. This is not taxing the donations. This is taxing the earnings.

[00:30:41]Earned income, yes, only. Right. It's the It's the earnings. I I want to be really clear. You're not suggesting that a donation to to your public charity should be taxable to the public charity. You're suggesting or or not deductible to the individual. You're suggesting it's just the earnings on that. It's a It's It It It It and the It is a distortion in the market is is what I'm hearing you say.

[00:31:10]Yes, and and this has been a distortion that we've recognized in public policy for over 100 years and Congress has done little things to try to address it, but never enough. And so it's gotten out of hand and it's time that they rein in this nonprofit business sector and make it as taxable as as as other businesses.

[00:31:31]And you can do it in a way that protects charitable deductions. It and charitable contributions. And you can do it in a way that that protects the most benevolent and altruistic organizations without harming them. We're simply going after the ones that are masquerading as as as nonprofits, but are really big businesses in disguise.

[00:31:56]Interesting. All right. We have been with Scott Hodge. Our topic has been tax-exempt organizations. Should they be taxed? Should they be taxed? I'll let you guys everybody make up your own minds about what you think and but this is a topic I just think I mean you're right, Scott. The one thing it does do is it takes money out of the fisc, right? So it is 50 to 60 billion dollars that if it's not coming from there, where's it coming from? It's either coming from the taxpayer or it's coming from deficits, right? And so if if you don't want to come in from the taxpayer, you don't want to come in from deficits, you're looking for money, maybe this is one place to go, not just raising rates on on people or like eliminating the capital gains tax benefit, which I think would be awful.

[00:32:47]But, you know, this is another option here. So, just keep it in mind, recognize that it's not just I I think this is great, Scott, that you mentioned. It's not just federal, but you're also talking about local because you're talking about the the tax-exempt bonds. You're talking about property tax, you're talking about other things, and and and just recognize and as a business owner, recognize you are competing.

[00:33:12]Right? You're competing with somebody who doesn't have to pay tax, and that is a reality, okay? And so, it it should make it You would think it'd make it more difficult to compete, but it's so interesting you say, but it doesn't it hasn't brought down prices. So, it doesn't seem like it's made it It's not had the impact that you might think it might have. It's simply a loophole, and too many of these big businesses are taking advantage of it, and it's tightened Time to get rid of the loophole. All right. Thank you very much, Scott. Thanks, everybody, for watching the WealthAbility Show. And remember, when we get an understanding of what's going on, you know, we have some some really good thoughts on what a donor advised fund is. When we understand this, we're going to end up in the long run making more money and paying less tax.

[00:33:57]See you next time on the WealthAbility Show.

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