Minister’s Failed Pascal’s Wager Argument | The Best Of The Atheist Experience

Ajouté : 2026-05-15

[00:00:00]I actually have a couple questions. I I'm actually a minister of the Christian faith. Okay. And I just want to I don't like to knock other religions or knock other beliefs until I have a complete understanding of them.

[00:00:14]Okay, good idea. You [laughter] know, where a lot of Christians >> Then it's okay to knock them. I'm sorry.

[00:00:18]I have No, no, no, I'm just Go ahead.

[00:00:20]After [laughter] I find after I get the complete facts about them, then I can distinguish for myself if it's true or false.

[00:00:26]>> fair enough.

[00:00:28]>> [clears throat] >> So, my my questions to you are is there like or was there like a driving force that that turned your attention against God or to to make you just, you know, I mean, did you were you ever exposed to God in any way or did you just >> Oh, yeah. from a early age just didn't believe he existed or All right. I'll start off really quick, you can take over.

[00:00:51]I was actually brought up Catholic, went to church every week. My dad brought me.

[00:00:55]Um Although I I must say that early on, I never really believed all that much. I always had questions and doubts. I never saw any kind of direct proof or evidence of God. Um and so I always had questions and doubts. When I got to like early college age, I had basically decided that there there's most likely something out there because so many people in the world believe in God. Right. But I was I was pretty much convinced that, you know, the Christians aren't right, the Buddhists aren't right, the you know, Jewish aren't right.

[00:01:28]There's something, just don't know exactly what it is.

[00:01:31]Um and then basically as I thought about it more, read more into ideas and just started looking at actual science, I said, "No, it's a lot of wishful thinking.

[00:01:41]It's a lot of you know, it's it's a good idea. It's a comforting thought, which is why it's so powerful.

[00:01:48]Uh-huh. Um but in terms of, you know, actual reality, uh I I don't believe that there is any God or anything like that, no. So. No. Yeah.

[00:01:57]Um Uh my I was raised uh in the Methodist church and my parents after they retired from their from their legitimate careers uh both became method- Methodist ministers. Mhm.

[00:02:11]Um I I never felt much in the way of of a connection to the religion, but I played along as a kid because it seemed to be the thing to do. Mhm.

[00:02:25]Um once I got out of the house and was and was free to think for myself and make my own decisions, um it the one thing that I struggled with was this idea that it was uh that it was somehow disrespectful or dangerous to question. And I I remember very distinctly reaching the point in my life where I said, "Well, any god that I would be willing to worship Mhm.

[00:02:55]couldn't possibly have a problem with me taking a good, long, hard, careful, critical look at what I was being told >> Mhm. and and at the evidence around me and making up my mind."

[00:03:09]And uh boy, it was like within the next 3 days I was an atheist. So, okay. Yeah, cuz there was cuz there was nothing there was nothing behind it. So So, you felt no anchorage in in the religion.

[00:03:20]You felt no anchorage that there was a >> Anchorage? I'm not even sure what you mean by that. I had You had like a sound emotional connection to it. You had no sound proof. Well, no. Right. Okay.

[00:03:31]Well, um I I don't mean to sound disrespectful in any way, but >> God, but >> [laughter] >> but I I honestly think that that's speaking out of ignorance. Okay. Because uh if you read in the Bible, which is is is the book the book of life for Christians or anybody that believes in God.

[00:03:52]>> Yeah.

[00:03:53]There's a numerous There are numerous occasions where God has allowed people to question him. Uh-huh.

[00:04:00]It's Now, I know you know >> that's No, no, no. I don't know. I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that that uh uh that I think necessarily that the Christian religion says you shouldn't question. Mhm. I'm not saying that.

[00:04:14]>> Right. But a lot of people that I knew who were religious had that attitude.

[00:04:19]>> Uh-huh.

[00:04:19]And I did feel personally, whether it was from the religion or not, I did feel personally like there was some um like there was some threat or fear or danger or something there that I had to get past.

[00:04:33]>> Mhm. Right? Wherever that came from. I'm not going to blame Christianity for it.

[00:04:37]I am just I'm just saying once I did get past it it's really obvious to me that there was no God within just a few days.

[00:04:44]Oh, okay. Well, on on that note um I like um actually, when I asked you had you ever been exposed to God you told me that both of you told me about the church that you grew up in and that you were raised in the church.

[00:05:01]>> Uh-huh.

[00:05:02]Um in in all my in I'm not going to say I'm a biblical scholar or anything close to it, but I have my own study, you know. I studied it to for myself.

