This video presents a debate on British politics, focusing on the division between Reform UK and Restore UK, the impact of mass immigration on British society, and the need for right-wing unity to prevent another 5 years of left-wing government. The discussion covers topics including the BBC license fee, youth unemployment, judicial decisions, and the strategic importance of tactical voting in the Wakefield by-election.
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Mark Dolan in for Julia Hartley-Brewer | 25-May-26Added:
Across the UK on DAB+ on YouTube on your mobile and on your side.
This is Talk.
2 minutes past 10:00 talk in the afternoon. Lovely to be with you in THE MORNING. WHAT TIME IS IT? LOVELY. WHAT A START. OH my goodness. 10:02. It is mid-morning. Mark Dolan in for the wonderful Julia Hartley-Brewer. And have we got a packed show for you today? Let me tell you, we're going to talk about the economy. Long-term unemployment hits a decade high with open borders, sky-high energy, and the highest youth unemployment in Europe. Is this the worst government in 100 years?
Meanwhile, some good news on this sunny Monday is a peace deal in the offing in the Middle East. And has Donald Trump been proved right in his efforts to disarm the Iranian regime? Also this morning, we're going to talk about the right being very, very split. Look at Makerfield. And of course, it's a battle between Reform and Labour, but it would appear that support for Restore, Rupert Lowe's insurgent party of the right, may well gift Andy Burnham a return to the House of Commons. Do the right need to unite? And what about this? The Prime Minister Keir Starmer has described a case in which three teenage boys were spared custodial sentences over the rape of two girls as appalling. A simple question this morning, is British justice dead?
And what about the BBC? Who are now using bailiffs to get money out of cash-strapped Brits? Is it time to get rid of the hated TV tax? Now, my phone number is 0344 499 1000. Kieran is taking your calls. The brilliant Mark Gale is our engineer today. Ted's producing and directing our TV output, Neha, so you can hear the show on DAB plus in app and online, but you can also watch us. Just head to YouTube, search talk, and up we pop. If you do that, you will see the elegantly dressed and always wise Rafe Haydel-Mancoo, senior fellow at the New Culture Forum, broadcaster, and journalist. Good morning. Happy Bank Holiday Monday. I had to recalibrate and work out what time of the day it is. I blame the heat.
Yes, I know it's a It's a scorcher, as your one of the sister publications of this building used to like to tell everybody, but we here at the news building have a glorious view over the river with the domes and towers of the of the city shining and glistening. So, actually, I don't mind being here today.
Well, it's lovely to have you in the studio, and the BBC are now using bailiffs to get money out of cash-strapped Brits. Is it time to axe this hated TV axe uh TV tax?
>> Yes. You know, for years I was one of the only people on the conservative right to actually defend the need to have something like the BBC funded by the state in a reduced form cuz I said, you know, the BBC cover royal events, state events, national events, things that actually bring the nation together. It's one of the It's the only organization in the world media-wise which provides that useful way for the nation to actually share in these shared moments. But, increasingly, of course, they've lost the boat race. They no longer have the grand national um their royal events you could say if it's a cheer rate or with vox pops and so forth. So, increasingly, they don't serve even that function any longer. Uh I want a BBC ideally that does that covers things nobody else covers, you know, the brass bands of the north of England, all those things that, you know, aren't commercially viable, have an important part to play in British life and educating the country about some of our wonderful history and traditions and so forth, but they have long ceased to do that. Now, they denigrate our culture as well. So, even me who's actually defended it now thinks the license fee is indefensible, particularly of course when we live in an era now where there are so many taxes and we speak about things like the the winter fuel allowance U-turn and so forth. I would say this actually has to be another way in which you help the pensioners and the elderly because they are the only ones left who watch the BBC are people who are pensioners and they're not being served by it because pensioners are the least woke people in the country and yet they are forced to sit through their favorite soap operas that used to be so much fun like Coronation Street or well that's on ITV, isn't it? But EastEnders I remember after the news at 1:00 there used to be Doctors which I used to watch cuz it ran off after the news and suddenly everybody on there was disabled, was a was a lesbian, was going through some sort of moral crisis about about the far right and I thought is this the demographic you're trying to appeal to after they've had their lunch on the on the Monday afternoon? I know and this obsession with young presenters there's this idea that if you're going to get young viewers and listeners you need young talent. I don't think it's true.
Look at Ken Bruce he had the biggest radio show not just in the UK but the whole of Europe and they ran his contract down. Steve Wright in the afternoon died of a broken heart because of his treatment by the BBC and it shows a complete contempt for the audience getting rid of these legends. It's an absolute contempt and it's a failure to actually KYC, know your clients, know exactly what the audience want. You know they the customer is always right.
>> where you were going with KYC.
Not KYC.
>> That wasn't Can I just straighten you out here? I know we've had a drink but it's a family show and I don't know why you've had to bring up KY ointment but that's fine.
But but the issue is when we once we get around your your skin issues.
The the broader point of course we had the issue of sport what was that sports match which has gone now fronted by some black lady they're getting rid of it on Oh yes it's it's called it was it's a big big sports show and it been axed after about 30 or 40 years and they couldn't explain they couldn't understand all the all those people being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a year at the BBC couldn't realize perhaps it was that the change of focus football had lost its focus on that show they have failed to connect with their demographic and let's be honest a lot of football spectators do believe that you know they enjoy seeing a man talk about this stuff I'm afraid to say can I say that Jimmy Hill all those characters Des Lynam that's as far back as I go I haven't watched anything since then but people you know that's the reality and that's one of the reasons that you're seeing viewing figures plummet not just at the BBC but elsewhere. Most definitely and I think that I just wonder whether there are parallels with the BBC and for example the Labour Party two organizations that have abandoned their base which is ordinary working people.
Well that's precisely what's happened. I mean what's happened with the Labour Party is quite simply they have been overtaken they all if you look at the you know 1970s Labour front benches they were filled with people who had got their hands dirty in their life literally you know now they claim they greased the pole and managed to keep their hands clean back then they were down in the mines down in the pits these were former trade union leaders these are people who served in the Second World War alongside you know everybody who had come from all strata of society now we've got people who've gone to public school or they've gone to or they've gone straight to Oxford and Cambridge they've all studied PPE they've all become spads on after that we have a political class that have no business experience no trade union experience they have never been in the real world and then they wonder why of course they're so disconnected from the real working class people they're supposed to represent when of course they're much happier in the champagne socialism of Islington. Well that's right they're in the metropolitan progressive elite aren't they which is all about open borders suicidal empathy net zero a welfare culture which is rewarding you know no activity that's the issue. I used to I used to know the the daughter of the late great Malcolm Muggeridge and Great broadcaster. great cultural commentator great cultural commentator and broadcaster.
>> Nearly as good as you. And he had he had an aunt who was a dyed-in-the-wool communist. Now this was this family was very aristocratic and privileged. And today is a bank holiday. Every Labour Day bank holiday on May the 1st, she would send her butler up onto the roof to raise the red flag. Now I can sort of see people like Jeremy Corbyn's lot Okay. can start doing something similar to that as they as they have their smashed avocado. Exactly. They're now using the politics of woke identity. What happened really was they realized that the working class of this country are small C conservatives. They're patriots. Those are the people who voted for Brexit. In America, those are the working classes who voted for Trump. And they realized they're not going to be the foot soldiers of our socialist revolution cuz they've rejected all of this. So we have to use identity politics. We have to use the politics of division to do this.
That's one of the reasons you could say they flooded the nation with immigrants as well because you need a new demographic to have this victimhood grievance culture and to support this narrative. And that's why of course they're focusing on women, on homosexuals, on the disabled, on ethnic minorities. These are the ways and look many people have written about this. The book is called The Long March Through the Institutions. We've got a book out on it by by Mark Sedgwick, one of my colleagues at the New Culture Forum, about how basically minorities have become the foot soldiers for the left as the working class used to be, but the working class failed the failed the the Labour movement.
>> And what's going to be interesting is how the minorities, ethnic Brits, will likely abandon the Labour broad church project, too, in favor of the Greens, a potential independent candidate, and surprise, surprise, Reform UK. Yeah, precisely. Well, And this is what the coalition the ethnic coalition is now splintered, isn't it? And this is what happens when you have such short-term thinking. Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson, this as Peter Mandelson said, we sent out search parties looking for immigrants to come to this country. Why?
Andrew Neather, speechwriter to the Labour immigration minister, said we want to rub the right's nose in diversity. And by flooding the nation with a new demographic who tend to vote over at that point overwhelmingly for the Labour Party, 80% of ethnic minorities voted for the Labour Party, they thought, oh, in decades to come, we're going to have an inbuilt majority.
We're going to have Labour governments into the future. And of course, if you look like places like London, it's a plan that seems to have worked. But they didn't think that eventually they wouldn't need the Labour Party. They would outgrow the purpose of the Labour Party. And that's why now you're seeing the rise of the Greens, for example. And in fact, uh we had I I I spoke to a Muslim commentator who said there's now a schism in the Islamic community. The older Muslim population are still loyal to the Labour Party as they have been for decades and they're voting there.
But it's the younger and more radically Islamist element of the Muslim uh demographic that are voting for the Green Party. Why? You'll remember at the last election, everyone was talking about the independent Muslim vote, that that's where they were going to park their votes. Well, what they realized was there aren't enough Muslims yet to that for that to carry them to much success. So, they need to ally with the useful idiots, the Polenzic Iraqis, as the Soviets used to call the useful idiots on the left during the Cold War.
We need to ally with those people again, because if we combine the left white vote with our vote, we can get to power.
So, they're using the Green Party as a Trojan horse, which of course explains why you have radically conservative Muslims voting for a party run by a gay Jew. Uh there's obviously a disconnect there, but then they all forewell what's going on. And what's remarkable yet again is, are the leftists in the Green Party naive to all this, or are they willfully blind and so desperate for power that they'll ally with the devil?
Might be the latter. Now, do you remember a guy called Sir Keir Starmer, I think is how you pronounce his name?
Does he have ginger hair? I can't remember. Oh, no, that's another one, isn't it? That's another Iranian, I think. A billionaire paid for his glasses. Well, he's in the news and he's talking about this awful miscarriage of justice. He's described a case in which three teenage boys were spared custodial sentences over the rape of two girls as appalling. Now, that's fine. It's the usual hand-wringing and pearl-clutching and warm words from the Prime Minister.
But, this verdict demonstrates just how woke our judiciary are, doesn't it? Do you think that British justice is now in crisis? It is completely in crisis. I'd say it's in freefall. And of course, the public are losing their trust in the judiciary. And you know, so many of our institutions have been eroded in recent years. The judiciary is one of the things that made Britain stand stand tall globally. British justice was the gold standard against which other countries were measured.
It's no longer the case, quite clearly.
We have two-tier justice in so many areas. But, we also, of course, have examples now where actually the more thought is given to the perpetrator of these crimes than to the victim.
>> And that And that is born out of woke progressive ideology, isn't it? It's It's completely born out of. So, if you remember, when now when we were young, we had a very right-wing judiciary. And I was always reading things in the paper about some elderly judge who was telling a woman it was her fault for having a short mini skirt that she was sexually assaulted. Well, my god, have we overcorrected for all that now? Now, we've gone to the other extreme where you get this sort of rubbish coming out.
Why can't we have balance in any of this? And I'm afraid what's happened is because we have now essentially promoted quotas over over talent and meritocracy in the judiciary as we have elsewhere.
What you have are a lot of activists who have been basically put into a lot of these places. We see the same thing with immigration tribunals and immigration judges. Many of them have been actual activists for refugees in their previous life, and they've put themselves forward for these sorts of roles. So, I'm afraid, it's a much wider issue than just this case, unfortunately. And we do And also, we've had judges openly celebrating things like the defeat of the Rwanda scheme by the Conservative government. Independent judges on social media celebrating the government being defeated. Now, I believe in the independence of the judiciary. That's sacrosanct. But, when there's clear evidence of activism like that, I think judges should be fired. And I think we need to take the appointment of judges away from the appointments commission and back to the Lord Chancellor. And that's why we need to preserve jury trials because that prevents activist judges from making wrong verdicts.
>> Yes. And of course, we've had a full-scale assault on the jury system, which you know, which one of our most ancient liberties dating back 800 years to Magna Carta. With with Calamity Lammy, David Mastermind Lammy, deciding essentially that we can That rather than >> so I'll finish.
You know, but there are so many courts in this country where they actually don't have enough sitting days. And rather than increase the sitting days and increase the numbers of magistrates, it's far better apparently to do away with jury trials. Now, let's caveat that though because then of course, you have other cases. We don't know what happened in the Manchester airport case. We can't speculate on that, but it was the case that that jury didn't reach a verdict on that. Whereas of course, we can look at the video, make up our own minds. But, is it the case that there are juries in this country now, separate from that, where actually you have ethnic disparities on those juries, which means that people aren't basically being judged by a jury of their peers. We have increasing evidence from sociologists and criminologists that juries tend to favor their own ethnicity group over other ethnicity groups. We famously saw that in America with the O.J. Simpson trial. Everyone who was black in America seemingly celebrated when he got off.
Everybody who was not black thought he was guilty of that crime. And we have evidence that it's similar here in this country, even with with white communities, although they're they tend to be less of bias in other communities, but there's still been in in in group preference there, too. So, is it the case actually that you can't get a free a good jury trial as well? So, so we could be between a rock and a hard place. You can't trust the judges.
Increasingly, we have to question the juries perhaps in their makeup. Does that mean we have to have some sort of quota system on juries and ethnic makeup? Who knows? It's a complicated story for this time in the morning. If >> go with what I like it and I welcome it.
If you can't trust the jury trial system because of the failed experiment of multiculturalism, it lands us in a very dark place, doesn't it? Yes, it's very difficult to see the way out of it unless you essentially replicate society to the percentage within each jury, but that doesn't assume But the progressive left have encouraged a a tribal society.
They have been But by design, Rafe.
Yeah, they have imported by design.
>> And telling these people, not only do you not have to integrate, it's a virtue if you don't. Well, I always remember Peter Hitchens saying, now Peter Hitchens of course now famously a very conservative spokesman and writer, but of course he was an out-and-out communist. He was a Trotskyist when he was young and he said, "We wanted mass immigration not because we loved immigrants, but because we hated Britain."
>> Wow, what a line. Well, a minister has broken down in tears on live TV in the light of this awful verdict. Schoolgirl raped by two teen boys says the decision to spare them jail was like a rock straight in my face. This ought to be a wake-up moment for British justice. Yes, and I'm glad that he's shown such she's shown some emotion over this because I think we all feel like crying hearing the terrible things that happened to these young girls and of course the judge reacting as if this was somehow a youthful discretion. And he actually complimented the boys in court saying that they had behaved so well in court.
I mean, how must you feel if you were the victim to see that sort of you know, how insulting and offensive is that. So, it's good that we see some tears from him, too. But tears aren't enough. We don't want to have tears from our ministers. We want to have action.
What are they going to do about it? And actually, I would hope that this chap Jones, Darren Jones, has as many tears for all of the victims of the in quadrupling of rape and sexual assault over the last 10 years when we've seen mass immigration to this country. Remember, he was the one who said that the boats coming over the channel weren't full of young men. They were filled with women and children and then had to correct what he said. And I'm afraid we know how much more likely many of those people are to commit rape and sexual assault. Afghanis 22 times more likely to commit rape and sexual assault. I hope he's crying tears over all those victims which were completely unnecessary cuz those people should never have been in the country. Well said. What a wonderful treat to have Rafe Haydel Mancoo with us live in the studio. The BBC are now using bailiffs to get money out of cash-strapped Brits.
Is it time to get rid of the hated TV tax? Do you still watch the BBC? 0344 4991 thousand. Reform UK are going to get rid of income tax on overtime hours worked if they achieve power. Is Nigel Farage the new working class hero? 10:20 this is talk.