[00:05:12]And in all my studies I found out that going to church is not always an exposure to God. In fact, it could be a big a bigger hindrance from God than it is to an exposure because, as you know, everybody talks about it. You find most of the funniest things, most of the most critical things, you know, people most critical people. So, are you going back to So, are you going back to the idea of a more of a personal experience? No, no, no. No, no. Not a Not a personal experience because, you know, God I'm not going to say God doesn't speak to everybody, but you'd have to be really blessed for something like that to happen. You know what I'm saying? I'm a minister and and that I've never had nothing to do with >> Well, okay. I mean, it could be it could be that there's a god that only reveals himself to certain blessed people.

[00:05:57]Doesn't change a thing for us. As far as we're concerned, we look at those people and say, you know, they've they're claiming these things that don't seem to have any basis in reality. We see no reason to take them seriously, so we don't. Uh okay, but my my my thing with this is the the Bible actually says um it says, you know, try God. It says it says the Bible in actual words it says taste and see. Okay. But, the problem there is that we have no the Bible is uh leather-bound, got some pages in it.

[00:06:31]Um there millions of books out there that have the same amount of evidence to back them up. Right. Um including, you know, I mean, any fiction book that you care to pick up. We have no reason to believe that this one is any more special than any of the other books out there. So, until I get some evidence saying that this God in this Bible is true and real, then I'm not going to take its claims and follow its instructions any more than I'm going to say that I should be jumping down [clears throat] rabbit holes looking for the Queen of Spades to, you know, bring me to a tea party with >> it's the Queen of Hearts.

[00:07:08]>> Okay, sorry. Queen of Know your Alice in Wonderland.

[00:07:11]Well, uh Um to go looking for, you know, rabbits to have dinner parties with.

[00:07:15]Yeah, okay. So, so Um so you you have to boo Well, you I I assume that you take the the scientific route of of us being in our existence and all this, right? Right.

[00:07:28]I mean, depends on what you mean by the scientific route, but we we see that science has explained a lot in this world and has explained how planets got here, how life evolved, stuff like that.

[00:07:38]So, chances are it's a good thing to rely on to make decisions on.

[00:07:43]Okay. Um so uh my my thing about it is this, even if we take the scientific route and we believe that that somehow some Well, I mean, I'm not going to knock it. Like I said, I don't like to knock things. But if there was some kind of explosion that created the planets or some kind of the who created it? There ultimately has to be some >> creator. No, why? Because I mean, things just don't appear. Science has never Science has never explained something just appearing from nowhere.

[00:08:15]>> But what about the creator himself? The creator himself.

[00:08:19]>> If things don't appear from nowhere, where'd the creator come from?

[00:08:21]>> See, but you can't look at the creator as a thing because creator is obviously more than a thing. If Well, maybe the universe is more than a thing. Well, maybe I mean If the universe is more than a thing, then it's off the hook for having to have been created just like your god is. And so the And so what you're what you do when you bring in a god to explain it is you violate a principle called a This is a rational principle called Occam's razor, which says if uh that if you don't make up additional details to put into your explanation that aren't needed. And if you Once you've admitted that there can be something that doesn't have a an origin, right? That that didn't get created.

[00:09:05]>> Right. Once you admitted that there can be such such a a something Mhm. then there's no reason that the universe can't be that something.

[00:09:13]You don't have to put a god in there.

[00:09:15]Putting a god in is just an extra step that's completely unnecessary. True.

[00:09:20]True.

[00:09:20]>> you go.

[00:09:21]Uh well, this is this is my my uh thing about it is okay, even if that that is true, then uh w- I mean, where does the power even looking at science? Science says that sleep is a stage of death. Science says that. What?

[00:09:37]>> what? Sleep is a stage of death. It's like one of the early stages of death.

[00:09:40]When you're sleeping, that's it that is a stage of death. It's not death, but >> I'm I'm not familiar with this and I need some, you know, some, you know, citation from scientific literature to Um well, look at the Look at the uh uh >> Okay. Um but okay. Now, assuming that I'm true for the conversation's sake, >> Sure. I'm just saying.

[00:09:59]>> Um Okay, then where does if this stage of death, do you believe we have the power to to wake from a death?

[00:10:07]Do you believe that we have the power to to raise the dead by a shake? Not yet, but medical science is coming along.

[00:10:15]>> [laughter] >> Nice. Yeah, I mean, again, I am I am very hopeful that medical science will solve this annoying aging and dying problem that that we're facing that evolution has foisted on us.

[00:10:30]Well, I mean, okay, I'm sure, you know, cuz most people that don't believe in God have a thorough knowledge of the word, the Bible.

[00:10:37]Most of them do. I mean, cuz I've ran into people who don't believe in God, but they can tell me more scriptures than I know as one of his closest followers, you know, or you know, a minister. Okay. So, um have if you looked at the word, do you read the book of Revelations, which I'm sure you probably get this a lot.

[00:10:53]>> I have read bits of the Bible, including bits of that. Oh, really?

[00:10:57]>> I I can't I will not claim to have read the whole thing straight through.

[00:11:00]I haven't.

[00:11:00]>> Well, I mean, I give this to you as an assignment. You don't have to accept This is an assignment.

[00:11:06]>> [laughter] >> Okay, I'm saying Hold it. Let me get my pen.

[00:11:09]Go on.

[00:11:10]Um the book of Revelations, read it in its entirety.

[00:11:14]The entire book of Revelations, yeah.

[00:11:17]And what do I do? Because when when you read it, you realize that it really summarizes the modern day. Ah. Can I Can I uh prophecy.

[00:11:29]Ooh, boy, I wish I had these handy. Uh there are some websites out there that boy, I don't have the URLs. Can you if you watch the next show, I will make sure they have this information for you.

[00:11:41]There are websites where back around 1998-99 when the millennium was about to happen and there were a lot of claims that the rapture was going to be upon us, Jesus was going to return because it was a big scary round number.

[00:11:58]Right?

[00:11:59]There were a lot of websites like that cataloged all these claims and like noted when the date that was predicted that oh, it's going to be February 14th, 2000 is going to be the end.

[00:12:12]And when that day would come and that person who made the claim was wrong chalk it off chalk it off. Well, there's one really great site that went backward. They went into historical references, right? People have been predicting the end times are near.

[00:12:28]Well, since Jesus himself who told his disciples that the ones standing right there were not going to be we're not going to die before it was all finished, okay?

[00:12:40]Uh well, that don't ask me to quote it exactly. It's you will not taste death before the kingdom arrives. I something something like that. It's it's pretty clear to us.

[00:12:50]You guys can spin it however you like.

[00:12:52]It's pretty clear to us Jesus thought the world was going to end within the lifetimes of the disciples.

[00:12:58]But but even setting aside Jesus, right?

[00:13:01]Going in in the like in the year 120, there were people predicting it was the end, right? In the year when the year 1000 was rolling around, there were people predicting that was going to be the end. All through history, people have looked at the book of Revelations in particular and said, "Ooh, this vague thing that it says here in the book of Revelations, this is hinting at this is showing this is just like the thing that's happening now. And they've been wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong for 2,000 years. You say the vague and actually gets very detailed. No, no, no. I I know enough about the claims in the Book of Revelation.

[00:13:40]>> we've seen, you know, a bit >> What about the like four-headed dragon thing in there? I mean, there there's Well, what about the four-headed dragon?

[00:13:47]I I don't understand what you want to know about it.

[00:13:50]Where is there going to be a four-headed dragon or is that a metaphor for something? If it's a metaphor for something If it's not literally going to be a four-headed dragon, you know, bashing its way through cities like Godzilla through Tokyo, if there's not really going to be a four-headed dragon, then it's a metaphor and that means it's vague. It means it's subject to interpretation. Right, but >> Right? Yes, but there is.

[00:14:11]>> the kind of stuff that all through history people have been reading in the Book of Revelations But that's not a metaphor. and leaping to It's not a metaphor. Then what is it?

[00:14:18]>> going to be a scaly four-headed dragon that can, you know, tromp around. I mean, as my personal you ask me as a person and my personal belief is that as the word says it, it will happen. Oh, wow. Wow, cuz that's going to be cool.

[00:14:32]>> [laughter] >> No, no, but this is the thing this is why this is why I say that this is why I say that that's a metaphor. That's not a metaphor. Okay, all right, man.

[00:14:42]When? I mean, I don't In the next how many years?

[00:14:45]>> I don't know that. I'm I'm not a prophet. Come on, you're you're saying the Book of Revelations is showing that that talks [clears throat] about the current times what? In within 100 years?

[00:14:54]>> it is the thing about it is the Bible also tells us that the Bible also tells us that even it says my logic is not your logic. My ways are not your ways.

[00:15:02]In fact, they're much higher than your ways. This I'm paraphrasing, but that's the I'm not buying that. I'm not buying that. I'm not if it doesn't make sense to me.

[00:15:07]>> if I were to give you a prediction, that would be from my mind. Sure, but I'm not asking for a date. Yeah, I'm not >> asking for a date. You know what? Here's how I >> giving you a little leeway here.

[00:15:16]>> Let me phrase the question this way, right?

[00:15:18]You have You got to have some idea for yourself, right? If the Book of Revelations is talking about our times now, right? You've got to have some idea in your head.

[00:15:31]Boy, you know, this must mean that it's all going to you know that that that Jesus going to return within X amount of time, whether it's 10 years, 100 years, there's got to be some number. I I honestly don't have a number in my head.