Hello and welcome to Down The Local, the show that goes from pub to pub across the country speaking to the punters about the subjects driving us all nuts at the moment. Treats or reads, reads or feeds, reads or my cakes. I don't really know Meghan Markle. I know Meghan Markle is from Suits, and that's about it. I don't know about anyone else, and I don't know where this is going. I have 0% beers and I talk. Rafe flying the thing is it's symptomatic of the of this desperation. Is public transport good value for money? No, it can't isn't. You really don't like speaking to people.
Across the UK on DAB Plus on YouTube on your mobile and on your side.
This is talk.
Well, good morning 10:22 Mark Dolan in for the brilliant Julia Hartley-Brewer.
Happy Bank Holiday Monday one and all.
Andrew has messaged the show. On the TV license, he says, "The BBC intransigence over the TV license reminds me of the radio license. Because of the invention of the transistor, it became impossible to track the radios all the kids were holding. Therefore, attacked the pirate radio stations. That didn't go well either. If you're just joining us, the BBC are now using bailiffs to get money out of cash-strapped Brits who don't pay the license fee. I think it's quite shocking. I think it's deeply, deeply immoral."
Uh what about this from Jane? "Good morning Marky Mark, a breath of fresh air coming from Rafe, a man with common sense. Great show." Well, the reason why Rafe is so good is because of the KYC ointment that he bathes himself in whenever he comes on talk. Uh listen, let's get to some other stories.
Migrants scramble for British citizenship ahead of crackdown. Migrants are rushing to apply for British citizenship in record numbers to avoid future restrictions on settlement rights planned by the Labour government. More than 312,000 refugees, migrant workers, and their dependents applied for citizenship in the year to March, the highest number on record and double the rate of 8 years ago. Uh this demonstrates, doesn't it, Rafe Heydel-Mankoo, why we need to crack down on our open borders policy. Yeah.
No, I mean, it's uh one of the worst situations you could possibly imagine to have such large numbers of people able to become citizens in this country. Uh the Boris wave was the greatest influx of people to this country in a thousand years. Between 2021 and 2024, we had 4.8 million people came to this country. 3.6 million of them were from not were from Africa and Asia. And as we know from previous research by the OBR and others, they are a net cost to this country from the moment they set foot on British territory, particularly when you consider their their uh dependents as well. Uh what we need to do, of course, is not only double the uh number of years you need to live in this country to have uh to have um uh citizenship. We need to treble it. We need to I'd say 15 years living in this country before you qualify for citizenship. And crucially, benefits must only be accrued by people who have citizenship. Citizenship must bring benefits. That should be the actual uh phrasing of all of this because that's going to be the deterrent. Because after as it currently stands, after just 5 years, you're entitled to social housing, you're entitled to everything on the on the on the NHS, you're entitled to benefits and everything else. And so we have this giant Ponzi scheme just waiting to, you know, and there's some forecasts saying, you know, this could cost potentially, you know, hundreds of billions of pounds over the next few years. We are broke. We Our infrastructure can't take it. But also, just think about the cultural and social cost because too much we discuss actually how the uh in in NHS and our schools and uh hospitals and others can cope with all of this. The reality is, of course, we as a people can't change any longer. We've just had, you know, the talk about the net migration figures, 100 171 141,000 a year. Ignore that. That's political spin. The real number is the gross migration figures.
>> Correct. 800,000 people have come into this country.
Uh 600 and something have left this country. And I'm afraid the people who are leaving are the brightest and the best British people and Europeans going elsewhere in Europe, going to Canada, America, Australia. And we're left with low-skilled, low-earning income in income earners. Uh for example, of the 3.6 million visas granted to this in this country in recent years, 0.8% only were doctors, 0.6% only were scientists.
We know that by the time they get to retirement age, they will have cost 150,000 pounds each. If they live to 80, they will have cost 464,000 pounds each. We cannot afford this. It's a disaster. People say Shabana Mahmood is tough. Going to 10 years is fine, but there are still routes for asylum seekers and others to fast-track that 10-year route. And even under these allegedly draconian rules that the backbench Labour MPs are appalled about, even under this system, we're going to get 1.2 million people coming here with with citizenship who are already here getting citizenship in the next few years. Forget that. No citizenship. Get rid of it in leave to remain and have citizenship after 5 years, 15 years. If Reform UK win the election, is it going to be difficult to reverse indefinite leave to remain?
Uh well, it depends what you mean by reverse. If you mean to stop it, no, it won't be difficult to stop it.
>> Revoke it. Uh to revoke it from those who've already been here, I say go for go for it. The higher you aim, you know, the closer you'll get to that target.
Let's try and see it. Um I don't If you have indefinite leave to remain and you can ever can show evidence that you've been a constructive person in society, you've contributed to the economy, you speak English fluency, you have evidence of integration into British society, then we can be more amenable. But if you're not >> we ever had that policy. The idea that we would give someone a citizenship blank check. It's quite mind-boggling.
It's common sense because people are quite right to question does holding a British passport alone mean that you're British? Well, yes, legally, if you have one of those passports, you are British.
But by what other test are you actually British? Can you show that you actually understand British culture, that you're integrated, that you that you interact with people from different cultures? We know you know many people live in segregated communities now. We're fast becoming not a United Kingdom, but a United Nations as people sort of sink into these ethno-nationalist silos. And we have Muslim enclaves, of course, which are segregated. And we know people in those communities are more than twice as likely to be sympathetic towards terror attacks, for example. So, it's in all of our interest. And no one, of course, speaks about the growing issue of white flight within the UK. So, the people are leaving the big cities as they feel more and more of a minority, and they're flooding into Cornwall, Devon, and these places. That's why property prices are rising up. And no one is talking about the self-imposed segregation. And allegedly, of course, above all of this, diversity is our greatest strength, of course.
Oh, well, that's very interesting, isn't it? You sometimes hear people say, "Import the third world. Get the third world." Is that a racist statement? I think it's a very accurate statement.
There's nothing racist about any of this. I like to say this is culturalist.
This is understanding that culture matters. So, my great policy one of one of my one of my many great policy ideas, which I would love Prime Minister Raab, able-manning What I used to say is essentially, if you are just look at the illegal immigration. If you what we should do is get rid of the United Nations Convention on Refugees completely. That was created for a post-war world where you were talking about, "What do we do with the Jews and the Eastern Europeans who can't go behind the Iron Curtain?" So, of course, we had to find a place for them. Nobody foresaw the mass movement of peoples across continents due to changes in transport and so forth. So, I say we need a new international convention that says that asylum seekers must be re-housed within their continent of origin. So, if you're fleeing Sudan, you go elsewhere in Africa. You're fleeing Vietnam, elsewhere in Asia. You're fleeing Palestine, you go elsewhere in the Middle East. You're fleeing Ukraine, you come to Europe because it's culture and it's religion that determine how successful you're going to be in integrating. This is not about race.
It's not racist. It's It's common sense fact and you'll be happier being in the culture and with the religion that is similar to yours. It works all round, especially with social conventions and traditions and things like that. And of course, you should be geographically close to where you came from because you're supposed to be here temporarily.
The Germans get this that after the catastrophe of Angela Merkel granting all those 1 million refugees access, now you only get temporary status. The idea is you go home. That's the way things should be.
How about this for our immigration policy?
Low-level, highly skilled immigration based upon the expectation of integration. Precise. And there's nothing racist about that at all. And and that sentence is the red line. And you see, for many years people said, "Oh, Canada is the most liberal, most left-leaning country in the world in the 1980s and '90s cuz of its immigration policy." No, it was choosing the very best, la creme de la creme from around the world. So, the very best Muslim doctors, the very best Indian dentists.
Whereas we here had none of that. We invited in the world's flotsam and jetsam. That's the difference.
>> right cuz I think you and I are very happy to take nurses and doctors from Nigeria, computer programmers from Singapore, and entrepreneurs from Malaysia. You know, and isn't that the point? It's not an anti-immigration position. It's if folk want to come here to this amazing country, they must be making a positive contribution, which is how any normal country functions. Yeah, I just did a documentary with an American who wanted to have lessons for America on on not following the British model. And I said, "Look at your Islamic communities. You have Well, firstly, there are as many Muslims in America as they are here, but they are professional classes, they're high levels of doctors and medicine and and science and engineering, and you don't And of course, they've And they've they've come from cultures where they don't uh where they do they do integrate far more.
They're far more likely to to intermarry than in our communities that we've brought here. So, this is not about religion, this is not about race, this is about the culture they come from and their ability to contribute to our society. And I would be saying this about any community where we got people who were a a net drain on the economy and were culturally erosive destructive.
With me in the studio, the brilliant, the magnetic, and the fabulously dressed Rafe Haydel-Mankoo, senior fellow at the New Culture Forum, broadcaster, and journalist. Well, folks, a lot more to come. We're going to have a look at this Makerfield by-election. Is Andy Burnham now a shoe-in to win that by-election, re-enter the House of Commons, and become Prime Minister? One of the big issues appears to be the threat to Reform UK of Restore and Rupert Lowe's insurgent party. So, do the right in this country need to unite to get Labour out of power? We'll be discussing that with politics legend Sir Michael Fabricant next.
>> Across the UK on DAB plus on YouTube, on your mobile and on your side.
This is talk.
10:33, you are listening to talk. It's Mark Dolan in for the brilliant Julia Hartley-Brewer for the rest of the week.
I'm going to be Ian Collins, which is an impossible task. Lovely to have your company. We've got an issue with the switchboard, but um do book your place on the show a little bit later. At the moment, it's not showing up with the calls, but we want to get you on air with a few different questions. Uh is Nigel Farage the new working-class hero of this country? And the BBC are going after cash-strapped Brits using bailiffs to get the license fee. Is it time to get rid of this hated TV tax? And but first, Nigel Farage urges voters on the right to unite behind Reform to stop Andy Burnham as the Wakefield by-election polls showed that it's a two-horse race, but it could be that Restore, of course led by Rupert Lowe, may thwart Reform's efforts to win that seat. Let's get reaction from Sir Michael Fabricant, former Conservative MP and now broadcaster and political commentator. Good morning, Sir Michael.
Good morning, Mark. And can I say for those people watching on YouTube, how great you look cuz normally I must tell people that Mark is normally wearing a three-piece suit, a a tie, and a very formal shirt. And he looks absolutely great with a crimson open-neck shirt and a lovely white jacket. Well, thank you for that appraisal. That's high praise coming from yourself given what a clothes horse you are, Michael. If you want to see the ridiculous outfits we're all wearing, head to YouTube, search Talking Up We Pop. So, Michael, so many stories to get through, including dodgy EU loos that don't work. But, can I ask you about your appraisal of the political right at the moment? Are they going to essentially help the left in Makerfield and potentially at the next election by fighting with each other?
Absolutely, yes. And, you know, there's practical examples of this. I mean, my own old constituency of Lichfield, the right absolutely outvoted Labour. But, because Reform and the Conservatives were split, I got about 16,000 votes, but Reform got 10,000 votes. It let a Labour MP in, which was the last thing that either Reform or Conservative voters wanted. And, frankly, that was how the Labour government that we currently have got elected. It was the split votes between the Conservatives and Reform. And, now we see the same thing happening again in Makerfield because you've got Restore breaking in and maybe getting 7% of the vote. That's the current estimate made by the pollsters. And, you know what?
That will mean that Andy Burnham will slip in through the middle. And, I don't think that's what either Restore, Reform, or Conservative voters want in Makerfield. Most definitely. Rafe, what do you make of this political psychodrama playing out between Nigel Farage and Rupert Lowe, who at one point were political allies? I think it's deeply unfortunate, and I can only think of how strong Reform would be in the polls if Rupert was still in was was still in the party and we hadn't had those unfortunate unfortunate scenes.
But, you know, Sir Michael is absolutely correct. Look, Andy Burnham is the only leadership candidate that the polls say has a good chance of beating Kier Starmer. If Kier Starmer goes head-to-head with Miliband, with Rayner, with Streeting, he's forecast to beat all of them. So, if you vote for if you split the vote and you allow Andy Burnham in, he's almost certain to become Prime Minister of this country, and that's what matters because if you look at the broader national polling, uh Andy Burnham on the last poll has a chance of beating the Reform. The Labour Party will certainly will come into top place after if he becomes Prime Minister. The question then is does Andy Burnham use that honeymoon period, use that bounce to call a sudden snap general election, and use his honeymoon to get some sort of majority government, which means another 5 years potentially of an even worse, even more woke and progressive government. That's a disaster for everybody. So, yes, obviously at this stage I don't think anyone's going to stand their candidates down in the Makerfield by-election, but I want all voters who are scared about Burnham and Labour getting another election to think about tactic voting tactically. Put aside your grievances about disputes between parties for this one by-election. If you're in Makerfield, just vote tactically for the person that you think is most likely to be able to defeat Burnham, and that obviously seems to be the Reform candidate in this case. Most definitely.
And chaps, I've been crunching the numbers. So, Michael and Rafe, if you look at the outcome of the last general election and the popular vote, the Conservatives achieved just shy of 7 million votes. Reform UK just over 4 million. If you combine that, it comes to almost 11 million people having voted for a right-wing party, 11 million.
Well, 9 and 1/2 million people voted Labour. So, we really ought to have a right-leaning Conservative administration. The problem we have, Michael, is divided parties on the left and the right are going to absolutely and drastically impact the outcome. It's mathematics, isn't it? It is. And you know, the Makerfield by-election is turning not so much into a by-election, but a grudge match. You've got Starmer versus Burnham. Sue Gray has now joined the field, a supporter of Burnham. You remember she was the chief of staff to Starmer in number 10, and then she was sacked by Starmer, and now she's getting her own back by backing Burnham. And you've got the private unfortunate squabble between Rupert Lowe and Nigel Farage. And Rupert Lowe, it's a grudge match again. And you could argue it's very, very selfish because the losers are not going to be those individuals.
The losers will be the United Kingdom as a consequence. And let's not make any mistake. Andy Burnham, you know, is a lovely, great guy to meet, and I've met him lots of times. But you know, there are so many things that went badly wrong during his administration of the Manchester area when he was, in fact he still is, the mayor of Manchester.
And being PM, I think he will be far, far left of Starmer. So if you think things are bad now, they're going to get far worse.
Most definitely. So Michael, tell me about dodgy EU toilets that don't work.
Well, this was a great campaign of mine because in Lichfield, there is a town called Armitage, which is not far away.
And there's some great plum There's a plum pudding pub. There's some great pubs, very, very nice in Armitage, including the Oh, I'm trying to remember the name of it. Anyway, that's not important. What is important is that in Armitage is one big factory called Armitage Shanks, or was called Armitage Shanks. It's now owned by an American group, uh Standard.
Uh or American Standard as it's known in the US. Anyway, the point is this, that in 1997 when Tony Blair got in, full of enthusiasm for the European Union, the European Union was saying that the British siphonic toilets get that word out, siphonic and not what some Labour Minister called symphonic when I actually introduced it as a debate. The siphonic toilet is slightly more expensive than the valve toilet that they have in Europe.
But in France, they reckoned at the time, back in 1997, that 400 million gallons every year, just in France alone, are wasted by water trickling out of the toilet and literally going down the pan.
And the point with the siphonic system is you need a vacuum. I'm getting very technical here.
To actually make the toilet work, which means it won't leak. It's brilliant.
But what did Tony Blair do? He allowed these European toilets in. But now we hear that the Labour government are thinking of doing a U-turn about the U-bend because they're now thinking, you know what? The Brits got it right all along, right from the very beginning. So we could be seeing a Brexit dividend, which will mean that we'll have the siphonic non-leaking toilets back again.
And incidentally, the siphonic toilet system, which is so good, was invented by no less than Thomas Crapper.
And uh I'll let you work out for yourself how he became a very famous person indeed, both in the UK and the US, and especially in Australia.
>> Most definitely, thank you for that history lesson, but I think it's important because we've had these leaky loos. They're they're as the result of obviously a policy of allowing these these Were were they Were they pitched as being more eco-friendly? What was the argument for these European lavatories, Sir Michael? The only argument, and it was just one argument, was that it was stopping Italian and French manufacturers from selling into the UK.
The European Union said that it was a barrier to trade, and that we deliberately had the syphonic system to stop these European trashy toilets coming to the UK.
>> Yeah. But it wasn't that. It was because the British toilet system, the syphonic system, actually works. And when they have toilet systems in America, cuz often it's a a different type of valve, you know, where you sort of put down a plunger type thing, which operates a high-pressure thing, which is a different system altogether. But when they have regular toilet systems in the US, they use our system because they know it's better, too. Most definitely.
And a lot of this pertains to those toilets with two buttons for flushing.
Is that right? That's right. Well, then Well, that was an argument >> always hated those. Just give me one good flush, please. Yeah, the what The argument was it uses slightly less water if you widdle in the toilet and you don't want to have a full flush. But actually, the amount of water it saves is far, far less than the 400 million gallons every year wasted by the leaky valve, which inevitably happens uh with these toilets that you get. I I've had literally a brand new toilet fitted uh in the where I am now, in the middle of Wales, where it's glorious and sunny, by the way. And um it's been leaking actually from about a month old.
And that's what they do. It's an inferior system. But Labour, of course, made light of it at the time. And sadly, the consequence was these cheaper toilets came in. Not only did we have leakage, but more sadly, Armitage Shanks got taken over by Ideal Standard, the US firm, because they started losing money on this, and that's a great shame. Well, Rafe, yielding to the will of the EU has been very costly for this country over many years, hasn't it? For example, do you remember the carbon targets under the premiership of Tony Blair with Gordon Brown in number 11, in which we were all encouraged to purchase diesel rather than petrol engine cars because they produced lower CO2 emissions. That was an EU directive. Well, it was a terrible policy because the emissions from diesel engines are far worse for human health. So, what we've done is essentially sacrificed our health at the altar of an EU directive on carbon. Yes, but can I just say one of the reasons I love talk is that we have, you know, this is the only place where you get a peer you get a knight of the realm giving a passionate and patriotic defense of British lavatories and detailed information about the leaky valves of foreign foreign loos. I think it's absolutely glorious. And yes, he's quite right on all the points he makes, as are you. Remember how many people invested in these diesel in these diesel engines and diesel cars, and of course all the damage that caused not only to themselves, but also to their pocketbooks people forget about as well.
And then you had the scandal, didn't you? Was it of Volkswagen, I believe it was, who was basically faking their emission test standards.
>> Well, we poisoned the lungs of our kids in the name of carbon emissions as a result of an EU directive. It's very clear that the emissions from a petrol engine are far safer for human health than diesel engines. And I believe it was in 2000 we had around a million diesel cars. By 2010, it was 10 million.
So, we we by an order of magnitude we purchased diesel cars. And have we saved the planet with that? No, well, you could argue argue have anything that we've done in this country actually save the planet given that we only account for 1% of emissions and we are essentially our hog-tying ourselves, tying our hands behind our back while other countries leap forward in leaps and bounds ahead of ahead of us. I would say look just, you know, just well, look look at Poland. Poland's growing its economy by 18% in the in the last since 2019. We've only grown our economy by about 1%.
Um, but yeah, you're absolutely right and the key thing here for me is that no heads rolled over this diesel issue.
Time and again we see these sorts of devastating decisions being made. This as you say has affected the lives, the health of people in this country and yet nobody has been held to account for it.
Most definitely. Sir Michael, we know you're on a busy schedule. Might you be available to stay with us for after the break until 11?
I can, yes indeed.
>> Oh, that's fantastic news cuz we know you've got lots on today, but I'm so happy because I want to ask you about Reform UK and your reaction to their policy announcement that they would like to scrap income tax on overtime hours worked. Plus, is a peace deal in the Middle East in the offing and has therefore Donald Trump been proved right in his efforts to disarm Iran? That plus the BBC license fee, what do you think?
Do you still watch the BBC? Do you still love the BBC? Does it feel like it belongs to you because you most certainly pay for it? Let me know your thoughts. Is it time to get rid of the hated TV tax? We'll play out this part with a voice note from lovely Elaine.
Looking good today. No time. What's going on?
Have a lovely day.
>> Hello and welcome to Down The Local, the show that goes from pub to pub across the country speaking to the punters about the subjects driving us all nuts at the moment.
I don't really know Meghan Markle. I know Meghan Markle is from Suits, and that's about it. I don't know about anyone else, and I don't know where this is going. I have 0% beer and I talk.
Braverman flying like he's is symptomatic of the of this desperation.
>> Is public transport good value for money? No, it [ __ ] isn't. You really don't like speaking to people.
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Big apologies, the phone lines are down, but I'm going to have a look at your texts into the show as well. Just text the word talk and your message to 8722.
Our switchboard is not working. I'm not able to put calls through. I'm really sorry about that. Why don't you go for voice notes? I think Ted is already trawling through quite a few that have come in. "I voted for Reform when they were grassroots," says Red. "I left when Farage came back cuz I don't trust him and don't want a Muslim PM in Yousef.
This from Matthew in Cheltenham. Good morning, Mark. I've been in Canada for 25 years and have joint citizenship.
Your guest Rafe is only half right.
Canada is shockingly left-wing thanks to the Trudeau family, but Rafe is right about talent because they work on a points system. But, the problem is that once they're in, they use the system to get all of the relatives in the back door. They do not integrate. There are areas throughout the Golden Horseshoe, Toronto area, which are West Indian, East Indian, Chinese because they won't integrate. In fact, they openly want other races out of their areas. Well, that's what happens, isn't it, Rafe? Yeah, I should say I I used to live in Canada. So, what I was talking about specifically, I said Canada was was seen as very left-wing in the '80s and '90s when this wasn't the case. In the '80s and '90s, they were cherry-picking the the best and the brightest. I wasn't referring to what's happened recently in the last decade or so under under Trudeau when yes, suddenly Canada has become just as crazy, if not crazier, than Britain.
But, in the period of the '80s and '90s when everyone celebrated Canadian immigration, they were choosing a very very different type of immigrant to what they've encouraged today. And yes, the rate of change in in in in North in Canada has been remarkable and not in a good way. Not in a good way is absolutely right. So, Michael, Nigel Farage has announced that if he becomes Prime Minister, one of his first policies will be to scrap income tax on overtime. Is this a good move? You're a not just ex-politician of significant stature, you're an entrepreneur as well.
Do you think this policy will work?
Now, we're just getting the line to Sir Michael at the moment. He's been thwarted. He's been censored, actually, because he's dropping too many truth bombs. Sir Michael, Nigel Farage to scrap income tax on overtime hours. Your reaction?
Right. I don't know what bit you caught.
I think it's a good idea in principle.
It will cost about 5 billion pounds.
But, you know, we have a real problem in this country with both tax and benefits, which actually both of them work together to conspire to be a disincentive to work. And this is the issue in this country. It's often better just not to work than to work. And this is the idea behind Nigel Farage's good idea. But, in practice, the question is, well, it's going to cost around 5 billion pounds, which the exchequer won't get if we put this in place. Of course, ultimately, it'll be collected because people, we think and hope, and that's the whole aim of it, will work harder. And when you work harder, you do pay more tax. And that's fair. But, in the short term, there nothing will happen. Uh in the short term, there'll be a lag. So, where is he going to fill that 5 billion pounds from? But, as far as I'm concerned, anything that encourages people to work and get off their big fat bottoms has to be a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Rafe, I like the messaging of this policy because it encourages people to work hard rather than punishing them to do so. I'm a little worried about execution. I'm worried about companies having workarounds, and I'm worried about corruption. Yeah, no, well, I think you're right on all three points there. And that's obviously, the first point is why Nigel and Reform have done this. It's going to It's going to play very well with his with his with his voters. Uh people must be seen that work actually pays. Of course, we now know, obviously, being in benefits pays often more than being in work pays. So, if you can actually do overtime and and and retain all of that income, I think that's going to be only for the the for Britain. Particularly, of course, when we have a productivity crisis in this country. We need to do all we can to get as many shoulders behind the wheel of British industry and British work in every way. But yes, you're always going to have uh rascals and rogue employers who are going to try to do what they can to circumnavigate all these sorts of things. And uh you are going to of course have an endemic corruption as we see so much as happening. And of course, if you're in the underground economy, which many people are, and this is corruption happens, uh there's no distinction at all going to be made.
Sir Michael Fabricant, long-term unemployment hits a decade high. And of course, we have the highest youth unemployment in the whole of Europe.
Labour isn't working.
Yeah.
But should we be surprised? Not only do we have the 2% rise on national insurance, we also had uh business rates going back up again, which is destroying the nighttime economy, where many young people do work, or they would work if the businesses were still in business.
This is all predictable.
So why has it happened?
And it's happened because hardly anyone on the Labour Party parliamentary side, whether they be front benchers or back benchers, have run anything in their life. Before I became a member of Parliament, I ran a business which set up radio and TV stations, originally in the UK, and then we did it in 48 different countries around the world. We were clients of ours. And one thing I was very aware of was cash flow, as well as profitability. And I don't think my company could have actually survived under the present condition, because it goes out of its way to encourage people not to work, and to drive businesses out of business. And it's all predictable, and it was predictable from day one when Labour first got into office, and you had Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer talking down the economy and saying oh it's going to be a crisis. Oh we're going to have to bring in a budget which will be really punitive. And because they did that, businesses stopped investing. It was predictable. But not to this Labour lot. The incompetence is utterly staggering. It is and it's very sad to see what businesses are going through because I take the view Rafe and Sir Michael that businesses are very virtuous organizations because they employ people so the state doesn't have to and they create products that we purchase and consume and of course they generate national income. So if I was Prime Minister we can but dream I would love bomb the businesses and I think there is a left-wing progressive case for low taxes and a business-friendly environment. I think to a degree new Labour got it but this current Labour administration do not. It is a race to the bottom. Let's take a voice note from Kevin. These people that say they don't want Nigel Farage in because he'll destroy the country. Well isn't that what this government's doing now?
Destroying the country. It's putting thousands of people out of work, thousands more to come. We've got loads of migrants here who won't work and getting benefits and they want more of them come for do the skilled jobs that nobody will do. Really?
Most definitely and I do think Sir Michael that the establishment media outlets are deafening in their silence in regard to this failing government. We know that when Liz Truss had her economic challenges after the mini budget there was hell to pay. We've had four years of the evil Tories but somehow I feel that the media are letting Labour off the hook.
Well yes, I mean people talk about the Liz Truss brief administration and Keir Starmer likes to say it was an absolute catastrophe. But by all statistical measures it's more of a catastrophe now because under Liz Truss, we still had unemployment going down, we still had growth going up, and although borrowing rates were high, you know what? Now we've got unemployment going up, growth has gone right down to under 1% and we're borrowing far higher than at higher rates of interest than we ever did under Liz Truss. So why aren't the media saying Rachel Reeves is the catastrophe? In fact, compared to Rachel Reeves, Liz Truss was a success.
>> Because most high-profile journalists and TV radio outlets are sympathetic to the Labour cause, are they not, Sir Michael? Well, I think this is the point that our friend across the pond, Donald Trump, feels very much for some reason or other, you know, you work in the media, I used to be a a BBC radio journalist a long time ago, and I was in a minority as you are, Mark.
Most people in the BBC newsroom and other big newsrooms, and I'm going to include ITN or the ITV network, tend to be left of center. And I think it's partly because London is so atypical of the rest of the country. You still have stronghold areas in London which support Labour, which is certainly not the case in most parts of the country.
>> Absolutely. Sir Michael, enjoy the sunshine. Loved our conversation. Rafe is staying with us. So much more to come. Reform UK, are they the true working class party of this country? So much more to come. Keep it talk.
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3 minutes past 11. This is Talk. Mark Dolan in for the brilliant Julia Hartley-Brewer. And breaking this morning is a peace deal coming. Reports have emerged overnight that America and Iran have hammered out a settlement to reopen the Strait of Hormuz and deprive Iran of the ability to make nuclear weapons. So, has Donald Trump won this war? And has he won the argument in the Middle East? Meanwhile, the BBC is now using debt collectors to get money out of cash-strapped Brits. Is it time to get rid of this hated TV tax? Do you still watch the BBC? Do you listen to it? Do you still love the BBC? Does it feel like it belongs to you? Producer Ted is shaking his head. He's not happy at all. He's all about Netflix and of course Talk. Uh let me know your thoughts. 0344 499 1000. The brilliant Kieran is taking your calls. You can hear us on the radio, DAB plus, in app, and online.
And it may well be that you've got the radio on in the garden. Gorgeous sunny day across the country. Bank Holiday, of course. You may have this show on the radio in your van or in your car as you work because many millions of Brits are working this Bank Holiday, in which case I salute your contribution to the unstoppable powerhouse that is the great British economy. You can also watch the show and see my controversial outfit, which I've got to tell you has horribly divided opinion. So, if you want to find out what I'm wearing, don't worry. I'm wearing something. Uh head over to YouTube. Search Talk and up we pop.
Actually, uh Ted, if I was wearing nothing, would the numbers go up?
I dread to think. Live in the studio, the fully clothed and extremely elegant Rafe Haydelman who joins us, senior fellow at the New Culture Forum. Hello, Rafe. Greetings. Very good to have you with us. We're talking about Reform UK this morning because of course they have designs on power. Yesterday they announced a policy to scrap income tax on overtime, but will they ever see power if the right remain divided? Nigel Farage has been speaking to the press this morning saying that Reform may lose this by-election in Makerfield because of the support that some voters have for Restore UK, which of course is Rupert Lowe's insurgent party. Rafe, are you worried about a divided right? I am very much so. But personally in Makerfield because if Andy Burnham wins, he's the only candidate who was forecast in the polls to be able to beat Keir Starmer.
And if he beats Keir Starmer and becomes Prime Minister, uh a a Labour led by Andy Burnham is likely to basically beat Reform in the polls.
So anybody on the right who's concerned about extending Labour for another 5 years at a general election needs to think seriously about where they cast their vote. You know, even if you don't like what Reform for example, just think about the greater of issue and the greater problem. But can I just also say, yes, the reason we've had strong government on the right in this country in recent decades is because there's only been one party on the right. With the exception of 2015 in every recent general election, more votes were cast for center-left parties.
I don't think enough people understand this. More people in this country vote for left-wing parties than vote for right-wing parties. But the left have been split between Plaid, SNP, Lib Dems, Labour, uh and and the Green Party. If we start doing the same on the right because more vote for the left, we could be out of power for a generation if not more. And the The election is even more crucial because nobody makes this really fundamental point. Right-wing voters are dying at a far faster rate than left-wing voters. By 2030, 1.4 million right-wing voters will have died compared with only 400,000 left-wing voters. That means if you're going to have a chance to reverse the left's long march through the institutions, to stop immigration, save your country, you need to actually change the minds of young people who are now, of course, increasingly We have the most radically left-wing youth in history. They're not becoming more conservative as they grow older.
>> Particularly women. Particularly women, but even even There's a myth in this country that the youth the male youth are becoming right-wing in great numbers. Only 24% of youth in this country uh vote for uh right-wing parties. 75% are left-wing.
That's higher than in any other demographic. So, it's crucial that this election, maybe at the next election, the last chance you have to ensure that kids in this country aren't being indoctrinated in our schools for the next 10 years, which will make the matter all the more worse. We need to ensure we get a right-wing government in this election and give them a 10-year mandate to do what is necessary to do. I mean, the great tragedy is we should be 14 years into this project, but we had the Conservative in name only party. Uh I call it the neoliberal party and Boris Johnson did nothing to reach out to the youth of this country. Everything was about triple-lock pensions, nothing done to reach out to the youth, and now we on the right are paying the price for it.
So, yes, think tactically, vote for the people who can actually hopefully bring in a right-wing government that can reverse the damage that's been done.
What do you think, folks? Should voters on the right unite behind Reform UK to keep Labour out of power at the next election? Let me know your thoughts on that. Is it time for everyone on the right to back Nigel Farage? 03444991000.
I'd love to know what you think about that. The issue we have with Rupert Lowe is he's a very articulate man. I've I've Rupert for years. He's a gentleman, extremely clever, successful entrepreneur, former football club chairman, and a farmer as well. So, this guy's got deep life experience. He's a patriot. He speaks a lot of sense on X. It's hard to disagree with almost any of his posts on there.