[00:15:46]>> Well, then why are you bringing up the Book of Revelations if you don't think it's likely that it's going to occur even within 100 years?

[00:15:54]>> I just said I don't have a >> it is likely that it'll happen within 100 years? I I'm not saying. I'm I'm not going to take a stand on that point on that the number.

[00:16:02]>> That's the thing cuz that's another thing that I learned reading these historical accounts of claims of the of the end times that failed. Mhm. The people that claimed the end times were upon us when the date that they claimed it was going to happen passed, they never give up the religion. Never, never, never. They never take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror and said and say, "I've been an idiot.

[00:16:26]I've been believing this stuff that it was all going to happen real soon and then when it didn't happen real soon, you know, I just kept on believing it."

[00:16:34]>> You believe there's no natural You believe that there there's no supernatural being. Right. You believe that. We do not believe that there are any supernatural >> out on a limb. I believe there's no supernatural beings.

[00:16:45]>> Okay. You believe Okay.

[00:16:46]>> Anything you can show me actually exists, I'm going to say it's natural. I mean, okay. Well, my thing about it is this. If there's no supernatural being Yeah. which I'm sure you get this argument all the time, but if there's nothing after in the afterlife, if there's nothing there, If we just die. Right.

[00:17:05]Yeah. Why not? I mean, because you're taking a gamble whether you think it's a gamble or not.

[00:17:11]Oh. You're taking a gamble. You're talking about Pascal's Wager. Are you familiar with that term? Uh no, sir.

[00:17:18]Okay. The idea that Pascal was a mathematician Mhm. and Christian who came up with a a relatively famous argument in favor of Christianity called Pascal's Wager. Mhm. He basically graphs out Right. There's two possibilities.

[00:17:33]There is a god or there isn't a god. And then there's two choices. You believe in him or you don't believe in him. Mhm.

[00:17:39]And he showed that mathematically you're better off going ahead and believing that there is one hoping for the big prize of eternal life.

[00:17:49]Right?

[00:17:50]>> Mhm. The problem is Pascal's Wager doesn't work because there's thousands of different gods that people have claimed over the course of human history. Mhm.

[00:18:05]There's no particular reason to assume that the only one you got to think about is the Christian god.

[00:18:12]No reason at all.

[00:18:13]So I even if I I I What? And not to cut you off. I'm sorry, but Yeah. Um on what you just said, that all the gods that all the other gods that exist.

[00:18:25]No, that people have claimed. Right.

[00:18:26]Right. Did you say that people claimed to have existed or do exist? Yeah.

[00:18:33]Okay.

[00:18:34]If you take up that belief and or you take it up and say I'm going to wager.

[00:18:38]So I'm going to do Pascal's Wager as you said, you know, and I'm going to take one. Now you have to go into a field as a human mind we have to know, you know what I'm saying? We have to see before we believe. We have to, you know, get a mental logic before we ever just go out on a limb.

[00:18:54]>> Well, you know, I wish that was true, but clearly since like over a third of the earth's population believes in Christianity, clearly a vast majority of people are able to go ahead and believe without any evidence at all. Well, I mean that's true. I'm sure that that that's true.

[00:19:09]>> you know, I wish that we were all really rational and careful about what we do.

[00:19:13]>> okay, but looking at you now, looking at you as a person, I can understand that you like knowledge, you know what I'm saying? That you like you know what I'm >> You don't like knowledge?

[00:19:23]>> No, no, I mean that that you like >> Why are we Why are we limiting this to me? Do you like knowledge or don't you?

[00:19:28]Yeah, I like knowledge.

[00:19:28]>> Okay. See, but I I mean I can't do no music >> better to actually believe Okay, well looking at me, looking at me. All right.

[00:19:36]Okay, if I'm going to do this, if I was in your position, you know, I was in a atheist and I don't believe in God, but I'm going to do Pascal's Wager and I'm going to take up one. I'm going to go research all of the gods and if you research all of them and look at all of their books, the Quran, the Bible and all of them Yeah. you'll find out that the only one even close to our logic, you know, the close to making sense to us is the God that I serve, God.

[00:20:02]No, and and seriously because Didn't you start this by saying you're a you're a minister? Huh? Didn't you start this by saying you're a minister or is that the last caller? No. Are you a minister? I'm a minister. You're a minister. Okay.

[00:20:13]Isn't that your job to say stuff like that? I'm not taking your word for it.

[00:20:16]That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying, the research. If you actually go in and research >> Yeah. like, you know, Buddha. Buddha was I mean Buddha makes way more sense to me than Christianity. Buddhism makes way way more sense. Excellent. Buddha was a guy sitting under a tree. Uh-huh. He He thought carefully about stuff. Uh-huh.