The issue we've got is he'll never be prime minister, and much of what he says and proposes is fantasy politics. Yeah, I have to say everybody knows my politics is very conservative. No one would say that I'm in any way, you know, wet or limp-wristed or any of this sort of a thing.
Uh you you know, I'm I Rupert Lowe and I see eye to eye on so many issues. And on the core issues that come for this country, there isn't much that actually distinguishes uh Restore from Reform, I have to say as quite honestly. And if you actually look at what Rupert Lowe says online, of course he's not in charge of his Twitter accounts, whatever is posted on social media isn't necessarily coming from him, and you contrast it with what he said in interviews, they are then very different. So, actually if you look at what Rupert Lowe says when he's actually in a face-to-face interview, there isn't much difference between him and Reform at all on many, many issues. In fact, you could say a lot of things he said are actually more more weak than Reform when you look at him in a face-to-face interview. So, there are Some people call him a closet Tory. So, well, there's another question. I'm not But I'm not here to see I What I don't like is I don't like the internecine fighting between people on the right. I want to bring everyone together, and I've got many people who follow me who are Restore voters, and I sympathize with them, and I understand all their issues and causes, and I'm a kindred spirit on many things. But we have to be practical here. The risk of having an Andy Burnham government is so great. We have to get behind whoever we believe is going to win, and I do support Reform. I'm happy to say that now on air. I think Reform has to be the vehicle for change. I'm happy to give them my support.
>> Why has a robust and very, very considered conservative exited the Conservative cause and backed Reform? Why have the Tories lost you?
Well, I was never I haven't been with the Tories for for for for a deck for a decade, I would say.
>> right? And why would that be? Is that because the Because the Tory creep began a decade ago? The Well, the leftist creep began a long time ago, but certainly 2010 you could say was the moment at which the Tories stopped being the Conservative Party and became a neoliberal party. You know, true conservatism is about conserving society. The clue is in the name. You're supposed to conserve. You know, conservative would neoliberals would happily build build a motorway through a pastoral landscape. They don't care about defending the working class of this country. Progress is better, free market. No, I believe that it's a duty of conservatives to ensure that everybody in society has their communities and their way of life preserved and that we ensure that we we our children inherit the very best aspects of British life. And I'm sorry, the greatest act of harm in our history was mass immigration. And rather than stop mass immigration, the Tories put the pedal to the metal. You know, 7% of this country's population changed in just 3 years between 2021 and 2024. That was the biggest change in population in a thousand years. The Tories should have reversed the left's control of our institutions. They should have reversed the left's control of our museums of our galleries, of our universities, of our schools, of the civil service, of the media. They did none of that. They In fact, things got far worse under them.
They they As far as I'm concerned, the Tory Party needs to die. There needs to be a hostile takeover of the Conservative Party by the Reform Party.
That's what happened in Canada. In Canada in '93, the Conservative Party of Canada was the government. They lost that election. They were left with only two seats. The Reform Party of Canada, very similar to the Reform Party here, became the biggest uh right-wing party in in in the in the parliament. They took over the Conservative Party and a new Tory Party was born. It stopped being the Progressive Conservative Party. There's an oxymoron for you. And there was a new Tory Party formed and that now runs and it's much more conservative and much more linked into the people. That's what needs to happen here. And the great tragedy of the last election was the Tories didn't lose enough seats, so they never felt that there was an existential crisis. But people need to understand all these issues and vote tactically at the next general election.
>> We've seen, haven't we, the same thing happen in Australia with the collapse of the Liberal Party, which are the equivalent of the Tories there, and they're being usurped by One Nation led by Pauline Hanson, who's been a regular on my show at the weekend. However, is the tide turning? So, for example, you've got a Labour Home Secretary who has announced a policy in which you will have to wait twice as long for settled status indefinitely to remain in this country. You will need a command of the language. You will need to be able to make a economic contribution, and you cannot have a criminal record. We can welcome that policy from a Labour Home Secretary.
A potential incoming Prime Minister in Andy Burnham has let it be known he will support that policy, which was in question just a week ago. Meanwhile, you've got a French politician making the following statement, "We have reached the limit," announces French Minister of Justice Gerald Darmanin, as he plans to stop legal immigration into France for 3 years. "We have reached the limit," says a mainstream French politician. Is the pendulum swinging?
The pendulum is swinging. And as I said, we the people need to understand that migration still is a huge issue in this country. Don't believe the net migration figures we've just been sold about 141,000 migrants coming here. The real number is 800,000 because, of course, we're talking about gross migration figure.
But yes, of course, we have to celebrate any policies that are correct. And I'm not party political. I'm happy to support policies if Labour puts them forward, but don't be fooled by all the spin. Labour, of course, is not being as draconian as everyone thinks. Edward Leigh, the veteran Tory MP, said Shabana Mahmood is the best home secretary the Tory party But the reality is, of course, there are still ways you can fast-track yourself into having citizenship in only 5 years if you're an asylum seeker, if you're a certain type of migrant to this country.
To really get real, if you really want to stop uh people coming here and create a real deterrence, abolish indefinite leave to remain, ensure that nobody who is here is entitled to benefits unless they are a citizen. Citizenship after 15 years, then you're entitled to benefits and social housing. And if people have to make it here on their own for 15 years, my god, will you see those numbers come down because they won't be able to survive here. And so you will only be left with the very brightest, the very best, the high earners, not the flotsam and the jetsam we have invited into this country. 3/5 of the migrants we've had come to this country have been a net drain on the economy. They've been low-skilled, low-wage earners. You know, the only reason that there was a justification for immigration, for all the social tensions, for all the cultural erosion, for all the antisocial behavior, the knife attacks, the acid attacks, the honor killings, the child marriage, the cousin marriage, the gangs with machetes fighting in the streets, all that we were told was worth it because of the economic imperative of mass immigration to actually fund our fund our our public services. Well, I'm afraid all the evidence shows that wasn't the case. That argument, the economic argument, has been blown out of the water. So yes, we actually do need a moratorium. In fact, it's very interesting, you know, America had huge mass immigration outside of the Anglosphere world in the 1880s to the 1920s, biggest period of immigration, Jews and others from Eastern Europe, Italians came in. That caused a lot of tension in America cuz America's never been a nation of immigrants. America and Canada were were settler colonies filled with people from the British Isles. But then, and Germany, but then you got all these people coming from outside Western Europe. What did it do? It had 40 years of almost no immigration, very limited immigration from the 1920s to the 1960s to give the nation time to breathe, to absorb those who had come, and have them buy into America. And you know what?
1920s to 1960 was the greatest period of growth of It was the golden age, harmony, social cohesion, peace, prosperity, a land of milk and honey. We might be wise to try to think about something like that for us.
>> And America has never been all in with the multicultural experiment, which is a socialist ideology.
Yeah, the great contrast is Canada versus America. Both have had big immigration. In Canada, they say we are a mosaic. Come here, celebrate your culture, weave your culture into the national fabric, the national quilt of Canadian life. In America, it was the melting pot rather than a mosaic. Come here, you can celebrate your cultures and everything else, but there's one overarching American culture. And I think we need to have more of that in this country. Prior There's nothing wrong with celebrating your own heritage, your own culture. Of course, have your feast days, your festivals, but there should be one overarching British culture. This is the era of identity politics. Everyone can celebrate their identity apart from the English and the British more broadly, but we must prioritize the one umbrella culture that all of us should be able to be part of.
>> Most definitely. Uh get those calls in.
Do you still love the BBC? They're now using bailiffs and debt collectors to shake money out of cash-strapped Brits.
Let me know. 03444991000.
And do the right need to unite behind reform in order to prevent another 5 years of a left-wing administration?
Lots of texts coming in. Good morning, Mark. Kirsty from West Yorkshire. As soon as Labour got into power, I took a second job as they always take more from us. I work I work a minimum of 40 hours a week in my employment, finishing most days at about 6:00 p.m. I then start my second freelance role until 9:30 p.m.
This is most weekdays. I work every weekend and will be doing so this bank holiday weekend. Reform has just piqued my interest with this policy of scrapping income tax on overtime.
Some of my lefty friends are angry with me for having two jobs as they see it as I'm taking a job from someone else, but I've always been a worker and have decent skills. So, why wouldn't I use them? You can't win with the left as Mike Neville says, they never sleep.
Great show as always. Kirsty, what a fantastic message. And can I congratulate you on your amazing career?
Two jobs there, your work ethic as well.
And the idea that you would be taxed on your overtime is so wrong. And I think this is a very, very positive policy as long as it's not exploited by unscrupulous and corrupt employers. Mark in Stratford, hello Mark and hello Rafe.
Ben Habib wants Andy Burnham to beat Reform in Makerfield and therefore potentially become PM. This tells you all you need to know about him and that other bitter man, Rupert Lowe. It's all about ego and they don't have the country's interests at heart. Thank you for that, Mark.
Um Maggie in London, good morning Mark.
Am I reading you wrong? Uh but you have late seems to be against Nigel and blowing the trumpet for Lowe. I agree with Michael. If Burnham gets in, then the UK loses out. Do we want Starmer times two? I think not. No, not at all, Maggie. I think what I would say about Rupert Lowe is he's a very considered and intelligent man. He has a lot of support in the country and I think that a lot of what he says on X makes a lot of sense. I think in an ideal world, he could be the ideological North Star that guides the Reform UK project. It would certainly help if they were not fighting like rats in a sack. So much more to come. This is TalkTV 11:19.
>> Hello and welcome to Down The Local, the show that goes from pub to pub across the country speaking to the punters about the subjects driving us all nuts at the moment.
>> What? Treats or deeds? Treats or feeds?
Treats for my mates. I don't really know Megamouth. I know Megamouth is in six and that's about it. I don't know about anyone else and I don't know where this is going. I have zero percent beer and I talk. Raise the flag like being is is symptomatic of the of this desperation.
>> Is public transport good value for money? No, it can't isn't. You really don't like speaking to people.
>> No.
Across the UK on DAB Plus on YouTube, on your mobile and on your side.
This is Talk.
Do you back Reform UK's policy of scrapping income tax on overtime? Jen has messaged the show. Good morning, Jen. I hope you're having a good Bank Holiday Monday.
She's in Wolverhampton. She says, "Mark, regarding income tax one big problem is that if you have a second job, it's a rip-off because it's taxed at the basic rate. Reform ought to look into changing that. I do agree with you, Jen. I think the devil will be in the detail when it comes to that policy.
Paul says, "I voted for Rupert Lowe in Great Yarmouth because I wanted a council to work with Restore, but the only way to protect our country is to vote Reform at the next general election."
This from Sue's. "Good morning, Mark.
I'm so angry with Rupert Lowe, the leader of Restore. He knows he cannot win this race in Makerfield. He's not putting the survival of the country first. I will leave this country if Burnham wins. Starmer got one thing right in his speech on the day of the United UK March. This is a fight for the soul of our country, and he's on the side of more destructive destruction while Farage wants to save the country I previously admired Lowe. Now I think he is the devil."
And this from Paul. "Mark, I'm not paying for a TV license, and I don't see why I should. The BBC are biased towards the Labour Party."
More of your feedback shortly. Now, the Prime Minister, Sir Keir Starmer, has described a case in which three teenage boys were spared custodial sentences over the rape of two girls as appalling.
He added that it was absolutely right that the sentences given by a judge at Southampton Crown Court were being reviewed by the Attorney General. Two girls, then aged 15 and 14, were raped in separate incidents in Fordingbridge, Hampshire, in November of 2024 and January 25 by two 14-year-olds. Another boy, then 13, was also convicted for his involvement in the second attack. Let's get reaction to this verdict and the remarks of the Prime Minister from Danny Shaw, policing, crime, and justice commentator. Hello, Danny. Good to see you again.
Good morning, Mark. Well, it's the most tragic story and the most egregious and horrific crime. Were you surprised when you saw this sentence being passed?
Very surprised. I think the judge has got this wrong. I think the judge is right to consider the rehabilitation of the two young the three young offenders as an important factor. I mean, what everyone wants to see is that these three never commit a crime ever again and certainly never a crime like that ever again. So, they need to be rehabilitated at some point. But, what the judge failed to do in my view, and I haven't seen the full sentencing remarks, but it seems to me that he's failed to understand that as well as their rehabilitation, there's a message that a case like this sends to the wider public. Uh there's a deterrent effect and there's also a protection issue around keeping the public safe from from from these three.
And there's also a justice point.
Justice must be served and there must be a sense that it's been served and imprisonment in such a terrible case like this is really the only punishment uh that should be uh imposed. And so, I do think that it's right that the case is being reviewed by the Attorney General, Lord Harmer. I'm pretty sure he will refer it back to the Court of Appeal. That's the only body that can increase the sentence and impose custody. And when the Court of Appeal, there'll be three judges who will hear that case, look at it, I'm pretty sure that they will impose a custodial sentence, perhaps not on all three, but certainly on two. Uh but as I say, it will be up to the Court of Appeal ultimately. Danny, does this soft verdict tell us anything about the culture of our modern judiciary?
I think what it tells us is this, is that in the past 15 years or so, Mark, there has been a big drive to keep young people under 18s in England and Wales out of the criminal justice system and to stop criminalizing them if possible.
So, you know, a young person cautioned or convicted for a minor offense, there'll be a big push, let's not send them to custody, let's try and keep them out of the system if possible. And that has driven down the number of young people in custody. It used to be around 3,000, it's now about 300 to 400. Now, there may be some good reasons why that's the case and it may be that there are some young people who really shouldn't be in custody and that's why they >> Because jail jail is bad for most children, isn't it? Yeah, it it worsens them, but there are some cases, I'm afraid.
>> Mhm. There are some cases which cry out for prison because they are so egregious, they're so serious and it's the wider message that it sends to the public and to the victims about the crime and this is one of those cases and I think the judge has got it wrong and I think there will be other cases like that where the where judges, magistrates sentencing thinking, well, if I send this young person to custody for 3 months, 6 months or a year, that's really not going to help their development very much, so I'll, you know, impose a community order instead.
And they perhaps don't always think about the impact that has on the victim who's had to struggle to report the case to police and then have to give evidence and go through the trauma and the ordeal and and so I think the balance has moved too far in one direction. And the problem with this soft verdict is it's likely, Danny, to diminish public trust in our system of justice. Oh, absolutely. That's why it's so damaging because people see those headlines and they think it's soft justice, here we go, it's too lenient and so on and it does undermine trust in the judiciary and in the system. And it also would you know, other victims thinking of reporting a terrible attack, will be thinking, "Well, I'm going to go through all that trauma, and at the end of it, what's going to happen? They'll get a community order." I mean, the community order that's been imposed on these three is pretty punitive, Mark. I have to say that. I mean, for two of them, it's 3 years. There'll be a curfew. There'll be tagging. There'll be activity requirements. They'll be very closely monitored and supervised. So, it's not going to be a soft touch for them, but it's not the same as imprisonment and the message that that sends. Mark, you've got a tough job, haven't >> you as a policing crime and justice commentator, one of the very best in the country in that role, because we've got the court backlog, which runs to thousands of cases. We've got full prisons and high rates of reoffending.
British justice really is in crisis, isn't it?
Well, this government inherited a problem. I don't want to make a party political point, but they they didn't >> going on for over a decade, hasn't it?
>> problem.
>> back to austerity, I suppose. 40% cuts to the justice department. Exactly. And and, you know, prisons were shut. Too few new prison places came on stream.
And so, what the government had to do was they they were running out of prison places. And the only way to deal with that was emergency legislation to um you know, in essence, um you know, let some offenders get off early and and others uh won't go to prison. They'll be on community terms.
And I didn't really see any alternative that realistic alternative that's being proposed. At the same time, they are building new prisons, but that takes time. That takes many years.
>> people forget that the uh expansion of the prison estate was halted during the pandemic, which is a big factor as well.