[00:20:36]Right? It was not um It was not a guy who claimed to be the son of God. He was a guy. Now, I know that human beings exist. I don't know that any sons of gods exist. So, right there off the bat, I'm way more likely to believe that there even was a Buddha in the first place than I am likely to believe that there was a Jesus.

[00:20:59]I mean of course Buddha existed. We I mean according to history, he existed, but they they reference him as a god.

[00:21:08]Actually, no, they don't.

[00:21:10]I've done a little bit of research on this. Some Buddhists do something like that, yeah.

[00:21:15]But a lot of them don't. And his original his original teachings were nothing like that.

[00:21:20]His original teachings, he was just a guy with some advice.

[00:21:24]Okay, well, looking at Well, then really then once you take that angle, the only god that exists is this one because we call him god, Muslims call him Allah, which is Now now I'm not buying that either.

[00:21:37]Um it's it's certainly true that that there are historical branchings between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, right?

[00:21:46]But not between Christianity and the worship of the Norse gods, the Norse pantheon of of Odin, Thor, and and those guys. And there are still worshipers of those guys if you go to Scandinavia.

[00:22:00]And probably here in the US, too. I'm sure you can find some, but they exist.

[00:22:05]There are people who still believe that stuff.

[00:22:07]Just cuz there are, you know, I think that this is an unfair argument that Christians make a lot. They they make this this argument, "Oh, only Christianity makes the most sense." You know, it's easy to say something like that when you're in our culture where your religion that you're talking about and claiming that's the only one that makes sense is the most common religion in our culture and everybody's used to it. You know, in countries where they believe that the god is this like dog-headed jackal man, I'm making this stuff up. I don't know that there's any such place. But there's places out there with gods that are wacky, right? Weird wacky gods like that. You know, those gods make more sense to those people than your god does to them. Why? Not because your god because their god really makes more sense or your god really makes less sense cuz they're more used to it. That's from the culture they grew up in.

[00:22:55]And you know, and in our culture, we're used to hearing about Jesus.

[00:22:59]But there's a a of wacky stuff in the Bible, you know? There's There's There's um you know, talking snakes and all this other stuff. You're telling me there's going to be a four-headed dragon rampaging around >> no, I did not say that. Was that the last guy? I'm sorry.

[00:23:13]>> No, that that was me. I said that that that that I'm four-headed >> it's not a metaphor. You're saying it's literal. There's There's literally going to be a four-headed dragon. Isn't that what you said?

[00:23:20]>> No, dragon beast. Okay, beast. A four-headed beast. You're telling me there's literally going going to be a four-headed beast rampaging around.

[00:23:27]Okay, well, now if you want to go back to something like that, again, look at herpetology today.

[00:23:33]Multicephalism is very, very common in reptiles. Having a two-headed snake pretty common.

[00:23:39]>> So, if you just want to go down to a four-headed snake, [laughter] they're probably been about there for the last 5 million years.

[00:23:45]>> what else? I've heard the argument that only Christianity can be a source of like morality and rules of right and wrong or that that only Christianity can can make people happy. Not true. Okay, good. I'm glad that I'm glad you don't think cuz that that strikes me as the same kind of argument. It's like everybody's used to Christianity, so it seems more natural when you come to people in our culture and say things like that about Christianity. It seems like, "Well, yeah, you know, but that boy, that whole Allah thing seems really out there." But that's only because I wasn't raised in Arabia.

[00:24:17]>> Allah is God.

[00:24:20]Okay, well, was that Okay, fine.

[00:24:23]The the jackal-headed creature thing that they have in some little country. I mean, I've never I have no experience with that. I've got no familiarity with that. So, if you toss, you know, the Christian God and that God in front of me, one of them's going to seem more um understandable. But only because of the culture. That's not because the arguments for them make any more sense.

[00:24:45]>> you're obviously not biased to the to the to our surroundings. You're obviously not biased to them. They don't matter to you.

[00:24:53]No, because I'm saying if if Christianity is more comfortable to us to believe or that it's just a religion that a lot of us just like to take because it's normal. Yeah. And you're not Christian, obviously you're not affected. Oh, I am. Oh, no, sure I am.

[00:25:08]No, I mean it doesn't affect you to the point where you feel like you have to believe it.

[00:25:11]>> The The only difference is I've recognized it for what it is.

[00:25:13]>> Okay. Now, this is why I say this because of your arguments and and and and you know what I'm saying? I really enjoyed talking this, but I'm going to end the conversation like this.

[00:25:22]>> Yeah, I think Ashley would probably like his show back, too.