Yes. Yes. Yes, uh prison building sort of ground to a halt. There's also one of the major contractors uh went bust. That has added to the problems as well. Um you know, so prisons are being built, but it takes many years before that comes on stream and the new places. So, I do have some sympathy with the position the government found itself in and having to introduce emergency early release schemes and then trying to switch the focus more to to community terms with tagging. But, then what you end up with is a situation, um you know, with we'll come on to this is that this appalling case of this plainclothes police off- officer who was beaten up, left with a broken ankle, broken leg, facial fractures, eye damage, and still suffering sort of the trauma and the pain 2 years later, where his attackers, um one of them has been released from jail. He has served 82 days of a sentence of 3 years and 10 months. He's He's served less than 3 months of a sentence of over 3 years in prison because effectively, the various measures to reduce the prison population have kicked in in his case, and so he's able to to be released early. And you're going to get more cases like that that will strike the public as absolutely outrageous, um I'm afraid. And that is a consequence of a a system where there isn't enough capacity in prisons, and so you have to try and reduce the numbers, and he's being let out on a tag. That man, Alex Quinn, now 20 years of age.
>> It It's really, really shocking. An attack on a police officer, which in its own way is an aggravating factor, an egregious crime, could have killed that guy. 82 days served. But, yes, I mean, I agree with you. I'll be the first to call out, in my view, Labour's impact on the economy since they won the election.
I think they've made things worse. But, when it comes to our justice system, this is a legacy of failure that goes back decades, and you won't see me ranting and raving about Labour on that one because this has been a problem that just hasn't gone away, and it's about money, isn't it? And investment. And of course, unfortunately, justice always seems to be at the back of the queue for investment. Before Before let you go, Danny, thank you for joining us on this sunny Monday. We've got some breaking news. Nicola Sturgeon's estranged husband has admitted embezzling £400,000 from the SNP.
Peter Murrell, the party's former chief executive, and of course the ex-partner of former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, was led away in handcuffs and remanded into custody after pleading guilty to embezzling almost half a million pounds. He was accused of using the money to buy items including a motorhome and luxury goods.
Of course, that marriage has ended and that story caused huge political damage to Nicola Sturgeon and will likely taint her political legacy, Danny.
Well, it may do, but she has distanced herself from her husband, hasn't she? I I don't know whether they have instituted divorce proceedings, but certainly they're they're not living together.
Um and I mean, it it's it's extraordinary case.
I mean, he he will now surely be facing, I would have thought, a very lengthy prison term for this, even though he's pleaded guilty, so he'll get some credit for that in sentencing, but a lengthy prison term for doing that.
It's just extraordinary when people in positions of power and and influence like that commit acts like that to such an extent um and think they can get away with it.
I mean, it never ceases to amaze me.
It's really shocking. Danny, what a privilege to have you on the show. Thank you so much for your valuable time. Have a good bank holiday weekend. Danny Shaw is a policing and crime expert and commentator. A fascinating conversation.
So much more to get through. What about this, folks, as a story? There is now a mad scramble by asylum seekers in this country to remain in the country before the laws get toughened up. Migrants scramble for British citizenship amid crackdown. We'll get reaction from the former head of UK Border Force, Tony Smith, next.
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This is Talk.
You are listening to Talk and let me tell you that migrants are rushing to apply for British citizenship in record numbers to avoid future restrictions on settlement rights planned by the Labour government. More than 312,000 refugees, migrant workers, and their dependents applied for citizenship in the year to this March, the highest number on record and double the rate of 8 years ago, according to Home Office figures. Let's get reaction now from Tony Smith, former head of UK Border Force. And Tony, with the rules getting tougher, it's not surprising that this scramble is happening.
No, it's not, Mark, really. Um as you know, the Home Secretary has um proposed some changes in terms of the indefinite leave uh uh application process.
Normally, people who come here on temporary permits um can get permission to stay up to 5 years. She's saying she's going to extend that. That's not yet been in put in place, but there there are going to be a number of categories where you won't get permanent status in this country for some considerable time unless you apply to become a British citizen. And that's why I think we're seeing this scramble now that people think that with those changes coming, I'd rather get my British citizenship uh now, because once I've got British citizenship, then of course I accrue all of the rights of every other British citizen. Whereas if I remain on a temporary visa, then I don't get that sort of thing. So, that I think that's the main reason why we've seen this this surge in applications.
I've got no problem with people applying for a visa to remain in this country and to work here, Tony.
Do you think that overall the policy of indefinite leave to remain has been an historic mistake for the UK?
Uh I think it has in recent years, Mark.
When I worked in the department, I'm going back a long time now, but back in the '80s and '70s and the '80s, it was 4 years actually for settlement, but we weren't seeing the sorts of levels of immigration that we see now. I think that what's happened since the you know, the last 20 years or so we've seen such huge numbers of people coming over here that I do think we need to look at it.
And a number of other countries, and even European countries, will demand that you stay for many many more years than that before you get full status. I think the time is right now for a review of that policy. Um and um you know, that's really I think what's prompted the changes in behavior that we're seeing. I haven't had the privilege of speaking to you since Shabana Mahmood decided that you would have to wait 10 rather than 5 years for settled status, and that would be there would be several hoops to jump through including a degree of income, and the absence of a criminal record, and the ability to speak the language to a high standard. Do you think this policy from the home secretary is enough to tackle, for example, illegal immigration?
I don't think it is in itself, Mark, but I do think it's a step in the right direction. You will know that the French have criticized us for having, you know, a pull factor here that is much more attractive for people to be here rather than in mainland Europe, and that's one of the reasons is that there there was a path to citizenship, quite an early one.
If you got status in this country, there's a path to family reunification, and of course we got quite a generous welfare state in the UK. All of those are pull factors, and I think that's what's behind the home secretary's policy shift. But I don't think it's going to be enough to stop illegal migration in itself because I mean but the problem we've got with irregular or illegal migration, particularly the boat arrivals, is that very few of them are ever going to be sent back, no matter what status you put them on, Mark, whether you let them stay permanently or temporarily. They're not going to go back. Only about 4% of boat arrivals have ever been returned, and so you've still got that constant flow of people that we're seeing right now of people still wanting to come over here from mainland Europe, and in the knowledge that whatever else happens, they'll probably be allowed to stay here in the end, and they're probably be allowed to work here and uh and never be sent home, and I think that's what we've got to tackle fundamentally to stop illegal migration. Here's an easy one for you, Tony, on a bank holiday Monday afternoon before you've had your first cold Budweiser and the barbecue, which is as follows. Why have the West opened their borders so enthusiastically in the last 10 to 20 years? Why have we seen illegal immigration at eye-watering levels across Europe and in the UK. Why have we had such a generous legal immigration system? What is going on?
What is behind this, Tony? Because it's a major change.
Yeah, there's a number of factors obviously marking at play here. I mean, the migrant crisis of 2016, I don't know if you remember that, you know, decade ago now, but we had over a million illegal entries into the EU. Many of those prompted by Germany who were were operating an open door really to anyone.
There was a huge kerfuffle in the European Union about where people were going to go, who was going to go where, but that prompted the the message, I suppose, to the human smugglers that actually if you can get into the EU, there's a good chance of staying. Then we saw that overflow into the UK. And then of course, you had this massive Boris wave. And I think here, what we've seen over the years, even going back to my time in the Home Office, is the Treasury argument that immigration is good for the economy. That usually won the day with the last sets of governments that I know about. Until now, I think we've had some analysts now coming in on the right of the argument and so actually, it's not an economic benefit to have low-skilled migration in large numbers. I think that tide has now turned. I think the Migration Advisory Committee are now saying that. But for many, many years, Mark, people were saying that immigration is a good thing for the economy because the more people you have in your country, the greater the output, the greater the GDP. Now, I'm not an economist, but I can I can understand the difference between GDP and GDP per capita. I think that's the problem, Mark, that people need to understand. It's quite complicated, but actually, there is no there is no real benefit in large-scale low-skilled immigration. I think this government have recognized that now. And I think even the last government have recognized that they made mistakes in in opening the doors in the under the Boris wave.
Well, stay with us if you can, Tony.
Joining us on the line is Matthew in Warrington. Hello, Matthew.
Mark, you okay, mate? Yeah, thanks so much for calling the show. What do you make of all of this? Right, last night I watched that Simon Reeve's Scandinavia.
And he went to Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. And he obviously he said all the nice things and at the end of each area he went to, came up to the same old problem.
Immigration.
>> Yeah.
Sweden, bit of a soft touch. They're not messing about.
They they they they've decided that we we're not going to put up with this.
Denmark, they've even gone a bit further. They're saying well, we're not having ghettos, so they're actually moving people out. So, they're integrating. They're they're cutting the benefits and saying if you don't go to send your kids to school and learn about the Danish way of life, then you're not getting anything, you're not welcome.
And it seems to me all across Europe we've got the same problem. We're too scared to stand up and say, "Okay, yeah, by all means come to our country, but you live by our rules, by our religions, by our ways of life." By all means have a mosque or or have your religion, but fundamentally, while you're in our country, you live and die by our rules.
And it's about time now that someone and you know, and these were left-wing parties as well. One was a I think the one in Denmark, he was a the left-wing socialist party, all about unions and people's workers' rights and everything, but he wasn't having none of it.
So, why can't we as a great nation that we are just say, "Okay, we'll look at a model like what they're doing in Australia or what they're doing in Scandinavia and we'll stick to that.
We'll now start putting that in place.
You come to this country or you get you get assessed. We don't It's we you integrate. You don't just migrate. We don't have people living together in big huddles and causing friction and separation. You come to our country and you live and die by our rules. You you you you swear allegiance to the crown or to the Union Jack and you you accept that we have all different Christian societies here. We have women's rights.
We have children go to school and we live and and and we integrate together because at the moment it's failing massively. We We be the worst country in the whole of Europe to be We We're just bowing down and letting people do whatever they want and that is wrong. We can't maintain that. When When our Yes.
When our taxation is less than our welfare and we've got no We've got no military.
We've got no prisons. The reason we've got no prisons is cuz we're paying for welfare. So, we can't be saying put these people in prison. What Where are we going to put them? We're letting the prisoners out.
They're hurting police officers. They're They're doing 80 days. So, where where We're not We've got no It's all right saying lock them up. We've got nowhere to lock them up.
Matthew, every word you've said is brilliant. I mean, that was 10 times better than any Dolan's dispatch. Stay with us, Matthew. Live in the studio, Rafe Hedel-Mankoo.
Matthew gets it. Those who govern us do not. Yeah, absolutely. And he's It's It's very good to talk about Sweden, actually. They've also got a policy of voluntary remigration where they're paying people 300,000 crowns.
>> Immigration has been a disaster in Sweden. It's well, yeah, it's a catastrophe. We've heard about it being the rape capital, but also bombings. I mean, Somali gangs have taken over much of much of Malmö and other places like that. But, Denmark is what we should be talking about because in Denmark, there's no political division about the issue. Here, it's a right-left issue.
There, you've got a left-wing prime minister, former trade union leader, saying we want zero asylum seekers. Can you imagine Angela Rayner or Keir Starmer ever saying something like that?
Now, how did they unite the left and the right? What they did is they made a different argument and we need to think about that in this country. What they said was, "Look, we have got have a wonderful social welfare system here.
Everyone says how great Denmark's social welfare system is. We don't want to be cruel to to foreigners and outsiders, but you have a choice. You can look after your grandmothers, your neighbors, people like you who live in this country, or you can look after the stranger. We can't look after both. So, this is not about cruelty. This is about love, but who do you want to love?" And that's the way they've brought the whole nation behind them. And if we made that argument over here, I think people on the left will begin to understand.
>> And it's interesting, isn't it, Tony, because in fact, Denmark rejected mass migration around 2014. They had what's been described as their Farage moment over a decade ago. They are united, as Rafe said, across the political spectrum against mass immigration, perhaps because as a small Scandinavian relatively homogeneous society, they felt the impact of immigration more keenly, whereas we've just sort of swallowed it up. Matthew in Warrington's made a lot of good points. What do you make of all of this, Tony?
Yeah, the the Scandinavian model, and particularly the Danish model, is very interesting. I did attend an event at the Policy Exchange not long ago, actually, and there were a number of people there from the government. I think the Home Office have had people over in Denmark looking at their policies on all of this. And I think Siobhan McMahons ideas about, you know, things we've been talking about, extending temporary status, you know, not giving immediate rights to people to settle here. Some of those things have been gleaned from their visits to to Denmark, because, you know, you're right. It is a left-wing government there, and the argument that Rafe just put forward is absolutely right. They have convinced the populace in Denmark that it does matter. Illegal immigration does matter. It's important that you control your borders, and and the Danish vote so far has supported that even to the left of the argument. I think the challenge we've got here is that, you know, we have got, you know, for relatively speaking, for a Labour Home Secretary, a pretty tough one in Siobhan McMahons. She is pushing the boundaries a lot further than her predecessor did.
But we come down to this fundamental point about asylum, and is it okay for people to come from a safe country to another safe country and and lodge asylum claim? I don't think it is. Now, we have got provision in our legislation going back to 2002 to deny an asylum claim from somebody who has arrived from a safe third country like France. That's been in place for a long, long time, but we haven't been able to implement it because we have not done the same thing for human rights claims, and we haven't got anywhere to send people back to. So, we need to focus on those things. Are we saying that if you come from France or Belgium, well, look, you know, these are safe countries. They're signatories, so you don't need to come here. You might like a better life here, it doesn't mean you come here. We then bring in legislation and say you cannot claim asylum, you cannot claim human rights, you've come from a safe country, you will be detained and removed. That is the policy that's now being espoused by the conservatives. Not always, and it's certainly been the policy from Reform all along. That's what we need to do.
That's easier said than done though, Mark. As your caller said, we haven't got anywhere to lock people up. Our prisons are already overflowing. The pressure on the Border Force at Manston is huge to grant temporary release into the community, and we have got a gray economy, which is in itself an attraction. So, we've got that big policy divide here between the left and the right about whether or not it's okay to come from a safe country and claim human rights and asylum or not. And I think that's really what will be the dividing line, because we don't have that removals deterrent, then I'm afraid we're still going to see people arriving by a small boat. Matthew, you're a legend. What a brilliant call. Have a good Monday bank holiday if you've got any time off, Matthew in Warrington. And Tony, wonderful to see you again. Do you join me soon. I've missed your words of wisdom. Tony Smith, former head of UK Border Force. If only he was running the country's immigration policy right now, we'd be in a better state, would we not?
Um, so much more to get through. What about this? Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor accused of inappropriate behavior towards a woman at Royal Ascot. We'll get reaction from someone that knows Andrew well next.
>> Hello and welcome to Down The Local, the show that goes from pub to pub across the country speaking to the punters about the subjects driving us all nuts at the moment. Reach out and read. Reach out and feed. Reach out to my mates. I don't really know Megamouth. I know Megamouth is in six, and that's about it. I don't know about anyone else, and I don't know where this is going. I have 0% beers and I talk.
Raising the flag, I think, is um is symptomatic of the of this desperation.
Is public transport good value for money? No, it can't isn't. You really don't like speaking to people.
>> No.
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You are listening to talk, and the police investigation into Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor is examining an allegation that he behaved inappropriately towards a woman at Royal Ascot. The incident allegedly took place in 2002 when the former Duke of York attended the racing event in Berkshire with his mother Queen Elizabeth during her Golden Jubilee year. Officers at Thames Valley Police are understood to be looking into the allegation as part of a wider investigation into Andrew over the alleged offense of misconduct in public office. Let's get reaction now from the former head of royal protection, Dai Davies. Good morning, Dai.
All right, good morning to you, Mark.
These are serious allegations and go beyond the concern around misconduct in a public office.
Well, yes, if indeed they're true, but they're 23 years old and they're part of now, allegedly, the investigation into all manner of issues surrounding this man.
Clearly, I'm pleased that long last, as well as misconduct as an envoy, they're actually looking at alleged allegations of sexual misconduct. Going back to when originally Virginia Giuffre uh made her allegations, which the Met on four occasions decided even five times, there was nothing to see here.