[00:25:24]>> [laughter] >> Uh I um I actually I encourage you Uh-huh.

[00:25:30]>> to um if you're going to do shows like this and you're going to you know, promote atheism and and things like this and try to reach people and and show them in your as in your perspective what Christianity really is or what, you know, believing in supernatural being really is. If you're going to expose it for what it is, I encourage you to do it out of knowledge. I encourage you to get a full understanding of it before you do. What do you think we have? I understand. The book that you have on your desk, I encourage you to actually read it a lot.

[00:25:59]You know what I'm saying? I I I mean I'm not saying like you don't read it. I'm just saying I encourage you to to to, you know what I'm saying? To look at it at and its entirety and like actually try to understand it. You know what I'm saying? Even if >> Okay. And and because when you do that, you know what I'm saying? That's like a history teacher teaching Yeah, but the hold on. Hold on.

[00:26:18]Hold on.

[00:26:19]You know what it would prove if I came back on the show next month cuz I'm only on once a month. If I came back on the show next month and said, "I read this book. I sat down. I read it all the way through between then and now and I've decided now I believe in the Christian God." You know what that would mean?

[00:26:36]What >> In a in in an ultimate sense of like proving anything, it would mean nothing.

[00:26:42]Not anything. Uh-huh. Just because a just because somebody reads a book and then they believe something different doesn't prove anything. I mean but I'm not saying I'm not pushing Christianity on you is what I'm saying.

[00:26:55]I'm not for I'm not going to try to make you be a Christian or try to force you to look at Christianity Well then what's the point of reading it?

[00:27:04]Like I said earlier, I don't knock things until I have a full understanding of them.

[00:27:11]I have a full understanding of Christianity. I was raised a Christian.

[00:27:16]I spent I don't know how many years 43. Well an adult.

[00:27:21]I understood what it was I was being asked to understand. I have a full understanding of Christianity.

[00:27:29]I have No, no, no, no, no. There is a lot more to it. We have been reading about this stuff for years. Is there something that somebody could understand your religion and still not buy it? True. True. I understand your religion and I don't buy it.

[00:27:41]And I find it insulting that you're that I do find it insulting that you think you think that the only reason I don't agree to be a Christian is because I haven't read your holy book enough. No, no, but you're not understanding what I'm saying. That is not I know.

[00:27:59]What what is what your point is and let me just rephrase here just to make sure I'm I'm right here is if we're going to be on TV saying that Christianity is wrong and you know it's got bad things in it, we should read the Bible to at least know the positions.

[00:28:13]Is that correct?

[00:28:14]Come again?

[00:28:16]Okay. [laughter] If we're going to be on TV saying Christianity is wrong, we should read the Bible to at least know the positions. Right. Okay.

[00:28:24]The point there is there are other ways to understand the positions than simply reading the Bible. The Bible is a very convoluted way to get to it. Now reading it is important. I will grant you that.

[00:28:35]Actually going back to it and you know looking at certain points of it, very helpful, very useful. No doubt about it.

[00:28:41]However, there's a lot of other problems with it which don't go which aren't directly, you know, it's not in John's 3:29 or something like that, that point is bad or something like that. It's that the the whole underpinnings, that there is some omniscient, you know, universe-creating deity out there who created man, got all pissed off at us for whatever reason, sent his son down, made us kill his son so that he could then forgive us for doing the bad things which he knew we were we were going to do in the first place. Yeah, that makes no sense.

[00:29:14]>> are simply logical and philosophical and moral problems with this.

[00:29:19]>> the the thing that you're not understanding is is according to my belief, God his thoughts are higher than because it makes no sense to you guys it doesn't mean it didn't make sense.

[00:29:27]>> then basically we have no way to comprehend No no no. Okay.

[00:29:31]>> I object to the very to the very concept that we have to set aside logic, logic as we understand it because you claim, you and people like you, claim that there's some better that's beyond us and that makes it true even if it makes no sense to us. That's I can't believe you have the audacity to make a claim like that. How dare you tell human beings to believe your religion because there's some other better logic that they can't grasp. How dare you?

[00:30:08]>> Until you can present How dare you trick and lie to people like that?

[00:30:12]>> Until you can present >> Until you can present some other form of logic and some better ways of looking at the world and some better ideas of working with facts, then we have no reason to believe. We have tools of logic and morality and all that kind of stuff to go along with it that make a lot of really good sense.

[00:30:30]Until we have until someone else presents a different way of looking at it that works better other than just saying, "It works better, trust me."

[00:30:40]We're going to stick with what we got.

[00:30:41]Yeah, mean I understand And by the way, if there's this higher logic that's beyond us, it's beyond you, too, right?

[00:30:47]>> Right. Well, if it's beyond you, too, how do you even know that it exists?