So, if they're actually seriously looking at all manner of allegations, and this is not the only one in in respect of his alleged sexual behavior, then I'm delighted, and I hope at long last if it's true, justice can prevail.
That's what I've been asking before for a number of years.
Do you think there may be worse to come in relation to Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor and serious allegations?
Well, it depends what you mean by serious allegations. I think it will be broken down to into three or four separate areas of serious allegations, including I think that his his work alleged as a an envoy. I I think some of the misgoings on there that he and his family are alleged to have been involved with are so serious it almost beggars belief. In terms of the sexual aspect, I don't know if the truth. I hope that the Thames Valley appeal will bring forward those if indeed there are many more victims. Given his alleged behavior at home and abroad, I'd be surprised if there wasn't. But given the furor, how many were actually will now come forward is a matter of debate, I suggest. Now Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor denies all the allegations being presented to him, and he's of course been found guilty of no crime in a court of law.
But given all of these headlines and allegations around Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, does it tell us anything about the culture of the royal family that he may have been able to conduct himself in this way without consequence?
Yes, I think that's a very fair question. What on earth was going on all this time? Didn't anybody at any level from advisers to the late Queen all the way to his private secretaries and others, and those who accompanied him both at home and abroad, didn't anybody see if all these allegations are true, didn't anybody comment? Didn't anybody decide in government, in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office? I could go on and on. I've described it as a tentacle, and those tentacles sadly appear, if these allegations are true, reach every level of the establishment. And how many of those are being questioned, I wonder.
Most definitely. Were you surprised when it was reported just a few days ago that the late Queen Elizabeth II campaigned and lobbied for Andrew to have this trade role?
No, I'm I'm nothing astonishes me anymore about anything related to the activity not only of the late Queen, his brother the now king and others.
Um if some of these allegations are true, but I do think he was pandered. If you look at the evidence as has been now displayed that he was allowed to say, you know, I can pick and choose. I don't want to do the paperwork, so on and so on. Every everything points to such a privileged, arrogant individual who from the Queen downwards, I'm sad to say, let's let him get away with it. And and sadly, the victims that we're now talking about are the ones who suffered along with the taxpayer. We spent millions and millions protecting him, his wife and his daughters. Totally unnecessary in many cases. And I just think the whole thing stinks. And I hope somebody has the moral courage to come out and actually point the finger at those who've aided and abetted him.
That's my theory.
Andrew is a spoiled brat, isn't he?
It would appear so on the evidence that we have seen so far. And again, I you know, how much more evidence do you need in terms of being a spoiled brat as you put it? Whether he's guilty of the other matters is a matter ultimately for a court of law. I just hope he about ultimately, like you and I, alleged of committed these offenses, he does appear in court. Whether he will or not is debatable.
Well, I'm delighted to say, Dai, that Rafe Haydel-Mankoo is with us, senior fellow at the New Culture Forum and somebody that's written and broadcasted a lot about the royal family. What do you make of these latest allegations, Rafe? Well, no surprise as as Dai was saying. Of course, the problem is it's very difficult to actually convict somebody of misconduct in public office because we don't actually know whether his role as a trade envoy meets the threshold. Normally, it'll be government ministers, people in the police and so forth, but we don't know whether this role applies. So, they are trying their very best to find something that will stick. Yes, you can use financial impropriety, but you can also do sexual inappropriateness, which is why we're seeing this appeal. Now, there's been so much discussion about Andrew's activities, it's hard to think that a new appeal couldn't lead to anything new cuz surely if you have an issue, you would have brought it forward. We can hope that there are any victims that they will come forward. There is of course this question about whether a victim was sex trafficked into a royal residence in 2010 as well.
I wouldn't have apportioned blame to her late majesty, however, because of course the role of trade envoy was one traditionally for a member of the royal family. It had been the Duke of Kent beforehand. There is a soft power element to having a member of the royal family do that. Monarchs in the Middle East love having a member of the royal family. So, it's understandable why the Queen would want her son to have such a role. Dai Davies, you've only got a couple of seconds left. Can the royal family survive the Andrew scandal?
Yes, I hope so for the sake of all of us really. We need a constitutional monarchy, but it has to be based on common sense, decency, and certainly have a moral base, which some of them appear not to. Dai, wonderful to see you again. Thank you for joining us on this bank holiday Monday, Dai Davies, former head of royal protection. Next up, the most famous political double act in the country, Neil and Christine Hamilton. Is Nigel Farage a working class hero? This is Talk.
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This is Talk.
>> You are listening to talk and it's Mark Dolan in for the brilliant Julia Hartley-Brewer.
And breaking this afternoon is a peace deal coming. Reports have emerged overnight that America and Iran have hammered out a settlement to reopen the Strait of Hormuz and deprive Iran of the ability to make nuclear weapons. So, has Donald Trump won this war and has he won the argument in the Middle East? Of course, the reason why it matters is because our holidays this summer, Ted Jeffrey, were under threat. That trip to Lanzarote or the United States or the Costa del Sol was seriously in peril because European airlines are running out of jet fuel. So, it really matters.
Plus, of course, we know that part of the reason why inflation has made a return is because of what's happened in the Middle East. So, is a peace deal coming? We'll get to that very, very shortly. Meanwhile, the BBC is now using bailiffs.
It's using debt collectors to get money out of cash-strapped Brits. So, is it time to get rid of this hated TV tax?
Meanwhile, unemployment hits a 10-year high. That's right, folks. We're being led by the party of working people who, it turns out, are out of work. Is this the worst government in a hundred years?
Reacting to the big stories of the day, I'm delighted to say with me in the studio Rafe Haydel-Mankoo, senior fellow at the New Culture Forum. Hello, Rafe.
Greetings. And good afternoon to you.
We've got so many big stories to get through and the Hamilton's waiting in the wings. But I'm very excited to say that Alex Phillips, big star here at talk, is a wonderful traditionalist and she's a patriot and she likes to do a lot of the activities that make this country great. And I think you'll agree that at the very top of that list is cheese rolling. And so, take a look at this.
I'm am the bottom of Cooper's Hill in Gloucester. This is where is where I grew up and today is the annual cheese roll. Thousands of people are packed on the side of this really steep hill.
It's a tradition that nobody really knows when it dates from. People say it could be a Roman tradition. People say it could be a pagan tradition. All I know is that for hundreds of years now, May Bank Holiday Monday, people come from all over the world to chase an actual wheel of Double Gloucester down this incredibly steep hill. It continued happening during World War II, during World War II. The only difference then was they actually used a wooden cheese because of rationing. So far there have been no reported deaths, but many injuries. The event in theory is actually illegal, but the people of Gloucester wouldn't allow that to be the case and so the authorities have had to just allow people to keep assembling here. We've seen earlier on during the day the coming of the cheese, the entry of the cheese, and people wearing ornate animal heads and um sort of pagan face paints and you know, banging drums and shouting cheese, cheese, cheese. And they've now walked round through this area at the bottom of the hill and will be making their way to the top of the hill where at 12:00 the first race will happen. There is a men's race, there's a women's race, there's children's race, and then there's also a race to go all the way back to the top.
Uh just brilliant stuff. I got to say a bit of an X-rated outfit there from Alex Phillips. As a married man, I did not know where to look. It's clearly quite hot where she is, but uh it's quite a moment that the cheese rolling. With me down the line, Britain's most famous political double act, Neil and Christine Hamilton. Good afternoon to both of you.
Neil, have you ever chased a Camembert?
Well, I have chased Alex Phillips. I used to work with her at one Well, that's another story and I believe we're waiting for the results of that tribunal.
But uh it's a wonderful tradition, isn't it, Christine? The cheese rolling, one of those eccentric activities that make this country great.
Absolutely. I'm 100% in favor of all that sort of thing, however stupid.
There's There's a thing that goes on in Wales called Is it bog snorkeling?
This is unbelievable. People snorkel through bogs every year. It always happens. Bogs and Morris dancing. I mean, I used to think Morris dancing was pretty stupid when I was a teenager, but now I absolutely love it. The sight of these middle-aged and elderly men going around with all their bits and bobs, um sticks and flags. I think it's wonderful. It's great exercise. No, I love it. I'm all in favor of all these things. They're the stuff that make Britain great. That's what we're all about. And if you don't like our traditions, then there's something wrong with you. Well, Neil and Christine, you are both robustly conservative individuals. Neil, are you concerned about how fractured the political right are becoming in this country?
Well, it just shows how strong the right generally has become, isn't it? Because And who would have expected this with having the Labour government that we've got, um in which I must be the worst government in living memory, and and possibly going back even to Lord North, who lost the American colonies. But uh I It It is a shame that the the the vote is going to be split, but you know, personalities are inseparable from politics. And Nigel Farage and Rupert Lowe um are like you know, the the two poles of a battery.
Um and join them together and you get sparks. So, uh I don't think that there's anything that can be done to coalesce, which is obviously the desirable thing, so that the Macclesfield by-election would be won by Reform on current pollings. Whereas with a Reform with a Reform candidate as well, it won't be. And he would be truly delightful if Andy Burnham were not to win Wakefield, wouldn't it?
Because that would plunge the Labour Party into even bigger existential crisis than it's got now. More to the point, it would preserve Keir Starmer. I pray for that every night because with Keir Starmer as leader, there is no recovery for Labour. I tend to agree with you. Christine, many are irritated by the intervention of Rupert Lowe into right-wing politics because all they see is a man who is going to dilute the reform vote.
Well, I'm sorry if people feel like that. Rupert was a perfectly good member of Reform, and then Nigel, for some reason, took against him. Nigel has taken against people many people over the years who he thinks are getting a little bit too much publicity, a little bit too much liked by the general populace and the voters and the members, and he cuts them down. It's the tall poppy syndrome. He did it to Neil, he did it to Ben Habib, he did it to Rupert Lowe, he did it to Suzanne Evans. And I'm afraid with Rupert, this is what he's got. Rupert wasn't prepared to just go away. He's got a huge amount to offer, a huge amount to give. He's a You know, he's a very fine politician, and he puts his money where his mouth is.
And it's entirely within Rupert's um you know, ability, whatever. He's perfectly entitled Entitlement, that's the word. Entitled to stand. And Nigel should have thought about this before he kicked Rupert out of Reform. He might have thought, "Gosh, he might go and start his own party." You know, he is a leader, Rupert is a leader. So, we'll see, but I mean, if it means that we get Andy Burnham, uh then, you know, obviously that's that's bad news because as Neil said, what I want, and we're conservatives with a small c, what what we both want is Starmer to remain because he's by far the best of the bunch as for people like us. You I mean, can you imagine if Starmer goes, we don't want Burnham, we don't want Rayner, and God almighty, we don't want what's-his-name, Miliband.
Uh no, we don't want Red Ed doing it.
>> live Starmer. Long live Starmer.
>> Save Starmer. The project starts here.
Paul is in Paul is in Nottinghamshire, Neil and Christine. Uh, Paul, do you think that Farage mishandled his relationship with Rupert Lowe?
Uh, completely. Um, as Yeah, absolutely.
And I think people need to stop um, blaming um, Rupert Lowe for splitting the vote if it happens.
Um, it's a local election. They're supposed to be voting for the people that think are going to do better for the area.
The only people that they can blame if Andy Burnham doesn't end up becoming the PM is the people that vote for Labour.
Not nobody else. They can't Even if you've got 300 parties, the only people to blame is the ones that have voted for him to get in. And Paul, who who gets your vote at the next election? Do you know yet?
Um, originally I was thinking uh, Farage, but then um, he keeps changing his mind with things, saying, "Yeah, I'm going to do this."
Then "I'm not going to do this." It's like, right, okay. So, um, at the moment, it's quite possibly going to be um, Rupert Lowe.
Oh, well, that's fascinating. Paul, thank you for a brilliant call. Have an excellent Bank Holiday Monday. With me live in the studio is Rafe Heydel-Mankoo. Rafe, is it now the duty of all conservatives to unite around Farage? Yes, actually, your last caller was very interesting because there is a class of voters which you find particularly in Reform and elsewhere that are called expressive voters. And they don't care what Look, many of the people in Reform I'm sympathetic with and I respect them greatly, but there's also a faction that don't that are so passionate about these issues. They just want to make their vote and they want their voice to be heard identifying with a certain policies, which I understand, but that that they will do that even if it does mean splitting the vote, which I think is not in their own best interest in the future. So, yes, we do have to unite the right. As I say, when the right is split, they become incapable of forming a government. You only need to have 31 to 32% of the vote to form a majority government today in this country.
Uh the reality is with Reform's vote share hived off of Reform, it becomes very difficult for Reform to meet that threshold, and there is only approximately a 1/3 ceiling that Reform can get. Uh we've always celebrated the rise of the Green Party recently because it splits the Labour vote. So, by that same logic, we have to ensure we don't suffer the same split over here, and it means people may have to hold their noses and vote for a party they don't like. But if we can get the Tories down to single digits, or we can, you know, cuz also the Tories have to think about this. Obviously, no one's going to stand their candidates down, so it's an appeal to voters to basically hold their noses and use tactical voting as they never have before to get behind the candidate they think is most likely to stop Burnham because we know all the polling shows Starmer will beat, Rayner will beat, Streeting will beat, Miliband, but will not beat Burnham. And Burnham as Prime Minister means Labour will become the biggest party in the country. Neil, Christine talked about tall poppy syndrome, about Nigel Farage being intimidated by other popular figures in his party, implying that he's something of a diva, maybe an egomaniac. Do you have concerns about Farage's character?
Well, not really, but the tall poppy syndrome in his case has nothing to do with being intimidated.
He's He's easily intimidatable.
Uh but I do think that he wants to be, as I've described it in the past, the bride at every wedding, and the baby at every christening. So, it's the competition that I think irks him. Um I don't really know. I mean, I've been very close with him and worked with him over many, many years.
Um and I've I've seen the good side of Nigel and the flawed side, if I can put it that way. And they on balance, of course, he's very much a good thing. Uh and he has transformed British politics much for the better, in my opinion. And I do agree with the fountain of wisdom and common sense, Rafe Tadelman, who that we have to think tactically about using our votes to get the ultimate outcome, which we prefer. It may not be 100% what we want, but if it's a very large proportion of what we want, then that's what we should vote for. Right, briefly, the next election should be, you know, a great tactical voting opportunity for people on the right.
>> Briefly, Neil, would you back Farage as PM?
Yes, I would if he was the one who was the most likely to get rid of this Labour government, and I I'm Although I'm an admirer of Kemi Badenoch, and I think she's done an amazing job, one of the most difficult jobs in British politics, being the leader of the opposition.
And but with the baggage that she carries, the history of her party, certainly in the last 14 years, and probably in the last 30, I do think that that's an insuperable obstacle for her to surmount. So, in the circumstances that we're now in, I do think Reform and Nigel Farage offer the best opportunity that we can see at the moment.
>> How interesting. What a considered response, and a significant response there from Neil Hamilton, who is noticeably warming to the Reform project, not without reservations.
Meanwhile, the BBC are now bringing in bailiffs, debt collectors, to collect the license fee, going after cash-strapped Brits to pay for this organization.
Run Rajit is in Harrow. Hello, Rajit.
What's your view on this?
We'll come to you, Rajit, in just a moment. John's in Cambridgeshire. Good morning, John.
Good morning, afternoon.
>> say afternoon. I got to get used to this shift, haven't I? Um, yeah, so we were going to come to the Hamiltons in just a moment, but the BBC are using debt collectors and bailiffs now. Do you watch the BBC?
I haven't paid my TV license for over 3 years. I will I will continue to refuse to pay my TV license.
I don't I think it's a very become a very biased political backdrop for certain governments and what they preach is not what we should be something we what we should be hearing.
Now of course John I would never condone breaking the law not paying the license fee while watching the BBC. You don't pay the license fee but do you break the rules by watching telly?
No, I only watch um Streaming streaming.
Yeah, streaming and then and then recently I've seen there's been rumor that we'd have to start paying our TV the next side of the next Netflix will come under the BBC license which I think is wrong because you're already paying a subscription for certain channels. Yeah.
How how does a BBC benefit if all that if they've got to pay all the Netflix and Prime and all that.
>> Well I it makes no sense at all. John briefly if you can what would you do with the BBC?
I don't it goes commercial and has adverts or we get rid of it totally. It should not be supported by um tax paying people. I'm guessing that like millions you used to love the Beeb and don't anymore.
It used to be until probably the beginning of this century it used to be a really good especially the world news and the BBC but and so the last 20 years it has really gone downhill.
Well there you go John. Thank you for a brilliant call and I'm very lucky and very privileged that you listen to and watch talk instead which of course costs you nowt. Neil and Christine Christine let me ask you John speaks for millions doesn't he?
Yeah absolutely he does. I wish I could take such a principal stand and just say I'm never going to watch BBC so we're not going to pay the license fee but we do occasionally. I mean it probably costs us I mean what is the license fee now? I don't know.
>> 160, 170 quid odd. I know. It probably cost us at least a pound a minute the amount of BBC that we watch in the year possibly two pounds a minute but you know, we're law-abiding citizens and so we do watch it very occasionally.
So we do pay but no, I mean it's it's daylight robbery. The BBC's days as it is now currently funded must be numbered. It's utterly ludicrous. More and more people are turning away.
They're just not worth the money and the idea that they're going to put stick well they won't presumably put people in prison for not paying it because they don't put rapists in prison, do they? So why would you put a life dodger in prison?
They're just spending more of that license money pursuing these poor people who can't afford the license. It's outrageous. They should have adverts in all the popular I mean what is it?
Strictly Come Dancing. How many millions watch Strictly? 5 million. 5 million.
Well, there you are. Stick a couple of adverts in the middle of Strictly and you have probably half the license fee.
It's it's a nonsense. And I stand corrected. It's now 180 pounds a year which Neil is a colossal amount of cash.
Well, it is and a television tax is wrong in principle in my view. It might have been justifiable when it was started 100 years ago because then there was only the BBC and of course in those days it was a truly impartial body as well and the problem that we've got today is that its remit has had to expand as broadcasting has become you know much more complicated and and and widespread in in its offer to the public. But it's impossible to fund an organization which covers all elements of entertainment through a tax.
So it's impractical as well as immoral because you know, why should we be forced to to pay for things that we don't watch? We actually watch very little on any mainstream television channel, not just the BBC. You know, most of the the listings are wall-to-wall rubbish anyway. Yeah.
You know, I'd much rather watch the rubbish I like that we can get on YouTube or wherever.
And we shouldn't have to pay for for the stuff that we don't consume. So, yes, I you know, can see an argument for public service broadcasting, but most of what BBC does is not public service broadcasting. And if all broadcasters had a public service remit for for a portion of their output, then that would be, I think, perfectly justifiable, but I don't see why the taxpayer or the individual should pay a regressive tax because this is not related in any way to income or ability to pay to fund something that most people don't watch anymore. Uh briefly, if you can, Christine, migrants scramble for British citizenship ahead of a tightening around the rules for indefinite leave to remain. More than 300,000 refugees, migrant workers, and their dependents applied for citizenship in the year to March. Are we ever going to fix Britain's immigration nightmare?
Uh no, not by the look of it and not until somebody gets a grip of it with an iron fist. I mean, how many have come over this weekend already? A thousand in the boat? I think it is nearly a thousand.
No, I mean, it's like emptying a leaking ship with a sieve. I mean, it it it's crazy. And all the government seems to be able to do is publish these figures to say that net migration has gone down.
Well, yes, it has, but the wrong people are leaving and the wrong people are arriving. Well, should I say the right people are leaving, but they're wrong because they shouldn't be leaving.
They're the sort of people that this country needs. Hope I've made myself clear.
But of Of they're scrambling. Of course they're scrambling. And you know, nothing seems to be done. People are refused leave to stay and then they just disappear into the system and goodness knows where they are. Most definitely.
Christine and Neil, so wonderful to see you. Do you have plans for the bank holiday weekend? I would eat my hat if you don't.
Well, darling, it's nearly over.
>> Yeah, but surely surely you've saved your best till last. I will say that Neil doesn't look like he's peaked.
Of course I'm not peaked. I'm delighted to be on your show. I will listen.
>> Honestly, I'll tell you Mark, it it because we're wonderfully basically retired, it makes no difference to us whether it's a bank holiday, a Saturday, you know, or Sunday. It doesn't matter.
The days are just the days. So, we're just having a fabulous time. Well, what we're doing is enjoying these wonderful warm balmy evenings by entertaining friends for suppers when you can sit outside till midnight in your t-shirts.
Any gardening, Neil? Are you going to spend the afternoon on your knees?
>> and I've cleaned up specially for you.
So good, please.
So good to see you. Go and pour yourselves a large gin and tonic and we'll speak soon. My thanks to very good friends of talk, good friends of mine, the one and only Neil and Christine Hamilton. Another dear friend is Rafe Heydel-Mankoo, who I'm delighted to say is going to stay with us for the next few minutes. Of course, we're here until 1:00. And what about this for a story?
Has Donald Trump just saved the great British holiday? More on that next.
>> Hello and welcome to Down the Local, the show that goes from pub to pub across the country speaking to the punters about the subjects driving us all nuts at the moment. Treats or reads, treats or feeds, treats or my kids. I don't really know Megamouth. I know Megamouth is six and that's about it. I don't know about anyone else and I don't know where this is going. I have zero percent beers and I talk. Raise me the flag like saying is is symptomatic of the of this desperation.
>> Is public transport good value for money? No, it [ __ ] isn't. You really don't like speaking to people.
>> No.
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Is a peace deal in the Middle East in the offing with overnight reports that Donald Trump has hammered out a deal with the Iranian regime to reopen the Strait of Hormuz and prevent Iran from having nuclear weapons. Who better to ask than Britain's favorite historian Martin Whitlock. Hello Martin, good afternoon.
Good morning. Oh, I'm sorry, good afternoon.
>> Well, I know I'm still on the bank holiday Monday.
>> I'm the same. I'm recalibrating like crazy. Wonderful to see you. Um, are we in the mood to celebrate this news?
Well, the shape of the the shape of the deal as it appears at the moment is offering Iran sanctions relief, unlocking of 20 billion dollars of frozen assets. This in return for Iran reopening the Strait of Hormuz and and agreeing to negotiate on its nuclear program over the next 60 days starting on 5th of June in Pakistan.
And the US is demanding the unfreezing of assets in Qatar, which apparently we think is about 6 billion dollars of Iranian assets be made conditional on progress on the handover of Iran's enriched uranium. And it reportedly also requires Iran and the USA and their allies to cease fighting and for Israel to end its offensive in Lebanon. So, if this succeeds, there are definitely some positives. If it ends the Iranian nuclear program and Iran gives up current stocks of enriched uranium.
If it opens the Strait of Hormuz. And clearly the war has severely damaged the Iranian regime and its proxy Hezbollah in Lebanon. But there are some negatives here as well, of course. Because in many ways we're sort of back to the nuclear negotiations taking place at the start of the war. And in this key area, the question must be what's the war achieved after many civilian deaths, economic impact, and how much this is better than the Obama 2015 deal, which did lead to reduction in enriched uranium, that Trump frequently derides. But now we seem to be emerging something that's a bit similar to that. Israel won't be happy at restrictions on its actions.
And it's also revealed the asymmetrical nature of war between a superpower and an ideologically entrenched weaker regime. Made the US look like a destabilizing ally. China benefits from that. Russia's benefited from rise in oil prices. The Iranian regime is entrenched as much as ever. Then that's why many Republican hawks in the USA are not happy. So clearly, there could be some real positives after this. But it has to be asked, what has the actual war in itself achieved that couldn't have been achieved by hard negotiation a couple of months ago? And finally, it will be months until shipping supply chains are back to pre-war levels, even if there's a deal this week. And so I don't want to I don't want to rain on the parade, but clearly there are positives, but there are I have as well, Mark.
>> And the problem now, do you fear that Iran could weaponize the Strait of Hormuz for the foreseeable future?
I think that's the danger. I mean, clearly that's always been in the mix.
It's a very, very powerful option for the Iranians. But I think in many ways, more than ever before, this current situation has revealed to them just how powerful that is, but also how vulnerable Gulf allies of the US are to attacks on their energy infrastructure, as well as the movement of things like oil, natural gas, and fertilizers as well. So, that is another unexpected, well, perhaps perhaps we should have expected it, but certainly an unintended outcome of this war, that the Iranian regime, still very entrenched, but weaker, of course, of course, but still very entrenched, and clearly now realizes just the power of even the threat. That's the thing, you see, just threatening action in the Gulf of in the Strait of Hormuz, sorry, will mean that ships don't go through there because of the huge huge insurance premium. So, they don't even actually have to strike at anything. They just have to say they might or they will, and ships will then be going right the way around the African continent to avoid this, which of course puts huge amount of price on product because the insurance leaps once there's a threat of war in the area, even without action, military action. Of course, Rafe Heydel-Mankoo is with me in the studio. And Rafe, it's difficult to appraise this war, isn't it? And listening to Martin, it's a 50/50 really. Yes, Iran has been weakened militarily, but now they've familiarized themselves with their ability to weaponize the Strait of Hormuz. Um, do you think that this decision to go into Iran by the Americans and the Israelis was an historic mistake? Yes. Well, like Martin, I'm also an historian, and I've said for a long time that America going into Iraq and Afghanistan was equivalent of Britain in the Boer War. The Boer War exposed to the world that the greatest power in the world, Britain, wasn't actually infallible. And the same thing happened with Iraq and Afghanistan, and everything else since then has shown America's continued decline. And the decision to go into Iran has merely accentuated America's decline. Yes, you could say it's a victory because essentially they've they've got a nuclear deal perhaps on the cards. They got rid of the air force is gone. open up the Straits of Hormuz, but the regime is still there. We were promised regime change. And of course, we have not still got no deal. There would have been no deal at all on ballistic programs and on the proxies. The proxies are still going to basically be able to be controlled by Iran. And you've got the economic lifeline going out there. So yes, there's no prolonged war, the straits are opened, but neither side can claim a victory. Remember, Trump was really calling for unconditional surrender. At the end of the day, this was a huge embarrassment.
The great test is would he have gone in now knowing what he knew if he hadn't and the reality is he would never have gone in if he had known how things would be. Just as Putin would never have gone into the Ukraine war. Martin, briefly if you can, do you think Donald Trump regrets this war?
I think so. I think Rafe's absolutely right. I think if Trump had any idea it was going to pan out the way it has done, he would not go in. I think he expected a very quick victory, decapitating the regime, regime change, and then some kind of well, unconditional surrender. It clearly has not taken into account what an apocalyptic ideological regime the Iranians are. But we all knew that and how entrenched they are. This must be taken into account. It doesn't mean to say you give in to these regimes, but it means to say you need to work out just how resilient they are before you take military action because they don't just crumble at first strike.
Martin, a deep pleasure and privilege to have you on the show. Britain's favorite historian, Martin Whitlock, with a fascinating overview. It does look like a peace deal is on the way. It does look does it like our inflationary misery at the petrol pumps may come to an end. We might get that holiday overseas, but both Rafe and Martin argue a very high price has been paid. Richard is in North London. How are you, Richard? Oh, I forgive me. I've got a bit carried away.
You see, I move at such a rate of knots.
Rafe, you've no idea. I'm like Lewis Hamilton on this show, metaphorically.
I'll tell you what we're going to do.
We're going to get to your calls next, and I'm delighted to say one of the most high-profile entrepreneurs in the country, Charlie Mullins, joins us to react to the news that Nigel Farage wants to end income tax on overtime. Big Charlie Mullins is next.
Across the UK on DAB Plus on YouTube, on your mobile and on your side.
This is talk.
You are listening to talk, Mark Dolan in for the brilliant Julia Hartley Brewer.
I've got the privilege of 1:00 till 4:00 all of this week in for Ian Collins. So, do join me tomorrow at 1:00 if you can.
Back for weekend breakfast as always at the weekend. How are we going to fix our broken politics? What is the future for the country? Richard is in London.
Hello, Richard. Hello, Mark. Good to talk to you again.
>> You too. What do you think's going on here? Uh if you remember if if you recall I rang up and suggested that we that we suggested approach to welfare reform by really a break with with the Labour 1945 welfare state consensus and moving towards a sort of what you could call a pay-as-you-go.
Uh effectively the idea being um that that you wouldn't have the the um Eldorado or the sort of la-la land pull of the gigantic welfare state we have at the moment. Rather people would pay into um an account um and that would guarantee uh basic basic and temporary health care and temporary um unemployment benefit care similar to what similar to the original uh Lloyd George welfare state. Um well, I think this is a good idea. What you're saying, Richard, is no more blank check.
Well, and and the thing is Mark the fundamental thing is I mean the the chap the chap you had the chap you had you look you look a bit like Max Clifford the chap you had the chap you had sort of white hair, didn't he? Um he he he was saying stuff like um uh Shivani's done some good work uh a different to her predecessor. I mean that's not really true. I mean we we Shivani's got rid of the veranda thing.
Um and I think we just have to acknowledge something um the left and the Labour Party have been trying to create a different country for about 80 years now.
Um it's it's it's characterized by two things. Much bigger um in involvement um of the state in our lives. Um, started with nationalization, unions, now we have this massive now we have this massive welfare state. Um, and secondly, markets, the idea of the multicultural society. Again, it's so so something else which which And the multicultural society is a socialist ideology. Yes, yes, and it's happened throughout Europe. And I I think what gets missed is that there's there's there's two F's for for Where is the being rich?
Fabians? It's going to be it's going to be okay. Um, the um, it's the Fabianism in Britain and it's the Frankfurt School on the continent.
These essentially, um, uh, these essentially are Trojan horses for the left marching through the institutions. So So the Fabians in Britain, um, essentially took over the Labour Party which started as a fairly soft, cuddly thing about >> working class uh, voters, uh, the unions. A fair pay a fair pay for a fair day's work.
>> Yes, yes, but but before you know where you are, um, that they they they they started using the the language of Trotsky. Even in the early 60s, anybody who anybody who challenged, um, um, uh, mass immigration, um, was labeled by someone like Hugh Gaitskell who was supposed to be a centrist. Um, Hugh Gaitskell called anybody who criticized mass immigration at the time a racist. Now, that's a that's a trick out of Trotsky's book and it gives the game away. The Labour Party has been has been taken over by people with a essentially a Marxist headset.
The same thing happens in Europe.
Mark, imagine imagine, um, um, um, a politician in China or Japan saying, "We want to make China or Japan multicultural."
They wouldn't last 5 minutes.
>> Good luck with that. Richard, I could listen to you all all What a fantastic knowledgeable man you are and really enjoyed that conversation. Call me again soon. Let's pick up that chat. You're totally right. I think that the left have completely lost the plot. I think eight decades is not an exaggeration.
Look at the state of the country in the '70s with the unions out of control and here we go again. Thank you for that.
Nigel Farage has announced that if he becomes Prime Minister, he will get rid of income tax on overtime. Let's get reaction from one of the country's most high-profile entrepreneurs, Charlie Mullins, chairman of We Fix London and founder of Pimlico Plumbers. Hello, Charlie. Good afternoon.
Yeah, hi Jonathan. Hi. Really good to have you back on the show. Can I ask for your reaction to this policy from Farage to remove income tax from people working overtime?
A brilliant idea. Probably the best idea I've probably heard in politics in the last 30 years. I think that will encourage many people to work. Um it it will encourage people that don't work into the workplace. It's a brilliant idea. A lot of people don't want to work because of the tax, um which is which is a living cuz I think we're being taxed about 10 times a day on everything. You know, petrol, food, um you know, on on the roads we're paying for the roads. So, to cut down on tax is the best way to get people back into work back into work. Undeniably on that. And Charlie, do you have employees at We Fix London who work overtime?