[00:30:53]See, because I have a thing called faith. Ah.

[00:30:56]Faith.

[00:30:57]That's that just going ahead and believing even though it makes no sense, right?

[00:31:02]>> but but you know, I understand I did not >> No, I completely understand faith. Faith is believing even though it doesn't really make any sense.

[00:31:10]>> That's in your perspective.

[00:31:12]>> What And And now we're back to this special logic, this special secret logic that we can't personally experience?

[00:31:19]>> your idea of faith?

[00:31:20]>> makes sense or it doesn't, sir. Yeah.

[00:31:22]What is your idea of faith then? If it's not just believing, you know, despite lack of evidence, what is your definition of faith, I guess?

[00:31:31]My definition of faith is is Well, according to the Bible, faith is evidence.

[00:31:38]No. Faith is not evidence. Now, the bi- Bible may say that. Faith is not evidence. Just believing isn't evidence of anything. Evidence is something I can show you I can introduce you to a man down at the sanitarium who believes he is Napoleon, and he's not Napoleon.

[00:31:55]Believing doesn't make it so. Okay, but uh So, if that's what faith is, What?

[00:32:01]you're very deluded. Okay, well, I mean, this is this is what I'm This This is We're at the core of the issue here now, right? This is the core of the issue.

[00:32:11]This is what is wrong and sick and twisted about religion in general and in our society, Christianity in particular.

[00:32:19]This whole idea that we should that that if you can get yourself to believe that's proof that it's true, that's nonsense. Just because you can get yourself to believe something doesn't prove a thing. You know what proves things? Actual evidence. Evidence you can look at, show to others, interpret, uh test, and show that it comes out the same way next time. What science does. That's evidence and proof.

[00:32:43]Faith is nothing like that. Faith is just believing cuz you decided you're going to. Right. I made the decision.

[00:32:50]And >> Yeah. Yeah. Whoever else >> You of course have the a complete freedom to believe whatever you want.

[00:32:56]>> Right. And so you're saying that it's sick and twisted that I that >> I I think it's sick and twisted that you're in the business of telling other people to do the same. I think that's sick and twisted.

[00:33:06]>> Why?

[00:33:07]They have a lot >> Because No, no, wait. According to you, remember we're all these these smart people and we all have logic. Yeah. So if they think with the logic, they'll come up with the reasons that it's not worth believing in. So why can't I talk about it? Yeah. Your job as a minister is to get people >> you're speaking out of ignorance. I know because >> Your job as a minister is to get people to set aside their logic, like you have told us to do, to set aside their grasp of reality and believe what you tell them. I told you so you could get a grasp of it. You see because if I stood here and I told you to do 30 things and you know if I and I I said I was Catholic and I told you to say 40 Rose Mary's and you're forgiven, that would be pushing. I said to read for yourself and get an understanding so that you can distinguish whether it's worth your time or not.

[00:33:56]>> when you explain to you that there was enough stuff There was You explain to you there was enough stuff about Christianity to show us that to show any rational person to show any rational person that it's a load of nonsense. Even Even [laughter] without reading the book.

[00:34:11]>> going off of what you said, this is why I said to read the Bible because going off of what you said, if I ever have an issue with anything, the first thing I want to do is go to the core of the issue. If you're finding out things about Christianity, the first thing you should do is go to the core of Christianity. Go to the Bible.

[00:34:29]>> Yeah. Get a full understanding of the the the root of Christianity. Get a full understanding of what we understand.

[00:34:37]I would have an answer surrounding Christianity.

[00:34:42]If you're going to come back to me and tell me I don't, then I must not understand it because I don't agree with you. Then I'm going to tell you you're being insulting. We have read I studied long enough to understand what it was I was being taught. Exactly. No, no, no.

[00:34:55]We we understand the culture, we understand the the beliefs and the ideas and, you know, how things work in in the Christian worldview and and and the stories behind it and stuff like that.

[00:35:05]We understand all of that. And my point my point is and my objection my objection to what you do, sir, for a living is that it is your job to get people to set aside their own grasp of reality.

[00:35:17]You think it's limited, right? You think there's something better. I don't. I think that a person's understanding of reality is as good as it's going to get.

[00:35:24]So, if if it's as good as it's going to get, then why does it differ so much? I You're asking them to set that aside and believe what your religion teaches.

[00:35:35]Not because of anything you can actually explain. The Bible says, "Taste and see." No, I I I do want to get this point across. Because you don't believe in God. You don't believe in God. And because you don't, if you taste and see See, because the only thing that can come of that of you tasting and seeing, if you don't believe in God, is a new level. It's something God proving to you that I exist. That's the only thing that can come of that.