Oh, yeah, of course. We're 24-hour. Um the fact that they get good money is good enough to bring them in, but of course it will bring in more people if they're not paying uh tax on on their earnings, which I totally think is unfair because of we all know where the tax goes. It all goes on lazy people that don't work. Most definitely and it's really tough, isn't it, when your employees have reached their contracted hours? When they go into overtime, you know, this is this could be a 12-hour day. It's back-breaking work. They shouldn't be taxed on that. That's right. Well, I'm going to say it's back-breaking work. I mean, I come up with this idea like that the Gen Z are the highest burnout people. There's also the laziest uh people out there, but I they written there they they're the most burnt out people. They don't do nothing. Yeah.
You know, so it's all nonsense, really.
I mean, if they if they actually worked to survive, they would go to work. The problem we have is we're giving money to people for doing nothing. And whenever you do that, people won't go to work.
But we don't have a problem we fixed.
Everybody comes to work. There's not enough hours in the day. We work 24 hours a day, and they're very proud of it. And overtime is an important part of that business model. And for the boys and girls that work for you, quite often the overtime is that critical amount of money that allows them to pay down the debt, save up for a car, maybe a deposit, or or the annual holiday, right? Yeah, look, well, if you want to have a better life, you you need to go to work and do more hours. I mean, the old company that I had, Pimlico Plumbers, they've stopped their late-night work so uh because they can't handle they can't handle the situation with us now. And, you know, they're they're doing themselves more harm than good cuz engineers are coming to us saying, "Look, we want overtime. We want more money. We used to more money." So, to to to do away with um you know, not doing overtime or taxing you on overtime um is so wrong.
But believe me, what Reform are doing, they're getting more and more voters behind them. Remember, we're 3 years away from the election, and the way Reform are performing, then with with a move like this, they're definitely getting into number 10. Well, that's very interesting. We'll come to that, Charlie. Do you worry that this policy could be exploited by companies? Could they fix the system a little bit? Could there be corruption based upon this new policy?
Um well, I suppose you always got someone can have a little fiddle up and have a mess about, but anybody with half a brain, you know, if you've earned 20 pounds an hour, you want 20 pounds an hour, wouldn't you? Yeah.
You wouldn't allow anybody to start taking money off you that that shouldn't do. But, I think more and more employees um will will encourage it, and it'll just be a knowing thing. I mean, to go to work and not not have to pay tax is like a dream, isn't it? Nobody would leave the UK. Um unfortunately, you know, there will be many people that will suffer, and and the the right people, you know, that that have disabilities or can't go to work, I feel, you know, sorry for them, and they should be helped more. But, the majority of them that are on the on the dole, probably over 50% are just ponces, and taxpayers are paying for them.
Charlie, you you are one of the country's most high-profile and successful entrepreneurs. You founded Pimlico Plumbers, which was a great success, and now we fix London, which is growing exponentially.
Were you flattered by Reform UK's decision to choose a highly respected local plumber to run the by-election campaign in Makerfield? Yeah, great idea. I've spoken to the chap. He's the first plumber to do it.
Um and I wish him all all the good luck in the world. We need more business people in it. So, another bright move, you know, Nigel Farage is going to get more and more business people into politics, and uh hopefully I'll be one of them helping out with getting the youngsters into work. That's what we need. We don't need career politicians. We don't need the busybodies. We don't need the nonsenses, the Peter Fallows, we don't need all them pests. We need proper people in business. And as soon as you get business people in business, it will work. Uh Robert Kenyon of course is the respected local plumber who is Makerfield born and bred. And of course that's how you started your career, Charlie, leaving school quite young and training as a plumber. The rest is history. And this by-election, well it's going to be tight, isn't it? Do you think Reform can win?
Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. I mean, you know, everybody loves a plumber. So, undoubtedly. Well, definitely. And Charlie, reading between the lines of your previous answer, are you suggesting you could have a role in a fuel former uh sorry, in a future Reform UK government? Would you serve under Nigel Farage in some capacity?
Undoubtedly. I mean, we're 3 years away.
I'm making plans for that provided I'm not brain dead, of course.
>> Well, I've got to say you look very healthy, Charlie. I mean, would you Can I ask you, if I'm not speaking out of school here, would you consider running for Parliament as an MP, or do you see yourself more as an advisor to a Reform government? Uh I think I'll give the both a bash cuz, you know, if you go in for two and you wind up with one, how bad's that? You know what I mean?
>> Well, listen, that is breaking news at 12:43 in the afternoon. Charlie Mullins, who let's be very clear about this, is an OBE. Charlie Mullins OBE, one of the most respected entrepreneurs in the country, has said that he's willing to run for Parliament at the next election.
And Charlie, what about the economy at the moment? What's your view of Rachel Reeves and her policies?
Oh dear. I mean, look, she's she's she's complete rubbish.
She doesn't know what she's doing. She's She's She's brought this um sort of What do you call it? Near near enough um you know, we're We're a recession. She's brought it on herself by being stupid, you know. She hasn't got a clue about um accounts. She hasn't irrespective of she's gone to some college or something uh to learn it.
She's got no idea whatsoever. I mean, I I wouldn't even trust her to go out shopping on her own. Well, I mean, would you employ Rachel Reeves in a business of yours?
No, well, no. It's the answer is no. I wouldn't I wouldn't let her in for an interview. She's not She's She's not the right material. I mean, look, probably most of the cabinet are not right material because they've not been they've not been in a proper job. So, I wouldn't employ anyone from Labour if I'm being perfectly honest. I mean, they're doing a great job of messing up the UK and they're doing a great job of losing their seats so they won't be in power in 3 years' time. They're absolutely doing a marvelous job and Nigel Farage is benefiting on that. I mean, they you know, he's so far ahead at the moment. And when the election comes, I believe they have played some very clever move and uh we've voted him in for sure. Uh briefly, Charlie, really quick cuz we know you're a busy man. Are you worried that the political right are split? Are you worried about the Tories competing with Reform and canceling each other out?
Well, of course, there's that problem there. I mean, they're the crafty so-and-sos, aren't they? Um you have got that problem there, but I don't Well, at that moment, we lost the brilliant Charlie Mullins, but what a great interview it was. I think you'll agree, very compelling. Charlie Mullins OBE. Hard to disagree briefly, Rafe, with what Charlie had to say. Yeah, right on the money as well. And uh maybe maybe he could have hired uh Rachel as a cleaner or something like that. She probably got that ability to do though.
She she probably will make a mess of that quite literally as well as she has with our economy. That's it. But Charlie is a self-made man. He's come from nothing, built a business. He lives in the real world. And someone like Charlie and this establishment, you know, the government, they're so separate now, aren't they?
>> Well, this is so crucial cuz you know, we've said several times here and some of your guests have, that of course there's nobody on the front bench of the Labour Party has any business experience, has any idea how to actually run a government business. But then you think, is this just due to incompetence?
Is it because only they haven't run a business that they're running the economy into the ground? Because surely they have they could seek advice if they wanted to. Surely they do watch programs of people like Charlie speak and point out how disastrous raising national insurance and other things have been.
And so therefore you can only have the conclusion that they are deliberately putting far left ideology ahead of Britain's national interest. Remember, these are the people who gave it wanted to give away the Chagos Islands, not for any advantage to Britain, but because it was an ideological far left thing to do.
So people that can do that are the same people I think who could quite happily mismanage the economy or make the wrong decisions because it's the emotional thing to do. It feels like it's the best thing to do. Not to grant zero hour contracts to essentially, you know, do every Well, everything that they've done recently.
>> Minimum wage which has caused youth unemployment.
>> put the minimum wage up, lift the benefit on the two two child benefit cap. All of these things are economically damaging, but they seem like the sorts of things people on the left should do.
Talk radio star Alex Phillips is rolling cheese in the countryside in a very what can I say, compromising outfit.
That's next.
>> Hello and welcome to Down the Local, the show that goes from pub to pub across the country speaking to the punters about the subjects driving us all nuts at the moment.
>> Drinks or reads? Reads or feeds? Reads or my mates? I don't really know Megan Markle. I know Megan Markle exists, that's about it. I don't know about anyone else and I don't know where this is going. I have zero percent beer and I talk.
That race myth plan I think is is symptomatic of of this desperation.
>> Is public transport good value for money? No, it [ __ ] isn't. You really don't like speaking to people.
>> No.
Across the UK on DAB Plus on YouTube on your mobile and on your side.
This is talk.
You are listening to talk. Lovely to have your company. It is 12:49 and I've got to say that talk star Alex Phillips has made quite a splash in the countryside. She's been rolling cheese and she joins us now live on location.
Alex, where are you?
This is basically where I was born and bred. I actually broke my arm on this hill. Uh but I've been at the annual Gloucester Cooper's Cheese Roll. Um, it's a it's a it's celebration that people don't know where it came from. Is it from Roman times? Is it from Pagan times? But basically every single year, it's an extremely steep hill. People fly from all around the world to chase down basically a vertical drop after a wheel of double Gloucester. And uh, yeah, it's been an amazing day. You can see the crowds behind me here. During the advert break, actually I just got ambushed by a load of sheep. They were like practically jumping over me. Um, but there's just thousands of people here. There's lots of strange Pagan rituals, uh, Morris dancing. It it's it's incredible. Um, a German won the race. Uh, but Italians were there. Uh, people from South Africa, people from Japan. Uh, there was the Italian guy who had actually flown in yesterday last night. Did the cheese roll and he's heading straight to the airport to go home. Just spectacular. Well, you've met and interviewed the winner who is a German called Tom Kophke. Let's take a listen to that chat.
Tom, any advice to people considering cheese rolling now that you're the champion?
You got to you got to commit all the way. There's not no half-assing. Send it. Full send. What training did you do?
What's involved to make your body tough enough to survive?
Um, I mean, I do a lot of ultra running.
So, trails keep your ankles nice and loose. That's about it. It's more about the mental part than the physical part.
Where have you traveled from today and tell us a bit about the journey getting here? You've come from Germany, haven't you? Uh, I'm from Germany. I came in from South Africa.
So, before this I I was in the bush with the lions. So, overcome your fear and then you come here. What's scarier, lions or cheese?
This is way scarier than lions. Really?
Look, I'm telling you, standing up there and looking down that drop, it gets you.
And what's going through your mind when you're going down the hill?
Not much. You're just so locked in. And then you send it. It starts and then it goes.
So, we'll see you again?
We'll see. Uh well, all will be revealed in due time. And what are you going to do with the cheese?
>> Share it with everyone of the other competitors. That's like a tradition we have. Yeah. Thanks, Tom. Thank you so much.
>> Just uh just brilliant stuff. Alex, cheese rolling is notoriously competitive and cutthroat. Is there any evidence of doping?
Oh, do you know what? I think basically this is the evidence of doping. But you have people actually stand at the bottom of the hill ready to rugby tackle people to sort of, you know, stop their inertia, stop them smashing through the gates at the bottom. There's just a few bales of hay. And they were all sitting there with their cans of cider, some of them smoking cigarettes. This event is actually technically illegal, but the people of Gloucester just wouldn't have it. They they come back every single year. And the Gloucestershire Wildlife Trust had to just say, "You know what?
It's going to happen. We can't stop it."
There are signs up everywhere saying, "You're here at your own risk."
Well, Alex, I know it's a warm day, but apparently the locals are going to have a whip round and get you some clothes.
What is wrong with my cider pouch?
>> I don't know where to look. I'm a married man. I mean, this is a family show. I believe that YouTube have already taken us off.
Oh, come on.
Honestly, I think I'm actually overdressed compared to other people.
>> Can I say you look absolutely stunning as always? Alex, it's so much fun this, isn't it? And just one of those ridiculous British traditions, which is why we love this country.
It really is. And it's things like this, you know, this is our heritage. And what's so beautiful for me as a Gloucester girl, coming back here is seeing all the people from all around the world. You have film crews from all around the world, people flying in, like I said, to take part. It's one of these events that's just beamed out internationally. I actually met a Californian couple, and they're taking their kids around loads of niche sporting events, and I think this is their eighth out of 12 that they've done.
Um and the guy from the Guinness World Records was here. Uh it's just it it's a really amazing weird day, which is kind of what a a lot of rural England is all about. Uh well, it's magic, as are you. Listen, Alex, we love your show at the weekend. You're tearing up trees at the moment. Everyone loves the show. Cannot wait to have you back on air here at talk. Enjoy your cider and enjoy your camembert, and we'll catch up soon. My thanks to talk superstar Alex Phillips. Great fun.
Dennis is in Nottinghamshire. Dennis, we're being told Andy Burnham is the king of the north. Is that true?
Well, as you would see on TV, all we hear or see is not the Andy Burnham. When you go into the main square in Manchester, it's full of drugs, social misbehavior, drunks, locals mistreated by them.
Are the people of Maghull blind for this?
If I will suppose if Burnham does get his uh the uh MP, he will then become uh not known to Maghull because he won't be there.
>> No. Road abroad most of the time. And my mind is made up by saying, "Maghull, wake up. You We all need a plumber sometimes, and yours is right now. Vote for him." Dennis, thank you for that.
We'll speak soon. Brilliant call. Enjoy your Monday. Lorraine's in Chelmsford.
Good afternoon, Lorraine.
Oh, good afternoon, Mark. Lovely to have you. Listen, it looks like Rupert Lowe and Restore could stop Reform from winning this by-election. What's your view?
Absolutely horrific.
And what really annoys me though, more than anything, Mark, is I think it's actually a Tory proxy.
I'll be honest.
Um I would also like to say that um Rupert Lowe does not run his own Twitter account. It is run by a chap called um, Alistair Harrison.
And even that was actually acknowledged by Ben Abib after his comment that he was the only one that turned up at 10 the the the rally last weekend.
>> So, you're not you're not having Rupert.
You don't buy it. You're not a fan, Lorraine.
I'm not a fan and I also would like to say about Elon Musk pushing through the algorithms because all I've got on my timeline is um, restore, restore, restore. Um, I believe that um, Rupert Lowe has um, companies in net zero.
And I wonder if it's not um, not some sort of agreement there. Well, of course now Lorraine, as you will be well aware, Rupert Lowe is not here to defend himself. He will likely deny such links or allegations. But you're entitled to your view. What about Nigel then, briefly, Lorraine? Is he the real deal or is he a bit of a diva? Do you worry about Nigel? Not at all. To me, Nigel has has fought for the last 35 years.
He's put He's put everything on the line. Um, he got us out the EU.
And now Oh, that's another thing. I get people say that oh, Nigel's a Tory.
Well, Nigel left um, the Conservative Party 35 years ago, I believe, to get us out of the EU.
And of course a year a 10 years ago, Lorraine, he was there in Dover talking about the boat crossings and he's been proved right. Lorraine, I really enjoyed your call. Please call me again soon.
Thanks for all the calls, texts, and messages, the voice notes as well. My brilliant team, Ted and the gang, uh, Janner of course, the fantastic Kieran and Mark on the buttons. And Rafe Heydel-Mankoo thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. You're probably off now to have a slimline gin and tonic, aren't you? Maybe some Pimm's as it's bank holiday. I think you've earned it.
Petrie Hoskins is here and it's Petrie, it's so nice to see you. Uh you're normally on in the evening and what a rare bank holiday treat to have you on during the day.
>> treat to come in during the day in the daylight. I'm a bit like a vampire though, a bit like oh, keep away from me.
Um but it's lovely to see you. Well, you too. the memo. Yeah, we did about the white clothing. It was a bright and sunny day as actually. And actually, it is a bank holiday. We do want to have a bit of fun as well, don't we?
>> We do. But there is some There are some stories we're going to talk about. One of them actually, I'm fascinated by this, is the um enhanced games. Have you seen this? Yes, amazing story.
>> said that there should be the the two, but now I'm looking at this, I'm thinking well, perhaps not. But but >> No, I think we should You know, Rave's on something today. Is he? Yeah.
What's enhanced games? Games. They are It's like the Olympics on steroids. Oh, really?
>> Yeah.
Well, I'm not on steroids, definitely.
Rave Rave Rave is on the keto diet and did you know that he is his body's a temple? He's lost five stone. Doesn't he look fantastic? I'm very careless, you know, very careless, but yes. You look very well.
But but no, I think they would be very entertaining, the enhanced games.
>> Yeah. Okay.
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