[00:35:56]>> I think I explained earlier that if I had a mystical experience, my first reaction would be that I was No, I didn't say mystical experience. I said God it's proving that he exists. God can do that in more ways than appearing.

[00:36:09]No, sorry, not to me. I happen to know that the way you prove something is by actually, you know, demonstrating that it exists. Not by innuendo, not by hints, certainly not by setting aside your own Okay, look at this. Look at this. Look at this. This is why I say there's a logic that we don't understand. You cut me off every time I try to make that point.

[00:36:29]Say it again.

[00:36:30]Your job as a minister is to get people to set aside their own grasp of reality and believe what your religion teaches, not because of anything you can really explain, but because of faith. Because you tell them if they can just convince themselves that it's true, then that's proof that it's true. And I think that's I think that's terrible.

[00:36:50]I think that is a terrible thing to do for a living. I mean that that's the first This is my thing. Okay, if if reality is reality, right? If your mind grasp it as reality, it's reality, right? If you look at something >> No. No. No, like that desk that your arms What about that guy down at the sanitarium? He thinks he's Napoleon. Is he? No.

[00:37:11]>> But that's his reality. If he thinks it's in his reality He thinks he's Napoleon. Is he Napoleon? Not to us, but to him he's Napoleon.

[00:37:18]And that's And that's reality then? No, I'm sorry.

[00:37:21]Reality is But he choose to accept a different reality. No.

[00:37:26]No. No. No. People can get a little delusional. There's one reality where stuff actually happens. Okay. We're We're going to go on now.

[00:37:34]>> [laughter] >> Going to go on to the next call. We thank you for calling, but in our eyes reality is something objective and outside of your own brain. And so what I see as reality, what you see as reality, and what the guy in the sanitarium sees as reality, while they may be You may be seeing different things, there is an objective one out there. Yeah. Reality is that it doesn't matter.

[00:37:55]>> Regardless of what your opinion of it is. That's what reality is. So, okay.

[00:37:59]Well, listen. I just hope that you guys are right because if you're not, you're going to face a punishment. Okay.

[00:38:04]Punishment. Let's not even go there.

[00:38:06]Let's And leave with the with the threat of eternal torment.

[00:38:11]>> I didn't say that. No, I I said I said Listen. Hang on.

[00:38:15][email protected].

[00:38:17]If you got more points, send them there.

[00:38:19]We'll respond to them online. We're going to get on and take the calls.

[00:38:23]Do you have to set aside grasp of reality.

[00:38:26]Not only do you have to set aside your own reasoning faculties and believe something he can't prove just because if he can convince you that if you can convince yourself that it's true it must be. Not only that, but if you don't, then you get to be tortured for eternity. There's the kicker. Okay. Now, can I have my pen back? Yeah.

[00:38:43]And we're getting you the decaf next week.

[00:38:45]Um Last week, um in case you forgot about it or weren't here, we had a nice long call um from a minister and uh had some information on that. Uh it was a nice long call. Jeff um took him on and basically hog-tied him.

[00:39:06]Um The two things that we had though, one was uh he was bringing up that Revelations it shows that there's so many things that are going on right now that ties up you can match them all to what's going on today and and it's and the apoc- and um Revelations is not filled with metaphors. It's it's it's says it explicitly what's going to happen.

[00:39:29]Um two things. One, there is a website. A brief history of the apocalypse.

[00:39:36]Um people have been reading over Revelations and other means of trying to figure out the end times for centuries and uh a brief history of the apocalypse uh goes over some of those. It's uh like I say, it's called brief history of the apocalypse. The website is just uh the first letter of that, a b h o t a dot info.

[00:39:58]Brief history of the apocalypse.info.

[00:40:02]Um and the first one and it's got hundreds on the site, but the first one starts at around 280 BC was the predicted time that the world was going to go poof. Um and then it's got another one for 634 BC, 389 BC, the first century, second century, and uh it goes all the way up until today and including some that are supposedly happening soon, and um some that are happening in the future.

[00:40:27]So, now soon means pretty much anything whatever they say. Somebody said it was soon and that was in the 1950s.

[00:40:34]So, take whatever you want for a definition of that.

[00:40:38]Uh also, again, the he was saying that uh Revelation should be taken literally.

[00:40:44]It's not a metaphor, it's not uh you know uh anything like that. If it says it, that's what's going to happen. So, and we're talking about the four-headed beast that was going to come back and rampage cities. Well, it isn't four, it's actually seven-headed beast. So, um so our caller, again, who was a minister could have been brushed up on that a little bit better, but we we missed that also, so. So, anyway, keep your eyes peeled on CNN for the seven-headed beast which will be rampaging around somewhere soon.